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PeterSibley
12-20-2018, 12:24 AM
Dominionism?
https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-the-long-term-goal-of-christians-in-politics-should-be-to-gain-exclusive-control-over-gary-north-80-45-07.jpg

https://crookedcrosses.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/dominion.jpg

https://modres.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/georgegrant.jpg

PeterSibley
12-20-2018, 12:27 AM
It appears they choose to ignore the First Amendment.

Jim Bow
12-20-2018, 12:33 AM
Jesus Christ, they read "The Handmaid's Tale".

Jimmy W
12-20-2018, 12:41 AM
I don't think they will be all that successful, but they will keep trying. Especially here in the bible belt.

BrianY
12-20-2018, 12:50 AM
I'm not a pro-gun kinda guy, but if ever there was just cause to take up arms to defend against an internal enemy bent on destroying this nation, it would be the fight against these people. I hope it will never come to that.

Art Haberland
12-20-2018, 01:17 AM
certainly does not bode well for those of us who are not Christian, does it?

gypsie
12-20-2018, 01:20 AM
If he was a Muslim cleric he'd be behind bars now.

Paul Pless
12-20-2018, 01:34 AM
A heartbeat away. . .

28317

purri
12-20-2018, 02:08 AM
^as was the dialogue in the TV series Claudius the God : "Now let all the poisons hatch out"

beam reach
12-20-2018, 06:16 AM
Dominionism?
https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-the-long-term-goal-of-christians-in-politics-should-be-to-gain-exclusive-control-over-gary-north-80-45-07.jpg

https://crookedcrosses.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/dominion.jpg

https://modres.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/georgegrant.jpg


Is the Australian Christian Lobby dominionist?


Ibrahim Siddiq-Conlon is a religious extremist. Let's not mince words - he's a nutter. Conlon wants Australia to become an Islamic nation, ruled by sharia law. In an interview with the Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/full-bred-aussie-with-a-longing-for-sharia-law/story-e6frg6z6-1225991941740) in January 2011, he said:
"One day Australia will be ruled by sharia, no doubt ... That is why non-Muslims are worried, because they know one day they won't be able to drink their beer, they won't be able to eat their pork and they won't be able to do their homosexual acts, because one day they know they will be controlled."



n November 2003 the National Alliance of Christian Leaders (http://nacl.com.au/nacl/index.php?option=com_content?view=article?id=62:20 04-speakers?catid=26:previous-national-assemblies?itemid=49) (NACL) held a summit to "develop a strategic blueprint for a discipled Australia." According to Helen Woodall (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:muqh5fqvx24j:unbelief.org/articles/a-christian-worldview/+%22unity+in+truth%3b+recognition+of+christ%e2%80% 99s%22?cd=1?hl=en?ct=clnk?gl=au), the editor of New Life Christian Newspaper, the goals agreed upon included:
"... unity in truth; recognition of Christ's authority in the church, family, individual and government; ... legislature to force Christian values; ... the kingdom permeating the structures of society; biblical government."
How is this any different from Siddiq-Conlon's extremist agenda?
Welcome to the wacky world of Christian dominionism - a movement which aims to see the breakdown of secular society and all the nations of the earth ruled by Biblical law.


They say when the United States sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold. And so it is with dominionism. Now an international movement, dominionism is thriving in Australia.
From local parents and citizens associations to regional councils, from our previously secular state schools to state government departments and even within Parliament House, Canberra, this particular clique of evangelical Christian extremists is working quietly but assiduously to tear down the division between church and state, subvert secularism and reclaim this nation for Jesus.
But, is there sufficient evidence to suggest that the Australian Christian Lobby (ACL) is at the forefront of this ideological holy war?
In order to achieve their aim, dominionists plan to infiltrate, influence and eventually take over seven key spheres of society: business, government (including the military and the law), media, arts and entertainment, education, the family and religion.

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/is-the-australian-christian-lobby-dominionist/10101124

PeterSibley
12-20-2018, 06:20 AM
They certainly have a hold on Government right now.

Paul Pless
12-20-2018, 06:38 AM
They certainly have a hold on Government right now.so, here in the u.s. the right, red republicans cannot win on the national level without pandering to the evangelical block; so what's your excuse???

Nicholas Scheuer
12-20-2018, 06:51 AM
They sound a lot like radical Muslims, eh? The morons who buy this BS are the same morons who worship Trump.

Paul Pless
12-20-2018, 06:57 AM
hypocritical morons

beam reach
12-20-2018, 07:20 AM
so, here in the u.s. the right, red republicans cannot win on the national level without pandering to the evangelical block; so what's your excuse???

Many of the consevative voters here are not the sharpest tools in the shed.

Not an excuse , but fact , none the less.

beam reach
12-20-2018, 07:25 AM
They certainly have a hold on Government right now.


Not for much longer.
Not even with a good measure of " divine " intervention.

donsmarine
12-20-2018, 07:55 AM
They sound a lot like radical Muslims, eh? The morons who buy this BS are the same morons who worship Trump. I sure hope you haven't multiplied yet

SMARTINSEN
12-20-2018, 08:08 AM
I do not think so, Peter. Evangelical Christianity is on the decline in this country, espescially with younger generations. Keith (because of course it was Keith) displayed a graph showing this not very long ago.

I am more worried about those that worship at the the alter of the Almighty Dollar.

Keith Wilson
12-20-2018, 08:40 AM
I dunno - while Christian dominionism really is much like the Taliban carrying a cross, there aren't many of them. We hove lots of wackos of all kinds, abut it's a big country, plenty of room as long as they don't reach critical mass. They may have some influence in parts of the ex-Confederacy where a large percentage of the white population is evangelical, but not that much. I'm far more worried about less extreme Christian fundamentalists. But this seems like more problem that's shrinking with time.

https://religionnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/webCHART-2-Generational-Shift-in-Religious-Identity-771x643.jpgYeah, people tend to get more religious as they get older, but this shift is real. Religion, even silly destructive religion, is shrinking.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/09/06/17/43F9D2A000000578-4858552-image-a-16_1504714267883.jpg

TomF
12-20-2018, 08:48 AM
certainly does not bode well for those of us who are not Christian, does it?
Nor for those of us who genuinely attempt to be. This is not Christianity as Jesus would recognize it.

leikec
12-20-2018, 08:50 AM
Nor for those of us who genuinely attempt to be. This is not Christianity as Jesus would recognize it.

Exactly.

Jeff C

SMARTINSEN
12-20-2018, 08:57 AM
It is like saying beetlejuice 3 times. :D

Art Haberland
12-20-2018, 10:15 AM
They sound a lot like radical Muslims, eh? The morons who buy this BS are the same morons who worship Trump.

And yet they howl against Sharia law... without realizing they are packing their own version

Osborne Russell
12-20-2018, 10:44 AM
To answer the question, no, it's not the next big thing. It was a thing before the Pilgrims left England. The point at which it was the next big thing was probably when Raleigh and his pals decided to use the religion angle to raise money for Roanoke, Jamestown, etc.

It was darn near the first thing.

Flying Orca
12-20-2018, 11:51 AM
And yet they howl against Sharia law... without realizing they are packing their own version

Oh, they realize it. They just don't want someone else's version. Miserable turds, all.

Ron Williamson
12-20-2018, 12:20 PM
A heartbeat away. . .

28317

Ain't this sorta thing aginst God's law?
Frikkin'hypocritical sodomites.
R

WX
12-20-2018, 03:11 PM
Anyone pick up on the franchise bit?

Gerarddm
12-20-2018, 03:24 PM
If there was a benign deity that idiot would have had a fatal heart attack by now.

Phil Y
12-20-2018, 03:43 PM
hypocritical moronsO&O. Just sayin.

Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

john welsford
12-20-2018, 03:43 PM
Dominionism?
https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-the-long-term-goal-of-christians-in-politics-should-be-to-gain-exclusive-control-over-gary-north-80-45-07.jpg

https://crookedcrosses.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/dominion.jpg

https://modres.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/georgegrant.jpg

And people say that Muslim fundamentalists are dangerous?

John Welsford

Flying Orca
12-20-2018, 04:09 PM
For harboring sheer hatred, these Dominionists can't even compete with NeverTrumpers in The Bilge and elsewhere....

Horse... feathers. Those opposed to Trump don't wish to remove the constitutional rights of those with whom they disagree; they just think they're wrong, and possibly ignorant and stupid. Dominionists actually want to destroy the USA as it exists, doing away with people's constitutional rights, and establish a theocracy.

Maybe you should crawl back under your rock.

Flying Orca
12-20-2018, 04:43 PM
Sure; I'm concerned about it. I don't live in the USA anymore, but this kind of evangelical nutbaggery rubs off on Canadians, too. I retain affection for the good intentions of the American experiment, and for the people who have to live within it, and I don't wish to see either compromised by roughshod "Christians". Christianity has too much influence in the USA already.

Keith Wilson
12-20-2018, 04:45 PM
Is there anyone posting on this thread who is actually concerned about this "threat"?Not yet. See #19.

johnw
12-20-2018, 05:03 PM
Anyone pick up on the franchise bit?
I think we all did.

These folks would like to take over, but as long as we remain a democracy, they won't. Thus their interest in limiting the franchise.

john welsford
12-20-2018, 05:04 PM
My own thoughts, having watched the statistics that show the steady decline in evangelical Christian church membership, and watching too the marked reduction in church affiliation among the young, is that, like the financial beneficiaries of the oil and coal industries, they're fighting a rearguard action. Going down steadily, but making a lot of noise as they go.

John Welsford

Keith Wilson
12-20-2018, 05:08 PM
. . . they're fighting a rearguard action. Going down steadily, but making a lot of noise as they go.I think this describes much of the current US right wing.

Hallam
12-20-2018, 05:16 PM
Seen in the broader context of a drift in the direction of totalitarian thinking, I am actually concerned about this expression of one minority group of extremists Imposing their will on the the majority through the process of hijacking democracy. To a large extent democracy has already been hijacked by industry and pressure group lobbyists who purchase more bang for their buck in the one person one vote market place. With technology now allowing government scrutiny of the individual to a greater extent than we have ever seen, if checks and balances are ineffective it’s only a matter Of time before one group of Facist thinking control freaks impose their will on the nation. Mix religion with fascism and you have just about the most powerful tool to co-opt a large group of the voting public whose ability to critique is limited. Add the cultlike dynamic of religious totalitarianism with its thinking outside the excepted norms not allowed, The danger of a totalaterian government is further increased.

Keith Wilson
12-20-2018, 05:22 PM
We're doomed, doomed, doomed!Well, one thing we know for sure is that nobody gets out of here alive. :D


Why are you far more worried about less extreme Christian fundamentalists? And ... who are they?Because there are enough of them to make a difference. Dominionists are fringe wackos. Who they are - well, 'fundamentalists' is kind of an ill-defined term. It originally referenced a series of publications entitled 'The Fundamentals' by the Bible Institute of Los Angeles in the early 20th century - a defense of biblical literalism against the 'higher criticism' and modern science - but that was a good long while ago. (Wikipedia link about The Fundamentals here if you're interested. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fundamentals)) And defining exactly who's included and who isn't might be a futile exercise. But it's what's normally called 'White Evangelical Protestantism' as opposed to the mainline Protestant churches, the heirs of the Second Great Awakening, the Southern Baptists and Missouri Synod Lutherans, as opposed to the ELCA and American Baptists.

Although you will probably disagree, I think this kind of religion is a very pernicious social influence in the US today, supporting all kinds of despicable things that decrease people's well-being and increase suffering. White folks who identify themselves as Evangelical also constitute Mr. Trump's only remaining solid base of support.

https://kwtri4b8r0ep8ho61118ipob-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2018-white-voters.png

purri
12-20-2018, 05:36 PM
^ US has no left wing.

Chris Smith porter maine
12-20-2018, 05:41 PM
The how do you know and the left might possibly be worse, gotcha.

LeeG
12-20-2018, 05:43 PM
no Dominionism is not ďthe next threatĒ, itís in a basket of quirky indigenous beliefs, thatís all.

Keith Wilson
12-20-2018, 05:54 PM
And I'll bet you think it is much, much worse than the current US left wing.Of course. You may agree with one or the other, but it's an indisputable fact that for the past 30 years the US right wing has gotten farther and farther right, while with only a few exceptions, the positions of the left have moved little, if at all. The US left, by the standards of most of the developed world, is very centrist. Some would say center-right, although I wouldn't go that far.

Chris249
12-20-2018, 06:04 PM
so, here in the u.s. the right, red republicans cannot win on the national level without pandering to the evangelical block; so what's your excuse???

Our excuse is that we've already seen through their agenda and they are going to lose political power in a thorough thrashing at the next election.

Hallam
12-20-2018, 06:21 PM
We're doomed, doomed, doomed!

........whatever.

Old Dryfoot
12-20-2018, 06:33 PM
Oh, puh-leeze.

https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-the-long-term-goal-of-christians-in-politics-should-be-to-gain-exclusive-control-over-gary-north-80-45-07.jpg

S.V. Airlie
12-20-2018, 06:38 PM
What things?You should know! Aren't you one?Read the quotes above for starters sober. Look at what they are preaching to the faithful.

WX
12-20-2018, 06:38 PM
And I'll bet you think it is much, much worse than the current US left wing.
US left wing, do they actually exist?

WX
12-20-2018, 06:41 PM
Are you seriously concerned about this? Most of the Christians I know would have no part of it. I doubt a lot of them have ever even heard of Gary North.
When I think franchise I tend to think of KFC, not a political party...or am I reading this wrong?

WX
12-20-2018, 06:42 PM
I guess you haven't heard of Democratic Socialists. There are quite a few holding office on Capitol Hill. The US has been jerked so far left since WWII it is hardly recognizable.
Obviously not enough of them.

Old Dryfoot
12-20-2018, 06:45 PM
Are you seriously concerned about this? Most of the Christians I know would have no part of it. I doubt a lot of them have ever even heard of Gary North.

It's the "most" part that gets my attention.

Religion and government need to be separate from one another. No exceptions.

Arizona Bay
12-20-2018, 06:55 PM
So no Christian can serve in government? Some people would interpret your comment that way.

Only stupid people...

Art Haberland
12-20-2018, 06:56 PM
LOL! Democratic Socialists in Congress? Planned Parenthood? The whole leftist mainstream media (you think the New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, NBC, CBS, PBS are rightwing?). Hollywood? Higher education, where 11 of 12 professors are leftists? Have you been off-planet the past few decades?

Compared to the rest of the world, all politics in the US is rightwing. Democrats are Right Centre and Republicans are far right.

purri
12-20-2018, 06:57 PM
I live in OZ, in comparison a raving lunatic left wing nation, and that's our right wing government. You obviously live in a thought bubble world.
LOL! Democratic Socialists in Congress? Planned Parenthood? The whole leftist mainstream media (you think the New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, NBC, CBS, PBS are rightwing?). Hollywood? Higher education, where 11 of 12 professors are leftists? Have you been off-planet the past few decades?

leikec
12-20-2018, 07:06 PM
Everybody and everything is leftist when you're teetering out of control on the far right edge.

Jeff C

Old Dryfoot
12-20-2018, 07:08 PM
So no Christian can serve in government? Some people would interpret your comment that way.

Not what I said.

leikec
12-20-2018, 07:18 PM
Do you mean to say you think the groups and entities i listed above are RIGHT WING?

For the sake of your fan base, I hope you write better than you read.

Jeff C

WX
12-20-2018, 07:39 PM
You must be reading it wrong. My comment doesn't have "franchise" in it.
I was referring to the Gary North quote.
planned parenthood is a problem for you?

Flying Orca
12-20-2018, 07:49 PM
Yeah, that's why there are so many problems in the rest of the world.

I think you'll find that the USA's performance on quality-of-life metrics and other indices of national success like health and education is substantially lower than that of quite a few other nations, including the one I have chosen over the USA... and every single one of them is more socialist (and arguably more democratic!) than the USA.

Art Haberland
12-20-2018, 08:01 PM
Everybody and everything is leftist when you're teetering out of control on the far right edge.

Jeff C

Far too true. When you consider your fellow Republicans to be leftist (RINO) then you might want to consider stepping back, that next one could be a doozy

WX
12-20-2018, 08:10 PM
Yeah, that's why there are so many problems in the rest of the world.
You need to get out more, Fox News is rotting your brain.

Art Haberland
12-20-2018, 08:13 PM
You need to get out more, Fox News is rotting your brain.

Sobell is on a roll tonight.

Osborne Russell
12-20-2018, 08:15 PM
Not what I said.


Yes but it's what she wishes you'd said, don't you see.

Art Haberland
12-20-2018, 08:23 PM
So no Christian can serve in government? Some people would interpret your comment that way.

by your way of thinking on the subject. neither would Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, or Pagans. The only people who would be able to serve in government would be atheists... which to be honest, might not be a bad idea.

skuthorp
12-21-2018, 12:47 AM
You must be reading it wrong. My comment doesn't have "franchise" in it.
All organised religions and sects are 'franchises'' and unauthorised ones at that.

The organisations referred to in the Op Ed pass that test, creations of man for power purposes, and not provable god in sight. Of course there may be one, but it's not what any of our cults are about.

purri
12-21-2018, 01:10 AM
I perceive that you are promoter of exceptionalism rather than what most of the lesser and well developed nations agree that les systemes communards are a better developed option to maximise the greater social/ national good. Ever read Das Kapital?
I live in the real world. Why do you find it necessary to marginalize, or to try to marginalize, people who see things differently than you?

purri
12-21-2018, 01:24 AM
Cough. The far greater % of the world represents a far greater proportion of generic charity than your mingining quasi philosophical minority could ever hope to muster. Now back to your bunker...
I live in the real world. Why do you find it necessary to marginalize, or to try to marginalize, people who see things differently than you?

johnw
12-21-2018, 01:52 AM
Not what I said.
Sobell doesn't understand what separation of church and state is, or the history that made it seem necessary. To you and me, separation of church and state means there is no religious test allowed for public office. To Sobell, the notion that there would be not religious test is somehow oppression. Or something. I don't think there's anything you our I would call logic behind the claim.

At least, not logic as we know it (cue spooky science fiction music played on a theremin.)

PeterSibley
12-21-2018, 02:06 AM
Christian organisations here have spent a long time infiltrating the ruling party and have their members in powerful positions now but thaT may change dramatically with the next election as they look like being tossed.

john welsford
12-21-2018, 04:28 AM
LOL! Democratic Socialists in Congress? Planned Parenthood? The whole leftist mainstream media (you think the New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, NBC, CBS, PBS are rightwing?). Hollywood? Higher education, where 11 of 12 professors are leftists? Have you been off-planet the past few decades?

Teachers, and higher education professors ( I was one, or at least a "senior tutor") are not there to make a fortune, they don't. They're there to teach, they almost invariably enter the profession to improve the life prospects of their students, and they almost all of them see a socialist agenda as helping that cause. Nurses and Doctors, any of the "caring professions" are the same. Its always been so, and always will. Its not "damaged" any society so far, and is unlikely to do so in the future.

There is a saying, that as a university student you're really odd if you're a conservative, but as a graduate of any but those caring professions, by the time you're 45, you're unusual if you're not a conservative. But I'd point out that many countries start well to the left of what conservative America would consider normal. And no, those countries are not like Venezuela where corruption and venal incompetence is to blame rather than any particular political philosophy.

By the standards of my own country I am slightly right wing, not so much that I'd vote party if I don't like what they're doing, but from where I am some of your politicians make Ghengis Khan look liberal.

John Welsford

beam reach
12-21-2018, 04:35 AM
Teachers, and higher education professors ( I was one, or at least a "senior tutor") are not there to make a fortune, they don't. They're there to teach, they almost invariably enter the profession to improve the life prospects of their students, and they almost all of them see a socialist agenda as helping that cause. Nurses and Doctors, any of the "caring professions" are the same. Its always been so, and always will. Its not "damaged" any society so far, and is unlikely to do so in the future.

There is a saying, that as a university student you're really odd if you're a conservative, but as a graduate of any but those caring professions, by the time you're 45, you're unusual if you're not a conservative. But I'd point out that many countries start well to the left of what conservative America would consider normal. And no, those countries are not like Venezuela where corruption and venal incompetence is to blame rather than any particular political philosophy.

By the standards of my own country I am slightly right wing, not so much that I'd vote party if I don't like what they're doing, but from where I am some of your politicians make Ghengis Khan look liberal.

John Welsford

Very well said John !

john welsford
12-21-2018, 04:38 AM
Or, it could be that the forces of the left that set their sites on the USA after WWII have been successful in alienating young Americans from their families, communities and churches, which was what they intended.

New Zealand is, according to reputable sources, the least religious country on the planet. And yet our divorce rate is no worse than others, our families are as stable, and oddly enough we have possibly the highest degree of religious freedom. Religion causes very little division among our people, my grocer is Hindu, my dentist a Muslim woman, (she has a great store of really good jokes) we've a Buddhist family two doors down, and I've no idea what faith the Somali family a couple of doors further down follow. The thing is, it doesn't matter. We get along.
We do have our problems, but in comparison to many places, I'm sure if you rush off and hunt on line you'll find lots of examples, but in comparison to most countries our problems are relatively minor.
There is no reason why other countries cant do the same.


John Welsford

Chris249
12-21-2018, 05:18 AM
Why do you think there should be socialists in our government? You want them to change the country into what it was never intended to be? Venezuela? All the socialist countries in Europe that are imploding now?

Imploding? Which ones?

New Zealand, Canada and Australia are all "socialist" compared to the USA, and none of them are imploding. Don't be such a bigot as to imagine that so many other countries get it wrong.

PeterSibley
12-21-2018, 05:25 AM
Ideological blinders are strong on this one, she only sees what she has been told to see.

S.V. Airlie
12-21-2018, 08:12 AM
Insufferably elitist and intolerant comment,made by one who cannot know what he is claiming. Nobody tells me what to see.I think FOXNEWS does!

beam reach
12-21-2018, 08:15 AM
Why do you think there should be socialists in our government? You want them to change the country into what it was never intended to be? Venezuela? All the socialist countries in Europe that are imploding now?



https://youtu.be/pZvAvNJL-gE

Hardly Venezuela Sobell.

Chris Smith porter maine
12-21-2018, 08:16 AM
The ones with oppressive taxation, the ones whose people's impulse toward freedom (Brexit) is resisted and oppressed by the EU, the ones giving rise to yellow vest resistance, the ones running out of other people's money, the ones who are usurping parental control over children's medical care, dooming some kids to die from denied treatment.... Ones like that.

Ah so you got nothing.

Flying Orca
12-21-2018, 08:18 AM
Ah so you got nothing.

Except fertilizer.

Flying Orca
12-21-2018, 08:29 AM
it is soooo easy to prevent pregnancy, there need be no unwanted pregnancies

The number of unwanted pregnancies would suggest that it's not as easy as you think.


Abortion is anti-human. It is the top of the slippery slope leading to infanticide for living children, euthanasia for "not perfect" people of any age, and old people just because they're considered worthless, non-productive and users of precious resources.

More fertilizer. Canada and many other first-world nations have liberal abortion policies (Canada has no abortion laws at all) and have no problems with infanticide or involuntary euthanasia.

It's sad that you feel the need to make sh|t up rather than admit that your opinions are unsupported by evidence.

S.V. Airlie
12-21-2018, 08:33 AM
It is an abomination. Unborn babies killed, their body parts sold. Yea, I have a problem with that. At this point, it is soooo easy to prevent pregnancy, there need be no unwanted pregnancies... but there are millions of them. harvested like animals, and making some folks lots and lots of money.

Abortion is anti-human. It is the top of the slippery slope leading to infanticide for living children, euthanasia for "not perfect" people of any age, and old people just because they're considered worthless, non-productive and users of precious resources.Question sober, would you be willing to adopt or pay for those children after they were born, say with welfare disbursements or increased programs to feed the poor and the kids. Would you be willing to educate them beyond high school, feed and clothe them? In the best of circumstances, it costs more than 250 grand to raise a child from birth to say 18 including college. A poor family wouldn't need as much or could maybe get by with less but, is that fair? So you complain about abortions fine, do you even think beyond a child's birth and what is going to happen to a child then.Do you complain about that? No, I doubt whether you do.

Ed Harrow
12-21-2018, 08:37 AM
Extraordinary, how you can see but not see. What I posted isn't "nothing."

"We are but shrubs, no cedars we."

S.V. Airlie
12-21-2018, 09:03 AM
I suspect you are too old to get pregnant and umm, your health sobell. There are some clinics in Fla. yes, but, that costs money probably which brings up insurance which brings up even whether medical insurance pays for birth control. Then we have another problem, I suspect most who want, no need an abortion are in the lower economic brackets as in poor which wipes out a lot of sources for abortions they have available. Then, we have PP! the devils, the Republicans are trying their hardest to get rid of this organization; closing down clinic, over regulations put on them, and cutting their funding. Bottom line, an abortion for you, a white woman, financially okay, middle aged probably would have no trouble getting one. Heck, a lot of insurance (health) don't cover meds to prevent pregnancy.

beam reach
12-21-2018, 09:05 AM
No, it's because many women don't go to the very small bother it takes to prevent pregnancy -- "I can always get an abortion."



I would suggest that the vast majority of women ( the world over ) would not consider abortion as the frivolous , casual , almost incidental decision you make it out to be .

Most women in such unfortunate circumstances would agree that it was one of the most difficult decisions of their lives.

TomF
12-21-2018, 09:06 AM
I have never met a woman who had an abortion who treated it cavalierly. Most I know, even those who have had more than one, describe deep angst and regret at ever being in the situation, however they presently feel about whether they made the correct choice to abort.

Flying Orca
12-21-2018, 09:27 AM
No, it's because many women don't go to the very small bother it takes to prevent pregnancy -- "I can always get an abortion."

Which suggests that it is not as easy for them as you think.

It's always tempting to think that others are as together as you are, but it's often a mistake.


It is possible, even likely, that things are going on in Canada you don't know about. They're not going to hold celebrations and rallies and parades celebrating infanticide and involuntary euthanasia. But if you google that term and add "Canada" you might learn some eye-opening things.

Assertions without evidence may be dismissed without a second thought.


Legal abortion cheapens all human life.

Nah, it doesn't. It just values the lives of people more than the lives of a mass of cells that have the potential to be people. But there's nothing particularly special about human life; in fact, we have rather too much of it at the moment.

S.V. Airlie
12-21-2018, 09:48 AM
Sobell, Do you ever even wonder what happens to these kids when they are born to a mother that didn't want them or is what happens to them is of no concern to you at all?

Art Haberland
12-21-2018, 09:58 AM
I have never met a woman who had an abortion who treated it cavalierly. Most I know, even those who have had more than one, describe deep angst and regret at ever being in the situation, however they presently feel about whether they made the correct choice to abort.

Same here. I know a few women who have had them, those that have talked about it make it quite clear they will wonder forever what the child would have been like

oznabrag
12-21-2018, 10:42 AM
The ones with oppressive taxation, the ones whose people's impulse toward freedom (Brexit) is resisted and oppressed by the EU, the ones giving rise to yellow vest resistance, the ones running out of other people's money, the ones who are usurping parental control over children's medical care, dooming some kids to die from denied treatment.... Ones like that.

Soooo . . . none of them, then?

CWSmith
12-21-2018, 10:51 AM
I dated a fundamentalist Baptist for about 5 months in high school. She decided I was not a Christian (I'm Catholic - you decide).

She was freakin' nuts!

Separation of church and state is not nearly strong enough in this country.

Ian McColgin
12-22-2018, 07:27 AM
Given the political campaigns of homophobic and other sexual repression waged by KofC, the question was appropriate, as was the answer, so far as it went. "Our countryís sad history of anti-Catholic bigotry" is a mostly dead tradition buried by the facts that while the Roman Catholic church certainly has its bigoted warriors of repression and an on-going problem with abusive priests, the Roman Catholic church also has some of the most important people advancing human liberation, spirituality, and justice.

Blomquist claiming "bias" is a smoke screen that would have been utterly wrong had the nominee said it. Buescher's response, on the other hand, was proper.

All of which has dohwahsquat to do with christian dominionism.

beam reach
12-22-2018, 07:45 AM
Given the political campaigns of homophobic and other sexual repression waged by KofC, the question was appropriate, as was the answer, so far as it went. "Our country’s sad history of anti-Catholic bigotry" is a mostly dead tradition buried by the facts that while the Roman Catholic church certainly has its bigoted warriors of repression and an on-going problem with abusive priests, the Roman Catholic church also has some of the most important people advancing human liberation, spirituality, and justice.

Blomquist claiming "bias" is a smoke screen that would have been utterly wrong had the nominee said it. Buescher's response, on the other hand, was proper.

All of which has dohwahsquat to do with christian dominionism.

I don`t know Ian , the Catholic church has dominionism in its DNA , since the days of Konstantin.

Keith Wilson
12-22-2018, 10:10 AM
I don`t know Ian , the Catholic church has dominionism in its DNA , since the days of Konstantin.True enough - but the Catholic church is probably the oldest continuously-functioning human institution, and has a whole lot of very ancient stuff in its DNA. It's certainly not evident at the moment, although times could change. You and I share common ancestors with an earthworm and a banana, after all.

beam reach
12-22-2018, 10:43 AM
Quite right Keith , it isn`t apparent at the moment. There may well again come a time when it will . I guess time , as almost always , will tell. Maybe not in my lifetime. Can`t see another Catholic Crusade on the horizon.

Durnik
12-22-2018, 11:29 AM
Everybody and everything is leftist when you're teetering out of control on the far right edge.

Jeff C

Ain't _that_ the truth!



Sobell is on a roll tonight.

and looks like she earned a 'shot across the bow'.. posts gone back to 11/28..



and Keith.. every Jewish Rabbi might disagree.. then, there's China.

as for dominionist dna in the church.. much of my family is catholic.. incl a priest.. and they do a fair show of being dominionist..

skuthorp
12-22-2018, 02:37 PM
We seem to be attracting the RW extremists, likely a plus mark for those of us of a different view in that we are being taken as a danger.

But they've still got nothing.

Good luck over there.

purri
12-22-2018, 05:42 PM
Nah. Ours ( a philosophy) and Zoroastrians.
True enough - but the Catholic church is probably the oldest continuously-functioning human institution, and has a whole lot of very ancient stuff in its DNA. It's certainly not evident at the moment, although times could change. You and I share common ancestors with an earthworm and a banana, after all.

oznabrag
12-22-2018, 07:25 PM
Dominionism is a very real thing, and Pence is all for it.

Putin's Russia is VERY Orthodox Christian, White and under the authoritarian thumb.

Religion, Race and obedient to authority.

The Russian propaganda machine manufactures lies.

Dominionism is real.

Ian McColgin
12-22-2018, 07:35 PM
People who have studied dominionists, as I have since before I went to theology school in the early '70s, are familiar with Gary North's long and flamboyant career promoting "biblical capitalism" and the death penalty for children who curse their parents. I kid you not. North's greatest hoax was his attempt to turn the whole Y2K bit into the end of the world. He really did start and then reved up that hysteria. With the dawn of January 1, 2000, North soldiered on without the shame that Millerites felt on October 23, 1844.

To keep oneself ignorant of the complex roles of religions, including the fringe fundies and eschatological extremists, just makes Putin's job easier.

Sobell
12-23-2018, 12:50 PM
New Zealand is, according to reputable sources, the least religious country on the planet. And yet our divorce rate is no worse than others, our families are as stable, and oddly enough we have possibly the highest degree of religious freedom. Religion causes very little division among our people, my grocer is Hindu, my dentist a Muslim woman, (she has a great store of really good jokes) we've a Buddhist family two doors down, and I've no idea what faith the Somali family a couple of doors further down follow. The thing is, it doesn't matter. We get along.
We do have our problems, but in comparison to many places, I'm sure if you rush off and hunt on line you'll find lots of examples, but in comparison to most countries our problems are relatively minor.
There is no reason why other countries cant do the same.


John Welsford

But if somebody wanted to create a force to disrupt that .... how long would all that magnanimity last?

Sobell
12-23-2018, 12:53 PM
True enough - but the Catholic church is probably the oldest continuously-functioning human institution, and has a whole lot of very ancient stuff in its DNA. It's certainly not evident at the moment, although times could change. You and I share common ancestors with an earthworm and a banana, after all.

Common ancestor? Actually, a common originator.

Flying Orca
12-23-2018, 01:00 PM
Common ancestor? Actually, a common originator.

Heh. Trolly troll is trolly.

amish rob
12-23-2018, 01:08 PM
I probably have more in common with a banana that I do humans.

Peace,
I Donít Know WHAT I Am...

Paul Pless
12-23-2018, 01:14 PM
Well, maybe a banana slug. . .

amish rob
12-23-2018, 01:22 PM
Well, maybe a banana slug. . .

What is, something I do NOT want to run over with a mountain bike, Alex?

Peace,
Robert

Keith Wilson
12-23-2018, 02:45 PM
Common ancestor? Actually, a common originator.No, a literal common ancestor. You and me and a banana (also a banana slug, but they're yucky) really do have a common ancestor, in unbroken line of descent.

FWIW, we can quibble about 'oldest continuously-functioning human institution'. There are older religions, and older countries, but I'd say that China today is not a continuously-functioning institution connected with, say, the Tang dynasty. Quite different. And Judaism isn't an organization. But that's quibbling; let's just say the Catholic church has been around a very long time.

skuthorp
12-23-2018, 04:32 PM
Not 60,000 years……………. as Purri noted.

But theirs is a spiritual connection to the land, muc as the Native Americans had. Nothing to do with a 'religion' in the terms of those of 'the book' and definitely not tainted with ambitions of empire and domination.

Osborne Russell
12-23-2018, 04:59 PM
MEM gave MEM a bad name, not all religion. Roman religion did not demand that the Jews convert.

PeterSibley
12-23-2018, 05:56 PM
Rick Santorum: Separation Of Church And State A Communist Idea, Not An American One

Share on Facebook
(http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fchurchandstate.org.uk%2F 2014%2F12%2Frick-santorum-separation-of-church-and-state-a-communist-idea-not-an-american-one%2F) Tweet on Twitter
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By Brian Tashman | 1 December 2014
Right Wing Watch (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/rick-santorum-separation-church-and-state-communist-idea-not-american-one)
http://churchandstate.org.uk/wordpressRM/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/SANTORUMFAITH.jpgRick SantorumIn a conference call with members of right-wing pastor E.W. Jackson’s STAND America that was posted online today (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdS-A7fCVSk), former senator Rick Santorum disputed the existence of the separation of church and state in the U.S. Constitution, dismissing it as a Communist idea that has no place in America.
A listener on the call told Santorum that “a number of the things that the far left, a.k.a. the Democrat [sic] Party, and the president is pushing for and accomplishing actually accomplishes a number of the tenets of ‘The Communist Manifesto,’ including the amnesty, the elevation of pornography, homosexuality, gay marriage, voter fraud, open borders, mass self-importation of illegal immigrants and things of that nature.” The likely presidential candidate replied that “the words ‘separation of church and state’ is not in the U.S. Constitution, but it was in the constitution of the former Soviet Union. That’s where it very, very comfortably sat, not in ours.”
Of course, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, among others, referred to the separation of church and state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state#The_Treaty_of_Tripo li) when explaining the amendment which they drafted.

john welsford
12-23-2018, 06:07 PM
Sobell, Do you ever even wonder what happens to these kids when they are born to a mother that didn't want them or is what happens to them is of no concern to you at all?

Have you considered the cost to the taxpayer in terms of when an unwanted child grows up to adulthood? It costs what, $60k a year or more to incarcerate them, it costs people hugely to recover from the crimes that those people commit, it costs you, your pocket, your bank balance, some of your wages, to cope with all this.
Thats only one of the many considerations involved in the abortion debate but its one that I think might resonate for you.

John Welsford

john welsford
12-23-2018, 06:19 PM
But if somebody wanted to create a force to disrupt that .... how long would all that magnanimity last?

We have our share of those with extreme views, but the countries culture is such that their opinions dont get the publicity that would enable them to grow their base.
Incidentally, but pertinent, there was a comment a year or two back by a leading politician to the effect that here in New Zealand, for a candidate to publicly declare that they base their positions on any particular religious canon, ( he was nominally Christian) would be political suicide.
There have been several attempts to establish "Christian" based political parties, all failed within a short time, the one that did get some representation imploded spectacularly when the leader of the party was found guilty of pedophilia.

As with most western countries, religion as a political force is reducing. Lots of noise and smoke, but less and less effect.

Note too that we're a very socialistic country, not broke, not in financial trouble, have good healthcare, education, pensions, workers rights protections, human rights protections, among the least corrupt political system in the world and a whole lot of other positives. We do have our issues, but in comparison to many, we're doing well.

I"m sure that will continue.

John Welsford

beam reach
12-23-2018, 06:33 PM
And so it should.

Any chance we can get you guys in NZ to take our reject pollies instead of refugees ?

There would be a steady stream , of a few hundred , for a while .

skuthorp
12-23-2018, 06:39 PM
I alway have liked Phillip II of Macedon. He welcomed any religion, taxed them all. That paid for his son's adventures and wars.

beam reach
12-23-2018, 06:42 PM
Taxed them , and had them fight those wars too.

Ruthlessly efficient.

Mcjim
12-23-2018, 10:10 PM
And so it should.

Any chance we can get you guys in NZ to take our reject pollies instead of refugies ?

There would be a steady stream , of a few hundred , for a while .

No! We have enough of our own thanks.

beam reach
12-23-2018, 10:24 PM
No! We have enough of our own thanks.

Not even self funded ( ex taxpayer ) ones ?

Think of all the money they would bring !

johnw
12-24-2018, 01:01 AM
We have our share of those with extreme views, but the countries culture is such that their opinions dont get the publicity that would enable them to grow their base.
Incidentally, but pertinent, there was a comment a year or two back by a leading politician to the effect that here in New Zealand, for a candidate to publicly declare that they base their positions on any particular religious canon, ( he was nominally Christian) would be political suicide.
There have been several attempts to establish "Christian" based political parties, all failed within a short time, the one that did get some representation imploded spectacularly when the leader of the party was found guilty of pedophilia.

As with most western countries, religion as a political force is reducing. Lots of noise and smoke, but less and less effect.

Note too that we're a very socialistic country, not broke, not in financial trouble, have good healthcare, education, pensions, workers rights protections, human rights protections, among the least corrupt political system in the world and a whole lot of other positives. We do have our issues, but in comparison to many, we're doing well.

I"m sure that will continue.

John Welsford
Used to be like that here, too.

Mcjim
12-24-2018, 03:15 AM
Not even self funded ( ex taxpayer ) ones ?

Think of all the money they would bring !

Not enough!

beam reach
12-24-2018, 03:22 AM
Not enough!

Smart Man ! :d

Mcjim
12-24-2018, 04:46 AM
We have enough problems with dairy farm effluent as it is. Thanks all the same.

PeterSibley
12-24-2018, 04:52 AM
Rick Santorum: Separation Of Church And State A Communist Idea, Not An American One





By Brian Tashman | 1 December 2014
Right Wing Watch (http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/rick-santorum-separation-church-and-state-communist-idea-not-american-one)
http://churchandstate.org.uk/wordpressRM/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/SANTORUMFAITH.jpgRick SantorumIn a conference call with members of right-wing pastor E.W. Jackson’s STAND America that was posted online today (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdS-A7fCVSk), former senator Rick Santorum disputed the existence of the separation of church and state in the U.S. Constitution, dismissing it as a Communist idea that has no place in America.
A listener on the call told Santorum that “a number of the things that the far left, a.k.a. the Democrat [sic] Party, and the president is pushing for and accomplishing actually accomplishes a number of the tenets of ‘The Communist Manifesto,’ including the amnesty, the elevation of pornography, homosexuality, gay marriage, voter fraud, open borders, mass self-importation of illegal immigrants and things of that nature.” The likely presidential candidate replied that “the words ‘separation of church and state’ is not in the U.S. Constitution, but it was in the constitution of the former Soviet Union. That’s where it very, very comfortably sat, not in ours.”
Of course, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, among others, referred to the separation of church and state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state#The_Treaty_of_Tripo li) when explaining the amendment which they drafted.


No comments on this particular bit of insanity ? Anyone?

beam reach
12-24-2018, 05:21 AM
No comments on this particular bit of insanity ? Anyone?



Hypocrisy and lies , not much more to say really .

Political double speak and hidden agendas.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-24-2018, 05:31 AM
Not the "next big threat" rather an ongoing threat since the sixteen hundreds....

Google "Nehemiah Scudder"