Timber conversions? American to Aussie??

[Wild Dingo]

Now heres a question thats been buggin hell out of me for sometime now... timber

Now many of my to hand designs bein American use what the designer has to hand to construct ie: white oak and such American timbers now in buildin downunder white oak is non existant and exhorbitant in the extreme to buy... so what and where would one find a conversion comparison table for using Aussie timbers instead of American timbers?

[Ron Williamson]

First things first,it's called lumber.
A timber is a big chunk of LUMBER,part of a larger class of material known as wood.
It's bigger than a lath,board,plank,deal or baulk. :D tongue.gif
Otherwise,I can't help you.

[mmd]

I don't know of a published guide for such conversion, but this is how I'd go about it:

There is published data on the mechanical and working properties of North American wood species, and of those wood species commonly imported into North America. My book of choice is "The Encyclopedia of Wood" published by Adlard-Cole. The mechanical strength and other characteristics such as sheer, tensile strength, mass density, rot resistance, etc., are listed for each species.

I expect that some governmental agency or university in Australia has compiled similar data on the commercial wood species native to Australia. By matching the characteristics of an Australian wood to each of the specified American wood as closely as possible, you will create a "conversion table" suitable for selecting which native woods you could substitute for the species listed in the building plans.

[StevenBauer]

Or you could talk to some Aussie boatbuilders. Like the Duck Flat people. Get yer hands on some back issues of Australian Backyard Boatbuilder magazines. What woods have been used traditionally? Frame her up with those trees from your yard and trade some more of it for some planking stock. Keep us posted.

Steven

[Ken Hutchins]

Also let's get the sizes correct, ya see for common LUMBER a 2 x 4 is not known as a 4 x 2, a 2 x 10 is not known as a 10 x 2. the thickness dimension first, then the width. :D :D :D :D

[shamus]

My copy of the "Australian Timber Handbook" is many years old. It was published by CSIRO I think, and I daresay a copy could be found second hand. Alternatively you could just look up likely species on the net. Reasonably comprehensive data can be found - this on 'White Beech' is an example
06 White beech

Botanical Names: Gmelina fasciculiflora, G. leichhardtii, G. dalrympleana

Family Name: Verbenaceae

Local Names: beech, grey teak

Tree description and natural occurrence

A large tree attaining a height of 40 m and a stem diameter of 1.5 m. It has a straight slender trunk, usually circular in cross-section, often flanged at the base but not prominently buttressed. The bark is approximately 10 mm thick, is coloured light grey to dark grey and is rough and scaly with the scales generally angular but occasionally rounded.

Found in rainforests along the east coast of Australia:

G. fasciculiflora and G. dalrympleana - Rockingham Bay, Innisfail area, through to Cape York and Torres Strait Islands. G. leichhardtii - Clyde River, New South Wales to Fraser Island, Queensland. Also further north on the Eungella Range and Mt Elliot (south of Townsville).

Sawn timber of these species is not readily available.* Other species of Gmelina are imported from PNG, Solomon Islands and Fiji.

Wood appearance

Colour.* The heartwood ranges from pale straw to light grey-brown. There is no noticeable colour difference between sapwood and heartwood.

Grain.* A firm, close grained, slightly greasy wood. At times it has interlocking grain. There is no pronounced figure or sheen except for a glistening effect on dressed surfaces due to tyloses in the vessel lines.

Wood properties

Density.* 515-545 kg/m3 at 12 % moisture content; approximately 1.8 m3 of seasoned sawn timber per tonne.

Strength Group.* S6 unseasoned; SD6 seasoned. (G. leichhardtii).

Stress Grades.* F4, F5, F7, F8 (unseasoned), F7, F8, F11, F14 (seasoned), when visually stress graded in accordance with AS 2082:2000, ‘Visually stress-graded hardwoods for structural purposes.’

Shrinkage to 12% MC.* 3.7 percent (tangential); 1.6 percent (radial). These values are for G. leichhardtii only.

Unit Shrinkage. 0.26 percent (tangential); 0.15 percent (radial). These values apply to timber of G. leichhardtii reconditioned after seasoning.

Durability.* Class 1 - Highly resistant to decay in-ground contact or in persistently damp or badly ventilated situations.

Lyctid Susceptibility.* Untreated sapwood susceptible to lyctid borer attack.

Preservation.* Sapwood readily accepts preservative impregnation but penetration of heartwood is negligible using currently available commercial processes.

Seasoning.* Air seasons very slowly. Requires mild schedules for satisfactory kiln drying.

Hardness.* Soft (rated 5 on a 6 class scale) in relation to indentation and ease of working with hand tools.

Machining.* Machines well due to its slightly greasy nature.

Fixing.* Because of the natural acidity of this species, non-corrosive fittings and fastenings should be used.

Gluing.* Can be satisfactorily bonded using standard procedures.

Finishing. *Will readily accept stain, polish and paint.

Uses

Decorative.* Furniture, joinery, carving, turnery, picture frames.* Considered the premier carving timber in Queensland.

Others.* Boat building (decking, planking). Has been used for draughtsperson’s implements, templates, pattern making, cask bungs, brush stock, venetian blind slats, beehives. Was used to some extent in general building framing in the early to mid 1900s, and in flooring, lining, mouldings, joinery and cladding, but use in such applications has been very infrequent for some decades.

Identification features

General characteristics

Sapwood.* Not distinctly different in colour from heartwood.

Heartwood.* Pale straw to light grey-brown.

Texture.* Medium to coarse, grain often interlocked.

Wood structure

Growth Rings.* Absent.

Vessels.* Medium in size, barely visible without a lens; many solitary but some in short radial multiples or groups of 2 or 3. Vessel lines distinct. Tyloses common; whitish deposits also common in vessels and sometimes in rays; sometimes visible without a lens on longitudinal surfaces.

Parenchyma.* Not visible under a lens.

Rays.* Fine.

Other features

Burning Splinter Test.* Gives a full, greyish-white to buff coloured ash. Burns with a crackling noise.

Odour.* Freshly cut surfaces have a faint sour odour.

Cutting.* A sharp knife cuts this species across the grain with distinctive ease, leaving a very smooth surface with a soapy feel.

For information on technical terms consult Timber Species note No.1.* For more information and publications about growing, processing and pests and diseases of Queensland hardwood timbers, visit forestry research or call the DPI&F Call Centre: 132 533

Further reading

Ilic, J. 1991. CSIRO Atlas of Hardwoods. Crawford House Press.

Tree Talk, Inc 1994. Woods of the World Pro. CD Rom.

Boland, D.J., Brooker, M.I.H., Chippendale, G.M., Hall, N., Hyland, B.P.M., Johnston, R.D., Kleinig, D.A. and Turner, J.D. (1984) Forest Trees of Australia. CSIRO, Australia.

Updated: March 2004

[Ken Hutchins]

Hey Shane, I know where there is some real good quarter sawn American white oak down there. Ya gots to visit the rum distillery in Bundaburg. Ayah the vats they make the rum in are white oak. Now all you have to do is find the valve to empty a vat and requesition the oak. :D ;)

[paladin]

get a load of old growth Huon Pine and laminate it up and use it for eVERYTHING>>>>>

[RonW]

Timber conversion -or -Wood species subsitution.

Simple- weight, weight is the main factor, most of the other characteristics will be along the same line if the weight is, except rot resistance. Subsitute species along a simular weight and rot resistance scale.

White oak is 47 to 48 lbs. a cubic foot and is considered to have good rot resistance.

[Bruce Hooke]

Hmmm...weight and rot resistance do not quite cover everything. For example, some dense woods steam bend very well, others are quite poor. None-the-less, it is probably a good starting point...

[ssor]

Wild Dingo, I've doing a little web surfing since I was your request. Try this link: http://www.timbersa.co.za/ICD/GradingComparison/ gradingcomparison.asp#2-2

It is not exactly what you are looking for but it might point you in the right direction.

[Nicholas Carey]

Hey, Dingo! What are you doing above decks? :D

If you want to know the engineering properties of North American woods, a good source is The Wood Handbook—Wood as an Engineering Material (http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm) (General Technical Report FPL-GTR-113), published by—our tax dollars at work—The United States Forest Service Forest Products Laboratory (http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/).

You can download it from the above link as a series of Adobe Acrobat (PDF) files, 1 per chapter, plus front/back matter. It's hard to beat the price.

Or, if you want hardcopy (printing the above PDF files on your dime will exceed the price of the book), you can order a hardcopy from a couple of sources (US government publications are public domain, by law.) One good source is Lee Valley/Veritas Tools (http://www.leevalley.com) in Canada for USD $22.95 (approximately AUD $30 or so via credit card). The Lee Valley edition is quite nice. And Rob Lee is a downright nice guy (so is his dad, the company founder).

The Forest Products Society also publishes an edition (http://www.forestprod.org/shop/), but it's USD $39.

And finally, the US Government Printing Office (http://bookstore.gpo.gov/) also publishes an edition (http://bookstore.gpo.gov/) (natch!), but it's USD $50 for in-country sales and $70 (meep!) for international sales.

Or your local library might be able to scare up a copy via interlibrary loan.

Cheers!

[Bob Smalser]

I don't have anything with the Australian equivalent of USDA data on your native woods.

But these folks will know:

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/

[ssor]

Dingo, My USDA wood handbook lists some Eucalyptus speces as comparable in strength and durability to american white oak but more difficult to work. It does not list bending characteristics. My best guess is to talk to a sawmill man near one of the large rivers or the coast. They know an awful lot about wood even if they don't use much. The web also lists Paulownia wood as light, strong and very durable and grown extensively in Australia.

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

Wow. :eek:
The guys have it pretty well covered so I'll just say Howdy and good day to you Shane. ;) :D

[PeterSibley]

Evening Shane :D :D Nice to see you .
Re the timber comparison.Give up.There is nothing from North America even half as hard and indestructible as your WA timbers!!! Hoop pine from the East is a pretty reasonable substitute for most of the pines, a bit heavier and good stuff for boats ,Qld cedar is a good sub for their cedars,again heavier but still OK .That US white oak is beautiful bending timber,green spotted gum is good too....but heavier and doesn't seem to bend quite as well.( I don't really know...I haven't used them on the same job) Its probably possible to find almost exact substitutions in the books but actually finding the timber itself may prove more difficult than its worth. ;)

[ssor]

Hi Dingo, made use of the web and got this answer:

Hi Ross. Probably the nearest equivalent to white oak would be messmate (Eucalyptus obliqua). It has similar density and durability properties. There are many other Australian hardwoods suitable for boatbuilding, but messmate is one that is fairly plentiful.



PETER LLEWELLYN ("Harry & Sal")

National Association of Forest Industries

This is from an Aussie web site.
Ross

[Banjo]

Probably the nearest equivalent to white oak would be messmate (Eucalyptus obliqua Messmate!! Yikes, horrible stuff.. Stone the flamin crows even! It used to be popular for house frame material but fast growth plantation pine is now mostly used.
My memory of messamte when I was in me prime as a young buck knockin up houses was it buckled, twisted, shrunk, cupped, warped, shaked, shimmied and even rocked and rolled at times, LOL :)
To be fair this stuff was straight from the mill and still very green due to demand, they couldn't mill timber fast enough to keep up with all the builders orders. (ahh those were the days)
If it's cut properly and stacked properly to air dry it's not bad.

[ 02-07-2005, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Banjo ]

[Wild Dingo]

Gidday fellas! Thanks for the responses! Flamin eck yous blokes are bobby dazzlers in the info on anything department! :cool:

Messmate? that does surprise me! Ive seen some down at the mill at Binningup and wouldnt have thought of boat timber for a use... mmmm considerable thought happenin ;) Although from the sounds of what banjo says it has similar properties to this Tuart Ive got... bloody stuff! ah well Im managin to salvage some lengths and it will move to Kal in the next few weeks/month when we relocate

Peter your right about our hardwoods mate... and Ive recently had a few {lets say a few too many!} beers with a bloke out in Kambalda who was till recently one of the few sandlewood and timber millers out there and theres a wee window of opportunity to tap his noggin regardin timber before he buggars off on his long awaited tour around Aussie... so will see what timbers he knows of that could be used and other such info that may be in his old codgers mushy stuff ;)

Chuck! Hows it angin ol fella?!! good to see yer name in here bloke! As for Huon Pine man I dont believe its available as far as I know and if it were I think the cost to purchase it and have it bought over to the west coast of Aussie would probably blow the bank of England and Fort nox!!

ssor... Paulownia is quite readily available around Mandurah but they seem to increase its value at the mention of the words "I want to build a boat" cheeper to go to the mill and buy Jarrah than go local and get that stuff...
Hey! Mate thanks for all the effort in this! :cool:

Thanks for the ubeaut site link mate Ive been a bloody fud tryin to think of it after this thing crashed an burned all me favorites!!! cheers mate!

Nicholas ol son I actually wander above decks quite often!! :cool: great place above decks dontcha know! ;) actually since Ive been out in the goldfields I get buggar all access to the net and what I do costs an arm two legs and the ducks knuts!! so when I do I tend to come upstairs and gather info rather than downstairs and phiss phart and carry on! :D Not that I dont enjoy that sorta thing just that me time on here lately is bloody precious so I dont wanna waste it... but in so sayin... I am on R&R at present so visitations downstairs are possible! :eek:

[ssor]

Hey Dingo, White oak isn't the nicest stuff to work either. It has tyloses(sp) in the pores that make it very slow to dry but also make it water tight. If you need those links we can re-send them.
Ross in Bel Air

[botebum]

Dingo, I've got some acorns I could let go cheap. Are ya in a hurry?