nail, staples vs clamps

[MasterNavigator0913]

Just asking, but if you use nails/screws when you glue, then are they being used for clamps to hold position until glue dries? Can you use finish nails or staples from a nail gun and leave in place and cover with epoxy/fiberglass. I have three different type of nailers, gas framing nailer which can shoot galvanized ring shank nails, pneumatic finsh nailer can shoot galvanized wire finsh nails up to 2 inch long and a finish stapler shoots staple 2 inch long. Thought that with plywood the stapler would work best to hold the wood until the glue bonds the wood to fram, then leave in place and cover with epoxy.

Looking for experieced comments.

thanks.

[Andrew S/Y Rocquette]

2 issues - weight and corrosion.

1. Weight. Staples, once the laminate has cured, add little by way of strength, but do add weight - this may or may not be at all signficant depending on what you're building and how closely you're stapling

2. Corrosion. Theoretically, if sealed over, galvanised staples should be OK. But I pity the person who get any moisture in there and they eventually rust - there will be absolutely no cure for the rust weeping you would get. Better to go for bronze IMHO.

To the above you can add 3. Cost - time to remove (opportunity cost, if doing yourself, and actual cost if paying someone else!) versus cost of higher grade materials if leaving in situ.

What some poeple do is staple through that blue packing tape used to wrap large parcels - you can then rip out the staples with minimal efffort and without needing to gouge out each with a hanmmer head, risking damage to the laminate surface.

Just some thoughts...

smile.gif

(edited for spelling)

[ 06-20-2005, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Andrew S/Y Rocquette ]

[cs]

Another thought. I've built a wood strip canoe and went the stapless route, so my knowledge may not be that much, but here is my 2 cents anyway.

I would think that if nails were used to temporaly hold till the glues sits and that if you left them in, that with use the nails might tend to work themselves loose. If you are doing a stripped canoe that is covered with glass, this might comprmise the glass sheathing.

Chad

[Dale R. Hamilton]

Guys- don't forget about the nylon nails from Rhaptor- just made for this shoot and forget situation.

[MasterNavigator0913]

Don't think conventional staples that are some increment of an inch that you use from a hand held stapler. I am talking about a 2 inch long staple put in by a pneuamatic gun. Of course you would want to use galv, but I think that they would rust. Just looking at some plans that call for 1 inch nails and thought that did not allow for much long term gripe when you nail 1/4 in ply to a 2 by frame. so they must be used for holding in place until glue bonds.

just a thought.

thanks

[Paulyboy]

Nails/staples for pneumatic guns are available in stainless. Is the cost of leaving these in a good tradeoff in time spent removinbg them? If it were me, I'd say hell yeah! Then again, mam always told me no matter how sure you are , you can always be wrong!

[Noah]

Just a word of advice, use Monel or Plastic Staples!

There is a cold-molded boat where they used aluminum staples. Each staple formed and aluminum oxide, causing a bump in the hull. Looks like hell...

[Venchka]

Do the plans specify "glued and screwed"? If so, I reckon the designer figured mechanical back-up of the glued joint was desirable. Galvanized or bronze fasteners in that case. If the mechanical fasteners are only temporary until the epoxy sets, sheetrock screws removed and holes filled with thickened epoxy (fairing filler?) and the filler sanded fair works.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[MasterNavigator0913]

the plans don't call for removal of the nails, just not sure how much grip a 1 inch nail through 1/4 ply has, thats why designer wants glue also, just looking for not having to drive nails, thought that nail guns might help. Not a big deal, though, just looking for alternatives. Nails, screws and glue oh my!!!!

[RodB]

What Wayne said...

Stainless crown staples are a good solution unless you buy raptor plastic. Also a note: the crown staples have much more holding power than nails and its quite easy to fill the hole of the staple and glass over it.

I use staples or nails to hold a difficult item in place...especially when a clamp can't be used or the positioning is exact and I need to put the piece in place and wham it with a staple or nail via air tool... Sometimes I remove them, sometimes not... depends on the situation. When putting two pieces of wood together and both are slathered with epoxy, they get pretty slippery!

I cold molded a layer of 1/4" merranti ply to the bottom of my 18 ft skiff (scarfed in place) and used stainless 1/4" crown staples just set under the surface enough to allow for using epoxy filler to bury them. I was adding a layer of 1/4 " ply to a layer of 3/8" ply so the size of the staple was crucial. Of course I sheathed the bottom with Xynol atop the 1/4" ply so the staples were really buried. I ordered stainless specifically because I was going to leave them in...I had the choice of using strapping and removing them but decided it was not necessary. If I was building a sailboat hull (a major project, very long term investment) , I would remove all staples or use raptor plastic.

I have used a galvanized crown staple or two here and there and left them in when it made fabricating easier and I knew they would be buried well away from moisture. I have found staples seem to pull the object down more for gluing than brads. My skiff is totally encapsulated so a few staples left in are not an issue. If you are worried about galvanized rusting etc... just order some stainless fasteners. Just remember to be sure the nails or staples are covered with enough epoxy filler because if they are too close to the surface of the glass, they get cooler than the wood and cause condensation spots on the surface.

If I can avoid using staples or brads I do, sometimes I just use a couple of sheetrock screws, put them in dry, remove them...leaving the tip protruding...as index pins.. apply epoxy and then put the piece in place with the screws tightened down. The advantage of this method is the indexing of the screw tip allows for perfect positioning every time. Of course you have to take time to fill the holes afterwards. Usually I use clamps in addition to the above described methods if possible.

RB

[ 06-20-2005, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[paladin]

and...depends on boat size.....You can countersink the staples by machining about 1/32nd of an inch off the stapler bit...use monel staples. I used about 310 pounds of staples (monel) in my 31 foot Searunner tri............so if I had removed the staples there would have been over 300 pounds available for more stores.

[ 06-20-2005, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: paladin ]

[RodB]

OH yea, my one foot wide honduras mahogany sheer decks are edge glued (strip planked) with 4 penny galvanized nails on 4 inch centers. The strips are 3/4" square scarfed in place during the process. All nails are completely buried in wood and epoxy and they add lots of strength...but mostly were for applying very even pressure while the epoxy sets up with each strip. I think there are many boats that have buried fasteners that are a non-issue, just use proper technique and materials.

RB

[ 06-20-2005, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[wyndham]

Paladin, what do you mean by machining of the stapler bit? Explain please.

[Bruce Hooke]

In case it's of use...

I had to look long and hard to find stainless staples for a pneumatic gun. I eventually found them at this place: http://www.anchorsssn.com/

[RodB]

Wyndham,

I think he's talking about taking a staple gun and modifying the plunger (filing it down a bit) so that it does not put the staples in too far but deep enough to be covered in epoxy fairing compound... OR deep enough to hold down veneer but easily removed with strap.
RB

[ 06-20-2005, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[wyndham]

Maybe I'm mssing something. The pneumatic staple guns with which I am familiar, Senco, Paslode, PC all have an adjustable plunger to set the head of the staple at the desired depth. On a simple stapler like the basic Arrow that we all have in the shop I have never set a staple below the surface of whatever I was stapling. What am I missing? How would filing it down set the staple deeper?
As an aside staples are fast replacing nails in the area of panelised construction. As plywood is being replace by OSB, Oriented Strand Board (Flake Board) in wood frame construction, staples are more and more the fastener of choice. Since OSB has grain in every direction, the long head of a staple is holding down much more material over a lager square area than a nail head. In a ddition the legs of the staples are designed to splay when driven and offer holding power much greater than two nails of the same wire diameter. It is virtually 8impossible to pull a power driven staple from standard framing lumber. The wire will break before the staple will pull out and the 1/2" OSB will fail before the staples do.
Does Raptor make nylon staples for pneumatic staple guns?

[hikingchrs]

Could you just add a thicker pad to the stapler so it would not drive so deeply?
Chris

[seafox]

I built a bolger skiff in the spring of 87 that has been out in the weather since since I dod not have clamps I stapled the ply to the chine logs to hold while glovit epoxy cured.
it is my feeling that the glue seals the joint to keep water out and the fastiners act as extra strength. except that over the years of getting wet and rying out the staples have backed out abuut 1/2 inch

[RodB]

I think some 1/4" crown staplers are not adjustable (or not as adjustable). I have a pretty good "Spotnail" that has lots of power and always drives the staples in pretty deep even if I dial the air pressure way down. I got a hold of a small Campbell Hausfield that was not very powerful and it worked perfect in cold molding the 1/4" ply layer... as I had to carefully control the depth of the staple and its length to provide even pressure gluing a 1/4" sheet to a 3/8" sheet. The inner surface of the 3/8" sheet was glassed and I sure didn't want to puncture it.

I think when controlling the depth of the staple sometimes staplers are modified and become dedicated to a specific type of work...like laminating veneer. I'm sure others here can comment on this.

RB

[ 06-20-2005, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[paladin]

The stapler that I have has a fixed drive plunger for the staples...it shoots a 1 3/4 inch by 1/2 inch crown staple at 80 psi. If you are to remove the staple no change is necessary...just staple over a heavy piece of plastic strapping material and pull out the staple after the glue sets...I chose to countersink the staple because monel was available to me...so I "puttied" the staple and then covered the boat in Dynel/epoxy.....the first tri was started and parts of it went into Jim Browns personal boat, and the second finished in Thailand, using T-88 epoxy, now marketed by System Three...

[Paul Fitzgerald]

I had to replace the deck on a professionally built 31 foot boat because the ply was stapled, and several other boats built in the same run also had this problem. Best quality marine ply, epoxy glue, but covered with teak strips rather than dynel.
Once fresh water made its way through the teak strips it wicked through three layers of ply along the staples, rotting all three layers. I would always dynel a deck, and not puncture it to put on a teak covering. Consider removing the staples (ugh).
I built a cold moulded 21 footer years ago using half inch ceiltile staples (arrow). I think they are still available. They splay out and pull the laminations together, and leave a few millimeters protruding, so they are easy to pull out with a tackpuller or flat pliers.

[paladin]

The other thing to consider....there are staples...and there are staples..
If you are going to remove the staples the straight shank ones should be used...if you are going to leave them in use monel, countersink them, and use the ones with the chisel points that have a thermal setting resin coating and splay out in the wood when placed...they will hold like grim death and the wood will be long gone before the staple releases..

[RodB]

When I installed my decks on my 18 foot skiff I avoided the use of fasteners to hold the deck panels down until the epoxy cured...I used the four 25 lb bags of lead shot left over from my shotgun loading days plus a 25 lb anchor and any other heavy object I had around. I use these shot bags alot to put ample pressure on a panel being glued down...no fasterners needed... they work great.

RB

[ 06-20-2005, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Venchka]

Originally posted by wyndham:


Does Raptor make nylon staples for pneumatic staple guns?Yes. Nails too. Sizes are limited. You have to buy their guns. Or ask Ken Hutchins real nice to explain how to modify a PC gun for the nails. Search for Raptor here at the Forum. It's all come up before.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Dale R. Hamilton]

Yes, Rhaptor makes nylon staples too- in white and basic brown. They also make the pneumatic guns to shoot them.