PDA

View Full Version : Looks Like Russia is Making a Move in The Ukraine



Arizona Bay
11-25-2018, 04:05 PM
While Donnie doughnuts flails away out on the links...


MOSCOW (AP) — The Latest on Russian-Ukrainian naval tensions near Crimea (all times local):
11:30 p.m.
The Russian Federal Security Service says that it has evidence that Ukraine is responsible for clashes between Russian and Ukrainian ships in the Black Sea.
The agency, known as the FSB, said in a statement Sunday night that “there is irrefutable evidence that Kiev prepared and orchestrated provocations ... in the Black Sea. These materials will soon be made public.”
The Ukrainian navy says Russian ships fired on and seized two of its artillery ships Sunday following an incident near Crimea, which Moscow annexed from Kiev in 2014. A tugboat was also seized.
Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said on Facebook that the incident was characteristic of Ukrainian behavior: provoke, pressure and blame for aggression.
___
10:55 p.m.
Ukraine says that the number of boats hit by Russian fire has increased to two, with two crew members wounded, and that both vessels have been seized by Russia.
The Ukrainian navy made the announcement in a statement late Sunday. Russia didn’t immediately comment on the claims.
Hours earlier, Ukraine said that a Russian coast guard vessel rammed into a Ukrainian navy tugboat, resulting in damage to the ship’s engines and hull. The incident took place Sunday as three Ukrainian naval ships were transiting from Odessa on the Black Sea to Mariupol in the Sea of Azov, via the Kerch Strait.
Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine in 2014.
___
10:40 p.m.
The spokesman for Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko says that the leader is convening an emergency meeting of the military’s top brass amid tensions with Russia near the Crimean Peninsula.
Svyatoslav Tsegolko made the announcement late Sunday in a tweet after the Ukrainian navy said that Russian ships opened fire on Ukrainian vessels, hitting one of them and injuring a crew member, in the Kerch Strait. Russia didn’t immediately comment on the claims.
Hours earlier, Ukraine said that a Russian coast guard vessel rammed into a Ukrainian navy tugboat, resulting in damage to the ship’s engines and hull. The incident took place Sunday as three Ukrainian naval ships were transiting from Odessa on the Black Sea to Mariupol in the Sea of Azov, via the Kerch Strait.
Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine in 2014.
___
10:25 p.m.
The Ukrainian navy says that a Russian ship has opened fire on Ukrainian naval vessels in the Black Sea following a tense standoff off the coast of the Crimean Peninsula.
The Ukrainian navy said in a statement posted on Facebook on Sunday evening that one of its small artillery boats, the Berdyansk, was damaged and one crew member was injured.
Earlier, Ukraine said that a Russian coast guard vessel rammed into a Ukrainian navy tugboat, resulting in damage to the ship’s engines and hull. The incident took place Sunday as three Ukrainian naval ships were transiting from Odessa on the Black Sea to Mariupol in the Sea of Azov, via the Kerch Strait.
___
1:45 p.m.
The Ukrainian navy says a Russian coast guard vessel rammed a Ukrainian navy tugboat, resulting in damage to the ship’s engines and hull.
The incident took place Sunday as three Ukrainian naval ships were transiting from Odessa on the Black Sea to Mariupol in the Sea of Azov, via the Kerch Strait.
Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) told Russian news agencies Sunday that the Ukrainian ships held their course even though the area was temporarily closed.
“Their goal is clear,” an FSB statement said, “to create a conflict situation in the region.” The statement did not mention ramming the Ukrainian tugboat.
Though a 2003 treaty designates the Kerch Strait and Sea of Azov as shared territorial waters, Russia has been asserting greater control over the passage since 2015.

johnw
11-25-2018, 04:12 PM
So, they want to shut down Ukrainian access to the sea. That would put some pressure on Ukraine. I'm not sure how economically important that is, but I'm sure it's not nothing.

skaraborgcraft
11-25-2018, 04:17 PM
So, they want to shut down Ukrainian access to the sea.

No, they do not. Is your sweeping false statements just to provoke? There is a UN treaty regarding access and rules in the straight, apparently on this occasion, the Ukraine party has violated that.

TomF
11-25-2018, 04:18 PM
Well. Imagine if American foreign policy were confused, or worse, compromised.

birlinn
11-25-2018, 04:27 PM
I don't think the UN treaty covered the annexation of the Crimea by Russia, skaraborg.

StevenBauer
11-25-2018, 04:53 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46338671


The shallow Sea of Azov lies east of Crimea, and south of the Ukrainian regions partially seized by pro-Russian separatists.
The two Ukrainian ports on its northern shore - Berdyansk and Mariupol - are key for exporting grain and produce such as steel, also for importing coal.
In 2003, Ukraine and Russia signed a treaty that defined the Sea of Azov as internal waters of the two countries. The treaty guaranteed free navigation to all Ukrainian and Russian vessels




But Russia has recently begun inspecting all vessels going to or from Ukrainian ports. Earlier this month, the EU warned it would take "targeted measures" to address the issue.
"The situation in the Sea of Azov is damaging not only the Ukrainian economy, but also so many vessels that are flying the European Union member states' flags," EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini said.
The Russian inspections began soon after Ukraine detained a fishing vessel from Russian-annexed Crimea in March.
Moscow also says the inspections of the vessels are necessary for security reasons, pointing to a potential threat to the bridge from Ukrainian radicals.

More than 10,000 people have been killed in the eastern Donetsk and Luhansk region since separatists moved against the Ukrainian state in April 2014.
Ukraine and the West accuse Russia of sending its troops to the region and arming the separatists.
Moscow denies this, but admits that Russian "volunteers" are helping the rebels.

johnw
11-25-2018, 04:58 PM
No, they do not. Is your sweeping false statements just to provoke? There is a UN treaty regarding access and rules in the straight, apparently on this occasion, the Ukraine party has violated that.

In 2003, Ukraine and Russia signed a treaty that defined the Sea of Azov as internal waters of the two countries. The treaty guaranteed free navigation to all Ukrainian and Russian vessels

If that's the treaty you are referring to, it guaranteed free navigation to all Ukrainian vessels, so Russia is violating it. Is your sweeping false statement just to provoke?

Tom Montgomery
11-25-2018, 05:23 PM
It's Obama's fault.

Sky Blue
11-25-2018, 05:53 PM
What is the US strategic interest here, such that the US should commit men, materiel and US dollars in this matter? Let the Europeans deal with it.

The little prince Macron has spoken of an EU Army to protect Europe from the US and other belligerents such as Russia. Let the EU deal with it, with their men and their money.

SMARTINSEN
11-25-2018, 05:53 PM
Pootie's timing is good, with the vanguard of the west mired in internal political conflict.

Sky Blue
11-25-2018, 05:59 PM
All the preening in France a couple of weeks ago looks dumber now than it did then. Trump was right to skip the fake unity photo ops and the globalist platitudes.

Europe needs to find its own way forward with Russia.

paulf
11-25-2018, 06:01 PM
Pootie's timing is good, with the vanguard of the west mired in internal political conflict.

Yes, and Skaraborgcraft is right in tune.

George Jung
11-25-2018, 06:01 PM
If that's the treaty you are referring to, it guaranteed free navigation to all Ukrainian vessels, so Russia is violating it. Is your sweeping false statement just to provoke?

Rhetorical? Of course.

Arizona Bay
11-25-2018, 06:27 PM
We're too busy defending the southern border from starving asylum seekers to bother with Putin's aggression.


Children 'Screaming and Coughing in the Mayhem' as Trump Border Patrol Fires Tear Gas Into Mexico"Strong breeze carried U.S.-launched teargas deeper into Mexico. Migrants ran for hundreds of yards before escaping the cloud."




by
Common Dreams staff (https://www.commondreams.org/author/common-dreams-staff)




27068

skuthorp
11-25-2018, 06:43 PM
Is that the Rio Grande?

Sky Blue
11-25-2018, 06:55 PM
Show of hands for those willing to sacrifice their son or grandson to counter Putin's aggression in the Ukraine.

What. No one?

L.W. Baxter
11-25-2018, 07:02 PM
Is that the Rio Grande?

No, should be the Tijuana, or what's left of it.

skuthorp
11-25-2018, 07:02 PM
Did the GOP ask for a show of hands re the fake reasons for their sons and daughters to be killed, wounded or mentally traumatised in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan? Of course not
Selective and fake concern BS.

But I think that without interference Ukraine will b taken over, and the Sea of Asov will become Russian waters and closed.

CK 17
11-25-2018, 07:03 PM
how Trump should respond:

27070

How he did respond:

27069

gypsie
11-25-2018, 11:33 PM
There are more measured, effective and economical methods for dealing with belligerent countries than throwing sons and daughters at their machine guns.
19th century expansionism showed us the folly of it, and 20th century high tech wars showed us the costs.

Sanctions, travel bans, and other economic punches may not be as 'John Wayne' as some in the good ol' USA might expect. However they work, but they only work when the consensus, that violently imposing yourself on another country is wrong, is supported.

Ignoring the Ukraine is about as close to appeasement as we've seen since Poland. Action is required, not war, and it needs to be supported universally - or it will affect American sons and daughters along with everyone else's. Economies will suffer. Cold war style fortifications will need to be manned, and, probably, soldiers will need to fight. But firstly it won't be European's or Americans who feel it; as per the usual extreme violence of the Russian army, it'll be children and innocents that die horribly in considerable numbers.

The truth is that this newest aggression from the Russians is just another in a long line of nationalist pandering in Russia. It is the logical outcome of nationalist rhetoric. The dumb of Russia get behind Putin every time he does something like this. It is his dog whistling to his base. Just another nationalist moron with guns.

skaraborgcraft
11-26-2018, 03:38 AM
If that's the treaty you are referring to, it guaranteed free navigation to all Ukrainian vessels, so Russia is violating it. Is your sweeping false statement just to provoke?

Yes. It includes making pilot plans and making radio contact with the Russian side in order for things to flow smoothly, as they have been since the Crimea chose to rejoin with Russia; in this case, there was no response to radio contact and no passage plan submitted. There has been some in Ukraine talking about destroying the bridge, so it should come as no surprise that defensive action would be taken if no response to repeated attempts at communication. Has your president not just sent the military to protect your border from civilians on foot? How would he respond to naval vessels inside of your maritime border and not responding to communication?

skaraborgcraft
11-26-2018, 03:46 AM
I don't think the UN treaty covered the annexation of the Crimea by Russia, skaraborg.

Different treaty. But there are laws about interfering with with Sovereign nations internal politics. No one talks about the American invasion of Ukraine to the tune of 5 billion dollars to pay for a "soft" coup. How did that particular act of bringing democracy to the people of Ukraine work out? More debt, and less GDP to pay it with now they have lost there biggest trading partner, Russia. McCain was, as usual, full of false promises, and ,as usual, American interference in other countries just brings suffering to the local population. Is Hunter Biden still on the board of Ukraines Gas company?

birlinn
11-26-2018, 03:49 AM
And I suppose that it was Ukraine and the US that shot down that Malaysian airliner- can't have been your Russian pals, eh, Skara?

LeeG
11-26-2018, 05:38 AM
throwing this into the hopper. I have read this blogger off and on and he seems to be respected. I’m operating from a lot of ignorance which I find is great for making incorrect assumptions.

https://www.moonofalabama.org

skaraborgcraft
11-26-2018, 05:56 AM
And I suppose that it was Ukraine and the US that shot down that Malaysian airliner- can't have been your Russian pals, eh, Skara?

I wouldnt know. The US has never released the information it said it had on the day it accused Russia of the downing, and Ukraine has not released the air traffic controllers recording of communication with that flight. Evidence from Bellingcat has been proven as fake. Hopefully the truth will come out one day.

Lets face it, apart from the families involved, its a non story except for political points. If human lives meant anything, the on-going disaster in Yemen would not be happening, Iraq, Libya and Syria would still be functioning as Sovereign states, rather than training grounds for US backed proxy terrorists. All those people on that plane would still be alive today most likely, if the US had not brokered regime change in Ukraine. Should i ask how you defend your American friends interjections?

birlinn
11-26-2018, 05:59 AM
Did you mean interventions?
I am no great lover of either US or Russian foreign policy at present.

skaraborgcraft
11-26-2018, 06:16 AM
Did you mean interventions?
I am no great lover of either US or Russian foreign policy at present.

Yes i did mean intervention, my bad.
One policy shapes another. If the US had not upset the status quo (not the band), then likely Russia would not react. It has nothing to do on my part of who may or not be my "pals", but more to do with outright disregard to global norms and laws,and then blaming the other parties reaction. In this case, if a provocation by Ukraine in order to place the country under martial law, when the people are getting restless due to its own governments lack of progress. Ukraine has gone backwards as a nation since the US got involved......but I dont expect most Americans lose any sleep over it or give it a second thought when only "Russian aggression" is what makes the headlines, but not what caused it.

skuthorp
11-26-2018, 06:47 AM
Neither the US, Russia and the USSR, Britain, Australia, China or any other vaguely colonial or militaristic power has ever regarded what ska. euphemistically calls 'global norms' as a halt to their ambitions unless there would likely be consequences. At that point there is a calculation as to whether the consequences are likely to be unmanageable. Indeed if you are big enough then the consequences are unlikely to materialise, especially if you can send a carrier group on a visit or build an atoll into an air base.
Ska. Vlad is about reassembling the old USSR territories, 'make Russia great again' and he needs distractions as much as the US political establishment has since WW2 lest their people begin to look at their own circumstances. But Vlad is way way smarter than donald.

C. Ross
11-26-2018, 06:57 AM
Yes i did mean intervention, my bad.
One policy shapes another. If the US had not upset the status quo (not the band), then likely Russia would not react. It has nothing to do on my part of who may or not be my "pals", but more to do with outright disregard to global norms and laws,and then blaming the other parties reaction. In this case, if a provocation by Ukraine in order to place the country under martial law, when the people are getting restless due to its own governments lack of progress. Ukraine has gone backwards as a nation since the US got involved......but I dont expect most Americans lose any sleep over it or give it a second thought when only "Russian aggression" is what makes the headlines, but not what caused it.

Russia invaded Crimea because of the U.S.?

skuthorp
11-26-2018, 07:02 AM
Not the US directly, but….
"Ukraine applied to join the NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008. Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country non-aligned, was elected President."

oznabrag
11-26-2018, 07:21 AM
Show of hands for those willing to sacrifice their son or grandson to counter Putin's aggression in the Ukraine.

What. No one?
Show of hands for those willing to send elderly, white Trump supporters who spend their days on obscure internet fora trying desperate psy-ops protocols on those who understand that Trump is Treason?

I think there may be a groundswell!

TomF
11-26-2018, 07:55 AM
Metternich reborn, and with a different homeland?

StevenBauer
11-26-2018, 08:23 AM
, as they have been since the Crimea chose to rejoin with Russia;

Crimea chose to rejoin with Russia? At gunpoint?

SMARTINSEN
11-26-2018, 08:50 AM
Christopher Miller is a correspondent in the region with by the minute reporting:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChristopherJM

skaraborgcraft
11-26-2018, 11:25 AM
Crimea chose to rejoin with Russia? At gunpoint?

How many voting stations did you attend and what weapons did you see?

StevenBauer
11-26-2018, 11:44 AM
Interesting docking here:

https://gdb.rferl.org/9CFC249B-CB96-435E-83B5-B61BA9A469F1_w1080_h608_s_b.jpg

skaraborgcraft
11-26-2018, 11:58 AM
Russia invaded Crimea because of the U.S.?

Russia obviously has a long history with Ukraine, and sometimes an uneasy one, but things normally were resolved without conflict even after Kiev was found taking gas bound for Europe and not paying for it. It was only after the not joining NATO choice that the changes the US wanted was put into place.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=2ahUKEwiQsvzyvvLeAhVCiywKHXNnCCMQwqsBMAJ 6BAgEEAo&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch %3Fv%3DFFRaWHVmXS0&usg=AOvVaw1-QlT-WQGCrUC1STWqltvU

And you might want to listen to this, if you not heard it already...


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=2ahUKEwjpu_LGv_LeAhXMCCwKHZavDnEQwqsBMAF 6BAgFEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch %3Fv%3DWV9J6sxCs5k&usg=AOvVaw0SneXV_ZO0T5CAuuYyVF-j

For a bunch of blokes who go frothy at the mouth at the slightest whiff off Russian collusion in your own country, you dont seem to like it when others follow your lead.

Crimeas unification was a response to US interference in Ukraine, yet those planning it, did not really think it through, or the consequences, not even after the experience of Iraq, Afghanistan,Libya and Syria. What that might tell you, is rather than trying to export democracy as they boldly state on TV, the actual purpose is to sow chaos , weaken countries, and then start selling them weapons. Its no secret the US would rather Russia not have a naval base in Crimea or Syria, but if as many as you assume Russia is just another 3rd world country masked as a gas station, then why all the effort by the US military to degrade operational ability, if they are no threat?
Sad fact is, despite the difficulties there has been between the Ukraine and Russia, US intervention made things worse for everyone, and that includes European exports to Russia and other sanctions that has even effected me personally. The rest of Europe has been watching this play out, and there are no winners except in the US, perhaps that is all that matters?
The biggest insult is sanctioning gas imports from Yamal into Europe, but then allowing a US company buy that Russian gas, and then ship it to Europe on another vessel, and sell it at twice the price. If anyone needed anymore evidence that the US has only its own interest at heart, this was just another example. Is there no country outside of your borders that America does not see as a threat.......Kingdom of Bhutan maybe?

Sky Blue
11-26-2018, 12:17 PM
US intervention has made things worse for everyone

Indeed it has. Trump was the anti-Semitic warmonger that would set the world aflame. Now he's being criticized for not doing more to stop Russian revanchism.

The Left can't seem to make up its mind. Obama fails to stop Russia and Democrats do and say nothing. Because, Bringer of Light.

Those calling for Trump to do something should STFM unless they're willing to send their sons and daughters to fight the Russians.

TomF
11-26-2018, 12:32 PM
Is there no history of modern American Presidents who were neither anti-Semitic nor cozy with Russia? Must one be evil this way or that?

skaraborgcraft
11-26-2018, 01:29 PM
Those calling for Trump to do something should STFM unless they're willing to send their sons and daughters to fight the Russians.

Some might say rather than any Russians, your actual enemy is a lot closer, if only you would open your eyes......

LeeG
11-26-2018, 06:47 PM
Those calling for Trump to do something should STFM unless they're willing to send their sons and daughters to fight the Russians.

Ya know Blue One, “doing something” is a very vague and general term while sending sons and daughters is pretty darn specific. Maybe there’s a way you could condense it down to “some people say...”

LeeG
11-26-2018, 06:52 PM
Some might say rather than any Russians, your actual enemy is a lot closer, if only you would open your eyes......

Where, where? Enemies, enemies! It’s the Devil, evil, in the dark, in the shadows, AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!

LeeG
11-26-2018, 06:55 PM
Christopher Miller is a correspondent in the region with by the minute reporting:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChristopherJM


I hate to do this but but Radio Free Europe is a US funded program.

gypsie
11-26-2018, 07:46 PM
Ya know Blue One, “doing something” is a very vague and general term while sending sons and daughters is pretty darn specific.

Nicely said LeeG.

Sky Blue
11-26-2018, 10:24 PM
when we say Trump should "do something," we don't mean, like, troops and stuff

No? Then what are we talking about?

SMARTINSEN
11-26-2018, 11:00 PM
I hate to do this but but Radio Free Europe is a US funded program.
I did not know that, but in my defense, neither does the president, as he just today said that he was thinking of staring a new network promulgating USA views.

skaraborgcraft
11-27-2018, 02:44 AM
SB, have you ever heard of sanctions! Oh wait Trump doesn't like sanction countries like Putin's Russia or Saudi Arabia's Prince charming. One he owes money to outright and the other is run by his buddy.

You write that as if there are no sanctions already in place on Russia. If you could not bring Cuba down through sanctions, one would have to be of limited intelligence to believe they would be succesfull, and for anyone paying attention, it has only helped create more buisness opportunity inside the country, at the cost of European trade. As for SA, Germany pulled arms exports, so that leaves among others, the US and UK as talking the talk of human rights and democracy, but clearly happy to take money and supply weapons they know are being used to slaughter civilians.
Provocations in order to get a reaction so you can cry "Russian aggression" is the stuff of childrens playgrounds....

C. Ross
11-27-2018, 06:24 AM
Russia obviously has a long history with Ukraine, and sometimes an uneasy one, but things normally were resolved without conflict even after Kiev was found taking gas bound for Europe and not paying for it. It was only after the not joining NATO choice that the changes the US wanted was put into place.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=2ahUKEwiQsvzyvvLeAhVCiywKHXNnCCMQwqsBMAJ 6BAgEEAo&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch %3Fv%3DFFRaWHVmXS0&usg=AOvVaw1-QlT-WQGCrUC1STWqltvU

And you might want to listen to this, if you not heard it already...


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=2ahUKEwjpu_LGv_LeAhXMCCwKHZavDnEQwqsBMAF 6BAgFEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch %3Fv%3DWV9J6sxCs5k&usg=AOvVaw0SneXV_ZO0T5CAuuYyVF-j

For a bunch of blokes who go frothy at the mouth at the slightest whiff off Russian collusion in your own country, you dont seem to like it when others follow your lead.

Crimeas unification was a response to US interference in Ukraine, yet those planning it, did not really think it through, or the consequences, not even after the experience of Iraq, Afghanistan,Libya and Syria. What that might tell you, is rather than trying to export democracy as they boldly state on TV, the actual purpose is to sow chaos , weaken countries, and then start selling them weapons. Its no secret the US would rather Russia not have a naval base in Crimea or Syria, but if as many as you assume Russia is just another 3rd world country masked as a gas station, then why all the effort by the US military to degrade operational ability, if they are no threat?
Sad fact is, despite the difficulties there has been between the Ukraine and Russia, US intervention made things worse for everyone, and that includes European exports to Russia and other sanctions that has even effected me personally. The rest of Europe has been watching this play out, and there are no winners except in the US, perhaps that is all that matters?
The biggest insult is sanctioning gas imports from Yamal into Europe, but then allowing a US company buy that Russian gas, and then ship it to Europe on another vessel, and sell it at twice the price. If anyone needed anymore evidence that the US has only its own interest at heart, this was just another example. Is there no country outside of your borders that America does not see as a threat.......Kingdom of Bhutan maybe?

The links you provided don't work...if you are so inclined, please post them again.

Your analysis makes perfect sense if Ukraine is understood to be a part of Russia, or a vassal state to it. Perhaps Russia views Ukraine in the same way China views Taiwan. But if one understands that Ukraine is an independent, autonomous state, comments like "Its no secret the US would rather Russia not have a naval base in Crimea..." make no sense whatsoever.

Is Ukraine an independent state? May it choose its own future, and who it chooses to ally with?

C. Ross
11-27-2018, 06:38 AM
Indeed it has. Trump was the anti-Semitic warmonger that would set the world aflame. Now he's being criticized for not doing more to stop Russian revanchism.

The Left can't seem to make up its mind. Obama fails to stop Russia and Democrats do and say nothing. Because, Bringer of Light.

Those calling for Trump to do something should STFM unless they're willing to send their sons and daughters to fight the Russians.

Ridiculous.

I think reasonable people would like to see President Trump continue a policy of supporting autonomy for former states of the Soviet Union who want the independence they were granted by the former Soviet Union when it collapsed.

As for American sons and daughters headed to war, I assume you are being deliberately and provocatively polemic and not just uninformed or naive. This is why reasonable people are appalled when Presdient Trump chose to seek to destroy the NATO alliance last summer, and chose President Putin over NATO. President Trump of course is too stupid to understand the value of multilateralism, and too busy trying to vengefully reverse any Obama policy.

There are measured steps the world can take to condemn and oppose Russian interference in Ukraine. A good step would be to provide support to our NATO allies who have a much greater stake in this than we do, but instead we'll pursue unilateral moves (again, mostly because President Simpleton is unable to comprehend arrangements that involve e more than two parties and a simple transaction.)

oznabrag
11-27-2018, 07:03 AM
People who say that WBF is some obscure Internet forum are ignoring the fact that GRU think we rate not one, but TWO Russian trolls!

We’re going places, I tell ya!

skaraborgcraft
11-27-2018, 08:02 AM
The links you provided don't work...if you are so inclined, please post them again.

Your analysis makes perfect sense if Ukraine is understood to be a part of Russia, or a vassal state to it. Perhaps Russia views Ukraine in the same way China views Taiwan. But if one understands that Ukraine is an independent, autonomous state, comments like "Its no secret the US would rather Russia not have a naval base in Crimea..." make no sense whatsoever.
Is Ukraine an independent state? May it choose its own future, and who it chooses to ally with?

Its as much as an independent state as many of the countries under the US thumb, and sadly i would have to include the UK. There was a time, did not seem that long ago, that having a "sphere of influence" was an accepted norm, as long as there was buffer states in between. When NATO starts talking about membership to countries on Russias border, then perhaps that influence has shifted a bit too far.
Ukraine has been assisted financially by Russia for years,including discounted gas, that fact is probably not well understood by many. Once Yanukchovych was sent packing, the US installed puppet was then offered billions in loans to avoid default from the IMF, if they cut pensions and hiked gas prices by 40%.Anyone who knows about Ukraine pensions and the cost of living would understand how this would effect normal people. Russias loans were offered interest free and without cost to the local populace. You might remember Ukraine tried to legally default on a Eurobond payment to Russia, but it was upheld in a Swedish court that payment had to be made. So, despite all the gas stealing and back stabbing on loans, Russia was always there to help the people of Ukraine even when the government was mostly corrupt, and still is.
I would be interested to know how much in the way of funding the US taxpayer has contributed, apart from the $5 billion pay off.

I will post direct links, trying to attach the videos clearly did not work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QAXmf5_EOs

Nuland an Pyatt call....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV9J6sxCs5k




(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV9J6sxCs5k)

skaraborgcraft
11-27-2018, 08:11 AM
And from a former US Senate candidate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR9R_F__NbQ

L.W. Baxter
11-27-2018, 08:47 AM
No country is an island. Russia doesn't want to be North Korea, or Cuba. The threat of isolation is a perfectly legitimate strategy for keeping Russian imperialist ambitions at bay. Insofar as it has worked imperfectly, one might blame the dependency of Europe on Russian gas for the sadly transparent lack of willpower.

The idea that a ground war is not only an option, but the only option, is a new height of absurdity.

Sky Blue
11-27-2018, 10:02 AM
there are present steps the world should take...

Why should "the world" do anything? Who counts as "the world?" What will Guinea be contributing?

What is the US interest in propping up Ukraine?

TomF
11-27-2018, 10:06 AM
What do you think, SB? Is the model of State Sovereignty which has undergirded international relations since the Treaty of Westphalia to be discarded, and the Ukraine simply to be re-absorbed by a resurgent expansionary Russian empire?

Sky Blue
11-27-2018, 01:02 PM
What are the US interests in Ukraine? Anyone?

TomF
11-27-2018, 01:14 PM
A buffer against Russian expansionism? Learning from the essentially unopposed annexation territory by the Germans in the late 1930s?

John Smith
11-27-2018, 02:25 PM
What are the US interests in Ukraine? Anyone?

Complicated. We like to think we are leaders. That would require having followers, and doing some leading. We brag about our principles; those ideals that make us 'better' than, for example, Russia. Sticking up for those ideals will help others do so. That is how we form alliances, and alliances are good things.

If we let Russia take one chunk of land, then they will take another. Then another. Nipping it in the bud would seem logical.

C. Ross
11-27-2018, 02:29 PM
Its as much as an independent state as many of the countries under the US thumb...

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV9J6sxCs5k)

Got it. Russia owns Ukraine and van do with her as it pleases.

I disagree.

C. Ross
11-27-2018, 02:35 PM
What are the US interests in Ukraine? Anyone?

As was pointed out by many in the aftermath of President Trump’s sordid capitulation to Saudi Arabian murder, the U.S. has always had interests and principles. The Trump administration only recognizes narrow bilateral transactional interests.

The principles at stake are the integrity of a sovereign nation being abused by its former occupant, with whom we have grievances and disagreements (speaking for both political parties, our State Deoartment and our U.N. Ambassador, excluding of course President Trump himself).

Our interests include a stable and prosperous Europe, which is at risk.

Juan
11-27-2018, 03:02 PM
Russophobia

Russophobia and more Russophobia

and it affects sensible and intelligent people

Stephen Jay Gould in one of his wonderfull essays gave us a nice word from an English enlightened: "pseudodoxia epidemica"

pseudo-doxia epi-demica, false-opinion overall-thepeople

Russophobia is an epidemic in London and New York and affects the whole Angloesphere

if Russia had achieved the independence of Texas and California what would you be saying

sometimes I get the impression that as you are the Empire you have lost the ability to reason outside of your mental bubble

Sky Blue
11-27-2018, 03:07 PM
As was pointed out by many in the aftermath of President Trump’s sordid capitulation to Saudi Arabian murder, the U.S. has always had interests and principles. The Trump administration only recognizes narrow bilateral transactional interests.

The principles at stake are the integrity of a sovereign nation being abused by its former occupant, with whom we have grievances and disagreements (speaking for both political parties, our State Deoartment and our U.N. Ambassador, excluding of course President Trump himself).

Our interests include a stable and prosperous Europe, which is at risk.


I disagree. The French President has recently called for the creation of an EU Army to protect itself from various bad actors, including the US. He made these comments on the eve of a Remembrance Ceremony said to honor, among others, dead US boys who gave their lives for a free France.

The Cold War is over. Europe has enjoyed a peace dividend in the wake of WWII which was bought in part with the lives of Americans and their tax dollars. Enough is enough.

Let the Europeans figure out their own relationship with Russia. We will do the same.

We should not be fighting for Europe when it is clear that Europeans themselves will not fight.

TomF
11-27-2018, 03:08 PM
Russia's recently killed dissidents on UK soil, then denied it did so. It invaded the Crimea using its own troops with the insigna visibly stripped off their uniforms, and then sent a long slow-moving column of supplies etc. tracked daily by satellite photo to support the "rebels" who were fighting to become free from the Ukraine. It shot down an airline flying over the Ukraine with weaponry only available to Russian troops, then denied it. And then there's all the various kinds of support to populist unrest in Europe and America. I'm not a Russophobe - my wife's half Russian. I'm not blind, though, to ongoing aggression and attempts at destabilization. Putin isn't a Hitler, but he is leading a return to 18th Century despotism.

Juan
11-27-2018, 03:36 PM
"invaded the Crimea"

LOL

so you would say that the US Army "invades" Miami

I see that the epidemic is even worse than I thought

---

"President Trump’s sordid capitulation to Saudi Arabian murder"

some of us are older, let's talk honestly

we pharisees love to talk about moral things

and that sometimes makes us lose realism

Mr. Trump simply is a worshiper of the Entity of the East, that is the idol of the united states of america
Mr. Trump to imitate his idol would love to order his soldiers to shoot and kill children who throw stones

we can refuse to look but it is useless to deny the reality:
the Romans love the zionist and despise the yehudim

Mr. Trump love Saudi Barbaria following the opinion of the zionist

we can play to fool ourselves but that does not change the reality

PeterSibley
11-27-2018, 03:40 PM
Russia is accusing Ukraine of ''provocation''.What motivation would Ukraine have for provocation?

TomF
11-27-2018, 04:15 PM
Existing as a sovereign entity?

C. Ross
11-27-2018, 11:46 PM
I disagree. The French President has recently called for the creation of an EU Army to protect itself from various bad actors, including the US. He made these comments on the eve of a Remembrance Ceremony said to honor, among others, dead US boys who gave their lives for a free France.

The Cold War is over. Europe has enjoyed a peace dividend in the wake of WWII which was bought in part with the lives of Americans and their tax dollars. Enough is enough.

Let the Europeans figure out their own relationship with Russia. We will do the same.

We should not be fighting for Europe when it is clear that Europeans themselves will not fight.

Which is it, the EU will have an army and fight, or they won't fight?

Adding isolationism to nativism and nationalism gives you admittance to several clubs, none of which are frequented by decent or thinking people.

C. Ross
11-27-2018, 11:47 PM
Russia is accusing Ukraine of ''provocation''.What motivation would Ukraine have for provocation?

They were provocative by failing to be supine and servile. Putin dreams of a reconstituted Soviet Union.

Sky Blue
11-28-2018, 12:03 AM
Which is it, the EU will have an army and fight, or they won't fight?

Adding isolationism to nativism and nationalism gives you admittance to several clubs, none of which are frequented by decent or thinking people.

Nobody's perfect

C. Ross
11-28-2018, 12:12 AM
Nobody's perfect

Bring imperfect is no sin.

Actively choosing to be a Bannonesque apologist and advocate for nativist and nationalist authoritarianism is.

Sky Blue
11-28-2018, 12:55 AM
Bring imperfect is no sin.

Actively choosing to be a Bannonesque apologist and advocate for nativist and nationalist authoritarianism is.

Stop taking yourself so seriously. It's boring.

skaraborgcraft
11-28-2018, 04:33 AM
It shot down an airline flying over the Ukraine with weaponry only available to Russian troops, then denied it.

Wow. Entitled to an opinion you are of course, but not even an International enquiry has laid blame at Russias door. And your "weaponary only availiable to Russian troops" is clearly a false statement, as both Russia and Ukraine have BUK systems. The explosive pattern to the cockpit matched the older BUK system, used by Ukraine, not the updated warhead used by Russia. For whatever reason, Dutch investigators did not include that in their report. I do not support anyone shooting down civilian planes.

skaraborgcraft
11-28-2018, 04:49 AM
Russia is accusing Ukraine of ''provocation''.What motivation would Ukraine have for provocation?

International attention of being a so called "victim". Ukraine military ships have made passages prieviously with no issues, with a Russian pilot onboard. Some people here do not realise that part of the Azov sea has always been Russian territorial waters, not something claimed after Crimea reunification, that maritime border has been there since 91. Poroshenko is looking at defeat in the upcoming elections, elections can be suspended under martial law, he needs a reason to apply martial law, which he has now done so. Has the corruption in Ukraine gone away since the EU and US got involved?
Sadly, i dont think most of you realize just how far down the toilet Ukraine has gone, since it has backing from the US, EU and NATO and Poroshenko was installed. Just another country to destabalise regardless to the local population, in order to perpetuate the myth of the Russian bogeyman. Poroshenko has been on TV saying there is an imminent Russian invasion, and lets not forget ex-NATO head Rasmussen said the same thing about Russian build up on the border, which was debunked the very next day after an official fly-over. People in power lie because they have an agenda they do not talk about in public......

PeterSibley
11-28-2018, 05:03 AM
Thanks Ian.

C. Ross
11-28-2018, 07:56 AM
Stop taking yourself so seriously. It's boring.

Nobody's perfect

Osborne Russell
11-28-2018, 08:10 AM
The links you provided don't work...if you are so inclined, please post them again.

Your analysis makes perfect sense if Ukraine is understood to be a part of Russia, or a vassal state to it. Perhaps Russia views Ukraine in the same way China views Taiwan. But if one understands that Ukraine is an independent, autonomous state, comments like "Its no secret the US would rather Russia not have a naval base in Crimea..." make no sense whatsoever.

Is Ukraine an independent state? May it choose its own future, and who it chooses to ally with?

The authoritative answer:


Ukraine and many world leaders condemned the annexation and consider it to be a violation of international law and Russian-signed agreements safeguarding the territorial integrity of Ukraine, including the Belavezha Accords establishing the Commonwealth of Independent States in 1991, the Helsinki Accords, the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances of 1994 and the Treaty on friendship, cooperation and partnership between the Russian Federation and Ukraine. It led to the other members of the then G8 suspending Russia from the group, then introducing the first round of sanctions against the country. The United Nations General Assembly also rejected the vote and annexation, adopting a non-binding resolution affirming the "territorial integrity of Ukraine within its internationally recognised borders". The UN resolution also "underscores that the referendum having no validity, cannot form the basis for any alteration of the status of [Crimea]" and calls upon all States and international organizations not to recognize or to imply the recognition of Russia's annexation. In 2016, UN General Assembly reaffirmed non-recognition of the annexation and condemned "the temporary occupation of part of the territory of Ukraine—the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol".

-- wikipedia

TomF
11-28-2018, 09:44 AM
Stop taking yourself so seriously. It's boring.Will he too soon lose the Right of Access to Your Ineffable Blueness? :D It's tough when a smart person calls you on your BS, SB.

L.W. Baxter
11-28-2018, 09:48 AM
...the Right of Access to Your Ineffable Blueness?...

Nice!:D

Is that anything like the Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind?

LeeG
11-28-2018, 10:31 AM
Nobody's perfect

Your reality based world view just doesn’t have the pizazz of hypothetical truthfulness.

Osborne Russell
11-29-2018, 08:34 AM
"Referendum having no validity"

Historical arguments are only heard in the tribunal recognized to hear them. They've heard.