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P.I. Stazzer-Newt
11-15-2018, 08:32 AM
Given our political rukus..

C. Ross
11-15-2018, 08:34 AM
Everyone must have exited.

Peerie Maa
11-15-2018, 08:36 AM
Just waiting to see in what direction the house of cards falls. Reece Mogg has had his footman deliver a letter seeking no confidence,
So long knives, defeat in parliament, or . . . .

Canoez
11-15-2018, 08:42 AM
Given our political rukus..

Calm before the storm?

TomF
11-15-2018, 08:43 AM
It is fascinating. Strange bedfellows indeed, when absolutely nobody can stomach May's proposals.

As I said to ACB on FB, getting hard for political fiction writers the world over to ply their trade...

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
11-15-2018, 08:55 AM
Every Friday, at six thirty pm on radio four, there is a satirical comedy slot, either "The News Quiz" or "The Now Show", this is actually recorded on the Thursday.

Going to be entertaining.

Can be downloaded as a podcast.

amish rob
11-15-2018, 09:40 AM
What’s going on then? :)

Peace,
Already Left, Not Going Back

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
11-15-2018, 10:43 AM
Our prime minister thinks she has the best practicable divorce settlement for Brexit and has as a result just lost three ministers and taken a pasting in the house of commons.

The swivel eyed loon tendency are starting an attempt to unseat her, while the rabid fundamentalist group (on whom she relies for a working majority) have said that they will not support the deal.

Meanwhile, in the land of the geriatric crypto-communist, nothing continued to happen....


The Scot Nats want the deal that the rabid fundies dislike.

TomF
11-15-2018, 10:46 AM
I cannot fathom why she's working so hard to get a deal at all, considering. ACB opined that she'd not really thought it through past eviscerating UKIP in order to preserve the Tories, and while I'm sure that ticks the needle upwards a bit, I don't feel like it's a sufficient reason to sink the country for a goal she didn't herself support ...

amish rob
11-15-2018, 10:48 AM
I listened to a fisherman living in Ireland yesterday, who offloads his catch in Northern Ireland and sells mostly to France.
He’s sorta wondering what his world is gonna be like...

Crazy If May has to leave, too, eh? This whole breakup is some drama.

Peace,
Robet

Peerie Maa
11-15-2018, 12:55 PM
I cannot fathom why she's working so hard to get a deal at all, considering. ACB opined that she'd not really thought it through past eviscerating UKIP in order to preserve the Tories, and while I'm sure that ticks the needle upwards a bit, I don't feel like it's a sufficient reason to sink the country for a goal she didn't herself support ...

Well, after David Cameron screwed up so royally and then walked away from the disaster of his own making, someone had to take over. Even if it comes with a poisoned chalice, May is still Prime Minister with all that goes with it.
Having taken the job she has to be seen to do something.

amish rob
11-15-2018, 01:01 PM
Well, after David Cameron screwed up so royally and then walked away from the disaster of his own making, someone had to take over. Even if it comes with a poisoned chalice, May is still Prime Minister with all that goes with it.
Having taken the job she has to be seen to do something.

I particularly liked that bit. Oops, this potatoe is TOO hot, now, so I’ll just bounce.

Next! And, good luck! Maybe try dancing a bit?

Peace,
Robert

Canoeyawl
11-15-2018, 01:41 PM
Well, after David Cameron screwed up so royally and then walked away from the disaster of his own making, someone had to take over. Even if it comes with a poisoned chalice, May is still Prime Minister with all that goes with it.
Having taken the job she has to be seen to do something.

Too bad you don't have an "invasion" lurking offshore.

birlinn
11-15-2018, 01:48 PM
Too bad you don't have an "invasion" lurking offshore.

The threat of brown foreigners lurking in Calais are what helped swing the wretched Brexit vote in the first place.

heimfried
11-15-2018, 02:45 PM
In April or May 2016 I started to read British press online every day. So I think I know a lot about brexit. Because I often read readers comments, I got an idea about the kind of thinking of very different parts of the British public. To me there is a striking tendency to blame "others" for any problems. The "not elected EU buerocrats" in particular, then the Germans, the French, the Italian and so on. It seems a majority of Britons are convinced of an own superiority over the rest of Europe. On what other reasons could the foreign trade minister tell the public the negotiation of the treaties with the EU would be the easiest in human history? And the brexit minister: "They need us more than we need them"? The British government several times tried the "divide and rule" approach against the EU27, but it failed.

Ivan Rogers, the former UK envoy to the EU knew what would be possible to achieve in negotiations whith the EU and called the ideas of the British government muddled thinking. I changed my mind about brexit. I always hoped, Britain would do a U turn before it is to late and stay in the EU. But the EU haters will hate much more after that and be convinced that this has been treason. Maybe it would be better for Britain to leave and then clean up some problems.

NickW
11-15-2018, 02:48 PM
It would be nice if we had some grown ups in the Westminster village. At the moment we have a load of two year olds throwing tantrums left, right and centre. How many of them have actually read (and more importantly understood) of what the BBC has called 535 pages of densely worded legal prose? Very few I suspect.

Europe has already made clear that this is the best deal they're going to make. That leaves three options:-
- Brexit with a deal;
- no deal Brexit;
- no Brexit.

If I was a betting man (I'm not) I'd put my money on a coalition of left right and centre remainers forming a Government and scrapping Brexit. As for JC's wish for a General Election, it won't happen see here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011

Section 2 of the Act also provides for two ways in which a general election can be held before the end of this five-year period:[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011#cite_note-4)


If the House of Commons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Commons_of_the_United_Kingdom) resolves "That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty's Government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motions_of_no_confidence_in_the_United_Kingdom)", an early general election is held, unless the House of Commons subsequently resolves "That this House has confidence in Her Majesty's Government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motions_of_no_confidence_in_the_United_Kingdom)". This second resolution must be made within fourteen days of the first. This provision recognises that in a hung parliament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_parliament) it might be possible for a new government to be formed, commanding a majority.



If the House of Commons, with the support of two thirds of its total membership (including vacant seats), resolves "That there shall be an early parliamentary general election".

In either of these two cases, the Monarch (on the recommendation of the prime minister) appoints the date of the new election by proclamation. Parliament is then dissolved 25 working days before that date.
Apart from the automatic dissolution in anticipation of a general election (whether held early or not), section 3(2) provides that "Parliament cannot otherwise be dissolved". The Act thus removes the traditional royal prerogative to dissolve Parliament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdo m),[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011#cite_note-Norton-5) and repeals the Septennial Act 1715 as well as references in other Acts to the royal prerogative. The royal prerogative to prorogue parliament is not affected by the Act.
According to the political scientist Colin Talbot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Talbot), the Act makes minority governments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_governments) much more stable than in the past: events that previously might have forced a government out of power—such as loss of supply (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_of_supply), defeat of a Queen's Speech (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Opening_of_Parliament#Debate_on_the_speech) or other important legislation, or a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister rather than the government as a whole—cannot formally do so.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011#cite_note-talbot20150503-6)



As the Chinese curse has it "May you live in interesting times".

Nick

Peerie Maa
11-15-2018, 02:53 PM
As the Chinese curse has it "May, you live in interesting times".

Nick

Did you forget the comma?

John of Phoenix
11-15-2018, 03:18 PM
Maybe it would be better for Britain to leave and then clean up some problems.Lessons learned the hard way are the most well learned but I've come to believe that some people are so wedded to their fallacies that they'll never learn anything regardless of the cost.

Canoez
11-15-2018, 03:23 PM
Is May likely to survive the no confidence vote if they get the 48 letters?

Peerie Maa
11-15-2018, 03:31 PM
Is May likely to survive the no confidence vote if they get the 48 letters?

I find it hard to predict if they will even get 48 missives, if they do the Tories may well destroy their own party. That could then bring the entire Brexit shambles crashing down.

John of Phoenix
11-15-2018, 03:52 PM
That could then bring the entire Brexit shambles crashing down.Meaning NO Brexit? Stay in the EU? Thwart the will of the people?

TomF
11-15-2018, 03:54 PM
One can only hope. Perhaps Elizabeth will step in, if the whole Parliament seems to go belly-up?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
11-15-2018, 03:55 PM
Boaty McBoatface is now RRS Sir David Attenborough

And may well have thwarts.

Peerie Maa
11-15-2018, 03:56 PM
Meaning NO Brexit? Stay in the EU? Thwart the will of the people?

Well, the people, now being better informed, are staring to have second thoughts.

U.K. voters would vote to remain in the EU by a majority of 54 percent if a referendum were held today, according to a poll of 20,000 people across every constituency (https://www.survation.com/brexit-what-the-nation-really-thinks-monday-5th-november-8pm-channel-4/) in the country.
The unusually large poll (https://www.survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Final-Tables-Renegade.xlsx), carried out by Survation for Channel 4, indicates a swing of 6 percentage points from Leave to Remain since the 2016 referendum and an 8-point margin in a second vote. The data also suggests that 105 local authorities that voted Leave in the original referendum would switch to Remain if a national vote on EU membership were held today.

Moreover, the poll found that if the U.K. and EU agree an exit deal, 55 percent of the voters said they would support at least one version of a second referendum, while 15 percent opposed all of the potential referendum options put to them.

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-poll-predicts-swing-to-remain-in-second-brexit-vote/

purri
11-15-2018, 04:53 PM
I'm guessing they will stay on the condition that the EU renegotiate terms. The EU will not do so, now toddle off.

AndyG
11-15-2018, 04:56 PM
Günter, may I apologise for this whole shenanigans?

Were there a People's Vote tomorrow, I strongly suspect 'Remain' would walk it. The polls strongly suggest this. 'Leave' relied on lies, foreign money and dubious practises in the run-up to the 'purely advisory' referendum of 2016. They barely won, and did not win over 50% of the electorate. David Cameron, who sowed the wind, and took that referendum as sacrisanct, and instantly jumped ship upon the results being announced.

May, in an effort to strengthen her hand, held an election. The result of this was a minority government, relying on support of the DUP - possibly the most backward, reactionary and wholly unhinged sector in UK politics. They are worse than UKIP, who are a joke.

Back in 2014, during the Scottish Independence Referendum, 'Project Fear's BIGGEST STICK was 'an independent Scotland would find no place in the EU'. Scotland would have to apply for membership. 'No', subsequently, just won. During the EU referendum, Scotland voted 62% in favour of 'Remain'. I see a strong local support for the EU here, not least because we benefit in terms of investment, and because it also holds Westminster to account, but the EU also demonstrates a progressive, consensual politics that England can never understand. Scotland has been, and continues to be, utterly disregarded by the English Leavers during the past two years: it's clear that five and a half million 'UK' residents are utterly off the radar when it comes to discussion on the EU issue. That's no democracy.

So.

I've reached a point where two things are important to me.

Point one is that I'd like to see the end of the Tory party. They are self-serving b4stards using every evil trick in the book to keep the electorate in the dark, to hold onto power, to paint 'foreigners' as somehow not worthy. The party is nasty, its members are scum.

Point two ... I live in a country which IS progressive, outward-looking, liberally minded, and sees the benefits that smaller countries have had in the EU. I truly believe the UK is finished, at last, and an indy Scotland would find a natural home amongst the nations of the EU.

That's what I'll be fighting for.

Andy

S.V. Airlie
11-15-2018, 05:01 PM
One can only hope. Perhaps Elizabeth will step in, if the whole Parliament seems to go belly-up?She's supposed to stay out of politics. It's been her trademark of her reign.

TomF
11-15-2018, 05:02 PM
She's supposed to stay out of politics. It's been her trademark of her reign.Yeah, well she keeps on sending letters to America mentioning that she's going to revoke independence for being so daft as electing this or that politician. You'd hope she'd actually mean it ... :D

birlinn
11-15-2018, 05:07 PM
Günter, may I apologise for this whole shenanigans?

Were there a People's Vote tomorrow, I strongly suspect 'Remain' would walk it. The polls strongly suggest this. 'Leave' relied on lies, foreign money and dubious practises in the run-up to the 'purely advisory' referendum of 2016. They barely won, and did not win over 50% of the electorate. David Cameron, who sowed the wind, and took that referendum as sacrisanct, and instantly jumped ship upon the results being announced.

May, in an effort to strengthen her hand, held an election. The result of this was a minority government, relying on support of the DUP - possibly the most backward, reactionary and wholly unhinged sector in UK politics. They are worse than UKIP, who are a joke.

Back in 2014, during the Scottish Independence Referendum, 'Project Fear's BIGGEST STICK was 'an independent Scotland would find no place in the EU'. Scotland would have to apply for membership. 'No', subsequently, just won. During the EU referendum, Scotland voted 62% in favour of 'Remain'. I see a strong local support for the EU here, not least because we benefit in terms of investment, and because it also holds Westminster to account, but the EU also demonstrates a progressive, consensual politics that England can never understand. Scotland has been, and continues to be, utterly disregarded by the English Leavers during the past two years: it's clear that five and a half million 'UK' residents are utterly off the radar when it comes to discussion on the EU issue. That's no democracy.

So.

I've reached a point where two things are important to me.

Point one is that I'd like to see the end of the Tory party. They are self-serving b4stards using every evil trick in the book to keep the electorate in the dark, to hold onto power, to paint 'foreigners' as somehow not worthy. The party is nasty, its members are scum.

Point two ... I live in a country which IS progressive, outward-looking, liberally minded, and sees the benefits that smaller countries have had in the EU. I truly believe the UK is finished, at last, and an indy Scotland would find a natural home amongst the nations of the EU.

That's what I'll be fighting for.

Andy

Me too.

Peerie Maa
11-15-2018, 05:41 PM
Voters have rejected Theresa May (https://www.standard.co.uk/topic/theresa-may-1)’s deal and want another referendum (https://www.standard.co.uk/topic/referendum) in which they would vote to stay in the European Union, a poll (https://www.standard.co.uk/topic/poll) reveals today.
A YouGov survey of 1,153 Britons taken overnight — the first taken after last night’s Cabinet meeting — suggests the Prime Minister’s claim that her terms would “take back control” from the EU has been firmly dismissed by the public.
A majority now want a fresh public vote if the Government deal is voted down, with a choice on the ballot paper to keep Britain’s place in the EU rather than crashing out with no protection, the survey suggests.
Key findings of the poll, which was commissioned by the People’s Vote campaign for a second referendum, show:
Voters have changed their minds about Brexit (https://www.standard.co.uk/topic/brexit) and would now vote to stay in the EU, with 54 per cent voting Remain, versus 46 per cent Leave. Among Londoners, the margin was an even bigger — 57-43.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/first-poll-since-brexit-deal-voters-want-a-new-referendum-a3990851.html?fbclid=IwAR0hcVc6M-CymCzQYPh-MbiuSAcFfxq5Z21owW7AJYX4EPwtd-AXsU83WLc

Rum_Pirate
11-15-2018, 05:55 PM
Awaiting the 26th November. :rolleyes:

Garret
11-15-2018, 06:03 PM
The parallels across the pond are quite remarkable. Amazing what a bunch of people willing to lie & cheat can make happen, eh?

Paul Pless
11-15-2018, 07:19 PM
Surprisingly quiet here

y’all are so ****ed

sorry

AndyG
11-15-2018, 07:34 PM
I'm not so sure, Paul. This could just be re-start of truth in our world.

Not a bad thing.

Andy, optimist

Sky Blue
11-15-2018, 11:32 PM
It is curious that issues concerning Brexit are not matters of party discipline. There is no one to whip. One is either a Remainer or a Leaver. That's it. It isnt a question of partisanship except as to one's position on the ultimate question.

Does Rees-Mogg have 15%? He gets to be the principled one, for now, but he's really rolling the dice on everything if he issues the challenge. If May prevails, if her deal prevails, the skeptics, the Brexiteers, would be finished. Their careers, their credibility, their influence would be finished. The matter will be closed.

If May has the support, she should invite the challenge. If she doesn't, she should step down.

Yes?

Peerie Maa
11-16-2018, 10:02 AM
Highlighted on FB

Brexit and the March of Folly

Why have so many otherwise sensible people joined enthusiastically in the journey to a poorer and less influential Britain? On every score the Brexit phenomenon tallies with Tuchman’s description of The March of Folly. The willingness of many to point out that the emperor has no clothes, far from undermining her thesis, is part of her very definition of it.
Ignore reality

Tuchman describes the phenomenon of “screening out information”. She notes that psychologists call this determination to ignore reality ‘cognitive dissonance’. This, she suggests, is an academic way of saying “don’t confuse me with the facts”.

Already during my time as Irish ambassador in London, between 2009 and 2013, British European policy was significantly driven by emotional posturing about sovereignty. Public discussion was led by populists. With honourable exceptions, the debate ignored the EU’s nature, achievements and purpose. The failure of those who knew better to speak out played an important role.
Tuchman would recognise, in act one of this British tragedy, the false narrative that led to David Cameron’s decision to call a referendum. From the square bananas to the mantra about Brussels bureaucrats; from the notion that compromises were unnecessary to the failure to recognise the UK’s particular effectiveness at striking such deals in its own interests.
She would recognise in act two the falsehoods of the Leave campaign including the £350 million for the NHS. What was the dismissal of experts other than a screening out of reality? Nor would she be surprised that all attempts, by respected British institutions and commentators, to identify the risks posed by Brexit were dismissed as Project Fear.
Have their cake and eat it

In act three, the immediate aftermath of the referendum, it was claimed that the people had spoken and could not be asked to speak again; this despite the fact that the Eurosceptics had worked assiduously over four decades precisely to get the people to speak again. It was casually asserted that the people had voted to leave the single market although they had been repeatedly assured they could have their cake and eat it.
During the negotiations, in act four, the screening out of reality was evident in the belief that the EU 27 could be divided from each other, that the EU’s negotiator could be bypassed, that German business interests would come riding to the rescue, and that the UK could negotiate better trade deals for itself than those it already has through the EU.
Alas far from questioning the March of Folly, many erstwhile sensible people joined in the foolishness. The foreign secretary’s comparing of the EU to the Soviet Union was just one manifestation of the spreading madness.
As we enter the final act of the tragedy, there have been signs of some
common sense kicking in. This week’s Brexit deal reflects valiant efforts by Theresa May to minimise the damage inherent in forging ahead. She deserves credit for attempting to reconcile reality with the ever louder cheering of party colleagues as they acclaim the splendour of the emperor’s raiments.
Jo Johnson’s recent support for a second referendum shows that the accepted wisdom can be challenged from within the system. It’s not surprising that Jo studied history.
However, the Brexit infantry march cheerfully ahead, blissfully unconcerned that their feuding military commanders are basing their campaign plans either on the tactical subtlety of the Charge of the Light Brigade or on the strategic brilliance of the Grand Old Duke of York.
Tuchman asks why people “within the system” rarely question a policy which is against the interests of their own country. She concludes that it would produce “conflict within a system already set on a particular course”.
Maybe she had powers to foresee the future as well as to understand the important lessons of the past.
Bobby McDonagh is a former Irish ambassador to the EU, Britain and Italy

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/brexit-and-the-march-of-folly-1.3699010

Andrew Craig-Bennett
11-16-2018, 10:11 AM
May will almost certainly get the votes of 158 Conservative MPs, so she will continue to be leader of the Conservative Party, even if the Moggies send in 48 letters to the Chairman of the 1922 Committee.

The DUP will almost certainly vote with the Tories on a motion of no confidence because they don't want an election either.

Corbyn will do nothing for as long as he possibly can.

heimfried
11-22-2018, 09:10 AM
A piece that could cheer you up a little (may be, not all of you):

Damn those Europeans ‘jumping the queue’ and taking all those jobs we’d rather not do anyway
"At last our prime minister has explained why we’re sick of Europe; because the Europeans have been coming here to “jump the queue (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-eu-migrants-hate-crime-jump-queue-cbi-speech-conservatives-a8643456.html)”.
To take just one example, across Britain there are Polish dentists, even though there are thousands of British citizens who aren’t dentists. The EU may object that those people have never shown any interest in dentistry and don’t know anything about teeth, but that’s because they hate Britain.
Because once the Europeans aren’t allowed to jump the queue, you’ll get someone BRITISH, instead of being forced to allow some Pole to poke you about. You’ll have a four inch hole in your lip and your wisdom teeth will be sticking out of your nose but it will be a BRITISH disfigurement. ..."
(Mark Steel)

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eu-migrants-nations-theresa-may-jumping-queue-cbi-speech-conference-a8646771.html

Rum_Pirate
11-22-2018, 09:15 AM
May will almost certainly get the votes of 158 Conservative MPs, so she will continue to be leader of the Conservative Party, even if the Moggies send in 48 letters to the Chairman of the 1922 Committee.

The DUP will almost certainly vote with the Tories on a motion of no confidence because they don't want an election either.

Corbyn will do nothing for as long as he possibly can. :dLOL:D