View Full Version : Would it Hurt?
Ian G Wright
03-07-2002, 06:26 PM
Those of you with real boats who undertake the annual repaint ceremony may have noticed that your boat looks at her best just before you lay the gloss on and the normal crop of dust grit and flying insects have embedded in the wet paint. So, I wondered, why bother? Would it break some Grand Law of Boat Building if, once we have sanded, filled, undercoated and rubbed down our topsides to a standard of eye watering perfection we just carried on with ever finer grit and compound until we have such a fine finish that we don’t NEED the gloss coat and avoid the grit and insect stage altogether?
03-07-2002, 06:36 PM
Sure...why not...I'll second that.... smile.gif
03-07-2002, 06:50 PM
Well, whatever, Ian. Whatever floats your boat!
03-07-2002, 07:13 PM
I can't tell if you're joking, but some people do exactly what you describe. Especially people who paint with the hard 2 part LPUs. I don't put my topside paint on very thick, so I'm not sure I could get away with a "compound and wax job," which is essentially what you are talking about.
Some people polish and buff out their gloss coat to get a perfect surface. 3M makes some appropriate polishing compounds.
Me, I'll stick with a fresh coat of paint every year.
03-07-2002, 07:57 PM
I finished my airplane just that way. Of course it is entirely foam, glass and googue but the paint is just as thick as on your wooden boat so why not. Orange peal was my biggest problem but there was dust and bug tracks too. I wet sanded with gold paper which is extremely fine, 1000, 2000? then used automotive buffing compound then polishing compound on a lambs wool buffer. It shined line the painter knew what he was doing.
03-07-2002, 11:13 PM
Did a piano once that way, when air dried just wasn't good enough. A lot of work, but it looks like a million bucks.
03-07-2002, 11:44 PM
Humor aside, Ian. When my boat was 15.5 feet long, I used to do that. There were two schools of thought as to which surface was faster, a sanded surface or a glossy surface. I joined the sanded surface group. It seemed to work and since the boat was painted every year, almost, it didn't appear to create any problems.
Now that the boat is 40 feet long, it is a different issue. No way! No how! am I going to sand that much surface more than once.
Anyway, critters in the paint add quality and class. You want a glassy, perfect, surface? Ditch the boat and get something you can put Imron on...You know...a boat made out of the other stuff.
03-07-2002, 11:45 PM
Isn't there something about an untouched coat having some greater membranous/impervious effect? (Seriously)
03-08-2002, 12:07 AM
You all are too finicky.
I've run my boat on a two year old hull paint job and she looks fine, very fine. Don't look too close, maybe fifty feet is as close as you are able to get before you have to ask permission to come closer. The next year is work, but then, just keep the boat moving on the water, and then you can claim miles as your territory, as well as bragging rights at the dock.
03-08-2002, 12:12 AM
I think that is a very reasonable question, Howard.
We paint our houses to protect the wood from the sun, wind and rain, but those elements are occasional. Paint a boat and put it into the water and the exposure is not occasional. The structure of a house is designed to slough off water, not by the paint, but by the design, and boats, certainly, are designed to resist water without the assistance of paint. And yet, we paint.
I don't know the answer to your question, except to say that paint isn't going to prevent water from soaking into the wood, glossy or not.
03-08-2002, 06:05 AM
Hey Rod, going back to your earlier message, what do you feed your boat on? And is it cheaper than buying a new one?
03-08-2002, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by rodcross:
Humor aside, Ian. When my boat was 15.5 feet long, I used to do that... Now that the boat is 40 feet long, it is a different issue...Now Rod I think we all deserve an answer to the question that is really bugging us... what sort of boat have you got? When did you notice its massive growth spurt? What did you feed her on to get that sort of growth? Is it intrinsic to your area? Is it a family secret ala Kornel Harlam Suanders Kentucky Chucked Chicken? Was it the paint? Was it the method? was it the way you gritted your teeth and poked your tongue out at the same time while you sanded? WE NEEDS TO KNOW MATE!!!
Take it easy
[ 03-08-2002, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]
03-08-2002, 09:36 AM
Other racing boats! She got nibbled-at during the first few years until she and I agreed on a few things, then she would gobble up the competition with gusto. She grew at the rate of about 6" a year.
As usual, the middle years were the most difficult. She couldn't decide what she was to become, a lean, mean racer or a comfortable cruiser.
Now she's fully grown, she's a cruiser, but still nibbles on the transoms of other sailing craft when the spirit moves her.
Doesn't everybody's boat grow a little, every year?
Ed. Oh yeah, Mike. The word 'cheap' or any derivation of the word should never be in the same sentence as the word 'boat'. At best it is an oxymoron; At worst its an insult. My boat cost about $100 a foot and about $30 a foot was the annual budget. Now, the annual budget is closer to $150 a foot.
[ 03-08-2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: rodcross ]
03-08-2002, 09:43 AM
Knew there was a reason I just roller on the searsbestexteriorlatex . . .
03-08-2002, 10:53 AM
Drake's planks are cypress. Nothing sticks to cypress for very long no matter how you try. (It's like trying to paint pine gum. Those greying wood houses all over the southern US bear witness.) It just peels. The best LP just doesn't grip much better than anything else. I end up scraping loose bits and patching anyway, which ends up being quite useful in covering up dock and fender scars -- I worry much less about the paintwork now.
So Ian I know you disagree, but I go with Granna's Ian and the best exterior latex. Mind you he's quite misinformed -- Home Hardware has a better exterior latex than Sears!
Ian G Wright
03-08-2002, 02:25 PM
Humour? 50ft paint job? Latex? LATEX?
Good Lord, this is about the paint on Patiences topsides. Not a matter for laughter, a -0.5 mm paint job is what I'm after, and latex rolled on(?) , Well!
Let's start again.
Only perfection will do. No faults, runs, curtains, fish eyes, misses, orange peel,dust or insects.
Since only God is perfect we can simply do our very best witin our own limitations. One of my limitations is that I have to paint out-of doors and not inside a climate controlled shed, so, if the weather is less than ideal then so is the paint job.
I CAN do a very nearly perfect sanding job, so, given that there is enough paint on the surface in the first place I SHOULD be able to continue sanding up to 1500 or 2000 grit then finish with a good compound... Yes?
Questions. How many topcoats will be enough?
Is a one part marine oil paint 'compoundable'?
Do Kirby export?
Should I build a shed, stop whining and do the job right??
Should I hire space in an existing shed and drive further?
How perfect does a finish coat have to be to make other boat owners hate you. ;)
03-08-2002, 03:16 PM
You are a little crazy, you know.
Try this. Determine how much oxidation and chalking is on the surface of your existing paint. If its light, which I suspect, you won't need to sand much at all. Maybe start with a 1000, wet sanding with soapy water. You don't want to take off any sound paint, just the chalkiness. After that's dry, go at it with a medium polishing compound to get the sanding marks out. It should look very good at that point. Finish with a superfine polishing compound and a wool buffer, as Norm suggests. Make sure you have your sunglasses handy, 'cause it's a gonna shine.
If you want suggestions for which compounds to use, ask an auto-body shop.
A good marine paint that has been curing for a year should be hard enough to compound. But there's only one way to find out. If it turns out to be too soft, you always have the option of applying another coat of paint.
In my experience, the shine you get from polishing paint, while brilliant at first, won't last as long as the shine you get from a fresh coat of gloss enamel. In other words, halfway through the season, you may be looking at a semi-gloss finish.
I would only do this if it were a lot less work than painting. Otherwise it's just not worth it. No one can tell the difference until their eyes are six inches from the hull, with the light just so . . . But I'm not qualified to cure a crazy man.
03-08-2002, 05:54 PM
I'm pretty sure the Chemist took on this question a little while ago and said that a sanded suface has much less durability than an air dried one. Then it just gats down to how good you want the boat to look vs how often you want to do the work. At the rate I chew things up with docking mishaps etc, I think I'll just roll and tip mine and let it be as pretty as it can be.
03-08-2002, 10:38 PM
Ian, if you're going to sand a yacht the size of Patience with 2000 grit paper then I take my hat off to you.
I guess my ketch should be named Impatience!
Mind you I wish I was sanding Drake now -- she's still buried in snow.
Ian G Wright
03-09-2002, 05:24 AM
Originally posted by Scott Rosen:
You are a little crazy, you know..Crazy eh? They called me crazy when I kept on making laminated tillers, but the seventeenth was just right, so that showed them.
Anyway,,,,,,, Patience is done for this year, including insects and orange peel, you only have to get within a foot to see just what a bad job I have done
,,,,,,,,, but next year, just you wait!
03-11-2002, 10:44 AM
I've a friend notorious for his astounding craftsmanship and meticulous sailing. I may be Commodore of WIMPP for my manias about boat handling and rigging, but this guy . . .
Rather like Ian the Right.
Anyway, he recently bought the boat of his dreams - She'd been lived in for many years by a Dutch couple, the fellow being an astonishing shipwright who cheerfully allowed his own boat and his tool boxes to be all the resume he needed.
During the sale as the two couples were more or less falling in love with each other and the Dutch couple knew their darling was going to good hands, the Dutchman, a little in his cups, turned to my friend and said,
"They have a name for men like us, for you and me, in Holland, you know."
"Oh. What is that?"
"They call us ant f*&^%$s."
On that boat's Kedger's Club burgee we embroidered a pair of copulating ants . . .
So Ian, I know people like you. There is no cure. The only way out is the way in. Sand your top coat with 600 grit or finer, then wax and buff.
But every day you're doing that, I'll be sailing.
Heh heh heh.
Ian G Wright
03-11-2002, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
a pair of copulating ants . . .
.I love it!
Ant F****r or nit picker, either will do and proud to fly the flag Sir.
,,,,,,,,,,but as those who have seen Patience will tell you she does not have a fine furniture finish and she's no gold plater. She is, I hope, a good example of a good design and I do the best I can for her. I would do better if I could.
03-12-2002, 07:11 AM
You had me worried there Ian, I thought you were going to try so hard for the perfect finish that you wouldnt be in the water this year, wheres the sun :cool: . Its still in hiding up here, suffice to say I am only just thinking about paint now.
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