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WX
05-31-2019, 06:32 PM
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-01/mass-shooting-virginia-beach-gunman-dead/11170562

McMike
05-31-2019, 06:50 PM
So far. . .

Paul Pless
05-31-2019, 06:59 PM
More to come....

C. Ross
05-31-2019, 07:34 PM
Disgruntled employee.
Not a Muslim or immigrant. Possibly killed by cops.
Ticks all the boxes. Nothing to see here. We just needed more guns on the scene.

CWSmith
05-31-2019, 07:57 PM
Virginia Beach is a real "praise Jesus and pass the ammunition" place. I can't say I'm surprised any more than any gun violence surprises and saddens me.

Gerarddm
05-31-2019, 08:39 PM
12.

So much for the NRA crap about an armed society being a polite society.

Do the math: zero guns = zero gun deaths.

Jim Bow
05-31-2019, 08:53 PM
Only a 20 minute drive to the Virginia Beach NRA-Legislative Activity Center.
Wonder if they'll cancel Bingo Night.

Flying Orca
05-31-2019, 09:00 PM
Well-regulated militias don't shoot their own civil servants.

C. Ross
05-31-2019, 09:19 PM
It was an attack in a government office.

Is this one of those “We need a militia to defend ourselves against a tyrannical government” things?

epoxyboy
05-31-2019, 09:21 PM
Virginia Beach is a real "praise Jesus and pass the ammunition" place. I can't say I'm surprised any more than any gun violence surprises and saddens me.
But evidently still lacking in good guys with guns.

Pete

Art Haberland
06-01-2019, 01:02 AM
why is this crap becoming normal?

skuthorp
06-01-2019, 04:18 AM
Some forumite told me it's 'cultural' Art. Part of what it means to be free, to be free to be shot to death as a part of the shooter's freedoms.

S.V. Airlie
06-01-2019, 06:14 AM
why is this crap becoming normal?Simple, 150 mass shootings since Jan. 1st if I heard NPR correctly.

SKIP KILPATRICK
06-01-2019, 06:36 AM
Good news! All the firearms used in this incident were bought legally.

Shall not be infringed b*tches!

hightop
06-01-2019, 06:40 AM
Apparently he used a silencer to delay victims from panicking and escaping at the sound of gunfire, I'm sure the NRA is working on a statement to inform us it's a God given 2nd amendment right for US citizens to possess silencers.

C. Ross
06-01-2019, 06:48 AM
No comment from President Trump as of this morning.

I expect he will eventually offer something lame, like praise for brave first responders.

LeeG
06-01-2019, 07:11 AM
what a coincidence, noticeable increase since 2016


https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/mass-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.9bc43cd8f749

SKIP KILPATRICK
06-01-2019, 07:15 AM
An average of 100 Americans a day are killed by a firearm.

100 people X 365 days in a year = 36,500 dead Americans per year.

36,500 X 10 years = 365,000 per decade

Makes a war seem insignificant.
There Is the math. Would any of our very own Ammosexuals like to add a response ?

McMike
06-01-2019, 07:23 AM
Apparently he used a silencer to delay victims from panicking and escaping at the sound of gunfire, I'm sure the NRA is working on a statement to inform us it's a God given 2nd amendment right for US citizens to possess silencers.

Suppresser. We need a very expensive tax stamp to acquire one legally. Like, you have to be a gun dealer.

Listen, guns aren't going away, the political capital we lose by going after the 2nd is insane. What we should focus on is storage, background checks, and regulated transactions. Beyond that, stop demonizing gun owners. One of the primary reasons Trump was elected was to preserve "gun rights" and for that, we lose the ability to win on so many other levels. If we stop the gun debate, we can focus on universal healthcare and mental health, that by itself will prevent many of these shootings. I am a fire breathing liberal, and I want to live in a gun-free America, but I realized that with guns, we're fighting a losing battle and when Trump was elected I realized why the 2nd is important. To protect ourselves from the Lunatic Trump Fringe. They're everywhere, they make up 15% of the people, they have all the guns, and they are consistently, with subtle and not so subtle innuendo, threatening violence if Trump is voted out or removed. I think now is the time for liberals to responsibly acquire the skills and hardware necessary to regain the balance of power. . . . and no, you don't need a tricked out AR to equal their potential force; you need to develop skill, most of the Lunatic Trump Fringe are ignorant, fat, and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 30 yards. I can hit the lid of a coffee can with a 3.5" barrel 10 times without missing at 30 yards while moving my firearm into low ready in between each round fired.

Peerie Maa
06-01-2019, 08:17 AM
^Mike. IT IS NOT WORKING. US citizens are having their rights terminally infringed by the thousand. The US needs to do something different and EFFECTIVE.
Arming moderates to create a bigger blood bath is a dumb suggestion.

CK 17
06-01-2019, 08:19 AM
An average of 100 Americans a day are killed by a firearm.

100 people X 365 days in a year = 36,500 dead Americans per year.

36,500 X 10 years = 365,000 per decade

Makes a war seem insignificant.
There Is the math. Would any of our very own Ammosexuals like to add a response ?
But an ammosexual would say that 70 percent of that number is Suicide, so there!

Peerie Maa
06-01-2019, 08:23 AM
But an ammosexual would say that 70 percent of that number is Suicide, so there!

So that is only 110,000 grieving families, so that's alright then.
Oh wait. Finding a loved ones brains splattered up the wall is OK?

amish rob
06-01-2019, 08:26 AM
So that is only 110,000 grieving families, so that's alright then.
Oh wait. Finding a loved ones brains splattered up the wall is OK?

No, itís not. It causes severe trauma.

Wanna know how I know?

Peace,
Robert

John Smith
06-01-2019, 08:36 AM
why is this crap becoming normal?

It's really not normal. For every person who shoots people, there are many millions who don't.

Why does this happen as often as it does? IMO, we have misinterpreted the 2nd Amendment at our great peril. We have not need that 'well regulated militia' since we've had armies, cops, and National Guard. Once we got those, the 2nd Amendment should have been deemed as moot as the 3rd, and I'll wager most will have to look that one up.

John Smith
06-01-2019, 08:37 AM
No comment from President Trump as of this morning.

I expect he will eventually offer something lame, like praise for brave first responders.

Thoughts and prayers.

LeeG
06-01-2019, 09:05 AM
Suppresser. We need a very expensive tax stamp to acquire one legally. Like, you have to be a gun dealer.

Listen, guns aren't going away, the political capital we lose by going after the 2nd is insane. What we should focus on is storage, background checks, and regulated transactions. Beyond that, stop demonizing gun owners. One of the primary reasons Trump was elected was to preserve "gun rights" and for that, we lose the ability to win on so many other levels. If we stop the gun debate, we can focus on universal healthcare and mental health, that by itself will prevent many of these shootings. I am a fire breathing liberal, and I want to live in a gun-free America, but I realized that with guns, we're fighting a losing battle and when Trump was elected I realized why the 2nd is important. To protect ourselves from the Lunatic Trump Fringe. They're everywhere, they make up 15% of the people, they have all the guns, and they are consistently, with subtle and not so subtle innuendo, threatening violence if Trump is voted out or removed. I think now is the time for liberals to responsibly acquire the skills and hardware necessary to regain the balance of power. . . . and no, you don't need a tricked out AR to equal their potential force; you need to develop skill, most of the Lunatic Trump Fringe are ignorant, fat, and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 30 yards. I can hit the lid of a coffee can with a 3.5" barrel 10 times without missing at 30 yards while moving my firearm into low ready in between each round fired.

nope, to meet their firepower people need to vote, not develop the skill to kill each other effectively.

bluedog225
06-01-2019, 09:07 AM
https://thefederalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/191219.png

Art Haberland
06-01-2019, 09:13 AM
No, it’s not. It causes severe trauma.

Wanna know how I know?

Peace,
Robert

been there, done that. I lost a nephew to gun assisted suicide. My Sister has not been the same since.

Peerie Maa
06-01-2019, 09:39 AM
https://thefederalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/191219.png

I got a chart as well
https://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_16421_the_number_of_us_gun_deaths_du e_to_firearms_n.jpg

C. Ross
06-01-2019, 09:52 AM
https://thefederalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/191219.png

True.

Tell us again why we need more weapons to defend ourselves against violent criminals?

ron ll
06-01-2019, 09:53 AM
Anyone know where I can get a “Thoughts and Prayers” bumper sticker? I’m tired of having to type it so often yet I know it helps solve the problem.

C. Ross
06-01-2019, 10:01 AM
The President tweets at 10:45ET


Spoke to Virginia Governor (https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1134832749855039489)@RalphNortham (https://mobile.twitter.com/RalphNortham) last night, and the Mayor and Vice Mayor of Virginia Beach this morning, to offer condolences to that great community. The Federal Government is there, and will be, for whatever they may need. God bless the families and all!


Useless, though admittedly not his kind of signature cringeworthy tweet.

bluedog225
06-01-2019, 10:11 AM
Rate. Not number. If we are going to debate policy, we need to address the argument that increased gun ownership has gone hand in hand with a reduction in violent crime and murder.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JkO86xjCP9w/Vmek-RxVVJI/AAAAAAAAEmE/wZTKqBvjb9c/s1600/GunOwnershipVCrimeRate.jpg

bluedog225
06-01-2019, 10:14 AM
Has the handgun ban in UK resulted in more or less violent crime?

Old Dryfoot
06-01-2019, 10:27 AM
Try reading this with an open mind.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts

S.V. Airlie
06-01-2019, 10:36 AM
Spoke to Virginia Governor (https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1134832749855039489)@RalphNortham (https://mobile.twitter.com/RalphNortham) last night, and the Mayor and Vice Mayor of Virginia Beach this morning, to offer condolences to that great community. The Federal Government is there, and will be, for whatever they may need. God bless the families and all!

Yes, please send more guns ASAP!

Peerie Maa
06-01-2019, 11:28 AM
Has the handgun ban in UK resulted in more or less violent crime?

We are discussing dead people. If you can't handle that and have nothing relevant to say, why are you posting to this thread?

McMike
06-01-2019, 12:21 PM
nope, to meet their firepower people need to vote, not develop the skill to kill each other effectively.

Without a doubt, people need to vote. But the reality is, the 2nd is enshrined in our Constitution and nothing will change that for a long time if ever. FWIW, I would never argue against gun control, I simply don't feel it's the battle we need to fight right now. But you can go on being distracted from the real problems in our country if you like, maybe someday you'll come to understand reality vs hopes and dreams. The reality is, the government doesn't belong to us and never will until we unite as a people . . . and the gun issue is dividing us, as it was meant to.

C. Ross
06-01-2019, 01:05 PM
Rate. Not number. If we are going to debate policy, we need to address the argument that increased gun ownership has gone hand in hand with a reduction in violent crime and murder.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JkO86xjCP9w/Vmek-RxVVJI/AAAAAAAAEmE/wZTKqBvjb9c/s1600/GunOwnershipVCrimeRate.jpg

Your graph has two problems.

One, a lot of things have changed between 1992. Are you sure that more guns caused crime to go down? What proof is there?

If you look at state by state comparisons, there is zero correlation between gun ownership and crime.

https://i.redd.it/7nxp4sta2dn01.png



Here is gun death versus gun ownership, which is more relevant since so many gun fatalities in the U.S. are not crimes.

https://fair.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Vox-Gun-Ownership.jpg

Keith Wilson
06-01-2019, 01:14 PM
We will always be divided. But to make real changes, we don't need to be completely united, just united enough. Remember that Trump was elected by 26% of the eligible voters in the US.

McMike
06-01-2019, 01:51 PM
We will always be divided. But to make real changes, we don't need to be completely united, just united enough. Remember that Trump was elected by 26% of the eligible voters in the US.

If we keep up with this hyper-partisan tug of war, our country will eventually fling apart . . . unfortunately, sadly, this fight, over guns, is only going to cause more divide and angst with no lasting positive results.

CWSmith
06-01-2019, 01:59 PM
We can debate the correlation between gun ownership and violent death, but the underlying fallacy is that people believe they are in danger and that guns make them safer.

Most people are not in danger and guns to not make you safer. There are more gun deaths in houses that have guns. I walk city streets and have never carried a gun.

Last, there is a disconnect between people and the police that leaves the people mistrusting the police, despite the irony that the police do actually make us safer.

Peerie Maa
06-01-2019, 02:18 PM
The thing that amazes me is that what used to be a world leader and was supposedly clever enough to put men on the moon has not not figured out what our Home Secretary knew in 1937.
The same year, the Home Secretary ruled that self-defence was no longer a suitable reason for applying for a firearm certificate and directed police to refuse such applications on the grounds that "firearms cannot be regarded as a suitable means of protection and may be a source of danger".[82] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_policy_in_the_United_Kingdom#cite_note-82)

hightop
06-01-2019, 06:27 PM
Suppresser. We need a very expensive tax stamp to acquire one legally. Like, you have to be a gun dealer.

The average person knows what a silencer is, but may be unclear about a suppressor, I imagine that's why law enforcement referred to it as a silencer, either term is correct, it's not like calling a magazine a clip.

amish rob
06-01-2019, 06:32 PM
The thing that amazes me is that what used to be a world leader and was supposedly clever enough to put men on the moon has not not figured out what our Home Secretary knew in 1937.
Supposedly?

So dudes didnít walk on the moon?

Peace,
Robert

WX
06-01-2019, 06:36 PM
Supposedly?

So dudes didn’t walk on the moon?

Peace,
Robert
He’s not suggesting that. How can a country that put men on the moon be so stupid about gun ownership.

amish rob
06-01-2019, 06:41 PM
Heís not suggesting that. How can a country that put men on the moon be so stupid about gun ownership.
Yarp?
It says supposedly clever enough, which would indicate to me the cleverness was supposed.

Then again, Iím not an English speaker, because we suck at that, too.

Peace,
Robert

CK 17
06-01-2019, 06:49 PM
The GOP with blood on their hands, as usual. . .

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-news/in-january-virginia-gop-killed-bill-to-ban-sales-of-large-capacity-gun-magazines-like-those-used-by-virginia-beach-shooter/2019/06/01/ee5efd8e-8489-11e9-933d-7501070ee669_story.html?utm_term=.fb07b0217f33#cli ck=https://t.co/5Q6Fi5OHKB (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-news/in-january-virginia-gop-killed-bill-to-ban-sales-of-large-capacity-gun-magazines-like-those-used-by-virginia-beach-shooter/2019/06/01/ee5efd8e-8489-11e9-933d-7501070ee669_story.html?utm_term=.fb07b0217f33#cli ck=https://t.co/5Q6Fi5OHKB)

Peerie Maa
06-01-2019, 06:52 PM
Yarp?
It says supposedly clever enough, which would indicate to me the cleverness was supposed.

Then again, I’m not an English speaker, because we suck at that, too.

Peace,
Robert

What WX said. How can anything be that clever and that dumb at the same time?

Then again was the cleverness just loads of money and luck? Consider the accidents and near misses.

WX
06-01-2019, 06:54 PM
Yarp?
It says supposedly clever enough, which would indicate to me the cleverness was supposed.

Then again, I’m not an English speaker, because we suck at that, too.

Peace,
Robert
I think you are being a bit over sensitive. :)

amish rob
06-01-2019, 07:01 PM
What WX said. How can anything be that clever and that dumb at the same time?

Then again was the cleverness just loads of money and luck? Consider the accidents and near misses.

Sure. Howís that whole Brexit thing working?

Glass houses, and all...

Peace,
Robert

amish rob
06-01-2019, 07:04 PM
I think you are being a bit over sensitive. :)

Well, I am, I think, the only member whoís lost 4 people to guns in the past year, and maybe the only one whoís seen the inside of two heads in that time, and probably the only one who spends time actively harassing local and state legislators and helping set up anti-gun violence programs, and, as such, I feel Iím entitled to be as sensitive as Iíd like, and to say whatever Iíd like.

What have you lot done, except point fingers and find fault, eh?

Peace,
Robert

Bobby of Tulsa
06-01-2019, 07:19 PM
^ You seem to think you are the only one that ever lost some one or seen things no one else has seen, Mr. I have stuffed more body bags, dug through more mud to find body parts than you will ever know. Some very close friends and others just young men in the wrong place.

amish rob
06-01-2019, 07:23 PM
^ You seem to think you are the only one that ever lost some one or seen things no one else has seen, Mr. I have stuffed more body bags, dug through more mud to find body parts than you will ever know. Some very close friends and others just young men in the wrong place.
You donít know what I think.

But I donít want to sit here and let people slag on this country over and over and over and over and over.

And, again, you donít know a thing about me, or what Iíve seen, done, or lost, Mr.

What are you doing about gun violence NOW? That is the issue. Anything?

I am, so I will say what I damned well please.

Period.

Peace,
Emperor For Life

Peerie Maa
06-01-2019, 07:26 PM
Well, I am, I think, the only member who’s lost 4 people to guns in the past year, and maybe the only one who’s seen the inside of two heads in that time, and probably the only one who spends time actively harassing local and state legislators and helping set up anti-gun violence programs, and, as such, I feel I’m entitled to be as sensitive as I’d like, and to say whatever I’d like.

What have you lot done, except point fingers and find fault, eh?

Peace,
Robert

It would be good if you could figure out who is on your side.

amish rob
06-01-2019, 07:29 PM
It would be good if you could figure out who is on your side.
It would be better if you didnít pretend you knew everything. You also donít know squirt about whatís going on here, but that donít stop the opinions.

You writing stuff here, on this forum, does NOTHING to affect gun violence. NO. THING.

It has ZERO material affect.

Peace,
Robert

WX
06-01-2019, 07:42 PM
Well, I am, I think, the only member who’s lost 4 people to guns in the past year, and maybe the only one who’s seen the inside of two heads in that time, and probably the only one who spends time actively harassing local and state legislators and helping set up anti-gun violence programs, and, as such, I feel I’m entitled to be as sensitive as I’d like, and to say whatever I’d like.

What have you lot done, except point fingers and find fault, eh?

Peace,
Robert
We banned automatic and semi automatic weapons and stopped mass killings. And I wasn’t picking on you, just trying to correct a misunderstanding.

WX
06-02-2019, 01:06 AM
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-01/two-australians-made-a-viral-gun-control-video/11118340
38515

skuthorp
06-02-2019, 01:17 AM
Come on Brian W, have at that one………………..

LeeG
06-02-2019, 05:14 AM
The GOP with blood on their hands, as usual. . .

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-news/in-january-virginia-gop-killed-bill-to-ban-sales-of-large-capacity-gun-magazines-like-those-used-by-virginia-beach-shooter/2019/06/01/ee5efd8e-8489-11e9-933d-7501070ee669_story.html?utm_term=.fb07b0217f33#cli ck=https://t.co/5Q6Fi5OHKB (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-news/in-january-virginia-gop-killed-bill-to-ban-sales-of-large-capacity-gun-magazines-like-those-used-by-virginia-beach-shooter/2019/06/01/ee5efd8e-8489-11e9-933d-7501070ee669_story.html?utm_term=.fb07b0217f33#cli ck=https://t.co/5Q6Fi5OHKB)

I just read that. ;

ďEach year, Democrats propose multiple gun-control measures, such as strengthening background checks, limiting handgun purchases to one per month and allowing localities to regulate guns in public buildings. They call these ďcommon-senseĒ measures to save lives.

Each year, Republican majorities in one or both chambers of the legislature vote them down, usually in committee. GOP legislators say their goal is never to infringe on peopleís Second Amendment rights.Ē

What the hell does the GOP represent?

Trump and his dumpster fire of social values
NRA and guns in schools
Religious hypocrisy
anti-science

Peerie Maa
06-02-2019, 05:53 AM
It would be better if you didn’t pretend you knew everything. You also don’t know squirt about what’s going on here, but that don’t stop the opinions.

You writing stuff here, on this forum, does NOTHING to affect gun violence. NO. THING.

It has ZERO material affect.

Peace,
RobertSo, advise me. What will?

McMike
06-02-2019, 07:20 AM
It would be good if you could figure out who is on your side.

That's the thing. I agree with you on the facts and on the suggested solution but you guys seem to enjoy watching the US fail. There's always a twinge of glee in your (not just you but many on the outside) posts that suggests you're kicking us while we're down. You have no idea the gravity of the 2nd amendment here, making it near impossible to ever change it. We get to live here, with our warts and all. This problem won't ever get solved with a tidy red bow on top and the conditions here are never going to be as such that we'll be able to implement such sweeping law like NZ just did or the rest. Guns are a part of our culture, We'll certainly never be invaded by a traditional army, so there's that. You truly don't understand us, notice I don't criticize the utter lunacy that is Brexit or ponder the rise of AU's very own nationalist-right wing. It's because I'm not there to understand the nuances of why it is that such perfect countries seem to have such pissed off people. So yeah, it's annoying to constantly hear how stupid we are by a bunch of folks, that might as well be deaf and blind for how far removed you are, talking out their a55e5.

amish rob
06-02-2019, 07:26 AM
So, advise me. What will?

I think you are confusing us.

Iím not the one who thinks he knows everything about everything.

I will go ahead and guess that the work weíve been doing to get legislature passed will likely help more than typing here. Also, the community outreach program we helped start and I participate in, may do more to heal our community than slagging folks with a keyboard.

I am an idiot, admittedly, but I have been under the impression for a while that there are two types of folks: those that point out problems, and those that solve them.

Iím not much of a pointer.

Peace,
Robert

David W Pratt
06-02-2019, 08:31 AM
Many people seem to be seduced by the simplistic, no guns, no gun deaths, rather than look at the root causes of gun deaths.
A large fraction of gun deaths in the US are suicides. Self immolation is a complicated subject and is actually legal in some states. Some suicides probably would be grateful for an intervention and I'm all for better and more accessible mental health care. A lot of people who need progress to suicide would probably benefit as well.
So called mass shootings generate alarming headlines, but about half of them are the end stage of domestic violence. Again, improved intervention earlier in the domestic violence episode might not only prevent these, but alleviate a lot of sublethal misery.

McMike
06-02-2019, 08:37 AM
Many people seem to be seduced by the simplistic, no guns, no gun deaths, rather than look at the root causes of gun deaths.
A large fraction of gun deaths in the US are suicides. Self immolation is a complicated subject and is actually legal in some states. Some suicides probably would be grateful for an intervention and I'm all for better and more accessible mental health care. A lot of people who need progress to suicide would probably benefit as well.
So called mass shootings generate alarming headlines, but about half of them are the end stage of domestic violence. Again, improved intervention earlier in the domestic violence episode might not only prevent these, but alleviate a lot of sublethal misery.

No, it's really as simple as; we would be a far far better country if we adopted much stricter gun laws. It's ignorance and fear that keeps us from doing so. Most people who own a gun or ten should not for various reasons, not least of which is because they're simply not intelligent enough to employ one for the right reasons or the right way. And yes, suicides points out the complete blindness to mental health when it comes to gun ownership and proper storage of guns. We can fix it, people like you choose not to, it's really that simple. You don;t want your toy and play time messed with, effing children.

John of Phoenix
06-02-2019, 10:16 AM
All those dead first graders at Sandy Hook was our last chance at sanity and reds sold us out to the NRA. Again. "Guns ‹ber alles!"

Your only hope is that you and yours are never impacted by this insanity. Best of luck.

BTW, we have an armed guard in my office because of a "Potential Situation".

McMike
06-02-2019, 10:19 AM
All those dead first graders at Sandy Hook was our last chance at sanity and reds sold us out to the NRA. Again. "Guns ‹ber alles!"

Your only hope is that you and yours are never impacted by this insanity.

The only thing that will stop this insanity is a constitutional amendment. That will never happen. This is our reality.

mmd
06-02-2019, 10:40 AM
I am not going to jump in with any contribution to the primary topic of this thread - I am sure that most of you already know my position on the subject - but I would like to comment on McMike's opinion in # 62 and #67 that the current situation is not able to be changed. With respect, McMike, that is defeatist and not a mind-set that I normally associate with Americans. Any situation can be changed when there is the need and will to do so. Colonial oppression, slavery, and the economic disparity and brutality to the common man of the Gilded Age were all situations that were detrimental to the average American and seemed overwhelming, yet through the will of your populace and the strength of your political will all were overcome. Each took many years and the shedding of blood and treasure, and some battles are still being fought, but you persevered for the good of the country. This is very similar - there is a cancer on your society that is killing and maiming tens of thousands of your fellow citizens every year, and ridding the country of it will be painful, long, and possibly bloody, but isn't the lives of all those people worth the struggle? Nobody ever won a fight by going into it with the attitude that 'the other guy is so much bigger and stronger than I am, so I might as well not even try...'

LeeG
06-02-2019, 12:14 PM
Many people seem to be seduced by the simplistic, no guns, no gun deaths, rather than look at the root causes of gun deaths.
A large fraction of gun deaths in the US are suicides. Self immolation is a complicated subject and is actually legal in some states. Some suicides probably would be grateful for an intervention and I'm all for better and more accessible mental health care. A lot of people who need progress to suicide would probably benefit as well.
So called mass shootings generate alarming headlines, but about half of them are the end stage of domestic violence. Again, improved intervention earlier in the domestic violence episode might not only prevent these, but alleviate a lot of sublethal misery.

Many people wish to avoid any requirements or restrictions for gun ownership. In fact many people think owning a gun confers physical or political security as though owning a high performance car enables them to race cars or buying a cruising sailboat means they can go sailing in the ocean. If you buy it you can use it.

John Smith
06-02-2019, 12:20 PM
The only thing that will stop this insanity is a constitutional amendment. That will never happen. This is our reality.

I don't think we need an amendment, but we do need to put the 2nd amendment in context. Art 1 sec 8 references the militia. It was to armed and trained BY THE GOVERNMENT. It was to be called up to repel invasions, suppress uprisings, and enforce laws.

We haven't needed that militia (A well regulated militia being necesssary... is how the 2nd begins) since we got police, National Guard, and military. The 2nd Amendment needs to be deemed as moot as the 3rd, and for the same reasons.

John Smith
06-02-2019, 12:22 PM
I am not going to jump in with any contribution to the primary topic of this thread - I am sure that most of you already know my position on the subject - but I would like to comment on McMike's opinion in # 62 and #67 that the current situation is not able to be changed. With respect, McMike, that is defeatist and not a mind-set that I normally associate with Americans. Any situation can be changed when there is the need and will to do so. Colonial oppression, slavery, and the economic disparity and brutality to the common man of the Gilded Age were all situations that were detrimental to the average American and seemed overwhelming, yet through the will of your populace and the strength of your political will all were overcome. Each took many years and the shedding of blood and treasure, and some battles are still being fought, but you persevered for the good of the country. This is very similar - there is a cancer on your society that is killing and maiming tens of thousands of your fellow citizens every year, and ridding the country of it will be painful, long, and possibly bloody, but isn't the lives of all those people worth the struggle? Nobody ever won a fight by going into it with the attitude that 'the other guy is so much bigger and stronger than I am, so I might as well not even try...'

changing this is not easy and may well be impossible. If no guns at all were sold anywhere in the country beginning today, it would have no impact. We need to address guns already in the hands of the public.

I suggest a while back, and got scoffed, that we start a SERIOUS program to buy guns from the family when the owner dies. The gun owner is mortal. The guns are not.

McMike
06-02-2019, 12:25 PM
. . . With respect, McMike, that is defeatist and not a mind-set that I normally associate with Americans. . . . Nobody ever won a fight by going into it with the attitude that 'the other guy is so much bigger and stronger than I am, so I might as well not even try...'

It very well may be defeatist, but it's clear that there aren't nearly enough states to change The Constitution and, as least for the next generation, the number of minds that need to be changed arn't going to be changed. What the topic as devolved into is a wedge issue that is used as a tool to keep us divided. IF you ask many red voters what makes them keep voting red; it's gun rights. They stop listening as soon as they hear a peep about gun control. No, it isn't going to change.

McMike
06-02-2019, 12:28 PM
I don't think we need an amendment, but we do need to put the 2nd amendment in context. Art 1 sec 8 references the militia. It was to armed and trained BY THE GOVERNMENT. It was to be called up to repel invasions, suppress uprisings, and enforce laws.

We haven't needed that militia (A well regulated militia being necesssary... is how the 2nd begins) since we got police, National Guard, and military. The 2nd Amendment needs to be deemed as moot as the 3rd, and for the same reasons.

The precedence has already been set by the SCOTUS. But if you want to keep losing politically, keep it up.

mmd
06-02-2019, 12:52 PM
John, it may be that what needs to be changed is the attitude to gun ownership, not merely the possession of them. In 1800 many Americans felt that the owning of people was necessary to the well-being and growth of the country, but less than a century later that was shown to be untrue. In modern times, Americans are free of slavery unless the nation is threatened, when military conscription can force men to arms. Maybe you can look to a future when weapons are viewed like slaves, abhorrent and the ownership thereof only the purview of the government, entrusted to keep them from the hands of the general public except in times of dire need. Yes, yes, I know that you are indoctrinated from infancy to believe that you can't trust 'government' (and the current version seems to be working hard at proving that, but I digress), but isn't the point of Democratically-elected government 'of and for the people', complete with safeguards against dominance by a single person or party, to govern for the betterment of the populace? Isn't the point of constitutional amendments the ability to correct deficiencies and errors in the basic fabric of governance? Your society seems to be suffering an existential threat which will continue to slaughter your fellow citizens unless corrected. If you and your fellow citizens do not stand up and shout 'enough!', how many thousands more innocents will die? At what price freedom, eh?

Peerie Maa
06-02-2019, 02:27 PM
Many people seem to be seduced by the simplistic, no guns, no gun deaths, rather than look at the root causes of gun deaths.
A large fraction of gun deaths in the US are suicides. Self immolation is a complicated subject and is actually legal in some states. Some suicides probably would be grateful for an intervention and I'm all for better and more accessible mental health care. A lot of people who need progress to suicide would probably benefit as well.
So called mass shootings generate alarming headlines, but about half of them are the end stage of domestic violence. Again, improved intervention earlier in the domestic violence episode might not only prevent these, but alleviate a lot of sublethal misery.The root cause of gun deaths is easy access to guns. Guns make suicide so quick, easy, and certain. Without guns potential suicides have to give themselves time to think about how determined they are, and are given time to seek help if they change their mind. Guns deny them both of those opportunities to survive.

skuthorp
06-02-2019, 05:30 PM
Just as I said McMike #62, 30,000+ gun deaths a year are 'cultural'. I think it was Donn that told me thatÖÖÖ..

amish rob
06-02-2019, 05:35 PM
Again and again you do me grave disservice by running your mouths about NOBODY DOING ANYTHING.

It is WRONG, so stop saying it.

You are all welcome to come here, and help. There are people doing something.

Well trying.

Peace,
Robert

WX
06-02-2019, 05:37 PM
The longer it’s not dealt with the worse it is going to get. No one is laughing at or putting the boot into the US over this and I don’t see it getting better in my lifetime.
How many here watched the video I posted?

McMike
06-02-2019, 05:40 PM
Just as I said McMike #62, 30,000+ gun deaths a year are 'cultural'. I think it was Donn that told me that………..

You think I don't know the score? You want to keep reminding me? I don't think I get it . . . Lol, see, no, it's you who doesn't get it . . . it is cultural. And when you figure out how to fix that, you can let me know, but I know for a fact you don't have a clue where to start. But damn, you sure are gonna get your digs in.

WX
06-02-2019, 05:46 PM
Again and again you do me grave disservice by running your mouths about NOBODY DOING ANYTHING.

It is WRONG, so stop saying it.

You are all welcome to come here, and help. There are people doing something.

Well trying.

Peace,
Robert
Sadly nowhere near enough of the people who have the power to effect change are doing that. If the politicians, legislators and legal system won’t act what hope have you got?

amish rob
06-02-2019, 05:52 PM
Sadly nowhere near enough of the people who have the power to effect change are doing that. If the politicians, legislators and legal system wonít act what hope have you got?

What, exactly, is your beef?

Sorry Iím not enough.

But, you flaunt your ignorance to your own delight, apparently, so carry on being disrespectful and rude.

Peace,
Robert

WX
06-02-2019, 06:01 PM
What, exactly, is your beef?

Sorry I’m not enough.

But, you flaunt your ignorance to your own delight, apparently, so carry on being disrespectful and rude.

Peace,
Robert
How am I being disrespectful and rude? I am trying to understand how owning a semi automatic weapon is more important than the lives of school children. And from what you have said and had to deal with would agree?
I have a daughter and three grandchildren of school age in the US so maybe you can understand my concern?

amish rob
06-02-2019, 06:05 PM
How am I being disrespectful and rude? I am trying to understand how owning a semi automatic weapon is more important than the lives of school children. And from what you have said and had to deal with would agree?
I have a daughter and three grandchildren of school age in the US so maybe you can understand my concern?


You insist that NOBODY is doing anything.

That is a lie. And wrong. And not true. And incorrect.

I AM! How exactly do you THINK laws are passed? Eh? Someone writes them, then finds support from politicians, then...

It is a process, and not a thing I am in position to force. Apologies for being poor and stupid and starting in my own neighborhood, town, county, and, eventually, state, but I’m working HARD to change our society.

But, keep insisting we all LOVE what’s going on, and are FINE with it, and DON’T care to do ANYTHING.

THAT is disrespectful to me, and the mother of the dead kid in whose name we work.

Peace,
Robert

WX
06-02-2019, 10:51 PM
You insist that NOBODY is doing anything.

That is a lie. And wrong. And not true. And incorrect.

I AM! How exactly do you THINK laws are passed? Eh? Someone writes them, then finds support from politicians, then...

It is a process, and not a thing I am in position to force. Apologies for being poor and stupid and starting in my own neighborhood, town, county, and, eventually, state, but I’m working HARD to change our society.

But, keep insisting we all LOVE what’s going on, and are FINE with it, and DON’T care to do ANYTHING.

THAT is disrespectful to me, and the mother of the dead kid in whose name we work.

Peace,
Robert

I have never implied that no one is doing anything, there has been a lot of grassroots level work (yours included) gone into to changing the gun laws. I am saying that those with real power to do something are doing nothing...big difference.
Also, there have been a very few forum members I have considered stupid, you are NOT on the list.

gypsie
06-03-2019, 01:09 AM
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-01/two-australians-made-a-viral-gun-control-video/11118340
38515

That is strong.

American gun laws are insane.
They so obviously have to change and yet they live on.
It is just insane.


38588

Thats a baby practicing for a live shooter in her school.

Durnik
06-03-2019, 10:31 AM
How exactly do you THINK laws are passed? Eh? A lobbiest writes them, then buys support from politicians,

ftfy.

Eyes Wide Eff'ing Open.

amish rob
06-03-2019, 10:34 AM
ftfy.

Eyes Wide Eff'ing Open.

Got it. So we are lobbyists buying support from politicians to change laws locally.

Nice to know.

Peace,
Apparently Blind

Durnik
06-03-2019, 12:13 PM
^ look at what most Americans seem to want vs what pols do.. and get back to me.

It's all bread and circus.

amish rob
06-03-2019, 12:38 PM
^ look at what most Americans seem to want vs what pols do.. and get back to me.

It's all bread and circus.


You can can do something about, like my friends and I are doing, or be quiet.

Go knock on you local politicians door and introduce yourself. Start on your own block, if you really want to change the world.

Get to work, and stop slagging us who do.

Peace,
Citizen

Durnik
06-03-2019, 02:05 PM
You can can do something about, like my friends and I are doing, or be quiet.

Go knock on you local politicians door and introduce yourself. Start on your own block, if you really want to change the world.

Get to work, and stop slagging us who do.

Peace,
Citizen

Pols don't listen, I talk with people. Some listen, some don't. But the U.S. has the best government money can buy, and as Carlin said - "it's a small club, and you/me ain't in it".

Most of America (the world) considers marijuana to be harmless to beneficial.. yet it is restricted as a dangerous narcotic.. in spite of the fact that medicine and science say otherwise.

In MA 30(40?) years ago, the state legislature passed a seatbelt law. The people immediately voted it out. The legislature immediately passed another one. The people voted it out. Again, the state passed a seatbelt law - with a rider preventing voter initiative from voting it out. Score another one for the lobbyists.. Insurance Company Profits trump (sorry 0-: ) our wishes.

If you're having fun, Cool! But it's best to not imagine fantasy is reality - see R. Feynman's most apropos comment re: the shuttle disaster.

Unless and until the people of America take the example of the good women of late 1700's France to heart, expect no change.

And it's not safe to imagine that because I don't do as you that I do nothing.

I leave with this from - https://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinnproblemobedience.html

"And our topic is topsy-turvy: civil disobedience. As soon as you say the topic is civil disobedience, you are saying our problem is civil disobedience. That is not our problem.... Our problem is civil obedience. Our problem is the numbers of people all over the world who have obeyed the dictates of the leaders of their government and have gone to war, and millions have been killed because of this obedience. And our problem is that scene in All Quiet on the Western Front where the schoolboys march off dutifully in a line to war. Our problem is that people are obedient all over the world, in the face of poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war and cruelty. Our problem is that people are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while the grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem. We recognize this for Nazi Germany. We know that the problem there was obedience, that the people obeyed Hitler. People obeyed; that was wrong. They should have challenged, and they should have resisted; and if we were only there, we would have showed them. Even in Stalin's Russia we can understand that; people are obedient, all these herdlike people. "

Decourcy
06-03-2019, 02:05 PM
You want to reduce guns used in violence? You want to reduce violence as a whole? Make it socially unacceptable.
Look at the opposite techniques used with alcohol and tobacco. Observe the results.
Force change and people will bristle with indignation. Make it uncool and you don't have to force it.
When the main characters in movies, tv, sports etc no longer were portrayed smoking, demand dropped. Once smokers were a minority, rules changed to make it harder to smoke.
Prohibition didn't work, but the change in culture has been working. People don't typically drink to excess in pop culture the way they once did. It's no longer cool to drink and drive. Bogart always had a cigarette and a glass, but no star does now. When they no longer drink in pop culture at all, demand will plummet, and rules can change.

Follow that pattern with guns and it can work, but it's not an instant change, and it means no more John Wick movies. Are you all here willing to pay that price? That's the culture that needs to change. If the US weren't already a violent place, maybe it could be trusted with the cultural triggers like violent movies and games, but as a place with a violence problems, it can't. The US is addicted to violence the way an alcoholic is addicted to booze. There's no way it can participate in the adult world without dealing with that.

Willing to change? I hope so.
If not, I'll see you all here, saying the same things, week after week, year after year.
I know which I expect.

Dave Lesser
06-03-2019, 02:29 PM
On Saturday, a second grader asked Pete Buttigieg about school shootings. Here's his response. Click on the video to turn on the sound;

https://twitter.com/BrendanMullen_1/status/1135267249189769216

skuthorp
06-03-2019, 04:16 PM
The boy will get abuse and death threats now.