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View Full Version : Charm vs Humility, a holiday question of ethics.



Joe (SoCal)
12-24-2018, 01:39 PM
So I posted an interesting story in my latest mother-in-law thread about how I charmed my way into a near impossible table at the Mission Inn famed Spanish Courtyard last night. I posted it here as well as on social media. A few responses I've gotten have left me puzzled and questioning myself and actions. So in an attempt to better understand myself and understand how others saw offense in what happened I'm opening up this thread to gain a better insight and as always learn.

A little backstory, from a very young age I knew that I could read situations, emotions, context and characters very quickly and "USE" them to "Charm" my way. In my past I have used this gift of charm to manipulate and indulge whatever my whimsy. It is a very powerful tool and can be seriously harmful if used inappropriately. I have learned to tame it but I always have to be wary of it getting away from me.

Where it has been most effective for me has been in business & sales. Although my guiding principle when I'm charming a customer or vendor or whatever is to above all else be honest in heart and to always be on the side of good.

Where it has been most destructive has been with interpersonal relationships and women. As a young man I could be deadly charming and there was a lot of damage left in my wake. I still have regrets. I've done a lot of amends and have corrected that.

Where I'm still unsure is when it comes to the little charmes the clever little ways I "motivate" my way. As in the restaurant the other night.


OK so this is my Coup de grâce of the eveningThere are about a million people lining up to see the light show at the Mission Inn. There is one very special restaurant, that has an amazing courtyard called the Spanish Patio At Mission Inn Restaurant. You need reservations MONTHS in advance for Tonight during the Festival of Lights. They have Über security at every entrance, the street is closed off, it's an absolute mob scene. People wait on line for hours just to walk past.
I walk up to the front gate, security stops us, I say we have reservations at the restaurant, they wave us through. I go to the hostess and go Foster party of 3 we have reservations for 4:00. They go we open at 5 that's impossible. I say well that's what "they" told us". Just as I'm explaining this an older lady says she had the SAME experience and they don't have her reservation for her and her family and they have a standing reservation every year. She is VERY upset. I remain calm and ask the hostess name. The hostess, Alicia is very upset and blaming the reservation desk saying they always screw up. I play along, and say Alicia, see what you can do for us I would really appreciate it and I get how hard your job is. Renee plays bad cop and is WE HAD RESERVATIONS this is ridiculous. She asks for my cell phone # and will call us if she can get us in. Understand it's an absolute MOB SCENE.
So we go and take a 20 min hansom carriage ride around the block and just as we are getting off I get a text " Mr. Foster, Your Table Is Ready" The most coveted table in the courtyard - WITHOUT RESERVATIONS !


My take on this was: I was the one being exceptionally nice and accommodating. I did stick up for her, even explaining to the irate older woman that it's crazy this time of year and her job must be extremely difficult. Alicia, seemed to appreciate it and was quick to throw the hotel reservation desk under the bus. In the end it seems that because I was nice she "found" us a table, as far as I could see the older irate woman was not so lucky 🤔. I looked around the entire restaurant after we were sat and she and her party were nowhere to be found. It always pays to be nice. FWIW we didn't happen to get the other woman's table because ours was a 4 top and she had a party of 8. Also it seems as though a few people didn't call to cancel their older reservations because there was a couple of other empty tables. In the end we filled in and paid for someone who was rude or forgot to cancel.

This might be an Ish like overly examined belly lint gaze but feel free to contribute.

McMike
12-24-2018, 01:44 PM
I have the opposite problem. I can be trusted to never candy coat anything. The truth is my disease, I speak it readily, often to my detriment.

peb
12-24-2018, 02:15 PM
If you understand it correctly, the problem is has nothing directly to do with your charm, it is that you lied about having a reservation, and you used your charm so that you profited from your lie.

Perhaps I am mistaken about the story, if so, I apologize. If not, it's immoral, plain and simple.

.Eta: merry Christmas Joe, please just accept my post as an answer that you seem to be seeking.

Tom Wilkinson
12-24-2018, 02:24 PM
So who at the reservation desk is currently getting their ass chewed out for screwing you your "reservation"? What if that clerk lost his job from your "little" lie? In some corporate cultures, especially one that is customer centric, things like that can flow downhill pretty quickly.

Rum_Pirate
12-24-2018, 02:27 PM
Joe . . . Merry Christmas.

It is sometimes simpler to lend money to a person. :d

Art Haberland
12-24-2018, 02:31 PM
You do make a good point, Tom. Working in the Casino Industry, even if only doing entertainment, I am well aware of how important pleasing the guests is. While something like that two weeks ago would have resulted in nothing more than an eyeroll from management, on an important night like the Festival of Lights, I am more than willing to bed there is somebody wandering around downtown, jobless, and trying to figure out what they did wrong.

paulf
12-24-2018, 02:31 PM
So I posted an interesting story in my latest mother-in-law thread about how I charmed my way into a near impossible table at the Mission Inn famed Spanish Courtyard last night. I posted it here as well as on social media. A few responses I've gotten have left me puzzled and questioning myself and actions. So in an attempt to better understand myself and understand how others saw offense in what happened I'm opening up this thread to gain a better insight and as always learn.

A little backstory, from a very young age I knew that I could read situations, emotions, context and characters very quickly and "USE" them to "Charm" my way. In my past I have used this gift of charm to manipulate and indulge whatever my whimsy. It is a very powerful tool and can be seriously harmful if used inappropriately. I have learned to tame it but I always have to be wary of it getting away from me.

Where it has been most effective for me has been in business & sales. Although my guiding principle when I'm charming a customer or vendor or whatever is to above all else be honest in heart and to always be on the side of good.

Where it has been most destructive has been with interpersonal relationships and women. As a young man I could be deadly charming and there was a lot of damage left in my wake. I still have regrets. I've done a lot of amends and have corrected that.

Where I'm still unsure is when it comes to the little charmes the clever little ways I "motivate" my way. As in the restaurant the other night.



My take on this was: I was the one being exceptionally nice and accommodating. I did stick up for her, even explaining to the irate older woman that it's crazy this time of year and her job must be extremely difficult. Alicia, seemed to appreciate it and was quick to throw the hotel reservation desk under the bus. In the end it seems that because I was nice she "found" us a table, as far as I could see the older irate woman was not so lucky 樂. I looked around the entire restaurant after we were sat and she and her party were nowhere to be found. It always pays to be nice. FWIW we didn't happen to get the other woman's table because ours was a 4 top and she had a party of 8. Also it seems as though a few people didn't call to cancel their older reservations because there was a couple of other empty tables. In the end we filled in and paid for someone who was rude or forgot to cancel.

This might be an Ish like overly examined belly lint gaze but feel free to contribute.

I've had times when it just felt right to con my way in, someone took a liking to me, I said just the right thing, I'm Irish and could talk a bulldog off a meat truck.

But now I ask my self more and more, would Trump try to pull this off? If the answer is even possibly affirmative, I change course as I'm in dangerous water.

If Lying or insincere bull is involved, it is generally a low road, I've taken it before mind you, but I really do know better, and my grand children actually look up to me, I want to keep it that way.

Garret
12-24-2018, 02:34 PM
If you understand it correctly, the problem is has nothing directly to do with your charm, it is that you lied about having a reservation, and you used your charm so that you profited from your lie.

Perhaps I am mistaken about the story, if so, I apologize. If not, it's immoral, plain and simple.

.Eta: merry Christmas Joe, please just accept my post as an answer that you seem to be seeking.

I too wish you a Merry Christmas Joe, but I think peb nailed it.

George Jung
12-24-2018, 02:38 PM
Yeah, you might’ve crossed the line a bit on this one. I think you know that, by the tone of your OP. AFA fallout for the employee- it all depends on who they answer to. A smart supe would recognize a teachable moment, and in the spirit of the season, show compassion. Of course, you owe someone Godiva chocolates-‘nothing says you’re sorry like Godiva’

Ian McColgin
12-24-2018, 02:41 PM
peb is at least partially right. The ethical component is the lie was told to get heard.

The charm component has two parts. The first is that it worked. The woman with a party of eight, who may well have simply piggy-backed Joe's story but without the charm and with a harder to satisfy party anyway, seems to have lacked charm.

But the charm also intersects with the ethics in that in addition to destressing things, Joe's charm involved making sure that no one suffered by his deception. In fact, since the restaurant fit them in with no problem, it was profit all around.

There are many little "social lies" or "white lies" that are generally excused as they make human intercourse go more smoothly.

Dad was still a copilot when the captain mentioned that he had two tickets to see Handel's "Messiah" that night and whoever was to go with him could not make it. So Dad went along. Sir Thomas Beecham conducting. After the performance the Captain said he wanted to meed Beecham. Dad thought that was a bit over the top but went along and, after a little whispering between the Captain and someone important, they were ushered in for a brief meet with the exhausted conductor, who treated them like royalty.

As they went back to the hotel Dad asked how it had happened. The Captain said that he'd delivered a little note that they had flown in from New York for the show and were flying back the next day and just wanted a few moments to offer thanks for such an experience, well worth the effort to get over to see it. And before Dad could raise ethical objections, the Captain pointed out that it was true about flying in; the Captain had bid the trip with this performance in mind; bought tickets well in advance; all that. No need to trouble Beecham with the minor fact that they were paid to do the flying . . .

Rum_Pirate
12-24-2018, 02:42 PM
Yeah, you might’ve crossed the line a bit on this one. I think you know that, by the tone of your OP. AFA fallout for the employee- it all depends on who they answer to. A smart supe would recognize a teachable moment, and in the spirit of the season, show compassion. Of course, you owe someone Godiva chocolates-‘nothing says you’re sorry like Godiva’

I find myself in agreement with Mr Jung.



Is this a sign of things to come?

David G
12-24-2018, 02:52 PM
I have similar skills. And it tickles me to use them. Too much, I decided.

After a while, I concluded that I wasn't comfortable with conning folks in most instances. I've still done it if I think I'm on the wrong end of a lie, or some egregiously bad customer service, for instance. But mostly no.

I wouldn't be comfortable doing what you did. What does your sweetie say?

SKIP KILPATRICK
12-24-2018, 03:21 PM
"My take on this was:I was the one being exceptionally nice and accommodating."


Joe,

Love you mean it but.....

If you truly believe that, then I don't think anyone can show you the error of your ways!

Skip

P.S. Merry Christmas to you and yours!

McMike
12-24-2018, 03:30 PM
These guys are right Joe but don't think that makes you wrong. The only thing that gets you anywhere in this world is Charm, yes, lies... I've spent way too long being mister nice guy and get taken advantage for it constantly. My flaw is; even when I know I'm being "handled" I let it go . . . not for fear of conflict because I'm afraid of the fight, but fear that the powers that be will win anyway, because they almost always do. Money makes right. Looks make right. Honor, respect, kindness . . . those qualities will make someone love you but won't get you paid. So, if you're good at it and you have the looks, and you have some money, use it to get what you want. It might be the only way to get what you want.

Tom Wilkinson
12-24-2018, 03:46 PM
peb is at least partially right. The ethical component is the lie was told to get heard.

The charm component has two parts. The first is that it worked. The woman with a party of eight, who may well have simply piggy-backed Joe's story but without the charm and with a harder to satisfy party anyway, seems to have lacked charm.

But the charm also intersects with the ethics in that in addition to destressing things, Joe's charm involved making sure that no one suffered by his deception. In fact, since the restaurant fit them in with no problem, it was profit all around.

There are many little "social lies" or "white lies" that are generally excused as they make human intercourse go more smoothly.

Dad was still a copilot when the captain mentioned that he had two tickets to see Handel's "Messiah" that night and whoever was to go with him could not make it. So Dad went along. Sir Thomas Beecham conducting. After the performance the Captain said he wanted to meed Beecham. Dad thought that was a bit over the top but went along and, after a little whispering between the Captain and someone important, they were ushered in for a brief meet with the exhausted conductor, who treated them like royalty.

As they went back to the hotel Dad asked how it had happened. The Captain said that he'd delivered a little note that they had flown in from New York for the show and were flying back the next day and just wanted a few moments to offer thanks for such an experience, well worth the effort to get over to see it. And before Dad could raise ethical objections, the Captain pointed out that it was true about flying in; the Captain had bid the trip with this performance in mind; bought tickets well in advance; all that. No need to trouble Beecham with the minor fact that they were paid to do the flying . . .

Except we have no idea what was said to the reservation desk. What if the other woman was pulling the same scam? Now two customers have complaints against a reservation desk that did nothing wrong.

As far a Georges "teachable moment". How is there a teachable moment for a guy that did nothing wrong but someone else's lie makes it looks like he did?

I'm playing devils advocate here but Joe was only being nice to the hostess, not to the reservation desk that he threw under the bus.

paulf
12-24-2018, 04:05 PM
Except we have no idea what was said to the reservation desk. What if the other woman was pulling the same scam? Now two customers have complaints against a reservation desk that did nothing wrong.

As far a Georges "teachable moment". How is there a teachable moment for a guy that did nothing wrong but someone else's lie makes it looks like he did?

I'm playing devils advocate here but Joe was only being nice to the hostess, not to the reservation desk that he threw under the bus.

I f I'm the manager of this place I have two things on my side.


1 I most likely know the reservations desk persons work history, this person is usually very competent, so during this high requested time this anomaly was most likely a customer schmoozing in. (enter Joe and the other person)

2 The desk gets a cancellation... Give it to the nice schmoozer or the witch who tried to bully her way in? They both were B.S ing but honey catches more flies than Vinegar.
I'll give the seat to the fun schmoozer, But I wish he slipped me $50.00 The witch can go pack sand.

I'm sure a place this popular has seen all this before.

Paul Girouard
12-24-2018, 04:06 PM
These guys are right Joe but don't think that makes you wrong. The only thing that gets you anywhere in this world is Charm, yes, lies... I've spent way too long being mister nice guy and get taken advantage for it constantly. My flaw is; even when I know I'm being "handled" I let it go . . . not for fear of conflict because I'm afraid of the fight, but fear that the powers that be will win anyway, because they almost always do. Money makes right. Looks make right. Honor, respect, kindness . . . those qualities will make someone love you but won't get you paid. So, if you're good at it and you have the looks, and you have some money, use it to get what you want. It might be the only way to get what you want.

Isn’t this what’s wrong with Trump?

McMike
12-24-2018, 04:18 PM
Isn’t this what’s wrong with Trump?

Yes . . and you're cool with that.

Phil Y
12-24-2018, 04:24 PM
I suggest more introspection

Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

JayInOz
12-24-2018, 04:27 PM
If I have to lie to get in, then I'll stay out. When I sell an old car I tell folks everything I know that's wrong with it. Probably why I'm retirement age and still have holes in my jeans. But I sleep better at night. JayInOz

oznabrag
12-24-2018, 04:33 PM
If I have to lie to get in, then I'll stay out. When I sell an old car I tell folks everything I know that's wrong with it. Probably why I'm retiremant age and still have holes in my jeans. But I sleep better at night. JayInOz

Yup.

Ian McColgin
12-24-2018, 04:43 PM
Trump's a bully, not a charmer.

PeterSibley
12-24-2018, 05:08 PM
If I have to lie to get in, then I'll stay out. When I sell an old car I tell folks everything I know that's wrong with it. Probably why I'm retiremant age and still have holes in my jeans. But I sleep better at night. JayInOz

Agreed, lies are a corrosive habit to get into.

George Jung
12-24-2018, 05:26 PM
I think Paul (and Ian) nailed it.

PeterSibley
12-24-2018, 05:31 PM
If I have to lie to get in, then I'll stay out. When I sell an old car I tell folks everything I know that's wrong with it. Probably why I'm retiremant age and still have holes in my jeans. But I sleep better at night. JayInOz

Agreed, lies are a corrosive habit to get into.A man I knew well lied to his wife and family for years to cover previous deceptions, he became quite untrustworthy as time progresssed.

beernd
12-24-2018, 05:50 PM
So I posted an interesting story in my latest mother-in-law thread about how I charmed my way into a near impossible table at the Mission Inn famed Spanish Courtyard last night. I posted it here as well as on social media. A few responses I've gotten have left me puzzled and questioning myself and actions. So in an attempt to better understand myself and understand how others saw offense in what happened I'm opening up this thread to gain a better insight and as always learn.

A little backstory, from a very young age I knew that I could read situations, emotions, context and characters very quickly and "USE" them to "Charm" my way. In my past I have used this gift of charm to manipulate and indulge whatever my whimsy. It is a very powerful tool and can be seriously harmful if used inappropriately. I have learned to tame it but I always have to be wary of it getting away from me.

Where it has been most effective for me has been in business & sales. Although my guiding principle when I'm charming a customer or vendor or whatever is to above all else be honest in heart and to always be on the side of good.

Where it has been most destructive has been with interpersonal relationships and women. As a young man I could be deadly charming and there was a lot of damage left in my wake. I still have regrets. I've done a lot of amends and have corrected that.

Where I'm still unsure is when it comes to the little charmes the clever little ways I "motivate" my way. As in the restaurant the other night.



My take on this was: I was the one being exceptionally nice and accommodating. I did stick up for her, even explaining to the irate older woman that it's crazy this time of year and her job must be extremely difficult. Alicia, seemed to appreciate it and was quick to throw the hotel reservation desk under the bus. In the end it seems that because I was nice she "found" us a table, as far as I could see the older irate woman was not so lucky 樂. I looked around the entire restaurant after we were sat and she and her party were nowhere to be found. It always pays to be nice. FWIW we didn't happen to get the other woman's table because ours was a 4 top and she had a party of 8. Also it seems as though a few people didn't call to cancel their older reservations because there was a couple of other empty tables. In the end we filled in and paid for someone who was rude or forgot to cancel.

This might be an Ish like overly examined belly lint gaze but feel free to contribute.

What if the old lady did have a standing reservation and you conned her out of that?
You still feeling proud?

George Jung
12-24-2018, 05:59 PM
Eh? I must need more caffeine....

Oysterhouse
12-24-2018, 06:01 PM
If one of your customers had done something like that to get service from one of your employees, how would you feel about it?

You straight up fabricated a lie. And then manipulated people to get your way.

It's understandable human behavior.

It's also very ugly, and destructive human behavior.

SKIP KILPATRICK
12-24-2018, 06:05 PM
Oyster,

Best stayed yet!

Breakaway
12-24-2018, 06:08 PM
Sorry, Joe. It was a lie-based, "victory," that likely had, and/or will have, a negative effect on others. I'd render this same opinion to my blood and flesh friends.

Kevin



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

David W Pratt
12-24-2018, 06:19 PM
As the saying goes: With great power comes great responsibility

Joe (SoCal)
12-24-2018, 06:24 PM
What if the old lady did have a standing reservation and you conned her out of that?
You still feeling proud?

A little reading comprehension goes a long way to answering this question.


FWIW we didn't happen to get the other woman's table because ours was a 4 top and she had a party of 8.

As far as the older woman pulling the same "Charm" I almost guarantee she was genuine in her assumption she had a reservation. One thing about being a skilled charmer you can spot another one, if she was she was horrible ;)

I actually attempted to give Alicia a nice tip for her hospitality, she declined. I called after posting this to leave a thank you and a compliment for Alicia, and to make sure she wasn't let go, turns out she actually is the general manager, which is probably why she refused the tip I offered. So I doubt she's looking for a new job. ;)

That said I think Peb nailed it and when I posted this I was hoping he was going to respond. Peb is the most genuine ethical person on this forum. Although like most things there is nuances, but in Peb's light they can be interpreted as justifications. If looked at through the gift of eloquence eyes one could make the argument that they had some early cancellations or no shows and better to give the nice guy a table and make the restaurant some money and the waitstaff received a 25% tip. My wife and mother-in-law had an amazing experience.

In the end I think it's good to keep mindful of these charming abilities, and thank you for pointing out other ideas that I wasn't looking at.

SKIP KILPATRICK
12-24-2018, 06:29 PM
Bless your heart!

see post 13

Ted Hoppe
12-24-2018, 06:30 PM
If one of your customers had done something like that to get service from one of your employees, how would you feel about it?

You straight up fabricated a lie. And then manipulated people to get your way.

It's understandable human behavior.

It's also very ugly, and destructive human behavior.

That reminds me of Star Wars and Jedi mind tricks.


https://youtu.be/gALR3SnDEWw

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_trick?file=Qui-Gon_mind_trick.png

Joe (SoCal)
12-24-2018, 06:30 PM
If one of your customers had done something like that to get service from one of your employees, how would you feel about it?

You straight up fabricated a lie. And then manipulated people to get your way.

It's understandable human behavior.

It's also very ugly, and destructive human behavior.

The beautiful thing about understanding human nature and being a excellent charmer I can spot one a mile away and it's VERY hard to pull it on me. I just bought an expensive shirt because the salesman was a level above me in the charm factor and I even told him that's the reason I was buying from him.

beernd
12-24-2018, 06:31 PM
As far as the older woman pulling the same "Charm" I almost guarantee she was genuine in her assumption she had a reservation. One thing about being a skilled charmer you can spot another one, if she was she was horrible ;)

What if she wasn't a charmer but genuinly upset by being conned out of her reservation.?
That was my question.
I think you are to full of yourself, and my reading comprehension is just fine.

Bobby of Tulsa
12-24-2018, 06:34 PM
You sir are a jerk,no other word to describe you. You live off the talents of others and brag about it on a boat forum.

McMike
12-24-2018, 06:35 PM
If one of your customers had done something like that to get service from one of your employees, how would you feel about it?

You straight up fabricated a lie. And then manipulated people to get your way.

It's understandable human behavior.

It's also very ugly, and destructive human behavior.

It's not how I want the world to be, It's not what I would want a friend to act like, but it's how the world works. Dale Carnegie wrote an entire book about it. It's entire focus is the manipulation of how people simply want to be liked. I had a boss, who noticed my personality getting in the way, buy me Dale's book. I was disgusted and I was enlightened. Disgusted by and enlightened to the nature of "successful" people.

McMike
12-24-2018, 06:38 PM
You sir are a jerk,no other word to describe you. You live off the talents of others and brag about it on a boat forum.

Isn't that the description of middle management, all the way up to CEO? It's how the world works.

Yeadon
12-24-2018, 06:40 PM
You sir are a jerk,no other word to describe you. You live off the talents of others and brag about it on a boat forum.

That’s a little harsh.

CK 17
12-24-2018, 06:40 PM
i’ve Spent a few Christmas’s at the mission inn. I got in the old fashion way.

oznabrag
12-24-2018, 06:51 PM
Trump's a bully, not a charmer.

Does that make him less ethical?

Bobby of Tulsa
12-24-2018, 07:00 PM
That’s a little harsh. Really???

Canoeyawl
12-24-2018, 07:02 PM
Just checking in to see if anyone has been complaining of a cold or something.

Restaurants can also be quite charming to a "pain customer" just sayin' ;)

Merry Christmas

B_B
12-24-2018, 07:16 PM
If you understand it correctly, the problem is has nothing directly to do with your charm, it is that you lied about having a reservation, and you used your charm so that you profited from your lie...

This is it.

And the thread title is misleading. The story has nothing to do with charm vs. humility. Telling reception you had a reservation implied she owed you something, she owed you a table.

Charm, pure charm, would be going to reception, telling the truth, being kind and gracious, and getting what you want.

Lying to get what you want is neither charming nor a display of humility.

SKIP KILPATRICK
12-24-2018, 07:18 PM
i’ve Spent a few Christmas’s at the mission inn. I got in the old fashion way.

This I respect!

SKIP KILPATRICK
12-24-2018, 07:25 PM
What is the English expression: Aunt Sally

Oysterhouse
12-24-2018, 07:27 PM
This---

"Charm, pure charm, would be going to reception, telling the truth, being kind and gracious, and getting what you want.

Lying to get what you want is neither charming nor a display of humility"

Amen Brother!

Decourcy
12-24-2018, 09:20 PM
You should feel shame about your behaviour, but you won't.

I wonder if the responses here are what you expected, or if you expected praise for your "ingenuity".

BrianY
12-24-2018, 10:09 PM
Oh yes! On the eve of Christmas when we should be focusing on the welfare of others and the well-being of our fellow humans, let us praise and celebrate the ability to lie and manipulate others to your personal gain and satisfaction! :rolleyes:

There is no virtue in manipulating others for your own gain. It might be a useful ability, but it certainly isn't moral or ethical and it certainly doesn't help to make the world any better or fairer. Taking pride in your ability is not admirable and it doesn't reflect well on your character.

So Merry Christmas. I hope that you get everything you want.

George Jung
12-24-2018, 10:22 PM
Frankly, I’m surprised at how nasty and vindictive many of the responses have been. My read- joe recognized the transgression; maybe he wasn’t as contrite as some might wish. But I’m disappointed how nasty more than a few of you have been. Imaginary or not- this isn’t how you treat friends.

johnw
12-24-2018, 10:28 PM
You should feel shame about your behaviour, but you won't.

I wonder if the responses here are what you expected, or if you expected praise for your "ingenuity".

I gather that's what he expected when he posted on social media. This thread appears to be about swinging his moral compass so that he can make up a deviation card reflecting his level of error. In the comic books, it's never hard to tell whether you're using your power for good or evil (unless Alan Moore is writing your character.) In real life, things are more complicated, and few people are willing to examine whether their actions are justifiable.

And on that topic, peb nailed at.

Joe (SoCal)
12-24-2018, 10:41 PM
I gather that's what he expected when he posted on social media. This thread appears to be about swinging his moral compass so that he can make up a deviation card reflecting his level of error. In the comic books, it's never hard to tell whether you're using your power for good or evil (unless Alan Moore is writing your character.) In real life, things are more complicated, and few people are willing to examine whether their actions are justifiable.

And on that topic, peb nailed at.

Peb is my moral compass and I appreciate it. He accomplishes it with dignity, compassion and understanding. The other responses reveal more of the poster than their moral convictions or superiority.

As for me I'm of the venial sin for this infraction, less harm than foul. I know my limits and to be honest I'm OK with the results and outcome.
I do find it fascinating the amount of disgust piled upon this. It's kinda hard to discern between disgust for the man or the act, my odds say 90% man and 18% act and 2% not really comprehending what happened.

phiil
12-24-2018, 10:44 PM
Trump's a bully, not a charmer.
The difference betwixt the two can be quite thin, I think.

Joe (SoCal)
12-24-2018, 10:44 PM
Frankly, I’m surprised at how nasty and vindictive many of the responses have been. My read- joe recognized the transgression; maybe he wasn’t as contrite as some might wish. But I’m disappointed how nasty more than a few of you have been. Imaginary or not- this isn’t how you treat friends.

George, I agree, yet I knew I would gather this level of response. I usually avoid posting these threads because there are sooooo many waiting in the wings just waiting to poke jabs, I know it.

Those I respect gave me the insight I needed the rest who cares ;)

Joe (SoCal)
12-24-2018, 10:46 PM
The difference betwixt the two can be quite thin, I think.

Thin as the distance between Stalin (Bully) & Gandhi (Charmer)

PeterSibley
12-24-2018, 10:51 PM
George, I agree, yet I knew I would gather this level of response. I usually avoid posting these threads because there are sooooo many waiting in the wings just waiting to poke jabs, I know it.

Those I respect gave me the insight I needed the rest who cares ;)

There has been a LOT of good advice and analysis. Joe is lucky people care enough to offer such. He asked .

George Jung
12-24-2018, 11:00 PM
Sure. But there’s advice, and then there’s a 2 X 4 across the noggin, followed by advice. Which method you prefer/find more effective?

Joe (SoCal)
12-24-2018, 11:00 PM
There has been a LOT of good advice and analysis. Joe is lucky people care enough to offer such. He asked .

Agreed and then there are those .......... ;)

peb
12-24-2018, 11:17 PM
Peb is my moral compass and I appreciate it. He accomplishes it with dignity, compassion and understanding. The other responses reveal more of the poster than their moral convictions or superiority.

As for me I'm of the venial sin for this infraction, less harm than foul. I know my limits and to be honest I'm OK with the results and outcome.
I do find it fascinating the amount of disgust piled upon this. It's kinda hard to discern between disgust for the man or the act, my odds say 90% man and 18% act and 2% not really comprehending what happened.Joe, find a better moral compass, please. I agree with you about other responses on this thread, I did not see the other thread. You posted a thread asking for honest feedback on your actions, quite refreshing in my mind. We should all be will bbe willing to look to others for a little fraternal correction now and then. Few of us are. You deserve none of the rude remarks.

paulf
12-24-2018, 11:24 PM
Peb is my moral compass and I appreciate it. He accomplishes it with dignity, compassion and understanding. The other responses reveal more of the poster than their moral convictions or superiority.

As for me I'm of the venial sin for this infraction, less harm than foul. I know my limits and to be honest I'm OK with the results and outcome.
I do find it fascinating the amount of disgust piled upon this. It's kinda hard to discern between disgust for the man or the act, my odds say 90% man and 18% act and 2% not really comprehending what happened.


Come on Joe, I responded with a recognition of my own doings and short comings, no condemnation of yours. Lighten up. You asked our opinion we gave it.

From one "sorta" charmer to another.

Charm will only get you so far, when times are really tough, true strength and skill still prevails. We aint there yet.

peb
12-24-2018, 11:30 PM
Joe, I'd recommend TomF as a much better choice, even if he is a heretic (that's a joke TomF)

Decourcy
12-24-2018, 11:34 PM
Simple question Joe.
Do you think, now, that your behaviour was less than should be expected? If you were faced with the same opportunity to gain through deceit tomorrow, would you do so?

Joe (SoCal)
12-25-2018, 12:08 AM
Simple question Joe.
Do you think, now, that your behaviour was less than should be expected? If you were faced with the same opportunity to gain through deceit tomorrow, would you do so?


Yop 100% :D The only difference is who I would invite from this forum to join us ;)

BrianY
12-25-2018, 12:35 AM
It's kinda hard to discern between disgust for the man or the act, my odds say 90% man and 18% act and 2% not really comprehending what happened.

Is there a difference between who and what a man is and the actions he takes?

Jimmy W
12-25-2018, 12:40 AM
This is it.

And the thread title is misleading. The story has nothing to do with charm vs. humility. Telling reception you had a reservation implied she owed you something, she owed you a table.

Charm, pure charm, would be going to reception, telling the truth, being kind and gracious, and getting what you want.

Lying to get what you want is neither charming nor a display of humility.

This I agree with.

Decourcy
12-25-2018, 12:51 AM
Yop 100% :D The only difference is who I would invite from this forum to join us ;)

That is truely sad.

If I lived anywhere near you, I would neither hire, nor recommend you. Dishonesty tends to be a chronic and broad condition, especially when rejoiced in to the degree you display. I could never trust anyone that has so damaged a moral compass.

Joe (SoCal)
12-25-2018, 12:54 AM
28603

Dosen’t seem sad :D
Merry Christmas

Yeadon
12-25-2018, 02:15 AM
This is it.

And the thread title is misleading. The story has nothing to do with charm vs. humility. Telling reception you had a reservation implied she owed you something, she owed you a table.

Charm, pure charm, would be going to reception, telling the truth, being kind and gracious, and getting what you want.

Lying to get what you want is neither charming nor a display of humility.

Nailed it.

PeterSibley
12-25-2018, 03:46 AM
Agreed and then there are those .......... ;)

Who said things you didn't want to hear but should probably consider seriously anyway.

McMike
12-25-2018, 08:53 AM
I like you Joe, for a lot of real reasons. I would never trust you to reflect who I am in business or personally but I'd certainly buy you a beer and enjoy your company. Merry xmas to you and yours.

Paul Pless
12-25-2018, 08:58 AM
OK so this is my Coup de grâce of the eveningThere are about a million people lining up to see the light show at the Mission Inn. There is one very special restaurant, that has an amazing courtyard called the Spanish Patio At Mission Inn Restaurant. You need reservations MONTHS in advance for Tonight during the Festival of Lights. They have Über security at every entrance, the street is closed off, it's an absolute mob scene. People wait on line for hours just to walk past.I walk up to the front gate, security stops us, I say we have reservations at the restaurant, they wave us through. I go to the hostess and go Foster party of 3 we have reservations for 4:00. They go we open at 5 that's impossible. I say well that's what "they" told us". Just as I'm explaining this an older lady says she had the SAME experience and they don't have her reservation for her and her family and they have a standing reservation every year. She is VERY upset. I remain calm and ask the hostess name. The hostess, Alicia is very upset and blaming the reservation desk saying they always screw up. I play along, and say Alicia, see what you can do for us I would really appreciate it and I get how hard your job is. Renee plays bad cop and is WE HAD RESERVATIONS this is ridiculous. She asks for my cell phone # and will call us if she can get us in. Understand it's an absolute MOB SCENE.
So we go and take a 20 min hansom carriage ride around the block and just as we are getting off I get a text " Mr. Foster, Your Table Is Ready" The most coveted table in the courtyard - WITHOUT RESERVATIONS !

sounds like something a republican would do

Norman Bernstein
12-25-2018, 09:47 AM
sounds like something a republican would do

Ouch.. you REALLY know how to hurt a guy :)

amish rob
12-25-2018, 09:58 AM
sounds like something a republican would do

Haha. NOW he’s Joe SoCal! Hahahaha.

Peace,
Happy Christmas

Clarkey
12-25-2018, 10:08 AM
This thread seems to be attributing a meaning to the word 'charm' that I was not previously aware of.

John Smith
12-25-2018, 10:10 AM
So I posted an interesting story in my latest mother-in-law thread about how I charmed my way into a near impossible table at the Mission Inn famed Spanish Courtyard last night. I posted it here as well as on social media. A few responses I've gotten have left me puzzled and questioning myself and actions. So in an attempt to better understand myself and understand how others saw offense in what happened I'm opening up this thread to gain a better insight and as always learn.

A little backstory, from a very young age I knew that I could read situations, emotions, context and characters very quickly and "USE" them to "Charm" my way. In my past I have used this gift of charm to manipulate and indulge whatever my whimsy. It is a very powerful tool and can be seriously harmful if used inappropriately. I have learned to tame it but I always have to be wary of it getting away from me.

Where it has been most effective for me has been in business & sales. Although my guiding principle when I'm charming a customer or vendor or whatever is to above all else be honest in heart and to always be on the side of good.

Where it has been most destructive has been with interpersonal relationships and women. As a young man I could be deadly charming and there was a lot of damage left in my wake. I still have regrets. I've done a lot of amends and have corrected that.

Where I'm still unsure is when it comes to the little charmes the clever little ways I "motivate" my way. As in the restaurant the other night.



My take on this was: I was the one being exceptionally nice and accommodating. I did stick up for her, even explaining to the irate older woman that it's crazy this time of year and her job must be extremely difficult. Alicia, seemed to appreciate it and was quick to throw the hotel reservation desk under the bus. In the end it seems that because I was nice she "found" us a table, as far as I could see the older irate woman was not so lucky 🤔. I looked around the entire restaurant after we were sat and she and her party were nowhere to be found. It always pays to be nice. FWIW we didn't happen to get the other woman's table because ours was a 4 top and she had a party of 8. Also it seems as though a few people didn't call to cancel their older reservations because there was a couple of other empty tables. In the end we filled in and paid for someone who was rude or forgot to cancel.

This might be an Ish like overly examined belly lint gaze but feel free to contribute.

Seems a longer version of how one catches more flies with honey.....

McMike
12-25-2018, 10:16 AM
Seems a longer version of how one catches more flies with honey.....

Let's be honest, it was honey covered bullsh17.

CK 17
12-25-2018, 10:30 AM
Let's be honest, it was honey covered bullsh17.
++1

Ed Harrow
12-25-2018, 12:15 PM
++1

I'm reminded of a time with family and friend of daughter. We were at the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. Wanted dinner. All were hungry. Line at the door. Place was full. I explained situation to the 'door man'. Slipped him something to make it worth his while, and told him we'd be sitting on a bench out front, should a table become available. We sat. One did. Right up front by the windows. Glorious.

Was that Republican, Democrat, Socialist, or Communist?

;)

PS: Merry Christmas! Hopefully not a post against the Christmas truce.

Joe (SoCal)
12-25-2018, 12:16 PM
The Irish call honey covered bull**** - "The Gift of Eloquence" :D

Merry Christmas Everyone.

This has been a way more interesting thread than I expected to be. I honestly thought it was going to be an Ish belly lint gazing flop. I don't know if it's the way I wrote it or emotions around my WBF character that brought some out of the woodwoodwork :D . In the end, I knew I was bull****ting and I was more surprised it WORKED, but I do get the moral implications of "Lying" to get your way. Do I think this particular event was a soul destroying elevator trip to hell and damnation or worse a republican :rolleyes:, nah, it was a nice dinner with my wife and mother-in-law. I don't think I need a Papal Dispensation, I might bring it up next time I go to confession. :p

CWSmith
12-25-2018, 12:19 PM
Charm and humility are both more than fine.

My interest lies in motivation and values. The best of motivations and the most generous of values can both be expressed with charm and humility.

As for getting a good table at a restaurant, anything short of a gun is acceptable!

Paul Pless
12-25-2018, 12:26 PM
that brought some out of the woodwoodwork :D has erster showed up yet? nodd??

John of Phoenix
12-25-2018, 12:49 PM
I have some cocktail napkins that have a picture of a smiling winsome young woman with the caption, "She had not yet decided whether to use her charms for good or evil."

I'm sure you have used yours on other occasions. Right?

epoxyboy
12-25-2018, 05:07 PM
The real question for Joe, is at what scale of consequence/benefit/harm would he decide that the lie was too bigly awful? He's ok with this, and I'd put money on it that 90% of the people in the queue wished they had the cojones to try the same thing. Personally I wouldn't try, but then I'd have my chit together enough to make a reservation, if it was that important to me.

Pete

JayInOz
12-25-2018, 05:30 PM
A little lie can be funny. Like the reporters who lied and pretended to be members of the royal family to get info on the condition of the Duchess of Cambridge. The nurse they lied to- Jacintha Saldanha- was so humiliated that she took her own life three days later. All lies have consequences- even if it's only to make you a liar. Joe you could have cost someone their job- or you could have just looked like a dirt bag in the eyes of your mother in law. Laughing off the responses here as just proof of your incredible ability to "read" people doesn't cut it either. Don't tell lies- you can't get caught. That means avoiding getting into situations where you need to lie. I've had my nose broken three times- telling the truth isn't always easy:) JayInOz

McMike
12-25-2018, 06:00 PM
A little lie can be funny. Like the reporters who lied and pretended to be members of the royal family to get info on the condition of the Duchess of Cambridge. The nurse they lied to- Jacintha Saldanha- was so humiliated that she took her own life three days later. All lies have consequences- even if it's only to make you a liar. Joe you could have cost someone their job- or you could have just looked like a dirt bag in the eyes of your mother in law. Laughing off the responses here as just proof of your incredible ability to "read" people doesn't cut it either. Don't tell lies- you can't get caught. That means avoiding getting into situations where you need to lie. I've had my nose broken three times- telling the truth isn't always easy:) JayInOz

I'm gonna have to go with this tough love 100%. I don't have many true friends because I detest a liar. I hate being forced to do the white lies at work or to be cordial in mixed company. I hate that I'm the odd man out because I don't lie as a rule. There is no worse betrayal than being lied to by a friend, or having to back up a lie for a friend. I also wondered if Joe's MIL might have just gone with it as to not be a stick-in-the-mud, I probably would have if I were in her place, though would have cringed the entire time.

In the end, we live in a culture where what Joe did is heroic and my way is dorky, not manly, uncool. I disagree with it but it is the world I exist in.

Joe, One lie isn't a mortal sin, but like some here are trying to say; someone is bound to get hurt one time or another and if You're responsible for even one person getting fired, and you knew it was a possibility, that's called evil. Honestly, if you didn't know before, you know now the possible result of your lie. Stop, just stop.

Too Little Time
12-25-2018, 06:40 PM
I too wish you a Merry Christmas Joe, but I think peb nailed it.
Stopped reading about here.

I agree with peb.

Joe (SoCal)
12-25-2018, 07:14 PM
A little lie can be funny. Like the reporters who lied and pretended to be members of the royal family to get info on the condition of the Duchess of Cambridge. The nurse they lied to- Jacintha Saldanha- was so humiliated that she took her own life three days later. All lies have consequences- even if it's only to make you a liar. Joe you could have cost someone their job- or you could have just looked like a dirt bag in the eyes of your mother in law. Laughing off the responses here as just proof of your incredible ability to "read" people doesn't cut it either. Don't tell lies- you can't get caught. That means avoiding getting into situations where you need to lie. I've had my nose broken three times- telling the truth isn't always easy:) JayInOz

It's increasingly fascinating to me the level some of you are going with this. First of all there was absolutely no adverse consequences whatsoever. Second it was a simple WTH let's give it a try we've got nothing to lose. My mother-in-law & wife were in on the attempt. Neither were squeamish about it. The worst thing that could have happened is we would have eaten someplace else.

As far as a making prior reservations, the entire MIL trip was a last minute idea Renee and I had and bought her a ticket, after we heard she was going to spend Christmas alone. So this whole thing was a completely last minute idea on our way home from Big Bear. Maybe some of you have a weird impression how this all went down but both my mother-in-law & wife were there and were completely impressed.

Lastly, I don't do sh!t like this often at all. I'm probably more brutally honest than most of you. I haven't had my nose broken mostly because I can be brutally honest while still being deadly charming, it's an even rarer skill set :D. That and I know how to avoid a punch and have and equally deadly left jab and a right hook. :D

sarnella
12-25-2018, 07:26 PM
It is all about you Jo!

Joe (SoCal)
12-25-2018, 07:31 PM
It is all about you Jo!

When you start a thread, about something YOU did, then it will be all about sarnella, but you might have to post more than 53 times :D

Paul see what I mean about coming out of the woodwork :D :D :D

Paul Pless
12-25-2018, 07:34 PM
black coffee drinker joe?

Joe (SoCal)
12-25-2018, 07:40 PM
black coffee drinker joe?

Nope - Coffee Regular ( 1/2 & 1/2 and sugar ) :D

Paul Pless
12-25-2018, 07:41 PM
So not a psychopath, cool.

TomF
12-25-2018, 07:46 PM
Joe, I wouldn't have done it - but IMO it is,such small potatoes. Merry Christmas, to you and yours. And plan a trip this direction sometime, eh?

T

sarnella
12-25-2018, 08:35 PM
A guy has to start somewhere - 54 and counting.

Ian McColgin
12-25-2018, 09:38 PM
With so many of our Forum's Republicans supporting a man who so publicly violates every commandment he can read, it astonishes me how much invective is heaped upon what was at most a venial sin in support of a filial duty.

George Jung
12-25-2018, 09:57 PM
Hehe- yup! I’m thinking joe is doing some sort of ‘study’ of the bilge denizens- hope there’s graphs!

epoxyboy
12-25-2018, 10:00 PM
With so many of our Forum's Republicans supporting a man who so publicly violates every commandment he can read, it astonishes me how much invective is heaped upon what was at most a venial sin in support of a filial duty.

Maybe that's because everyone has experienced waiting in a queue, only to have someone........

Pete

Stiletto
12-25-2018, 11:30 PM
But now I ask my self more and more, would Trump try to pull this off? If the answer is even possibly affirmative, I change course as I'm in dangerous water.

If Lying or insincere bull is involved, it is generally a low road

Great answer!

Stiletto
12-25-2018, 11:47 PM
My contention is that you have misread the situation. You claim that it was charm that got you that table, and the other woman didnt get one because she was strident.
As others have stated you got the table because you lied, not because you were more charming than your immediate competitor for an unreserved table. Why cant you see that?

In the grand scheme of things it is a relatively unimportant event, but possibly a strong indicator of the type of person you really are.
All is not lost however, the fact that you posted about this shows that the inner you sensed there was something wrong, frrom now on give that better part of the inner you the upper hand, say seven Hail Marys, and fit a performance kit to the scooter and all will be forgiven!

Paul Girouard
12-25-2018, 11:53 PM
With so many of our Forum's Republicans supporting a man who so publicly violates every commandment he can read, it astonishes me how much invective is heaped upon what was at most a venial sin in support of a filial duty.

I think Joe got his Arse handed to him more by bilge liberals than “Republicans”.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-26-2018, 12:10 AM
Joe,

As you said, there appears no harm to others on this one. That said, the whole reason you posed this question is that in the back of your mind, there was an inkling of something being wrong, and asking about that was a good instinct, it's called conscience. And I thought you would learn from that. But after a number of honest responses calling you on this (mostly non-vindictive), you seem to be saying you would do the same thing tomorrow. That indicates that you posted in the hopes of affirmation and rationalization. I think this is the difference between a truly ethical salesperson, and one who doesn't break the law but does whatever they can get away with. So I will close by saying, REPENT! I also have made moral slights in the past but in recent years have come to understand that my honor is worth more than that. Just think on it. I am not one to judge, but I'll help you interpret. "I see. And what do YOU think of that?" :) Merry Christmas.

Jimmy W
12-26-2018, 12:20 AM
I think Joe got his Arse handed to him more by bilge liberals than “Republicans”.

I think liberals are more opposed to using lies to get what you want. Republicans and Trumpsters consider it business as usual.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-26-2018, 12:36 AM
I think liberals are more opposed to using lies to get what you want. Republicans and Trumpsters consider it business as usual.

Ain't that the truth. The Animal House defense; "It's your fault. You trusted us."

Joe (SoCal)
12-26-2018, 01:12 AM
My contention is that you have misread the situation. You claim that it was charm that got you that table, and the other woman didnt get one because she was strident.
As others have stated you got the table because you lied, not because you were more charming than your immediate competitor for an unreserved table. Why cant you see that?

In the grand scheme of things it is a relatively unimportant event, but possibly a strong indicator of the type of person you really are.
All is not lost however, the fact that you posted about this shows that the inner you sensed there was something wrong, frrom now on give that better part of the inner you the upper hand, say seven Hail Marys, and fit a performance kit to the scooter and all will be forgiven!

Wrong, but you keep fiddling with the facts as you see fit, you obviously aren't alone :D. As George Jung wrote this is an interesting case study of how some of you "interpret" things.

Funny no one asked us how the meal was or what we had :) Beautiful view

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48391100_10215288387376416_3182382706897977344_n.j pg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_eui2=AeGQsFDh37mnnfe6laffXhpMW8uz_RBiOhSO7pJBY fHhDiDjUVm1HStEhWhJb8UFpgUK_Y-3u34pZDMpmDmxzRvCwzgV20IEXDZtrup6-ke-nQ&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=f89f2e4983556ddba05b4b83ef11bea9&oe=5C92BE4B

Joe (SoCal)
12-26-2018, 01:20 AM
Joe,

As you said, there appears no harm to others on this one. That said, the whole reason you posed this question is that in the back of your mind, there was an inkling of something being wrong, and asking about that was a good instinct, it's called conscience. And I thought you would learn from that. But after a number of honest responses calling you on this (mostly non-vindictive), you seem to be saying you would do the same thing tomorrow. That indicates that you posted in the hopes of affirmation and rationalization. I think this is the difference between a truly ethical salesperson, and one who doesn't break the law but does whatever they can get away with. So I will close by saying, REPENT! I also have made moral slights in the past but in recent years have come to understand that my honor is worth more than that. Just think on it. I am not one to judge, but I'll help you interpret. "I see. And what do YOU think of that?" :) Merry Christmas.

Bob I always respect your opinion and you have it partially correct. I'm always re-evaluating and giving pause for some introspection, making sure my compass is working correctly. What got me thinking about this was primarily the initial reactions on the forum and social media to this non-event. I wondered where I'm not seeing the outrage, to be honest I still can't see the level of outrage some are having.

I think it's important to know this in not usual behavior, I'm definitely on the honest side of the road most often, but we all have our moments and none of us are saints. Maybe I'm being a little more honest in my admission and asking than most people would be willing to divulge on open forum.

I actually enjoy taking advice and seeing things from perspectives that I admire. The right / left political slant that is being attempted is truly a non issue in this but it was bound to happen.

Jimmy W
12-26-2018, 01:30 AM
Funny no one asked us how the meal was or what we had :) Beautiful view



I don't think that makes that much difference to the thread. Is lying less wrong if the food received or the view is better? If the view and food is good enough can we excuse the "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" thing?

Joe (SoCal)
12-26-2018, 01:39 AM
I seriously did not know this was a holier than thou forum. He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone. Seems to be a lot of sinless sailors with a basket full of stones. :D

Jimmy W
12-26-2018, 01:49 AM
I am not very religious and am not without sin. I don't consider myself Christian or Jewish or Muslim or any other religion, but I do think there are some good principles in most religions. Not lying to folks and killing them and not stealing from them are some of those things. You might think differently.

Decourcy
12-26-2018, 01:50 AM
I seriously did not know this was a holier than thou forum. He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone. Seems to be a lot of sinless sailors with a basket full of stones. :D

No one here is without sin. Few are as overtly proud of their own, and incapable of seeing them as failing of character rather than strength.
Youve said you'd do the same again, rather than recognizing that by using deceit for gain, you lessened yourself.

Own your failing as a failing and move on.

PeterSibley
12-26-2018, 01:51 AM
I see you've found your shovel Joe, keep digging.

Jimmy W
12-26-2018, 01:54 AM
That said, some folks might really need killing.

Joe (SoCal)
12-26-2018, 01:54 AM
I see you've found your shovel Joe, keep digging.

I found gold - Honestly it's probably one of my most interesting threads. A real social experiment, I'm rather enjoying it.

Joe (SoCal)
12-26-2018, 01:57 AM
That said, some folks might really need killing.

Ah to be fair it is only the 7th commandment, and can you believe it comes after honor thy mother and father ? ;)

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-26-2018, 02:07 AM
Bob I always respect your opinion and you have it partially correct. I'm always re-evaluating and giving pause for some introspection, making sure my compass is working correctly. What got me thinking about this was primarily the initial reactions on the forum and social media to this non-event. I wondered where I'm not seeing the outrage, to be honest I still can't see the level of outrage some are having.

I think it's important to know this in not usual behavior, I'm definitely on the honest side of the road most often, but we all have our moments and none of us are saints. Maybe I'm being a little more honest in my admission and asking than most people would be willing to divulge on open forum.

I actually enjoy taking advice and seeing things from perspectives that I admire. The right / left political slant that is being attempted is truly a non issue in this but it was bound to happen.

Asking question is always good, especially questioning yourself.

Your "not seeing the outrage", that is simply because using your skills as ends-justify-the-means may be the norm for you, and perhaps the norm for those around you, either there or where you grew up or when you were in business back east. But that has no bearing on whether it is right or wrong, unless you are always of the opinion on issues, whether it's the norm or "community standards", rather than basing the decisions on ethical logic.

If you are wrong, don't be afraid to admit it in hindsight. Some feel that admitting an error is weakness, but I have never respected those of that view. These days, we are inundated with those of that view who cling to a view despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. Please note, this point is not to say you are wrong, that is a separate issue. But if you do reach that conclusion, be honest about it, it's both the right thing to do, and, in my opinion, wins respect.

For me, analogies and reversals help me make decisions. What if I were the restaurant? What if I found this out about a person that I do business with, would that make me trust them less?

I am not without sin. As an engineering student, I went to the local Grand Prix (when it was still Formula One) and got a press photo pass by saying I represented my school newspaper. My school didn't have a newspaper. I got great photos (for only personal enjoyment), and at first glance, I would say I feel no guilt because I hurt no one, I was actually down there on practice/qualifying day so didn't squeeze out any actual press, and even on race day there was more than enough turns to accommodate all of the press. But these days, I might have an issue with what I did because... well... I was being dishonest. And that costs me, ethically. Not that there aren't exceptions; "Of course you look great in that dress." The things we do for love.

You are loved.

Joe (SoCal)
12-26-2018, 02:16 AM
Thank you Bob

This is why I come to this place.
Have a good night all.

Ted Hoppe
12-26-2018, 03:23 AM
questions for you Joe (I may have missed the answer to this already) as this thread is interesting in other ways. It really places a spotlight on character and willingness to game a situation. We internalize and justify our own motives to get what we want. Our partners see these actions in a different light if they are truly watching and with them make determinations on trust, propriety, deference and ultimately judge one as a shared partner/provider which are all mutually exclusive. In the end besides yourself, it is her that sees the reflection of who you truly are and works to assimilate it with her own personal ethical and moral code.

what does Renee think about this event (and other similar times) and do you think that reflects on the nature your own personal relationship and trust with her?

Joe (SoCal)
12-26-2018, 10:46 AM
questions for you Joe (I may have missed the answer to this already) as this thread is interesting in other ways. It really places a spotlight on character and willingness to game a situation. We internalize and justify our own motives to get what we want. Our partners see these actions in a different light if they are truly watching and with them make determinations on trust, propriety, deference and ultimately judge one as a shared partner/provider which are all mutually exclusive. In the end besides yourself, it is her that sees the reflection of who you truly are and works to assimilate it with her own personal ethical and moral code.

what does Renee think about this event (and other similar times) and do you think that reflects on the nature your own personal relationship and trust with her?

Brilliant question Ted. So since I'm eager to figure out why some have such strong feelings about this I told her about this thread and how I'm having a challenge finding the proper introspection and some of the harsh criticism I can't explain. I also said than some people just come out of the woodwork to pile on simply because I'm the JCOS they love to hate ;)

I asked her what she thought: She's from Jersey so repeating most of what she said to the haters would send me to bandcamp quickly ;) . Although in a tender moment I seriously asked her what SHE honestly thought. Her response was surprising, she said she was proud of me !!! :eek: She likes that I have a quick and mind and can read a situation and that I'm ballsy enough to make it happen. She said it's kinda sexy ( her words not mine ) Then she said another interesting thing, she said I took care of her and her mother, I took control of the situation and gave her mother a wonderful experience and she needed that. You see her and her mother have always had a turbulent past (as most mother daughter relationships are) but since we moved here and seen how we've grown and done well it's been a huge cathartic experience between the two. She said I have always put her and her mother's needs first and I'm always going the extra step to make sure she has a magical time when she comes to visit.

I'm thinking about this that was my motivating factor, not just for the game or "Charm" the system, but to take a risk and shoot for it to score the best table to make my wife proud and make my mother-in-law have a magical time.

amish rob
12-26-2018, 11:01 AM
Joe,

I only pause at the lie. Just Joeing your way in would have been AMAZING.

Granted, you didn’t really do much except be a salesman, but you DID lie about the reservation. That little, tiny, part sucks.

Taking care of your wife and her mom? Not nobody here would ever question that, Brother. Boy, don’t I know how I love MY wife and her kin. The motivation, the gesture, the evening, the everything were all beautiful.

But, you did lie. And that bothers people.

So, next time, just walk up and say, I’m Joe Foster, is my table ready? Geez, with that smile, and your boddabing, and two lovely ladies on your arm, YOU oughtta be able to charm your way into Ft. Knox. :)

I’m glad you guys had a good night. And glad youse two found each other to love, so.

Peace,
Robert

P.S. Make any “reservations” for New Years, yet? :d And, how’s the bikes?

Paul Girouard
12-26-2018, 11:41 AM
Brilliant question Ted. So since I'm eager to figure out why some have such strong feelings about this I told her about this thread and how I'm having a challenge finding the proper introspection and some of the harsh criticism I can't explain. I also said than some people just come out of the woodwork to pile on simply because I'm the JCOS they love to hate ;)

I asked her what she thought: She's from Jersey so repeating most of what she said to the haters would send me to bandcamp quickly ;) . Although in a tender moment I seriously asked her what SHE honestly thought. Her response was surprising, she said she was proud of me !!! :eek: She likes that I have a quick and mind and can read a situation and that I'm ballsy enough to make it happen. She said it's kinda sexy ( her words not mine ) Then she said another interesting thing, she said I took care of her and her mother, I took control of the situation and gave her mother a wonderful experience and she needed that. You see her and her mother have always had a turbulent past (as most mother daughter relationships are) but since we moved here and seen how we've grown and done well it's been a huge cathartic experience between the two. She said I have always put her and her mother's needs first and I'm always going the extra step to make sure she has a magical time when she comes to visit.

I'm thinking about this that was my motivating factor, not just for the game or "Charm" the system, but to take a risk and shoot for it to score the best table to make my wife proud and make my mother-in-law have a magical time.


Well seeing you put it that way , you could prolly shoot someone on 5th ave. And still get elected! LOL.

Joe (SoCal)
12-26-2018, 12:07 PM
Well seeing you put it that way , you could prolly shoot someone on 5th ave. And still get elected! LOL.

Degrees Paul, degrees - Charming your way into a restaurant VS placing a revolver against the head of someone in the middle of fifth avenue and squeezing the trigger feeling brain mass and warm blood splatter against your face is completely differing don't ya think.

Is it all the same for you ? Are you so brutally honest that if a child asked you about Santa would you dispel the myth quickly with callus thought? If your wife asked if she looked fat in this dress ? Would you tell her to get on the scale so we can know the truth ? Would you spare a person you loved heartache by neglecting to tell them something that would be the TRUTH ?

Last question have you EVER lied, stretched the truth, "Charmed" a situation or are you completely without sin or fault ? Have you the introspection to ASK what others thought, and accept input to look at your own character ?

Paul Girouard
12-26-2018, 12:22 PM
Degrees Paul, degrees - Charming your way into a restaurant VS placing a revolver against the head of someone in the middle of fifth avenue and squeezing the trigger feeling brain mass and warm blood splatter against your face is completely differing don't ya think.

Is it all the same for you ? Are you so brutally honest that if a child asked you about Santa would you dispel the myth quickly with callus thought? If your wife asked if she looked fat in this dress ? Would you tell her to get on the scale so we can know the truth ? Would you spare a person you loved heartache by neglecting to tell them something that would be the TRUTH ?

Last question have you EVER lied, stretched the truth, "Charmed" a situation or are you completely without sin or fault ? Have you the introspection to ASK what others thought, and accept input to look at your own character ?


This threads about you Joe , not me.
I’m pretty honest , kinda like McMike to my own demise.
As far as Santa goes I’d let the parent answer that question but shrugging it off , or saying ask you Momma.
And where’s your sense of humor, lost in the shuffle of introspection??
Happy New Year !

SKIP KILPATRICK
12-26-2018, 12:26 PM
This does look like a fun game!

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/CTC30C/aunt-sally-an-oxfordshire-pub-game-at-the-charlbury-beer-festival-CTC30C.jpg (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjKwfujgb7fAhXFnuAKHWMOAG8QjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.alamy.com%2Fstock-photo-aunt-sally-an-oxfordshire-pub-game-at-the-charlbury-beer-festival-49438268.html&psig=AOvVaw3za1Hdf43qYkJR3ve4maM-&ust=1545931235916138)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunt_Sally

Aunt Sal·ly
/ˌant ˈsalē/
noun
noun: Aunt Sally


a game played in some parts of Britain in which players throw sticks or balls at a wooden dummy.



a dummy used in the game of Aunt Sally.
plural noun: Aunt Sallies



a person or thing that is subjected to much criticism, especially one set up as an easy target for it.

Decourcy
12-26-2018, 12:47 PM
There aren't any "haters" of you here Joe. They hate the action, not the man. Maybe a little introspection is in order when almost without fail, all the people that you normally communicate with here are telling you that lieing to get in was punching below the belt.

Joe (SoCal)
12-26-2018, 12:49 PM
:D :D :D

Love it :D

LeeG
12-26-2018, 01:00 PM
oh hell my $.02. Don’t know why you sre seeking judgement but my suggestion would be to ask how you would feel if a customer or employee lied to you for their benefit in a similar circumstance with the consequences for you anything from positive to negative.

George Jung
12-26-2018, 01:21 PM
Lessee.... how would Joe see it? 1) looks to me like they filled one more table that would've otherwise stayed empty 2) bet the staff enjoyed serving their party 3) bet more than one person at that restaurant had Joes measure, enjoyed the salesmanship, and gave a reservation.

BTW, Joe - I need reservations for NYE..... :P

artif
12-26-2018, 01:31 PM
Joe have you tried this
http://vistriai.com/psychopathtest/

Yeadon
12-26-2018, 01:40 PM
Let's be serious here for a minute. Take this quiz (https://www.buzzfeed.com/perpetua/are-you-a-cake-or-are-you-a-pie?origin=nofil).

SKIP KILPATRICK
12-26-2018, 01:48 PM
Let's be serious here for a minute. Take this quiz (https://www.buzzfeed.com/perpetua/are-you-a-cake-or-are-you-a-pie?origin=nofil).


Not a shocker!


You got: Cream Pie You are thirsty. SOOO THIRSTY. You are full of love and lust and nervous energy.

Joe (SoCal)
12-26-2018, 02:08 PM
Joe have you tried this
http://vistriai.com/psychopathtest/

Took my time and really thought about each and every answer to each question.

The test is complete.

You scored 15. Scores above 30 indicate psychopathy, of course only a professional, which this test is not, can make a true assessment. This test was made just for fun.

Below is a graph of how other people who have taken this test have scored:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAkMAAAFDCAMAAAA OD/o0AAAAhFBMVEX/// fudFgi7S/0OFAdKWzs7N/osIARYbGxsbs7Ozf6vEgXJXa2tq9vb25ubm2/////8AAAAD/25BbgqY6AWZ1lLCQ2//6 /vQ0NCTprlmADozZ5gAAGYhUY2ns7/akDq2ZgD/tmZcBQAAZraQOghmtv9sE2wRBzqzxNY6kNvT3 q26J2ZDrzBAAAKHklEQVR42uzcy24aMRSAYSdcBiYLGBqockEJ KWlC3/8B23EXVKqomDENJv6 1Vkgr35Z1iCdAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPzTfNs0uwD9PVf14m 0VoK/5vX5Is7idBUixqZ6a5jVAb5tmFza/30MjCjZNuYfqMN/uL6LJJFCgyTTpPaQhkhoKz7uweZxpqHCTaeI3xtegocLFhpJoq HQaQkN0pCGyoyE0REcaIjsaQkN0pCGyoyE0REcaIjsaQkN0pCG yoyE0REcaIjsaQkN0pCGyoyE01N8gmgY01NdN1RoENHTqht6Hr WVAQ30buqpaw4CGNHRATg0tXpqmqjVUuKSGNt8 zT00HrauNPTx 4curaFB1br5u6HrOI819MENzbcrDZHW0P1L87b63A3VVVQH/ktD7Y78 ffZr nr6EIsq9Z6FK2r1jLOD3H 8sePHuJ8V0V3Iw6bJu/Kdw8VbqIhDZ2vobgTdrG qO9DGoryaSg8Nc3jzJu6dIX916GhSEMd1YPWjxM0tBy23gMlND SsWldxHsf5Ormh/aloSEMa0lBWNKQhDZ2lof1LHQ31a2h/KhrSkIY0dHYa0pCGNNSDhjSUFQ1pSEMa6kFDGsqKhk7QUD2OQq E0lNpQPDUKhdKQhjSUW0PlbcbSkIY0pKHONHRAPYw0dAQNHWio ijR0BA1pKC8a0pCGNNSdhjSUl8SGFrfZ7GzQ0PGyaugne/fCmzYMhWGYqoyQjEtMCxNdaQiUa////xs aRSqjuZymuKE99M0Wdp0pKqPbAc7h6U7fT8wVDwuGYp3zEMYUh kKt28YwpDKUHRgP4QhlaFwG6SGhqNTfo36V8yLJ lL/sp4KuOHhISM5zJe9CULz2Yu44THg4zf 8KeV30pUNX7WPV2MlIYWm46qSF/cMqw718xA0/iSxIScxlPEx4y3sv4ty9JZoy9jBMSUxnPEx7nVQcFqnofq95OF PNQuDI2G9Yy1jI H6rN0L5n03ZPGKrLUFa17Zf1OevAEIYwVD4YynLs2dxhqGQw9O lbMzFUMhjCkFvBEIYwhKHywRCG3AqGMIShphhqb1N0DH2foVv9 xnMMYQhDGCofDGHIrWAIQxjCkDL1G4q8IDJmgyEMVTUUPs1Ofy aPYwxhqKqh7TjyAgxhSLOWmd0sZi3DEHtqDJ0HQxhyK7mGYmPz zH4IQ5X31KsN89D3G pJ/E4rUuC5DEPfbyit2orkrmXLA4YwpFzLXNsPHe9tAgw5k Y9l73/XjDkTFSGYmN2MwxhKOc/hK/GmP//tJMToPh5jCEM5RA6JIf3l89kMYSh3Gd7 fvy1RAMYUgxD01W7IcwpNgPSWQ/9IN9YS91cHWzL ylqv20aiui6Aub7oeyvrBDv/Zc6uDqZl/YS1X9tGorUvjZnj11XWvZtGuz7zQ2CkOyjk0W7KlVhrKqjY3qT n5kD0HYU2OoaXfyMeRamncnH0OupXl38jHkWji3x9Dt3WPEkGv JP uYYQhDLbvHiCHXwn4IQxjCkD71n9t74dMMQz9i6K5r07BmxAXu D00WQewFGKrfUFa1USnwbH8yFG7ZU2NINw9FzEMYUt9jZD EIZ7LMHSWGzTUlQQYcjLF1rL1lQ15Egy5mYLvBq0xhCH1O4oYw lDlO2hr5iEM6c/tk5N7DGGowc9lGHI5GMIQhjBUPhi6EUPHrk0DGlpjyFlDaVXn8 7WhcDvGEIaUht6ceDcIQy4nZy1bfvnp0GRlzAZDGKr8jqJ8l0e 8m2EIQ5Vjb1mHrxsMYUh1jzFcYQhDmr6w8i8YwpDm7keUbLb/1NwXNmuj2sK sIWqziXDvosZqeahKN1RD rtC5u1UW1hX9hSVV3MULEfsrMQnw8p1rIKVV2M4rlMvvOlNkP vQRD7Ta0NDZ1PJdlv20MtdvQezCEIQxhCEMYKhkMYcitYKh5hn pdG3cap2GoeYaSqu40SytgKLS3hDCEIYWhaGPPyzCEoUqGwqcZ hjCkMSSnZQfWMgwp17LIrNlTY6i6odhex4 NF2AIQ1XfDQo68aHTmTyyH8KQxhCfD2FIu5ZhCEN8To2hj8EQh rKqx55N6bMzDGHoU9VywRCGMIQhDGHoH3vnwpUoFIVRZsoXSxB waTaKPFIZm////6Z7YIU1OlxCuWB7r2odzb7Tvex4JGhHHRoK1UsUh3CoKrUKHMI hHMIhHLqdQ/aD4hWHcOhrlDOIQziEQziEQzjUmkNyYhEO4ZDVAC/d4BAONXEo8kPWQzjUyKGxzbYMh9gfwqGuODRWuO60GcUrWkq9l TqcCiNhLPVc6oXUQ6nXUo9HwlRYSz38f2ooN7Y6qeOKVEEvVbh tass413FoJQ45OIRDbMvYlrE/hEM4hEPfziGe68AhHMIhHMKh86mLR8Vv6yw4hEM1Us AQziEQziEQ1d26Ge 3cYhHPqSQ Xk/MAhHMIhHMIhHMIhHNJKFXAIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3A Ih3Do2zpUzAAO4RAO4RAO4RAOmXXIfhRwyLhD clbr310aCTgkHGHilQcwiEcwiEcwqG7cKhIxSEcau5QmdqGQ97 O38xwCIcaOBS/qI9qh8r3jMSh3jk0GQqT2zjk/VrKi8dUOlT VjjUO4fKGbiBQ8of8eiSQ68PChuHcKiGQ2eXNg7hkI5D8pqeg4 HjjISt47iOkw9jLvVC6rXU25HgyI1Q6oXUc6kfpX6WOpS6fupa I7Vo/ayTuq1IFfRTHdOpoUxT/RlYzBXPeZLUbx0G13FoXDj0jit1wYf65MblH3DLuu1UtzrV6VG q20Lq9Db71FPXKhmc1M6qrFdOWU9OHyRmXz3VneqkTqpTrR6lT tpIbXxsj0NdTu26Q17qb2Y41OnUrjsk4FCnU3vs0OTi0j5pOK3 jUPNUVyt1Up1q9Si12QyMV7VSm/N06cZT7QeR qHuUWsAAAAAADBOfmqjAeRZFxPtg9T392YGnvh ttRv3Zf5zp/ MIC81b6B9l66t5JsaWLgwVvbZDMzNOdxxXw3fhq2deSt9k20T0 a25e32ZgYuE26mdZLdar6DIrh15K32zbSXdZGpgUcj20hr7/CnnO87cUha67e/jwVpBWm2NDPo6Bjg0BWJNsbsVftDJlp7BxuHrkiULY0NXPU00T re/zPf/d nlqVopH0kB7ffa5/aS33F5yOJvh/by1gMtA ypamBJ2obGtrarfsy315q8H MJtrH V kkYFHvvTUbX0X8w0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA1I3k9Az Zbqq1wYlG5mnBYKmniHmRW9qMuj1WXS8VF9DdK9ZcVHdT A1tVPxRnpItTpFV7egRURaBDIRiwI7cIkb5c7lPqgaA5mt9fF4 PsQ6COv6oT28nVwvHx3eh8tICqCQ d1wmd7ApAwAAAAAAAIC/7cEhAQAAAICg/6 dYQEAAAAAdgHPSwFVJe70vwAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==

5.5% of people score higher than 30.

Ted Hoppe
12-26-2018, 02:08 PM
This thread is a great examination of expectations, norms and evidence of how one wins in society. Joe proves the ends to getting what he wants often justify the means. Nothing ventured nothing gained. He pops the overly relished concept of true fair play and reminds us it meant to keep (us) the meek and socially bound clearly in thier place. What one expects from other people is different from what one can demand for oneself. Joe put himself and his first despite the break in norms and values. In another truth, one was really hurt despite the fabrication and misrepresentation. Found opportunity with ever recognizable handle and exploitation is a foundational piece of creating good fortune. Perhaps the lesson is more for the gatekeeper at the restaurant than a judge of character. Your girl loves you are a man that makes things happen and enjoys the sharing of this boldness. If joe and Renee are happy with the fortune that befalls these actions, joes proves he needs not play by rules others chose to live by.

Joe with Rene will florish as they appear to play nice in thier own affairs, game the system in thier favor and will one day buy the house in San Clemente as long as they abide by the commitments and understandings they have chosen to live by. They don’t need to play by what we think are norms as long as they are law abiding and true to the ethical behavior of thier own business. The truth is he is takes his winnings seriously and relishes the chance to game the system which will work for him as long as he see both side and know when to act judiciously.

28644

Joe (SoCal)
12-26-2018, 02:10 PM
Let's be serious here for a minute. Take this quiz (https://www.buzzfeed.com/perpetua/are-you-a-cake-or-are-you-a-pie?origin=nofil).

I wasn't as serious with this test :D

You got: Chocolate Cake
When it comes down to it, you care about sensuality and pleasure above all other things. If you had your way, life would be nothing but leisure, food, fun, art, and sex.

paulf
12-26-2018, 02:23 PM
Let's be serious here for a minute. Take this quiz (https://www.buzzfeed.com/perpetua/are-you-a-cake-or-are-you-a-pie?origin=nofil).

Why answer the questions honestly? Just change answers until you get the result you want, then post the result to show your coolness.

Joe (SoCal)
12-26-2018, 02:27 PM
This thread is a great examination of expectations, norms and evidence of how one wins in society. Joe proves the ends to getting what he wants often justify the means. Nothing ventured nothing gained. He pops the overly relished concept of true fair play and reminds us it meant to keep (us) the meek and socially bound clearly in their place. What one expects from other people is different from what one can demand for oneself. Joe put himself and his first despite the break in norms and values. In another truth, one was really hurt despite the fabrication and misrepresentation. Found opportunity and exploitation is a foundational piece of good fortune. Perhaps the lesson is more for the gatekeeper at the restaurant than a judge of character. Your girl loves you are a man that makes things happen and enjoys the sharing of this boldness. If you and she are happy with the fortune that befalls these actions, you need not play by rules others chose to live by.

Joe with Rene will flourish as they play a nice, game the system in their favor and one day buy the house in San Clemente as long as they abide by the commitments and understandings they have chosen to live by. They don’t need to play by what we think are norms as long as they are law abiding and true to the ethical behavior of their own business. The truth is he is takes his winnings seriously and relishes the chance to game the system which will work for him as long as he see both side and know some when to act judiciously.

28644

Interesting Segway

About a week ago we went with a RE agent in San Clemente and saw this property. https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/25596514_zpid/800000-900000_price/3196-3595_mp/33.4564,-117.610574,33.408695,-117.672372_rect/13_zm/1_fr/

28645

I completely rattled and charmed the agent. Peppering her with NY style real estate questions. I already looked up the buy and saw they bought it a year ago for $770 and were riding the market listing it as high as $1.1 mill - crazy I knew they overpaid and and were hurting since they bought it to flip.

I also saw there was significant crap going on in the back and researched and found out a geological event to place and a water main broke and took out a nearby cliff face and some house up the rode and they were making repairs for a year and it looked like crap. I also saw the free standing garage as a possible guest cottage ( income ). I also noticed the basic reno for the flip, Hot Water Heater needed to be moved and the roof was not touched. I do the math fast and ask her quickly about all my concerns and her stuttering and side step were no match (* ya see ya can't charm a charmer ;) )

I tell her the owners are bleeding money and they bought too high, she says make an offer. I say I'll think about it. Over the holiday she texts me the following:


Good morning Joe & Renee. I just heard from the listing agent on Via Cascadita & it is going to trustee sale. If they don’t have an offer/open escrow by next Friday, it will have to be bought through the bank. Were you all interested in writing an offer? I don’t mean to press @ the holidays...just trying to think of you all.

I offer $500K no contingency - lets see if they are done bleeding.

artif
12-26-2018, 02:37 PM
Better?? than me I hit 21|:)

Took my time and really thought about each and every answer to each question.

The test is complete.

You scored 15. Scores above 30 indicate psychopathy, of course only a professional, which this test is not, can make a true assessment. This test was made just for fun.

Below is a graph of how other people who have taken this test have scored:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAkMAAAFDCAMAAAA OD/o0AAAAhFBMVEX/// fudFgi7S/0OFAdKWzs7N/osIARYbGxsbs7Ozf6vEgXJXa2tq9vb25ubm2/////8AAAAD/25BbgqY6AWZ1lLCQ2//6 /vQ0NCTprlmADozZ5gAAGYhUY2ns7/akDq2ZgD/tmZcBQAAZraQOghmtv9sE2wRBzqzxNY6kNvT3 q26J2ZDrzBAAAKHklEQVR42uzcy24aMRSAYSdcBiYLGBqockEJ KWlC3/8B23EXVKqomDENJv6 1Vkgr35Z1iCdAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPzTfNs0uwD9PVf14m 0VoK/5vX5Is7idBUixqZ6a5jVAb5tmFza/30MjCjZNuYfqMN/uL6LJJFCgyTTpPaQhkhoKz7uweZxpqHCTaeI3xtegocLFhpJoq HQaQkN0pCGyoyE0REcaIjsaQkN0pCGyoyE0REcaIjsaQkN0pCG yoyE0REcaIjsaQkN0pCGyoyE01N8gmgY01NdN1RoENHTqht6Hr WVAQ30buqpaw4CGNHRATg0tXpqmqjVUuKSGNt8 zT00HrauNPTx 4curaFB1br5u6HrOI819MENzbcrDZHW0P1L87b63A3VVVQH/ktD7Y78 ffZr nr6EIsq9Z6FK2r1jLOD3H 8sePHuJ8V0V3Iw6bJu/Kdw8VbqIhDZ2vobgTdrG qO9DGoryaSg8Nc3jzJu6dIX916GhSEMd1YPWjxM0tBy23gMlND SsWldxHsf5Ormh/aloSEMa0lBWNKQhDZ2lof1LHQ31a2h/KhrSkIY0dHYa0pCGNNSDhjSUFQ1pSEMa6kFDGsqKhk7QUD2OQq E0lNpQPDUKhdKQhjSUW0PlbcbSkIY0pKHONHRAPYw0dAQNHWio ijR0BA1pKC8a0pCGNNSdhjSUl8SGFrfZ7GzQ0PGyaugne/fCmzYMhWGYqoyQjEtMCxNdaQiUa////xs aRSqjuZymuKE99M0Wdp0pKqPbAc7h6U7fT8wVDwuGYp3zEMYUh kKt28YwpDKUHRgP4QhlaFwG6SGhqNTfo36V8yLJ lL/sp4KuOHhISM5zJe9CULz2Yu44THg4zf 8KeV30pUNX7WPV2MlIYWm46qSF/cMqw718xA0/iSxIScxlPEx4y3sv4ty9JZoy9jBMSUxnPEx7nVQcFqnofq95OF PNQuDI2G9Yy1jI H6rN0L5n03ZPGKrLUFa17Zf1OevAEIYwVD4YynLs2dxhqGQw9O lbMzFUMhjCkFvBEIYwhKHywRCG3AqGMIShphhqb1N0DH2foVv9 xnMMYQhDGCofDGHIrWAIQxjCkDL1G4q8IDJmgyEMVTUUPs1Ofy aPYwxhqKqh7TjyAgxhSLOWmd0sZi3DEHtqDJ0HQxhyK7mGYmPz zH4IQ5X31KsN89D3G pJ/E4rUuC5DEPfbyit2orkrmXLA4YwpFzLXNsPHe9tAgw5k Y9l73/XjDkTFSGYmN2MwxhKOc/hK/GmP//tJMToPh5jCEM5RA6JIf3l89kMYSh3Gd7 fvy1RAMYUgxD01W7IcwpNgPSWQ/9IN9YS91cHWzL ylqv20aiui6Aub7oeyvrBDv/Zc6uDqZl/YS1X9tGorUvjZnj11XWvZtGuz7zQ2CkOyjk0W7KlVhrKqjY3qT n5kD0HYU2OoaXfyMeRamncnH0OupXl38jHkWji3x9Dt3WPEkGv JP uYYQhDLbvHiCHXwn4IQxjCkD71n9t74dMMQz9i6K5r07BmxAXu D00WQewFGKrfUFa1USnwbH8yFG7ZU2NINw9FzEMYUt9jZD EIZ7LMHSWGzTUlQQYcjLF1rL1lQ15Egy5mYLvBq0xhCH1O4oYw lDlO2hr5iEM6c/tk5N7DGGowc9lGHI5GMIQhjBUPhi6EUPHrk0DGlpjyFlDaVXn8 7WhcDvGEIaUht6ceDcIQy4nZy1bfvnp0GRlzAZDGKr8jqJ8l0e 8m2EIQ5Vjb1mHrxsMYUh1jzFcYQhDmr6w8i8YwpDm7keUbLb/1NwXNmuj2sK sIWqziXDvosZqeahKN1RD rtC5u1UW1hX9hSVV3MULEfsrMQnw8p1rIKVV2M4rlMvvOlNkP vQRD7Ta0NDZ1PJdlv20MtdvQezCEIQxhCEMYKhkMYcitYKh5hn pdG3cap2GoeYaSqu40SytgKLS3hDCEIYWhaGPPyzCEoUqGwqcZ hjCkMSSnZQfWMgwp17LIrNlTY6i6odhex4 NF2AIQ1XfDQo68aHTmTyyH8KQxhCfD2FIu5ZhCEN8To2hj8EQh rKqx55N6bMzDGHoU9VywRCGMIQhDGHoH3vnwpUoFIVRZsoXSxB waTaKPFIZm////6Z7YIU1OlxCuWB7r2odzb7Tvex4JGhHHRoK1UsUh3CoKrUKHMI hHMIhHLqdQ/aD4hWHcOhrlDOIQziEQziEQzjUmkNyYhEO4ZDVAC/d4BAONXEo8kPWQzjUyKGxzbYMh9gfwqGuODRWuO60GcUrWkq9l TqcCiNhLPVc6oXUQ6nXUo9HwlRYSz38f2ooN7Y6qeOKVEEvVbh tass413FoJQ45OIRDbMvYlrE/hEM4hEPfziGe68AhHMIhHMKh86mLR8Vv6yw4hEM1Us AQziEQziEQ1d26Ge 3cYhHPqSQ Xk/MAhHMIhHMIhHMIhHNJKFXAIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3A Ih3Do2zpUzAAO4RAO4RAO4RAOmXXIfhRwyLhD clbr310aCTgkHGHilQcwiEcwiEcwqG7cKhIxSEcau5QmdqGQ97 O38xwCIcaOBS/qI9qh8r3jMSh3jk0GQqT2zjk/VrKi8dUOlT VjjUO4fKGbiBQ8of8eiSQ68PChuHcKiGQ2eXNg7hkI5D8pqeg4 HjjISt47iOkw9jLvVC6rXU25HgyI1Q6oXUc6kfpX6WOpS6fupa I7Vo/ayTuq1IFfRTHdOpoUxT/RlYzBXPeZLUbx0G13FoXDj0jit1wYf65MblH3DLuu1UtzrV6VG q20Lq9Db71FPXKhmc1M6qrFdOWU9OHyRmXz3VneqkTqpTrR6lT tpIbXxsj0NdTu26Q17qb2Y41OnUrjsk4FCnU3vs0OTi0j5pOK3 jUPNUVyt1Up1q9Si12QyMV7VSm/N06cZT7QeR qHuUWsAAAAAADBOfmqjAeRZFxPtg9T392YGnvh ttRv3Zf5zp/ MIC81b6B9l66t5JsaWLgwVvbZDMzNOdxxXw3fhq2deSt9k20T0 a25e32ZgYuE26mdZLdar6DIrh15K32zbSXdZGpgUcj20hr7/CnnO87cUha67e/jwVpBWm2NDPo6Bjg0BWJNsbsVftDJlp7BxuHrkiULY0NXPU00T re/zPf/d nlqVopH0kB7ffa5/aS33F5yOJvh/by1gMtA ypamBJ2obGtrarfsy315q8H MJtrH V kkYFHvvTUbX0X8w0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA1I3k9Az Zbqq1wYlG5mnBYKmniHmRW9qMuj1WXS8VF9DdK9ZcVHdT A1tVPxRnpItTpFV7egRURaBDIRiwI7cIkb5c7lPqgaA5mt9fF4 PsQ6COv6oT28nVwvHx3eh8tICqCQ d1wmd7ApAwAAAAAAAIC/7cEhAQAAAICg/6 dYQEAAAAAdgHPSwFVJe70vwAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==

5.5% of people score higher than 30.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-26-2018, 02:48 PM
Recent research shows that sociopaths are not necessarily malicious, the defining trait is no empathy for others, and it's hard-wired. The malice is learned. Sociopaths brought up in a loving environment will not be malicious, but will also need a checklist of things to do and not do, and or counseling. The latter sentence describes the author of the study about sociopaths who took the test himself and found he was technically a sociopath. When he follows the checklist to do loving things for his wife, she thanks him, though she knows it's from the checklist and that he isn't really feeling it. Sociopaths do well in positions where emotion is a negative. Stock traders, et al. But they also frequently climb the corporate ladder not only due to decisions, but the ease with which they trample others in their path.

I'm no where near sociopath, but in decades past I was too focused on achievement with not enough about love and caring. I was extremely clever, and wanted others to know it as approval, this filled in for the lack of love in my life. Now I'm more humble or at least try to be. My girlfriend of 7 months gave me a christmas gift early, it was an christmas mantle stocking that was needlepoint with santa on a bike and my name embroidered. I broke down and wept and wept. I knew she loved me, but this made me feel like a member of the family. I didn't feel this much love growing up.

SKIP KILPATRICK
12-26-2018, 02:52 PM
The test is complete.

You scored 5. Scores above 30 indicate psychopathy, of course only a professional, which this test is not, can make a true assessment. This test was made just for fun.

Below is a graph of how other people who have taken this test have scored:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAkMAAAFDCAMAAAA OD/o0AAAAhFBMVEX/// fudFgi7S/0OFAdKWzs7N/osIARYbGxsbs7Ozf6vEgXJXa2tq9vb25ubm2/////8AAAAD/25BbgqY6AWZ1lLCQ2//6 /vQ0NCTprlmADozZ5gAAGYhUY2ns7/akDq2ZgD/tmZcBQAAZraQOghmtv9sE2wRBzqzxNY6kNvT3 q26J2ZDrzBAAAKHklEQVR42uzcy24aMRSAYSdcBiYLGBqockEJ KWlC3/8B23EXVKqomDENJv6 1Vkgr35Z1iCdAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPzTfNs0uwD9PVf14m 0VoK/5vX5Is7idBUixqZ6a5jVAb5tmFza/30MjCjZNuYfqMN/uL6LJJFCgyTTpPaQhkhoKz7uweZxpqHCTaeI3xtegocLFhpJoq HQaQkN0pCGyoyE0REcaIjsaQkN0pCGyoyE0REcaIjsaQkN0pCG yoyE0REcaIjsaQkN0pCGyoyE01N8gmgY01NdN1RoENHTqht6Hr WVAQ30buqpaw4CGNHRATg0tXpqmqjVUuKSGNt8 zT00HrauNPTx 4curaFB1br5u6HrOI819MENzbcrDZHW0P1L87b63A3VVVQH/ktD7Y78 ffZr nr6EIsq9Z6FK2r1jLOD3H 8sePHuJ8V0V3Iw6bJu/Kdw8VbqIhDZ2vobgTdrG qO9DGoryaSg8Nc3jzJu6dIX916GhSEMd1YPWjxM0tBy23gMlND SsWldxHsf5Ormh/aloSEMa0lBWNKQhDZ2lof1LHQ31a2h/KhrSkIY0dHYa0pCGNNSDhjSUFQ1pSEMa6kFDGsqKhk7QUD2OQq E0lNpQPDUKhdKQhjSUW0PlbcbSkIY0pKHONHRAPYw0dAQNHWio ijR0BA1pKC8a0pCGNNSdhjSUl8SGFrfZ7GzQ0PGyaugne/fCmzYMhWGYqoyQjEtMCxNdaQiUa////xs aRSqjuZymuKE99M0Wdp0pKqPbAc7h6U7fT8wVDwuGYp3zEMYUh kKt28YwpDKUHRgP4QhlaFwG6SGhqNTfo36V8yLJ lL/sp4KuOHhISM5zJe9CULz2Yu44THg4zf 8KeV30pUNX7WPV2MlIYWm46qSF/cMqw718xA0/iSxIScxlPEx4y3sv4ty9JZoy9jBMSUxnPEx7nVQcFqnofq95OF PNQuDI2G9Yy1jI H6rN0L5n03ZPGKrLUFa17Zf1OevAEIYwVD4YynLs2dxhqGQw9O lbMzFUMhjCkFvBEIYwhKHywRCG3AqGMIShphhqb1N0DH2foVv9 xnMMYQhDGCofDGHIrWAIQxjCkDL1G4q8IDJmgyEMVTUUPs1Ofy aPYwxhqKqh7TjyAgxhSLOWmd0sZi3DEHtqDJ0HQxhyK7mGYmPz zH4IQ5X31KsN89D3G pJ/E4rUuC5DEPfbyit2orkrmXLA4YwpFzLXNsPHe9tAgw5k Y9l73/XjDkTFSGYmN2MwxhKOc/hK/GmP//tJMToPh5jCEM5RA6JIf3l89kMYSh3Gd7 fvy1RAMYUgxD01W7IcwpNgPSWQ/9IN9YS91cHWzL ylqv20aiui6Aub7oeyvrBDv/Zc6uDqZl/YS1X9tGorUvjZnj11XWvZtGuz7zQ2CkOyjk0W7KlVhrKqjY3qT n5kD0HYU2OoaXfyMeRamncnH0OupXl38jHkWji3x9Dt3WPEkGv JP uYYQhDLbvHiCHXwn4IQxjCkD71n9t74dMMQz9i6K5r07BmxAXu D00WQewFGKrfUFa1USnwbH8yFG7ZU2NINw9FzEMYUt9jZD EIZ7LMHSWGzTUlQQYcjLF1rL1lQ15Egy5mYLvBq0xhCH1O4oYw lDlO2hr5iEM6c/tk5N7DGGowc9lGHI5GMIQhjBUPhi6EUPHrk0DGlpjyFlDaVXn8 7WhcDvGEIaUht6ceDcIQy4nZy1bfvnp0GRlzAZDGKr8jqJ8l0e 8m2EIQ5Vjb1mHrxsMYUh1jzFcYQhDmr6w8i8YwpDm7keUbLb/1NwXNmuj2sK sIWqziXDvosZqeahKN1RD rtC5u1UW1hX9hSVV3MULEfsrMQnw8p1rIKVV2M4rlMvvOlNkP vQRD7Ta0NDZ1PJdlv20MtdvQezCEIQxhCEMYKhkMYcitYKh5hn pdG3cap2GoeYaSqu40SytgKLS3hDCEIYWhaGPPyzCEoUqGwqcZ hjCkMSSnZQfWMgwp17LIrNlTY6i6odhex4 NF2AIQ1XfDQo68aHTmTyyH8KQxhCfD2FIu5ZhCEN8To2hj8EQh rKqx55N6bMzDGHoU9VywRCGMIQhDGHoH3vnwpUoFIVRZsoXSxB waTaKPFIZm////6Z7YIU1OlxCuWB7r2odzb7Tvex4JGhHHRoK1UsUh3CoKrUKHMI hHMIhHLqdQ/aD4hWHcOhrlDOIQziEQziEQzjUmkNyYhEO4ZDVAC/d4BAONXEo8kPWQzjUyKGxzbYMh9gfwqGuODRWuO60GcUrWkq9l TqcCiNhLPVc6oXUQ6nXUo9HwlRYSz38f2ooN7Y6qeOKVEEvVbh tass413FoJQ45OIRDbMvYlrE/hEM4hEPfziGe68AhHMIhHMKh86mLR8Vv6yw4hEM1Us AQziEQziEQ1d26Ge 3cYhHPqSQ Xk/MAhHMIhHMIhHMIhHNJKFXAIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3A Ih3Do2zpUzAAO4RAO4RAO4RAOmXXIfhRwyLhD clbr310aCTgkHGHilQcwiEcwiEcwqG7cKhIxSEcau5QmdqGQ97 O38xwCIcaOBS/qI9qh8r3jMSh3jk0GQqT2zjk/VrKi8dUOlT VjjUO4fKGbiBQ8of8eiSQ68PChuHcKiGQ2eXNg7hkI5D8pqeg4 HjjISt47iOkw9jLvVC6rXU25HgyI1Q6oXUc6kfpX6WOpS6fupa I7Vo/ayTuq1IFfRTHdOpoUxT/RlYzBXPeZLUbx0G13FoXDj0jit1wYf65MblH3DLuu1UtzrV6VG q20Lq9Db71FPXKhmc1M6qrFdOWU9OHyRmXz3VneqkTqpTrR6lT tpIbXxsj0NdTu26Q17qb2Y41OnUrjsk4FCnU3vs0OTi0j5pOK3 jUPNUVyt1Up1q9Si12QyMV7VSm/N06cZT7QeR qHuUWsAAAAAADBOfmqjAeRZFxPtg9T392YGnvh ttRv3Zf5zp/ MIC81b6B9l66t5JsaWLgwVvbZDMzNOdxxXw3fhq2deSt9k20T0 a25e32ZgYuE26mdZLdar6DIrh15K32zbSXdZGpgUcj20hr7/CnnO87cUha67e/jwVpBWm2NDPo6Bjg0BWJNsbsVftDJlp7BxuHrkiULY0NXPU00T re/zPf/d nlqVopH0kB7ffa5/aS33F5yOJvh/by1gMtA ypamBJ2obGtrarfsy315q8H MJtrH V kkYFHvvTUbX0X8w0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA1I3k9Az Zbqq1wYlG5mnBYKmniHmRW9qMuj1WXS8VF9DdK9ZcVHdT A1tVPxRnpItTpFV7egRURaBDIRiwI7cIkb5c7lPq gaA5mt9fF4PsQ6COv6oT28nVwvHx3eh8tICqCQ d1wmd7ApAwAAAAAAAIC/7cEhAQAAAICg/6 dYQEAAAAAdgHPSwFVJe70vwAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==

5.5% of people score higher than 30.

But, I like my coffee black with no sweetener! Explain that!!!!

McMike
12-26-2018, 06:38 PM
Took my time and really thought about each and every answer to each question.

The test is complete.

You scored 15. Scores above 30 indicate psychopathy, of course only a professional, which this test is not, can make a true assessment. This test was made just for fun.

Below is a graph of how other people who have taken this test have scored:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAkMAAAFDCAMAAAA OD/o0AAAAhFBMVEX/// fudFgi7S/0OFAdKWzs7N/osIARYbGxsbs7Ozf6vEgXJXa2tq9vb25ubm2/////8AAAAD/25BbgqY6AWZ1lLCQ2//6 /vQ0NCTprlmADozZ5gAAGYhUY2ns7/akDq2ZgD/tmZcBQAAZraQOghmtv9sE2wRBzqzxNY6kNvT3 q26J2ZDrzBAAAKHklEQVR42uzcy24aMRSAYSdcBiYLGBqockEJ KWlC3/8B23EXVKqomDENJv6 1Vkgr35Z1iCdAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPzTfNs0uwD9PVf14m 0VoK/5vX5Is7idBUixqZ6a5jVAb5tmFza/30MjCjZNuYfqMN/uL6LJJFCgyTTpPaQhkhoKz7uweZxpqHCTaeI3xtegocLFhpJoq HQaQkN0pCGyoyE0REcaIjsaQkN0pCGyoyE0REcaIjsaQkN0pCG yoyE0REcaIjsaQkN0pCGyoyE01N8gmgY01NdN1RoENHTqht6Hr WVAQ30buqpaw4CGNHRATg0tXpqmqjVUuKSGNt8 zT00HrauNPTx 4curaFB1br5u6HrOI819MENzbcrDZHW0P1L87b63A3VVVQH/ktD7Y78 ffZr nr6EIsq9Z6FK2r1jLOD3H 8sePHuJ8V0V3Iw6bJu/Kdw8VbqIhDZ2vobgTdrG qO9DGoryaSg8Nc3jzJu6dIX916GhSEMd1YPWjxM0tBy23gMlND SsWldxHsf5Ormh/aloSEMa0lBWNKQhDZ2lof1LHQ31a2h/KhrSkIY0dHYa0pCGNNSDhjSUFQ1pSEMa6kFDGsqKhk7QUD2OQq E0lNpQPDUKhdKQhjSUW0PlbcbSkIY0pKHONHRAPYw0dAQNHWio ijR0BA1pKC8a0pCGNNSdhjSUl8SGFrfZ7GzQ0PGyaugne/fCmzYMhWGYqoyQjEtMCxNdaQiUa////xs aRSqjuZymuKE99M0Wdp0pKqPbAc7h6U7fT8wVDwuGYp3zEMYUh kKt28YwpDKUHRgP4QhlaFwG6SGhqNTfo36V8yLJ lL/sp4KuOHhISM5zJe9CULz2Yu44THg4zf 8KeV30pUNX7WPV2MlIYWm46qSF/cMqw718xA0/iSxIScxlPEx4y3sv4ty9JZoy9jBMSUxnPEx7nVQcFqnofq95OF PNQuDI2G9Yy1jI H6rN0L5n03ZPGKrLUFa17Zf1OevAEIYwVD4YynLs2dxhqGQw9O lbMzFUMhjCkFvBEIYwhKHywRCG3AqGMIShphhqb1N0DH2foVv9 xnMMYQhDGCofDGHIrWAIQxjCkDL1G4q8IDJmgyEMVTUUPs1Ofy aPYwxhqKqh7TjyAgxhSLOWmd0sZi3DEHtqDJ0HQxhyK7mGYmPz zH4IQ5X31KsN89D3G pJ/E4rUuC5DEPfbyit2orkrmXLA4YwpFzLXNsPHe9tAgw5k Y9l73/XjDkTFSGYmN2MwxhKOc/hK/GmP//tJMToPh5jCEM5RA6JIf3l89kMYSh3Gd7 fvy1RAMYUgxD01W7IcwpNgPSWQ/9IN9YS91cHWzL ylqv20aiui6Aub7oeyvrBDv/Zc6uDqZl/YS1X9tGorUvjZnj11XWvZtGuz7zQ2CkOyjk0W7KlVhrKqjY3qT n5kD0HYU2OoaXfyMeRamncnH0OupXl38jHkWji3x9Dt3WPEkGv JP uYYQhDLbvHiCHXwn4IQxjCkD71n9t74dMMQz9i6K5r07BmxAXu D00WQewFGKrfUFa1USnwbH8yFG7ZU2NINw9FzEMYUt9jZD EIZ7LMHSWGzTUlQQYcjLF1rL1lQ15Egy5mYLvBq0xhCH1O4oYw lDlO2hr5iEM6c/tk5N7DGGowc9lGHI5GMIQhjBUPhi6EUPHrk0DGlpjyFlDaVXn8 7WhcDvGEIaUht6ceDcIQy4nZy1bfvnp0GRlzAZDGKr8jqJ8l0e 8m2EIQ5Vjb1mHrxsMYUh1jzFcYQhDmr6w8i8YwpDm7keUbLb/1NwXNmuj2sK sIWqziXDvosZqeahKN1RD rtC5u1UW1hX9hSVV3MULEfsrMQnw8p1rIKVV2M4rlMvvOlNkP vQRD7Ta0NDZ1PJdlv20MtdvQezCEIQxhCEMYKhkMYcitYKh5hn pdG3cap2GoeYaSqu40SytgKLS3hDCEIYWhaGPPyzCEoUqGwqcZ hjCkMSSnZQfWMgwp17LIrNlTY6i6odhex4 NF2AIQ1XfDQo68aHTmTyyH8KQxhCfD2FIu5ZhCEN8To2hj8EQh rKqx55N6bMzDGHoU9VywRCGMIQhDGHoH3vnwpUoFIVRZsoXSxB waTaKPFIZm////6Z7YIU1OlxCuWB7r2odzb7Tvex4JGhHHRoK1UsUh3CoKrUKHMI hHMIhHLqdQ/aD4hWHcOhrlDOIQziEQziEQzjUmkNyYhEO4ZDVAC/d4BAONXEo8kPWQzjUyKGxzbYMh9gfwqGuODRWuO60GcUrWkq9l TqcCiNhLPVc6oXUQ6nXUo9HwlRYSz38f2ooN7Y6qeOKVEEvVbh tass413FoJQ45OIRDbMvYlrE/hEM4hEPfziGe68AhHMIhHMKh86mLR8Vv6yw4hEM1Us AQziEQziEQ1d26Ge 3cYhHPqSQ Xk/MAhHMIhHMIhHMIhHNJKFXAIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3AIh3A Ih3Do2zpUzAAO4RAO4RAO4RAOmXXIfhRwyLhD clbr310aCTgkHGHilQcwiEcwiEcwqG7cKhIxSEcau5QmdqGQ97 O38xwCIcaOBS/qI9qh8r3jMSh3jk0GQqT2zjk/VrKi8dUOlT VjjUO4fKGbiBQ8of8eiSQ68PChuHcKiGQ2eXNg7hkI5D8pqeg4 HjjISt47iOkw9jLvVC6rXU25HgyI1Q6oXUc6kfpX6WOpS6fupa I7Vo/ayTuq1IFfRTHdOpoUxT/RlYzBXPeZLUbx0G13FoXDj0jit1wYf65MblH3DLuu1UtzrV6VG q20Lq9Db71FPXKhmc1M6qrFdOWU9OHyRmXz3VneqkTqpTrR6lT tpIbXxsj0NdTu26Q17qb2Y41OnUrjsk4FCnU3vs0OTi0j5pOK3 jUPNUVyt1Up1q9Si12QyMV7VSm/N06cZT7QeR qHuUWsAAAAAADBOfmqjAeRZFxPtg9T392YGnvh ttRv3Zf5zp/ MIC81b6B9l66t5JsaWLgwVvbZDMzNOdxxXw3fhq2deSt9k20T0 a25e32ZgYuE26mdZLdar6DIrh15K32zbSXdZGpgUcj20hr7/CnnO87cUha67e/jwVpBWm2NDPo6Bjg0BWJNsbsVftDJlp7BxuHrkiULY0NXPU00T re/zPf/d nlqVopH0kB7ffa5/aS33F5yOJvh/by1gMtA ypamBJ2obGtrarfsy315q8H MJtrH V kkYFHvvTUbX0X8w0AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA1I3k9Az Zbqq1wYlG5mnBYKmniHmRW9qMuj1WXS8VF9DdK9ZcVHdT A1tVPxRnpItTpFV7egRURaBDIRiwI7cIkb5c7lPqgaA5mt9fF4 PsQ6COv6oT28nVwvHx3eh8tICqCQ d1wmd7ApAwAAAAAAAIC/7cEhAQAAAICg/6 dYQEAAAAAdgHPSwFVJe70vwAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==

5.5% of people score higher than 30.

I scored 5.

peb
12-26-2018, 06:49 PM
Interesting Segway

About a week ago we went with a RE agent in San Clemente and saw this property. https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/25596514_zpid/800000-900000_price/3196-3595_mp/33.4564,-117.610574,33.408695,-117.672372_rect/13_zm/1_fr/

28645

I completely rattled and charmed the agent. Peppering her with NY style real estate questions. I already looked up the buy and saw they bought it a year ago for $770 and were riding the market listing it as high as $1.1 mill - crazy I knew they overpaid and and were hurting since they bought it to flip.

I also saw there was significant crap going on in the back and researched and found out a geological event to place and a water main broke and took out a nearby cliff face and some house up the rode and they were making repairs for a year and it looked like crap. I also saw the free standing garage as a possible guest cottage ( income ). I also noticed the basic reno for the flip, Hot Water Heater needed to be moved and the roof was not touched. I do the math fast and ask her quickly about all my concerns and her stuttering and side step were no match (* ya see ya can't charm a charmer ;) )

I tell her the owners are bleeding money and they bought too high, she says make an offer. I say I'll think about it. Over the holiday she texts me the following:



I offer $500K no contingency - lets see if they are done bleeding. No way you get it for 500. They probably owe 700 on it. If they bought it a year ago and it's already going to the bank, they haven't made a mortgage payment in 3 or 4 months. The bank won't let them sale it short unless they have cash to make up the difference, which even if they do, they won't want to. Maybe I am wrong, this is just off the top of my head. But it was a wise offer on your part, worth a shot.

ETA, just caught up on this thread. I have some general thoughts but do not want to prolong or restart an discussion that went on way too long and too many people went way over board.

Hwyl
12-26-2018, 06:56 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, or even a quarter of it. I objected to Joe's behavior on Facebook. I don't think it's much to get worried about.

I do hate it when couples play good cop/ bad cop, and I think the hostess probably saw right through the little charade.

I'm glad to see most on here agree with me.

I have to admit I pulled strings myself to get a reservation in the Rainbow room at the height of it's late 80's boom when there was a six month waiting list. I didn't lie though, I'd sailed for the major investor.

beam reach
12-26-2018, 06:57 PM
Darn it !

All these scores posted , let my curiosity get the better of me , and I just had to take the test too.

For what it`s worth , I scored 7.

Does that mean the world will destroy me ? :D

L.W. Baxter
12-26-2018, 07:12 PM
People with humility and strong ethics are charming.

Charming people who are humble will have strong ethics.

Ethical people who are charming tend to be humble.

All I read was the thread title. Did I miss anything.

BrianY
12-26-2018, 07:30 PM
Joe with Rene will florish as they appear to play nice in thier own affairs, game the system in thier favor and will one day buy the house in San Clemente as long as they abide by the commitments and understandings they have chosen to live by. They don’t need to play by what we think are norms as long as they are law abiding and true to the ethical behavior of thier own business. The truth is he is takes his winnings seriously and relishes the chance to game the system which will work for him as long as he see both side and know when to act judiciously.



True enough. He should not, however, be surprised when he does not receive the approval he is seeking from others for his actions and ethics. (if was not seeking such approval, why post this tale in the first place?) For many of us, the ability to game the system, especially for one's own personal advantage, is nothing to be proud of. Referring to the thread title, many of us find little "charm" and certainly no "humility" in this sort of behavior and in this post.

jtb
12-26-2018, 07:49 PM
they lied to get something they wanted, doesn't matter if " we've all done it", they lied, own it. hopefully a temporary low, not a hater.

Yeadon
12-26-2018, 08:23 PM
People with humility and strong ethics are charming.

Charming people who are humble will have strong ethics.

Ethical people who are charming tend to be humble.

All I read was the thread title. Did I miss anything.

To further clarify my position ...

28664

Joe (SoCal)
12-26-2018, 08:48 PM
Yeadon is right, of course.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-26-2018, 08:54 PM
Joe,

Regarding pleasing your girlfriend: Always a good desire. However, if she said "That guy looked at me funny. Beat him up." would not be a good thing. Lemme analogize: My last relationship about six years ago, I loved her, thought she was hysterically funny, but it didn't work out because she wanted me to be... er... dom. All the time. She liked that I could "make things happen" which was mostly about fixing anything and sailing a boat. She wanted a manly man, which I was most of the time (these days, in my more well-adjusted older age), I am very calm and compassionate. If someone is angry, I don't get angry back, I look for the reason. But she wanted anger, she would get turned on by it. Just wasn't me. Too bad, she was *hilarious*. Anyway... my point... Joe, think of it this way... your cleverness and powers of persuasion are a superpower. Now you can use your superpower for personal gain, or, like Superman (tm), choose to use it only in a benevolent way. Renee: "Joe, you could get us into that restaurant, I know you could." You: "Yeah, but it wouldn't be right to use my superpowers in that way." (halo appears above head) Renee: "I love you and your moral compass. Now drag me home and have immoral sex with me."

It's also about chivalry. Do you want to be the guy that cons his way into first class, or the guy that gives up his first class seat out of benevolence for someone?

Be the superhero. It's you. (Edit: Or Jim Rockford. But he was using deception for good.)

johnw
12-26-2018, 08:56 PM
To further clarify my position ...

28664
Well, it's perhaps a little elaborate compared to the usual pie chart:

https://percentagecalculator.mes.fm/img/memes/pie-i-have-eaten-pie-chart.jpg

but then, the concepts you are working with are a bit more complex.

I did take a test on the entire dark triad (narcissism, Machiavalianism, and psychopathy) and totally flunked it, having apparently so few of the characteristics of the triad that it's just amazing I've manage to stay in business all these years. I probably ought to be in some sort of home.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-26-2018, 09:03 PM
I did take a test on the entire dark triad (narcissism, Machiavalianism, and psychopathy) and totally flunked it, having apparently so few of the characteristics of the triad that it's just amazing I've manage to stay in business all these years. I probably ought to be in some sort of home.

That depends on what your society/community rewards in terms of business practices!

johnw
12-26-2018, 09:24 PM
That depends on what your society/community rewards in terms of business practices!
And what kind of rewards you're looking for.

Yeadon
12-26-2018, 09:47 PM
Shoot, it looks like I flipped the positive and negative values on X axis. But I'm sure those with empathy can overlook my error.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-26-2018, 09:49 PM
And what kind of rewards you're looking for.

I just discovered a tiny store on the east side that popped up when I searched for a Grocery Outlet nearby. Champion Grocery. Little mom and pop place in a strip mall. Very crunchy granola hippy vibe, run by an older couple, carries great selection of grains, nuts, other dry goods. I mention it was my first time there. "OH! Go pick out one of the (organic, expensive $2) chocolate bars, on us." I bought some tamari almonds ($5 a pound) and local dark honey, and a bunch of chips, they have big bags of kettle chips just past expiration (still fine) for fifty cents a bag! No scanner, everything rung up by hand and head-math. Went home and used the honey, says to heat it up to re-liquefy. Fortunately I tried first and discovered some chunks of honeycomb wax in there, I strained those out. Next time there, I mentioned that to them just as good advice, honey was delicious, just make a note to strain before heating. "OH! That's not supposed to be in there. Go grab another tub, on us." (!) Guess where I go whenever possible?

johnw
12-26-2018, 10:03 PM
Shoot, it looks like I flipped the positive and negative values on X axis. But I'm sure those with empathy can overlook my error.
We're all struggling to be understanding about it.

David G
12-26-2018, 10:12 PM
To further clarify my position ...

28664

Does the calculus work with that spelling of Pi?? <G>

Garret
12-26-2018, 10:12 PM
Shoot, it looks like I flipped the positive and negative values on X axis. But I'm sure those with empathy can overlook my error.

You mean you're pie-faced instead of on a cakewalk? Not sure which is better...

Dave Wright
12-26-2018, 11:21 PM
I don't know, it probably doesn't matter at all. But I do wonder why anyone recount such a story? It probably would be better if it went untold. If you want to change your behavior, do so. If not, it really doesn't matter to anyone either way.

It's all beyond my adult comprehension. I can't comprehend why anyone would want to go to this particular expensive, crowded, restaurant in Riverside, at an especially busy time? I have even more trouble comprehending why folks would want to engage in boorish behavior to get in? And finally, I can't find charm or humility anywhere in the story.

But that's just my take. You could have just sauntered in, given the hostess five hundred dollars and politely said, "Table please," with a smile. You'd have gotten your table, and you'd have no regrets about your behavior. Further, you might have conveyed the impression of wealth and class that you seem to want. What's five hundred bucks when you're going to spend a few hundred on a meal anyway?

But as I say, it really doesn't matter. Deleting the thread and forgetting about it might be best.

Jimmy W
12-26-2018, 11:47 PM
I also wonder why the story was posted the first time. Was Joe expecting a lot of virtual pats on the back for the masterful way that he was able to lie to and scam Alicia? That was his Coup de grâce of the evening?

Decourcy
12-27-2018, 12:06 AM
I also wonder why the story was posted the first time. Was Joe expecting a lot of virtual pats on the back for the masterful way that he was able to lie to and scam Alicia? That was his Coup de grâce of the evening?


Peacocks gotta peacock.

B_B
12-27-2018, 12:50 AM
It's increasingly fascinating to me the level some of you are going with this. First of all there was absolutely no adverse consequences whatsoever. Second it was a simple WTH let's give it a try we've got nothing to lose. ...
:D
You lost what integrity you had with me.
But that's of no consequence to you. So grin away.

Ted Hoppe
12-27-2018, 01:26 AM
No way you get it for 500. They probably owe 700 on it. If they bought it a year ago and it's already going to the bank, they haven't made a mortgage payment in 3 or 4 months. The bank won't let them sale it short unless they have cash to make up the difference, which even if they do, they won't want to. Maybe I am wrong, this is just off the top of my head. But it was a wise offer on your part, worth a shot.

The house is worth a shot although with thier business could be a huge distraction. Joe needs a bigger dream than a questionable house and dealing with contractors and work crews. Focusing on thier family business and maintaining a loving relationship with good communication might be a better turn. I have no doubt Joe and Renee will get to buy a nice home near the ocean. Maybe even in San Clemente.. In his ever expanding business construct, he should not limit his desire to get exactly what he and Renee want. This episode of taking a table not reserved proves he has what it takes to get what he wants. if Joe flinches on his drive, it demishes what they can achieve together. A man with a vision of growth can not be deterred. A man who likes shiny objects and desires new bobbles becomes beholden to the idea of them which if I remember right has derailed Joes path before.


For the record - I am a key lime pie.

Ed Harrow
12-27-2018, 09:03 AM
So, question remains, is it better to bluff one's way in, or bribe one's way in.

For the record, I'm a Boston cream pie, a walking contradiction.... But I knew that.

Joe (SoCal)
12-27-2018, 11:59 AM
I don't know, it probably doesn't matter at all. But I do wonder why anyone recount such a story? It probably would be better if it went untold. If you want to change your behavior, do so. If not, it really doesn't matter to anyone either way.

It's all beyond my adult comprehension. I can't comprehend why anyone would want to go to this particular expensive, crowded, restaurant in Riverside, at an especially busy time? I have even more trouble comprehending why folks would want to engage in boorish behavior to get in? And finally, I can't find charm or humility anywhere in the story.

But that's just my take. You could have just sauntered in, given the hostess five hundred dollars and politely said, "Table please," with a smile. You'd have gotten your table, and you'd have no regrets about your behavior. Further, you might have conveyed the impression of wealth and class that you seem to want. What's five hundred bucks when you're going to spend a few hundred on a meal anyway?

But as I say, it really doesn't matter. Deleting the thread and forgetting about it might be best.

LOL Slip the hostess $500 for a table :D :D :D Oh man that made me spew coffee.

I'm no Don[n] I don't delete or lock threads.

Did I expect a pat on the back, nope
Did I expect some reasoned insightful responses that I can reflect on, yup
Did I know haters would come out of the woodwork to pile on, yup

Did I expect 5 pages, HELL NO :D

Dave Wright
12-27-2018, 12:28 PM
So, question remains, is it better to bluff one's way in, or bribe one's way in.

For the record, I'm a Boston cream pie, a walking contradiction.... But I knew that.

Most of us don't care for waiting in line, but we accept the tacit agreement that waiting in line in an orderly fashion, first come first served, is better than brawling for position and perhaps destroying whatever we're waiting for. Because we buy into this process, most of us have distain and little respect for those who butt into line.

Whether you bluff into line or bribe into line, both behaviors are boorish. I only suggested he might bribe or buy his way into line because doing so might be a little less ostentatious than the method that he used, and less noticeable by those dutifully waiting in line.

Dave Wright
12-27-2018, 12:41 PM
Did I know haters would come out of the woodwork to pile on, yup



Hey, that was always bobbys line!!

Point out his foibles (foibles that he went out of his way to post) and he'd go into the full "haters" routine. :D

John of Phoenix
12-27-2018, 12:45 PM
...to be honest I still can't see the level of outrage some are having. Because they expect better from you and are disappointed?

Once again, can you tell us a time when you used your super power for good?

leikec
12-27-2018, 12:47 PM
To further clarify my position ...

28664

Don't mess with the cake/pie continuum ... people will think you're flaky. In other words, if the toothpick comes out clean be happy. :D

Jeff C

amish rob
12-27-2018, 12:56 PM
Don't mess with the cake/pie continuum ... people will think you're flaky. In other words, if the toothpick comes out clean be happy. :D

Jeff C

Crumby joke. I may be being crusty, but I don’t want to layer round. Lattice move on to more filling pursuits. I fondit berry lacy to pecan pies this way. Also, no more cake speech!

Peace,
Simon (The Simple One)

beam reach
12-27-2018, 01:02 PM
Let them eat cake Rob !

Joe (SoCal)
12-27-2018, 01:16 PM
Because they expect better from you and are disappointed?

Once again, can you tell us a time when you used your super power for good?


Ahhh thats a good one, sorry I missed it. I actually use my "charm" way more for good than evil.

It's way more about being bold and charming, when you see a person being bullied or struggling and you "charm" the situation to their benefit.

I remember once I was invited to an EST meeting ( long story but there was a very attractive girl involved ) They had us in the room and they were going to town on the new recruits getting them to plunk down something like $1,500 to take some stupid program. I was quick to dispatch the hard sale and immediately became persona non grata. I saw them tag teaming an elderly woman. I overheard her explaining she was on a fixed income and just could not afford it. Tag team was not taking no for an answer, they were telling her to just write the check and she will find a way to pay for it. I sauntered over and broke the spell got into a conversation with all of them and then charmed the older woman and asked her about her grandkids, and Oh do you have any photos ;) yadda yadda yadda, the two salespeople walked away but kept an eye on their senior target. I whispered to her " You know you don't have to sign up, I didn't, and we could just leave now, do you want to go ? " She nodded yes, and I took her arm in arm and we walked passed the vultures and told them we're going now thanks ;)

Once we got out of there she thanked me and I said you will be fine.

So lots and lots of little things like that, almost daily.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-27-2018, 02:19 PM
I remember once I was invited to an EST meeting ( long story but there was a very attractive girl involved )...

Same experience with The Forum (Landmark), same reason :). Originated by same guy, same stuff.

Ricky Jay and James Randi, et al, devoted their lives to using their superpowers to debunking cons. Edit: Oh, Randi is still alive. Ricky Jay passed recently.

Garret
12-27-2018, 02:31 PM
I have friends who got fleeced by the Est folks. Luckily they could afford it, but, even with friends saying "Stop!", they poured $ in. I figured they moved on to selling used cars after Est went down - until the used car companies figured out how slimy they were.

Ian McColgin
12-27-2018, 04:16 PM
I am impressed with the number ardent Kantians we have here.

Phil Y
12-27-2018, 05:12 PM
Did y'all see the new way of Christmas shopping this year? Just follow a FedEx van around and pick up stuff they leave on people's porch. Now that's real charm. It's mostly insured so no harm no foul right? Right? Ummmmmm.

Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

beernd
12-27-2018, 05:21 PM
Did y'all see the new way of Christmas shopping this year? Just follow a FedEx van around and pick up stuff they leave on people's porch. Now that's real charm. It's mostly insured so no harm no foul right? Right? Ummmmmm.

Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

Don't forget to leave "Thank you Santa" notes

Dave Wright
12-27-2018, 05:29 PM
I am impressed with the number ardent Kantians we have here.

What did you expect? The situation of the OP is almost taylor made to demonstrate the legitimacy of Kant's views. Other situations perhaps not so much.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-27-2018, 06:42 PM
I am impressed with the number ardent Kantians we have here.

"What if everyone decided to <fill in the blank>?"
"Then I'd be a damned fool to think any different."

- Yossarian

Joe (SoCal)
12-27-2018, 06:42 PM
Did y'all see the new way of Christmas shopping this year? Just follow a FedEx van around and pick up stuff they leave on people's porch. Now that's real charm. It's mostly insured so no harm no foul right? Right? Ummmmmm.

Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

Glitter Charm :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoxhDk-hwuo&amp;t=590s

purri
12-27-2018, 06:47 PM
It's a New York thing...
I also wonder why the story was posted the first time. Was Joe expecting a lot of virtual pats on the back for the masterful way that he was able to lie to and scam Alicia? That was his Coup de grâce of the evening?

Dave Wright
12-27-2018, 06:49 PM
"What if everyone decided to <fill in the blank>?"
"Then I'd be a damned fool to think any different."

- Yossarian

Then sooner or later Yossarian (and many, many others) would be trampled to death by the flash mob that had decided to <fill in the blank>.

George Jung
12-27-2018, 06:52 PM
You bunch relate?
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=xhtqG2rM&id=E0F90279C48FC3EEBE724BC8322C2DA95AFB91D3&thid=OIP.xhtqG2rMWNCo0ddevLp9dwHaGu&q=far+side+‘we’re+not+getting+through+to+this+guy’&simid=608027501974389453&selectedIndex=0

https://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/209678_f520.jpg
(https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=xhtqG2rM&id=E0F90279C48FC3EEBE724BC8322C2DA95AFB91D3&thid=OIP.xhtqG2rMWNCo0ddevLp9dwHaGu&q=far+side+‘we’re+not+getting+through+to+this+guy’&simid=608027501974389453&selectedIndex=0)

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-27-2018, 07:09 PM
Then sooner or later Yossarian (and many, many others) would be trampled to death by the flash mob that had decided to <fill in the blank>.

Tragedy of the Commons, morally speaking.

S.V. Airlie
12-27-2018, 07:14 PM
All I can say is someone pulled this stunt on me, I wouldn't be amused. I feel sorry for the waitress who is probably thinking if I don't do what the man said, I might be fired. On the other hand, if I don't do what he told me to do, the people with real reservations might want me fired. A lose-lose situation based on a lie Joe and Renee helped!

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-27-2018, 07:14 PM
1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000685/?ref_=tt_ch) : Nately died a wealthy man, Yossarian. He had over sixty shares in the syndicate.
Yossarian (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000273/?ref_=tt_ch) : What difference does that make? He's dead.
1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000685/?ref_=tt_ch) : Then his family will get it.
Yossarian (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000273/?ref_=tt_ch) : He didn't have time to have a family.
1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000685/?ref_=tt_ch) : Then his parents will get it.
Yossarian (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000273/?ref_=tt_ch) : They don't need it, they're rich.
1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000685/?ref_=tt_ch) : Then they'll understand.

Dave Wright
12-27-2018, 07:27 PM
1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000685/?ref_=tt_ch) : Nately died a wealthy man, Yossarian. He had over sixty shares in the syndicate.
Yossarian (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000273/?ref_=tt_ch) : What difference does that make? He's dead.
1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000685/?ref_=tt_ch) : Then his family will get it.
Yossarian (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000273/?ref_=tt_ch) : He didn't have time to have a family.
1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000685/?ref_=tt_ch) : Then his parents will get it.
Yossarian (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000273/?ref_=tt_ch) : They don't need it, they're rich.
1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000685/?ref_=tt_ch) : Then they'll understand.

Eventually Milo remembers that he's a scum bucket, scalawag, and a ratfink.

Joe (SoCal)
12-27-2018, 07:33 PM
All I can say is someone pulled this stunt on me, I wouldn't be amused. I feel sorry for the waitress who is probably thinking if I don't do what the man said, I might be fired. On the other hand, if I don't do what he told me to do, the people with real reservations might want me fired. A lose-lose situation based on a lie Joe and Renee helped!

There was a couple of empty tables, no one was bumped, gag, :rolleyes: this gets a little tedious. What happened was some people who made reservations either failed to show or failed to call and cancel ( Rude IMHO ) . I ASKED so I know this is why we got the table.

So the waiter made out, the restaurant made out, and we made out. THERE WAS NO ONE WAITING FOR THE TABLE. We took the 5:00 first seating reservation by 7:00 the place was fully packed.

S.V. Airlie
12-27-2018, 07:39 PM
And how many people were there hoping to get one of those tables who also didn't have a reservation. Did you jump in front of them too or at least, take a number? Joe, I don't care what you did, you have to live with it, I just gave my opinion which I think you asked for. This is only my second post on this thread as well.

Joe (SoCal)
12-27-2018, 08:05 PM
And how many people were there hoping to get one of those tables who also didn't have a reservation. Did you jump in front of them too or at least, take a number? Joe, I don't care what you did, you have to live with it, I just gave my opinion which I think you asked for. This is only my second post on this thread as well.

NONE because they weren't offering it. They told everyone they were overbooked and had no tables. This is not rocket science, remember I've worked for decades in this industry I know how it works.

Ted Hoppe
12-27-2018, 08:12 PM
NONE because they weren't offering it. They told everyone they were overbooked and had no tables. This is not rocket science, remember I've worked for decades in this industry I know how it works.

We should factor that Joe lives in Southern California. There is always a table for a celebrity. I have no doubt it was released to Joe as he acted like he was someone deserving of the table. People in LaLa land work to rub with connected and somehow be part of the cult of fame. His charm and boldness made for the dynamic to happen there as well.

Ian McColgin
12-27-2018, 08:22 PM
We do have a lot of categorical imperium floating about here that might disapprove of Dad's gall to get hired by Pan American.

As the war wound down Dad had the points for discharge. About a week before he was due to separate Dad phoned Pan American corporate asking for Juan Trippe but was told Mr. Trippe would not be in till the next day. So early the next morning Dad put on his full dress uniform, by then he was a Colonel with a nice chest candy, and flew a C-47 - nice to high enough up to just take a plane - from his base in North Carolina to LaGuardia, arriving 0700. At Pan American corporate Dad explained that he was "Col. McColgin here to see Mr. Juan Trippe." Dad was ushered in without question and became the second post WWII hire. Dad was all of twenty five.

A little legerdemain, a bit of gall, some peacock display . . .

On his way to being a Sky God

https://scontent.fbos1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48976792_10213329707012286_3976136248526897152_o.j pg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent.fbos1-2.fna&oh=9effbf5831348f633dee13c510681203&oe=5C9FE401

Sorry about the fuzzy image. Took a photo of an old photo in less than perfect conditions. This is Dad at 25, new to Pan American, once a Colonel and now "Assistant Door Closer".

Dave Wright
12-27-2018, 08:25 PM
We should factor that Joe lives in Southern California. There is always a table for a celebrity. I have no doubt it was released to Joe as he acted like he was someone deserving of the table. People in LaLa land work to rub with connected and somehow be part of the cult of fame. His charm and boldness made for the dynamic to happen there as well.

Funny!

Well you''re a Californian Ted, I'm glad you said it rather than an outsider. It might have been taken as offensive coming from outside.

Anyway, now I get it, nothing more to say.

Make way! Make way for the dog dander magnate of Dana Point!

McMike
12-27-2018, 08:33 PM
Fro Joe, Sky, and Trump :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awY1MRlMKMc

Kevin G
12-27-2018, 08:35 PM
Joe: Maybe had you walked in with your "comfort animal", you would not have had to charm your way in.
They would have understood.

beernd
12-28-2018, 05:36 AM
There was a couple of empty tables, no one was bumped, gag, :rolleyes: this gets a little tedious. What happened was some people who made reservations either failed to show or failed to call and cancel ( Rude IMHO ) . I ASKED so I know this is why we got the table.

So the waiter made out, the restaurant made out, and we made out. THERE WAS NO ONE WAITING FOR THE TABLE. We took the 5:00 first seating reservation by 7:00 the place was fully packed.

No one was bumped?
What about that upset old lady who had a (yearly) reservation for 8 people?


OK so this is my Coup de grâce

There are about a million people lining up to see the light show at the Mission Inn. There is one very special restaurant, that has an amazing courtyard called the Spanish Patio At Mission Inn Restaurant. You need reservations MONTHS in advance for Tonight during the Festival of Lights. They have Über security at every entrance, the street is closed off, it's an absolute mob scene. People wait on line for hours just to walk past.

I walk up to the front gate, security stops us, I say we have reservations at the restaurant, they wave us through. I go to the hostess and go Foster party of 3 we have reservations for 4:00. They go we open at 5 that's impossible. I say well that's what "they" told us". Just as I'm explaining this an older lady says she had the SAME experience and they don't have her reservation for her and her family and they have a standing reservation every year. She is VERY upset. I remain calm and ask the hostess name. The hostess, Alicia is very upset and blaming the reservation desk saying they always screw up. I pay along, and say Alicia, see what you can do for us I would really appreciate it and I get how hard your job is. Renee plays bad cop and is WE HAD RESERVATIONS this is ridiculous. She asks for my cell phone # and will call us if she can get us in. Understand it's an absolute MOB SCENE.

So we go and take a 20 min hansom carriage ride around the block and just as we are getting off I get a text " Mr. Foster, Your Table Is Ready" :D :D :D The most coveted table in the courtyard - WITHOUT RESERVATIONS

SO THERE WAS SOME ONE WAITING FOR THAT TABLE.

Furthermore, the part of Renee playing bad cop
Renee plays bad cop and is WE HAD RESERVATIONS this is ridiculous. is that part of what you keep calling charm?

Must be my lack of reading comprehension again :rolleyes:

Joe (SoCal)
12-28-2018, 06:11 AM
No one was bumped?
What about that upset old lady who had a (yearly) reservation for 8 people?



SO THERE WAS SOME ONE WAITING FOR THAT TABLE.

Furthermore, the part of Renee playing bad cop is that part of what you keep calling charm?

Must be my lack of reading comprehension again :rolleyes:

Yes, it is your lack of reading comprehension again :D You tried this same theory on page 1 of this thread.

SO LET'S TRY THIS AGAIN SHE HAD A LARGE PARTY !!!! WE WERE SAT AT A 4 TOP !!! WE DID NOT TAKE ANYONE'S TABLE

You can try and try and try to spin it anyway you want to make it that someone was abused, but the facts are not so kind.

I get it people just don't like the lie and the way it went down. They want some form of ethic punishment, they want the moral universe to hold me accountable for my actions. Others just don't like me and never will and look at this thread as a wonderful opportunity to pile on. While I can see the outrage and like the OP of this thread have done some self reflection. I'm not about to twist what actually happened to make the situation worse.

No one's table was taken
No one was fired
They overbooked and someone didn't show ( Same thing happened last night at another restaurant ) We got the table, because I was "Charming", funny, nice and had a lot of balls to try it, OH AND I LIED ;)

beam reach
12-28-2018, 06:34 AM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28603&d=1545717164

I have a question Joe :
Did any of those people on right of the picture consist of a group of four or less ?
Did any of them have a genuine reservation ?

Joe (SoCal)
12-28-2018, 06:51 AM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28603&d=1545717164

I have a question Joe :
Did any of those people on right of the picture consist of a group of four or less ?
Did any of them have a genuine reservation ?


OMG GEEZUS this is seriously getting ridiculous the line on the right is for people taking the TOUR of the lights. When we left the restaurant we decided to go out that door .

I KNOW you so desperately want to have a victim. You NEED a victim, you need a worker to be fired, or some old lady that went hungry, something ANYTHING !!! No one other than the old lady who was there before we arrived at the hostess desk was waiting for a table. They had told security at the front that they were fully booked and there was no waitlist and if you did not have reservations you could not even go into the restaurant. They told everyone that reservations were booked months in advance SO AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN NO ONE WAS WAITING FOR TABLES.

WHAT HAPPENED was They overbooked and someone didn't show and we got the table. Why? because I was "Charming", funny, nice and had a lot of balls to try it, OH AND I LIED http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/smilies/icon12.png

beam reach
12-28-2018, 07:10 AM
You said it was a " MOB SCENE " , so I imagined it was a photo of " the mob ".
The photo does not make that clear.

If it makes you feel better , there is no victim required Joe.

I have often wondered what it`s like to live in a country with 350 + million , and the crowds you encounter.
I don`t think I would like it.

Joe (SoCal)
12-28-2018, 07:18 AM
It was a MOB Scene because of the Festival of Lights, not trying to get into the restaurant !!!



I have often wondered what it`s like to live in a country with 350 + million , and the crowds you encounter.
I don`t think I would like it.

I live Three miles from this, if that makes you feel better ;)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/SilveradoCanyon.JPG

beam reach
12-28-2018, 07:44 AM
http://www.portphillip.vic.gov.au/default/middle_park(1).JPG


I feel just fine Joe :d

Joe (SoCal)
12-28-2018, 07:52 AM
So do I, it's nice to have choices ;)

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/45171680_10214938344545564_3762599738814234624_n.j pg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=cf6650f3b3a9fbe2610bf1f6d4587025&oe=5C8C2315

Rum_Pirate
12-28-2018, 08:01 AM
OMG GEEZUS this is seriously getting ridiculous the line on the right is for people taking the TOUR of the lights. When we left the restaurant we decided to go out that door .

I KNOW you so desperately want to have a victim. You NEED a victim, you need a worker to be fired, or some old lady that went hungry, something ANYTHING !!! No one other than the old lady who was there before we arrived at the hostess desk was waiting for a table. They had told security at the front that they were fully booked and there was no waitlist and if you did not have reservations you could not even go into the restaurant. They told everyone that reservations were booked months in advance SO AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN NO ONE WAS WAITING FOR TABLES.

WHAT HAPPENED was They overbooked and someone didn't show and we got the table. Why? because I was "Charming", funny, nice and had a lot of balls to try it, OH AND I LIED ;)





BTW Do you criticize your President Trump for lying? :rolleyes:

Paul Pless
12-28-2018, 08:03 AM
OMG GEEZUS this is seriously getting ridiculous the line on the right is for people taking the TOUR of the lights. When we left the restaurant we decided to go out that door .

I KNOW you so desperately want to have a victim. You NEED a victim, you need a worker to be fired, or some old lady that went hungry, something ANYTHING !!! No one other than the old lady who was there before we arrived at the hostess desk was waiting for a table. They had told security at the front that they were fully booked and there was no waitlist and if you did not have reservations you could not even go into the restaurant. They told everyone that reservations were booked months in advance SO AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN NO ONE WAS WAITING FOR TABLES.

WHAT HAPPENED was They overbooked and someone didn't show and we got the table. Why? because I was "Charming", funny, nice and had a lot of balls to try it, OH AND I LIED ;)




security? at a restaurant?? in california???

not even in down river detroit have i seen such

Jim Mahan
12-28-2018, 08:56 AM
I got no business discussing this, so here goes.

Charm, chutzpah, balls, whatever. If the story you had concocted was a lie about your situation, instead of falsely implicating the reservation desk, finstance, "We just got in from Timbuktu, we haven't had anything since the armadillo stew—to die for—and my real mom's dying sister, the nun, also only has the one night in town before her cranial episiotomy in the morning, can't you just check to see if there is a no-show, while we just wait outside, signing autographs. It would mean so much to all the kids in the clinic and the tiny ones in the orphanage..."

beam reach
12-28-2018, 09:10 AM
I got no business discussing this, so here goes.

Charm, chutzpah, balls, whatever. If the story you had concocted was a lie about your situation, instead of falsely implicating the reservation desk, finstance, "We just got in from Timbuktu, we haven't had anything since the armadillo stew—to die for—and my real mom's dying sister, the nun, also only has the one night in town before her cranial episiotomy in the morning, can't you just check to see if there is a no-show, while we just wait outside, signing autographs. It would mean so much to all the kids in the clinic and the tiny ones in the orphanage..."


Well done sir !
I have to admit , that really is kind of funny !

George Jung
12-28-2018, 09:17 AM
... and I do believe your 'plan' would be successful, Jim.

But can you type slower? I'm trying to take notes...

Decourcy
12-28-2018, 09:36 AM
I got no business discussing this, so here goes.

Charm, chutzpah, balls, whatever. If the story you had concocted was a lie about your situation, instead of falsely implicating the reservation desk, finstance, "We just got in from Timbuktu, we haven't had anything since the armadillo stew—to die for—and my real mom's dying sister, the nun, also only has the one night in town before her cranial episiotomy in the morning, can't you just check to see if there is a no-show, while we just wait outside, signing autographs. It would mean so much to all the kids in the clinic and the tiny ones in the orphanage..."

Excellent. Perfect. Beautiful.

beernd
12-28-2018, 10:53 AM
Yes, it is your lack of reading comprehension again :D You tried this same theory on page 1 of this thread.

SO LET'S TRY THIS AGAIN SHE HAD A LARGE PARTY !!!! WE WERE SAT AT A 4 TOP !!! WE DID NOT TAKE ANYONE'S TABLE

You can try and try and try to spin it anyway you want to make it that someone was abused, but the facts are not so kind.

I get it people just don't like the lie and the way it went down. They want some form of ethic punishment, they want the moral universe to hold me accountable for my actions. Others just don't like me and never will and look at this thread as a wonderful opportunity to pile on. While I can see the outrage and like the OP of this thread have done some self reflection. I'm not about to twist what actually happened to make the situation worse.

No one's table was taken
No one was fired
They overbooked and someone didn't show ( Same thing happened last night at another restaurant ) We got the table, because I was "Charming", funny, nice and had a lot of balls to try it, OH AND I LIED ;)

In your initial post you said that it was her and her family, so all of the sudden it has grown into a large party, I love your creativity, I wonder how this story will be evolving.

And the question remains: do you think Renee playing bad cop is part of your charm.

And no I don't want any ethic punishment, you made that up all by yourself.

And you lied, and you're so proud of that, good for you and a happy new year.

Joe (SoCal)
12-28-2018, 11:07 AM
In your initial post you said that it was her and her family, so all of the sudden it has grown into a large party, I love your creativity, I wonder how this story will be evolving.

And the question remains: do you think Renee playing bad cop is part of your charm.

And no I don't want any ethic punishment, you made that up all by yourself.

And you lied, and you're so proud of that, good for you and a happy new year.

FROM MY FIRST POST :


FWIW we didn't happen to get the other woman's table because ours was a 4 top and she had a party of 8. Also it seems as though a few people didn't call to cancel their older reservations because there was a couple of other empty tables. In the end we filled in and paid for someone who was rude or forgot to cancel.



Do you know MATH ? Explain how you can fit 8 people at a 4 top !!!

Joe (SoCal)
12-28-2018, 11:08 AM
security? at a restaurant?? in california???

not even in down river detroit have i seen such

Riverside CA ;) There is roughness around the edges. That and the swarm of people for the Festival of Lights

amish rob
12-28-2018, 11:11 AM
security? at a restaurant?? in california???

not even in down river detroit have i seen such

Several here with valets and security. I know. But, it’s true.

Peace,
Robert

Ted Hoppe
12-28-2018, 11:30 AM
Can’t help but think Joe is another Chili Palmer. |;)


https://youtu.be/EoTEFOPwH9s

He even has a Renee as a costar!

beernd
12-28-2018, 12:03 PM
FROM MY FIRST POST :




Do you know MATH ? Explain how you can fit 8 people at a 4 top !!!

OK, now it is not a large party anymore but 8 people, and you never said that there was only one 4 top left. And now you're saying that there were a couple of other tables left, so maybe that older lady did get her reservations (two 4 tops = 8 seats)
You never mentioned that, and you got a table from a party of 4 that never showed up.

And it is not MATH but ARITHMATIC, anyway finally knowing all this, please tell me what you are so proud of.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-28-2018, 12:11 PM
We should factor that Joe lives in Southern California. There is always a table for a celebrity. I have no doubt it was released to Joe as he acted like he was someone deserving of the table. People in LaLa land work to rub with connected and somehow be part of the cult of fame. His charm and boldness made for the dynamic to happen there as well.

Joe does have a certain BDE.

Dave Wright
12-28-2018, 12:22 PM
Joe does have a certain BDE.

Gosh, you're getting into painful territory, but if you insist that it be explored: one might guess that begging for affirmation indicates LDE.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-28-2018, 12:29 PM
Gosh, you're getting into painful territory, but if you insist that it be explored: one might guess that begging for affirmation indicates LDE.

Ah, but with a simple google, you look like someone knowledgeable and authoritative and thus BDE. Dang, I should write ad copy.

Dave Wright
12-28-2018, 12:38 PM
Ah, but with a simple google, you look like someone knowledgeable and authoritative and thus BDE. Dang, I should write ad copy.

You brought up a term, now look at it's definition: "confidence without cockiness"

Have you ever seen anything but cockiness in the particular individual? If this is true, then does BDE really apply? If it doesn't, a simple choice in the same vein would be LDE.

beernd
12-28-2018, 12:40 PM
That would be arithmEtic.

Oh gawd I got caught on a speling error by Donn, shoot :d

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-28-2018, 12:54 PM
You brought up a term, now look at it's definition: "confidence without cockiness"

Have you ever seen anything but cockiness in the particular individual? If this is true, then does BDE really apply? If it doesn't, a simple choice in the same vein would be LDE.

I was speaking of the non-verbal aura, but you may have a point. His avatar looks BDE though.

Dave Wright
12-28-2018, 01:03 PM
I was speaking of the non-verbal aura, but you may have a point. His avatar looks BDE though.

Sorry, I took you literally, and I certainly didn't mean to harangue you. Hell, I don't even dislike Joe. I've always enjoyed his pictures and I'm impressed with his hard work and success in a new and exciting environment. Nevertheless, if I notice him spouting BS, and if I've nothing better to do, I just might comment on it, as in this particular case.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
12-28-2018, 01:09 PM
^^ I did not feel harangued. No foul :). But I still maintain I see a glow, like when you see Jesus in a slice of toast.

Garret
12-28-2018, 01:11 PM
Oh gawd I got caught on a speling error by Donn, shoot :d

Wonder how his Dutch spelling is? :)

Joe (SoCal)
12-28-2018, 02:01 PM
OK, now it is not a large party anymore but 8 people, and you never said that there was only one 4 top left. And now you're saying that there were a couple of other tables left, so maybe that older lady did get her reservations (two 4 tops = 8 seats)
You never mentioned that, and you got a table from a party of 4 that never showed up.

And it is not MATH but ARITHMATIC, anyway finally knowing all this, please tell me what you are so proud of.

OK because you consistently need specific information. The Spanish Courtyard section, where we were sat ONLY has two tops and 4 tops there is one group table and that was occupied by a reservation. Because of the layout of the courtyard they do not put tables together. In the main section of the restraunt they have way more flexibility and it is far larger.

Nice try but Keep Spinning :D

beernd
12-28-2018, 02:03 PM
OK because you consistently need specific information. The Spanish Courtyard section, where we were sat ONLY has two tops and 4 tops there is one group table and that was occupied by a reservation. Because of the layout of the courtyard they do not put tables together.

Nice try but Keep Spinning :D

Then why don't you tell it as it is from the get go.

Canoeyawl
12-28-2018, 02:16 PM
Oh gawd I got caught on a speling error by Donn, shoot :d

That's good! It means your a liberal...

You can put another notch in you're pencil.

Garret
12-28-2018, 02:40 PM
That's good! It means your a liberal...

You can put another notch in you're pencil.

I saw what you did there. Sneaky! :)

B_B
12-28-2018, 04:14 PM
Wonder how his Dutch spelling is? :)
His last name is Westerveldt or some such, pretty Dutchish, and he might've shown some 'Dutch courage' here and there, so Imma gonna guess its probably better than you think! ;)

beernd
12-28-2018, 04:57 PM
Het is best goed, maar mijn familie komt uit Meppel en ik heb Google Translate om te helpen.

DIE is best goed. DE spelling.

Breakaway
12-28-2018, 05:34 PM
His last name is Westerveldt or some such, pretty Dutchish, and he might've shown some 'Dutch courage' here and there, so Imma gonna guess its probably better than you think! ;)

There's a whole enclave of waterman Dutch living on Long Island, especially in a burg named, West Sayville. We even have a name for them: West Sayville Dutch.

Kevin

S.V. Airlie
12-28-2018, 05:38 PM
There's a whole enclave of waterman Dutch living on Long Island, especially in a burg named, West Sayville. We even have a name for them: West Sayville Dutch.

KevinWell, the Dutch were there first before taken over by the English!

Trivia but fitting! James F. Cooper first introduced Santa Claus to the general public after stealing if from the Dutch in the first chapter of the Pioneers. 1823! Just for kicks!

Stiletto
12-28-2018, 05:42 PM
Donn is Dutch?

That's an old mystery solved!;)

Canoeyawl
12-28-2018, 05:48 PM
Donn is Dutch?

That's an old mystery solved!;)

"Was" Dutch, he's just another child of immigrants now.

Joe (SoCal)
12-28-2018, 05:57 PM
Then why don't you tell it as it is from the get go.

What part of WE DIDN'T TAKE ANYONE'S TABLE from my opening post did you just choose to ignore ? :D

beernd
12-28-2018, 05:57 PM
Well, the Dutch were there first before taken over by the English!

Trivia but fitting! James F. Cooper first introduced Santa Claus to the general public after stealing if from the Dutch in the first chapter of the Pioneers. 1823! Just for kicks!

The Dutch Saint Nikolaas is the saint patron of all seafaring people, so you go mock him at your own risk and peril :rolleyes:

beernd
12-28-2018, 05:59 PM
What part of WE DIDN'T TAKE ANYONE'S TABLE from my opening post did you just choose to ignore ? :D

No I didn't :d

You are the gratest charmer on earth!

Happy now?

S.V. Airlie
12-28-2018, 06:02 PM
The Dutch Saint Nikolaas is the saint patron of all seafaring people, so you go mock him at your own risk and peril :rolleyes:If you read my post, JFCooper introduced him to the general public and this was penned by a reputable historian who has or does know pretty much everything about James F. Cooper that exists. Take it up with him, I'm just the messenger.

beernd
12-28-2018, 06:08 PM
If you read my post, JFCooper introduced him to the general public and this was penned by a reputable historian who has or does know pretty much everything about James F. Cooper that exists. Take it up with him, I'm just the messenger.
I did not mean any harm, I was kind of joking because nobody (including the Dutch) seams to know his true patronage.
No hard feelings I hope.

Joe (SoCal)
12-28-2018, 06:08 PM
No I didn't :d

You are the gratest charmer on earth!

Happy now?

Along with math learning to spell might be helpful it you were to become great at anything ;)

I'm happy now, mostly because I just came home from driving to and from LAX

beernd
12-28-2018, 06:13 PM
Along with math learning to spell might be helpful it you were to become great at anything ;)

I'm happy now, mostly because I just came home from driving to and from LAX

You are such a great guy Joe you sure are the gratest guy on earth, reading comprehension does help :d

B_B
12-28-2018, 09:52 PM
...
You are the gratest charmer on earth!
...
Right in so many ways :D

JTA
12-28-2018, 09:56 PM
Am I required to read all 244 post before I state my opinion?

Ian McColgin
12-28-2018, 10:09 PM
Around here, you're not even required to think.

beam reach
12-28-2018, 10:10 PM
Am I required to read all 244 post before I state my opinion?

In minute detail ! :d

Stiletto
12-29-2018, 09:10 PM
Charm vs Humility.
Joe, you score highly on the charm scale. As for humility, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack!;)

oznabrag
12-29-2018, 10:18 PM
Around here, you're not even required to think.

Aye, an' it's the small blessings that make the main.