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BiggieSmallBoat
03-28-2019, 09:53 AM
For the past few years, I've lived and sailed on an old 27' GRP boat full-time, covering thousands of miles offshore. For a variety of reasons, though, I will have to sell this boat soon, and return to land.

I am now dreaming of a future journey that would begin by building a pocket cruiser, something in the 20-24' range, and taking it across the Pacific.

Though I have plenty of sailing and liveaboard experience, along with all the maintenance that comes with that, I have no boat-building experience and am looking for some advice. I welcome the challenge and commitment of such a project, and that, once completed, I will know the boat intimately, every facet, nook and cranny. That has been a problem for me on my current boat -- too many surprises, and the struggle of learning how to fix them on the fly, far from resources, without the right experience.

I'd like to build a medium-to-heavy displacement full or long-keel boat for safety and stability. Aesthetically, I'm a big fan of two-mast configurations, but on such a small boat that might be impractical. I also like double-enders for their looks, but am very aware of their practical limitations and the difficult of mounting stern hardware like a windvane.

A few designs that I am aware of, that have caught my eye, include:
- Amigo 22
- Spray 22
- Welsford Sundowner

I think I'd like a design I could strip plank and glass-over, but correct me if I'm wrong on that front. I would also build a tender using the same technique, first, before even thinking of tackling the actual project.

Any advice, or plan suggestions are much-welcomed.

Dale Gamble
03-28-2019, 10:19 AM
I can't offer any specific recommendations re vessels, but if you haven't yet, be sure to read John Guzzwell's tale of 4 years of mostly solo ocean cruising in his home-built 20 ft Trekka. His voyages were all undertaken back in the 1950s, he writes in a very unassuming way, and his little vessel is now being restored at the Victoria Maritime Museum in British Columbia. The Museum web site has a short video featuring Guzzwell.

J.Madison
03-28-2019, 11:23 AM
If I were building a small boat to cross the pacific, I would build it carvel because it is so much more enjoyable for me. Most people would strip build as you suggest. I would have a long straight keel in two pieces with the apex line of the rabbet right along the seam, so the rabbet can be cut easily before the timbers are assembled. My frames would be steam bent, as it is the fastest way to frame, though it does require access to good oak. I would look hard at a raised flush deck, both to increase your small cabin, and to provide reserve buoyancy for a boat that will feel so small compared to the big waves of a gale. My first effort would be to fit a junk rig, probably on a single mast, for the simplicity and make-it-yourselfity. I too love split rigs, maybe some sketching would reveal a gaff yawl configuration that works. The little mizzen would provide a "parking brake" keeping the head to wind while reefing or changing the other sails and when backing down on the anchor, it would give a handy place to lean, serve to balance the helm to allow sheet-to-tiller self steering, and could fly a mizzen staysail in combination with a big genoa to keep the dangerous boomed sails furled when the trades are blowing.

My boat would not be overly deep, wetted surface is a killer in light winds on a small boat. I might even fit a small centerboard with a medium draft fixed keel. At least medium draft (3-4') will be needed for any chance of room in the cabin. In bad weather the CB would be up to allow some give on the face of waves. Lead ballast, all outside, I'm not a proponent of very light boats.

Some boats that fit some or the other of the above ideas are Gilmer's Blue Moon, Benford's Badger, Crocker's Stone Horse, Fenwick William's Annie. Pics in that order.
http://sailboatdata.com/imagehelper.asp?file_id=6355

http://hookedonwoodenboats.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Sailing-Dory-by-Iceberg.jpeg

https://sailboatdata.com/storage/images/sailboat/photo/stone_horse_photo1.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bc/ad/75/bcad757087206087d86ee89965fbe72b.jpg

Falcon1
03-28-2019, 11:59 AM
Wow! I'm familiar with and like the other three a lot, but that Annie is breathtaking!

There is a Sundowner build on the forum.

Good luck and please keep us informed as you make your journey into boatbuilding.

Mike

willin woodworks
03-28-2019, 12:06 PM
I agree, Annie is a stunner.
Always liked the Stonehorse.

J.Madison
03-28-2019, 01:25 PM
In the double-ender realm, Gartside's Hannah II is a capable little ship. In fact, I would puruse Gartside's online catalog, he has a good variety of well designed craft in every size ranging from deep and heavy to light and delicate.

https://store.gartsideboats.com/collections/sailboats?page=2

The Atkins have quite a few boats in this range. Little Dipper is in the deep and narrow camp, but looks ocean worthy to me.

http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/index3.html

At the larger end of your range, the Eric Jr is a lovely boat.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0064/4382/products/Gartside_199-6-Sail-Plan_large.jpg?v=1392844284

http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/images/LittleDipper-1.gif

http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Photos/EricJr/Tyke-03.jpg

Timo_N62.9_E27.7
03-28-2019, 01:51 PM
34240

Two masts: check
Strip planked: check (mine is clinker)
Long keel: check



My current status:
34241

Andrew2
03-28-2019, 02:33 PM
Apart from the usual advice that buying a used GRP boat will be far cheaper than building a new one in wood... The key bit in the OPs list, is that he has no boatbuilding experience. Learning on the job with carvel will be a big and long curve.

Badger was mentioned, but big at 34ft. Benford has smaller dory based designs in a similar vein. Quite a nice one at 30 ft. It is still bigger than the OPs ideas, but would go together reletively quickly compared to classic plank on frame. Much also depends on if you have a forest out back, or have to buy milled planks. I suspect the latter, if the OP has been at sea for a while.
A2

skaraborgcraft
03-28-2019, 04:34 PM
Johnathon beat me to posting Fenwicks Annie. If you do not mind chines, George Beuhler did a 28ft Hagar, and another updated version with more displacement called Njord, plans for both are in the back of his books and i would not hesitate to take a Njord across the pacific, though i might want to put a bigger rig on it, most likely a junk. Also in ply and multichine from Paul Fisher,....

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Tasmand1.gif

Thats 24ft. http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yacht2024.htm#JUN

Actually a lot of boats capable in the right hands, including the Amigo. How much displacement can you afford? Im getting on a bit to enjoy surfing out in the open ocean, but there was a time it was fun, you can get a lot of fun and performance from ultra-light displacement boats, and having the ability to "run" is nice to know, even if 90% of the time the boat is powered down in displacement mode. Search out "black soo", if you do not need ultimate comfort and carrying capacity, a boat like this makes a lot of sense, to some people.

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.classicboat.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FBlack-Soo-construction-from-YW-1958-annual-1024x544.jpg&f=1

Its important you start a boat you know,or at least believe you can finish.

Geftb
03-29-2019, 09:56 PM
Bruce has a great thread on his 34' Venus Ketch (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?115780-Build-of-my-34-Venus-Ketch). There is a 28 ft version also mentioned in there somewhere.
A bit bigger than you are enquiring, but jeez... lovely boat to do what you want.
34363
Cutter version

skaraborgcraft
03-30-2019, 02:17 AM
I would have bought up the Venus 28, as it was for a very long time my idea of the perfect offshore boat for a single hander, it is however almost 10 tons of boat! Not what i call a pocket cruiser. The Hagar was a stretched 24ft, so no reason you could not reduce the frame spacings to reduce the size from 28 to 24ft.
I believe a "cheap" Moore 24 has been used for some years in the Pacific and a circumnavigation (or 2/3) by Webb Chiles. Unless the OP wants to actually build for the experience, far too many options out there if he wants to go sailing now, rather than chew on saw dust. Not that i ever regret the build process......

Priscilla
03-30-2019, 02:57 AM
Keep dreaming as in that length of boat for that journey you will be building a suffering nightmare.
As a precursor lock yourself in your wardrobe for a week and hose entire self until sodden daily.

wizbang 13
03-30-2019, 05:37 AM
I think the days of long distance cruising on a 24 'er are about over.Live aboard boats that sail the ocean tend to be full of stuff, not the clean lined yachts above. Where are the dingys, outboards, windmill, solar panels., awnings, fuel and water jugs,bbq,windvane,extra ground tackle,fenders....How you even get a 24'er through Panama Canal?But yes, strip plank it ,whatever. But then one is obligated to carry epoxy, saws, grinder,generator,drill.....ya do not fix em with hand tools. Plenty of windvanes mounted on double enders...they get cluttered up JUST as easily as any other boat.bruce

wizbang 13
03-30-2019, 06:26 AM
Strip planking does not need glassing.
Strip planking the dingy would be a mistake.(Maybe strip building). Chances are you would need a 4mm nesting SnG dink.
Then there is the engine thingy......

navydog
03-30-2019, 06:37 AM
I think the days of long distance cruising on a 24 'er are about over.Live aboard boats that sail the ocean tend to be full of stuff, not the clean lined yachts above. Where are the dingys, outboards, windmill, solar panels., awnings, fuel and water jugs,bbq,windvane,extra ground tackle,fenders....How you even get a 24'er through Panama Canal?But yes, strip plank it ,whatever. But then one is obligated to carry epoxy, saws, grinder,generator,drill.....ya do not fix em with hand tools. Plenty of windvanes mounted on double enders...they get cluttered up JUST as easily as any other boat.bruce

So pragmatic lol. As they say; there's the plan and then there's what actually happens.

skaraborgcraft
03-30-2019, 07:45 AM
Its not to say it cant be done, it just needs a different mindset to the majority. I confess i would probably not choose to go cruising again without an engine, but i CHOSE not to afford it, it would have meant another 12 months hard labour. I only had hand tools, enough for general and emergency repair, enough paint to re-coat the entire boat once, spare sails, 4 anchors, spare chain and warps. I never felt i was missing out on anything while at sea, only when rafting up alongside some Swedish bloke who looked like he purchased the contents of an entire chandlery shop......but we were both in the same place. Have the essentials really changed from a good sound and clean bottom, good sails, ground tackle and a china tea-pot?

TR
03-30-2019, 11:54 AM
The original small ocean cruiser.

34399344003440134403

skaraborgcraft
03-30-2019, 12:05 PM
^ Trekka was the first boat that put my thoughts about light displacement and offshore into gear. Trade offs at both end of the scale.
We need the OP to come back with more of his thoughts regarding his ideas and intentions.

peb
03-30-2019, 12:17 PM
Grey Seal or Ron Mhor?

BiggieSmallBoat
03-30-2019, 09:05 PM
Some of these suggested boats are really fantastic and are opening my eyes to a world of plans I didn't know existed.

Annie is beautiful and seems to be an almost perfect candidate.

The Gartside catalog is also impressive -- at least for someone like me who has only been exposed to the plans that can be perused on this website. If anyone else has good sources where plans can be browsed, I'm happy to visit.

As for space limitations and cluttering up the mess, I think I'm well prepared for that already. The boat I am on is fairly average in terms of interior space and storage for a 27', and I don't have standing headroom at 6'. Boats like the Dana 24 and the Flicka 20 were what originally turned me on to the capabilities of small craft. 27' may be substantially bigger than 24', but then again, I've seen 24' boats that felt bigger than my boat.

In any case, I'm not too concerned about finding space for solar panels, batteries, and other cruising gear, and I'm accustomed to a life without the luxuries that most of us take for granted, but it is one of the reasons why I prefer a medium-to-heavy displacement boat.

I think the reason I said I preferred strip-planking could be a result of my lack of knowledge on the subject. I trust and know epoxy, but not as much wood, and a glass and epoxied boat over a wood structure seems like the best of both worlds in my mind.

Rumars
03-30-2019, 09:31 PM
If you like the Flicka 20 build or buy one. There is always one on the market and it can be buildt strip planked and glassed over if you prefer building. The Flicka newsletter has a serialized report of building one, starts with #52http://www.flicka20.com/flicka-newsletters

Small boats rock
03-30-2019, 10:12 PM
I too was looking for a tiny long range cruiser, and found an answer in William Atkin's 'Perigee' design. I saw her in the water for the first time last week (picture attached) and was delighted with initial sea trials (I cruised local waters for a week). The 1934 design was meant for carvel, but mine is epoxy strip planked and glassed inside and out for the purpose of creating a really strong boat. It is too early to make a recommendation of my particular choice, but if you haven't already, it is worth checking out designs on the Atkin web site.

Lack of building experience would not stop you from building as skills can be learnt as you go. However, a lack of building experience would likely lead to an underestimation of just how big a job it is to build even a small boat. If the dream is to build as well as sail then go ahead and build what you want using whatever method you want, and be ready to not have a life other than boat building... but if the main objective is to go sailing and building is just a necessary evil, stick with buying an existing boat.

34453

Sailor
03-31-2019, 05:57 AM
I just looked up used Flicka 20....... They ain't cheap. Saw one that had filled with rainwater under a tree. Needed a full gut job on the interior. Who knows what damage her supporting structure may have caused with all that weight.... 10 grand. For a 20 foot boat that needed to essentially be completely rebuilt. Hull and rig were sound though. Aluminum mast. I was figuring maybe 5-10k for one in reasonable condition. The good ones were up over 20 and even 30 grand.

Don Z.
03-31-2019, 07:19 AM
I believe plans for “the original small ocean crossing yacht” are available from our sponsor:

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/sea-bird-26-1909

navydog
03-31-2019, 09:09 AM
I just looked up used Flicka 20....... They ain't cheap. Saw one that had filled with rainwater under a tree. Needed a full gut job on the interior. Who knows what damage her supporting structure may have caused with all that weight.... 10 grand. For a 20 foot boat that needed to essentially be completely rebuilt. Hull and rig were sound though. Aluminum mast. I was figuring maybe 5-10k for one in reasonable condition. The good ones were up over 20 and even 30 grand.

Don't bother with reeks and wrecks. There are plenty of good quality boats going cheaply.

Hugh MacD
03-31-2019, 09:50 AM
Gotta agree with Navydog. There are too many really worthy boats out there that just need some love and use. There was an Eric Jr completed hull up on Vancouver Island a while back that I think went for the cost of materials.

Small boats rock
03-31-2019, 11:03 PM
Gotta agree with Navydog. There are too many really worthy boats out there that just need some love and use. There was an Eric Jr completed hull up on Vancouver Island a while back that I think went for the cost of materials.

Eric Jr, now that's a nice design. I cast my eye over her lines a few times back when I was still trying to decide on the right design for my build. I'd put her right up there with folkboats and vertues.

FF
04-01-2019, 07:23 AM
A course on a boatbuilding school will pay itself back many times. You will be spending several years building. And consider a kitboat. Frank

BiggieSmallBoat
04-05-2019, 03:05 PM
I've done the whole, "go small, go now" thing. I didn't even know how to sail when I bought my current boat, and was baptized quickly in salty offshore passages. I'm glad I did it that way. I got to sail some of the most beautiful stretches of ocean and islands on the planet, for a very good price. In my opinion, too many people who want to live the cruising dream spend far too much time finding the perfect boat, or making their project boat "perfect", that they loose sight of their dream, or, when they finally get out there, discover it's not what they thought it would be.

At this point though, I'm more interested in the process, the skills I'd acquire along the way, and coming out the other end with something that I can look at say "I built that". And, if at that point I still am in such a fortunate position in my life where I can untie the lines, and set off across an ocean, I'll have the perfect craft to do so. If not, that's OK too, as I think I'll derive satisfaction from the process.

Of course, maybe it'll be frustrating and miserable and it won't be cathartic at all. Most of the work I've done on my current boat has been miserable, difficult and expensive. But a big part of that has to do with the inconveniences of living on it at the boat you're working on, suffering in hot sweaty boat yards (in the tropics) and dealing with finding parts and tools on remote islands and faraway places. And so I think one of the things I would look forward to most is the fact that, even on the frustrating days of the build process, I'll always be able to shut the door to the shed and walk away to deal with it another day -- which is a luxury I've never had on my boat.

==

Anyway, I've been doing my homework, and and slowly convincing myself that cold-molded construction is probably the way to go. I thought before that strip-planking would be better, but that was mostly an argument from an ease-of-construction point of view, and I hadn't considered that it be a less-stable method for a boat of this size.

I really like Gartside's Hannah II 24' Cutter, though I'd probably consider adding extra water tanks for endurance if I were to build it -- perhaps epoxy/wood conformal tanks below the floors or elsewhere.

I think at the very least I'll take some sort of boat-building course, and get some general woodworking experience. Though I do believe most can learn almost anything on their own, it's always much more efficient to get it straight from an experienced person.

J.Madison
04-05-2019, 03:27 PM
If you're doing it for the enjoyment of building, cold molded is not very enjoyable. It makes a good boat, but it is a slog to get through. Here is what I would do, build a glued lap dinghy now. That is your introduction. It will teach you to loft, line out, spile, and persevere. When complete it will serve as a weekend diversion and eventually as tender to the bigger boat. Then i would build the mother ship carvel. Hannah II can probably be built faster carvel than cold molded, though it does take more skill and better materials. You don't say where you will wash ashore, and that will have a lot to do with what materials are available.

If you were building just to go sailing, I would say strip build or buy a used boat. If you were going to use a crew of semi-skilled helpers I would say cold molded. Working alone for the enjoyment of it, carvel planking all the way.

Timo_N62.9_E27.7
04-05-2019, 03:40 PM
Why not go glued lap all the way, including the mother ship? If you practise it with the dinghy it will be perfected already when you start the big boat. I was learning half way the planking of my boat and it ended just when I thought I know how to do it|:)

BBSebens
04-05-2019, 04:00 PM
So pragmatic lol. As they say; there's the plan and then there's what actually happens.

Its true.

BiggieSmallBoat
04-05-2019, 05:39 PM
I think the reason I'm leaning toward cold-molded or strip-planking is a consequence of what I've been exposed to in the research I did before I bought my current boat, and from experiences along my journey. In Grenada, I met a man on a medium-sized wooden ketch. I'm not sure how old it was, but it was sunk and grounded up against the mangroves, and the man was trying to sell what he could salvage. He had left for one week, and in that one week it was unusually cloudy, his batteries drained, and his bilge pumps stopped.

With the cold-molded and strip-planking methods, it seems normal to cover the outer hull with a layer of cloth and epoxy, thus negating any issues of leaking below the waterline, but from what I've gathered, methods like carvel planking rely on caulking for their water tightness. To me, that sounds like more maintenance, and (because it's alien to me), I don't trust it like I do epoxy.

Meanwhile lapstrake seeps wholly dependent on the precision of my work for water-tightness, and I'm not sure how that makes me feel.

Again though, a lot of these opinions are probably a result of my ignorance more than anything else. Luckily, I have quite a bit of time before such a project will begin. I still need to sell this boat, move back to the states, go get one of those pesky "jobs", and settle back into land-based existence again.

J.Madison
04-05-2019, 06:04 PM
A new carvel boat will be dry if built with reasonalbe care. My boat is 60 years old and the bilge pumps have not come on once this winter. In the summer when sailing hard I do weep a little bit of water through the dry topside seams when I heel.

If you need a layer of plastic to feel good about your boat, you aren't alone. Cold molded boats are good boats. Some people don't seem to mind the never ending sanding and fairing, the space suits and respirators, temperature controlled build, mountains of consumable waste, and sticky spots in their hair. For most cold molded boats, you have to fully coat and fair the hull 3 separate times! That is a job that is miserable just once.

I'm just being a bit of a crotchety old snob, but somebody has to stick up for wooden boats! The truth is that the reputation for leaky old buckets is hardly fair, as people tend to be comparing boats that have lived hard for 6 or 8 decades with relatively new fiberglass boats. Of course the old wooden ones leak, they were probably built for a 30 year life! A new traditionally built wooden boat has no more maintenance requirements than a cold molded one until you get enough decades down the line that recaulking or replacing planks starts to come into play. Carvel boats often are a lot of work to maintain, but that is because we use way too much varnish, which isn't the fault of the planking method.

rayman
04-05-2019, 06:30 PM
Don't be put off by "Trekka"s" apparent small size, I met John Guzzwell when he lived in N.Z. He was a well built young fella and stood about 6'plus in his bare feet, but he had his life style down to a fine art.
Small B.R. did you design your own gaff rig or adapt from another Atkin design??? your little dreamship is looking pretty good on the water. It's hard to credit she is only 17ft. l.o.a.

now what's her name?????????????????

Small boats rock
04-05-2019, 06:58 PM
The rig is exactly to the specs in the plan except for: beefed up mast scantlings; boom jaws; and fully served synthetic standing rig. Yes she turned out much bigger than I expected. Just goes to show how misleading the length is as a measure of size. She is about 1900 kg cruising trim. Now if you'd looked at my site http://Geoffboat.weebly.com then you would know her name...

BiggieSmallBoat
04-05-2019, 07:51 PM
Enjoyed the build photos of Blow Fish, Geoff. What are your cruising plans for her? She seems like a capable little boat.

Andrew2
04-06-2019, 02:56 AM
Local friend built a& 15ft gaffer cutter. Strip followed by two layers of veneer and glass epoxy sheathed. First time build, though he had basic wood carpentry skills.
Prob cutting out the veneers and adding a bit more glass would have saved a bunch of time. Strip makes it easy to get the shape true on fewer moulds, while cold requires more moulds and relatively closed spaces ribbands, so nearly a complete male mould.

Small boats rock
04-06-2019, 05:17 AM
Enjoyed the build photos of Blow Fish, Geoff. What are your cruising plans for her? She seems like a capable little boat.

To be honest I don't know, but during the build I kept in mind the possibility of being at sea for longish periods of time in a range of conditions. Little by little I will find out what she can handle. When some cruises have actually been completed I will be able to answer.

gilberj
04-06-2019, 12:29 PM
My way of looking at this subject is sort of from the other perspective. Rather than picking a boat design I like and trying to make it fit, I'd analyse the needs and then start looking for qualifying boats.
What sort of voyaging will you do? Short hops of less than a week? Trans- ocean 20 - 40 or more?
How much weight allowance will you need for consumables, food, water and fuel. how much for equipment and spares, and personal effects?
might you have more than one person on board?
The boat needs to have sufficient stability. Most folks now figure the AVS (Angle of Vanishing Stability) should be beyond 130 degrees. Certainly the boat you choose should have a substantial righting lever at 90+ degree ( mast in the water knockdown). I like stiffer...for sail carrying, though that is possible at the expense of motion comfort.
the boat you choose must be sufficiently watertight...keep the water out. Several pumps for removing water that gets in.
It should be built and outfitted for the voyage.
I like two masts, but in a smaller boat I might opt for a single mast.
I would prefer a shorter rig than we normally see with a standard marconi sloop/cutter. I would probably choose a gaff rig, but a lot of small offshore sailors choose a junk rig. Again the shorter rig helps with sail carrying.
Just some thoughts.....more later.

peb
04-06-2019, 09:22 PM
Local friend built a& 15ft gaffer cutter. Strip followed by two layers of veneer and glass epoxy sheathed. First time build, though he had basic wood carpentry skills.
Prob cutting out the veneers and adding a bit more glass would have saved a bunch of time. Strip makes it easy to get the shape true on fewer moulds, while cold requires more moulds and relatively closed spaces ribbands, so nearly a complete male mould.I didn't think many people still built pure cold-molded hulls. Stripping it first saves a lot of labor,fewer moulds, no ribbands, fewer veneers.

George Ferguson
04-07-2019, 11:03 AM
I haven't seen anyone mention the Nordic Folkboat on this thread. Is there a reason why anyone thinks it wouldn't be a good bluewater pocket cruiser if it has a self-bailing cockpit? I've picked that design because of its low displacement and its reported seaworthiness and reports of folks making ocean crossing voyages in it. And, so that I could either tow it to different locations or use as a seaworthy single-handed cruiser in waters along the east and west coast lines of North America.

Ian McColgin
04-07-2019, 11:36 AM
Folkboats quite often cross oceans. Blondie Hasler's Jester was a Folkboat seriously modified in deck and rig. Post-WWII was a great time for small ocean going yachts like Folkboats, Vertues, and the phenomenon of MORC racing.

It had been thought that small boats were unsafe at sea, but in reality they are easily made safer than larger boats because stresses on rig and hull increase with displacement. A fifty foot 20 ton boat should have an easier motion and be much faster than a less than one ton 25 foot boat, but if rolled is far more likely to lose her rig or if swept by a sea can easily suffer deck house damage. The smaller boat just goes with the flow.

The problems with a smaller boat revolve more around increased voyage time versus ability to carry supplies, and the general fatigue of bouncing around so much.

Small boats rock
04-07-2019, 11:29 PM
Folkboats are good, no question, owned one myself for some years, but the original post seems to be looking for something a little smaller "20' to 24'". Having said that, my 17.25' Blow Fish to the design of Perigee is about 1.9 tons cruising displacement. Folkboats are 2.4tons (or there abouts). Length is not a great measure of size.

I second Ian's comments on the advantages and disadvantages of small (not to suggest big boats are bad, I love them too).

skaraborgcraft
04-08-2019, 01:08 AM
The displacement on a given length i touched on earlier, a boat with the same weight but a waterline 4ft longer is a big difference in daily runs, and both are still small enough that in crap weather both will still be uncomfortable. Horses for courses though, you might have a real need to have a cut off length, in which case it might be a good idea to make it as burdsome as you can afford.
Just as an example Roger Taylor moved on from his Corribee 21 with a 15ft waterline, to his Achillees 24, which he says gives him an extra voyaging range of 1000 miles over his "usual" 3 month period with that extra 4ft. Could make the difference between being stuck in the Fiji Islands during the cyclone season or safely down in New Zealand.

Small boats rock
04-08-2019, 04:09 AM
I agree about length in terms of the boat as pure sailing machine, more length sails better. I find comfort is better the heavier the boat. I've been sea sick many times on my folkboat and found the motion violent at times. By comparison the vertue, of similar length, but far greater displacement I found to have a docile motion which was quite comfortable and not sickening (not to me anyway, but everyone is different). So for comfort heavy is good, but this may exceed the best displacement for pure sailing performance. It's a balancing act.

skaraborgcraft
04-08-2019, 07:05 AM
^ Totally agree, and some peoples priorities will be different. I found the Rival (plastic) range to be one of those compromise boats that work, not a full long keeled but not a fin either, not extreme in displacement nor lightweight, and the right amount of sail to keep it going. One of those "middle of the road" designs that work well.
Loading up with 40 days worth of stores and water on a small boat can put things into perspective, and hefty little yachts like your "blowfish" can handle that better than some.

wizbang 13
04-08-2019, 07:49 AM
Wee boats are as seaworthy, but cannot continue to move upwind as long as bigger boats. By”long” , I mean in deteriorating conditions. They must have seafood in a gale to remain safe. ( I’m leaving that auto spell mistake cuz it’s effin funny. Of course the word is sea room)

gilberj
04-08-2019, 10:33 AM
Bruce is right in what he said earlier. In the moderately distant past it was pretty normal for small pocket cruisers to take on long voyages. These days the smallest boat I know of in my circle of friends is a Vancouver 27, the rest are high 30's to mid 40's. I think Roger Taylor in Ming Ming and Ming Ming II is perhaps the best source of good current information. It is worth repeating here that though he gets pretty much a thousand more miles in his 40 odd days, it is still an exceptional day he sails more than 100nm..
Sailing is its own reward....Sailing is a pretty stupid way to travel. Ultimately it is cheaper, easier, more comfortable and way more efficient to fly. The Pardey's mantra of "go small but go" or whatever it was is as valid today as ever.

skaraborgcraft
04-08-2019, 01:01 PM
I believe a Hurley 20 has been known to go upwind in a F9 and make progress and a Kingfisher 20 bilge keeler in a F8, but with a lot more leeway. The Hurley has a 55% ballast, not sure of the Kingfisher but i think it was around 40%, not many new production boats of that size carry that kind of ballast.

Etdbob
04-08-2019, 03:18 PM
Someone mentioned the old Seabird. Probably not a bad idea, and it got me thinking about Bolgers Seabird '86

35066

Here's someone that build one, plenty of photos.
Apparently there are junk and pilot house versions too.

http://www.oocities.org/nohnpages/original.html

Perhaps smaller than most boat recommended, but also an easier to handle project.
Just sayin'

gilberj
04-08-2019, 03:42 PM
If I were thinking building a pocket cruiser for long distance sailing might be the way to go......Near the top of my list would be John Welsford's Swaggie, or Sundowner. Several others of the same general family might work as well....Dudley Dix also has a few that I like. I really like Annie, already mentioned. Gartside and Oughthred and Vivier all have candidates. Then there is some of the old guard....Atkin's, Garden, Bolger. So many boats and so little time....
It is a little outside the parameters of the OP but I'd still consider Haiku.

Etdbob
04-08-2019, 04:07 PM
I'd consider a Wharram catamaran myself!

Small boats rock
04-09-2019, 05:52 AM
Wee boats are as seaworthy, but cannot continue to move upwind as long as bigger boats. By”long” , I mean in deteriorating conditions. They must have seafood in a gale to remain safe. ( I’m leaving that auto spell mistake cuz it’s effin funny. Of course the word is sea room)

Agreed. By way of illustration the smallest boat I've cruised in is my paradox, less than 14'... and yes she definitely has her limit at around 20 knots for windward progress, or less if the seas are nasty, which in this neck of the woods is not much wind. However, given time, conditions change and so she has managed to get me 'there' eventually... takes some care and readiness to get into an anchorage when things start to look grim. She doesn't even begin to compare to something like a folkboat even though a folkboat is still very small.

George Ferguson
04-09-2019, 07:52 AM
I agree about length in terms of the boat as pure sailing machine, more length sails better. I find comfort is better the heavier the boat. I've been sea sick many times on my folkboat and found the motion violent at times. By comparison the vertue, of similar length, but far greater displacement I found to have a docile motion which was quite comfortable and not sickening (not to me anyway, but everyone is different). So for comfort heavy is good, but this may exceed the best displacement for pure sailing performance. It's a balancing act.

Do you find the Folkboat to have more or less motion in average conditions?

gilberj
04-09-2019, 10:37 AM
I'd consider a Wharram catamaran myself!
I would not consider a multi-hull for an ocean crossing pocket cruiser. I know there have been several...."Cooking Fat" as an example. Cat's and Tri's are not good at carrying weights. The performance suffers significantly with each pound or kilogram you add. The enclosed accommodation is very limited, and getting out of the weather might be difficult whether you are trying to get some relief from the tropical sun or shelter from a mid/high latitude gale.
I would consider a catamaran in larger sizes say 30+ feet. We can all see how many cruising cats are out there in the 40 to 60 foot range.

gilberj
04-09-2019, 11:00 AM
I think I'd be mainly looking for boat in this size that are noticeably a bit stiffer than is normal. I think this is an important element of seaworthiness, and am willing to accept the more vigorous motion you will occasionally encounter. I have cruised extensively on a couple of sailboats that were a little on the tender side. We made out just fine. The relative tenderness was mostly frustrating when sailing on a stiff day reefed when others were under full sail. We were able to work to windward in 40 knots gusting...offshore wind in a 20 foot boat under storm main and working jib, but I am less sure we could have done that in a large sea. This is the thing. Do you have the power to work into a large sea?
I currently sail a stiff boat. Stiff to the point of being annoying at times ( light or no wind in rough sea). Generally with wind to lean against she is very steady and easy riding. Again I have worked to windward in 40 gusting knots of wind and a rough 2.5 metre sea, with no more stress than if there was 20 knots of wind. The well reefed sails gave ample power to keep the boat moving as fast as I might want. We were able to cook a hot dinner. I have had similar experiences on my Fathers Herreshoff 21 foot Cat Yawl, crossing Georgia Strait close reaching in winds of 25 to 30 knots.
With a smaller boat such as being discussed here, I'd choose a stiffer boat over a more tender boat.
One of the reasons I am less concerned with the motion is that in a small boat you are always very close to the center gyration. On a larger boat, being further from the center there is real danger of injury

Edward Pearson
04-09-2019, 11:29 AM
Atkin Eric built to 36ft. WRC cold molded on Iroko. Beta engine in. Lead ballast in. Deck on. Spars and windlass. Interior done and it floats. I guess the professional builder ran out of lifetime. Built 2011. Just needs refinishing with paint and some sails. Offers on 12k. 12 tons. 6'1" headroom. That's alot of double ended boat if you want a woodie. Just needs someone to love her. In Scotland.

https://d385tlrw8quush.cloudfront.net/1024/768/225367_92ddec2504cbbb9800edd74d0e588553.jpg

https://www.boatshed.com/william_atkin_36_gaff_cutter-boat-225367.html

wizbang 13
04-09-2019, 11:37 AM
I would not consider a multi-hull for an ocean crossing pocket cruiser. I know there have been several...."Cooking Fat" as an example. Cat's and Tri's are not good at carrying weights. The performance suffers significantly with each pound or kilogram you add. The enclosed accommodation is very limited, and getting out of the weather might be difficult whether you are trying to get some relief from the tropical sun or shelter from a mid/high latitude gale.
I would consider a catamaran in larger sizes say 30+ feet. We can all see how many cruising cats are out there in the 40 to 60 foot range.

I invented a new word in a bar in Antigua the other night. Each time I mention it , it gets a laugh.
“Twinebego”.

willin woodworks
04-09-2019, 12:10 PM
Gonna use it Wiz. Ill give you the credit.

Small boats rock
04-10-2019, 03:34 AM
Do you find the Folkboat to have more or less motion in average conditions?

More or less than what?