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Osborne Russel
12-08-2005, 03:29 PM
The cliques, camarillas, mafias, cabalas, or as the Italians often call them, consorterie, as well as the more honorable but just as unofficial organizations to which the people entrust their security are not always chosen consciously . . . (nevertheless) such bonds are so strict that that people who would naturally be enemies back home (born in rival towns or in rival quarters of the same town) immediately become allies and accomplices in alien surroundings . . .The same feeling binds almost all Italians under a foreign tyranny perhaps more strongly than the inhabitants of any other country in the same predicament. The French, the Dutch, the Danes naturally tried to help each other against the German occupation during the last war. None however were trained so well by history to violate all laws, to understand each other at a glance and to combine their efforts against the occupying authorities as the Italians. They already knew all the tricks. Only a tiny and unreliable minority sided with the Wehrmacht. The great majority spontaneously and immediately behaved as if they were all long-lost cousins. Anybody anywhere could find refuge without fear in the first farm house he came to. The same privileges were extended to the Allied escaped prisoners, as many of them can testify, not only because of the ideals they represented, but also because they, being persecuted by the Germans, had somehow become honorary Italians.

Luigi Barzini, *The Italians* (1964) Simon & Schuster, New York, p. 218.What do suppose would have happened if the defeat of the Germans and ouster of Mussolini had been followed by an American occupation of Italy? What price "victory"?

Note the close parallels and important lessons for the current situation. The Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds have three things in common, besides the circumstance of being thrown together as a fake nation:

1. They hate Saddam
2. They hate each other.
3. They trust no "national" government, because in view of #2, only a Saddam-like national government can survive.

So long as America helps with #1, they cooperate. America cannot help with #2. If America displaces Saddam and becomes an occupier, we have a new #1, i.e., they all hate America. ”Even people who would naturally be enemies . . . trained so well by history to violate all laws, to understand each other at a glance and to combine their efforts against the occupying authorities . . . Anybody anywhere could find refuge without fear in the first farm house he came to.”

Into this world of “cliques, camarillas, mafias, cabalas, or as the Italians often call them, consorterie” steps the Bush Administration, confident that the "average Iraqi" has been eager all along to abandon the carefully constructed web of allegiances and alliances among these non-governmental (usually anti-governmental) associations that provided the only security possible under the Turks, then the British and French, then Saddam, in favor of “freedom” from such antiquated trash because America as an occupier is so much more skillful an occupier than her predecessors, and is capable of rendering them unnecessary after a few short years, a constitution, and a few elections. Come what may, the American troops will be gone, by 2008. By then the Iraqi people will have learned to trust their security to elected officials governing in the name of all Iraq, including the hated enemies across town. The former antagonists will automatically recognize their common interest in this modernization, disarm themselves, and abandon their traditional loyalties. They'll be happy to have their former enemies join the police and the army, acquire arms, collect taxes, and enforce the law.

It would be arrogance and hubris if it weren’t simple ignorance. But ignorance on this stupendous scale is difficult to describe merely as ignorance. Paranoia . . . psychosis . . . you tell me.

I understand Signor Barzini’s pride in asserting that the Italians of all people were best prepared to bugger, bleed and frustrate their foreign occupiers and their domestic occupiers (the fascists) at the same time. Their great delight is to defeat governmental authority by flattery, trickery, lying, stealing, sabotage, and all arts of dealing with people they consider to be occupiers, including temporary alliances with their natural enemies.

Now we’ll see how good the Iraqis are at sabotaging occupation. The ones left alive by the Saddam years are for that very reason likely to be the ones most adept at maintaining the power of their cliques in defiance of whatever national government puts forth the claim of acting in the name of the “sovereign Iraqi people.” That is a fiction which only people outside Iraq can afford.

Nevertheless, we must continue to pursue victory. In the war, or occupation, or whatever the hell it’s supposed to be.

uncas
12-08-2005, 03:41 PM
Maybe I'm getting tired of people spending 10 seconds posting a C&P and expectimg me to take 3-5 minutes...to get all of it...reading it.
Summarize...any opinion...? anything to save us...if you add all of the C&Ps posted together...hours reading something we can find in the paper.
So summarize..I'll read the summaries but not paragraph after paragragh of someone elses published stuff.
I want yours.your opinions...your thoughts...not the NYTIMES, BALT SUN or whatever...
If you can't express yourself in your own words...without a C&P...don't bother posting...
Oh by the way...I submitted my first...in over a year...C&P the other day in response to a request.

[ 12-08-2005, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

Osborne Russel
12-08-2005, 03:48 PM
Yeah, I know, it's way too long. But if I only say that America and the Bush Administration are in a state of ignorance if not psychotic self-delusion, calling an occupation a war, hailing victory, and so on, people will say, what can you offer in support?

Bruce Hooke
12-08-2005, 03:49 PM
Ummm...unless he is simply failing to attribute it, most of what is in Osbrorne's post appears to be his own thoughts and words, and not a C&P...

Jagermeister
12-08-2005, 04:29 PM
What do suppose would have happened if the defeat of the Germans and ouster of Mussolini had been followed by an American occupation of Italy? The Anglo-American occupation of Italy lasted from 1943 through 1945.

Meerkat
12-08-2005, 04:42 PM
Yes, but the Italians, and the Germans for that matter, had a recent history/recollection of democratic government, not generations of totalitarian rule like the Iraqis.

Then, there's the religion issue. They've been fighting that for hundreds of years.

Jagermeister
12-08-2005, 04:49 PM
Just now I'm reading John Keegan's book, The Iraq War. Has a pretty good overview of the religious and political milieu of Iraq. Too complex for me to accurately summarize, but I'd recommend it as a relatively unbiased.

LeeG
12-08-2005, 04:57 PM
Jager, I've just started The Assasins Gate by George Packer.

I strongly suggest reading Thunder Run by David Zuccino/Mark Bowden

After that Generation Kill by Evan Wright.

and if you're realllly brave..The Vulcans by James Mann

[ 12-08-2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: LeeG ]

Osborne Russel
12-08-2005, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Jagermeister:
The Anglo-American occupation of Italy lasted from 1943 through 1945.An occupation of a defeated enemy in a real war, until the defeat of its ally, at which point the occupation terminated.

It took two years. Why isn't the occupation of Iraq already over, if the two occupations are analogous?

LeeG
12-08-2005, 07:07 PM
uh oh,,,analogies are only used until they aren't useful,,you can't follow a line of argument too far or you become a re-writer of history,,or as the fellow on SNL calls them,,history re-writers.
So if you point out the fallacy in a persons analogy it's like questioning their patriotism,,then you'd be a patriotism questioner and that's just not right.

ishmael
12-08-2005, 07:15 PM
Some people don't like Sushi.

Jagermeister
12-08-2005, 07:43 PM
My brother, "The Liberal", :D , just finished "The Assasins Gate" and also highly recommends it. I'll probably borrow it when I return Keegan's book to him. Since he makes so damn much more money that me I figure he can help support by book habit. :D (In all honesty, he probably reads five books to my one, and I'm constantly reading. Don't know how he manages it.)

If the Mark Bowden of "Thunder Run" is the same one who wrote "Black Hawk Down", I will definitely get it and read it. For me, Black Hawk Down is an incredibly moving story of the heroism of American soldiers in a bad place at a bad time, let down by the poor planing and politicking of their superiors. (Blame to Bush I and Clinton equally for that one, IMHO, since they both tried to do peacekeeping on the cheap.)

Osborne Russel
12-08-2005, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by LeeG:
So if you point out the fallacy in a persons analogy it's like questioning their patriotism,,then you'd be a patriotism questioner and that's just not right.You're right and I fell into the trap once again. A foolish consistency and all that. Forget the analogies.

Let's get back to the question: when has the Bush Administration ever acknowledged any particular difficulties of this occupation, and/or their particular remedies? If there could be such a thing as "victory", wouldn't that be a big part of it? "How we will convince the Shiites, Kurds and Sunnnis to surrender their traditional powers, loyalties, principles, habits, and whatnot, and let their security rest in the hands of their erstwhile enemies" -- ?? Is that in the 30 page outline of victory? How are they going to do what's never been done by outsiders, and which the insiders don't want? Or is that asking too much? Should I be satisfied with just some good old fashioned "victory" over "the enemy"? Even if I have to distort reality to invent an "enemy" to have "victory" over? Is that what the Vulcans are telling me? [named for the Roman God of Fire]

Meerkat
12-08-2005, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by ishmael:
Some people don't like Sushi.I don't like fishmeal.

LeeG
12-08-2005, 09:31 PM
Osborne,,maybe you can find satisfaction in translating GWs speeches,,,put them to rhyme?

The Vulcans are retiring. Rice is trying to recover Powells lost legacy, Wolfowitz tried telling us the war would be paid by oil, Wurmser is somewhere with Cheney, Libby is gone, Rumsfelds adlibs don't command the press anymore, pfffft.

Jager, do you blame GW for authorizing regime change and nation building on the cheap?