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Mike Seibert
11-14-2018, 12:37 PM
Well - the "to do" list for Lightning 15451 is getting shorter each week and will come to an end this Winter . . . so I am thinking . . . I will be 70 next year and plan to enjoy my Lightning as long as possible, but my knees are bad and my Lightning days are numbered, and I will need another boat when I get old.

So . . . about 25 ft, with a small cabin and much more stability, but still sporty enough to have some fun in the Thursday night races. A planing hull would be a nice bonus. And it needs to be one that can be single-handed by an old guy.

Sailing will be in the deeps of Lake Champlain, so a full keel would be OK. But I understand that keel/centerboard boats may be a good compromise between stability and speed, so that is where I am leaning.

Build or Buy? My Lightning will have taken 8 years, lots of that because it was my 1st and also because I spent 15 months restoring my old Lightning . . . but there is no denying that I am a very slow builder.

If I build, I am thinking about the Mark Bowdidge gap method of strip planking sheathed inside and out with FG cloth. The West tech guys tell me the method is good and the build would go much faster than the carvel planked Lightning. FG is OK with me at this point, because I have had just about all of the varnishing fun I can stand with my bright finished Lightning.

So, anyway, looking for ideas . . . the more the merrier.

A couple of Lightning pictures are attached.

Thanks,

Mike

26392



26393

Bob Cleek
11-14-2018, 01:40 PM
Well, the WEST guys are in the business of selling epoxy, so consider that for starters. Strip planking can be faster to build, but consider the downside factors: 1) higher cost (the epoxy,) 2) nasty work (sanding epoxy, fumes, etc. etc. etc.,) 3) potential for expensive repairs in the future, 4) lower resale value.

Are you interested more, or as much as, in building as in sailing? If not, then look for a good used boat. Are you going to keep her in the water or on a trailer. That will define your choices further.

We're the same age and looking at the same challenges. Don't think "now," but think five or ten years from now. You probably won't be doing a lot of racing unless somebody else is going to be sailing the boat and you are just along for the ride. That's no fun, I'd expect. It's time to "pick the slow horse for the long ride." Or maybe not so "slow," but "more comfortable." As Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations." There's certainly no point in owning a boat that is more than we can comfortably sail in our "dotage."

It's a personal choice. The most you can hope for is to get a feel of what other people would do, but they aren't you. I'd be looking for something that was simple, basic in terms of maintenance and operation, comfortable, capable of a good turn of speed in all conditions, and elegant. Like perhaps an L.F. Herreshoff Rozinante, N.G. Herreshoff Alerion,or the like.

https://cdn.moreboats.com/boats/26859.5582ae9e159f38960ddd67b7.sm.jpg

http://photos.mostsailboats.org/1982/h/1982-Herreshoff-Rozinante_30013_4.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/35da02314fc4e42aded1c0a669784e78/tumblr_mpkqnlC1EF1s3yusyo1_500.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2346/2423052915_ab9f87587d_o.jpg

http://www.ballentinesboatshop.com/images/roz.jpg

SailAR
11-14-2018, 03:31 PM
How about an i550? Lots of build blogs to follow. Lead ballasted. Planing hull.

http://i550class.org/

Mike Seibert
11-15-2018, 09:42 PM
Bob - I really appreciate the thoughtful and very helpful response. I love the looks of the Herreshoff boat and would probably love the way they sail, but I don't think much of the prices they fetch. I am afraid I will have to settle for something more modest. I doubt I will go over 20K, so I think most if not all of the NGH collection would be out of my range.

I have been known to say that the male ego does not age gracefully. I'm working on accepting my limitations, but it is a work in progress. Not ready to shop for a station wagon-like sailboat quite yet.

By the way, the racing I am talking about is just our super informal sail around the race course while waiting for the Thursday night barbecue to start.

Mike

jpatrick
11-16-2018, 01:01 PM
Seven years is a long time to be building a boat when a fellow starts at age 70. And you're talking about a more complicated boat, so maybe ten instead of seven? You'll be 80 when you finish. And that's OK if you want to be building a boat for ten years. But if that were the case, I doubt this thread would have been started.

I'll be 71 in January.

Jeff

J.Madison
11-16-2018, 01:13 PM
Here's a Roz listed for $29k, which if I know anything about wooden boats, means you can buy it for $20k.

http://www.yachtingsolutions.com/boat/1973/herreshoff/rozinante-34-canoe-yawl-34-ketch/1080/

Such a beauty. Looks like everything could be done from the cockpit if you add a jib furler when no longer comfortable going on the foredeck.

http://www.yachtingsolutions.com/yachtimage/1080/bigger/4390837_20130614133501933_1_XLARGE.jpg

The cockpit looks so comfortable compared to nearly all other boats.

http://www.yachtingsolutions.com/yachtimage/1080/bigger/4390837_20130725070051362_1_XLARGE.jpg

There is a lot to be said for having the best looking boat on the course!

http://www.yachtingsolutions.com/yachtimage/1080/bigger/4390837_20130725064424472_1_XLARGE.jpg

Bob Cleek
11-16-2018, 01:28 PM
Bob - I really appreciate the thoughtful and very helpful response. I love the looks of the Herreshoff boat and would probably love the way they sail, but I don't think much of the prices they fetch. I am afraid I will have to settle for something more modest. I doubt I will go over 20K, so I think most if not all of the NGH collection would be out of my range.

I have been known to say that the male ego does not age gracefully. I'm working on accepting my limitations, but it is a work in progress. Not ready to shop for a station wagon-like sailboat quite yet.

By the way, the racing I am talking about is just our super informal sail around the race course while waiting for the Thursday night barbecue to start.

Mike

I saw the $50K to $75K prices they were asking for used Rozinantes when I googled those pictures and was amazed at what they were asking. I found them hard to believe, particularly given the low prices so many wooden boats fetch. The Rozinante, built as designed without an inboard engine or fancy plumbing and electrical systems, was intended to be a relatively inexpensive, simple boat for the average sailor. Let this be a lesson about resale value considerations for those who pick boats to build!

If you are more interested in sailing than building and cost is a consideration, as it is for most all of us, much as I hate to say so, the best bet is a used, well-found fiberglass production boat that strikes your fancy. There are many to choose from and good ones can often be found in that size range for a few thousand bucks. You might consider a Santana 22. There are a lot of them on the market and they run between $1K and $3.5K (with a trailer.)

Bob Cleek
11-16-2018, 01:49 PM
Here's a Roz listed for $29k, which if I know anything about wooden boats, means you can buy it for $20k.

http://www.yachtingsolutions.com/boat/1973/herreshoff/rozinante-34-canoe-yawl-34-ketch/1080/

Such a beauty. Looks like everything could be done from the cockpit if you add a jib furler when no longer comfortable going on the foredeck.

The cockpit looks so comfortable compared to nearly all other boats.

No need for a jib furler at all. Jib handling may be done from below by simply standing in the open forward hatch. It's a piece of cake. Another feature that's often overlooked is that with a boom tent, you gain additional sleeping space in the cockpit if you ever need it. If an engine is desired, a small outboard on the quarter is all she needs, although LFH intended her to be rowed standing up in the cockpit with sweeps port and starboard, another reason for the deeper, non-self-bailing cockpit. LFH thought of everything, of course.

The only compromises in the Rozinante design are that 1) the wonderfully spacious and deep, sheltered cockpit comes at the cost of its not being self-bailing and 2) the mizzen mast placement mandates a relatively short tiller and requires the helmsman's moving around the mizzen and main sheet tackle when changing tacks, which can be a bit inconvenient. All things considered, these are small prices to pay for what is just about the most perfectly conceived boat of its kind ever designed and one generally considered the most beautiful boat of its size ever.

Favorite
11-16-2018, 02:48 PM
I doubt I will go over 20K, so I think most if not all of the NGH collection would be out of my range.
There was a beautiful Eel around Seattle that went for less than that. I was seriously lusting over her but decided to go stinkpot instead.

Luckily, I found a stinkpot that was even less practical than the Eel would have been :D

JimConlin
11-16-2018, 08:44 PM
At the age of 45 years, a lightly-built plank-on-frame boat is an ongoing maintenance project. The purchase price is just the beginning. For an owner with a trust fund or youth and skills, it might be sustainable. Without those, it's an expensive compost pile.

Rozinante was designed by L Francis Herreshoff, not his father, Nathaniel Greene Herreshoff.

johnw
11-16-2018, 09:10 PM
You know, for your specifications a 26' Thunderbird is pretty close. You can get plans from the class website.

http://thunderbirdsailing.org/plans/

http://thunderbirdsailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LoftedDrawing.gif

You might also take a look at what plans are available through Duckworks.

Woxbox
11-16-2018, 10:23 PM
Interesting question, Mike. The performance requirement gets me thinking about more modern types -- you didn't say you wanted a traditional looking boat. Some of Dudley Dix's boats fit your description. Like the MiniMk3, (https://www.dixdesign.com/didiminicruiseMk3.htm) for example. It can be built with a lifting keel, and otherwise fits the description of what you're looking for functionally. You can put it together from a precut kit, which will save many hours of labor. It should be a hoot to sail, and make a very stable platform with it's huge beam. And that may be the deal breaker. Too wide to tow without a permit.

https://www.dixdesign.com/cruiseminiMk3rig.jpg

BTW, I went through the same thinking process last year. I had sold my 27' trimaran in order to downsize. I used to race the tri, but racing wasn't in my future plans. I also wanted to get away from boats with motors. So I went to the smallest boat that offers a comfortable cabin, one that I can row when the wind dies. My choice was CLC's Autumn Leaves.

But before I came to that conclusion, I considered a long list of both plans and commercially available plastic boats. I was seriously thinking about an 18' or 19' catboat. There are lots of them on the market. They offer what you're looking for except high performance. Another boat I always admired is the Rob Roy. There are always a few available at reasonable prices. Not nearly as fast as that Dix machine, but very attractive as production boats go.

https://sailboatdata.com/storage/images/sailboat/photo/rob_roy_23_photo.jpg

SBrookman
11-17-2018, 08:43 AM
I'd say you need to decide how much you enjoy building boats. If you like the building part and are happy sailing your lightning that's one way to go. However if you're itching to get out on a bigger boat it's a buyer's market and you could be sailing on one tomorrow, or next spring anyway. That's a big spread of options.
I faced a similar decision, although I'm much younger, a mere 66. Since I had a boat to sail (melonseed) and enjoy building but realized I would like to be sailing the next boat by 70 so I opted for Gartside's Sjogin III vs Sjogin II. 2000 hrs less build time and maybe closer to my building level. We will see if I can get it on the water in time.

amish rob
11-17-2018, 10:48 AM
CoreSound 20 MkIII? Cabin, reasonably fast, water ballast, comes in kit form...

Peace,
Robert

Mike Seibert
11-17-2018, 11:43 AM
With the benefit of all the responses and a little more time, and bearing mind those annoying limitations, I believe my ticket is to buy a used FG keel or keel/centerboard boat. Just thinking about quickly building a 25 ft boat is making my head spin.

If I find the Vermont Winters intolerable without a boat project, I may build something smaller, just for the fun of it. There are lots of great looking classic sailboats in the 16 ft range.

Still would love to hear suggestions for a FG boat that would be a nice balance between speedy and stable.

Favorite
11-17-2018, 01:27 PM
With the benefit of all the responses and a little more time, and bearing mind those annoying limitations, I believe my ticket is to buy a used FG keel or keel/centerboard boat. .

But ... oh, my ... if you started last week

https://www.offcenterharbor.com/dream-boat-harbor-good-boats-for-sale/2010-william-fife-gaff-rigged-sloop/


(https://www.offcenterharbor.com/dream-boat-harbor-good-boats-for-sale/2010-william-fife-gaff-rigged-sloop/)Add a hammock and a butane stove and you could even go camping for a few days :)

JimConlin
11-17-2018, 02:43 PM
With the benefit of all the responses and a little more time, and bearing mind those annoying limitations, I believe my ticket is to buy a used FG keel or keel/centerboard boat. Just thinking about quickly building a 25 ft boat is making my head spin.

If I find the Vermont Winters intolerable without a boat project, I may build something smaller, just for the fun of it. There are lots of great looking classic sailboats in the 16 ft range.

Still would love to hear suggestions for a FG boat that would be a nice balance between speedy and stable.
After spending seven years building a 29' trimaran and debugging/enjoying it for eight, I parked it and got an Alerion Express 28. I'm 75, not getting any more able with the years, sail on Buzzards Bay, and enjoy the local Wednesday racing, single-handing on nice days and daysailing with a crowd of kids, etc. I find the boat just about perfect for my uses. True, they're a couple of notches above the $20K price point, but he maintenance won't eat you alive and they seem to hold value well.
Other boats I like at lower cost would include Alberg Typhoon, Sea Sprite, Cape Dory 25 and other earlier Alberg designs.

johnw
11-17-2018, 03:48 PM
When i was a kid, my family owned a Barnegat 20, which had a hull similar to a Lightning and a 250 lb keel like the one on a 110, plus a cuddy cabin. You could easily modify the Lightning to have those characteristics, and wouldn't need to build another boat.

Phil Y
11-17-2018, 04:03 PM
I've always liked the S80. Nice quick, flat glass boat with a bit of accomodation.

Woxbox
11-17-2018, 08:50 PM
Dick Newick used to say that he could design a boat for any two of three qualities: fast, cheap and comfortable. But never all three together. I'm afraid, Mike, that you're looking for the whole enchilada.

If you were to give up the price restraint, a trimaran would do the job nicely. If you pass on comfortable, which I take as your desire for stability, then any of the racer or even racer/cruiser boats from the later decades of the last century could work. And if you pass on the fast part, then those classic styled deep keel cruisers hit the mark.

But you can't have it all. Which two qualities can you not part with? I'm suspecting the suggestions for one of the many Alberg designed cruisers would be the ticket.

Mike Seibert
11-17-2018, 11:07 PM
Dave - if I could get fast and comfortable, I would seriously consider paying more . . . but I don't relate to multi-hulls . . . .

JimConlin
11-17-2018, 11:44 PM
Fast is relative.
For systematic data. PHRF ratings are useful. Faster boats have lower ratings.
Here's the list in these parts. http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/base_handicaps
Heres's a list of Farrier multihull ratings: http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/base_handicaps

The Lightning's PHRF rating (without spinnaker) is 186.

TomMcKinney
11-19-2018, 01:26 AM
Since you mentioned FG, how about a Freedom 25? Should fit a lot if your requirements with its speed and simplicity.

JimConlin
11-19-2018, 08:50 PM
Since you mentioned FG, how about a Freedom 25? Should fit a lot if your requirements with its speed and simplicity.
The Freedom 25ís base PHRF rating is 201, meaning itís 15 seconds a mile slower than a Lightning.

johnw
11-19-2018, 09:01 PM
The Freedom 25’s base PHRF rating is 201, meaning it’s 15 seconds a mile slower than a Lightning.

Many keelboats are slower than racing dinghies. You pay a price for stability and safety.

Here are the Portsmouth Yardstick numbers for comparison: https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/2017-Portsmouth-Precalculated-Classes.pdf

The Freedom 25 rates nearly as fast as a Dragon.

earling2
11-20-2018, 01:01 PM
Holy cow! My second "big" boat was a Barnegat 20. Talk about obscure. It used a lightning rig (or at least sail plain) and a 110 keel and a raised-freeboard lighning hull with a small cabin.. Kind of a cool boat. I think it sailed pretty well but I never sailed it all that much, so I have almost no data. Had quite an adventurous trip down from Boston to Martha's Vineyard that kind of put me off of it for a while

earling2
11-20-2018, 01:03 PM
When i was a kid, my family owned a Barnegat 20, which had a hull similar to a Lightning and a 250 lb keel like the one on a 110, plus a cuddy cabin. You could easily modify the Lightning to have those characteristics, and wouldn't need to build another boat.

Holy cow! My second "big" boat was a Barnegat 20, made by Graves in Marblehead. House design. Talk about obscure. It used a lightning rig (or at least sail plain) and a 110 keel and a raised-freeboard lighning hull with a small cabin.. Kind of a cool boat. I think it sailed pretty well but I never sailed it all that much, so I have almost no data. Had quite an adventurous trip down from Boston to Martha's Vineyard that kind of put me off of it for a while

johnw
11-20-2018, 01:29 PM
Holy cow! My second "big" boat was a Barnegat 20, made by Graves in Marblehead. House design. Talk about obscure. It used a lightning rig (or at least sail plain) and a 110 keel and a raised-freeboard lighning hull with a small cabin.. Kind of a cool boat. I think it sailed pretty well but I never sailed it all that much, so I have almost no data. Had quite an adventurous trip down from Boston to Martha's Vineyard that kind of put me off of it for a while
We were about as fast as a Lightning to windward, but slower off the wind. We named our boat the Pelican, after an Ogden Nash poem:

Observe the marvelous pelican,
its beak can hold more than its belly can.

Because the boat had a huge cockpit and a tiny cabin. Ours was a later model, with the masthead rig but the same sails.

JimConlin
11-20-2018, 07:58 PM
I've been thinking lately that borrowing parts like keels and rigs from other designs might have a payoff. Some widely raced as one-design fleets like J/24's are being scrapped. Their rigs and keels might have more life in a boat intended for pleasure sailing without needing 6-800 lbs. of rail meat. The cost of the rig and keel from a scrapped J/?? would be a fraction of their new cost and more fully developed than an amateur builder is likely to execute.

earling2
12-04-2018, 02:41 PM
I'm so amazed to "meet" somebody else who had one of those. I was impressed with how it sailed, in my short acquaintance, and I really like the general idea of taking an existing rig and existing keel and existing bottom and turning it into a small cruiser. It did have a very tiny cabin.

That boat was actually listed in "Sailboat Classes of North America," a book I pored over as a kid.

paxtonm
12-04-2018, 02:46 PM
When I read your post, Dudley Dix popped into my head right away. As already stated, a Thunderbird is a good choice, and one you wouldn't have to build if you shop the marketplace. Sweet little boats.