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Andy Stoy
11-07-2000, 07:28 PM
Thanks to 3 who responded, however did not get any real leads on whether anyone has done this before. Anyone else have any ideas?
Original question-Has anyone built the Haven 12 1/2 using lapstrake constuction? I am interested in a boat that can be trailered but I am not interested in the mess associated with cold molding. Any thoughts?



[This message has been edited by Andy Stoy (edited 11-19-2000).]

TomHaven12
11-07-2000, 10:48 PM
There is information on cold molding, carvel, and strip planking for the Haven 12 1/2 on the Haven Builders Web site: http://www.havenbuilders.com If anyone has information on lapstrake for the Haven, your input is welcome on the Havenbuilders site.

landlocked sailor
11-08-2000, 04:02 PM
I've often wondered the same thing and would love to see some plans for it, but then I realize that there are a lot of nice boats in this size range designed for lapstrake. Gartsides 'Skylark' and Walt Simmon's 'Newfoundland Trap Skiff'& Duck Trap Wherry' come to mind. Rick

thomas cashman
08-28-2004, 08:03 PM
according to Ray Speck, a lapstrake expert at NW School of wooden boat building almost any carval planked boat can be built in lapstrake. I am also interested in building a haven in lapstrake. I built a catspaw dingy in lapstrake and it looks and works really well. I would be interested in what you find or do and would be glad to share my experience with you.

Big Red
08-29-2004, 01:17 AM
Thom, I would be interested to find out more about your Catspaw. I just lofted it (from WB 110). I was thinking about lapstrake, did you do it yourself or is it on the plans?

The only one I have seen was a small picture in the "just launched" section of a WB. I wouldn't mind finding out about a lapstrake version of the 12 1/2 either. As thats another boat I drool over smile.gif

Edited to add: Sorry Andy, don't mean to hijack your thread smile.gif

[ 08-29-2004, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: Big Red ]

rbgarr
08-29-2004, 03:45 PM
Shew and Burnham of So. Bristol, Maine built three lapstrake L. F. Herreshoff Buzzard's Bay Boy's Boats (17' near cousin of NGH's 12 1/2). They may have thoughts on the subject of building a lapstrake Haven.

Venchka
08-30-2004, 08:08 PM
I would be more concerned about locating a reliable source of planking stock first-say Atlantic white cedar-before I went too far in the clinker direction. Then try your hand at lining off a model.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

ahp
08-31-2004, 04:53 PM
Just to muddy the waters a bit, there was a little boatyard in Southport Connecticut. One of the regular winter residents was a little keel sloop about the same size as a Haven 12 1/2, but a little less deadrise. She was lapstrake from the rail to the turn of the bilge. and carvel from there to the garboard.

She seemed to be very well built.

thomas cashman
09-01-2004, 03:11 AM
I built the catspaw from the plans from WB but figured in a 1/2" overlap for the planking. I used 1/4' planking (Alasklan Yellow Cedar). Ray Speck suggested the Western Red (blond) might be cheaper and better. I had a little trouble with the planks splitting when landing them to the stem but overall they worked out well. I decided on lapstrake because the boat is on a trailer. The boat rows and sails very well, is well balanced and faster downwind than the local Rhodes 19's. Three of us can carry it across the beach to launch. It surfs well has taken it's knocks without any serious damage and seems quite strong. My daughter has it now. The only problem is that I had to build a thicker mast and reinforce the front thwart because of the heavier winds out here.

Big Red
09-01-2004, 04:52 AM
Can I ask a few questions Thom? :confused: How many strakes did you lay out? Did you work them off the lofting or using battens on the molds? And how did that go? I was thinking 5, the garboard one being pretty wide.

Glued or riveted laps? I was thinking glued lapstrake, cause I would need to keep it on a trailer, and cold molding just seemed to hard for a small boat like that. Did you fit out the same amount of frames as the original carvel design?

Oh, got any pics you want to share? Or have you already posted on this? :D

Cheers in advance.

Chadd Hamilton
09-01-2004, 09:30 AM
Hey Big Red. I haven't built a Catspaw, but I think you'll want to line off the planks with battens to get nice fair lines. I'm guessing that a to do a nice lapstrake version of this boat would required at least 8 planks per side, closer to 10. It would be really pretty if done right.

Chadd

Big Red
09-01-2004, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Chadd Hamilton:

...a nice lapstrake version of this boat would required at least 8 planks per side, closer to 10. It would be really pretty if done right.It certainly would :D If done right ;)

I have fooled with battens lying on my lofting. Transfering them between views is slow but interesting work. A lot of fooling around if you change your mind too :eek:

gert
09-02-2004, 10:16 AM
doesn't the Haven have a concave bow?

Garrett Lowell
09-02-2004, 10:40 AM
Yes, there is a hollow to the Haven bow. Would this adversely affect the construction using the lapstrake method?

gert
09-02-2004, 01:09 PM
I think you would have to loose the hollow

Jon Etheredge
09-02-2004, 01:16 PM
I think you would have to loose the hollow
I don't think that is neccesarily true.

What makes you say that you can't plank a slightly hollowed bow lapstrake?

rbgarr
09-02-2004, 03:55 PM
IIRC, lapstrake planking a hollow bowed design is significantly affected by both the lining off and number (therefore width) of planks. One pattern may make it doable, while another choice makes it very difficult, if not impossible. I could be wrong though. :confused:

Jon Etheredge
09-02-2004, 05:55 PM
Seems like the Haven bow would fall in the doable category.

<CENTER>
http://www.havenbuilders.com/nielsen/Image06fs.jpg
</CENTER>

This is an image from the Haven Builders (http://www.havenbuilders.com) web site.

It just doesn't look like there is that much hollow in the bow. I bet the wineglass sections further aft will probably require careful lining off though.

I haven't built a Haven myself so I could very easily be wrong. It certainly wouldn't be the first (or last) time smile.gif

gert
09-03-2004, 10:21 AM
It's just counter intuative. Arn't strakes supposed to fall naturaly? They would have to be forced into the hollow.
Ther was an image of a lapstrake Haven here a couple years back, it was definatly good looking.

Jon Etheredge
09-03-2004, 11:22 AM
Arn't strakes supposed to fall naturaly? They would have to be forced into the hollow.
Well there's force and then there is FORCE smile.gif

To some extent, if you start with a flat plank, you'll have to force the plank to take a curve to fit the molds. Just because the section has a hollow doesn't mean that you will be "forcing" the plank into the shape anymore than normal.

A hollow section will require beveling the plank differently though. If the section is convex, most (or all) of the beveling will be on the upper of edge of the lower plank, i.e. the plank that is already hung. If the section is concave though, you may not bevel the upper edge of the lower plank at all but will instead bevel the lower edge of the next plank (the plank that you are getting ready to hang). A good example of the is the "box keel" (sometimes called planked down skeg) at the stern of an old style New Jersey Sea Bright Skiff. See if you can find a picture of one of these boats (maybe in one of John Gardners books?) to see what I mean.

But the comment by rbgarr about the need for careful lining off and plank width choice are certainly correct. You also have to remember that lapstrake planking will at best be an approximation of the original curve that was drawn since it will be a set of straight lines instead of a smooth curve.

thomas cashman
09-05-2004, 03:54 PM
Bid Red I sent you a message "to big red" i don't want to distract from the origional writer's question

rbgarr
10-03-2004, 10:35 PM
This past week I saw and photographed a lapstrake Haven on Cape Cod. When I get the film developed I'll post the pictures (which I'm concerned may not be very good).

The boat looked like it had been damaged in one of the recent storms. She was on a trailer (a third full of water :eek: :mad: ,) the centerboard box cap was wrenched off and the sails were separated from their outhauls and lying all 'ahoo', as Lucky Jack Aubrey might say. Generally looking poorly cared for, unfortunately. :(

Bayboat
10-08-2004, 05:30 PM
At Schooner Boat Works we've just finished planking a Bailey Whitehall, designed as carvel, with lapstrake. With careful lining out at each station she's shaping up to look just fine.

rbgarr
11-15-2004, 05:30 PM
Here are the photos of the lapstrake Haven I took a few weeks ago:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid146/p8b418160c79e2dcd288c8dddbbacef67/f6410f79.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid146/p308231fac7e5597f56db5f556c49feef/f6410e93.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid146/p01a4c19563d2c1a3e6ce73bb20700f0e/f6410e14.jpg

ChuckG
11-15-2004, 09:17 PM
I would claim there is a bit of hollow in this bow, and it worked out OK. It's true there wasn't much of a bevel at the first mold or in the lap.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid133/p11cc6f6033613378e7d5df6a06c320d2/f7870fb0.jpg

Dang if you guys aren't getting me interested in another boat tongue.gif

ChuckG

Bill Perkins
11-16-2004, 07:00 AM
Pete Culler recommended marking the diagonals on the molds as a guide to lineing off .You can add them to your lofting if you've got few or none .If you lay out your battens more or less with the flow of the diagonals it looks good and minimises the curve in the spiled shape of the plank , which saves stock .Some say it allows the water to flow more smoothly .

Since I think it's out of print, here's a cut and paste from Culler's Skiffs and Schooners :

"Batten the sheer first, and the
garboard next, keeping the ends well up, as mentioned before. Then put in the rest of the battens, one for each strake edge, being guided by
the diagonals. Then stand off and study it from
all angles. Little errors will at once become apparent and should be corrected one batten at a time. Shifting one may call for shifting another a second time. I usually do not attempt to have the hood ends forward all the same width, letting those above the garboard be wider than those near the sheer as a rule. Take your time. The object is to have the boat all fair and pleasing to the eye.
Bear in mind, if the craft is a nice, easy model , that which would be the shutter in a carvel planked boat should have very little shape, just taper, in a lapstrake boat. What you are doing , starting with the garboard, is throwing the ends up and reducing the hook in the plank.
The hook will increase again somewhat as the sheer is reached, the amount depending on the
uprightness of the top plank and on the amount of sheer ."

[ 11-16-2004, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

frameshop
11-16-2004, 04:57 PM
Andy; You speak of the mess and bother of "cold moulding" the haven hull. I did it and it was very fast and it has been roughly trailered for 5 years now. I made life easy for myself by using 1/4 cedar bead and cove for a canoe for the first layer, This kept the Havens pretty shape. This was followed by two diagonal layers of red cedar covered with 6 oz cloth. You can see some picturres of it at the haven builders site. http://www.havenbuilders.com/netscape5.html
Look under "builders" Roger Mullette.
This technique was very fast and it is rock solid. Roger.

[ 11-16-2004, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: frameshop ]

Thad Van Gilder
11-17-2004, 10:41 AM
For me, anyway, clinker boats are much quicker than carvel to plank, and easier, too. I'd say two monkey's and a retarded child could probably plank a decent clinker boat.

as far as planking stock goes, I never had a problem finding white cedar in south jersey.

-Thad

Big Red
11-18-2004, 02:37 AM
Ahh, wow, lookit that. Damn that looks nice. Thanks for posting RB :D Crap, I know what you mean about another boat Chuck smile.gif I've got a shorter list of boats I DON'T want to build :eek:

I have been trying on the computer to lay out laps, its hard to know whether to have all evenly spaced ends, to have a wider than the rest sheer strake, how wide to make the garboard? But then thats the fun of doing it huh? Making the decision and going for it.

Is that your boat then Chuck? Hard to see if its hollow from here, looks like its convex on the first frame there. Perhaps if you post another pic or two, then we can really see ;)

Sorry Andy, we jacked your thread :rolleyes:

Big Red
11-18-2004, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by Thad Van Gilder:
I'd say two monkey's and a retarded child could probably plank a decent clinker boat.

-ThadWell theres hope for me yet. All I need is a child and one more Monkey ;) :D

TomHaven12
12-03-2004, 09:40 AM
There are now a set of new construction photos of a lapstrake Haven, submitted by Jaska of Finland on the http://www.HavenBuilders.com web site under the builder menu tab of "Jaska." Here are a couple of the photos:

http://www.havenbuilders.com/kuva/Kuva006a.jpg
http://www.havenbuilders.com/kuva/Kuva011a.jpg

[ 12-03-2004, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: TomHaven12 ]

Garrett Lowell
12-03-2004, 09:46 AM
Thanks Tom. I can't tell from the site, but do you think it is glued lap or traditional?

Thad Van Gilder
12-03-2004, 09:54 AM
looks traditional to me, based on the rows of rivets on the laps.

-Thad

Venchka
12-05-2004, 12:14 AM
Did the builder explain what all the goo oozing from the laps is in the upper photo?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 12-05-2004, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

Jaakko Harjula
12-07-2004, 02:45 AM
Laps are not glued, just as Thad thought. It's built traditional way, with copper rivets and just cotton between laps.

-jaska

Ken Buck
12-07-2004, 05:43 PM
Cotton between the laps isn't "traditional". What gives?

rbgarr
12-07-2004, 05:46 PM
It is in Scandinavian lapstrake construction.

Ken Buck
12-07-2004, 09:28 PM
hmmm.....