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CK 17
04-23-2019, 03:25 PM
35956

Katherine
04-23-2019, 03:31 PM
Welcome to America, if the disease doesn't kill you, the bill will!

Figment
04-23-2019, 03:34 PM
someone please tell me again how the tax burden of universal health care would overburden our economy.

Katherine
04-23-2019, 03:42 PM
someone please tell me again how the tax burden of universal health care would overburden our economy.
Ask a Trump supporter.

Flying Orca
04-23-2019, 03:47 PM
Funny, I didn't see a single bill (other than parking, which is admittedly outrageous) when Oystagirl was going through treatment. There wasn't even a death panel.

Not for the first time, I'm really glad my family moved to Canada.

john welsford
04-23-2019, 04:05 PM
A friend of mine has been getting treatment for cancer for three years now. He lives an hour away from the hospital, and after a session on the chemo machine is not able to drive for a couple of days, so his social worker arranged a cab to pick him up and take him home. He was unable to work which meant that he lost his rented accommodation so she not only arranged a very nice little apartment close to his friends and contacts, she got his financial support benefit raised to cover the rent, his living expenses, and a little to spare so he'd "have a life".
The treatment itself has involved several stays in hospital, major surgery, much chemo, radiation therapy, the new "targeted microwave" therapy and long term medication.

His bill to date, zero.

John Welsford

skuthorp
04-23-2019, 04:10 PM
And then there's Peter, our health care system picked up just about everything other than hospital car parking.

John of Phoenix
04-23-2019, 04:38 PM
Maybe 20 years ago, I had a friend, no insurance, who was diagnosed with cancer and passed six months later. His wife called and said she had a bill for over $200,000 from the hospital and it would wipe her out. I told her call the hospital to see if she could work out a payment plan. To our mutual astonishment, they wiped the slate clean - ZERO due.

My cancer bill for two surgeries (bilateral radical tonsillectomy and later a lymphotomy), two months of radiation and chemo was just over $256,000. Six months of physical and speech therapy were an additional $9,000. I was out of pocket around $7,000 and damn grateful it was that little.

That bill above, the insurance picked up $1,346 for the room and that's IT? What company is that from?

CWSmith
04-23-2019, 04:51 PM
someone please tell me again how the tax burden of universal health care would overburden our economy.

I don't think it will be significant at all. It will offset the insurance payments we make now, enable the government to negotiate reduced rates on drugs, and most of the increase will be due to funding people who currently have no insurance at all. Since they tend to go to the emergency room, where treatment is very expensive, I don't think we're looking at a big increase in cost.

john welsford
04-23-2019, 04:55 PM
To add to my post above, on a different but related topic, one of my brothers in law is insulin dependent, the cost to him is about US$32 a month.

John Welsford

McMike
04-23-2019, 05:29 PM
If I ever got diagnosed with cancer, I'd OD on something. THere's no way I'd leave that to my love ones or, if I survived, be an indentured slave because I got to live. Our country sucks.

Too Little Time
04-23-2019, 05:46 PM
...
In the US we have the ACA. So being uninsured is for the most part a choice.

Perhaps a bit of background about why the individual did not have insurance. Perhaps a bit about why the individual did not negotiate the bill.

CK 17
04-23-2019, 05:54 PM
In the US we have the ACA. So being uninsured is for the most part a choice.

Perhaps a bit of background about why the individual did not have insurance. Perhaps a bit about why the individual did not negotiate the bill.
Perhaps stop blaming the victim. . .

Todd D
04-23-2019, 06:08 PM
My treatment for leukemia last year cost a bit over $200K. For that I got seven grams of the treatment drug put into me by IV over the course of 8 afternoon sessions as an out patient. That bill did not include about $20K for doctor's visits and blood tests. My cost $0 because I am on Medicare and have a Medicare supplement policy that picked up the $40K in Medicare copays. My cost for insurance premiums for the 6 months of treatment was about $1.8K ($310/mo).

The sad part of this is that it will hapen again since my leukemia is incurable. I am in remission now though, so yippee!

john welsford
04-23-2019, 06:23 PM
In the US we have the ACA. So being uninsured is for the most part a choice.

Perhaps a bit of background about why the individual did not have insurance. Perhaps a bit about why the individual did not negotiate the bill.

A American friend of mine, with three teenagers, was made redundant from what had traditionally been a very secure job several years ago, could not find a job so started a small business. He tells me that his health insurance under the ACA costs him just under $9k a year. There are a lot of people for whom that is beyond their means. On top of rent, groceries and the other essentials of life. Thats not a choice.

John Welsford

McMike
04-23-2019, 06:28 PM
A American friend of mine, with three teenagers, was made redundant from what had traditionally been a very secure job several years ago, could not find a job so started a small business. He tells me that his health insurance under the ACA costs him just under $9k a year. There are a lot of people for whom that is beyond their means. On top of rent, groceries and the other essentials of life. Thats not a choice.

John Welsford

My health insurance under the ACA is $8400/year. I still have substantial co-pays and deductibles.

Flying Orca
04-23-2019, 07:06 PM
Fscking barbaric. Probably need more guns.

Too Little Time
04-23-2019, 07:38 PM
Perhaps stop blaming the victim. . .
Perhaps if you did not present the individual as a victim. Tell more of the story.

Old Dryfoot
04-23-2019, 07:42 PM
Obscene.

Too Little Time
04-23-2019, 07:44 PM
A American friend of mine, ...
We are not talking about your friend. We are talking about someone who made what appears to me to be an irrational decision. If they cannot pay for insurance as in your friend's case, they cannot pay the bill and most likely will not need to pay the billing.

But details are missing.

CK 17
04-23-2019, 07:54 PM
It’s not ok to have to negotiate a bill from $58,000 down to zero while trying to cope with cancer. The market is not solving this problem. The individual details aren’t important. the basic fact is some in this country are being left behind.

Paul Pless
04-23-2019, 08:29 PM
In the US we have the ACA. So being uninsured is for the most part a choice.no one is this stupid

Duncan Gibbs
04-23-2019, 08:41 PM
no one is this stupid
Want a bet?

Fitz
04-23-2019, 08:50 PM
I had some hefty co-pays for surgeries, otherwise I am thankful I didn’t see the price tag.

john welsford
04-24-2019, 02:49 AM
We are not talking about your friend. We are talking about someone who made what appears to me to be an irrational decision. If they cannot pay for insurance as in your friend's case, they cannot pay the bill and most likely will not need to pay the billing.

But details are missing.

You might not, but I am, I'm offering that example as an indication that so many people wont be fortunate enough to have the choice between insured and not.

I am fortunate enough to live in a country with socialised healthcare, medical insurance is not something that I have to worry about, pay for, or hold. I like it that way.

John Welsford

Canoeyawl
04-24-2019, 03:28 AM
We are not talking about your friend. We are talking about someone who made what appears to me to be an irrational decision. If they cannot pay for insurance as in your friend's case, they cannot pay the bill and most likely will not need to pay the billing.

But details are missing.

Yes, details are missing, and carefully hidden. Not everyone is a stable genius, most people are only average and capable of average reasoning.
A severe illness may preclude objective, cold and calculating decisions and luck can play a part. The heatlhcare for profit system in this country is inhumane. We used to call it "kicking them when they are down"

Canoeyawl
04-24-2019, 03:32 AM
If I ever got diagnosed with cancer, I'd OD on something. THere's no way I'd leave that to my love ones or, if I survived, be an indentured slave because I got to live. Our country sucks.

A detail;
"Insurance companies exist to help protect people and businesses from unforeseen events rather than to pay a benefit for events that are planned. When it comes to the unfortunate situation of suicide, it’s clearly in no one’s interest to create a financial incentive for someone to take their own life. This is why many life insurance policies include clauses—such as the incontestability clause and a specific suicide exclusion clause—that serve to discourage a person from taking out a life insurance policy with the sole intention of ending their lives for the financial benefit of their surviving beneficiaries."

skuthorp
04-24-2019, 03:42 AM
I think I'd have an 'accident' whilst out sailing in the open ocean in my canoe…………..

JayInOz
04-24-2019, 04:25 AM
A few weeks ago my mate Colin was experiencing vertigo, which got worse over a couple of days. His wife drove him to town to see a doctor, who sent him to our nearest big hospital for tests, which went on for a week. He was told he had a brain tumor, and was immediately taken by helicopter to a Sydney hospital where he underwent surgery the next day. He was there for almost a month, and his wife was also provided with an apartment next to the hospital. He's home now but having follow up treatment and numerous doctors visits in the short term. None of this has cost him a cent. And there are morons who think this is some sort of evil socialism and should be stopped? See how they feel when it's one of their own who gets to choose between death and crippling debt. Keep in mind that the moron in chief who wants to scrap health care for all is a billionaire who can afford the latest treatments from anywhere in the world for himself and his family. Maybe I'm missing something. Explain it to me TLT. JayInOz

Peerie Maa
04-24-2019, 04:38 AM
Yes, details are missing, and carefully hidden. Not everyone is a stable genius, most people are only average and capable of average reasoning.
A severe illness may preclude objective, cold and calculating decisions and luck can play a part. The heatlhcare for profit system in this country is inhumane. We used to call it "kicking them when they are down"

AKA "Profiting from human suffering".

Jim Bow
04-24-2019, 08:54 AM
And to think Boris Johnson wants to offer the NHS to American healthcare companies.

Duncan Gibbs
04-24-2019, 09:14 AM
And to think Boris Johnson wants to offer the NHS to American healthcare companies.
He's a scumbag.

jonboy
04-24-2019, 09:16 AM
The first two entries look like room and room service. haha cant be . and im not making light of this cos maybe it is so. tell me its not. 30K ouch.

CWSmith
04-24-2019, 09:19 AM
I almost started a separate thread inviting anyone that wanted to explain why socialized medicine is a bad idea.

But then I was forced to admit that the arguments haven't changed, they still aren't right, and what would be the point of inviting all that misinformation?

Either government exists for the people, or it exists for corporations. The United States needs to make that decision and commit to it.

Peerie Maa
04-24-2019, 09:22 AM
Either government exists for the people, or it exists for corporations. The United States needs to make that decision and commit to it.

You think that they did not make that decision decades ago?

CK 17
04-24-2019, 09:29 AM
We are not talking about your friend. We are talking about someone who made what appears to me to be an irrational decision. If they cannot pay for insurance as in your friend's case, they cannot pay the bill and most likely will not need to pay the billing.

But details are missing.
The point of this thread is to highlight the barbarism of healthcare in the United States. Regardless of the ultimate financial outcome, this is how the battle with cancer starts—with a huge bill.

John of Phoenix
04-24-2019, 09:33 AM
Oh yeah, I almost forgot -

"LET HIM DIE! LET HIM DIE! LET HIM DIE! LET HIM DIE!"

Sweet Mother of God reds are Heartless.

Flying Orca
04-24-2019, 09:50 AM
You think that they did not make that decision decades ago?

Around the time they decided corporations ARE people, they appear to have chosen which "people" they were there to serve.

CWSmith
04-24-2019, 09:53 AM
You think that they did not make that decision decades ago?

I think our government is divided and when the laws were changed to let corporations contribute more heavily to campaign finance, and when we continue to run our elections as privately funded campaigns, even the best politicians need to raise the money to compete. So, no, I don't think the decision was made decades ago. I think the battle is still being fought and we need to engage in that battle, recognize the root problem, and fix it.

Canoeyawl
04-24-2019, 10:52 AM
Oh yeah, I almost forgot -

"LET HIM DIE! LET HIM DIE! LET HIM DIE! LET HIM DIE!"

Sweet Mother of God reds are Heartless.

Now contrast that to Terry Schiavo

Too Little Time
04-24-2019, 11:28 AM
The point of this thread is to highlight the barbarism of healthcare in the United States. Regardless of the ultimate financial outcome, this is how the battle with cancer starts—with a huge bill.
I would never have inferred that from the original post.

Maybe you don't realize this: In every country healthcare costs something. Sometimes the cost appears as an invoice - regardless of the ultimate financial outcome, and sometimes the cost appears as a tax bill.

I will end by writing what I have often written: Healthcare should be free for those below the median.

keith66
04-24-2019, 02:20 PM
My mother passed away recently at the age of 91 from stomach cancer, though she had been ill for about 6 months the cancer had been missed by her doctors. Once diagnosed she lived for three weeks & the level of care she recieved could not have been better if we had been paying for the finest private health care.
Over the years she has has heart problems & other stuff all sorted on the NHS. In truth if she had been diagnosed earlier it would have made little difference due to her age. Thing is here in the Uk most of us pay national insurance, its deducted at source from your wages. Its what should fund the NHS. But the desire to privatise & rob it blind in the name of profit is too much for the politicians to resist.

john welsford
04-24-2019, 03:26 PM
I would never have inferred that from the original post.

Maybe you don't realize this: In every country healthcare costs something. Sometimes the cost appears as an invoice - regardless of the ultimate financial outcome, and sometimes the cost appears as a tax bill.

I will end by writing what I have often written: Healthcare should be free for those below the median.

So those who "have" should pay for the healthcare of those who "have not"? Surely it would be easier to just make the system universal. Cut the for profit insurance companies and hospitals out of it altogether, that alone would much reduce the costs.



John Welsford

john welsford
04-24-2019, 03:29 PM
I think our government is divided and when the laws were changed to let corporations contribute more heavily to campaign finance, and when we continue to run our elections as privately funded campaigns, even the best politicians need to raise the money to compete. So, no, I don't think the decision was made decades ago. I think the battle is still being fought and we need to engage in that battle, recognize the root problem, and fix it.

My observation is that every dollar donated to a politicians election fund is a favour that has to be returned in some form or another, and the people or corporations that donate big sums of money expect big favours in return. Thats a serious problem and has ended up, not so much in my own country where there are very strict and audited limits on election spending, with corporations and the wealthy having undue influence on policy and lawmaking.

John Welsford

John of Phoenix
04-24-2019, 03:40 PM
Oh yeah, I almost forgot -

"LET HIM DIE! LET HIM DIE! LET HIM DIE! LET HIM DIE!"

Sweet Mother of God reds are Heartless.

Now contrast that to Terry Schiavo"No one does cognitive dissonance like reds."

John of Phoenix
04-24-2019, 03:41 PM
My observation is that every dollar donated to a politicians election fund is a favour that has to be returned in some form or another, and the people or corporations that donate big sums of money expect big favours in return. Thats a serious problem and has ended up, not so much in my own country where there are very strict and audited limits on election spending, with corporations and the wealthy having undue influence on policy and lawmaking.

John Welsford"The guy who donates 300 grand to your campaign isn't REALLY interested in better government." - John McCain.

Too Little Time
04-24-2019, 04:20 PM
So those who "have" should pay for the healthcare of those who "have not"? Surely it would be easier to just make the system universal. Cut the for profit insurance companies and hospitals out of it altogether, that alone would much reduce the costs.
It seems appropriate for the "haves" to pay. It seems inappropriate to require those at the median to pay 10% of their income in premiums as the ACA requires.

I don't believe that there will be any savings regardless of universality or not.

Peerie Maa
04-24-2019, 05:31 PM
I will end by writing what I have often written: Healthcare should be free for those below the median.

That will never fly, and I suspect that you know it won't.
However, a sliding scale of taxes, for example following this logic can work.



Tax Rate (Band)
Taxable Income
Tax Rate


Personal allowance
Up to £12,500
0%


Basic rate
£12,501 to £50,000
20%


Higher rate
£50,001 to £150,000
40%


Additional rate
Over £150,000
45%



To which you add National Insurance



Category letter
- £118 to £166 a week (£512 to £719 a month)
- Over £166.01 a week (£719.01 a month)



A
0%
13.8%



Median household disposable income in the UK last year was £28,400

Peerie Maa
04-24-2019, 05:38 PM
I don't believe that there will be any savings regardless of universality or not.

Really? Do the insurance providers not pay dividends to their shareholders? Are the administrators sorting out who pays what at every stage of the process not paid a wage?
Universal health care cuts those costs right out of the system.

Old Dryfoot
04-24-2019, 05:50 PM
As a single adult my monthly premium is $37.50. That is also the maximum premium for a single adult.

Too Little Time
04-24-2019, 06:34 PM
That will never fly, and I suspect that you know it won't.
It fits in with my goal of bringing those below the median up to the median.

I am sure you noticed that your tax rate chart indicates some people at the bottom pay no taxes. Here everyone with wages pays employment taxes of 15%. So your tax policy is not much different than what I suggest.


Really? Do the insurance providers not pay dividends to their shareholders? Are the administrators sorting out who pays what at every stage of the process not paid a wage?
Universal health care cuts those costs right out of the system.
I told you what I believe not will happen. There are certainly reasons to believe otherwise.

WI-Tom
04-25-2019, 01:22 AM
Either government exists for the people, or it exists for corporations. The United States needs to make that decision and commit to it.

They decided. Government is for the people. And the Supreme Court tells us corporations are people.

See how that works?

Tom

Kevin T
04-25-2019, 10:32 AM
I would never have inferred that from the original post.

Maybe you don't realize this: In every country healthcare costs something. Sometimes the cost appears as an invoice - regardless of the ultimate financial outcome, and sometimes the cost appears as a tax bill.

I will end by writing what I have often written: Healthcare should be free for those below the median.

Please enlighten us in how that would work for those people who are literally just over the median, say by $100.00 or even $1,000. What if they are just over the median by $1 are they then subject to the full premium load just like the guy making 6 or 7 figures? Inquiring minds want to know how you see this shaking out.

CK 17
04-25-2019, 10:56 AM
Something missing in this whole conversation is the dignity of the patient. Where’s the dignity in having to go to accounts receivable department at the hospital that just saved your life and basically beg for relief? Where’s the dignity in setting up a gofundme site?

There is dignity in paying your fair share of taxes and in exchange, getting health insurance from the government.

Too Little Time
04-25-2019, 11:00 AM
Please enlighten us in how that would work for those people who are literally just over the median, say by $100.00 or even $1,000. What if they are just over the median by $1 are they then subject to the full premium load just like the guy making 6 or 7 figures? Inquiring minds want to know how you see this shaking out.
I think that came up before. And someone made a correct observation.

Once your income less healthcare costs falls below the median you no longer have to pay for healthcare in that year. (there should be some adjustment for wealth also, but ...)

Too Little Time
04-25-2019, 11:06 AM
Something missing in this whole conversation is the dignity of the patient. Where’s the dignity in having to go to accounts receivable department at the hospital that just saved your life and basically beg for relief? Where’s the dignity in setting up a gofundme site?

There is dignity in paying your fair share of taxes and in exchange, getting health insurance from the government.
Does dignity come into effect when negotiating a price for a car or home?

But you do make an important point. Some people think that healthcare is a right that others have a obligation to provide. Some people think it is something they should pay their fair share of.

Peerie Maa
04-25-2019, 11:29 AM
It fits in with my goal of bringing those below the median up to the median.
You do not understand maths concepts like average and median, do you? :D

I am sure you noticed that your tax rate chart indicates some people at the bottom pay no taxes. Here everyone with wages pays employment taxes of 15%. So your tax policy is not much different than what I suggest.


No not really, it is progressive, not on/off as you suggest. The median as I posted is well over twice the level where tax becomes due.

Peerie Maa
04-25-2019, 11:32 AM
I don't believe that there will be any savings regardless of universality or not.


Really? Do the insurance providers not pay dividends to their shareholders? Are the administrators sorting out who pays what at every stage of the process not paid a wage?
Universal health care cuts those costs right out of the system.



I told you what I believe not will happen. There are certainly reasons to believe otherwise.What question is that answering?

Peerie Maa
04-25-2019, 11:40 AM
Does dignity come into effect when negotiating a price for a car or home?
Holy Mother of God, U R Silly.

But you do make an important point. Some people think that healthcare is a right that others have a obligation to provide. Some people think it is something they should pay their fair share of.
More BS
People paying taxes to fund universal health care are paying their fair share, just as buying motor insurance is paying their fair share. That is how insurance works.
Tax funded universal health care ensures that everyone without exception pays their share (unless they are on a really low income or are unable to work), thereby making it cheaper for everyone.

Too Little Time
04-25-2019, 11:45 AM
You do not understand maths concepts like average and median, do you? :D

No not really, it is progressive, not on/off as you suggest. The median as I posted is well over twice the level where tax becomes due.
I am sure if you do some math, you will find that we can bring everyone below the median up to the median without changing it.

I never suggested off and on. But as long as some amount of income is exempt, it is off for awhile and then on. That does not preclude a progressive tax once it is on.

Too Little Time
04-25-2019, 11:46 AM
What question is that answering?
Your question: "Really?"

Too Little Time
04-25-2019, 11:57 AM
(unless they are on a really low income or are unable to work)
And I think the median is a "really low income."

My use of the median and twice to median to divide the country into the poor, middle class, and rich is based on the typical economic definitions. I try to help the poor as much as possible by using the most expansive definition of that class. I try to punish as few of the rich by using the narrowest definition of that class.

You are free to uae any definitions you want. And any rational to support your opinions. But I don't think that preserving someone's dignity is a reason to tax them.

Peerie Maa
04-25-2019, 12:19 PM
And I think the median is a "really low income."

My use of the median and twice to median to divide the country into the poor, middle class, and rich is based on the typical economic definitions. I try to help the poor as much as possible by using the most expansive definition of that class. I try to punish as few of the rich by using the narrowest definition of that class.
As I said, you really do not understand maths concepts.

You are free to uae any definitions you want. And any rational to support your opinions. But I don't think that preserving someone's dignity is a reason to tax them.Sometimes you come across as an uncaring piece of work. You really want to kick people when they are down don't you.

john welsford
04-25-2019, 03:43 PM
It seems appropriate for the "haves" to pay. It seems inappropriate to require those at the median to pay 10% of their income in premiums as the ACA requires.

I don't believe that there will be any savings regardless of universality or not.

In all surveys not influenced by the vested interests, America spends more money per capita than anyone else, but is way down in terms of the results across the whole population.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-recent-years-health-spending-growth-slowed-u-s-comparable-countries

Heres how that expenditure scores

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/press-release/2014/us-health-system-ranks-last-among-eleven-countries-measures-access-equity

Healthcare in the USA is a hugely profitable industry, one that for the most part is there for profit not the well being of the population, and there are very powerful vested interests defending that. So in spite of considerable evidence to the effect that many other countries get better outcomes for half the expenditure, thats going to be very hard to change, if not impossible.

John Welsford

Too Little Time
04-25-2019, 05:07 PM
As I said, you really do not understand maths concepts.

Sometimes you come across as an uncaring piece of work. You really want to kick people when they are down don't you.
I was a bit more subtle in insulting your math ability.

I would never think that free healthcare for the poor is kicking them.