View Full Version : Drowning

Joe (SoCal)
11-27-2002, 11:05 PM
I'm too embarrassed to talk to people about this and I don't want to loose it so I have to vent and I feel you all are my friends and the best minds of my generation (taken from Ginsburg's "Howl ") . After working through the boom of the 90's at someone else's company I started my own company three years ago. The first year was gangbusters my companies billing was well over a million dollars. I had a few dot com clients - used a Kozmo.com contract for a down payment on the 1/2 million dollar home we bought. Since 9-11-2001 my company has Lost so much it has reduced me & it to a shell of what we both were. I have managed to scrape and strive by for over a year now. Also thank god my wife has a full time job and health benefits. But now were getting into problems. Just the upkeep of the home is amazing mortgage, oil, electric, property taxes, you know the deal its just starting to back up on us. My company which used to make anywhere from $20k to $30,000 per month now is lucky to make $2,000 to $3k per. I took the down time to renovate those apartments with some money we got from a refinance and they bring in $2,000 of our $2,600 mortgage witch is great but we are behind so much we have about $10,000 in credit card debt and the calls are starting to come in. My wife is not capable of dealing with this. I cant sleep anymore - that's most of the reason I'm on this forum so often. It's so bad I took a watering and bar tending job at a local high end restaurant since they only serve dinner and I can work my company in the day and keep the wolves at bay in the evening, I can make $600 per week there. I just came home from there my first week. I have to tell you I'm soooooooo embarrassed I haven't bartender or waited a table in 10 years or more and I'm working with people 10 years my younger. I keep looking over my shoulder so no one I know comes into the dam place and sees me. I throw parties at my home were are very popular and we have this big beautiful home and here I am schlepping T bones & martinis at a local restaurant. I feel like such a stooge - I feel like a scum telling you guys this I'm a 38 year old father and owner of an award winning NYC design firm working nights in a bar. Anyway Christmas is gonna suck this year and I'm so stressed. The reason I posted all this crap here is I was so looking forward to going to Mystic next month and meeting all of you that could come BUT now I don't know if Ill be scheduled or if ill have any money I haven't been this poor with this many bills in my whole life I almost cant think strait. Anyway Ill regret this later I'm just rambling but I don't know what else to do. I have to go to Thanksgiving tomorrow with my wife's family and pretend that I'm Joe the wonder boy that they expect and meanwhile I'm working Friday nights 6 till closing in a freaking restaurant. Man what a long strange trip its been. Thanks for just letting me hang this out there.

Mike Field
11-27-2002, 11:23 PM
What's there to say, Joe? I know a lot of people are hurting financially right now. I'm sorry to hear about your plight and I sure hope things pick up soon for you.

And that you get to Mystic.


Wild Dingo
11-27-2002, 11:26 PM
Joe... just do what you have to do... anyone has a problem with that tough ****e!... sorry to hear youve hit some challenging times mate seems to be in the water this year

Christmas will be a tad tight? soooooo do what we and many others do... forget buyin presents and get your butt into the barn and make some!

Hoons are actually real easy to please if its made with love and from you... cause see your special to them and that makes whatever you make special to them cause it comes from you... then again hoons can be real curiosities to example when the twins were babes of 2 or so we were like you in that ****ey position so I went to with gusto makin dolls prams "twucks" and possumpoop went to and made dolls clothes crafty things and all sorts of other interesting and precious things... you know what those beautiful little hoons played with?? HUH??... a flamin mud puddle in the backyard!!! nothing else was of precious happiness to them but muckin about in a mud puddle wearing possums clothes... so moral is I guess you got a beautiful hoon there mate and a loving wife... thats the important thing everything else is just icing on the cake of life.

Once folks know they help out in the most surprising ways mate... believe me!... theres still great people out there

What happened with the boatbuilding school in the barn idea? sounded pretty cool to me...

Take it easy

11-27-2002, 11:33 PM
Joe, you know in the movies when the hero is going through the crisis of faith and is all glassy eyed and babbling? And the level-headed guy slaps him hard up 'side the head and tells him to "snap out of it!"?


With the best of intentions:

You're young, smart, healthy, and have a good family. Your day business, night job, and personal pride don't mean s**t compared to these. Many people have it far worse, make do with far less, and have fewer prospects through no fault of their own, yet keep plugging away in good spirits.

Stand up. Delete this post. Get back in the fight. Focus on things that are important. Pride isn't one of 'em.

[ 11-28-2002, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: mmd ]

capt jake
11-27-2002, 11:34 PM
Oh Joe, I can feel the pain! More could feel it if you broke it down into paragraghs or the like! smile.gif

Suck it up anad enjoy the feeeling. I know that sounds odd but I hve been there. No cable and the like!
When I was first divorved I was uneployed and struggling!!! I found a job managing a 140 unit apartment complex. Mind you this was every detail of the operation. Accounts payable, backgroud checks.... You get the point!

The time I spent there (though I thought it would sink me) was the MOST rewarding time in my life! I had to live on a shoestring (and pay child support). I got to interact with others.....others who were more despirate than I. This time also let me know that I can provide for my family on less than what I had considered normal. WAY LESS!!

But we had FUN!!!!!!! Way more fun than my kids and I have now!!!!! I am serious!! If i could go back... iwould go back to the apartment, managing teh complex. The kids were so happy then.. I make a hell of a lot more now... but that is not the point.... Be true to your family and do what you need to do...........

They will be there buddy! They will!! They truelly will! Put off the boat upgrades for now. Get on with what needs to be done. You woud be suprised what you can do without!

Oh Boy! I guess I need to clean my own closets now!!! Cut the 'fat' and get down to basics!!

Joe, have a happy Thanks Giving and keep your spirits up dude!! smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

11-27-2002, 11:42 PM
Joe, do the next right thing. You'll still have to do that if you "lose it" or not. My ex just told me last night she's moving out back across the country with her husbands new job and she's leaving it up to our girls whether they want to live with me or her, this is a decision two teenage girls would rather not have,,6yrs ago I wasted myself with a custody dispute and still moved across the country anyway so that my daughters and I could still be a family of sorts. Hang in there.

11-27-2002, 11:43 PM

This is pro bono, and you know you get what you pay for.

Sell it! Sell the house, the fancy vehicles, anything else you are in debt for, and anything else you don't really need. Eliminate your debt. Don't wait, start tommorow. If you have to bite it a little on the house, do it. None of that glory means squat. It is just a dream you are partial to. What is important is that you figure a way to raise those kids, and love your wife.

It seems the housing bubble is about to deflate, so don't wait.


capt jake
11-27-2002, 11:48 PM
Joe, Jack has a valid point.

Hang in there buddy! I will all work out. Trust me on this point, it will!

11-27-2002, 11:52 PM
Oh, and any work one does to support one's family is worthy. You feeling unworthy because you have to sling t-bones and martinis is beneath you, not the work itself. Com'on Joe, you know that, but you've forgotten.

capt jake
11-27-2002, 11:55 PM
Again, Jack has a very valid point!! What ever you have to do is what you have to do. Don't degrede thyself for that!!!

Leon m
11-27-2002, 11:57 PM
I once owned my own business and ran into some hard times too.I remember it got so bad I had to take a second job harvesting tabacco.One day I worked so hard I wore holes through my gloves then
I got blisters then I wore holes through my blisters.In those hard times after getting tired
of all the stress I surrendered to the fact that
all I could do is wake up every morning walk out the front door and give each day my best effort!
LIFE IS A CIRCLE Joe you WILL come out on top
again.Just walk out that door each morning,give
your best effort and it will come around.And as
far as your freinds and family,go ahead and tell them they'll understand and you won't have to
pretend all is hunky dory .If they don't understand maybe ....GOOD LUCK!!! and try to enjoy
the holidays you still have your wonderful family
Leon m

Joe (SoCal)
11-28-2002, 12:00 AM
God thank you all so much in such a short time and on Bourbon old fashion later I have heard from around the world Thank you Thank you Thank you. To yell into the darkness in the middle of the night and hear back words of encouragement first from the other side of the world is truly a testament of how great a community we have her is dam what oyster says. Thanks Mike and Shane, Shane you of all people may understand how much I love my daughter, Tess and the life she has grown into her private Montessori school her friends her pond her HOME. My wife and I never got a dime from anyone we are self made people. We bought this HOME our first HOME on our own we love this place as much as a family member. Its odd but this place spoke to us and I will sooner go down fighting than sell it sorry Ish. When you find a place that speaks to you like this you will know, I'm going to dig a hole behind my barn and when I'm ready to die I'm going to walk to that hole and fall in and someone shovel dirt on me. I have been poor I grew up poor. I will slap myself and try till I drop I will wait tables I will shovel crap what ever it takes to keep my family and myself here. We may do with a lot less and deal with creditors but until we get dragged out of here I'm not going. I'm just depressed because I worked so hard to get here and it's evaporating before my eyes

11-28-2002, 12:15 AM

I've never had the dreams you have, so my advice is automatically suspect. I was raised in a two bedroom ranch, with two brothers. And even though there were deficits, I think I was raised pretty well.

There wasn't the supposed "richness" of a 4000 ft house, and I never "fell in love" with a place to live, except a camp we went to in Northern Michigan, which still haunts me, but another story.

You say you are drowning, and I tell you the ocean is debt. I wouldn't presume to tell you how to live, but the water, trying to drown you, is debt. Find a way to get out of the water.

Be well brother,


[ 11-28-2002, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

Wild Dingo
11-28-2002, 12:20 AM
ooohhh so it was just a wee whinge??? :eek: you just felt like having a gripe at the world in general eh??... well thats okay then no worries :D

I still maintain mate as a husband and father with integrety moral fortitude and pride... you just do what has to be done...

I tell you what Joe... Your bubba is the main thing and as I said theyre pretty easy to make happy... the wife now thats a different kettle of fish eh ;) I dont give a flying phart what a house is made of how old it is or even if its got "soul" ....The house dont mean ****e without them two!!!... For me and Id guess for you too if it came down to choice... feeding the hoon and missus or keeping the house which would you choose???... well duuuhhh thats a nobrainer!! the hoon and missus of course!!!!... and there you are... do what has to be done to keep the family together everything else is just icing on the cake.

Who bought up houses in this flamin conversation???... damn yer eyes yer swab!!!! :mad: ... my thoughts on the houseing situation?? mmmmmmm nah my view dont count cause my experience aint as nice as yours! :D

Okay no more soapboxing for me for awhile...

Take it easy

AND... What about that boatbuilding school idea???? HUH??? Twas a goodun Joe if anyone could pull it of I reckon youd be one of em! you got acres of help here mate... and quite a few of these fellow University of Woodenboat.com forum fellas come from NEEEEEEEOOOOOOOWWWWWWW York! :D ....I reckon if they can they would help... and yer even old grumpy ass OysterMike cause hes a legend tongue.gif

Take it easy

Joe (SoCal)
11-28-2002, 12:30 AM
Ish I respect your opinion and I know where your coming from. Trust me I grew up in a 5th floor walk up in The Bronx. 20 years ago I lived in a studio apt alone with one key in my life and enough money for rent and beer money and I didn't need much more. 20 years later I have 20 keys and a company with vendors and clients that count on me. A wonderful wife that has grown with me a 4 year old daughter 2 tenants that live THERE life's on my property 2 dogs 2 cats and Bills, etc., etc. Its not that easy to walk away and sell it all when you have as many strings that I do. What do you do with the people that rent from you, how do you explain to your daughter that her pond- Tess's Pond is not hers anymore. Ish its a lot harder to go back to a one key life once you got all the keys I got. Trust me if it was just me all I would need would be a six pack and rent money but ya got to walk a day in my shoes to know what I'm talking about.

Shane the kayak building school was kinda going but I only got 4 people who were iffy. Now I have the bartending and watering gig so it makes it a choice nightly cash money or the possibility of 4 guys and a class that I have no idea what to do first time venture VS a known dollar - what should I do. And yea We all love this house also were gonna go down with the ship but this is the last ship were ever gonna sail. Speaking of sails ALL boat building has stopped obviously which is also painful personally to me :(

[ 11-28-2002, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

11-28-2002, 12:46 AM

I think I know, but I probably don't. I want your wife to say to you, "I don't give a **** where we live, so long as we have a decent place, and Tess is well loved." Maybe she already has, and god bless her. Maybe it's a crumbling of your image you need to look to?

It's a strange time Joe. Even though the Dow flirted with 9000 today, some say the markers are there for a protracted downturn.

I don't know, and it doesn't speak to your issue anyway. Important to realize: it would be no reflection on your ability, just now, with the economy the way it is, if you had to cut back, and move to a smaller place. That's all. If it took some of the burden off of you and allowed you more time with Tess and your wife, it would be a blessing.

I don't know anything Joe, I'm just typing.


David N.
11-28-2002, 12:56 AM
read the thread , know what you are going thru , this month I billed out $600 bucks , one and one half billable days I only have a 100k in tools and all the various bill's that go with owning a biz ( rents a t-bill ) , so my savings are pretty hard hit . So it is time to go to work for some one else , just dont know how I will handle all the time off , I'am used to 70-80 hour weeks . One company is really interested , and I will have to relocate , but at least I will be building boats , and putting the beans on the table . And thru out it all , I think of my girl friend , she has two degree's and a 7 year old , and she makes $200 a month , yes two hundred a month ( and she works full time at that ) .
And just when thing's look the bleakest , I see some one worse off than me , and I think " there by the grace of god go I " . There is no shame in working , it is a shame not to have any!!

11-28-2002, 01:08 AM
Joe, I'm sorry mate but I agree with Jack, sell the house..... what you have is not the guage of who and what you are. You have a great family, they are the most important thing in your life... sell, rebuild and then buy the bloody thing back if you want... but to do that first you must survive!!!
I know what you are going through and I truly feel for you.

Joe (SoCal)
11-28-2002, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by ishmael:

I think I know, but I probably don't. I want your wife to say to you, "I don't give a **** where we live, so long as we have a decent place, and Tess is well loved." Maybe she already has, She has Jack she is far more together than I can hope to be. But me being the man I am I don't listen to her and I don't let her down except now and that is what's hurting me. Honestly I don't think we HAVE to give up the house yet I'm just going to have to work 20 hrs a day and worry a whole lot more and be humbled by my position in life now. Its just embarrassing after all I have done but as you all said any work to feed the family is good work

[ 11-28-2002, 02:19 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

Wild Dingo
11-28-2002, 01:53 AM
Geeeeeez mate... hope we havent added any stress by some of our comments just tryin to help is our small way...

I reckon your a pretty straight guy and your hurting so I apologize if any of my flippant words have gotten to you... no offence meant mate

I often come on and open up here about whats happening around here and have been overwhelmed with the support that is among this bunch of remarkable people from all over... its here for you too mate dont take any notice of my comment about "whingeing" you wanna have a yarn about whats happenin to you how your feeling about it all... then hell I say go for it mate!

Cant know who can offer some support if you dont have a yarn about it eh? and people here do give a rip mate... sometimes we subconsciously think there only a finite number of people who post a certain group of some 50 or so forum members but theres many many more who may not say a heck of a lot on threads but theyre there reading and listening and helping however they can... but this is a great place to have a yarn about life and how its impacting on you and yours.

sometimes just blowin of the cobwebs and getting a different perspective is enough to find your feet again so everythings not so dark... sometimes not... but its good to get it out of the system.

re: the boatbuilding thing... mate it will happen once you get this set of humps in the road of life sorted... if its what you want to do for the long haul... just get through the humps one step at a time...

Look to the little one mate she will tell you what you need to do... none of us can know everything thats happening in your life or how thats impacting on you at a personal level... we can only go on what we have experienced and what youve told us... that darling little girl hoon of yours will tell you what you have to do to sort it out... and if she doesnt then if your missus is anything like mine then she will!!!

Come a time she will stand forth and like a goddess given to you and like a lighthouse showing the ways she will smile and say... "mmmmm well Joe darls this didnt work did it?... now we have to sort it out sweetheart... as I see it we have some choices to make..." and whatever comes next is what will happen... these women folk are far and away more practical and logical than us fellas... dont let pride get in the way dont let anything get in the way of being together you and youre bride along with that little hoon of yours.

Breathe easy look at what youve achieved look at what your capable of and look at what you already have... and feel exctatically happy!... well okay have a bummer of day then! thats okay too... your human mate no worries... but then check out what youve done and given to this world of yours mate... remember to smell the roses and take some time to go smell some mate... and if theyre frozen over or hidden under 3ft of snow then find some flowers trees that are still there and in that place man its got it all... we only go round once find those things that matter... as for the rest?... well icing mate... just icing

Wish I had some answers for you mate... hey how about just walking out tomorrow am and take that little boat of yours and have a sail around for a few hours... while your there have a good look around you breathe deep and smile... your breathing!!!

Take it easy

[ 11-28-2002, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

11-28-2002, 03:24 AM
Morning all -

Joe - You don't have to pretend you're still Joe the wonder boy, you still are. You're the man that made the family and bought the house and strived for all you have today. You're just down on yourself from the stress of it all.

It always sounds trite, but life is rarely without pain and strife. That's why, IMHO, the pleasures must be savored and treasured. When you get to Mystic, and I bet you will, Ed can tell you why we're not there.

Just think about Lisa's sudden loss and all that really is wrong with the world and maybe that'll give a little perspective. Maybe some cutbacks are in order, and I'm sorry that this is all on your shoulders and not partly on your wife's. It is a heavy burden.

One last piece of perspective. Each day I stop several times at a convenience store next to our bus station. There's one homeless woman in particular that I see a lot. Maybe I'm being superior, but when I look at her and the blank gaze in her dead eyes, I know for a fact and without any doubt that my worst day is 100% better than her best.

Take care all - must get dinner going - the pressures I put on myself are primarily social - 30+ folks coming to dinner at noon. I may be up at 3:30 a.m. and getting ready to put out three last trays of bedding plants, but Martha's got nothing on me :D

Take care!

11-28-2002, 07:00 AM

Here's a potential resource. I've only heard this guy on the radio whilst driving my car, but he made a bunch of sense.


Happy Thanksgiving!


11-28-2002, 07:08 AM
As it is Thanksgiving Day- I think you, me, and every one in our country should be thankful for what they have. First of all health- if you are lucky enough to have it. What would happen if you or your wife came down with a debilitating illness? The days you are living through right now would seem rosey in comparison.
My business has had its ups and downs as has any one who has a small business- I have had to take on jobs which I thought my education and experience was above, but ya know what? I was thankful that those part time jobs were there. And I wasnt ashamed of a damn thing when explaining to friends what I was doing. There is no shame in honest work whether its tending bar , delivering pizzas, or sweeping floors. Any one who thinks different is a snob who may someday have their own day of reckoning. Keep that in mind Joe

11-28-2002, 07:29 AM
Joe -

There is no shame in working two jobs to keep your family housed, fed, and clothed. I had to get rid of my own fancy schmancy truck last month to get out from under the payments on it while my own problems settle down some. Get rid of the fancy cars with the high payments for a starter. They are just "things" and can be replaced if necessary when the finances turn back around. Work all the hours you can right now, maybe swap a lunch shift for next Saturday night with someone else. If someone looks down their nose at you in the restaurant because you are waiting tables, then you didn't want them as a friend in the first place. They should be ashamed of themselves if they think poorly of you for working an honest job. You find out in a real hurry who your true friends are when you are real need of friends.

Your boatbuilding students probably don't have a lot of spare time on their hands right now either, and might just prefer to wait until after Xmas and build on Sundays instead. That's just one more thought to keep those classes going...

Just try to put one foot in front of the other for right now....


ken mcclure
11-28-2002, 07:47 AM
Congratulations on having the balls to open this up to everyone. It's hard to share this kind of stuff.

I've been where you are before, and I'm there again ... 9/11 has almost done me in too!

The last time I hit the wall was 1986. I ended up filing bankruptcy, and ultimately getting divorced.

Before you get that far and go that route, try this:

1) Make up a personal balance sheet. Find out exactly what you're worth and compare it with what you owe. You're probably not in as bad a shape as you feel.

2) More importantly, take a look at what your business does, and take a closer look at what it's capable of doing. Are there talents and capabilities related to the business and its market that you are not exploiting?

3) Make a plan. Make a WRITTEN plan of what you're going to do to drag your butt out of the mire.

Sounds like you (like me) are mostly in a cash flow bind. Lots of short-term debts with little short-term income. As advised above, sell stuff that you don't really need or can replace readily. This could include the house if you're both of a mind to move. Do NOT use the proceeds for living expenses. Use that money to pay off debts, especially credit cards and the like.

A common piece of advice is to take lumps of cash like that and start paying off the smallest debts first. The more you can do to eliminate monthly payments the closer you will get to being able to sleep at night.


If you've built a business once you can do it again. As with the business capabilities assesment above, do a personal capabilities assessment. What things can you do to make money?

I am back to making cabinets. As I found before, I love the work but it just doesn't pay me enough per hour to live. But the income combined with the trickle of cash from the other business is just about enough for us to get by until we've finished restructuring the dye business.

Oh, and just for comparison - I'm in debt $122,534 (give or take) not counting the mortgage and the truck loan. Most of that is short-term credit card or consumer loan debt. What keeps me going is that I know just how fast cash can come in if I push the business in the right direction.

You can do this. Just don't lose focus.

Scott Rosen
11-28-2002, 08:04 AM

You have some important decisions to make, and you'll feel better once you start.

There are professionals who can advise you and help you understand your options, without the fear, panic and worry. I strongly, strongly recommend that you seek one out.

If you need some referrals, just email me. I'll be back in my office on Monday. Better yet, I can give them to you on the 7th in Mystic. Your choice. Until then, sit tight and take my word for it that there are solutions out there.

Cap'n R an R
11-28-2002, 08:17 AM
I'll play "shrink" for a moment Joe....you should be DAM PROUD that you are the kind of a human being that can face adversity and do what has to be done....sounds like there is a part of you that is embarrased for finding yourself a victim of this countrys economic madness...you dont need that part...the part of you that shows greatness is the part that is tending bar...the part that will someday make millions will never have the kind of greatness that you are showing at this moment in time...there is a message attached to everything that happens to us in life...read it carefully

Cap'n Ron

11-28-2002, 08:30 AM
Sounds to me like you need a little shot of self esteem...
It's not your fault that 9/11 tanked your business. It did serious damage to lots of self employed people(myself incl.), as well as wage slaves working for others. One thing is for sure though. You built a business up from dust once, you can do it again. You're talented, and resourcful. If you need to sling martinis for a bit.... so be it!
I'm lucky to have a wife who doesn't expect me to make bazillions of dollars, as long as we're happy, and we can still pay the bills. I take all sorts of evil grunt work when the chips get really low.
You'll pull through. Hold onto your dream, once you lose that, it's really hard to go on.
One last thing.... Dingo.... What the hell's a "Hoon"?

Bruce Taylor
11-28-2002, 08:51 AM
Joe, I thought this thread was going to be about drowning in water. That's really unpleasant, I'm told.

Having opened it, I'm relieved to see that it's only about drowning in debt and self-doubt.

If you think things will get better soon, keep at it. But don't live a bad life in a good house.

There are lots of places on this planet that will "speak" to you, if you'll listen. Some of them might be less costly (in all ways).

11-28-2002, 09:33 AM
I'm just depressed because I worked so hard to get here and it's evaporating before my eyes[/QB][/QUOTE]

Joe, forgive me bringing this up, I don't really know you or your situation but I found that helpful comments like "be grateful you have your health" mean s--t when you see "everything you worked for evaporating before your eyes" as well meaning as those comments are. Nothing like a concerned family member saying to me while going through divorce and seeing the death of hope for a marriage and family "things will get better, there are lots of women that will be a better match". Feel better?? er,,thank you but no, I am losing everything I worked and hoped for.
Ok, here it is. Depression, it happens when there's the loss of hope and an increase in stress. It can be coped with through maniacal work schedules and excercise. It cannot be masked or treated with bourbon or single malt scotches. Imagine a watch maker,,should he down 2 double espressos before working on a customers $20,000 watch?? Probably not. How about if you had to pack up your whole family and belongings on a flat bed truck and had to move from one valley where the well run dry to another valley with a good well and neighbors? Would that be a good time to have a few scotches, especially if the road was windy and it started raining? That probably wouldn't be a good time for a nightcap as your wife is in the car and wanting to talk about what's on the map or you need your attention because the road is off cambered and you really don't need to blow up because one of the kids is whining.
Ok, alcohol and the successful life go together but it's chemically a DEPRESSANT,,nothing wrong with that. Just like coffee is a stimulant. I will gurantee you that if you are depressed, working in a bar, and have a stocked liquor cabinet at home and home is where you are under stress for fear of losing it then you are in the same situation as driving that loaded one ton flat bed on that windy road with your family and you might be behind the wheel sometimes. The stakes are that high. Believe me, you don't get a second chance behind the wheel.
This is something no one really likes to talk about, just like people don't tell their doctors that they're drinking excessively while getting prescriptions for misc. medical issues. For example a buddy who is a paramedic had a call for a woman who had seizures as she mixed alcohol and Wellbutrin even though her life was not in tremendous stress.
Under stress/depressed? then use your good friends, good food, good work,rest exercise and prayer, those don't cost $ and will keep you sane. If this stress level is above a 8 on a 1-10 scale you will find your ability to go for mtn. bike rides to sweat the scotch out will become less enjoyable, and the scotch is more accessible in the wee hrs.
Depressed? don't take depressants. There are many different paths to take and if you take depressants while under stress I will gurantee you will get better at it. Things can get much worse. They can also get much better. This isn't rocket science. I won't tell you to be grateful,,when you're at the bottom of a hole being grateful for the shape of the rocks around you and the color of the sky above and the mud at your feet doesn't GET YOU OUT. Taking depressants while depressed is like using a shovel at the bottom of the well to dig deeper to find a way out. You need a rope, not a shovel. It's so easy to not see the ropes r dangling right above your head while shoveling.

Memphis Mike
11-28-2002, 09:58 AM
Joe, this isn't the last ship your gonna
sail. What Ken and Scott said is very
good advice. What everyone said is good
advice. I think you should go see a
professional and see what your options
are. You are a talented and educated
man. You may have to work MORE than
twenty hours a week to pull out of this
and work for someone else. SO WHAT! The
notion that a "man's work, makes the man,"
is horse****. What's important are your
family and what you do to touch the lives
of those around you. What you do for your

I've started over twice now in life at the
age of 43. Both times I thought the world
was coming to an end, that my life was over.
Ya know what? Things got a little better
each time. And it will for you too. No
matter what happens.

I don't know about you, but I will not
be beaten!

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Go out and have a great day and don't worry.
It'll be OK.

Memphis Mike
11-28-2002, 10:04 AM
Posted by Lee:
"Depressed? don't take depressants. There are many different paths to take and if you take depressants while under stress I will gurantee you will get better at it. Things can get much worse. They can also get much better. This isn't rocket science. I won't tell you to be grateful,,when you're at the bottom of a hole being grateful for the shape of the rocks around you and the color of the sky above and the mud at your feet doesn't GET YOU OUT. Taking depressants while depressed is like using a shovel at the bottom of the well to dig deeper to find a way out. You need a rope, not a shovel. It's so easy to not see the ropes r dangling right above your head while shoveling.
| IP: Logged

What Lee says is true Joe. I know it for a fact.

Gary Bergman
11-28-2002, 10:25 AM
Joe, right there with you, amigo. We are having one of those years also due to my latest injury, mostly. In 35 years of on the road steel erection we have a a few cliches as high and low peaks are continual.Our Native American brothers tell us its like bear hunting, One day you hunt the bear. The next day the bear hunts you.This won't be our first year buying a few presents to offset the ones we make out in the garage.Everyones right, you have made 'your world' to this point, you will make it work. My wife,who has been drug thru lifes gutters in my wake just asked this'make sure that your wife really wants the new home as much as you think she does. If you are sure that she is, then a way will come.For me in time of 'chicken and feathers'(one day you eat chicken, the next you eat feathers), it is important to try and de-stress so that I can keep focused on winning the fight.This, for me, means that no matter how hectic it gets, there is something I enjoy for diversion. Be sure and give yourself regular time for something you really like to do or enjoy. This is where the drive to keep it up for the cause comes from for me. Hang in there,Gary

Mr. Know It All
11-28-2002, 10:49 AM
Joe......Life is a roller coaster. Put your seat belt on and hang on until the coaster goes back up. My Respect for you is at an all time high buddy. smile.gif
Kevin in Ohio

11-28-2002, 11:01 AM
"Trouble...life is trouble, only death is not."


11-28-2002, 12:06 PM

Hang in there. I have spent a lifetime (to date) keeping companies that are on the edge from falling over and its taught me a few things.

Small creditors call as often as large creditors and are usually more difficult to work with. Every month take a small part of what you can scrape together for payables and get rid of some of the small ones. This will reduce the quantum of calls you receive and therefore, the stress.

Talk to your larger creditors most will be reasonable and you may be able to work out a schedule of payments with them to reduce your monthly cash needs.

Look at the business plan you had when you started your business. What made it work. How did you find your clients then. Start over.
What? You didn't have a written plan then? Hey, now is a good time.

Your staff have talents or else you wouldn't have hired them. Do you know what all is in their talent inventory. In the past we have been able to sub some people out doing stuff we don't normally do but it has provided some cash, kept them occupied and kept the talent pool.

Look for redundant assets. These are assets that aren't earning what they could and aren't really critical. This is in your personal life and business. Sell the redundant assets (note, this includes staff that aren't either adding to the bottom line or necessary to allow others to add to the bottom line). If the redundant assets are personal use them to pay down personal debt. If business pay down business debt. Don't mix the two. You don't want business creditors enjoying the proceeds from personal assets. And business creditors actually have legal rights to business proceeds.

It sounds like your house has a soul that is important to you. It also sounds like keeping it is a net $600 a month decision. That's likely less than you will pay for rent. Can you improve on this. Can you close off parts of the house to reduce utilities etc. Better yet can you close of parts and rent them out. This will be a short term reduction in the joy you have in your house but you will keep the house for the longer term.

What about expensive toys. These can be reaquired again in the future a lot easier than a house with soul. If you have some and if there is a market I would sell them.

Regarding christmas and a four year old. The best toy is the box. I know this sounds so contrary but back when our kids were this age we gave them a dishwasher box for christmas. I was an articling student at the time earning well under the poverty level. We cut a door and windows in it with them and painted it.
Seriously, long after the purchased toys were forgotten or worn out the kids were still playing in the box. It started with our oldest and our youngest ended up using it. I think it lasted close to 6 years.

Be proud of what you do. Ain't nothing wrong with waiting tables. You are supporting your family and providing a service that is needed.


11-28-2002, 12:19 PM
Joe I can't add much to what everyone else has said, but don't give up! Cut up the credit cards, consolidate your bills and hang in there! The hardest thing is to realize that you aren't in the t-bone party and trip to Mystic for a drinking fest income bracket for awhile and trimming down your lifestyle to fit your budget is *hard*, but you can do it! Focus on the basics and cut out everything else.

Oh yeah, and one final thing: >>HUG<<

11-28-2002, 08:51 PM
It's a hard patch, Joe. I've been there and it looks like I'm headed there again....<sigh> The answer to most crises is to simplify, simplify, and than do it some more.

As for toys, what whb said...it's the box! get some appliance cartons (big, strong), drywall screws, battens (1 x 3's) and a couple quarts (liters for the rest of you :D )of poster paint, and your daughter will remember the "castle" you built together for a long time. Warning: She will not let you remove this thing from the living room!!
Let her sleep in it. HA! you da man! :cool:

11-28-2002, 09:30 PM
Tough Thanksgiving. Everyone here is pulling for you, most are praying for you too.

Think seriously about what Scott and Ish said.

Turn to your wife - talk seriously about how you live your lives and what's really important.

One day at a time, Man.

11-28-2002, 09:39 PM
There's lots of good advice here Joe. Some have walked off with nothing and started again, youve got your family and their love and your health. It will work out for you. Stay away from the booze and pills, good scotch is meant for celebrating not forgetting. I've walked away too, and recovery is a mindset, dont forget how to laugh and make every contact you make a positive one. You've got the talent and will pull through I will be thinking of you as I enjoy your posts very much. Luck and good wishes
Anne and Jeff

Phil Young
11-28-2002, 10:20 PM
Never been through that Joe, so I've nothing of value to add. But good luck. Thanksgiving and Xmas are ****ty times if you are feeling down, peak suicide season. Just hang in there, get pissed if you need to, hug your wife and kid. She'll be right, no worries.

Joe (SoCal)
11-29-2002, 12:35 AM
WOW!! I Printed this all out to share with my wife. So much good stuff here and so much concern and dare I say love from the 4 corners of the world. Humbly I say THANK YOU. Last night was a rough night and I needed to unload and I appreciate you guys/gals being there. I'm a bootstrap kinda guy and I have a lot of positive buoyancy so I rarity sink. As far as my company and what it dose and what I can do I have been doing almost all of what has been mentioned here. Searching for new clients I have always believed in a diversified client base. Butter Design (my company) is an industrial design and print brokering firm based in lower Manhattan on Hudson St. After 9/11 I couldn't even get into the office for well over a month. I started to work more and more from my home office. Butter's client base has mostly consisted of small to mid size graphic designers and advertising agencies with diversity into a nitch market of cable TV doing exotic launch kits. My specialty is incorporating exotic materials into a printed project. I work with various manufactures and a few close printers and basically work as a liaison between the clients idea's my input and manufacturing. Butter design instead of charging a fee marks up the entire project and bills the client directly which is great for profits but hard on cash flow, Since a large portion of the money is payable back to the vendors.

Now what has happened nobody is printing in NY. That's the short story its way more complicated with things like large jobs being broken apart and scattered to various companies like me. A lot of the small companies are simply gone went under, larger companies are not willing to take a risk on a new guy like me or are cutting back on there advertising budgets. The vendors that I use are feeling the pinch even more so than me they are cutting staff way back and loosing millions with extremely high overhead.

Personally its a major shift for me to go from jobs that would bill for $60,000 generating a profit of approximately $15,000 to working small stationary project for $1,200 and making $500 or less profit and those are few and far between now. Its been a real elevator drop this year. All I really need is a few large projects again to put out a lot of fires. The waitering gig is exactly as some have mentioned to pay the small time creditors. The $600 per month needed to cover the mortgage IS less than we would pay in rent so I don't see selling the house to be a win situation yet. The problem is its not just $600 its the $7,000 taxes the oil the insurance the car payments we only have one car that req. payments the oil and general home maintenance with a 270+ year old home. We have cut back as you all know we keep the house warm by splitting wood. I have found that working from home saves us hundreds in commuting expenses. I have fast Internet connection and my NYC telephone is forward to my home office so no one is the wiser. My wife and I don't go out anymore we have cut back in every way and hunkered down. That's why it was hard for me to realize I just cant attend the Mystic event. I mean a year ago It would be a no brainier dive up get a nice hotel bring the wife and the hoon meet with you guys don't know have a big steak dinner do some heavy Christmas shopping with the wife. Now even the possibility of me driving up solo just for the day is just an extravagance I cant do - and man dose that piss me off. Additionally if its a Sat night Ill more than likely be working the new gig.

For those of you concerned that I may sink into the bottle, not a chance booze cost $$ especially the good booze I like smile.gif I don't have the disease, I mentioned the one drink I had while writing the original post because I was blown away by all the response I had in the time to finish the single drink I had that night. When business was good I was not immune to the power lunch with a few snorts with clients or friends but again booze cost $$ so a quite glass of wine or a single cocktail in the evening is all I'm good for. But thank you all for the concern. Its actually funny to see the restaurant staff all hopped up after a shift to go out and party it up - man do I remember those days now all I want to do is close and get home to my wife and daughter. Whew I do go on feeling like Dingo here smile.gif but I felt the sincere outpouring from all of you deserved as complete response as I could offer. Thank you all once again for allowing me to shout into the darkness and hear back from the 4 corners of the world thank you my friends you have humbled me yet again.

Wild Dingo
11-29-2002, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
WOW!! Whew I do go on feeling like Dingo here smile.gif eeeerrrr excuse me mr joe on da hudson sir was you speakin about me??? :eek: ...I mean unless theres another dingo here and I aint met him yet... {come on out dingo!! come on and meet your lations!! :cool: } but I dont thiiink so!!... you was talkin about little old quiet two sentence ME werent yer mate?? HUH??

Fooorsooth and begorrah... shame! whata statement!!... sigh... now ahm gonna have ta go drown me sorrows in a bottle of roo milk eat meself senceless with a mess of emu flavored anzac cookies and lay down on me wombat rug in the corner and sulk for awhile... Im stunned speachless and flabbergasted!! oh woe... talk too much???? ME???... not even... no way amigo!!

See that!!!! I saw that grin ya big lug!! HA!! :D ....have a great day!

Take it easy

Ron Williamson
11-29-2002, 05:49 AM
Regarding bartending,there's no shame in honest work.
As for everything else,I found that I had to diversify and then I could cherry pick the good jobs when I was busy.When I'm not busy, I'll do almost any wood-whore work.
A bit of humble pie is good for your soul.No one said you have to like it. smile.gif

Roger Stouff
11-29-2002, 07:00 AM
Chin up, Joe. You got what it takes to get through it, including a supportive family and friends over here. I got faith in ya.

Wild Dingo
11-29-2002, 07:38 AM
Some times a little perspective is needed Joe...

I coped an eyefull tonight and mate even with all our woes and stressors our life is truely brilliant and wonderful compared to what others are going through... some have it far worse... a matter of perspective.

my earlier sighing post that has been changed due to peoples encouraging me to get it all into perspective and not be so reflective (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=006891)

A real matter of perspective mate...

Take it easy

11-29-2002, 07:39 AM
Joe there isn't much I can say that hasn't already been said, so with that said I'll put in my 2 cents.

One thing, you and I are the same age and you got your own buisness and I still work for the "man" so I admire you for that. If you can make a go of like that you can pull through this.

The idea of paying off the small debts first is a good idea. The more dogs you get off of your porch the better you are. Remember that most of your creditors will work with you rather than lose your money all together.

Last but not least keep in mind that when God shuts the door he opens a window. Look for that window and when you find it everything will be alright.


George Roberts
11-29-2002, 12:24 PM
Joe ---

There are a lot of small businesses around here who would like to taste success just once. One good year to tell their kids about and they would be happy to struggle the rest of their lives.

You made decisions Joe. Some were bad. Time will pass and what happens will happen.

Jamie Hascall
11-29-2002, 03:18 PM
Yup, it's that kind of times. I'm working on staving off creditors with my 4 1/2 year old business and am working hard to reduce costs. I'll be moving the shop out of a rented space and into the basement that I'm now so fortunate to have. I'm still going to be renting my space but the money will now go into our pocket and help with the house payment.I was glad to hear that much of your work is now home based. Use what you've got.

If you haven't called the Small Business Administration, I'd get on the phone right away. The SCORE program (Service Core of Retired Executives) is free consulting with folks that spent their lives making success of their own businesses. They'll help you make a business plan and look at markets and marketing with you. I need to work with them more myself.

Hold onto those dreams. They will help you find the creativity to put this all back together.

Good Luck!

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-29-2002, 07:48 PM
I believe in the image of a God
Who draws straight with crooked lines,
Who quickly and easily forgives,
and Who loves us with the tenderness of a mother.

-Andrew Greely

My sister sent me that line in a letter when I was sitting in a treatment center in El Paso, Texas. That was May 1991. I haven't taken a drink or a drug since then. When I came back home, I asked my sister who I owed money to.. and she said "Pick up the phone book". I was a known associate of the Outlaws motorcycle club, a serious addict and alcoholic, and seriously involved in a criminal world of thieves,drug dealers, and murderers.

I changed my mind. I decided to live. I called every single creditor and told them the truth about my situation, and what I could do to service my debt.I apologized to a lot of people for being a fool, and worse. Those wounds healed with time. I had no cars, no furniture, sold a bunch of my tools, and everything else that was of value, and I stilled owed about 40k.
Every creditor that I called and fessed up to about my situation was supportive and understanding. It took me five years to pay everthing off, and I walked for three of those years. I had blown up a marriage, lost a home, and so many other things I can't begin to tell you about.

Joe... You are a lucky man. You're bright, articulate, talented and compassionate. You care about the tough issues of the world and it shows. You have a woman you love and a beautiful little girl, and they love you. You have friends that care. I will promise you with everything I know about this world that this too shall pass. I know how stressful this situation is, I have been there more than once, for too long. It appears to me you are looking in the mirror, and deciding what needs to be done. That decision will come from the experience of your mind,the strength of your heart, and the understanding of your God. All these things you have, will be enough to weather this storm. God bless you Joe.. and your family as well.

Peter ;)

[ 11-29-2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm ]

Bruce Taylor
11-29-2002, 09:05 PM
Quite a story, Peter. My hat's off to you.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-29-2002, 09:16 PM
Well Bruce, if you have been in Quebec long, you would remember the outlaws ten years ago or more... anyway... I had a hand in my own recovery, but so did a lot of other people. I have never since failed to be surprised at the compassion of the world around me, nor my ability to forget it should I choose to. Amen

Ed Harrow
11-29-2002, 09:52 PM
Little to add that's really useful - I've known a number of folks who've done their on thing, and a roller-coaster it was for certain, seems like they were always barely hanging on - sometimes on the way up, LOL, and sometimes on the way down.

I've been where you are, however, from a health perspective. I was so far down that hole the only thing left was to fill it, with me in it. I think it fair to say that every once of mental power that I could muster I focused on the top of that hole. I discovered, also, that I had a few real friends. Friends, in some cases, that I didn't know were friends. It wasn't easy, but it was worth it. The important things in life are worth your time and concentration. We're pulling for you...

11-29-2002, 10:16 PM
I just wished I knew what to do about my own problems. I find myself casting anxious eyes at the undersides of bridges lately, but they seem to have full occupancy.


11-29-2002, 10:29 PM
Aw Meer, you can lay your sad sorrows out ta this bunch. It's the ones who refuse to be known, and fire stinger missiles. I feel like I know you -- at least a little. And you are basically likable; at least as much a most of us, as near as I can tell.

No one ever said it has to be sadness and sorrow.

True Love
11-29-2002, 10:50 PM
Hey Joe,

I've only read page 1, and there's been better advice already given from a business perspective than I could ever offer you.

I will tell you this, and I hope it encourages you at this trying time - many of the folks whose names are now on edifices across the country because of their philanthropy, had the same experience you're having. In other words, many of the most financially successful people in American history made and lost not one fortune but many and then finally had a solid run.

What seems to have propelled them was their singular focus and their ability to continue to believe in themselves. You have both these qualities, Joe. Keep them.


garland reese
11-30-2002, 09:42 AM
Hey Joe,

I hope things work out for you. Just remember Joe, that the things in life are just fluff really. Keeping up with the Jones' can be miserable. It sounds to me that you are a very hard worker, smart, and highly motivated. You will be OK. Over the long run, your little one will remember be OK too. When she thinks back, she'll remember who cuddled with her on the couch, rather than how nice the couch was. She'll remember her friends and teachers from school, rather that how prestigious the school was. And she'll remember the times she had at home with Dad and Mom, moreso than the home........Don't give up on your dreams Joe, but don't sweat it if you have to modify them a bit for a while. God bless you and yours Joe.

We just watched a movie last night... "Family Man". Might not be your type of movie, but it puts things in perspective to some degree. It's a good movie to watch with your hunny :D :D :D

11-30-2002, 11:03 PM
A little perspective, here, wouldn't hurt.

Joe has talent...and drive. Its a low point, maybe, but keep in mind, anyone that can come into a $600 (CA$920, AU$1,300) a week job is getting a job that is 600 times more income than some people (or is that Most people?) in this world could wish for. It may not pay the mortgage on a half-million dollar house, but that is a VERY respectible income. Joe will be fine, in the long run, because he has what it takes to get by in lean times and the talent to do very well in the good times.

I was born rich. I didn't live in a walk-up. It was easy for me. When Joe was buying the house, I had a million in EMC, CISCO, IBM and GE. I bought a boat, a Lexus (to ease her pain at learning about the boat) and paid for two fabulous weddings.

Now that its all gone, I have to get a job just to pay the yard bills.

Who do you think will survive? Me or Joe?

My guess is Joe.

I'm going to Mystic, Joe.

Wild Dingo
11-30-2002, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by rodcross:
A little perspective, here, wouldn't hurt.

Now that its all gone, I have to get a job just to pay the yard bills.

Who do you think will survive? Me or Joe?

My guess is Joe.

I'm going to Mystic, Joe.Im gonna say just one thing mate... BS!!!... why? cause mate you'll both make it!!

Take it easy

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-30-2002, 11:16 PM
We got some kinda marine fever
wetter than a waterspout.
I bin thinkin bout Mystic town
ever since the spout went south,

Yeah I'm goin to Mystic
I'm gonna sail arouuuuund
Yeah I'm goin to Mystic
Look out Mystic town

(apologies to John Cash)

Tar Devil
12-01-2002, 12:47 AM
Joe, I don't know squat about helping you out of this situation. YOU do, though. You were smart enough to get there, and you'll be smart enough to fix it. I suspect you came to us 'cause you needed something else, so here it is...


And, I'll sick my wife on this problem. She's an ardent prayer warrior.

Later, my friend!


Memphis Mike
12-01-2002, 10:34 AM
That's quite a story Pete.

Henning 4148
12-01-2002, 01:23 PM
Hello Joe!

Here's a few Ideas from old Europe which may or may not be of value.

1. Business is down. Where you used to run a 20.000 to 30.000 USD/month company, you are down to 2.000 to 3.000 USD/month. A 2.000 - 3.000 USD/month company is a company that one person can (and has to) run alone from home. That's what you are doing. Why do you still need that office in the city? You hardly use it and it is a lot of cost. You can always hire a meeting room or an office for a day if you really need one. Or perhaps you can sublet half of your city office (share the costs) until things get better. Or ... .

2. You got to stay fit and in balance. If you work too hard for too long you will be so drained that you will not have the creativity to jump onto the train again when things get better. So limit your spendings as far as ever possible to allow yourself enough time for yourself. A daddy who is hard up for some time but has time for his girls is better than a daddy who is completely drained and spent and never at home.

3. You will have to find additional customers for your business. Ideally these customers should be close by. Can you do the best ever menu card for the restaurant you are working in? (Yes, you can!) Can you do the best ever newspaper advert for your local garage? (Yes, you can!) Now these examples may not be the right examples in your case, but if you think of the businesses in your area and their printing needs, you may come up with a few ideas. Approach them, make yourself a name in your local area, network, ... . And keep in contact with your old customers and suppliers at the same time.

4. Good luck. I don't run a business but I see quite a few in my job. You'll be there eventually if you can weather it long enough. At the moment it seems to be time to heave to, pump the bilge and wait until the storm blows over.

Joe (SoCal)
12-01-2002, 10:46 PM
OK This may be a bit off the subject now but I just read Peter Malcolms post and then saw his photo in Margo's thread Peter how did you go from Outlaws motorcycle club member to looking like the Mayor of Ontario Canada ? :D
So tell me Peter who looks more like an outlaw you or me smile.gif
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid40/p73bbd56c9c2bd9358448de03ead99512/fcff3fa9.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid40/pd7a606d4e50638363053bd4082121c07/fcfed317.jpg

By the way Lisa and myself thank everyone sincerly for all the kind words

[ 12-01-2002, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

12-01-2002, 11:02 PM

Neither and both. Neither would currently fit in the biker clubhouse (sorry, but sandals, shades a t-shirt and a doorag do not a desperado make), but either of you could be outlaws. ;) tongue.gif ;)

[ 12-02-2002, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

Mike H.
12-01-2002, 11:12 PM
Joe, it sounds like you've gotten some good advice from a lot of people who care about you, so take heart in that. You're a good guy, and you've got a lot going for you. Ride this one out and you'll come out on the other side. You know everyone here is plugging for you, and if things get too tough, take Scott R. up on the offer of professional advice, it might make it look less hopeless to you. Knowledge is power.
Hang in there, and maybe the tide will turn in your favor soon.
You know everyone here loves ya!
PS: We don't mind that you're also "Joe the Bartender", it has a nice ring to it! smile.gif

Wild Dingo
12-02-2002, 08:06 AM
Joe pass me a rum mate! 'old the damned coke and water...

Peter would you please get comfortable!!... suits have a way of makin me noivois!!... Your damn near worryin me in that grand fancy ofishe and whacketty dack suit an tie!! ;) ...Scott bein a lawyer never looked so Lawyerish :eek: ...

Come on truth now Pete mate yer either the flamin Mayor of that there Canada place as Joe says or yer some cheif execitive of some multimullion $$$ conglomerate of some sort... right??...

Joe on the other and... well Joe... Joe sorta looks like a bit of a.... mmmmm gotta thunk on that mate not meanin anythung by that... just gotta thunk on it is all :rolleyes: ...HA!!! nah see joe just he looks like some badassed Nooooo Yorker goin walkees with his pooch on a Sundy arvo... on is day of from buildin wee liddle boats wif his widdle hoon! :D Like our old mate Loon hes a gentle giant with a heart of pure gold...

Keep grinnin mate works wonders! :cool:

Take it easy

John of Phoenix
12-02-2002, 11:03 AM
Joe you've got everything you need to be as successful as you want to be. Come on, tally up what you've got.

At the top of the list, you have a loving wife, an adoring daughter (just LOOK at those eyes!!) and lots of friends. Those are Priceless. Personally, you’ve got good health, youth, talent, business sense, and you even look pretty good in a dress. :D But above all, you’ve got DETERMINATION. You’re a pit bull in that department and that’s your strongest point. That will get you where you want to go. The other stuff is nice, but that persistence ensures your success. As we used to say in the Cavalry, “Failure is not an option.”

On the down side, you’ve got some debt. You’re not the first and you won’t be the last. (Misery loves company. Feel better yet?) Now that didn’t happen overnight, did it? But you’d like it to be resolved in that timeframe, wouldn’t you? Patience Grasshopper, as Norm would say. You’re doing what you need to do, all you need is time. The economy is on the rebound. Slowly to be sure, but recovering and things will get even better.

Finally my .02 on perspective. As I told my co-workers during the crash of ’87, the crashette of ’90 and the current bear market and I say to you in your troubled times, “So far, so good. Ain’t nobody shootin’ at us.”

Hang in there buddy.


...rename your company DDDDC (Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap). Become a design/print rebel, and sell yourself as a media whore. It'll work!

Peter. <SALUTE>

Wild Wassa
12-02-2002, 11:53 AM
Joe, I'm of the opinion that we have a few bad years, only a few. They can lead to amazing changes.

Stay flexible ... and kick boat, Mate. I send my best wishes.


ps, Have an excellent Xmas. I hope Santa brings you a good Next Year. He knows who has been a good boy, ... Joe Cold Spring on Hudson.

[ 12-02-2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

Adam C
12-02-2002, 12:47 PM

Blessed is he that goes through a valley of weeping and turns it into a well.

Take care,


Scott Rosen
12-02-2002, 01:14 PM
I found these words of wisdom in a financial site:

"1. Pay down your debts and start living within your means

2. Start focussing on the quality of your relationships as opposed to the number of your contacts.

3. Recognise that the only person who will be impressed if you own a Penthouse, a Porsche and a Picasso (or even a Mansion, a Mercedes and a Monet) is you. No one else of any consequence really gives a damn. In any event, in the near future, these vulgar displays of wealth are likely to cause more envy than admiration, and this could literally become more dangerous to life and limb than it is worth.

In short, live a balanced life with both modesty and dignity."

Brian Bloom

Ken Hall
12-02-2002, 02:00 PM
Joe, you feel like scum working two jobs to take care of your family because that's what you have to do? Dude, never kick yourself for being a stand-up guy.

Debt is something that can happen. Hang in there. I moonlighted (?) as a gym floor supervisor at a JCC for almost three years when things were tight. I'd pump gas if I had to. It will get better.

Milo Christensen
12-09-2006, 04:24 PM
Wow. Note the date of the original post. Way to go Joe! From waiter to part owner in 4 years!

jack grebe
12-09-2006, 05:36 PM

Ken Hutchins
12-09-2006, 06:33 PM
I remember when Joe was down and out.:) The way he has really turned things around is truely amazing and proof that people can make big changes IF they really want to. Joe wanted to change and he really did. Way to go Joe.:) :) :) :)

George Roberts
12-09-2006, 06:39 PM
Luck is a good part of success. Joe appears to have some.

12-09-2006, 06:40 PM
The key to success must be the ability to sail and post on the internet at the same time. :)

Joe (SoCal)
12-09-2006, 07:27 PM
Wow. Note the date of the original post. Way to go Joe! From waiter to part owner in 4 years!

Skeptical and curiouse as to why Milo would dredge this thread back up again. He is not one of my fans on this forum and it was a very sensitive time that I posted that howl from the pit of my soul.

We all have had our hard times and that was one of mine, Im sure I will have some more. But I may not be so apt to share them on this forum since I have become such a target for some and the true sincerity gets lost now in the pokes and jabs of the usual suspects.

I have to go we have a packed house and the bar is full and the holiday spirt flows like the spirits across the bar. I know who my friends are on this forum and to those who know me my sincere thanks for sticking by me through the lean as well as the flush times.

Happy holidays to all.

12-09-2006, 08:30 PM
I don't know the reasons either, but I thought it was a good re-read. Sort of a 'rags-to-riches, back-to-rags, and back-to-riches again' success story!

Besides... I missed the part before about PMJ being a badass biker dude. :D

jack grebe
12-09-2006, 08:36 PM
Life's a Trip.....Enjoy the Ride:D So there's a bump from time to
time.......No big deal

12-09-2006, 08:50 PM
Inspirational AGAIN, Joe.

Hold your head high ... you swallowed your pride (better than most would EVER do) to protect your family.

Admiration from me ... to be sure.


Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-09-2006, 08:56 PM
Hey Joe.... I kinda thought this thread was kinda cool to see again. You've done well brother.... looks good on you;)

12-09-2006, 09:03 PM
Looks can be decieving.
Joe knows I'll always have his back, even when I bust his chops to his face.
And I still say that "Sushi" is passe, and you need to ride the new wave.

12-09-2006, 09:24 PM
What "8" said! :)

Osborne Russell
12-09-2006, 10:00 PM
The part about one key and enough money for beer --

It is rather melancholy to contemplate. Seems to be no such thing as one key, beer and a little bit more . . . Seems to be a point past which you're enslaving yourself and you don't know it, and that point comes much quicker than you think.

Phil Heffernan
12-09-2006, 11:41 PM
Life's a Trip.....Enjoy the Ride:D So there's a bump from time to
time.......No big deal

That's true Joe...People appreciated your honesty in 2002, and still are impressed by the committment to 'full disclosure' 4 years later...you have treated those on the WBF as friends and confidants, and though I'd never seen the original post in 2002, thanks Milo for bringing it back...Joe, I remember your troubles back then...

And though times change, we all still have our demons to slay, our questions to answer, our tragedies to live through...As the man says "It's always SOMETHIN'"...

As my Pop used to say, 'Stay Loose'...I think it was a pilot phrase, from WW II...


Milo Christensen
12-10-2006, 09:12 AM
Joe, there is no reason to be skeptical. Periodically I like to look back at how the forum has changed over the years. A lot of the changes have to do with how we've all changed and adapted and overcome, or not, as is sometimes the case. I thought it was rather inspirational to think of where you were and how far you've come. The stories others have posted here are also good ones.

My story is different, but similar. The winter of 2002 was the low point of my life. Unemployed, broke, in debt up to my ears, separated, in the process of divorcing. Four years later, I'm working, I've paid off my credit card debt, I'm looking forward to a comfortable retirement, and I'm very, very happily married.

So, my friend, from someone who's been there, done that, and doesn't want the T-shirt, Merry Christmas and a very Happy, Healthy, and Prosperous New Year.

Sue H.
12-10-2006, 09:27 AM
Joe, you know how MJC likes to bump those old threads! ;)

He's got a point on this one, though. You've come a long way, baby! Continued success to you.

Are you taking those power naps?:D

12-10-2006, 09:28 AM
I'd say Joe is the comeback kid. Since when is there dishonor in doing what's necessary to take care of your family and responsibilities? I thought that was part of being an adult. Money comes and goes. Integrity and self-respect are much harder to reclaim.

You guys make fun of my age, but I've lived enough to know that you life can change in a split second. Sometimes what you think is one of the worst moments in your life is the catalyst to a whole new adventure.

George Jung
12-10-2006, 09:35 AM
Nicely put, Milo (and I'm not sure any here knew of your troubles); one of the big problems I see here, perhaps more than in 'real life', where interpersonal encounters really are, is a tendency to speak more bluntly, offer more polarized views, and a proclivity to declare 'us' vs 'them'. I don't agree with everything Joe (or most of the rest of you!) says, but you do bring a certain 'enthusiasm' to the discussions here, and you (as all) do have your strong points. You've said it before: there probably isn't a person on this forum you couldn't enjoy a beer with, and enjoy the conversation. That said, I think we all reveal more about ourselves here than perhaps we should; it's perhaps revealing just how comfortable feel on this forum. It's our community.

Joe (SoCal)
12-10-2006, 09:41 AM
Joe, there is no reason to be skeptical. Periodically I like to look back at how the forum has changed over the years. A lot of the changes have to do with how we've all changed and adapted and overcome, or not, as is sometimes the case. I thought it was rather inspirational to think of where you were and how far you've come. The stories others have posted here are also good ones.

My story is different, but similar. The winter of 2002 was the low point of my life. Unemployed broke, in debt up to my ears, separated, in the process of divorcing. Four years later, I'm working, I've paid off my credit card debt, I'm looking forward to a comfortable retirement, and I'm very, very happily married.

So, my friend, from someone who's been there, done that, and doesn't want the T-shirt, Merry Christmas and a very Happy, Healthy, and Prosperous New Year.

Fair enough Milo,

In reading the opening of this thread I felt a little melancholy at the openness I once shared on this forum. It seems now many of us have fallen into characters of our personas on this forum. I fault myself with falling for the brash Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaa Ha Ha character I have become. It is simple to say there is more dimension to all of us on here than solely what we post.

It is hard to open up on a forum once you have received threatening emails and anonymous letters sent to people in my town and the daily barbs from dare I say people like you Milo ;) . Hey trust me I know I'm no saint and I can dish it out with the best and I have been known to push a few buttons myself. But I never take it beyond this forum. Hey I may have cast myself in this roll and I will have to live with it. But it was refreshing to read how 4 years ago I was able to be totally open and honest and howl into the void and hear back.

I have a lot going on in my life currently and it's far more than I share anymore on this forum, that’s sad but I guess it’s smart.

All the best to you and yours

Joe, just Joe.

Ed Harrow
12-10-2006, 09:50 AM
Nicely done, Milo.

Interesting, your comment re 'looking back'. An interesting exercise for certain. Enlightening, also, to look back at the history of an individual's postings.

Oh, and congrats Joe. With a bit of polishing you might yet turn into a smooth charecter, LOL.

12-10-2006, 09:59 AM
With a bit of polishing you might yet turn into a smooth character, LOL.What, the glare of his chrome dome isn't blinding enough already? :D

As for bottom of the soul howls, a good many of us have posted them here. It often helps to let it out. The fact that some use it against you later shows just how pathetic their characters are.

jack grebe
12-10-2006, 10:00 AM
I don't agree with everything Joe (or most of the rest of you!) says, THATS the understatement of the year:rolleyes:

George Jung
12-10-2006, 10:02 AM
THATS the understatement of the year:rolleyes:

Care to expand? I didn't think I'd been that controversial...

jack grebe
12-10-2006, 10:06 AM
Care to expand? I didn't think I'd been that controversial...Not directed at you at all..... most people here do not agree with most of what is said here. If they did it wouldn't much of a discussion;)

12-10-2006, 10:06 AM
Not here guys, please.

12-10-2006, 10:07 AM
I just found this thread this morning. Peter Jardine's story sure hit me in a familiar spot. Pete, you been reading my mail?

I got a ways down some of those paths. Three weeks in county jail, out with a total net worth of $1.71. Spent a week sleeping under a stolen plastic tarp next to a woodpile before someone called the police. In late February, in New England. Dont know why I didnt die, actually.

Walked the roads picking up aluminum cans, eating on the fly in the grocery store until they caught me with some shoplifted cheese and banned me. That time was pretty tough.

How you doing now, Pete? Still keeping it together?

jack grebe
12-10-2006, 10:10 AM
Not here guys, please.what:confused:

12-10-2006, 10:12 AM
what:confused:Save the argument with Jung for another thread.

George Jung
12-10-2006, 10:13 AM
That's the problem with those darned emoticons, eh, Jack? Don't fret, Kitty. All's cool!;)

jack grebe
12-10-2006, 10:18 AM
Save the argument with Jung for another thread.What argument???? it was just a misunderstanding of the meaning. I have no problem with GJ:cool:

12-10-2006, 10:20 AM
Alright, I stand corrected.:)

jack grebe
12-10-2006, 10:25 AM
I'll let ya slide this time;)

12-10-2006, 10:32 AM
I wasnt aware of Joe's problems back then.What he's done since shows grit.I always admire grit, even if I dont agree with someones stance on an issue.Joe and I have butted heads,But I also have seen his sensitive side,its there he just hides it most times.
You only lose the race when you stop trying.

Bob Cleek
12-10-2006, 02:23 PM
Proof that what doesn't kill you outright will only make you stronger!

12-10-2006, 02:48 PM
You've got some very good advice here Joe. I briefly read most of the posts. Lots of love here Joe, (hey,even us Buddhists love our fellow man). My thoughts include: 1. maintaining an exercise schedule and a time to just sit quietly and enjoy the view, even if only 20 minutes a day, 2. Making a list of stuff to do/pay off. Break it down into doable portions, maybe daily tasks. Cross off each accomplished task 3. Be satisfied with a reasonable day's work, don't fret about what you have to accomplish overall, just one day at a time, and QUIT WORKING each day in time to relax a little 3. Take time to laugh and play with your family. 4. as long as you, your wife and your daughter have your health you're fine.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-11-2006, 07:46 PM
I just found this thread this morning. Peter Jardine's story sure hit me in a familiar spot. Pete, you been reading my mail?

I got a ways down some of those paths. Three weeks in county jail, out with a total net worth of $1.71. Spent a week sleeping under a stolen plastic tarp next to a woodpile before someone called the police. In late February, in New England. Dont know why I didnt die, actually.

Walked the roads picking up aluminum cans, eating on the fly in the grocery store until they caught me with some shoplifted cheese and banned me. That time was pretty tough.

How you doing now, Pete? Still keeping it together?

Almost sixteen years sober... I still drop in on the boys now and then and say hi. We're still friends... the ones that aren't in prison or dead, or insane. Life is good.

Dryer lint
12-11-2006, 07:52 PM
As it is Thanksgiving Day- I think you, me, and every one in our country should be thankful for what they have. First of all health- if you are lucky enough to have it. What would happen if you or your wife came down with a debilitating illness? The days you are living through right now would seem rosey in comparison.
My business has had its ups and downs as has any one who has a small business- I have had to take on jobs which I thought my education and experience was above, but ya know what? I was thankful that those part time jobs were there. And I wasnt ashamed of a damn thing when explaining to friends what I was doing. There is no shame in honest work whether its tending bar , delivering pizzas, or sweeping floors. Any one who thinks different is a snob who may someday have their own day of reckoning. Keep that in mind Joe

this guy seems a true friend to you joe:)

Michael s/v Sannyasin
12-11-2006, 08:33 PM
Well, this was an interesting thread... thanks(?!) to Milo for resurrecting it.

I haven't been around long enough to have seen this go through the first time, but from what I've read of your posts, you've developed a very positive way of dealing with adversity in life... perhaps coming out of this experience.

It's an old adage, but they say that there are different ways of dealing with "problems"... you can try to butt heads with them, you can curl up in a fetal position and pretend they don't exist, you can try to run as fast as you can away from them. Or, you can simply face them, though that may be the last thing you want to do. It's not the "problem" that is important, but the way you deal with the problem that is important.

I don't waste my time thinking "how did I get here?", I just ask myself what is it that I'm suppose to learn from this experience. When I was in similar circumstances (though, with a lot less responsiblity than you) I decided that it was time I ate some humble pie and learned a little humility.

I worked 10 hours a day as a programmer, then worked the night shift at a Whole Foods market cutting cheese (OK, no jokes about "who cut the cheese"), and, when I could get it, I tried waiting tables at a Japanese restaurant next door to the Whole Foods place. What a lesson in humility!

I worked my ass off for meeger tips, but because I wanted to pay off my debts. I could have defaulted, just took the hit on the credit report, but it was a matter of honor... so, I worked until I paid everything off. In the process, I learned that I'm no better or worse than the other person waiting tables, and I'd happily do that again, because it is an honorable, and honest job. I also learned that to treat your wait/person with some respect pays huge dividends in the end!

So, glad to bear witness to your success story! Just slow down a little in (life) the car OK? Sitting 20 minutes quietly before putting yourself in motion (in the morning, or on the way home) will ensure that Tess grows old with you :-)

12-11-2006, 11:54 PM
When my 1st marriage was over,( I threw her out),I wound up with a fork, a spoon,a table knife,a plate,a skilet.And one single size bed.
I also wound up with all the bills.
The 1st thing I did was call all my creditors and explain my situation to which each one stated that I had signed a contract and that I had to pay on time.
Which forced me into bankruptsy.I went to court ,was declared bankrupt,then turned around and went back to each and every creditor I had filed on and reafirmed each dollar I had owed before the bankruptsy.I didnt have to,but thats the way I was raised.I didnt file to get away from my debts,but to force my creditors to allow me to pay as best I could until they were all paid off. It took me several years to get out from under.But when I did get free,I knew I had done it the right way.