Old Age/New Age Discipline

[km gresham]

Some chatter on another thread made me think of how children used to be disciplined and the way they are (or aren't) now.

I was raised, as were others, when personal responsibility was paramount. Misbehaving at school meant trouble at school and worse at home.

My story was never believed automatically "the teacher doesn't like me" etc. carried no weight with my parents.

We've raised our children the same way. If I get a sad story about the teacher being unfairly harsh, my first question is "what did you do to make her mad?" (I know my little angels very well ;) )

Anyway, there are scores of kids who have no fear of the teacher, their parents, even the police and I've seen many parents jump to their child's defense without bothering to determine if Johnny might be wrong. "Personality conflicts" between teacher and child aren't a valid excuse either. The teacher's job isn't to like a child, it's to teach them. Kids have to learn to get along with all kinds of people - liking them is not required to facilitate getting along and being civil and respectful. smile.gif

I'm bewildered by the attitude that "nobody is gonna correct my child." Why would a parent not want their child's misbehavior corrected? A well behaved child is liked by everyone which makes the child's life pleasant and his experiences with others positive. Why would any parent not desire this? :confused:

[ishmael]

Pet Peeve! Not having children I shouldn't comment, but I think manners and attitude amongst many young'uns I've observed are deplorable.

From the kids allowed to run riot in restaurants to the 'tude' displayed by the teenager tending the convenience store counter, seems everywhere you look there's evidence of a lack of parental discipline and instruction.

One reason I moved to Bangor is that I found a marked difference in such here. I don't know why. Old-fashioned small town values still fairly strong here would be my guess.

So what's the reason Karen? Both parents feeling the need to work so they can spend the weekend buying needless crap? Dr. Spock?

I know I wouldn't have got away with such behavior for a minute.

[ 05-23-2003, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[km gresham]

And see how well you turned out! :D

[ishmael]

Sterling character. ;)

[km gresham]

no doubt :D

[Scott Rosen]

What a bunch of old fahts.

You must've lost a few trillion brain cells if you don't remember what kind of trouble and embarasment you caused your parents when you were a kid.

On the other hand, I find myself teaching basic table manners to many of my kids' friends.

[km gresham]

Scott, right after I caused trouble and embarrassed my parents, they caused my fanny to glow ;)

[ishmael]

Reading a little tongue in cheek Scott. I'm not talking about the usual mischief kids have always engaged in. It's something more basic, and I think it comes down to manners, table and otherwise.

The last time I vividly remember being really affronted by lax parenting was when eating lunch at a Korean restaurant in Brattleboro VT. A family of four was seated at a table down a few. The parents, young neo-hippies, allowed their two children, maybe four and six, to take over the place. Running, screaming, coming up and damn near reaching onto our plates to grab food. Any admonition by the parents was so 'gentle' as to be non-existent.

Anecdotal. Brattleboro. :rolleyes:

I guess I am an old faht. smile.gif

[ 05-23-2003, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[doorstop]

My kids are FAR from perfect, just like their parents but it was nice to have their behaviour in restaurants complimented. "What a wonderful job you have done!".... bullchip!.... what a wonderful job the kids have done!!!
Marg and I always figured that to give the kids the advantage of self discipline and manners was to their advantage.... not ours!!!!

[Scott Rosen]

Originally posted by doorstop:
Marg and I always figured that to give the kids the advantage of self discipline and manners was to their advantage.... not ours!!!!Bravo!! That's the sentiment of truly responsible parents.

[Gresham CA]

In my opinion (and it's only MY opinion) I think that some parents don't want to exersise the authority that they assumed when they made a baby. I've seen it over and over again at the sail club and in public places. And it's mostly with the young boys. "Now Johnny please don't do that. I asked you not to do that. Please stop that"

I was helping load a sailboat a couple of weeks back that the man that owned it had his two young boys with him. They were maybe 3.5 and 5 years old. They were up and running around under our feet and under the trailer( this was a 25' sailboat) and all I heard him do was beg for them to listen to him. I finally told them both to sit over on some R/R tie out of the way, and I did it with somw authority in my voice and they did it. You could have knocked their dad over with a feather. He said that they don't mind him that way and I told him that's because he doesn't demand it. He begs for it.

[ 05-23-2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Gresham CA ]

[martin schulz]

The problem nowadays with kids is that they tend to have parents who at some point of time decided they desperately want a child.

My Ex did her dissertation (she studied nutrition science) about malnutrition and alimentation problems of childern. Part of her paper was about how families evolve.
Until 1950 a family with 3 or more kids was the common thing. Before that (factoring out the war) even more kids were normal. and, what makes the real difference, children were just an ordinary part of the family, consisting also of grandparents and sometimes servants.
The important difference is that children weren't born because "they give live a meaning", or because they "are the fulfillment of a married life", or because they are the "couples love manifested". - Nope - they were there because it was regarded a normal part of existence to get childern - and usually they had to work and were mostly treated like servants.

Not that I think children should be treated like servants, but this current children-hysteria seems also a bit deranged. Imagine a still innocent child being "brought" in this world already with a big lists of important tasks to do, such as:
1. give each parents life a meaning
2. solve major problems in the parents relationship towards each other
3. be a clone-like copy of dad or mum and carry traits of the in the future when they are dead
4. do everything better than the parents did
5...

If parents just let their children be what they are and treat them as nothing special (within limits, of course) and realise that their kids are NOT THE person the world has been waiting for - things would be much easier nowadays.

[ 05-23-2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: martin schulz ]

[km gresham]

My sister has the perfect name for those parents - "baby beggars".

Believe me, our boys yammer and carp plenty at home - at each other, but when they go out in public it's "Yes, sir" and "Yes, Maam" and please and thank you and nice to meet you.

And, Saints be praised, last night one of them actually said "thank you" to his BROTHER! Hope springs eternal in the hearts of their weary parents :D

Martin, we do seem to have become a society of child worshipers. People used to have kids to have help workin' the farm. Now they have 'em to have someone to be the center of their universe. They ruin perfectly good offspring that way :rolleyes:

[ 05-23-2003, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

[Sam F]

Manners? I wonder how much of it's obvious lack today has to do with age segregation? Most kids spend very little time with older adults (other than a teacher-student ersatz relationship)
As a result they tend to emulate the norms of their peers and teenagers left to their own devices create “norms” are hardly normal. In contrast, home taught kids spent significantly more time with adults than do government schooled children and seem to pick up civilizing behavior by osmosis if nothing else.

My wife related the following observation from a few weeks ago that illustrates the point.
She takes two of our children to soccer practice a couple of times a week. (Yeah I kid her about being a soccer mom too! smile.gif ) The salient point is that this league is composed entirely of homeschooled kids. The group represents a fairly broad spectrum of kids; some Catholic, some Protestant and a sprinkling of secular children take part. This year it has almost always rained off and on during practice so everyone spends time in the picnic shelter when not actually playing. My wife was at one point the only adult in the shelter crowded with teens waiting for the little ones to finish their practice. She realized that after almost an hour waiting, she’d heard absolutely nothing objectionable. There was plenty of kidding and jostling like energetic kids do, but not one foul word and no quarrels or rudeness. We’ve never had such an experience when around so called “normal” teens for any length of time… whether waiting in line at the movies or in the local municipal park, even around girl-scouts, some little darling always lets fly with some objectionable or rude behavior.

Draw your own conclusions…

[ 05-23-2003, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Sam F ]

[km gresham]

When our middlest boy was shopping recently there was another boy close by liberally and loudly using the F word in conversation with a friend. Son #2 noticed a lady nearby and he called the other boy down for his language in the presence of a lady. The woman thanked him and the boy moved off. smile.gif Now, it must be understood that #2 son is 6'-5' 230 lbs and works out regularly. Mouthy boy didn't want to push his luck apparantly ;)

I would hope that were any of my children behaving so badly anyone in the vicinity would correct them. I would be obliged, not angered or offended. smile.gif

[martin schulz]

Hmm - over here a normal "Fussballplatz" (soccer-ground) is the source of foul-language.

The boys playing soccer (mostly boys, of course) start with 4-6 years and grow up with the game listening to a lot of yelling, cursing and argueing from the older ones or even the old-man teams.

But then I enjoyed wathing an unimportant game of two teams from neighbour villages (also not the 1st, but the 2nd team of each village) last week. There were a couple of young boys (16-19) playing soccer with their dad's watching and some old guys (55-65) from either village doing their unpayed referee job. And I thought - wow, actually this is pretty neat having 3 generations together here just to have a friendly game between two villages.

http://www.muenster.org/la-nachwuchs/football1.jpg

[ 05-23-2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: martin schulz ]

[Tar Devil]

We've raised our children the same way. If I get a sad story about the teacher being unfairly harsh, my first question is "what did you do to make her mad?" I also want my kids to understand fairness. If they felt they were unfairly treated, a call was placed to the teacher. In almost every instance the call resulted in our child being disciplined.

Several times, though, we found this wasn't the case. Once my son was busted a letter grade for using "X-mas" in a report even though he was writting a paper on Greek symbols. The teacher didn't even read the entire paper but just fired from the hips with her Southern Baptist, bible-belt attitude. We stood solidly behind our son in this instance. Imagine his dismay had we blindly sided with the teacher?
Another time my son was severely admonished in front of his class by the same teacher for suggesting that Jesus actually wasn't born on December 25 (another parent-teacher meeting that proved uncomfortable for the teacher).

There has been many other times when we met with teachers to thank them for their discipline and discuss additional measures to improve our children's classroom conduct.

You best efforts at discipline, however, can backfire. I consider myself and my wife a good parental team. We've been strict but loving with our kids, they are well behaved and do well in school. The last time, however, I physically disciplined my daughter she went to school angry and decided to speak to the counselor. In the course of their conversation my daughter somewhat embellished the incident, the counselor called Social Services and we had a home visit from a pair of social workers. My daughter was astonished that her little lies caused such a rucus and she has never come close to repeating the incident, but it made for a very uncomfortable time in our household. My daughter learned another important lesson... no visit from Social Services would deter Mom or Dad from their parental responsibilities.

Later,

Phil

[ishmael]

Martin,

Interesting ideas, but I don't think unconscious, narcissistic yearnings by parents are anything new. Few of any generation have been given the genuine mirroring real parenting involves. And it's a spectrum: from the totally self-involved creeps to the genuinely giving, real, parents.

I don't know the roots of the current crop of surly young people. One is tempted to blame it on the largess of riches the West has been surrounded with coupled with a nihilistic social ethic coming out of a century of humanist philosphy in our institutions. But I don't know.

I would say that narcissist parents are still capable of instilling discipline and manners. The child will grow to neurotic adulthood, but at least they'll be polite about it.

[Scott Rosen]

I see lots of bad and low-quality parenting. I'm just not sure it's any worse today than it was 30 years ago.

If I can brag for a moment--my two kids are very well behaved. We gave then discipline and structure early. And we always made sure there were immediate and appropriate consequences for bad behavior. As a result, my wife and I can control them with a simply look of the eye. No shouting, threatening or hitting needed.

As John pointed out, they have learned that all of the discipline has been to their own benefit. It has made their lives better and happier.

They trust us and respect us and they care deeply what we think of them.

It ain't rocket science, but a lot of parents just don't have clue.

[Sam F]

Originally posted by Tar Devil:
[QUOTE] I also want my kids to understand fairness. If they felt they were unfairly treated, a call was placed to the teacher. In almost every instance the call resulted in our child being disciplined. Quite right. Disciplining, or the more accurate term Punishment, with no regard to justice breeds contempt for parental authority.

[km gresham]

Phil, let me be clear - we have always given our children a chance to tell their side of a story smile.gif It just usually works out that their side isn't so good - amazing how the stories change when you say "lets call the teacher and see what she has to say" There's usually no need to call the teacher after that ;)

The boys know they have our full backing if they're treated unfairly, but they better be telling us the whole truth - no shading events or omitting parts that aren't so favorable to them.

It's the greatest privilege in the world to raise children - and the greatest challenge - and no instructions! They hand you that baby and send you on your way and you get to figure it all out as you go :eek:

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Hmmmm Ill chime in here as an only child and a father to an only child.
I grew up raised by a single working mother with very sparatic fatherly discipline. I attended St. Johns Catholic School in The Bronx in the mid 70's. During this time they had both nuns and brothers with a few priest. The brothers some of which I later found out joined the brotherhood to avoid Vietnam were a sadistic bunch. There was plenty of corporal punishment doled out. I was on the receiving end of quite a bit. It hardened my resolve to question authority. I went from a loving little boy to an insolent hard cocky fighting boy. Eventually my mother got married and we moved to the suburbs of NJ. I went to a " normal " High School and proceeded to get into fights with a lot of kids for the first year I had a lot of anger and I was quick with my mouth as I was with my fist. During the period of living alone with my mother I was a latch key kid and had a lot of responsibilities from early on to take care of myself. I had proven my responsible nature and by the time I was 16-17 I was allowed to be treated as an adult in every respect.

In contrast, My daughter is raised in a very loving two parent environment. No spanking, lots of talking things out, lots of explaining cause and effect and trust. We enforce punishments and I do use the Daddy voice on occasions. We explain that we cannot be her friend she has lots of friends but only two parents. She dosnt question authority like I did and I can see she is a bright and warm kid with very few disciplinary problems. She is a leader not a follower and is the social butterfly in her class. When I drop her off the other children run to her. She goes to a progressive Montessori school and will be graduating next month. In September she will attend kindergarten in our little towns k-12 school. I know that 5 is no indication to what she will be like when she is 15 but she is miles away from the wild child I was at her age, and I was raised the OLD FASHION way. It messed me up for a long time.

Edited to add: The Brother / Teachers where WRONG in their abuse. I just remembered an interesting St. John Story. One day we had a brother teach a catechism class that was usually taught by a friendly nun. In the class we had an older student that was making up to get ready for his confirmation so he was much older than us. The boy, as I remember him was a bit slow, possibly mildly retarded. Someone made a joke and the boy laughed very loudly as the brother was teaching. The brother walked over to the boy and not just boxed his ears but slapped him open handed hard across the face. The boy went into a complete rage lifted a chair and smashed it in the brothers face possibly breaking his nose because I never saw so much blood in all my life. Three other brothers came into the room and tried to subdue the boy. But he was animal strong and fought them off with whirlwind of punches and got a couple shots in before they wrestled him to the ground. We never saw the boy again and the brother was less quick with his hands, either he was disciplined or he was just scared we never knew.

Years later I saw a similar scene in a movie and always wondered if the writer of that scene was in my class.

[ 05-23-2003, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[km gresham]

Joe, you weren't raised in the old fashioned way. One of the most important factors of child discipline is that love of the child and the best interest of teaching the child be at the root of any and all discipline. Niether of those factors are usually present in step-families and non family members.

I would say you're raising your daughter in the old fashioned way. Spanking or not is kind of a personal choice - some kids do fine without that swift, brief enforcement of a point. Others become very focused very quickly on the lesson as a result of hand applied to bottom once or twice.

Worked on me and my siblings - our parents were very loving and kind, but we knew when we had crossed that line! My Daddy only had to let us hear him unbuckle his belt and all was well. Funny thing, I can't remember him EVER using it other than to hold up his pants smile.gif

[Ian McColgin]

All generations appear to bemoan the next one as lesser and ill-behaved and all that. Read a little Cato. Get some perspective.

Not that it's any worse, but I notice anecdotally - no true study here and it may just be that hypocracy stands out - that among folk with whom I've spoken personally who berate kids these days and the stricter standards of their parents and who've kids of their own, they seem to have ill behaved kids.

I don't think that corporal punishment works. I think the only thing that works is being true to yourself. Do that any you'll be a fine parent.

There may be such a thing as bad seed but I've not seen it. What I see is that fine people have fine children. And sometimes not-so-fine people have fine children. But fine people don't have not-so-fine children.

The one time corporal punishment makes sense is on a child such as I was. My brothers and sister never got a paddeling, but they actually responded to correction.

I did not. Still don't, for that matter.

Dad eventually ruled that while nothing worked anyway, there had to be some punishment to restore family balance when I was caught for various crimes. A paddeling got it over and done quickly.

Once he did not paddle me.

I'd left a new Ditson saw out in the woods. A week of rain and such went by and Dad returned from a flight to do a little home repair.

No saw.

I denied all, of course.

A day or so later Dad found the saw near the edge of the lawn with evidence of a typically my-style project.

He confronted me.

Told me to assume the angle.

And then said, "Son, go to your room. I'm so angry right now that I'm afraid that I might hurt you."

Mom and Dad brought the same high sense of self-discipline to raising us as they brought to training the horses and dogs. Would that all children were so lucky.

[oldriverat]

Not meaning to change the subject but I want to know what you all think of this.

I have a co-worker of the past 17 years whose kids, both teenage girls now, seem to control all aspects of his life. This guy has used these kids as an excuse for everything you can think of over the years. I mean, he even went home early from work to get them ready for Trick or Treat for gosh sakes. When he cuts his grass he'll come in in the morning and say, "well I got my front yard cut yesterday." The other morning I said, "why can't you ever finish your yard in one evening?"
He said, "because I got kids." He has a small yard too. :rolleyes:

I've seen this kind of behavior out of him for the last 17 years. I mean when these girls are grown, what's he gonna do for an excuse. He's also absolutely miserable in his job but says he has to stay because of the kids.

[km gresham]

Ian smile.gif I know that story - I've heard and said "If I touch him right now, I'll kill him" and the punishment is delayed until heads are clearer!

Here are a couple of good rules - never put a child in a situation that is unsuitable to his age and ability to conform for the length of time required. (I see a LOT of that)

Never have anything so valuable in harms way that an accident will cause more strife than parent or child should have to endure.

When the oldest boy had show and tell in kindergarten I gave him one of Daddy's golf tees. He lost it and was beside himself. I had to explain that I wouldn't give him something to take to school that would cause distress if it were lost or broken. I would never have thought that he would think twice about a golf tee!

[ 05-23-2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

0
Originally posted by Memphis Mike:
Not meaning to change the subject but I want to know what you all think of this.

I have a co-worker of the past 17 years whose kids, both teenage girls now, seem to control all aspects of his life. This guy has used these kids as an excuse for everything you can think of over the years. I mean, he even went home early from work to get them ready for Trick or Treat for gosh sakes. When he cuts his grass he'll come in in the morning and say, "well I got my front yard cut yesterday." The other morning I said, "why can't you ever finish your yard in one evening?"
He said, "because I got kids." He has a small yard too. :rolleyes:

I've seen this kind of behavior out of him for the last 17 years. I mean when these girls are grown, what's he gonna do for an excuse. He's also absolutely miserable in his job but says he has to stay because of the kids.MMike sounds like a severe case of Kid Wiped. I believe the father is passive aggressive and if it wasn't the girls running his life it would be something or someone else's. Essentially he reishes his role as the martyr and I wonder where he will displace it all when his kids are grown and gone.

On the other hand I also have a coworker, a young girl who just turned 17. She has some family issues and some very weird need for attention that is obviously lacking in her paternal upbringing. She craves attention from men but has learned the only way she can get it is to be OVERTLY flirtatious. She is very attractive and unlike 17 year olds when I was 17 , how should we say this very womanly in her appearance. But with an odd child like face. She is always hanging on hugging and caressing all the men at work and proclaims to have crushes on a few, including me. :rolleyes: I told her she is my nightmare that her overt sexuality at such a young age is what would be my ultimate paranoia when my daughter is 10 years older. she has already been intimate with a few older men and seems to be able to stay out till all hours with out parent supervision. She comes on to me and other men very strongly basically flaunting her sexual prowess. I have tried to tell her how much trouble she is going to get into and how men are going to take advantage of her. She seems to understand but then still continues. It is a frightening thing to see. There must be a balance between the parent that's life is ruled by the children and the children that are uncontrollable. Its very scary for me as the father of a daughter to see the these young girls becoming increasingly sexual at such a very young age.

[Scott Rosen]

Gee, Mike. There must be more to that story than you're telling. Lots of fathers, myself included, leave work early to do things with their kids. In fact, I've worked most of my life to have the kind of job that allows me some flexibility so I can do those kinds of things with my kids.

If I had to choose between mowing the lawn and going to one of my kids' ball games, you can be sure I wouldn't be mowing the lawn. The grass would just have to wait.

[oldriverat]

The only other thing I failed to mention was it seems his wife never helps out with anything and it seems he is required to handle all aspects of parenting when I know he is not.

He uses them as an excuse. His own wife told me face to face he is a lazy ass.

[Tar Devil]

Originally posted by Memphis Mike:
The only other thing I failed to mention was it seems his wife never helps out with anything and it seems he is required to handle all aspects of parenting when I know he is not.

He uses them as an excuse. His own wife told me face to face he is a lazy ass.I'd make sure I didn't get between those two.

Poor kids.

Later,

Phil

[Scott Rosen]

Yup. Sounds like a lazy ass to me, too.

[km gresham]

Joe, advice - (I know it's none of my beeswax) avoid this girl like the plague. These are the ones who sooner or later scream harrassment (with lawyer in tow) - usually from men who have been a target ot their flirtatious, inappropriate behavior. Don't ever be alone with her - ever.
She is disturbed. This is one case where it's necessary to be FIRM and tell her you have no interest in her life/troubles/confidences. She can cause you more grief than you want to imagine.

I'll butt out now smile.gif

[oldriverat]

Originally posted by Scott Rosen:
Yup. Sounds like a lazy ass to me, too.You wouldn't know. The fact is.. you know nothing except what I just told you. I've known this family for 17 years. They are close personal friends.

[km gresham]

mm, be fair ;) folks were making an assessment based on information you gave them (and then asked for an assessment). If you wanted a true assessment you'd have given ALL the facts, 'cause since they're close personal friends you surely know more than what you presented smile.gif

[ 05-23-2003, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: km gresham ]

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Karen, trust me I'm well aware of the distance I must keep from her. Let me make this perfectly clear I AM IN NO WAY INTERESTED I have made that mockingly clear to her. I do think that some of my other male coworkers may have taken advantage of the situation. I was only saying that it is shocking how young girls are become more and more brazingly sexual at an every increasingly younger age. It is the things of nightmares for me :eek:

[km gresham]

Some girls, Joe. Most are still just young girls. This one has issues. smile.gif

[Wild Dingo]

mmmmm will I?

oohh okay then! :D Kids... hoons... theyre the blessings of our lives... and okay now thats over on with reality! tongue.gif

next point... there are no perfect kids/hoons... none!! so anyone that thinks their kid is perfect... get a reality check! Kids/hoons will be just that kids... none are saints or angels they are kids/hoons and intrinsic in that being is the ability and wherewithall to be absolute little ****es while covering with the face of an sainted angel whose eyes you cannot disbelieve!! But they are capable.

Okay now... Some hoons seem to be of a type that accepts and learns lessons or correction well and fast... Ive got a couple of these ones and blessings they are indeed

On the other hand some hoons seem to have a problem or some difficulty in accepting that some types of behaviour is wrong and wont be tolerated... here or at school... Ive also got a couple of these and blessings they are not!

Loving hoons is like loving anything else... you have to nurture teach encourage hug AND discipline...

I am not in anyway a perfek dada Im flamin totally imperfek infact! but I teach them one thing at the earliest age and enforce it... and have actually made a wall plaque of it "For every action is a reaction the choice of reaction is yours" A good action always brings a good or positive reaction and a wrong or bad action always brings a negative or not good reaction that they will not enjoy...

I smack my kids and am happy to admit that there is a three smack limit and no smacks till calm... why 3? first one is for the action that caused the discipline Second is to show that there action was unacceptable and the third is to say how disappointed it makes me... yes me... their action has disappointed me and reflect on myself and their mother and they need to know that that is not acceptable. then we walk out of the room and shut the door to them... they stay in the room for an hour then come out and nothing more is said... no discussion regarding the action deed or words that caused a problem is discussed in front of the other children... its none of their business but its enough that they know their sister or brother has done something that is not acceptable.

Boundaries must be made and no broaching allowed...

I now no longer need to snack any of the kids and havent done so or found a need to in over 4 years... last time was one of the girls for swearing at their mother in a fit of anger and frustration over something daughter herself was more than capable of doing but was dictating that her mother must and should have done it for her... she was bustled into her room door slammed shut on her and told "one hour then we will talk" daughter ranted and raved for almost the entire time then I walked through very swifly slapped her face then we sat and talked through why... I walked out and Jo walked in they talked and its after another hour has passed she rejoins the family... and done... that was 4 years ago and she has never stepped over that line since nor even looked like doing so.

Aaron is getting to be a big fella now and is starting to stretch his authority at times and often the "daddy voice" has to bring him back down to earth...

The younger ones are typical cheeky munchkins who can and do overstep the boundaries on occasion... but experience of the elder children has worked to prepare them for the reaction that hasnt been needed other than the occasional voice for some time with them... although Brie is starting to push the limits lately.

School is a source of contention with regards to discipline... which because of some present problems with Aarons school principal just now and their insistant belief that an adult would not have a problem with a kid as they are adults and the kid is a kid so the adult must be right... I dont wish to go into just now till Ive confronted both so called adults at the school and said my peice.

The fact that one child may come from a broken home a step family or a two parent family or an adoptive family or even a foster family IS IRRELEVENT to how that child ends up as a teenager behaving! Honestly there are children of 16 both male and female that have the foulest tongues in captivity when outside the family home but around family or within the home they are angels... both rich kids and poor kids makes no difference.

Does corporal punishment work? I say it does have an effect... DEPENDING on the child... on some children it wont make a stick of difference yet others you only need to look like your going to do something or raise your voice and the warning is heeded or lesson learnt.

So some kids need to be a) reminded of manners decorum and respect b) sharply reminded that certain behavior will not be accepted.

I will admit to have whacked the kids on occasion... I have also been known to stick a bar of soap in a couple of kids mouths for abusive language at times and not necessarily my own! I dont tolerate cussing from any kid period!

Was I a buggar of a kid as a young one? sure as heck! did I swear and cuss? sure did... did I get a bar of soap whenever mom aunty uncle or any other of my many adult carers catch me SURE DID! Did it stop me? No but I became more selective and cautious about when and were I used it!

I have trouble with kids of today in just one way... lack of respect... they seem to lack basic respect for the old ones and a basic lack of respect for girls and women... these are the biggest problem I see from young ones around me

Was a time when your mum would tell you as you left for your date with some girl "you treat her right and treat her as youd expect a boy to treat your sister" and so you would with kid gloves cause you loved your sister... nowadays it doesnt seem to be the case... and the girls dont seem to have a problem with that treatment as though they sort of expect it... its sad as hell when you see so many girls with so little self esteem and self respect and so many boys without respect for girls... seems somewhere they became more interested in instant gratification rather than giving a damn what she wants... lack of respect

The old ones are beaten shoved pushed robbed and abused with seemingly increasing regularity... Gawd ****e we would NEVER consider the passage of thought that would result in disrespecting harming or hurting old people... it just didnt happen!

Every kid needs to KNOW the boundaries within which the live... and every parent must put those boundaries in place AND enforce them!

****E!! I wasnt goin to get into this one just a short note and out again... kids!! huuurumph take over our lives dont they!! :rolleyes: