Plain speaking about gay cowboys

[ishmael]

Brokeback Mountin'!

By Rip Rense
mail@riprense.com
1-6-6

I'm a homophobe.

That's the verdict rendered, apparently, just because I don't want to see "Brokeback Mountain."

I suppose not wanting to see films fraught with chain-saw killings makes me a murderphobe. I suppose not wanting to see romantic tear-jerkers about women's love affairs makes me a femalephobe. Not wanting to see movies about idiotic young people makes me an idioticyoungpeoplephobe.

Hey, I'm not being paranoid here. George Weinberg, the very psychologist who coined the term, "homophobe," says I'm one.

The evidence? My aversion to seeing "Brokeback Mountain," which is a film about two cowpokes who like to poke each other. Brokeback Mountin'! Whoops---there I go, making light of homosexual encounters! Only a homophobe would do such a thing.

Dr. Weinberg, the New York City psychologist and author of "Society and the Healthy Homosexual," says this is "definitely homophobia," and he offers the following advice:

"First understand you have this problem," he explained in a Newhouse News Service article. "At least by acknowledging it, that's a start. It's like saying, 'I have a fear of heights."'

I have no problem acknowledging my fear of heights. I grip the railing at the Grand Canyon. But as long as I'm not in prison, I have no fear of homosexuals.

And you know, I keep trying to talk myself into believing that psychotherapy is a constructive thing, at least for some people who have suffered severe trauma, but then guys like Weinberg pop up (so to speak.)

Of course, he would undoubtedly say I have undue hostility toward him, and that this is a mask for repressed homosexuality.

Look, I hate "Brokeback Mountain." That's my review. I don't care if Orson Welles came back from the dead to direct it. I have not seen it, will not see it, and I believe it to be an abomination. Not because it depicts two male homosexuals in a sincere love affair (sorry, Dr. Weinberg.) Big deal! I was aware long before "Brokeback Mountain" that persons of the same gender can and do commit to one another out of lust, and even love, sometimes for a lifetime.

The thing that bothers me here is that this movie is what passes for important social commentary in this stupid society. I put the discourse generated somewhere between banal and puerile---which, of course, is just right for a country obsessed with "intelligent design," abortion, and democratizing the world.

I mean, never mind that Uncle Sam is bankrupt and in hock to Saudi Arabia, China. Never mind New Orleans. Never mind the Jesus freaks and Israel shills running the government. Never mind Iraq. Never mind "music" about murder and rape pumping into the brains of millions of kids. Let's talk about homosexuals tongue-kissing!

Yes, all across the nation, people---well, women people---are declaring, "Oh, I really, really want to see 'Brokeback Mountain.'" I hear it constantly. Well, why do you want to see it? Is it news to you that homosexuals exist? Have you really really never seen a love story before? Or is this just a way of declaring what a humanitarian, egalitarian, wonderful soul you are because you will pay $10.50 to see a flick about a couple of guys who want to get into one another's chaps?

(There is a play on words that comes to mind here, involving "chick flick" and the vice-president's first name, but we'll skip that.)

And then there is the refrain that is rattling (heterosexual) marriages across the land: "Why does this movie upset you so much, Honey? Does it threaten your manhood?"

Well, speaking for myself, I don't have too much manhood left. It was largely stolen by political correctness and Affirmative Action that denied me a number of jobs and promotions because I was not a female, and not a minority---or at least in one case, not a female minority. But I do what I can---some days I don't even shave or say "please" and "thank you"---but I don't fool anybody, I guess.

Still, the fact that two good ol' fu---er, that is, buckaroos---tongue-kiss one another on the big screen does not threaten my masculinity. It does several other things, though. First, it threatens, or at least insults, my intelligence to be put in the position of having to react to this as though it is an important event in the world.

And yes, it sickens me. I am hard-wired (paging Dr. Freud) to find the sight of two men smooching to be repugnant, disturbing. The DNA strand reading "No possible procreation here" lights up, and my brain command center's "WRONG" receptors are overloaded. This is the heterosexual machinery, functioning as intended.

Yes, as intended.

Of course, the intellectuals and experts challenge this, too. Consider:

"It does seem to be almost culturally universal that heterosexual men can have a deep repulsion to overt homosexuality," said Dean Hamer, scientist and author of "The Science of Desire: The Gay Gene and the Biology of Behavior."

(Good, Dean! You're quite a keen observer of your fellow man, and perhaps their jeans.)

"But," he added, "there is no study I know of to ascertain whether this is a biologically based trait."

Brilliant! These eggheads always throw that out: "no study," "no evidence." No evidence other than the behavior of billions of humans throughout history, that's all. Well, Dean, nobody ever taught me that homosexuality was evil. It's a wonder I turned out "straight." And by the way, what a slyly pejorative term that is, eh? As in "straight and narrow," unimaginative, unadventurous. Not a very gay idea! Funny how it has been picked up by the media as a conventional term. . .

But disregard this rant, as I'm just a homophobe. Never mind that I have no problem with "gay marriage." Never mind that some of my best friends. . .well, you get the drift.

Or maybe you don't.

Take my dear old friend, Donna (please), who has stopped speaking to me because of "Brokeback Mountain!" Really. Now, Donna is a nice lady, and a brilliant author/writer, but whenever I express an opinion with which she disagrees, she gets snippy, and sends little repressed hostilities my way in the form of e-mail.

The other day, I asked her what movies she had seen. She gave me a list. I wrote back that I didn't know some of them, liked others, intended to see still others, but would not see "Brokeback Mountain."

"I find the sight of two men kissing to be repugnant," I wrote. Of course, I added "I find the sight of a man and woman kissing to be almost as repugnant," but I guess that didn't help. I received a crisp note informing me that I was "proselytizing." What's more, she had not asked my opinion about the movies, and requested that I do not "proselytize" in future e-mails.

She finished this with the veneer of civility: thnx."

Worried, I wrote back, asking her why she reacted with such um. . .intolerance. That I thought we were just having that most ubiquitous of L.A. conversations: the movie chat.
No reply!

Hey, Donna, guess what: I'm proselytizing again! Thnx yourself!

See? "Brokeback Mountain" is breaking people apart. But then, that's what it is designed to do-or at least, that's what the studio and PR departments hoped would happen. They loftily call it "provoking controversy," of course, and claim they are making people re-think stereotypes. (Translation: they are making money.)

Hey, I'm rethinking a stereotype because of this film. I mean, was John Wayne swaggering or swishing? This gives whole new implications to yeee-ha, doesn't it? The Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Cowboys should sue. Or maybe not. "Brokeback," after all, plays like a comic horse opera. It's like what Letterman said the other night, in summarizing the plot---something like "these two cowboys go out and have a rough day on the range, roundin' up dogies, then at the end of the day, they go home, and they kiss." That's a howl.

And the clips of "Brokeback" dialogue I've heard on radio break me up. They sound like an old Richard Pryor album. Two crusty, gruff, masculine cowhands mutter in taciturn cowboy cadence---you know, with the wide open spaces between their sentences---about how they "cain't" let this feelin' come over 'em agin. . .

This had me on the floor, in full homophobic seizure.

And if that bothers you, Dr. Weinberg, I'd say that probably makes you a heterophobe.

[Tristan]

Guess I'm a homophobe too. The idea of watching two big hairy cowpokes getting romantic with each other is not my idea of entertainment. Seems like a real turnoff.

[Meerkat]

Least they ain't pokin' cows - or sheep! :D

[uncas]

So...Meer where does the term Cow poke come from.
Actually...the movie has gotten great reviews...I can overlook those parts which appear to be overly sensative...I guess it comes down to having confidence in my own sexuality....
Different strokes for different folks.
I may just go see it....except for the 7.50...or whatever...no skin off my teeth...no don't go there Meer.

[Bob Cleek]

My pooper's a "one way street." Anybody driving something the wrong way up a one way street scares the hell out of me. Am I a homophobe too?

[Memphis Mike]

Trying everything you can to get the twisted little sense of attention you think huh Jack?

[uncas]

Some of you guys should go visit Provincetown MA.

[Meerkat]

"Overly sensitive?" You mean like when 2 guys are kissing? If that bothers you, don't go to Europe, especially France! ;)

Got taken to a gay bar in Denver once. My incredulous eyes beheld about 3 dozen cowboy clones, all virtually identically clad in cowboy boots (of course!), jeans, white shirt and stenson, all doing the 2-step with each other. I was laughing so hard I had to leave the bar (alone!). :D

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Bob Cleek:
My pooper's a "one way street." Anybody driving something the wrong way up a one way street scares the hell out of me. Am I a homophobe too?It depends - how do you feel about oral sex? :D

[Memphis Mike]

Originally posted by Bob Cleek:
My pooper's a "one way street." Anybody driving something the wrong way up a one way street scares the hell out of me. Am I a homophobe too?You should move. :eek:

[botebum]

MM- :D :D :D :D

Doug

[uncas]

Now Bill said that oral sex wasn't sex....
Ya...know...I really don't care...gay men don't come on to me...I don't come on to them...I wish a few good looking women would...but for the first part...the actions of gays and lesbians don't bother me in the slightest...
I have a lot of gay friends....we have a lot in common other than our attractions to either the opposite sex or the same sex....We all know where we stand...never an issue or a problem...
So...what is the big deal...other than some are just a wee bit insecure...

[Meerkat]

:eek: Don't bring up the small wee wee insecurity! :eek:

:D

[Katherine]

I never really cared whether a person was gay, straight, or somewhere in between. Never figured it was any of my business. That said, I've never been a big fan by overly affectionate displays by couples in public, either gay or straight. Get a freakin room people! :D

[uncas]

Ah...it's the Bilge...the BIlge...the BILge...the BILGe....the BILGE! What the heck do ya expect....

[Katherine]

Yep, the bilge is full of wee wee.

[Meerkat]

Can't say I think much of PDA's either.

As long as it doesn't involve murder, maiming, children or animals, I don't care much what people do with each other. Can't say I think much of some of those things though.

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Katherine:
Yep, the bilge is full of wee wee.Oh well, if that bothers you, come on up to the poop deck! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Katherine]

You need to get a head, so you keep posting Meer. :D

Heck, these days I'd settle for a private display of affection. :rolleyes:

[ 01-08-2006, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Katherine ]

[ishmael]

Mike,

I like good attention, as we all do. You didn't post Hillary For President! when brushing your teeth.

Every once in awhile I run across a writer who speaks plainly. This guy does, about this issue. He's still working on his style, but that's okay. Most of it is pretty well constructed; I can tell it took time. I liked it, I agreed with the sentiment, I posted it. Period.

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by ishmael:
I posted it. Period.Always good to know when you're having a period, Ish. :D

[botebum]

Kat- check your pms for a private display ;)

Doug

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by botebum:
Kat- check your pms for a private display ;)

DougPMS?!?!?
:eek: :eek: :eek:

:D

[Katherine]

Careful Doug, some guys who PM me seem to disappear. ;)

Meer :D

[ 01-08-2006, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Katherine ]

[Tristan]

Originally posted by Tristan:
Guess I'm a homophobe too. The idea of watching two big hairy cowpokes getting romantic with each other is not my idea of entertainment. Seems like a real turnoff.Having gay friends, that's no problem. One of my best friends of all for the past 50 years is gay. Sometimes he kids about being gay, tells gay jokes, it's all fine, but I don't think I'd enjoy watching what has been described by some reviewers as "fairly rough gay sex." Anal intercourse? Jeezus, seeing that would probably set my anal sphincter up like a band of steel and I'd be constipated for a week. Oh yeah, I avoid the horror films, realistic war movies, rape films, etc. Guess I'm getting old and crabby. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[ 01-08-2006, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Tristan ]

[uncas]

OKAY...have not seen the movie...I read a lot of posts...against it....but have any of those posted after seeing it...or are the posts based upon their own feelings..and not for having actually seen it...? Are all of you reading more into it than you should....

[adampet]

So a movie review from someone who hasn't seen the movie! Guess it's worh what he paid for it. Of course no where in that rant does he say how he feels about two women kissing... Nope no procreation possible there... Gimme a break. :rolleyes:

[Katherine]

Looks like some places won't be showing the movie.

Utah Theater Cancels Movie (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060108/ap_on_en_mo/brokeback_canceled)

[ishmael]

I'm not agin seeing it. Not like our friend and author, Mr. Rense. Just haven't wasted my dinero on a theatre since the first Lord of the Rings, and ain't about to stop my movie-miser ways now, for what has been descibed ad nauseum on the toob.

If there is a homosexual agenda in the media it would likely have been better served by other than remaking the Marlboro Man as light in his jodhpurs.

[ 01-08-2006, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Saw a cowboy movie once. Starred Charelton Heston.
He played a 50 year old cowboy who was illiterate, unsanitary and always fought dirty. Clouted one guy in the noggin with a frying pan, as I recall. He fell in love with Dianne Cielinto but in the end wouldn't go off and marry her because being 50 meant he wouldn't survive much more than a couple of years. A real slice of life that film was.
Sure didn't make cowboyin' very attractive.

Charlie

[Chris Coose]

Headed downtown in a few minutes. Looks like the best choise at the theater I'm going to. If Capote was there I'd be looking to see that one.
Maybe I'm a homo.
I'll write a review when I return, that is If I don't head for the Easter Prom where they cruise around at night.

[High C]

Originally posted by Chris Coose:
...I'm a homo...:D

[botebum]

High C- I quit laughin' at twits like you in 7th grade.

Doug

[Meerkat]

HiC likes to play in the back bay! :D

[High C]

Originally posted by botebum:
High C- I quit laughin' at twits like you in 7th grade.

DougYou know, Doug, I've tried to reach out to you with personal things about Holden Beach, and you've ignored it.

Welcome to the WBF. You fit right in.

[Bob Cleek]

Unfortunately, the content of popular literature, movies included, has gone down the ****ter. How long has it been since we've seen a Shakespeare, Twain or Melville, not to mention many others. Now it's all just about shock value and "gee wiz!" special effects. Very little great literature around, I'm afraid. Daniel Steele and Grisham and even Anne Rice are all just pot boilers and trashy at that. Now, they're making smarmy romance movies for the "butt bandits" in order to get some attention. Sorry, I'm no prude, just very, very bored by the current crop of crap.

[High C]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
HiC likes to play in the back bay! :D JT, a Backbay and Harbor Boy.... ;) :D

[High C]

Originally posted by botebum:
...I quit...7th grade.

Dougtongue.gif :D

[ 01-08-2006, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: High C ]

[Meerkat]

It's going to take at least 100 years before anyone now living might be thought of as another Shakesphere.

As for "butt bandit", if it's freely given, where's the banditry? tongue.gif

[Bruce Hooke]

Oh good grief...no there's nothing wrong with you if you simply don't feel like going to see any particular movie, and no it is not right for someone to try to put a guilt trip on another person if they don't want to see a particular movie. I haven't seen any movies in over a year. I'm just not that into movies. HOWEVER, I do start to wonder about someone who feels the need to get all defensive about not wanting to go and see a movie.

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by High C:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Meerkat:
HiC likes to play in the back bay! :D JT, a Backbor(e) Boy.... ;) :D </font>[/QUOTE]:D :D

[botebum]

HiC-Thought about sending you a note or two in regards to Holden Beach but your email isn't available through your profile and then suddenly I notice that you're talking mean sh!t to someone and I realize that I didn't really want to talk to you that badly in the first place. Maybe if you were nicer to your neighbors we could chat.

Doug

[High C]

Originally posted by botebum:
HiC-Thought about sending you a note or two in regards to Holden Beach but your email isn't available through your profile and then suddenly I notice that you're talking mean sh!t to someone and I realize that I didn't really want to talk to you that badly in the first place. Maybe if you were nicer to your neighbors we could chat.

DougMan, if you think I'm one of the meanies here, you have a really low threshold for that sort of thing! :D

Realize that this is a group that has been gnawing on each other (no wise cracks, Meer) for years. It ain't always pretty, lots of banter that may look a little harsh to newcomers. But deep down, we're all just a bunch of horny cowboys. ;)

(I don't know what happened to my email link, it used to be there. I'll try to put it back up)

[Donn]

Originally posted by Bob Cleek:
How long has it been since we've seen a Shakespeare, Twain or Melville, not to mention many others.Apparently, you just don't know where to look. We've had authors and playwrights every bit the equal of those 3, in the past 50 years.

[High C]

Originally posted by Donn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bob Cleek:
How long has it been since we've seen a Shakespeare, Twain or Melville, not to mention many others.Apparently, you just don't know where to look. We've had authors and playwrights every bit the equal of those 3, in the past 50 years.</font>[/QUOTE]Indeed. For instance, take the Shakesphere that Meerkat mentioned.

[ishmael]

Bob,

The coarsening of the culture is of great concern to me. As Rense mentions, we are pumping murder, and rape and all other vile mayhem into our young folk's minds. And our adult minds, too. For one reason, because it sells. And the chandler has lost his moral compass; become a pimp to the lowest in us. Under a banner of freedom of expression! How twisted is that?

The thing I fear most is a backlash. A society can't go on pumping the trash, people wake up, say no more! Then, the party is over. When it happens, it ain't gonna be pretty.

[LeeG]

I can feel your concern. Somehow you've moved from a movie with bisexual content to murder mayhem and rape. It's all just mixed up isn't it?

My girlfriend (paramedic) got a call for a dead 1yr old child killed by the mothers boyfriend.

Must be those gay/bi movies.

[ 01-08-2006, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: LeeG ]

[ishmael]

You keep emulating, Lee. Someday, you might actually feel something on your own.

[ 01-08-2006, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[LeeG]

Maybe the chandler can use a sweep broom,
to sweep up the trash and fears.

[ 01-08-2006, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: LeeG ]

[Chris Coose]

Woops! Sold out.
I'll bet if I could have got past the ticket guard I could have found a lap to sit in.

[Chris Coose]

Originally posted by ishmael:
Bob,

The coarsening of the culture is of great concern to me. As Rense mentions, we are pumping murder, and rape and all other vile mayhem into our young folk's minds. And our adult minds, too. For one reason, because it sells. And the chandler has lost his moral compass; become a pimp to the lowest in us. Under a banner of freedom of expression! How twisted is that?

The thing I fear most is a backlash. A society can't go on pumping the trash, people wake up, say no more! Then, the party is over. When it happens, it ain't gonna be pretty.What do you think invasion and occupation of a soverign nation causes?

[LeeG]

voodoo, voodoo I say!

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113649645107138940-Ku05eyOWs5xFbqD33aaAarliwqo_20060112.html?mod=blog s

[JimD]

Originally posted by Cuyahoga Chuck:
Saw a cowboy movie once. Starred Charelton Heston.
He played a 50 year old cowboy who was illiterate, unsanitary and always fought dirty. Clouted one guy in the noggin with a frying pan, as I recall. He fell in love with Dianne Cielinto but in the end wouldn't go off and marry her because being 50 meant he wouldn't survive much more than a couple of years. A real slice of life that film was.
Sure didn't make cowboyin' very attractive.

CharlieI believe the movie was titled 'Will Penny', one of Heston's better ones. Watch for the remake 'Will and Grace and Penny'

[ishmael]

Chris,

Well, first of all, Iraq, by international law, wasn't a sovereign nation. It was under UN mandate, and Saddam reneged on his agreements, repeatedly. The jolly boys at the UN not only went along, they made money.

Aside from those niceties, I think the situation sucks! I don't want to be at war. I certainly don't like the way this war is going. But here we are. What's your brilliant solution? Don't tell me we never should have gone. I'm starting to agree with that view. But what are we going to do now?

[ 01-08-2006, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[LeeG]

get upset over bisexual cowboys

[ 01-08-2006, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: LeeG ]

[brad9798]

I'm watching TOMBSTONE right now ... at least one gay cowboy in that.

And I have that movie memorized.

[ishmael]

Now wait a darn tootin' minute here, Brad. Who you callin' gay in "Tombstone?" Or did you mean the real meaning of "gay" as in lighthearted, free?

I'm thinking on that definition too. Aside from some of the women characters, that film isn't very gay. smile.gif

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Yes, Heston played Will Penny.
Penny was jocular at times but never very gay.

Charlie

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Chris Coose:
Woops! Sold out.
I'll bet if I could have got past the ticket guard I could have found a lap to sit in.Yeah, but it might have been a real PITA! ;) :D

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by ishmael:

Well, first of all, Iraq, by international law, wasn't a sovereign nation. It was under UN mandate, and Saddam reneged on his agreements, repeatedly. You need to buy a better brand of booze. This isn't even a very good delusion. tongue.gif

[ishmael]

The truth hurts.

[StevenBauer]

I went to the 12:30 matinee yesterday to see Narnia with the kids and the theatre manager was telling people in line that he had 6 tickets left for the 9:15 showing of "Brokeback" all the other shows were soldout!
We all loved Narnia, though. smile.gif

Steven

[LeeG]

Originally posted by ishmael:
The truth hurts.the truth is, delusion hurts

[ 01-09-2006, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: LeeG ]

[ishmael]

Ooh, deep, man.

Say something worthy of criticism, Lee. I'm betting you have it in you. So far, I've been proved wrong, but I keep hoping.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Jack, if you thought any one had it in them, you're either getting help, or that person is in trouble. :(

[ishmael]

I'm trying to follow along here, Peter. But that made no sense, even in my tweaked imaginings. :confused:

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I will admit that someone's opinion and logic on one matter will get challenged by their record on another. ;)

[ishmael]

Start with the "another" if you think you have something to say. Something reasonably logical when talking about reason.

I'm all for experimenting, but not when you are conveying ideas in linear fashion. I haven't a clue what you were talking 'bout. Even when I open, and I can get pretty open.

[Paul G]

brokeback mountain sounds like a great marketing exercise in grabbing a few pink dollars. Every gay chappie out there will see it and all the curious and pc heteros. Forgetabout it....simply another money grab(if yer dumb enough to see it)

[uncas]

Steven...saw Narnia last weekend....A funb flick...I am surprised though that it was rated for children....Personally, I think it was more for the parents than the kids... :D

now we gotta get the kids to read all of the books....starting with The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe...

[ 01-09-2006, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[TomF]

I do find the different reactions to lesbian and male homosexual sex fascinating. A bunch of us hetero-males seem perfectly fine with the concept that gay male sex can and does occur, but we'd rather not watch. On the other hand, "The L Word" has an audience that casts a pretty wide net.

Why the difference?

[ 01-09-2006, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: TomF ]

[uncas]

I don't know.....
I do find it interesting that no one who has posted has...at least not admitted to seeing

A lot of gut reactions....out there....
I wonder what a gay couple feels about going to a movie which displays heterosexual activities....? The same way as many post here.... :eek:

[ishmael]

I'm an equal opportunity homophobe. The attraction to lesbians by men a bit of a ponder. But I got cuckholded by a lesbian relationship, once, so my take may be colored.

[Ian McColgin]

The thread title is "Plain speaking about gay cowboys" and Rense's own title is the more honestly sniggering "Brokeback Mountin'!" But does either address the film?

Despite the sniggering start, Rense claims to not like the movie because "this movie is what passes for important social commentary in this stupid society." Rense then manages some bewilderingly trivializing swipes at issues that are genuine as if the fact that a cowboy relationship story has anything to do with any of that. By Rense's amazingly dumb measure, "Romeo and Juliet" and "Hamlet" have "discourse generated somewhere between banal and puerile . . "

I don't see how Rense can claim he'll never see the movie and still claim that "I'm rethinking a stereotype because of this film. I mean, was John Wayne swaggering or swishing?"

Perhaps Rense missed that part in the Birdcage where Robin Williams coaches Nathan Lane in the John Wayne swagger.

"Brokeback Mountain" is a relationship film. Not the answer to everything.

This film does not pump murder anywhere, yet when Chris Coose provided an example of our government pumping murder in Iraq, instead of attempting a case for the irrelevance of the analogy (which of course would undercut the scant relevance of Rense's social commentary diversion) Ishmael came back with the false statement that, "Iraq, by international law, wasn't a sovereign nation." LeeG and Peter both try to help Ishmael see that this remark is factually untrue. Ishmael eventually admits that "I haven't a clue what you were talking 'bout."

Rense's sniggering title is at least more honest than Ishmael's, but Ishmael's obdurate irrelevancies echo Rense's. Neither has anything to do with the movie. Neither offers a relevant critique of the movie in our cultural context. And, regarding homophobia, they both protest too much.

[ishmael]

Sorry, Ian, but Iraq wasn't a sovereign nation after GW I. It was a subject of the UN, Nato, the U.S. and Great Britian. That idiot, Saddam did everything in his power to break the terms of truce. The fellow idiots at the UN did everything in their power to line their own pockets.

You don't like it when power gets in high places, and corrupts. Me either. But to imagine, in some Birkenstock dream, that it will all work out is fatuous.

Back to Rense's rant. He's right. Homosexuallity makes me a little ill. Not out of repressed desire, out of native repugnance. Acceptance is fine with me, but don't push it!

[LeeG]

Push that rope

[LeeG]

Crack that whip
Give the past the slip
Step on a crack
Break your momma's back

When a problem comes along
You must whip it
Before the cream sits out too long
You must whip it
When something's going wrong
You must whip it

now whip it
into shape
shape it up
get straight
go forward
move ahead
try to detect it
it's not too late
to whip it
whip it good

When a good time turns around
You must whip it
You will never live it down
Unless you whip it
No one gets their way
Until they whip it

I say whip it
Whip it good

[High C]

Come on, Ian, ish is right, of course, about Iraq's standing after Gulf War I. They were on "probation", still occupied and under the thumb of the UN, in a variety of ways, and still bound by the terms of a cease fire agreement which they never lived up to.

The war could've been rightly resumed at almost any time in the last decade or so, given Hussein's frequent attacks against coalition aircraft. Hussein surrendered Iraq's sovreignty when he plowed into Kuwait.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

As usual thank you Ian for an excellent post. I have stayed out of this ridicules thread by our resident belly lint expert, your post pretty much sums it up for me. Well done. Now let HiC howl and drink more Kool-Aid.

[ishmael]

Well, Ian, you've got one of the rah rah, don't think because it hurts, on your side.

Is there a side? As the homosexual issue goes I've always just accepted that I was cute as hell, and the swish men gave attention. Not so much, anymore. smile.gif But I had to fight them off, when.

Joe, stick to your realestate conquests, and an occasional post of pics. You aren't on the same porch.

[ 01-09-2006, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Ian McColgin]

The term sovereign state can have diverse meanings. I suppose one might say that Iraq was not a sovereign state after the first Gulf War in that even though internally entirely self-governing under Saddam Hussein, it was under some international quarantine. But that's a highly functional and idiosyncratic definition of sovereignty.

One measure of sovereignty is membership in the UN. Despite it's various troubles, including the previous Gulf War, Iraq has been a sovereign state and member of the United Nations since 1945.

Lots of sovereign nations have very serious limits upon their freedom of international action. And some, such as Taiwan, may appear sovereign to some and not to others.

It is just false to claim that a nation whose government has been left intact and which is treated as sovereign in international negotiations is anything other than sovereign, irregardless of sanctions and whether or not they were complying with anything. Odious, of course, but still sovereign.

[Chris Coose]

I've got a pretty good idea what information that gets "pumped" into my kids psyche will create the larger damage.
"Brokeback" and all that comes with it hardly makes the list, as it should.

When we were kids there was very little that prepared us boys for the horrors of war. As a matter of fact, many of us were well trained in hate and prejudgement of our neighbors (include homos, Jews, Blacks, Puerto Ricans, Italians, poor people, etc. here).

I've got an 8 year old who, as far as I know, doesn't hate anybody because of how they look or who they may be most attracted to.

In one generation we have made great progress and that may be because we might have to do an inventory and examine the hate or disgust.

[Tristan]

Hey, cowboys have always been gay. Remmeber the lines from that old cowboy song, The Streets of Laredo: "Oh once in the saddle I used to go dashing, once in the saddle I used to go GAY.' :D :D :D

[ 01-09-2006, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Tristan ]

[Ian McColgin]

"Remember the Titans" starring Denzel Washington as Coach Herman Boone and Will Patton as Coach Bill Yoast was an interesting and inspiring movie about the first integrated HS football team in Alaxandria, VA, at the T.C. Williams High School. I have talked to two of Mary Ellen's cousins who were in that high school at that time. While they say there are some slight liberties - the real Gerry Bertier was neither as nice nor as important as depicted (but that may just be them, as neither was even a real football fan, much less on the team) it was very true to life. The male cousin now acknowledges his racism of the time and pointed out to me the walk-by one nasty line character that was him at sixteen.

All of which is to say that Chris raises a brilliant and important point.

We must always remember that even as things seem a bit more polarized, for every racist idiot there are more Tiger Woods and Halley Barrey people out there a-breeding, for every bit of homophobia masquerading as pseudo-rationality there are more people who respect differences, for every fundamentalist fearful of the future there are more gleeful metrosexuals enjoying life's bounty, and for every Pat Robertson there are real evangelists ministering to real people in real need.

I look at my goddaughter and figure humanity might have a chance after all.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by ishmael:
Joe, stick to your realestate conquests, and an occasional post of pics. You aren't on the same porch.Screw you.
You belly lint observing little gnat of a wasted human existence.

Get off your porch
Get a job
Get a dog
Get Sober
Get Laid
Get a LIFE

Then come back and talk to me like a man. Silly little fool of a delusional half life human being. Staring into cat eyes for intelligence. Living in a freaking trailer in the back woods with NOTHING but a bottle and the thoughts scrambled in your head.

[ishmael]

As Nathan Lane said, interviewed by Couric. And I assume he's homosexual. The film was fine, but after awhile they should have just got a room.

Joe, I think you're a bright guy, but you sure don't show it much.

[Chris Coose]

Originally posted by ishmael:
The film was fine, but after awhile they should have just got a room.
Ah, but isn't it the tension prior to getting a room that is the story?

I'll report back, if Ian or Joe (otherwise known as the Politically Correct)don't get to see it before me. Till then you guys can read all about it.

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

OK Joe, now tell me what you like about Ish. :D

[ishmael]

One of the things that hit me in the Rense piece was his distaste for men and women having a smooch, too. It's more than a little puritanical, but I understand what he means.

I can count on one hand truly erotic imagery on film that I've seen. Less than one hand(is that possible?)

I just felt it, the electricity that is the meeting. How can any director pretend to capture that?

[Ian McColgin]

One captures the erotic, whether in the end wrong or forbidden or tragic or simply transcendently transformingly wonderful in many ways, whether in "Romeo&Juliet" or in "Giselle" or even without touching in "Kiss of the Spider Woman", by good directing and acting and stagecraft. Heck, they even do it in ice skating shows!

Evoking the delirious magic of the erotic is not uncommon, as you'll see if you take in a local junior theater production of something good.

An aside, I doubt that "Brokeback Mountain" will cause an erotic reaction in stolidly straight viewers. More's the pity. Everyone should learn that nothing human is strange. Maybe wrong. But not strange.

[LeeG]

Originally posted by ishmael:

I just felt it, the electricity that is the meeting. How can any director pretend to capture that?there's always purple prose

[Keith Wilson]

You belly lint observing little gnat of a wasted human existence.
Jesus T. Christ, Joe, will you lay off of Jack? ENOUGH ALREADY. :mad: It's his life and his business, and as far as I can tell he's doing no harm, at least to no one but himself. Besides, I doubt it will have much effect; when he wants your advice he'll ask for it.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Sold out? We seem to be having a matinee

[purri]

This sounds like the plotline for "The Directors".

[Glen Longino]

Screw you.
You belly lint observing little gnat of a wasted human existence.

Get off your porch
Get a job
Get a dog
Get Sober
Get Laid
Get a LIFE

Then come back and talk to me like a man. Silly little fool of a delusional half life human being. Staring into cat eyes for intelligence. Living in a freaking trailer in the back woods with NOTHING but a bottle and the thoughts scrambled in your head.

Now, that's what I like about Joe!
I miss Joe, the subtlety, the nuance!;)

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

and the reality.

[Paul Pless]

where the HELL was i when this thread came around the first time???

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

probably being pussywhipped. :D

[Paul Pless]

Screw you.
You belly lint observing little gnat of a wasted human existence.

Get off your porch
Get a job
Get a dog
Get Sober
Get Laid
Get a LIFE

Then come back and talk to me like a man. Silly little fool of a delusional half life human being. Staring into cat eyes for intelligence. Living in a freaking trailer in the back woods with NOTHING but a bottle and the thoughts scrambled in your head.actually the 'get a job' thing is over rated. . .

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Aw come on, that was classic Joe.

[Chip-skiff]

Having actually herded sheep in Wyoming (which Annie Proulx never did— pretty evident from the story), I thought I'd hate the movie but it was actually okay.

In reality, we were so knackered, unshaven, and unwashed that the prospect of hot sex never even entered my mind. Hard work, long hours. Horses running off in the middle of the night. Lightning. Blizzards.

When I saw the scenes with that romantic sunset light and the two hunkmeisters lounging around the fire in clean jeans and spotless shirts, drinking whisky, I thought: Good God! Where is there a sheep rancher so devoid of common sense as to send booze out to his camps?* If your herders were in camp at sunset (when the sheep are usually on the move) swilling whisky, you'd have sheep scattered all over hell and gone. We usually had dinner in the dark. No booze whatsoever, until my girlfriend came up to visit, two months along.

The fun part is that it runs pretty hard against the macho commercial myth. Pisses off the wannabe cowboy RV dealer types in their shiny pointy-toe, lowheel boots. I like that.

*Actually, Basque herders get red wine in camp, as a condition of employment. When I was a range cop, I used to visit the Basquos around dinnertime.

[High Tide]

Why did the cowboy have a brown nose? Looking for love in all the wrong places!

[Old Dryfoot]

I love Family Guy, they have no respect for anything and a lampoon for everything... :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghxn38bX7w0&feature=related

[Bob Cleek]

Five years along and who even remembers "Brokeback Mountain." It never amounted to more than another "chick flick" in drag.

But Joe? Joe lives on. He is, apparently, immortal. Our very own "Whack-a-Mole!" Takes a lickin' and keeps on ticken'. Even when he's banned, Scot can't get rid of him. In Joe's "off seasons," they just play the reruns.

[George Jung]

Five years along and who even remembers "Brokeback Mountain." It never amounted to more than another "chick flick" in drag.

But Joe? Joe lives on. He is, apparently, immortal. Our very own "Whack-a-Mole!" Takes a lickin' and keeps on ticken'. Even when he's banned, Scot can't get rid of him. In Joe's "off seasons," they just play the reruns.


Wonderful sentiment, and the 'takes a lickin'/keeps on tickin'' seems very much in touch with ones inner-man, and the theme of this thread. But....

I don't think Joe's gonna like it....

[Phillip Allen]

Wonderful sentiment, and the 'takes a lickin'/keeps on tickin'' seems very much in touch with ones inner-man, and the theme of this thread. But....

I don't think Joe's gonna like it....

:):)