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Osborne Russell
11-29-2018, 02:07 PM
The principle argument is still preserving Britain's sovereignty, right?

Especially in terms of trade?

Including product safety, working conditions . . . everything?

In the US the commerce clause (Congress shall have power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes") is the source of much regulation. Anti-trust, civil rights, harbors, airports, drugs. Hard to believe that EU membership means all that. There is no federal government of Europe.

What are the particular aspects of sovereignty which the EU is thought to threaten?

The argument can't be that agreement to be bound by others is objectionable per se. That would mean no trade agreements of any kind.

AndyG
11-29-2018, 02:16 PM
No, the principle driving force of Brexit was, is, and always will be, to keep people out of the country. Those people who work across the NHS, pick vegetables, do menial tasks, and so on.

By keeping these people out, Brexit will ensure the UK returns to a halcyon age - somewhere between the 1930s and 1950s - where Everything Was Wonderful and there were fewer foreign languages on the streets.

Cynical Andy

Paul Pless
11-29-2018, 02:18 PM
mgbga

make great britain great again

Sky Blue
11-29-2018, 02:19 PM
You're going to be just fine, Andy.

David W Pratt
11-29-2018, 02:20 PM
As an American, I can tell you, there have always been foreign languages on the streets of England; most of them called 'English'

Sky Blue
11-29-2018, 02:20 PM
https://www.bing.com/th?id=OIP.nuO13qU9Uf4YVCB-A8wNPQHaGt&w=214&h=194&c=7&o=5&pid=1.7

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
11-29-2018, 02:21 PM
I think the target timeframe is 1830 to 1910.

And or cloud- Cuckoo land.

Sky Blue
11-29-2018, 02:22 PM
You're going to be just fine, PIS-N

amish rob
11-29-2018, 02:23 PM
I think the target timeframe is 1830 to 1910.

And or cloud- Cuckoo land.

Ha! Cloud-Cuckoo land!

Peace,
Robert

Peerie Maa
11-29-2018, 02:24 PM
The principle argument is still preserving Britain's sovereignty, right?

Especially in terms of trade?

Including product safety, working conditions . . . everything?

In the US the commerce clause (Congress shall have power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes") is the source of much regulation. Anti-trust, civil rights, harbors, airports, drugs. Hard to believe that EU membership means all that. There is no federal government of Europe.

What are the particular aspects of sovereignty which the EU is thought to threaten?

The argument can't be that agreement to be bound by others is objectionable per se. That would mean no trade agreements of any kind.

It never did. we were equal members of the Europeans parliament with elected MEPs. That gave us an equal say on everything that the EU were discussing, proposing or agreeing.
The only real change is in an ability to pick and chose who comes to work here from the EU member states. One of the central planks of the EU, alongside a level playing field for freedom to trade was free movement of labour. That will cease.

Sky Blue
11-29-2018, 02:25 PM
So many on the Island are quietly and desperately crying out for their own Trump, their own version of him. If only it could be. But there's only one.

Canoeyawl
11-29-2018, 02:33 PM
I think there's a tv show about this...

Make Britain Bake Again

Peerie Maa
11-29-2018, 02:55 PM
So many on the Island are quietly and desperately crying out for their own Trump, their own version of him. If only it could be. But there's only one.

Sheesh but you are delusional. Do you have to work at being a fool or does it come naturally?

lupussonic
11-29-2018, 03:25 PM
No, the principle driving force of Brexit was, is, and always will be, to keep people out of the country. Those people who work across the NHS, pick vegetables, do menial tasks, and so on.

By keeping these people out, Brexit will ensure the UK returns to a halcyon age - somewhere between the 1930s and 1950s - where Everything Was Wonderful and there were fewer foreign languages on the streets.

Cynical Andy

I am UK born and bred, and I have worked 8 years in the fields, below minimum wage, alongside Portugese, Spanish, Polish, Romanians. You? Ever worked in the fields where you are? The halcyon age of the 1930's is still alive and well in the UK as long as you shop for cabbages in Sainsburys Andy.

Brexit was not just voted on concerning immigration, but also constitutional issues. Care to comment on what it means for an island nations mentality to be governed by officials that they did not elect? Do you want less democracy, less say in your governance? Even less than you already have? That is the emotion, right or wrong, that people voted on.

We in Cornwall have only just discovered brown bread, let alone brown people, and we are far from having our limits pushed as far as being drowned out too fast by foreign languages or school quotas, or housing shortages goes. But having worked on the East coast alongside colleagues who have had their limits pushed, I have had my eyes opened.

Cheap labour from overseas is irrefutably good for the UK, something that brexiteeers failed to realise, but be that as it may, we still fail to control our border, even as an island nation. We do not know exactly our net in vs out shamefully. An internal issue I realise.

By the way, just to remind you, I did not vote in the referendum, it was far too complicated a question for me. I have lived/worked for more than 15 years on mainland Europe, speak 3 European languages, and I have 4 mixed race nieces and nephews, so please don't go there.

Peerie Maa
11-29-2018, 03:32 PM
Brexit was not just voted on concerning immigration, but also constitutional issues. Care to comment on what it means for an island nations mentality to be governed by officials that they did not elect? Do you want less democracy, less say in your governance? Even less than you already have? That is the emotion, right or wrong, that people voted on.

We in Cornwall have only just discovered brown bread, let alone brown people, and we are far from having our limits pushed as far as being drowned out too fast by foreign languages or school quotas, or housing shortages goes. But having worked on the East coast alongside colleagues who have had their limits pushed, I have had my eyes opened.

Recognise any of these unelected people?

Your MEPs

The below Members of the European Parliament (MEP’s), elected in May 2014 by proportional representation, represent the South West region as a whole (Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Somerset, Wiltshire, Bristol and Gloucestershire). Contact any of them, using the links below to find contact information, for help and advice on European matters.


https://modgov.southsomerset.gov.uk/UserData/5/4/1/Info00000145/smallpic.jpg
William (The Earl of) Dartmouth (https://modgov.southsomerset.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=145) UK Independence Party
https://modgov.southsomerset.gov.uk/UserData/6/4/1/Info00000146/smallpic.jpg
Ashley Fox (https://modgov.southsomerset.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=146) Conservative Party
https://modgov.southsomerset.gov.uk/UserData/4/4/1/Info00000144/smallpic.jpg
Julie Girling (https://modgov.southsomerset.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=144) Independent
https://modgov.southsomerset.gov.uk/UserData/0/5/1/Info00000150/smallpic.jpg
Clare Moody (https://modgov.southsomerset.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=150) Labour Party
https://modgov.southsomerset.gov.uk/UserData/9/4/1/Info00000149/smallpic.jpg
Julia Reid (https://modgov.southsomerset.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=149) UK Independence Party
https://modgov.southsomerset.gov.uk/UserData/1/5/1/Info00000151/smallpic.jpg
Molly Scott-Cato (https://modgov.southsomerset.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=151) Green Party




Mind you, with two UKIPers in that list no wonder you don't feel properly represented in the European Parliament.

AnalogKid
11-29-2018, 03:51 PM
No, the principle driving force of Brexit was, is, and always will be, to keep people out of the country. Those people who work across the NHS, pick vegetables, do menial tasks, and so on.

By keeping these people out, Brexit will ensure the UK returns to a halcyon age - somewhere between the 1930s and 1950s - where Everything Was Wonderful and there were fewer foreign languages on the streets.

Cynical Andy

My take on it is that the principle reason is the most right-leaning members of the nasty party don't like all the protection that workers and consumers get from raw, unbridled capitalism, that's their primary reason for wanting out - those pesky EU rules are getting in the way of making even more money. The xenophobic hysteria is just something they've whipped up to help sell it to the masses, making the riff-raff feel like that at least they are superior to someone. Of course, most of those hard-right tories are probably racist as well, but they wouldn't let that get in the way if there was money in it.

Edward Pearson
11-29-2018, 03:57 PM
https://youtu.be/BkvEp_B5Kq8

Peerie Maa
11-29-2018, 04:02 PM
My take on it is that the principle reason is the most right-leaning members of the nasty party don't like all the protection that workers and consumers get from raw, unbridled capitalism, that's their primary reason for wanting out - those pesky EU rules are getting in the way of making even more money. The xenophobic hysteria is just something they've whipped up to help sell it to the masses, making the riff-raff feel like that at least they are superior to someone. Of course, most of those hard-right tories are probably racist as well, but they wouldn't let that get in the way if there was money in it.

Certainly applies to Ree Smog and his cronies, and possibly to the Daily Wail editorial policy makers. Those who voted probably do not know "what did the EU ever do for us", and probably voted the immigration card. There is evidence that some voted out because they blamed the EU for our British ministries failings and policies that ran counter to EU ideas.

Osborne Russell
11-29-2018, 04:14 PM
No, the principle driving force of Brexit was, is, and always will be, to keep people out of the country.

No doubt that's one driving force, though it seems like an odd choice of means for that purpose.

But the driving force is another subject. I'm trying to learn anything has been added to the argument. You know, have they come up with any new bull S. Is it still sovereignty?

Osborne Russell
11-29-2018, 04:17 PM
It never did. we were equal members of the Europeans parliament with elected MEPs. That gave us an equal say on everything that the EU were discussing, proposing or agreeing.
The only real change is in an ability to pick and chose who comes to work here from the EU member states. One of the central planks of the EU, alongside a level playing field for freedom to trade was free movement of labour. That will cease.

So Brexiters are against the free movement of labor? On what principle? Both ways or just to Britain?

Osborne Russell
11-29-2018, 04:24 PM
From this American's perspective it's plain why Trumpers are Brexiters. No reason is given, and none appears, why else they should give a fig.

Brexit weakens NATO which helps Russia which helps Trump.

Wine47
11-29-2018, 04:52 PM
So many on the Island are quietly and desperately crying out for their own Trump, their own version of him. If only it could be. But there's only one.

They can have ours!

birlinn
11-29-2018, 05:03 PM
So many on the Island are quietly and desperately crying out for their own Trump, their own version of him. If only it could be. But there's only one.

Says the master of alternative reality.
What are you on? Magic mushrooms?

Edward Pearson
11-29-2018, 05:03 PM
A few things we can assume, apart from Macron being a twat.

1. Theresa May’s deal isn’t going to get through Parliament (its a stinking dog turd of an aggreement) because of the last minute capitulation on the Irish backstop. We were expecting someone not to be pleased, but her deal offends everyone.

2. The DUP wont force a general election, as they are currently empowered king makers, but they can force a change in leadership (policy direction) by not voting with the government. The Conservatives dont want a general election, so she’ll have to go, even if she doesnt resign.

3. The MP’s and probably the EU are not going to let a dissorderly no deal brexit occur in March.

I’d say May’s deal will lose by a large number. She’ll try and get a modification, but it will too little too late. There will be a move to make her resign after the vote before Christmas. The only position I can see a majority of MP’s on all sides would vote for now, would be a Norway plus aggreement in EFTA. DUP, Scots, Con and Labour have said they would vote for it and EU is happiy with that. It will reduce payments, avoid border issues, gets us out of fisheries and farming. Its not perfect we have to accept free movement - buisness wont mind that, but it keeps the most people happy with regard to a vote in the Commons and can be done quickly with the EU with an article 50 extention probably. Technically the referendum will have been met - we would have left the EU.

Peerie Maa
11-29-2018, 05:05 PM
So Brexiters are against the free movement of labor? On what principle? Both ways or just to Britain?

Just to Britain. They still want to own a nice little gite in France or a Spanish Villa in the sun.
Don't ask me why, we need workers and the governments own department of Statistics published data that prove immigrants are a nett benefit to our economy. That did not stop the MP Gove lying about it on telly and doubling down when called out on his lie.

birlinn
11-29-2018, 05:07 PM
Total male chicken-up.
I hope, and it's a slim chance, that people can vote in a second referendum now they can see the total mess facing them. A petition now has over a million signatures, including mine.

Peerie Maa
11-29-2018, 05:09 PM
A few things we can assume, apart from Macron being a twat.

1. Theresa May’s deal isn’t going to get through Parliament (its a stinking dog turd of an aggreement) because of the last minute capitulation on the Irish backstop. We were expecting someone not to be pleased, but her deal offends everyone.

2. The DUP wont force a general election, as they are currently empowered king makers, but they can force a change in leadership (policy direction) by not voting with the government. The Conservatives dont want a general election, so she’ll have to go.

3. The MP’s and probably not the EU are not going to let a dissorderly no deal brexit occur in March.

I’d say May’s deal will lose by a large number. She’ll try and get a modification, but it will too little too late. There will be a move to make her resign after the vote before Christmas. The only position I can see a majority of MP’s on all sides would vote for now, would be a Norway plus aggreement in EFTA. DUP, Scots, Con and Labour have said they would vote for it. It will reduce payments, avoid border issues, gets us out of fisheries and farming. Its not perfect we have to accept free movement, but it keeps the most people happy with regard to a vote in the Commons.

Or we could admit that it was a stupid idea from the get go and decide to stay in with the status quo. After all it is always better to be in the tent p!$$ing out than outside p!$$ing in.

Edward Pearson
11-29-2018, 05:25 PM
Except that its not the status quo is it Nick.

We both know the EU is ramping up integration towards a USE. Payments are increasing. Centralisation of fiscal policy etc.
There is a political question there that has barely been asked a cross Europe’s population.

There is no argument that we can change policy from within the EU, it did not transpire over the last 40 years, and we have no longer a veto, simply get out voted.

There is no other free trade area in the world that insists on acceptance and aquiensance of formation into a single country anywhere else on Earth.

AndyG
11-29-2018, 05:32 PM
Care to comment on what it means for an island nations mentality to be governed by officials that they did not elect? Do you want less democracy, less say in your governance? Even less than you already have?

Don't forget, for one moment, you are addressing an English-born, SNP card-carrying Scottish Nationalist, who, since I moved north in 1993, has seen precisely what the effect of officials I've not elected have been capable of for 25 years.

The EU is, politically, the greatest invention of the last century. A trading partnership of over 510 million people, covering a continent whose history has been of war and aggression. Sh!t, one of my Mum's first memories is witnessing the fire-bombing of Coventry. Do you not think that, in a world of Trump, Putin and Xi, a competent bastion of flippin' sanity is worthwhile?

Andy

obscured by clouds
11-29-2018, 05:33 PM
he only position I can see a majority of MP’s on all sides would vote for now, would be a Norway plus aggreement in EFTA. DUP, Scots, Con and Labour have said they would vote for it and EU is happiy with that. It will reduce payments, avoid border issues, gets us out of fisheries and farming. Its not perfect we have to accept free movement - buisness wont mind that, but it keeps the most people happy with regard to a vote in the Commons and can be done quickly with the EU with an article 50 extention probably. Technically the referendum will have been met - we would have left the EU.

The Sun and Daily Wail seems to be backing this scenario.

Osborne Russell
11-29-2018, 06:11 PM
The Sun and Daily Wail seems to be backing this scenario.

All these halfway measures, I don't get it, and I suppose this is my question: if the argument is loss of sovereignty, what is there to compromise on? Why the fancy pants? We can let go a little sovereignty if the price is right? I can't imagine the people approving such a deal.

birlinn
11-29-2018, 06:14 PM
What does 'sovereignty' actually buy? or add to the GDP?
We will still have a sovereign anyway.

Osborne Russell
11-29-2018, 06:14 PM
Just to Britain. They still want to own a nice little gite in France or a Spanish Villa in the sun.
Don't ask me why, we need workers and the governments own department of Statistics published data that prove immigrants are a nett benefit to our economy. That did not stop the MP Gove lying about it on telly and doubling down when called out on his lie.

Isn't it somewhat unrealistic to expect it to work only in one direction? Why would the rest of Europe agree?

Wouldn't this mean that the ex-pats are remainers? Are they?

Sky Blue
11-29-2018, 06:19 PM
the EU is a trading partnership

It's a Hell of a lot more than that. Parliament, courts, bodies, departments, committees. It's a bloated colossus.


The Sun and the Daily Mail seem to be on board

Yeah. Even the Express is softening, and starting to run fear scenarios. The moment Desmond sold the paper I knew it'd go wobbly the first moment it could.


The EU has prevented war in Europe

No. America has prevented war in Europe.

birlinn
11-29-2018, 06:22 PM
It's a Hell of a lot more than that. Parliament, courts, bodies, departments, committees. It's a bloated colossus.



Yeah. Even the Express is softening, and starting to run fear scenarios. The moment Desmond sold the paper I knew it'd go wobbly the first moment it could.



No. America has prevented war in Europe.

If only America had prevented war in the middle east.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
11-29-2018, 06:25 PM
Isn't it somewhat unrealistic to expect it to work only in one direction? Why would the rest of Europe agree?

Wouldn't this mean that the ex-pats are remainers? Are they?

Guess who were not allowed to vote in the Frauderendum?

Osborne Russell
11-29-2018, 06:28 PM
Guess who were not allowed to vote in the Frauderendum?

Wait, aren't they British citizens?

isla
11-29-2018, 06:35 PM
Isn't it somewhat unrealistic to expect it to work only in one direction? Why would the rest of Europe agree?

Wouldn't this mean that the ex-pats are remainers? Are they?

A lot of ex-pats are remainers. Some are already facing difficulties with identification. People living in EU countries who have used their 'Burgundy' British passports as ID for years, for work and business, buying property, renting cars etc. are suddenly finding that officials are questioning their validity.
Two thirds of the 780,000+ ex-pats living in Europe are aged between 15 - 64, which means they are mostly workers, not retired people. They have committed to a career abroad based on a set of circumstances which are about to change dramatically.

Sky Blue
11-29-2018, 06:44 PM
Hi Isla. I'm glad to "see" you.

AndyG
11-29-2018, 07:54 PM
Sky Blue on 'ignore' is glorious.

What did he say? ...Who cares?!

Sky Blue
11-29-2018, 08:23 PM
What did he say? ...Who cares?!

C'mon, Andy. You know you read every word of it. :)

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
11-30-2018, 05:01 AM
All these halfway measures, I don't get it, and I suppose this is my question: if the argument is loss of sovereignty, what is there to compromise on? Why the fancy pants? We can let go a little sovereignty if the price is right? I can't imagine the people approving such a deal.

Sovereignty is a red herring, the UK has been a vasal state since 1956, we would be much better served by being a part of Europe than as an offshore airbase for the USA.

Edward Pearson
11-30-2018, 06:16 AM
Anybody else get the feeling May is toast. She hasn't carried the party with her, the commons or the population. She wasn't negociating a deal, just running the clock down to bounce everyone, conservatives, labour, dup etc into her position. Her 'deal' is a dead parrot. A capitulation. It reads like we just lost WW1 peace treaty - payments, carving of parts of a country, you have no choice but to accept it...It's deeply underwhelming that after 2 years this is all she achieved. I don't think she has the trust of her party, politicians or some of the public anymore. What really does she think? Apparently people growing up with her said she was the same then. We had to 'tack' our foreign policy.

The capitulations...

1. She's giving the money for nothing back. Do we owe it? Maybe...maybe not.
2. The trade deal won't get done in time. She's putting a border in the Irish sea when the backstop comes into force. Which it will.
3. While we are still their we keep payments and the ECJ.
4. We can only get out of this arrangement if we give them everything they ask for.

It's confirmed this week by Macron that he will insist (as will others) that any future 'trade deal' will be traded for full access to UK fishing waters. It's not unreasonable to have to give something politically for access to the EU market. We have to accept that, but it's clear, the position she will put us in, will give us no leverage with negotiations, even less than we've had in the last 2 years. She's capitualted, gone over negotiators heads - Davis and Raab. She'll do it again. She now has form.

I think May has had a difficult job, she is an experienced politician, she reads her briefs, but I think she is being too pragmatic and her/ Barnier's backstop is fundamentally unnaceptable. It was written overnight without Raab's knowledge. Olly Robbins is the culprit apparently, a civil servant. We do need more ideaological leadership on this. Unfortunately the population gave an instruction, and parliament MP's are more remain in number. Until we have a general election, the MP's position can't be corrected and the party' positions either. We have an unrepresentative governement, led by a remainer, illpracticed at negociations.

May is reminding me of the last days of Thatcher. I see she ruled out the Norway option today. I don't think she realises she is no longer in control of events after her 'deal' was revealed. It's her death warrant, so to speak, in reality. Parliament is now going to take control.

I voted leave. I would be happy with a hard Brexit. I can understand the remainers position though. I'd accept the Norway plus option. I realise we don't get border control, but on the other hand we will get the fishing waters back, which are quite clearly going to be traded off with any May trade deal to avoid the backstop coming in. That would be a massive boost for our coastal ports and Scotland that lost so much when we entered. So that's where I am at the minute: Norway plus/ EFTA. It would keep probably 60-70% people happy. Its the only option I can see Parliament passing now. To see the look on Macron's face when he tells his fisherman, they've lost the waters, after his latest ill timed emotional outburst, would be utterly utterly priceless, if it turns out that way.

heimfried
11-30-2018, 07:17 AM
[...]
I realise we don't get border control, but on the other hand we will get the fishing waters back, which are quite clearly going to be traded off with any May trade deal to avoid the backstop coming in. That would be a massive boost for our coastal ports and Scotland that lost so much when we entered. So that's where I am at the minute: Norway plus/ EFTA. It would keep probably 60-70% people happy. Its the only option I can see Parliament passing now. To see the look on Macron's face when he tells his fisherman, they've lost the waters would be utterly priceless, if it turns out that way.


As far as I read (link below), it will not be so easy.

"The idea that the UK will be able have full control of its fishing waters is an illusion. We currently export up to 75 per cent of our fish to the EU."
(Catherine Bearder is a Liberal Democrat politician and MEP for South East England)

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-norway-model-plan-nick-boles-conservative-fisheries-policy-eu-cfp-a8658781.html

(https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-norway-model-plan-nick-boles-conservative-fisheries-policy-eu-cfp-a8658781.html)

Osborne Russell
11-30-2018, 07:25 AM
A lot of ex-pats are remainers. Some are already facing difficulties with identification. People living in EU countries who have used their 'Burgundy' British passports as ID for years, for work and business, buying property, renting cars etc. are suddenly finding that officials are questioning their validity.
Two thirds of the 780,000+ ex-pats living in Europe are aged between 15 - 64, which means they are mostly workers, not retired people. They have committed to a career abroad based on a set of circumstances which are about to change dramatically.

That's a lot of people with a range of serious problems.

Self-government is the basis of sovereignty. But those most directly affected don't get to self-govern, i.e. vote, on an issue that is supposed to promote their sovereignty? That's a lot of irony, if that's the word.

Osborne Russell
11-30-2018, 07:29 AM
Sovereignty is a red herring, the UK has been a vasal state since 1956, we would be much better served by being a part of Europe than as an offshore airbase for the USA.

Instead of Brexit, Britain should distance itself from the US, is that what you're saying?

Osborne Russell
11-30-2018, 07:31 AM
. . . on the other hand we will get the fishing waters back . . .

In what sense? Is the case currently that Europe fishes the waters and sells the fish to Europe? And that after Brexit, only British fishermen will fish the waters, and sell the fish to Europe?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
11-30-2018, 08:02 AM
Instead of Brexit, Britain should distance itself from the US, is that what you're saying?

Britain needs to be honest about its the place in the world, it is a long time since we were a major power. Inside a developing EU we had a hope of owning some say in our governance, outside we are a small fish in n a large pond while suffering delusions of grandeur.


A dose of reality is wanted.

Peerie Maa
11-30-2018, 08:49 AM
In what sense? Is the case currently that Europe fishes the waters and sells the fish to Europe? And that after Brexit, only British fishermen will fish the waters, and sell the fish to Europe?

There are two fishing industries in the UK, big industrial trawlers owned by businesses, and smaller boats with smaller crews and owner skippers, who may only go out for a week or for a tide.
The big industrial boats have mostly had their licences sold to European owners, so British fishing licence and quota holders are not all British anyway.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
11-30-2018, 08:53 AM
Which raises the interesting question.

What exactly did the Cornish quota holders sell to the Spanish fishermen?

And why would anyone trust them again?

Edward Pearson
11-30-2018, 09:16 AM
In what sense? Is the case currently that Europe fishes the waters and sells the fish to Europe? And that after Brexit, only British fishermen will fish the waters, and sell the fish to Europe?

CFP and CAP are not included in EFTA. Under quota agreements EU boats catch 80% of fish in British waters. Even if British fisherman paid 10% import duty on fish, that's outweighed by a 400% increase in quota if catches remained the same. You could just double British fishermans quota, halve the total fish caught (giving an environmental dividend to fish stocks) so they bounce back quicker, watch the price increase, pay the import duty etc and still be better off. It matters to coastal towns economically and politically especially Scotland, and to Scottish conservatives. It's why the Norwegian populace won't join the EU. In reality, we aren't geared up to catch the fish, until the boats relocate. We would sell them rights of access, diminishing over a period. Given the choice that's now appearing before us, I'd rather the politicans take the fishing waters and get out of CFP & CAP (EFTA) over restriction to free movement (May).

Osborne Russell
12-02-2018, 05:45 PM
CFP and CAP are not included in EFTA. Under quota agreements EU boats catch 80% of fish in British waters. Even if British fisherman paid 10% import duty on fish, that's outweighed by a 400% increase in quota if catches remained the same. You could just double British fishermans quota, halve the total fish caught (giving an environmental dividend to fish stocks) so they bounce back quicker, watch the price increase, pay the import duty etc and still be better off. It matters to coastal towns economically and politically especially Scotland, and to Scottish conservatives. It's why the Norwegian populace won't join the EU. In reality, we aren't geared up to catch the fish, until the boats relocate. We would sell them rights of access, diminishing over a period. Given the choice that's now appearing before us, I'd rather the politicans take the fishing waters and get out of CFP & CAP (EFTA) over restriction to free movement (May).

Does it boil down to discrimination against British fisherman? Of a certain class, anyway? By some criteria? I can't imagine what else your argument boils down to.

Or were fishermen of that class, in those waters, but of other nations, disadvantaged as well?

In any case, unless you mean to exclude all but British fishermen from anywhere, you're going to have an international dispute, and then try to make a series of bilateral deals to deal with it, and wind up wishing everybody could just sit down at the same time in the same place, and make a deal binding everyone. Something like . . . the EU.

So how is leaving the EU a solution?

Peerie Maa
12-02-2018, 05:59 PM
Does it boil down to discrimination against British fisherman? Of a certain class, anyway? By some criteria? I can't imagine what else your argument boils down to.

Or were fishermen of that class, in those waters, disadvantaged as well?

In any case, unless you mean to exclude all but British fishermen from anywhere, you're going to have an international dispute, and then try to make a series of bilateral deals to deal with it, and wind up wishing everybody could just sit down at the same time in the same place, and make a deal binding everyone. Something like . . . the EU.

So how is leaving the EU a solution?

This is relevant

A recent investigation (http://lifeplatform.eu/fishy-business-fish-pos-eu/) by the EU lobby group for coastal fishermen Low Impact Fishers of Europe (Life) uncovered the opaque ownership pattern of the half-dozen fish producer organisations (POs), which possess 97% of English quotas.

The investigation, entitled Fishy Business in the EU, found that one of the English POs belonged, in effect, to a single Dutch company. Another, the Fleetwood PO, is dominated by UK fishing companies controlled by Spanish interests.
In Scotland (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/scotland), foreign companies have been kept at bay but the country’s generous quotas for species such as herring and mackerel have been bought up by a handful of fishing families. Two-fifths of the entire Scottish catch by value, and 65% by tonnage, was landed by 19 powerful super-trawlers in 2016. Small-scale coastal fishermen, who operate 80% of Scottish boats, have to make do with 1% of quotas.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/11/brexit-uk-fishermen-fishing-industry-quotas-uk-government
and
http://nffo.org.uk/eu-referendum/2016/05/09/fisheries-facts-not-fantasy

Never mind “Project Fear", “Project Fact" is needed here. The UK exports 45% of its catch. 80% of that quantity goes to EU countries. For example 90% of fish landed in Ramsgate are sold in the Boulogne Fish Market - for 15% more in value than they would get at home. When you visit North East Scotland you see vast European registered refrigerated trucks driving south and many don't stop until they reach France or Spain. UK fishing vessels fish in the waters of other EU countries. In addition to wider sovereign waters fishing rights UK fishermen have rights within the 6-12 mile limit of four other member states: Ireland, Germany, France and the Netherlands. For example trawlers out of Brixham exploit the valuable scallop stocks in the Baie de Seine. Trawlers out of Peterhead fish in Dutch and German waters. Many of the foreign vessels fishing in UK waters do so because the companies that own them bought from UK fishermen and with them the right to fish. It is important to note that the UK is allocated about 30% of the EU's total catch even though it has only 13% of the total sea area (ie UK EEZ compared to the entire EU EEZ, but not including territorial waters).

AndyG
12-02-2018, 06:35 PM
9 days until the 11th.

On which day:

May's Brexit 'solution' will be shot down in flames in parliament. Labour will go for a vote of no confidence in the government, which will lose. Nothing changes, but...

Mayhem ensues.

Outcomes?

1. A general election.
2. A new People's Vote.
3. There is no three.

... A demand to delay Article 50's deadline, on any of the above.

If '1', the SNP will argue for a new Independence Referendum (they already have the mandate in multiple forms), and will win it sometime in 2019. The DUP will be blown away and a united Ireland will be more inevitable, though not for a few years yet. The Tory Party will implode. Corbyn's Labour won't win outright. UKIP (aka the New BNP) will be nowhere. It'll be a fustercluck. Minority UK government and distabilisation for the next term. Liberal Party? Oh yes, the Liberals. Nowhere.

If '2', and the options are 'this deal' (there is, after all, no other sane or offered one) or 'remain', remain will win. Hands down. The last two years will be seen as utterly wasted. The ERG w4nkers and Brexiteers in general will be spouting venom on the Mail's comments sections, but that is all. No riots in the streets. There's a possibility that a referendum option could be some form of 'Norway'. All the regs, none of the say. That's still lose-lose. As bad as a no-deal Brexit.

The eventual result?

...Fascinating. I shall enjoy it all immensely. ;)

Andy

Peerie Maa
12-02-2018, 06:38 PM
^ Yup!

Paul Pless
12-02-2018, 07:47 PM
^ Yup!
Even that last line?

Osborne Russell
12-02-2018, 08:09 PM
OK it's a mess because the boats are too big and they are owned by opaque multinationals.

1. How is leaving the EU going to make that easier to deal with?
2. Why isn't the EU the right tool for the job?

AndyG
12-02-2018, 08:28 PM
It isn't. And it is.

Brexit, in a nutshell. It's flippin' bonkers.

Andy

lupussonic
12-03-2018, 01:31 AM
If '1', the SNP will argue for a new Independence Referendum (they already have the mandate in multiple forms), and will win it sometime in 2019.

Andy

Scotland can argue for it all it likes, but it still needs permission from Westminster to hold a referendum. Didn't you have one recently?

Peerie Maa
12-03-2018, 06:25 AM
OK it's a mess because the boats are too big and they are owned by opaque multinationals.

1. How is leaving the EU going to make that easier to deal with?
2. Why isn't the EU the right tool for the job?

Depends on the size of the UK governments gronicles and how loud the fishing lobby can shout and jump up and down.
There is this [uirl=https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2009/23/contents] Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009[/url] that can be used to exclude non UK registered boats out of half of the North sea, and so on. But that may trigger our version of the Icelandic cod wars.

I cannot see that happening.

Osborne Russell
12-03-2018, 11:54 AM
I also try to see it from the other side. You have a small boat. No one cares.

These people who are supposed to stand up for you at the EU, how did they get there? I.e., whom do they owe? In fact who, exactly, are they?

Many people lose many things to globalism, maybe. I lose all I have. F it.

Peerie Maa
12-03-2018, 12:17 PM
These people who are supposed to stand up for you at the EU, how did they get there? I.e., whom do they owe? In fact who, exactly, are they?


Not quite sure what you mean by that.
We elect Members of the European Parliament.

The European Parliament is made up of 751 Members elected in the 28 Member States of the enlarged European Union. Since 1979 MEPs have been elected by direct universal suffrage for a five-year period. Each country decides on the form its election will take, but must guarantee equality of the sexes and a secret ballot. More here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/about

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-03-2018, 12:39 PM
Now tell us about the council of ministers.....

Peerie Maa
12-03-2018, 12:47 PM
Now tell us about the council of ministers.....

This? https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/topics/fisheries/

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-03-2018, 02:25 PM
Not quite...
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/council-eu_en

The antidote to democracy

skaraborgcraft
12-03-2018, 02:38 PM
Someone has leaked the legal opinion on the withdrawal agreement, that May was trying to withold from Parliment and the nation. Seems she has been telling lies regarding our right to end the customs union. Still nothing about it on the BBC 4 hours after it was on another news source........

birlinn
12-03-2018, 02:42 PM
We live in interesting times.
It ain't going to finish well.

Peerie Maa
12-03-2018, 02:42 PM
Not quite...
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/council-eu_en

The antidote to democracy

Perhaps you should read your own link?



Members: Government ministers from each EU country, according to the policy area to be discussed
President: Each EU country holds the presidency on a 6-month rotating basis

Sky Blue
12-03-2018, 02:52 PM
I hope the UK leaves, and leaves soon. Democratic results must be honored. Continuing on like this, indefinitely, could well destroy the country.

birlinn
12-03-2018, 02:54 PM
Leave the British to get on with it, bluie.
Like the French.

John Meachen
12-03-2018, 03:58 PM
This is one Brit who is looking forward to the possibility of the government being in contempt of parliament for witholding the legal advice about our position.Combine this with the Prime Minister always referring to the "will of the people" as the basis for the move,which I interpret as a device for deflecting criticism of a disadvantageous outcome and it isn't too hard to see that the whole thing is an utter fiasco.One of our latest triumphs is to walk away from the Galileo project.

Edward Pearson
12-03-2018, 05:14 PM
John we didn't walk away from Galileo. The Europeans are denying us access. They are quite happy for our new carriers, planes and nuclear weapons to disproportionately provide European security, not to mention our intelligence services. It shows what monsters the Europeans are.

Still we built and run much of the current system including developing the important PRS encryption. We have a micro space industry and can put satellites up again easily.

If we're kept out, the Europeans will get delayed. The cost isn't that much either in the grand scheme of things. We have a network of islands around the world for signal reception.

F 'em. It's things like this that define why we are not them, and they are not us.

Peerie Maa
12-03-2018, 05:23 PM
John we didn't walk away from Galileo. The Europeans are denying us access. They are quite happy for our new carriers, planes and nuclear weapons to disproportionately provide European security, not to mention our intelligence services. It shows what monsters the Europeans are.

Still we built and run much of the current system including developing the important PRS encryption. We have a micro space industry and can put satellites up again easily.

If we're kept out, the Europeans will get delayed. The cost isn't that much either in the grand scheme of things. We have a network of islands around the world for signal reception.

F 'em. It's things like this that define why we are not them, and they are not us.

Ungrateful Europeans. When we come up with a dumb idea that harms their best interests, they should have just bobbed a bow and pulled their forelocks.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-03-2018, 05:26 PM
John we didn't walk away from Galileo. The Europeans are denying us access. They are quite happy for our new carriers, planes and nuclear weapons to disproportionately provide European security, not to mention our intelligence services. It shows what monsters the Europeans are.

Still we built and run much of the current system including developing the important PRS encryption. We have a micro space industry and can put satellites up again easily.

If we're kept out, the Europeans will get delayed. The cost isn't that much either in the grand scheme of things. We have a network of islands around the world for signal reception.

F 'em. It's things like this that define why we are not them, and they are not us.

Pearson and his ilk make me ashamed to be British.

The post above is utter bollocks, written by a typical Quitling. He does not know what he is talking about, but then the only people amongst the near-Nazis who do know their subject are too busy making money out of it to tell the truth. Pearson can’t be bothered with facts. If he could, he would know that the Galileo issue turns on the military and security aspects of the system, not the civilian part, that “putting up our own satellites” would create a bandwidth issue and that a nation with some of the poorest areas in Europe as well as the richest has other things to be spending money on.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-03-2018, 06:43 PM
Anyway, tonight’s news is that the Government have refused to give the House access to the legal advice that their own lawyers gave them on their “deal”, and Mr Speaker Bercow has just ruled that prima facie the Government are now in contempt of Parliament, having failed to comply with a Loyal Address, and there will be an emergency debate on this tomorrow before other business.

This is the start of the real crisis.

Osborne Russell
12-03-2018, 06:50 PM
Not quite sure what you mean by that.
We elect Members of the European Parliament.
More here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/about

I didn't know that, thanks.

But I suspect alienation between the people, or some of them, and their representatives, not just because of our own example but because the sovereignty thing seems off, like, a cover for something else. What might that be?

My hypothetical fisherman feels he's been sold out. For what, in particular? What does his EU rep get out of it?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-03-2018, 06:58 PM
Your hypothetical fisherman’s father was given his quota by Margaret Thatcher and he sold it to the Dutch or the Spanish, just as he sold the Council house that she sold him at a tiny fraction of its value.

Other European nations were wiser. Fish quotas are held by ports, not by fishermen.

Now he’s whinging and blaming “EU bureaucrats”.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-03-2018, 07:01 PM
Here’s the document that the Government are refusing to release:

http://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Withdrawal-Agreement-Legal-and-Governance-Aspects.pdf

Peerie Maa
12-03-2018, 07:11 PM
I didn't know that, thanks.

But I suspect alienation between the people, or some of them, and their representatives, not just because of our own example but because the sovereignty thing seems off, like, a cover for something else. What might that be?

My hypothetical fisherman feels he's been sold out. For what, in particular? What does his EU rep get out of it?

We are not discussing the thinly disguised US system of back handers and promises of future wealth here.

CODE OF CONDUCT FOR MEMBERS OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT WITH RESPECT TO FINANCIAL INTERESTS AND CONFLICTS OF INTEREST

Article 1

Guiding principles

In exercising their duties, Members of the European Parliament:
(a) are guided by and observe the following general principles of conduct: disinterest, integrity, openness, diligence, honesty, accountability and respect for Parliament’s reputation,

(b) act solely in the public interest and refrain from obtaining or seeking to obtain any direct or indirect financial benefit or other reward.

Article 2

Main duties of Members

In exercising their duties, Members of the European Parliament shall:
(a) not enter into any agreement to act or vote in the interest of any other legal or natural person that would compromise their voting freedom, as enshrined in Article 6 of the Act of 20 September 1976 concerning the election of the members of the European Parliament by direct universal suffrage and Article 2 of the Statute for Members of the European Parliament,

(b) not solicit, accept or receive any direct or indirect benefit or other reward, whether in cash or in kind, in exchange for specific behaviour in the scope of the Member's parliamentary work, and shall consciously seek to avoid any situation which might imply bribery, corruption, or undue influence,

(c) not engage in paid professional lobbying directly linked to the Union decision-making process.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/pdf/meps/Code%20of%20Conduct_01-2017_EN.pdf
Those UK fishermen who feel sold out are p!!$ed because of the quota system that limits their income, and has them discard perfectly saleable fish where they have exceeded their quota. That and feeling that they are powerless to have their concerns listened to by MEP's who represent everyone in a largish constituency. The fisheries policies are discussed by committees of ministers who each head up each member states government department on the particular topic. So to be heard a fisherman from Cornwall has to get his elected MP to put pressure on the minister for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to take the argument to the EU Fisheries committee. it is democratic, but long-winded.

AndyG
12-03-2018, 07:59 PM
Scotland can argue for it all it likes, but it still needs permission from Westminster to hold a referendum. Didn't you have one recently?

2014, Mr Pearson. And you may recall that one of Project Fear's biggest sticks against independence was that an independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU. The EU was endlessly promoted, during this campaign, as a positive entity for all the nations of the UK.

Roll on two years, and the Brexit referendum returned a result where the electorate in all 32 councils in Scotland voted in favour of Remain, to a national result of 62% in favour of the status quo.

Westminster, in June this year, spent a grand total of fifteen minutes - with filibustering by the Tories, and no Scottish MPs heard - to seek complete control over devolved powers in Holyrood.

You think any of this was fair, Edward?

This isn't a Union. It's the pi$$-poor 300-year-old remains of an English-dominated empire, subjugating those smaller than itself, wherever and whenever it can.

The political territory has changed immeasurably over the past four years ... a majority SNP government has a mandate for independence, the right to hold a referendum for independence, whenever the hell it likes.

Andy

Peerie Maa
12-03-2018, 08:03 PM
^God Damn to Hell those people who promoted the Darien Scheme. . . . oh wait . . . .

Edward Pearson
12-03-2018, 08:11 PM
Andrew,

I've noted vitriolic spume seems to be your preferred mode of argument when you're stressed, and it's so frequent that I now regard it as one of your main characteristics. Your actions are neither Liberal nor one of a democrat.

Edward Pearson
12-03-2018, 08:53 PM
2014, Mr Pearson. And you may recall that one of Project Fear's biggest sticks against independence was that an independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU. The EU was endlessly promoted, during this campaign, as a positive entity for all the nations of the UK.

Roll on two years, and the Brexit referendum returned a result where the electorate in all 32 councils in Scotland voted in favour of Remain, to a national result of 62% in favour of the status quo.

Westminster, in June this year, spent a grand total of fifteen minutes - with filibustering by the Tories, and no Scottish MPs heard - to seek complete control over devolved powers in Holyrood.

You think any of this was fair, Edward?

This isn't a Union. It's the pi$$-poor 300-year-old remains of an English-dominated empire, subjugating those smaller than itself, wherever and whenever it can.

The political territory has changed immeasurably over the past four years ... a majority SNP government has a mandate for independence, the right to hold a referendum for independence, whenever the hell it likes.

Andy

Your quoting Lupussonic but adressing me?

Andy, Scottish indpendence...it's upto you. You voted on mass for the SNP in wave of nationalism in the past 2 general elections. Unfortunately that means that you have less to say in governenence of the United Kingdom as it stands, as usually Labour or Conservatives are in power. Your only chance to directly have more control is as king makers in a hung parliament. Maybe next time with Labour. Obviously, the SNP just use this fact at every opportunity, declaring the 'Tory government' isn't listening but the crying wolf of Sturgeon has become so tedious Andy nobody listens anymore, south of your border.

If you're happy to swap governance from London to Brussels, to become an 'ex state' in bigger Europa, accept decisions that may be not in your favour but another country then you go ahead. An independent Scotland in a fiscal and political European Union is an oxymoron. You can't have both now Andy. 30 years too late. Political union is the prerequisite of being in this single market. So who will you replace your centuries of national simmering bitterness with? Perhaps Junker or Tusk? You didn't directly elect them, and your national government didn't vote for them either.

In 2018 your identity can be British, independent Scottish or European. You have those 3 choice now. You can't be "independent Scottish in Europe". By the way, with Scotlands 5m population in a European parliament of 750 seats, you would have just 8 allocated MEP's to influence policy. You will trade democraticaly elected one person for 60,000 to one per 600,000 in Europa. Is that the democratic accountability you crave after arguing for more local devolution and governence for the past 20 years?

What is clear is that the hijacking of the single market by political unionists (Delors) has destabilised this corner of Europe.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-04-2018, 06:56 AM
Today's news is that the Advocate General to the European Court of Justice has stated his opinion that the Court will probably rule in favour of the motion, brought originally by Members of the Scots Parliament, but subscribed to by others, that Britain has the right to revoke it's Article 50 declaration unilaterally. The formal ruling, which will probably be along those lines, will follow later.

In practice, this will not happen as it is unlikely that any British government would revoke the Article 50 declaration without another referendum, and it would not be possible to hold another referendum before March 29th 2019. That is not what the ruling was sought for - what it does do is to pull the props out from one of the Quitling lies - the one that says, "We can't go back on the same terms - the EU will punish us for leaving" .

The way out of this national disaster, brought upon us by the Conservative Party trying to suck up to the near-Nazi voters, is to hold another referendum. To do this will take time and we would need to ask the 27 for approval to extend the deadline, but they have already stated that they will give it.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-04-2018, 11:48 AM
As of just now (16.44 GMT) the Government have been defeated by 311 to 307 on a motion to refer the motion to hold the Government in contempt of Parliament for refusing to table the legal advice received on the "backstop" to the Committee on Privileges. in another few minutes the vote substantive motion to hold the Government in contempt will be announced.

The BBC have just pulled out of hosting the television "debate" with Jeremy Corbyn that Mrs May had asked for.

Update: the Government have been held in contempt of Parliament by 311 votes to 295 on the main motion.

I don't recall this having happened before.

The Attorney General's legal advice to the Government must now be published in full. It is very bad for the Government because it states that Britain cannot exit the back stop without the consent of the EU, which means that all negotiations over trade with the EU are subject to the EU's veto.

heimfried
12-04-2018, 12:06 PM
News:

The government has been found in CONTEMPT of parliament.

Ayes - 311
Noes - 293
Majority - 18

Extraordinary scenes. This has never happened in recent history.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-04-2018, 12:38 PM
What we are seeing is the legislature taking back power from the executive.

Worth noting that the only reason the House of Commons is voting on the Government's Brexit deal at all is that Gina Miller brought a private action before the Supreme Court to require it to do so, and that when the Supremes agreed with her, Paul Dacre's "Daily Mail" called the Judges of the Supreme Court "Enemies of the people"

Edited to add: as I was typing that, the House voted in favour of Dominic Grieve's amendment to the Standing Orders - which in effect gives Parliament control of what happens when the Government's Brexit deal is voted down - by twenty votes.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-04-2018, 12:50 PM
I'd like to ba able to call this fun - but it's more like a slow motion train wreck.

Peerie Maa
12-04-2018, 12:55 PM
I'd like to ba able to call this fun - but it's more like a slow motion train wreck.

The train wreck started when Cameron caved to the Tory Little Englanders and UKIP without bothering to think through any of the consequences.

heimfried
12-04-2018, 12:55 PM
More news:

The Grieve amendment has passed - in the second embarrassing loss for the PM today.

Ayes 321
Nos 299


Which means, the parliament has a say in what will be next, if it has rejected Ms May's brexit deal.

SMARTINSEN
12-04-2018, 01:48 PM
Theresa May does not seem to be very good at this.

Chris249
12-04-2018, 02:26 PM
Andrew,

I've noted vitriolic spume seems to be your preferred mode of argument when you're stressed, and it's so frequent that I now regard it as one of your main characteristics. Your actions are neither Liberal nor one of a democrat.

That is bizarre, coming from someone who just labelled millions of people as "monsters".

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-04-2018, 05:01 PM
Today was a very good day.


It started with the Advocate General’s Opinion that the European Court Of Justice should rule that Britain can revoke the Article 50 declaration.


Which means, as a minimum, that the Quitlings can no longer claim that “the EU won’t let us rejoin” and at the best that we can just never leave.


It continued with the House of Commons passing Keir Starmer’s motion that the Government are in contempt of Parliament.


And the icing on the cake was the House of Commons passing Dominic Grieve’s amendment empowering Parliament to decide what to do if May’s deal is rejected.


We are, indeed, starting to Take Back Control.


From the Near Nazis.


It’s not the end. It’s not the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.

Sky Blue
12-04-2018, 06:02 PM
Be careful what you wish for, ACB. There will be no winners. If the plebiscite result is ignored the government invites a generation of low level sabotage, a citizen's veto (if you will). More than half of the country's voters will have been disenfranchised. Only fools would see such a result as "good news."

If any possibility existed that the government would not see the country out of the Union on a vote to Leave, the vote should never have taken place. Petitioners should have sought to declare the plebiscite unconstitutional in the abstract.

Peerie Maa
12-04-2018, 06:16 PM
Be careful what you wish for, ACB. There will be no winners. If the plebiscite result is ignored the government invites a generation of low level sabotage, a citizen's veto (if you will). More than half of the country's voters will have been disenfranchised. Only fools would see such a result as "good news."

If any possibility existed that the government would not see the country out of the Union on a vote to Leave, the vote should never have taken place. Petitioners should have sought to declare the plebiscite unconstitutional in the abstract.

That is correct.
A second referendum could put it to bed once and for all. A fully informed referendum, now that the disinformation and outright lies of the first one have been debunked.

AndyG
12-04-2018, 06:17 PM
Your quoting Lupussonic but adressing me?

Sorry Edward. My mistake.


... but the crying wolf of Sturgeon has become so tedious Andy nobody listens anymore, south of your border.

Enjoy the Daily Mail, much?

Andy

SMARTINSEN
12-04-2018, 06:20 PM
Hey Sky Blue, what is up with your buddy Nigel Farage quitting UKIP?

AndyG
12-04-2018, 06:20 PM
That is correct.
A second referendum could put it to bed once and for all. A fully informed referendum, now that the disinformation and outright lies of the first one have been debunked.

And that first one was merely 'advisory', recall.

Andy

TomF
12-04-2018, 06:22 PM
Things are looking up, indeed.

Peerie Maa
12-04-2018, 06:25 PM
And that first one was merely 'advisory', recall.

Andy

Unfortunately the Tory front bench did not have the bottle to do what Cameron failed to do, and declare the idea to not be in the UK's best interest. They are now reaping what they have sown.
.

Sky Blue
12-04-2018, 06:28 PM
There should be a second vote

No. There can't be a second vote. If Brexit is not going to occur, then this is where ACB is right. Parliament would need to slow walk its own veto, slowly grinding the process down to nothing, to a point where it stops entirely. All momentum dies. At that point you let 'em sue.

At most, Parliament might be compelled to take a vote to the effect that it won't be doing anything further. If that.

Harbor no illusions. The cost of a de facto "Remain" will be extremely steep. Get ready for deep, deep cynicism in your country the issue of whether consensual government exists there and the extent to which the state remains "democratic."

There will be more demagoguery, not less.

Peerie Maa
12-04-2018, 06:36 PM
No. There can't be a second vote. If Brexit is not going to occur, then this is where ACB is right. Parliament would need to slow walk its own veto, slowly grinding the process down to nothing, to a point where it stops entirely. All momentum dies. At that point you let 'em sue.

At most, Parliament might be compelled to take a vote to the effect that it won't be doing anything further. If that.

Harbor no illusions. The cost of a de facto "Remain" will be extremely steep. Get ready for deep, deep cynicism in your country the issue of whether consensual government exists there and the extent to which the state remains "democratic."

There will be more demagoguery, not less.

Parliament voting in the UK's best interest is the essence of our constitutional democratic government, that is why we elect MP's. MP's who are given the facilities and time to become better informed than Daily Wail and Sun readers. I would be more than happy for our MP's to do their job and decide on what is in the best interest of the UK, including Norn Iron, and the Scots, as well as England and Wales. My MP is holding a surgery on Thursday specifically to poll his constituents wishes on the issue. I intend to be there.

Sky Blue
12-04-2018, 06:38 PM
what is up with Nigel Farage quitting UKIP?

It's politics. The base of UKIP will not abandon questions about the scope and reach of Islam in a multiculturalist UK. That motive is more powerful in UKIP than Farage is.

Sky Blue
12-04-2018, 06:43 PM
The real challenge is that if the UK doesn't Leave, your disenfranchised body politic becomes even more susceptible to political figures promising to restore "power to the people."

We've already seen that a majority of voters in Britain can be persuaded to that call. The UK may Remain, but I don't think that really solves anything.

Peerie Maa
12-04-2018, 06:43 PM
It's politics. The base of UKIP will not abandon questions about the scope and reach of Islam in a multiculturalist UK. That motive is more powerful in UKIP than Farage is.

Yep, it a;ways was a grass roots racist organisation from the get go.

Sky Blue
12-04-2018, 06:50 PM
Yep, it a;ways was a grass roots racist organisation from the get go.

Call it what you like, but the bottom line is that you'll be getting ready for Tommy Robinson and more like him. A Remain de facto only will empower these people. Tommy Robinson is both a local grass roots organizer and an international political figure with substantial sympathy throughout the Anglosphere.

He's not a fringe extremist anymore. Tommy Robinson, MP?

Duncan Gibbs
12-04-2018, 07:19 PM
Call it what you like, but the bottom line is that you'll be getting ready for Tommy Robinson and more like him. A Remain de facto only will empower these people. Tommy Robinson is both a local grass roots organizer and an international political figure with substantial sympathy throughout the Anglosphere.

He's not a fringe extremist anymore. Tommy Robinson, MP?
You are sooooooo disconnected from any kind of fact, it's just not funny.

Under the Westminster Parliamentary system in Canada, the UK, New Zealand and in Australia, anyone convicted of a crime to a certain threshold is disqualified form standing for parliament. This, however, doesn't prevent them from voting, unless they are in prison at the time, unlike many states in the USA where a conviction a lifetime ban on enfranchisement.

Tommy can bleat all he likes. More than likely he'll end up back behind bars.

So Bluey, just stop saying chit because you 'can.' Stop being such a fraud.

Sky Blue
12-04-2018, 09:10 PM
Tommy Robinson can't be an MP

That was a throw-away line. Tommy Robinson is much more comfortable in the limelight and is more influential as a political commentator. In Parliament he'd just be another low level loudmouth sucking rules and voting on stuff he doesn't care much about. He can make much more money as an influencer anyway.

Duncan Gibbs
12-04-2018, 09:39 PM
That was a throw-away line.
... Along with all the rest of your lines.

;)

skuthorp
12-05-2018, 02:40 AM
So Brit Govt. ministers have been found in contempt of parliament for not releasing the terms of the Brexit agreement, and will now publish them all.

https://www.9news.com.au/2018/12/05/04/03/uk-government-contempt-of-parliament-brexit-legal-advice

Can't see an upside yet myself.

skaraborgcraft
12-05-2018, 03:03 AM
So Brit Govt. ministers have been found in contempt of parliament for not releasing the terms of the Brexit agreement, and will now publish them all.

https://www.9news.com.au/2018/12/05/04/03/uk-government-contempt-of-parliament-brexit-legal-advice

Can't see an upside yet myself.

There isnt an upside unless you just want proof May has been lying to parliament about regaining sovereignty. She will spend the next 5 days repeating all the nonsense she has been saying previously, and will lose the vote next Tuesday.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-05-2018, 07:02 AM
Hey Sky Blue, what is up with your buddy Nigel Farage quitting UKIP?

I'll quote Andrew Adonis:

"Farage on his way to the Conservatives".

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-05-2018, 07:09 AM
May got the only available deal that fits her own "red lines", doesn't breach the Good Friday Agreements (there are actually TWO agreements, one between the UK and Ireland and the other between the parties in Norn Iron) and doesn't expect the EU to sacrifice its fundamental principles.

It's rubbish, of course.

The alternatives are:

1. Commit economic and financial suicide by flouncing out with no agreements in place

2. Forget May's red lines and "do a Norway"- there are a huge number of problems with this starting with the City of London having no say in its regulation... etc...

3. Stay in on our original terms - which were "half out" anyway, no Schengen, no Euro, but we still got to vote..

I think most people, when offered a fresh chance to decide, as they will be, will choose 3.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-05-2018, 07:57 AM
The question asked is "Is Britain right to leave the EU".

"More people think that Britain was wrong to vote to leave the European Union than previously recorded, a YouGov poll for The Times reveals.
It found that 49 per cent thought Britain was wrong to vote to leave, the highest figure to date, while 38 per cent believed that Britain was right to choose to leave, a new low. This 11-point gap is the largest YouGov has had for the wrong decision having been made.

"Some 11 per cent of people who voted to leave in 2016 now think that the country made the incorrect decision, up from 8 per cent in mid-November.

"Support for Theresa May’s Brexit deal has faded since its high watermark last week. Now 23 per cent say that they support it, down from 27 per cent last Thursday, while 46 per cent oppose it, up from 45 per cent. The government’s reputation now rests on Brexit, with 66 per cent saying that it is the top issue facing the country, with health a distant second on 32 per cent.
The Tory voting intention lead has narrowed. They are on 40 per cent, unchanged on last week, but Labour is up three points to 38 per cent. The Liberal Democrats are on 9 per cent, down one point, and Ukip is on 4 per cent, up one.

"Jeremy Corbyn has not had a personal boost from the uncertainty, however. Some 35 per cent of the public still think that Mrs May is the best prime minister, while 24 per cent think Mr Corbyn would be better, with the largest number — 37 per cent — saying none of the above. YouGov interviewed 1,624 British adults on Monday and yesterday.|"

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47681163_10156142617866701_3081195510787211264_n.j pg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=f411c54ffae62a989ca8d85a4eb93ba8&oe=5C64551E

lupussonic
12-05-2018, 08:02 AM
^ Where is that from Andrew? Link?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-05-2018, 08:14 AM
^ Where is that from Andrew? Link?

The Times. Cut and paste of a cut and paste of a cut and paste.

Also found here:

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/yougov-poll-for-the-times-finds-brexit-was-wrong-choice-1-5807041

Osborne Russell
12-05-2018, 12:06 PM
Your hypothetical fisherman’s father was given his quota by Margaret Thatcher and he sold it to the Dutch or the Spanish, just as he sold the Council house that she sold him at a tiny fraction of its value.

Other European nations were wiser. Fish quotas are held by ports, not by fishermen.

Now he’s whinging and blaming “EU bureaucrats”.

So he wants to Brexit, and that gets him his fish and his house back?!? How?

Peerie Maa
12-05-2018, 12:28 PM
So he wants to Brexit, and that gets him his fish and his house back?!? How?

ACB was making a point that people are short sighted and greedy. The house sell off caused a shortage of social housing and starter homes, but that is about the UK government not the EU.
The fish quota issue highlights the issue that people blame the EU for decisions made by British Ministries that were not mandated by Brussels.
Another example, when interviewed about why he voted leave on farmer blamed the EU for late payment,

Farmers have endured significant financial hardship because of “unacceptable” delays by the British government in paying them money owed under the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy, according to MPs. Tens of thousands of farmers have suffered as a result of the late payments, which contributed last year to a 29 per cent fall in farmer’s incomes compared with 2015, the Commons environment, food and rural affairs committee found. The government has blamed the delays on changes to the CAP system. But in a report published on Tuesday, the committee told the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Rural Payments Agency — the department’s payment arm — to stop blaming “complexity in the CAP as an ongoing excuse or justification for delays in payments to farmers”. When in fact the EU is penalising the UK for delaying the payments.
The UK faces up to £1bn of penalties from the European Commission because of mistakes by government departments.
The National Audit Office says £398m of "financial corrections" have already been made and a further £601m has been set aside to cover further penalties.
The EC withholds the money from countries it believes has not met rules on allocating money from the EU.
Most of the penalties from 2008/9 were due to well publicised problems with agricultural schemes, the NAO says.

lupussonic
12-05-2018, 04:40 PM
The question asked is "Is Britain right to leave the EU".


https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47681163_10156142617866701_3081195510787211264_n.j pg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=f411c54ffae62a989ca8d85a4eb93ba8&oe=5C64551E

Nice graph Andrew. Here's another for you...Italy's GDP to debt ratio.

27556

https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

The UKs GDP to debt ratio is the same as the EU average at 85%.


..and another. Spains youth unemployment percentages.

27557

https://tradingeconomics.com/spain/youth-unemployment-rate (https://tradingeconomics.com/spain/youth-unemployment-rate)

Did you know that if Le Pen got in during the recent French election, the entire EU project would have folded? She lost 34% - 66% to Macron, decisive, but it was still 34%. No small beer.

My point with this is to illustrate that staying in the EU never was the solidly best choice for the UK because the EU is not a stable entity, and without a crystal ball no-one can predict 50 years into the future to say whether or not Brexit is a good choice or not. Not you, not me, not anyone.

The UK may have led a terrible referendum, and if it sticks to it's decision to leave it will no doubt hurt for many years, but histrionics about 'near-nazis' and racist Britain is a blinkered position to take if you refuse to weigh up what may happen in the future concerning the EU. It isn't all sweetness and light over there either.

skaraborgcraft
12-05-2018, 04:50 PM
^ Your not wrong Martin. In retrospect, i would have gone a lot further afield than living in the EU had i known how things were going to pan out.

Mays insistence on telling people that if they do not want to crash out of the EU without a deal, that they should vote for the deal on the table is already driving me bonkers. Brexit is not going to effect her standard of living, whatever the outcome, she just seems hell bent on getting her way, she has not changed much......

AndyG
12-05-2018, 04:50 PM
My point with this is to illustrate that staying in the EU never was the solidly best choice for the UK because the EU is not a stable entity

Please define stable? How stable has the UK been over the past couple of years, regarding investments, monetary value and security in British jobs?


without a crystal ball no-one can predict 50 years into the future to say whether or not Brexit is a good choice or not...

How high are you above mean sea level are you, luppusonic? I've a reasonably good prediction for 2068.

Andy

AndyG
12-05-2018, 04:55 PM
... she has not changed much......

Strong and Stable. The Maybot.

lupussonic
12-05-2018, 04:57 PM
Please define stable? How stable has the UK been over the past couple of years, regarding investments, monetary value and security in British jobs?



A whole lot better than half the population of Europe, particularly Med countries. Did you glean much from those graphs I posted?




How high are you above mean sea level are you, luppusonic? I've a reasonably good prediction for 2068.

Andy

What has sea level got to do with Economic-political Brexit? The Dutch sure aren't worried.

Less heat more light Andy.

Peerie Maa
12-05-2018, 05:06 PM
Nice graph Andrew. Here's another for you...Italy's GDP to debt ratio.

27556

https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

The UKs GDP to debt ratio is the same as the EU average at 85%.


..and another. Spains youth unemployment percentages.

27557

https://tradingeconomics.com/spain/youth-unemployment-rate (https://tradingeconomics.com/spain/youth-unemployment-rate)

Did you know that if Le Pen got in during the recent French election, the entire EU project would have folded? She lost 34% - 66% to Macron, decisive, but it was still 34%. No small beer.

My point with this is to illustrate that staying in the EU never was the solidly best choice for the UK because the EU is not a stable entity, and without a crystal ball no-one can predict 50 years into the future to say whether or not Brexit is a good choice or not. Not you, not me, not anyone.

The UK may have led a terrible referendum, and if it sticks to it's decision to leave it will no doubt hurt for many years, but histrionics about 'near-nazis' and racist Britain is a blinkered position to take if you refuse to weigh up what may happen in the future concerning the EU. It isn't all sweetness and light over there either.
That is like saying that the UK is unstable because Yorkshire and the Humber have the highest rate of unemployment.

lupussonic
12-05-2018, 05:13 PM
That is like saying that the UK is unstable because Yorkshire and the Humber have the highest rate of unemployment.

No it isn't.

Population of Yorkshire, 5.4M, not a country, does not have it's own government.

Population of Italy 60 M, is a country, has it's own government.

Peerie Maa
12-05-2018, 06:14 PM
No it isn't.

Population of Yorkshire, 5.4M, not a country, does not have it's own government.

Population of Italy 60 M, is a country, has it's own government.

Go to bed, you are too tired to think things through.

AndyG
12-05-2018, 07:12 PM
Go to bed, you are too tired to think things through.

But he does have plenty of apostrophes. :)

lupussonic
12-05-2018, 07:27 PM
Play the ball lads.

Peerie Maa
12-06-2018, 06:18 AM
Play the ball lads.

OK, Italy has been a crock ever since the war, I expect Spain was no better, so why are they a risk to the EU this year, an EU that has functioned for 50 years with those two nations dragging it down?
If you don't like the reference to the UK, how about the USA, a federation of nation sized states? By any measure Mississippi is a crock, but the federation still survives.

The map below shows each state’s dependence on federal assistance.
https://files.taxfoundation.org/20170123145044/FedAidtoStates-011-1024x916.png (https://files.taxfoundation.org/20170123145044/FedAidtoStates-011.png)


Your argument has no merit.

skaraborgcraft
12-06-2018, 07:19 AM
His argument has plenty of merit. Both the EU and the USA are going to implode over debts that can not and will not be repaid, both due to monetary policy driven by central banks.

Peerie Maa
12-06-2018, 08:36 AM
His argument has plenty of merit. Both the EU and the USA are going to implode over debts that can not and will not be repaid, both due to monetary policy driven by central banks.

Monetary policy which can be changed with a change of government.

lupussonic
12-06-2018, 09:35 AM
Monetary policy which can be changed with a change of government.

That is flimsy at best. I'm sure Italy will not suddenly emerge from financial crisis 6 months after a new government is elected. Italy and Spain may have had economic uncertainty for a while, but they had the same chances as the rest of the EU countries since the war.

Look, my point is that Remainers bleat on about how much of a disaster Brexit will be but never look the other way and take a cold hard stare at possible the threats to the EU in the future. The Middle East is important here, as it directly impacts EU fiscal and political policy... the fact that Le Pen almost brought down the EU dream has been glossed over here. What was her platform I wonder, and why did she get so many votes? Do you think that has nothing to do with the ME?

So, what is Russias gameplan in the ME? What is the future for Palestine? What will occur in Israel under the next US president? And if we are talking migrants to the EU, why is Africa exporting so many to the EU? What role is China playing there? What has the Wests role been in the Arab Spring countries? How has it been going over in those countries? These questions are important as immigration numbers fuel right wing factions in Europe.

And what of the USAs debt? Have we all forgotten 2008?

To simply say that leavers are nazi-racists is just childish. It's far more complicated than that, so complicated in fact, I could not bring myself to vote in the referendum.

I try to look both ways before crossing the street.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-06-2018, 09:39 AM
That looks like standing on the middle of the road baffled as to which direction might be safe....

skaraborgcraft
12-06-2018, 09:42 AM
Monetary policy which can be changed with a change of government.

Need i remind you about Greece?

lupussonic
12-06-2018, 10:06 AM
That looks like standing on the middle of the road baffled as to which direction might be safe....

Exactly, rather than steaming across without looking.

amish rob
12-06-2018, 10:11 AM
I appreciate the “on the ground” appraisals, as it were. Getting all info from the news is not always enough. Especially if, like me, you only listen to one news source. ;)

Also, this thread gives hope WE’RE not the only ones kicking ourselves in the shin.

Peace,
Robert

P.S. I do have some “family” (when you’re friends for more than 30 years, it changes, yeah?) with their family still in Cork. This whole deal is big news in their family.

Peerie Maa
12-06-2018, 10:35 AM
Need i remind you about Greece?

Nope, I left Greece off my short list because their financial disaster is of more recent date, even though it was caused by long term systemic tax evasion.

Peerie Maa
12-06-2018, 10:40 AM
That is flimsy at best. I'm sure Italy will not suddenly emerge from financial crisis 6 months after a new government is elected. Italy and Spain may have had economic uncertainty for a while, but they had the same chances as the rest of the EU countries since the war.

Look, my point is that Remainers bleat on about how much of a disaster Brexit will be but never look the other way and take a cold hard stare at possible the threats to the EU in the future. The Middle East is important here, as it directly impacts EU fiscal and political policy... the fact that Le Pen almost brought down the EU dream has been glossed over here. What was her platform I wonder, and why did she get so many votes? Do you think that has nothing to do with the ME?

So, what is Russias gameplan in the ME? What is the future for Palestine? What will occur in Israel under the next US president? And if we are talking migrants to the EU, why is Africa exporting so many to the EU? What role is China playing there? What has the Wests role been in the Arab Spring countries? How has it been going over in those countries? These questions are important as immigration numbers fuel right wing factions in Europe.

And what of the USAs debt? Have we all forgotten 2008?

To simply say that leavers are nazi-racists is just childish. It's far more complicated than that, so complicated in fact, I could not bring myself to vote in the referendum.

I try to look both ways before crossing the street.

Much better being on the inside p!$$ing ourt In the time scales that you are positing there is time for reform and appropriate reaction. Reforms that were already being spoken of.
Being a part of a bigger organisation, rather than a small island alone will help us better resist the next recession triggered by the US system of laissez fair capitalism.

Osborne Russell
12-06-2018, 10:45 AM
My point with this is to illustrate that staying in the EU never was the solidly best choice for the UK because the EU is not a stable entity, and without a crystal ball no-one can predict 50 years into the future to say whether or not Brexit is a good choice or not.

Couldn't you say the same about the United Kingdom? About any nation, any government? No crystal ball to say keeping the UK as it is will be a good choice 50 years from now.

There was a consensus for a long time that the EU was a good deal. Suddenly it's not, because it impinges on sovereignty. When did this impinging start? What form does it take? Is there some issue besides sovereignty?

Peerie Maa
12-06-2018, 10:57 AM
Couldn't you say the same about the United Kingdom? About any nation, any government? No crystal ball to say keeping the UK as it is will be a good choice 50 years from now.

There was a consensus for a long time that the EU was a good deal. Suddenly it's not, because it impinges on sovereignty. When did this impinging start? What form does it take? Is there some issue besides sovereignty?

Sovereignty is a red herring. All member states hafve their own elected government who enact their laws. All member states elect MEPs to the EU Parliament to represent their nations constituents, all member states send elected Ministers to the EU special interest committees, the equivalent of the member states ministries. We never lost sovereignty. The issue i9s that the far (for us) right wingers want a laissez fair hands off deregulated government so that they can make the industry serve their greed to the detriment of wage earners and the general populace. However the EU mitigates for regulations that serve the best interest of all citizens. Look at Ree Smog, arguing that the UK will do wonderfully well alone, whilst moving his business interests out of the UK and over to Ireland.

Osborne Russell
12-06-2018, 11:04 AM
Sure looks like that to me. I never see arguments that the EU should do this or that, only that Britain should leave. That implies that there is some incurable structural defect. But what?

skaraborgcraft
12-06-2018, 03:28 PM
. That implies that there is some incurable structural defect. But what?

Goes by the name of Mario Draghi

NickW
12-06-2018, 03:48 PM
Meanwhile, back in the Village ...

Lib Dem MP Stephen Lloyd has quit the party's group in Parliament so he can vote for Theresa May's Brexit deal.
The Eastbourne MP says he remains a member of the party, but wants to keep his promise to voters to respect the result of the referendum.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46470414

Now, Mr Lloyd is either a very principled politician in that he respects the majority view of his constituents or it's a smart career move that may help him keep his seat in the forthcoming General Election.

Nick

Peerie Maa
12-06-2018, 04:08 PM
Meanwhile, back in the Village ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46470414

Now, Mr Lloyd is either a very principled politician in that he respects the majority view of his constituents or it's a smart career move that may help him keep his seat in the forthcoming General Election.

Nick

Is he certain about that?
https://scontent.flhr3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47465001_1138118339691119_2365116684634685440_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-2.fna&oh=b83e1a2a822bf4fd102a0db2ef5d7eea&oe=5C6B0374

birlinn
12-06-2018, 04:10 PM
Time for that second referendum- the will of the people has changed.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-06-2018, 04:10 PM
Now, Mr Lloyd is either a very principled politician in that he respects the majority view of his constituents or it's a smart career move that may help him keep his seat in the forthcoming General Election.

Nick

It has long been th Liberal practice to support lost causes - see also St. Jude.

John Meachen
12-06-2018, 04:21 PM
Time for that second referendum- the will of the people has changed.

Mrs May will fight that for as long as she is in Downing Street.Which might lead to certain conclusions.

Rum_Pirate
12-06-2018, 05:44 PM
Time for that second referendum- the will of the people has changed. That is like saying there should be a re-run of the last Presidential election - the will of the people has changed (perhaps).

So should there be reruns of elections/referendums until one sector is satisfied with the vote outcome?

Was there a referendum to join the EU?

IIRC there was a referendum in 1975 to join the Common Market, but never a referendum to join the United Sates of Europe.

AndyG
12-06-2018, 06:01 PM
Mrs May will fight that for as long as she is in Downing Street.Which might lead to certain conclusions.

Gone on Wednesday? I could see that.

Andy

David G
12-07-2018, 12:25 AM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47681203_1183045648524582_8319270082333114368_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=3dd65d05bda9290902ac875d32354f2a&oe=5C9CBF0A

skaraborgcraft
12-07-2018, 02:25 AM
That is like saying there should be a re-run of the last Presidential election - the will of the people has changed (perhaps).

So should there be reruns of elections/referendums until one sector is satisfied with the vote outcome?

Was there a referendum to join the EU?

IIRC there was a referendum in 1975 to join the Common Market, but never a referendum to join the United Sates of Europe.

Sweden has not had a prime minister or functioning government since the election, the longest period in history. All the political blocks are trying to avoid having another election, as they know doing so will only help increase support for the left wing party they are trying to keep out. That is politics not giving people the say they voted for.

Peerie Maa
12-07-2018, 04:15 AM
That is like saying there should be a re-run of the last Presidential election - the will of the people has changed (perhaps).The Sacred US Constitution, pickled in aspic as it is does not allow it, short of impeachment.


So should there be reruns of elections/referendums until one sector is satisfied with the vote outcome?Loaded question. There should be a rerun if the electorate realises that they were conned by a bunch of incompetents and demands one. That referendum will be voted on by a fully informed set of voters (Sun readers excepted) and will deliver a result that should be relied on.


Was there a referendum to join the EU?

IIRC there was a referendum in 1975 to join the Common Market, but never a referendum to join the United Sates of Europe.The UK were involved in the debates on the evolution of the EU since 1975 through the democratic processes carried out by their elected representatives, so there is zero mileage in that argument.

beam reach
12-07-2018, 04:21 AM
https://scontent.flhr3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47465001_1138118339691119_2365116684634685440_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-2.fna&oh=b83e1a2a822bf4fd102a0db2ef5d7eea&oe=5C6B0374




Wow Nick ! May is TOAST !

oldcodger
12-07-2018, 05:00 AM
It is not that simple. Link to the full article below. YouGov has ignored the Northern Ireland constituencies. I can see why they might ignore the Sinn Fein MPs who do not take their seats in Parliament but the 10 DUP MPs do vote and are critical to the Government's survival. There is in addition 1 independent Unionist.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-

(https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-)

Peerie Maa
12-07-2018, 05:24 AM
It is not that simple. Link to the full article below. YouGov has ignored the Northern Ireland constituencies. I can see why they might ignore the Sinn Fein MPs who do not take their seats in Parliament but the 10 DUP MPs do vote and are critical to the Government's survival. There is in addition 1 independent Unionist.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-

(https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-)


The party's 10 MPs are expected to vote against the withdrawal deal amid anger over a proposed customs arrangement between the UK and the EU.
They say it will see Northern Ireland separated economically and politically from England, Scotland and Wales.
Speaking earlier during a debate on the Brexit deal in the Commons, DUP MP Sammy Wilson said Mrs May had "broken promises" made to her party to protect the constitutional integrity of the UK and if the deal went through it would create "further tensions".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46461880
They want the impossible, they want negotiations with the EU restarted.
Whether that puts them in the "No deal" or "Remain" camp is impossible to tell.

AndyG
12-07-2018, 05:32 AM
It puts them in both camps, Nick. NI politics was ever thus: totally inscrutable. ;)

I still like the alternative (crazy at first glance) arrangement, mentioned by some, that a hard border should be made at the English/Scottish border. NI and Scotland, both Remain areas, trading with the EU on EU terms, while England and Wales (Leave) sort out their position. The border with England has two main roads, a couple of rail lines, and far fewer minor roads than NI and Ireland has. It would be far easier to monitor.

Andy

birlinn
12-07-2018, 05:57 AM
Nice idea, Andy, but …..

AndyG
12-07-2018, 06:13 AM
... but?

;)

birlinn
12-07-2018, 06:17 AM
...but I can't see it happening.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-07-2018, 06:20 AM
Can I be the border guard at Penton bridge.?


Please.

birlinn
12-07-2018, 06:28 AM
All options look messy.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46393399

AndyG
12-07-2018, 07:16 AM
Can I be the border guard at Penton bridge.?


Please.

'Course you can. Is the pub any good? (I grew up near there).

Trump would love the idea of a Scottish/English hard border: we've got a bought-and-paid-for wall already in place.

Andy

skaraborgcraft
12-07-2018, 07:56 AM
: we've got a bought-and-paid-for wall already in place.

Andy

Didnt seem to work that well. Good idea though.

birlinn
12-07-2018, 08:34 AM
'Course you can. Is the pub any good? (I grew up near there).

Trump would love the idea of a Scottish/English hard border: we've got a bought-and-paid-for wall already in place.

Andy
All for it!
If you use Hadrian's wall, Scotland gains a lot of territory.

Peerie Maa
12-07-2018, 09:03 AM
... but?

;)

All of the Norn Iron Prods would start screaming "But we want to remain British, . .











. .except when we don't!"

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-07-2018, 03:56 PM
'Course you can. Is the pub any good? (I grew up near there).

Trump would love the idea of a Scottish/English hard border: we've got a bought-and-paid-for wall already in place.

Andy

Where's the pub? - Canonbie or Newcastleton?

heimfried
12-08-2018, 06:09 AM
An interesting piece to read:


[...]
Analysis of the forces that led to Brexit usually looks at issues over too short a time span. The English may once have been confident of their own nationality but this does not mean they were as tolerant of others as they sometimes like to suppose. Punch cartoons in the 19th century showed the Irish as murderous sub-humans. The Aliens Act of 1905, brought in by a Conservative government with an eye to winning votes in a general election the following year, aimed to exclude Jews fleeing Russian pogroms. A century later, the Conservative Party spent years trying to trump Tony Blair’s ability to win successive elections by experimenting with different types of dog-whistle anti-immigrant rhetoric, often combined with demonisation of the EU.

Conservative politicians such as David Cameron, whose career was to be destroyed by the outcome of the 2016 Brexit referendum, were highlighting the migrant threat a year before the vote, warning of “a swarm of people, coming from the Mediterranean, seeking a better life, wanting to come to Britain”. This showed real chutzpah, or cheek, since Cameron played a central role in launching the Nato war to overthrow Gaddafi in 2011 that turned Libya into a land of warlords and predatory militias, opening the way for migrants from North Africa to try to reach Europe from Libya in overcrowded boats and dinghies, often dying in the attempt.


A further feature of English nationalism will make it difficult to manoeuvre during the coming years of preoccupation with European relations. Small nations get used to inferior status and playing a weaker hand against opponents who hold most of the cards. British diplomats understand this, but a large part of public opinion in Britain, as in other former imperial nations, sees compromise as a sign of inexplicable weakness of will or as a treacherous stab in the back.

[... Patrick Cockburn, The Independent, https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-britain-nationalism-racism-class-religion-leave-remain-identity-a8672691.html ]

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-08-2018, 09:33 AM
An interesting piece to read:

I think it is a very shrewd picture of modern Britain. We have all sorts of demons and monsters whose existence we deny but which can be roused by a dog whistle...

amish rob
12-08-2018, 09:38 AM
I think it is a very shrewd picture of modern Britain. We have all sorts of demons and monsters whose existence we deny but which can be roused by a dog whistle...

So, we really AREN’T exceptional? :)

Peace,
Robert

birlinn
12-08-2018, 09:39 AM
So, we really AREN’T exceptional? :)

Peace,
Robert

Only the guns and lack of healthcare.

amish rob
12-08-2018, 09:41 AM
Only the guns and lack of healthcare.

Oh. I was joking. Trying to be light hearted.

Not looking for a dagger plunged into my heart.

Peace,
Robert

birlinn
12-08-2018, 09:44 AM
Oh dear Rob; please don't take it personally.

amish rob
12-08-2018, 10:10 AM
Oh dear Rob; please don't take it personally.

No, no. I don’t take it as a swipe at ME.

It’s just, as it sit here, broken and unable to work a “real” job, pining for my dead friend, dealing with my kids and their dead friend, this particular statement hit very close to home. ;)

Peace,
Debbie Downer

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-08-2018, 10:57 AM
So, we really AREN’T exceptional? :)

Peace,
Robert

It may be the other way round, Rob. Everyone except for the Russians, the Americans and the British had the exceptionalism knocked out of them by the events of 1937 to 1945 (I’m starting with the Marco Polo Bridge Incident in July 1937 both out of respect to the Chinese and because that led to Pearl Harbor)

British Exceptionalism is particularly virulent.

amish rob
12-08-2018, 11:14 AM
It may be the other way round, Rob. Everyone except for the Russians, the Americans and the British had the exceptionalism knocked out of them by the events of 1937 to 1945 (I’m starting with the Marco Polo Bridge Incident in July 1937 both out of respect to the Chinese and because that led to Pearl Harbor)

British Exceptionalism is particularly virulent.


I think that’s the fundamental problem, nowadays, Andrew. If I may call you Andrew?

The mindset of Us v. Them, which at base allows for the notion of exceptionalism, worked fine when we could pretend there was an Us and a Them.

What to do, though, when all the Usses And Thems are no longer separate, but are actually in partnership? How to feel superior to a, now equal as far as business is concerned, colleague? Because, as the world shrinks, we will continue to be forced to deal with the fact we are all on the same team, and all part of the same race.

It seems to be a race we are collectively losing, too. And we continue to expend energy on antiquated ideas and notions born in the era of actual cannon fodder.

Peace,
Just Plain Old Robert

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-08-2018, 11:46 AM
I think that’s the fundamental problem, nowadays, Andrew. If I may call you Andrew?

The mindset of Us v. Them, which at base allows for the notion of exceptionalism, worked fine when we could pretend there was an Us and a Them.

What to do, though, when all the Usses And Thems are no longer separate, but are actually in partnership? How to feel superior to a, now equal as far as business is concerned, colleague? Because, as the world shrinks, we will continue to be forced to deal with the fact we are all on the same team, and all part of the same race.

It seems to be a race we are collectively losing, too. And we continue to expend energy on antiquated ideas and notions born in the era of actual cannon fodder.

Peace,
Just Plain Old Robert

That is a very good post.

The easy way to get people to co-operate with each other is to find a Them, and point it out, at which point your bickering rabble magicallly coalesce into an Us.

amish rob
12-08-2018, 12:01 PM
That is a very good post.

The easy way to get people to co-operate with each other is to find a Them, and point it out, at which point your bickering rabble magicallly coalesce into an Us.

Aye. The heart of flags and nationalism and all that.

Which is not to say I think everyone is THE SAME. Nor should they be. But, deep down, at the heart of things, as humans, we all have our peculiar ways of securing the same basic needs.

Needs is another issue we need to solve. I have made some hard choices in regards to needs and wants of late. For me, I need to forus more on actual needs.

My desire to feel satisfaction in making things, for example, can be channeled into making food for others. And making things to help others meet their needs. I selfishly get to fulfill my wants to make, but what I make can now help provide for someone else’s needs, be it food, shelter, a bowl, a spoon... :) Those last were me making fun of me. I’m pretty silly, you know?

We are in an era that demands change, require paradigm shift, and the Brexit and the Trump and the Yellow Vests are all halting, fit riven starts toward the change.

We got two choices, and two ways to go, really.

Peace,
Hopeful, But Admittedly A Fool And Dreamer

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-08-2018, 12:50 PM
As I am sure we all know, it is said that changes to Facebook algorithms lie behind the gilets jaunes in France. I am listening to BBC Radio News and heard an interview with a French lady who said that one of Macron’s difficulties is that each and every one of the gilets jaunes wants to have an in depth conversation with him!

Duncan Gibbs
12-09-2018, 04:47 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdMcbLT3jSY

SMARTINSEN
12-10-2018, 07:25 AM
So the vote is off?

Peerie Maa
12-10-2018, 08:43 AM
So the vote is off?
Dunno for how long she can delay it.

13:40PM faced a 'catastrophic defeat'
The BBC's deputy political editor Norman Smith says:
"Many Tory MPs and ministers will be drawing a huge sigh of relief because the parliamentary arithmetic looked inescapable.
"Mrs May was heading for a catastrophic defeat.
"If she doesn't manage to get some sort of concession on the backstop the parliamentary arithmetic will still be staring her in the face."

amish rob
12-10-2018, 08:50 AM
Thank goodness we only screwed up and hired a ding dong President. :D

Seriously, though, this Brexit action is much larger news, and will have a larger impact on global affairs than who our head clown is.

It is nice to have the perspective of all the “on the spot” reporters. Cheers all for opining. I like reading this thread. It’s confusing and interesting.

And a little scary.

Peace,
Not Going Nowhere :)

birlinn
12-10-2018, 09:23 AM
However the EU say we can scrub the Brexit process and stay in if we want to.
Second referendum seems to be a bit more likely now.

Ian McColgin
12-10-2018, 10:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOILZ_D3aRg

Peerie Maa
12-10-2018, 10:14 AM
This about sums the whole thing up.

Not great really;
So I have decided to explain the Brexit process through the medium of cakes.
LEAVER: I want an omelette.
REMAINER: Right. It’s just we haven’t got any eggs.
LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are. [HE POINTS AT A CAKE]
REMAINER: They’re in the cake.
LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please.
REMAINER: But we voted in 1974 to put them into a cake.
LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it.
REMAINER: Icing is good.
LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I don’t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote.
DAVID CAMERON ENTERS.
DAVID CAMERON: OK.
DAVID CAMERON SCARPERS.
LEAVER: Right, where’s my omelette?
REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake.
LEAVER: Well, get them out.
EU: It’s our cake.
JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now.
REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Don’t you know how to get them out?
LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette.
REMAINER: But how?! Didn’t you give this any thought?
LEAVER: Saboteur! You’re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so there’s no reason why we can’t make them now.
THERESA MAY: It’s OK, I can do it.
REMAINER: How?
THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake.
REMAINER: Yeah, but…
LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we don’t have any cake? I didn’t say I didn’t want the cake, just the bits I don’t like.
EU: It’s our cake.
REMAINER: But you can’t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake.
LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. It’s just that they’re horrible.
REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens.
LEAVER: It’s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it.
REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake?
LEAVER: You lost, get over it.
THERESA MAY: By the way, I’ve started the clock on this.
REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan?
THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election.
REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out?
JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe.
EU: It’s our cake.
LEAVER: Where’s my omelette? I voted for an omelette.
REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what we’re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like.
LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT.
REMAINER: Fine, I’m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there.
LEAVER: You can’t. We’ve taken your freedom of movement.

Sky Blue
12-10-2018, 10:15 AM
However the EU say we can scrub the Brexit process and stay in if we want to

I read this morning about that ruling issued by a court comprised of unelected judges in some far off land and it seemed to me that it stands precisely for why Brexit took a majority and why leaving is in fact necessary.

birlinn
12-10-2018, 10:20 AM
Not a far-off land from the UK. SB- you can get there on the train!
Over 60% of the Scots voted remain.

TomF
12-10-2018, 10:23 AM
However the EU say we can scrub the Brexit process and stay in if we want to.Second referendum seems to be a bit more likely now.Yup. But what happens to any of the politicians when the "Remain" vote triumphs is a mystery.

Peerie Maa
12-10-2018, 11:31 AM
Yup. But what happens to any of the politicians when the "Remain" vote triumphs is a mystery.

Not a lot. There may be a new cabinet formed as the more rabid Brexiters are shuffled back to the back benches, if they don't resign first.

TomF
12-10-2018, 11:43 AM
And May, of course, will lose her head.

Peerie Maa
12-10-2018, 11:51 AM
And May, of course, will lose her head.

We tend to offer out ex PM's a punt up into the upper house.
I cannot really criticize May that much, she was handed a total fustercluck that was later shown to be worse than any one knew, so was doomed from the get go.
Cameron should have had his head on the block for wimping out to his back benches and UKIP.

bob winter
12-10-2018, 11:52 AM
I read this morning about that ruling issued by a court comprised of unelected judges in some far off land and it seemed to me that it stands precisely for why Brexit took a majority and why leaving is in fact necessary.

Electing judges makes zero sense.

Peerie Maa
12-10-2018, 12:39 PM
Electing judges makes zero sense.

Just so, it a stupid politicised idea.

TomF
12-10-2018, 02:03 PM
We tend to offer out ex PM's a punt up into the upper house.I cannot really criticize May that much, she was handed a total fustercluck that was later shown to be worse than any one knew, so was doomed from the get go.Cameron should have had his head on the block for wimping out to his back benches and UKIP.What I blame her for is working so hard to develop a BREXIT strategy which she never wanted, once the chicanery of the BREXIT "leave" campaign was exposed and admitted. It would be a different thing if the vote had been firmly and thumpingly decisive ... but y'know ...

Peerie Maa
12-10-2018, 02:37 PM
What I blame her for is working so hard to develop a BREXIT strategy which she never wanted, once the chicanery of the BREXIT "leave" campaign was exposed and admitted. It would be a different thing if the vote had been firmly and thumpingly decisive ... but y'know ...

I think that she had made a public commitment to leaving before the Irish border issue and all of the campaigning illegality hit the fan. Once a public commitment is made it is political suicide to U turn, especially as the winners do not give a toss about any of those issues.

SMARTINSEN
12-10-2018, 07:09 PM
So what is the deal wth the mace?

Gerarddm
12-10-2018, 07:19 PM
Right about now I am thinking that the old jazz standard Let's Call The Whole Thing Off applies.

Would dearly love to know what the Queen makes of all this. We shall never know, I assume.

Duncan Gibbs
12-10-2018, 07:29 PM
Would dearly love to know what the Queen makes of all this. We shall never know, I assume.
I would assume she is not amused.

Duncan Gibbs
12-10-2018, 07:37 PM
I read this morning about that ruling issued by a court comprised of unelected judges in some far off land and it seemed to me that it stands precisely for why Brexit took a majority and why leaving is in fact necessary.
Bluey don't like an independent judiciary; ergo, he doesn't like the doctrine of the separation of powers; ergo, he's all for dictatorships, like his smocking gun orange buffoon.

Bluey also doesn't like fact that "a majority" isn't actually who voted for Brexit when nearly 30% of voters failed to turn up.

Sky Blue
12-10-2018, 07:44 PM
In 1973, Tory PM Edward Heath took Britain into what was then called the "European Community."

In 1975, Labour PM Harold Wilson held a referendum on Britian's continuing membership in the European Community. 66% of the voting public voted to remain.

I wonder how many didn't vote in 1975? Was a second referendum ever offered or held?

Or was the second referendum actually what happened on 23 June 2016? Shouldn't the Remoaners be referring to their hoped-for "revote" as the "3rd referendum?"

beam reach
12-10-2018, 08:10 PM
Theresa May’s cowardly blunder may have saved us from Brexit


Never mind her personal fate – leave political obituaries for another day. The country has to ask whether curbing EU immigration still matters above all else. If so, then the only other option is crashing out with no deal, whoever is leader. But a no-deal crash is so dangerous, the great majority of MPs will absolutely reject inflicting an8% fall in living standards (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/nov/28/bank-of-england-says-no-deal-brexit-would-be-worse-than-2008-crisis), blocked ports (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/12/theresa-may-brexit-calais-business), empty supermarket shelves (https://www.theguardian.com/food/2018/sep/15/food-and-brexit-will-the-cupboard-be-bare-jay-rayner), medicine supply failures (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/23/brexit-patients-may-need-own-drug-stockpiles-pharma-execs-tell-commons-committee) and the pound falling through the floor – it even slumped on news of this postponement. As it plunged, the madness of the ultras was captured by John Redwood telling Bloomberg TV not to worry, as a no deal saves the £39bn divorce fee: “We won’t be crashing out, we’ll be cashing in.” Most MPs of all parties will refuse to underwrite such an act of suicidal idiocy.

Off she goes to Brussels to pretend some cosmetic rejigging will solve the Irish border backstop, though the taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, said on Monday that it was not possible (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46468409). If the EU gave way, Varadkar’s government would fall. Of course Brussels will rightly favour supporting him over propping up Britain’s disgraceful Brexit government.

An election is improbable but not impossible – though Jeremy Corbyn stands accused of failing to call a confidence vote. Any sane Tory would run a mile: if they offered themselves to the nation in their present shambolic state they would suffer a well-deserved defeat. They could agree no manifesto stance on Brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/eu-referendum), with their platforms a comical tug-of-war between at least four factions.

The country will not be intimidated by the absurd idea of people rioting against getting the chance to express themselves in a democratic vote. Watching the Ukip/Tommy Robinson march (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2018/dec/09/brexit-betrayal-march-in-central-london-video) on Sunday, I saw nothing much to fear. Outnumbered 10 times by anti-racist, anti-Brexit marchers, they were a familiar little group rallying to Robinson’s boasts that “no other politician will talk about Islam”. They were mostly men, mostly middle-aged. The most notable thing about them and their “Brexit betrayal” banners was the low turnout. The “Out! Out! Out!” shouters, familiar thugs failing to find a fight, were outnumbered by ordinary people from that ordinary strand that is not just British, but found in every country.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/10/theresa-may-cowardly-blunder-brexit-second-referendum

Duncan Gibbs
12-10-2018, 08:41 PM
In 1973, Tory PM Edward Heath took Britain into what was then called the "European Community."

In 1975, Labour PM Harold Wilson held a referendum on Britian's continuing membership in the European Community. 66% of the voting public voted to remain.

I wonder how many didn't vote in 1975? Was a second referendum ever offered or held?

Or was the second referendum actually what happened on 23 June 2016? Shouldn't the Remoaners be referring to their hoped-for "revote" as the "3rd referendum?"
Don't let facts get in the way of a good Brexit fantasy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membershi p_referendum

Slightly lower turnout, but a MUCH higher remain result, which should put to bed any whimpers on your part about the definition of a "majority." I doubt it will, since you appear so rusted onto being completely fact and evidence free.

And you use the past to neatly side step whether you support the idea and practice of the doctrine of the separation of powers, or not as the case may be.

Sky Blue
12-10-2018, 09:12 PM
https://youtu.be/s_P9PU5FcMQ

Duncan Gibbs
12-10-2018, 09:18 PM
I'll take that as a "No!" as you appear not to take the doctrine at all seriously.

BTW, look up 'Mary Jo Fisher' since you insist upon such a puerile method of argument, and ponder her fate.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-11-2018, 06:31 AM
I think the chances of a People's Vote aka a new referendum are improving. We will have to ask the EU for an extension of the deadline, as it will take time to organise a new vote.

Oh, and I think we will win. By a country mile. Which is why the Quitlings are so furiously raging together and imagining a vain thing, saying "a new vote is anti-democratic":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV6D32-ZTj0

beam reach
12-11-2018, 06:38 AM
[QUOTE=Andrew Craig-Bennett;5752199]I think the chances of a People's Vote aka a new referendum are improving. We will have to ask the EU for an extension of the deadline, as it will take time to organise a new vote.

Oh, and I think we will win. By a country mile. Which is why the Quitlings are so furiously raging together and imagining a vain thing, saying "a new vote is anti-democratic":

I think the remainers could win too. Not sure about the chances of getting a new ref . ?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-11-2018, 06:50 AM
A couple of years ago, soon after the Frauderendum, when we remainers were just starting to organise ourselves, I went to a talk by A.C. Grayling, and he expressed the opinion that the only way that the politicians could escape responsibility for the inevitable catastrophe would be to hold a new referendum. This seemed a pretty wild idea at the time, with the House of Commons about to pass the Article Fifty declaration overwhelmingly, with Labour under a three line whip to pass a Tory Bill (I still don't quite understand that) but as time has gone on the odds on a new referendum have continued to shorten. There is probably a majority for it in the Commons today.

The Conservative MP Anna Soubry just Tweeted "All party People's Vote press conference under way led by Labour's respected Margaret Beckett. Time for everyone to step up in the national interest. Only a public People's Vote can settle Brexit with Remain on the ballot paper. Libdems, Greens, Plaid Cymru and the SNP"


J.K. Rowling says: "My mentions have taught me that Brexit is like Trump's wall. For its devoted fans it has a symbolic value totally unrelated to its true cost or the glaring self interest of its proposers, whereas non-believers see nothing but a deranged and costly vanity project."

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-11-2018, 07:04 AM
And then of course there's this:


https://youtu.be/Tjp5OmoDYQM

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-11-2018, 07:08 AM
Oh, and this:


https://youtu.be/UYonSZ8s3_o

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-11-2018, 07:16 AM
https://youtu.be/svwslRDTyzU?t=5

Osborne Russell
12-11-2018, 09:22 AM
Funny vids. The situation still seems ominous to me.

There appear to be no serious arguments for Brexit. I opened this thread to solicit them.

There's a lot of procedural dickering which occupies everyone's attention, but underneath, the tribal drumbeat goes on.

It would be a major structural change to the UK and to Europe. The people that want it don't care about costs and benefits, they just have strong feelings, like the boys in Lord Of The Flies.

I guess the deal is, you can't make that go away, so it's back to the dickering, to contain it the best you can. Just don't forget, how thin is the veneer of civilization.

I don't see the efficacy of another referendum. Why can't Parliament just say no, end of story. Go back to your beer and football.

Peerie Maa
12-11-2018, 10:27 AM
I don't see the efficacy of another referendum. Why can't Parliament just say no, end of story.

They can, and they might, but it would take some bottle. Easier to let the country decide.

TomF
12-11-2018, 10:35 AM
They can, and they might, but it would take some bottle. Easier to let the country decide.Yeah. I don't think many countries would have politicians with enough backbone to simply make the choice, especially when by championing a public referendum and committing to implement its outcome (presumably, if the popular vote is clear!) they can position themselves as True Defenders of Democratic Processes.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-11-2018, 10:41 AM
Bookies now offering 11/10 on another referendum.

TomF
12-11-2018, 10:44 AM
I'm surprised that the bookies aren't thinking it even more likely.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-11-2018, 10:53 AM
I'm surprised that the bookies aren't thinking it even more likely.

My informant is Lord Adonis, whom I would not have thought of as a betting man, but, as the political heir to Roy Jenkins, he is certainly a Remaining man.

amish rob
12-11-2018, 10:58 AM
My informant is Lord Adonis, whom I would not have thought of as a betting man, but, as the political heir to Roy Jenkins, he is certainly a Remaining man.

If only my name were Lord Adonis...

What a fantastic monniker, eh? :)

Peace,
Robert (Lord Doofus :))

TomF
12-11-2018, 11:01 AM
Yeah. Would be hard for many (present company excepted) to live up to the publicity info, eh?

amish rob
12-11-2018, 11:15 AM
Yeah. Would be hard for many (present company excepted) to live up to the publicity info, eh?
It sounds like a name that is so cool, it’s made up. Like, that’s the name you wanted as a kid, because it sounds AWESOME!

Well, I mean, being Lord anything probably ain’t a shabby gig...

Still, Lord Board doesn’t sound quite as cool, eh? Lord Bodger. Lord Zumbits. See? Not that cool.

Peace,
Oh, Lord...

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-11-2018, 11:36 AM
Andrew Adonis is my political idol, but that is because he is the political heir of Roy Jenkins.

His title is a particularly bad guide to his background, but it definitely isn't made up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Adonis,_Baron_Adonis

amish rob
12-11-2018, 11:41 AM
Andrew Adonis is my political idol, but that is because he is the political heir of Roy Jenkins.

His title is a particularly bad guide to his background, but it definitely isn't made up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Adonis,_Baron_Adonis

Geez. It’s like someone wrote my story with a different name. :D

I find his world so unrelatable. I wouldn’t even know how to act around a Lord.

Well, actually I would. Stop staring and get back to work! Hahaha.

Peace,
Robert

beam reach
12-11-2018, 01:19 PM
Bookies now offering 11/10 on another referendum.


I do hope it happens Andrew , for everyone`s sake.

Pandora`s box should be closed for good.

NickW
12-11-2018, 02:19 PM
They can, and they might, but it would take some bottle. Easier to let the country decide.


Yeah. I don't think many countries would have politicians with enough backbone to simply make the choice, especially when by championing a public referendum and committing to implement its outcome (presumably, if the popular vote is clear!) they can position themselves as True Defenders of Democratic Processes.

The simple reason is that if they did revoke Article 50 as John Major has urged them to do today, and Labour manage to swing a vote of no confidence leading to a General Election, those MP's who voted for revocation would most probably find themselves thrown off the gravy train. It's a well known fact, the most important consideration for a politician is "How can I make sure I'm re-elected?"

Nick

beam reach
12-11-2018, 02:23 PM
"How can I make sure I'm re-elected?"

skuthorp
12-11-2018, 02:29 PM
This may seem like another 3 ring political circus, but has the potential, along with donald, to spark a world wide recession if not worse.

beam reach
12-11-2018, 02:39 PM
This may seem like another 3 ring political circus, but has the potential, along with donald, to spark a world wide recession if not worse.

Indeed it does!

beam reach
12-11-2018, 03:22 PM
UK Political Parties Favor Motion of Censure against Theresa May


Representatives from four British political organizations urged Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn on Tuesday to join forces and present a censorship motion against Prime Minister Theresa May, due to her steps in the process to exit the European Union (EU), which is known as Brexit.

Vince Cable, from the Liberal Democratic Party; Ian Blackford, from the Scottish Nationalist Party; Elizabeth Robert, from the Welsh Plaid Cymru; and Caroline Lucas, from the Green Ecologist Party, sent a letter to Corbyn, who is the leader of the UK largest opposition organization, to express their discontent with the administration of the Conservative Party.

The letter, published on local media, said that those organizations criticize May over the suspension of an important vote in the House of Commons on the agreement on the Brexit, and they assured that if the meeting were held on Tuesday, the parlamentarians would have rejected it.

This would be a great defeat for the British head of Government.

However, Corbyn pointed out that in order to overthrow the Conservative government, it is necessary to present the appeal at the right time; that is, after May returns from several meetings with EU leaders and confidence in her has diminished further, even in the ranks of her own party.

The divisions around the Brexit make it hard to determine the exact number of lawmaker who would support the motion, but Corbyn considers that to present it now would not be as effective as after May returns to the UK after talking to some EU representatives on the topic.

Osborne Russell
12-11-2018, 04:08 PM
They can, and they might, but it would take some bottle. Easier to let the country decide.

What's the point of having a Parliament that doesn't decide anything?

Peerie Maa
12-11-2018, 04:14 PM
What's the point of having a Parliament that doesn't decide anything?

See post #224.
However, parliament should have decides to tell Cameron and the Little Englanders to stuff it right at the beginning.

Sky Blue
12-11-2018, 08:02 PM
There is speculation now that 48 letters are in.

lupussonic
12-11-2018, 10:05 PM
It makes sense to have a vote again now we know what the deal is, no?

Caroline Lucas's argument is convincing.

Bluey, your Smog is unelectable.

Sky Blue
12-12-2018, 12:47 AM
Rees-Mogg's value is as a whip, not PM. 3 weeks ago, British media uniformly sneered at him for failing to marshal 48 letters after somewhat rudely bringing the matter up in the Commons. Roundly castigated as a failed effort, Rees-Mogg calmly replied that it would take more time, but it would happen soon enough.

It is rumoured that the Committee now possesses 53 letters.

skuthorp
12-12-2018, 12:56 AM
What's the point of having a Parliament that doesn't decide anything?
…..and that is a very good reason why there is so little confidence and trust in our legislators in much of the west. Locally our State election saw the left leaning government win by a bigger margin than before and the conservatives reduct to a skeleton crew, and the common meme from the voters was, "they get things done".

birlinn
12-12-2018, 04:27 AM
Christmas? Chaos more likely.

Peerie Maa
12-12-2018, 04:40 AM
Christmas? Chaos more likely.

Yes, it will be about a calendar month before sorting out the fustercluck can recommence. The entire process has been one of cutting noses off to spite faces ever since Cameron was PM, this is just another example.

PeterSibley
12-12-2018, 06:02 AM
An Australian perspective .https://www.australianforeignaffairs.com/afaweekly/the-brexit-limbo?utm_medium=comment+piece&utm_source=AFA+Weekly+newsletter&utm_campaign=The-Brexit-l

https://www.australianforeignaffairs.com/sites/default/files/creatives/afaweekly2.jpg (https://www.australianforeignaffairs.com/afa-weekly)
12 DECEMBER 2018WITH JONATHAN PEARLMANThe Brexit limbo

Last week, a friend in London sent me a photo of her costume for her office Christmas party. She wore a blue beret with yellow stars pinned on it, and a placard saying: “All I want for Christmas is EU.” Unfortunately, my friend – like the rest of the British population – will not see her wishes fulfilled this festive season. Britain is paralysed and divided, and its self-imposed decline will have consequences for Australia.
Two years ago, the UK narrowly opted for a deluded grasp at some utopian vision, in which tighter controls over trade regulations and borders would not only compensate for the ensuing economic losses, but also restore imperial pride – a return to “Great Britain”, as Boris Johnson put it. The nation, or 51.9 per cent of it, bought the promise and left the details (and the reality) for another day – and now that day has come.
British prime minister Theresa May, a former Remainer now entrusted to oversee the exit, spent 524 days devising a 585-page agreement with the EU. Still, it allowed for a transition period of at least two years and left crucial decisions unresolved.
Hardline Brexiteers hate the deal. This is mainly because, to avoid an impasse over the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, British trade would effectively be subject to EU rules until the issue is resolved, which could be indefinitely.
On Monday, May delayed a vote on the deal because most MPs, including the Remainers, oppose it. This has left Britain closer to a “no deal” Brexit when it formally leaves the EU on 29 March 2019. Chaos could follow, particularly if the EU decides to punish Britain for its departure: planes may be stuck in Heathrow because airlines would lose their licences, businesses might suddenly have to complete reams of customs and duties paperwork, and Brits may suddenly have to pay international roaming charges in the EU.
For now, the fate of the deal remains uncertain. Ultimately, Brexit is likely to leave the country weaker, poorer and smaller. Scotland has indicated it might secede. A poll last week found 53 per cent of Scots preferred independence to remaining in a Britain outside the EU. In June, the Financial Times found that Brexit was already costing the average household £870 a year, and the amount was increasing. Britain’s Treasury believes the losses will worsen after it leaves, and that Brexit will shave up to 4 per cent off its GDP over the next fifteen years.
None of this is in Britain’s interests, or Australia’s. Since World War II, Australia’s primary security ally has been the United States, but it retains close relations with Britain and benefits from its economic and military strength. The two countries share intelligence and defence links, as well as cultural, historic and demographic ties that frequently contribute to a shared outlook on world affairs. Unlike the US, Britain is not a superpower and therefore cannot freely impose its will on the international stage – so, like Australia, its prosperity depends on a global order based on rules and institutions.
Still, several prominent Australian political figures backed Brexit, buoyed by scepticism towards multinational groupings like the EU. Former prime minister John Howard welcomed the referendum result as a way for Britain to “regain control of their borders” and implied it was a “reassertion of British sovereignty”. Tony Abbott opposed Brexit before the referendum, but later said he was “quietly thrilled that the British people have resolved to claim back their country”.
Yet Britain, the world’s fifth-wealthiest country, never abandoned its national sovereignty. It retained the pound, the royal family and much of the imperial system. It has its own parliament (including hereditary peers) and an executive, which could have tried to negotiate new terms with the EU (as David Cameron attempted to do).
Yes, the EU – like any mammoth institution – has sizeable faults. It is agonisingly bureaucratic, and interminably divided over whether to act like a united nation or a trade grouping. But these are not reasons to quit, especially since Britain, one of the EU’s most powerful members, was well positioned to pursue change from the inside.
Now, Great Britain is in limbo. A second referendum seems unlikely, as does a “hard Brexit”, in which the nation severs all trade and customs ties with the EU. Yet May’s proposal – and her future – seem doomed.
The EU has never had much vocal support. It has no sports team, or shared language. It enables commerce, lowers borders and encourages cooperation in a part of the world that experienced two cataclysmic wars within a generation. It was not the sort of thing that one became excited about, until it was upended.

Rum_Pirate
12-12-2018, 07:49 AM
An Australian perspective .https://www.australianforeignaffairs.com/afaweekly/the-brexit-limbo?utm_medium=comment+piece&utm_source=AFA+Weekly+newsletter&utm_campaign=The-Brexit-l

12 DECEMBER 2018
(https://www.australianforeignaffairs.com/afaweekly/the-brexit-limbo?utm_medium=comment+piece&utm_source=AFA+Weekly+newsletter&utm_campaign=The-Brexit-l)

The Brexit limbo

Last week, a friend in London sent me a photo of her costume for her office Christmas party. She wore a blue beret with yellow stars pinned on it, and a placard saying: “All I want for Christmas is EU.” Unfortunately, my friend – like the rest of the British population – will not see her wishes fulfilled this festive season. Britain is paralysed and divided, and its self-imposed decline will have consequences for Australia.
Two years ago, the UK narrowly opted for a deluded grasp at some utopian vision, in which tighter controls over trade regulations and borders would not only compensate for the ensuing economic losses, but also restore imperial pride – a return to “Great Britain”, as Boris Johnson put it. The nation, or 51.9 per cent of it, bought the promise and left the details (and the reality) for another day – and now that day has come.
British prime minister Theresa May, a former Remainer now entrusted to oversee the exit, spent 524 days devising a 585-page agreement with the EU. Still, it allowed for a transition period of at least two years and left crucial decisions unresolved.
Hardline Brexiteers hate the deal. This is mainly because, to avoid an impasse over the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, British trade would effectively be subject to EU rules until the issue is resolved, which could be indefinitely.
On Monday, May delayed a vote on the deal because most MPs, including the Remainers, oppose it. This has left Britain closer to a “no deal” Brexit when it formally leaves the EU on 29 March 2019. Chaos could follow, particularly if the EU decides to punish Britain for its departure: planes may be stuck in Heathrow because airlines would lose their licences, businesses might suddenly have to complete reams of customs and duties paperwork, and Brits may suddenly have to pay international roaming charges in the EU.
For now, the fate of the deal remains uncertain. Ultimately, Brexit is likely to leave the country weaker, poorer and smaller. Scotland has indicated it might secede. A poll last week found 53 per cent of Scots preferred independence to remaining in a Britain outside the EU. In June, the Financial Times found that Brexit was already costing the average household £870 a year, and the amount was increasing. Britain’s Treasury believes the losses will worsen after it leaves, and that Brexit will shave up to 4 per cent off its GDP over the next fifteen years.
None of this is in Britain’s interests, or Australia’s. Since World War II, Australia’s primary security ally has been the United States, but it retains close relations with Britain and benefits from its economic and military strength. The two countries share intelligence and defence links, as well as cultural, historic and demographic ties that frequently contribute to a shared outlook on world affairs. Unlike the US, Britain is not a superpower and therefore cannot freely impose its will on the international stage – so, like Australia, its prosperity depends on a global order based on rules and institutions.
Still, several prominent Australian political figures backed Brexit, buoyed by scepticism towards multinational groupings like the EU. Former prime minister John Howard welcomed the referendum result as a way for Britain to “regain control of their borders” and implied it was a “reassertion of British sovereignty”. Tony Abbott opposed Brexit before the referendum, but later said he was “quietly thrilled that the British people have resolved to claim back their country”.
Yet Britain, the world’s fifth-wealthiest country, never abandoned its national sovereignty. It retained the pound, the royal family and much of the imperial system. It has its own parliament (including hereditary peers) and an executive, which could have tried to negotiate new terms with the EU (as David Cameron attempted to do).
Yes, the EU – like any mammoth institution – has sizeable faults. It is agonisingly bureaucratic, and interminably divided over whether to act like a united nation or a trade grouping. But these are not reasons to quit, especially since Britain, one of the EU’s most powerful members, was well positioned to pursue change from the inside.
Now, Great Britain is in limbo. A second referendum seems unlikely, as does a “hard Brexit”, in which the nation severs all trade and customs ties with the EU. Yet May’s proposal – and her future – seem doomed.
The EU has never had much vocal support. It has no sports team, or shared language. It enables commerce, lowers borders and encourages cooperation in a part of the world that experienced two cataclysmic wars within a generation. It was not the sort of thing that one became excited about, until it was upended.



...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE

Osborne Russell
12-12-2018, 11:43 AM
It makes sense to have a vote again now we know what the deal is, no?


Every time Parliament doesn't want to face something, you have a referendum? After the referendum, then they have no more excuses? Then they must act . . . like now?

Sure you want to go down that road?

Rum_Pirate
12-12-2018, 11:55 AM
It makes sense to have a vote again now we know what the deal is, no?

Caroline Lucas's argument is convincing.

Bluey, your Smog is unelectable.

Can you provide a link to a site showing it in clear terms what the deal actually is?

Peerie Maa
12-12-2018, 12:15 PM
Can you provide a link to a site showing it in clear terms what the deal actually is?

It is 585 pages long
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46208764

SMARTINSEN
12-12-2018, 04:30 PM
Update me.

So now what?

May has survived, and will stay on, presumably? But her deal cannot pass, does a second referendum become more likely? A new election?

johnw
12-12-2018, 05:09 PM
Now that May has survived a no confidence vote, is there any way out?

C. Ross
12-12-2018, 05:16 PM
The chaos is all her doing, and that of Cameron.

How should it have been done, and why are none of the hard Brexiteers around to finish what they started?

Peerie Maa
12-12-2018, 05:28 PM
How should it have been done, and why are none of the hard Brexiteers around to finish what they started?

There are international agreements on the Irish border that make a hard BREXIT nigh on impossible.
This from the leader of the Irish opposition party nails it

Mr Martin told the Dáil (Irish parliament) on Wednesday that there must be an ability to put the national interest above party interest.
"The only thing which is clear is that no one has the faintest idea what the course of Brexit will be in the coming weeks and months, and potentially for much longer than that," he said.
"With the exception of the fundamentalist fringe of the Conservative Party and, unfortunately, the DUP, all accept the idea of a guaranteed open border in Ireland - but they do not agree on the wider issue of the UK's relationship with the European Union," he said referring to the Backstop, the insurance policy to avoid a return to a hard border after Brexit.


Q&A: The Irish border Brexit backstop (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-44615404)

The DUP and Brexiteer MPs have vowed to reject the deal unless the backstop is ditched (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46335118), because they say any differences for Northern Ireland could threaten the union and damage the economy.
That is because if the backstop took effect, Northern Ireland alone would align with the EU single market in some areas, meaning new regulatory barriers between GB and NI - Labour has described this as a "de facto Irish Sea border".

Some politicians both want their cake and to eat it.

obscured by clouds
12-12-2018, 05:41 PM
and Ree-Smaug still wants the PM to resign. :rolleyes:

C. Ross
12-12-2018, 05:43 PM
I was aware of the Irish issue and even posted about it here.

Skaraborgcraft says the chaos is May’s and Cameron’s fault and I’d be interested in a hard Brexiteer’s answer why the advocates are bearing no responsibility for consummation, being content only to lob bombs as they did leading to the referendum.

It appears to me that Brexit was untenable and hard Brexit an impossibility without crashing the UK economy and the still tenuous peace and prosperity in Northern Ireland and the relationship between Ireland and the UK. And Scotland is yet another loser in the deal!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-13-2018, 04:56 AM
This is a very good article; written before the result of the Tory leadership challenge but accurate.

Its important to note that May cannot be challenged again for a year, and that she has said she will stand down before the next election.

That the Tories have gone mad is beyond dispute.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/12/12/we-re-the-hostages-of-a-tory-party-that-has-gone-insane

isla
12-13-2018, 05:47 AM
As Andrew says, May cannot be challenged on her leadership of the Conservative Party for another twelve months. However, it is still possible for the opposition parties to table a motion of no confidence, or censure motion, on the whole government. This is a motion moved in the House of Commons with the wording: 'That this House has no confidence in HM Government'.

If such a motion was passed by a majority of the house it could trigger an early general election.

Peerie Maa
12-13-2018, 06:51 AM
I was aware of the Irish issue and even posted about it here.

Skaraborgcraft says the chaos is May’s and Cameron’s fault and I’d be interested in a hard Brexiteer’s answer why the advocates are bearing no responsibility for consummation, being content only to lob bombs as they did leading to the referendum.

It appears to me that Brexit was untenable and hard Brexit an impossibility without crashing the UK economy and the still tenuous peace and prosperity in Northern Ireland and the relationship between Ireland and the UK. And Scotland is yet another loser in the deal!

Just so. It boils down to incompetence on Cameron's part and on the part of the MP's and campaigners that they did not realise the implications of the Irish Border issue. As to the economy, shakier ground to predict the effect and for how long the damage will last.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-13-2018, 07:47 AM
And none of the blame attaches to Dacre or Murdoch?

Forty five years of continuous fact-free hatred.