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Bob Adams
11-12-2018, 04:37 PM
This monument has been standing for 100 years. Seems to me it isn't harming anyone.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/federal-court-upholds-ruling-that-cross-shaped-monument-on-public-land-in-md-is-unconstitutional/2018/03/02/85d73b28-1e2d-11e8-b2d9-08e748f892c0_story.html?utm_term=.8e7580f90f03

Decourcy
11-12-2018, 04:42 PM
If the descendants of the people for whom the monument was built are not offended by it, it should remain.

Keith Wilson
11-12-2018, 04:51 PM
I see the point of the decision. The government should not be erecting veterans' memorials in one specific religious tradition; if that's not a state endorsement of Christianity, what is? OTOH, knocking it down seems excessive. It's not like a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest.

birlinn
11-12-2018, 04:53 PM
If the descendants of the people for whom the monument was built are not offended by it, it should remain.

agreed.

Peerie Maa
11-12-2018, 04:56 PM
Article (Amendment 1 - Freedom of expression and religion) [I]13 (http://constitutionus.com/#n13)Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
This is all in the future tense, there is nothing that suggests a retrospective application of the amendment. Let The memorial stand.

Should these buildings be demolished?

Some of the most important monuments, buildings, and landmarks in Washington, D.C., include religious words, symbols, and imagery. In the United States Capitol the declaration “In God We Trust” is prominently displayed in both the United States House and Senate Chambers.

Around the top of the walls in the House Chamber appear images of 23 great lawgivers from across the centuries, but Moses (the lawgiver, who– according to the Bible – originally received the law of God,) is the only lawgiver honored with a full face view, looking down on the proceedings of the House.

Religious artwork is found throughout the United States Capitol, including in the Rotunda where the prayer service of Christopher Columbus, the Baptism of Pocahontas, and the prayer and Bible study of the Pilgrims are all prominently displayed; in the Cox Corridor of the Capitol where the words “America! God shed His grace on thee” are inscribed; at the east Senate entrance with the words “Annuit Coeptis” – Latin for “God has favored our undertakings”; and in numerous other locations.

Images of the Ten Commandments are found in many federal buildings across Washington, D. C., including in bronze in the floor of the National Archives; in a bronze statue of Moses in the Main Reading Room of the Library of Congress; in numerous locations at the U. S. Supreme Court, including in the frieze above the Justices, the oak door at the rear of the Chamber, the gable apex, and in dozens of locations on the bronze latticework surrounding the Supreme Court Bar seating.

Chris Smith porter maine
11-12-2018, 04:56 PM
The land it sits on should be sold to a non-profit for a $1.

leikec
11-12-2018, 04:56 PM
I'd leave it alone.

Jeff C

paulf
11-12-2018, 05:05 PM
What about the other Vets? Agnostics, Jews, Buddhist, Islamic, Atheist? Not all Vets are Christian.

Peerie Maa
11-12-2018, 05:07 PM
I see the point of the decision. The government should not be erecting veterans' memorials in one specific religious tradition; if that's not a state endorsement of Christianity, what is? OTOH, knocking it down seems excessive. It's not like a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest.

The Government did not erect it. It was already standing on some land that they needed for road infrastructure.

wizbang 13
11-12-2018, 05:13 PM
What about the other Vets? Agnostics, Jews, Buddhist, Islamic, Atheist? Not all Vets are Christian.

It is built for 49 guys. Were THEY all christian?

Keith Wilson
11-12-2018, 05:14 PM
The Government did not erect it. It was already standing on some land that they needed for road infrastructure.Ah, right, missed that; moving too fast. It seems there ought to be a creative way to leave it alone; maybe sell the land to somebody else as Chris suggested.


The park and planning commission took control of the land in 1961 because of its location at the intersection of U.S. Route 1 and Maryland Route 450 in Bladensburg. The state agency pays for upkeep and repairs.

sarnella
11-12-2018, 05:31 PM
https://static.interestingengineering.com/images/JUNE/sizes/Luxembourg-Cemetery_resize_md.jpg

Peerie Maa
11-12-2018, 05:33 PM
Ah, right, missed that; moving too fast. It seems there ought to be a creative way to leave it alone; maybe sell the land to somebody else as Chris suggested.

Gonna sell all of those buildings listed in my post 5 as well?

Sobell
11-12-2018, 05:34 PM
Of course it needs to be taken down and jackhammered. America is not going to be destroyed if it is allowed to keep its monuments, culture and history. Knock 'er down.

Peerie Maa
11-12-2018, 05:36 PM
^Thank you for contributing.

Nicholas Scheuer
11-12-2018, 05:44 PM
We certainly do not want a cross on the Federal property of a so-called "Cristian" nation, do we?

Tom Montgomery
11-12-2018, 05:47 PM
https://static.interestingengineering.com/images/JUNE/sizes/Luxembourg-Cemetery_resize_md.jpg



That's a nice photo of the American Cemetery in Normandy, France. Here is another:



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4CIraZY_z7U/S_Iv4m3zZqI/AAAAAAAAAH8/tTktX6NLgsA/s1600/P5170037.JPG

ahp
11-12-2018, 05:47 PM
I don't know where Sarnella took or obtained that misleading photo. I have visited the United States cemetery in Normandy. Mixed in with the crosses there are Stars of David.

Keith Wilson
11-12-2018, 05:50 PM
The photo in #12 is the Meuse-Argonne American Cemetery in France. The crosses mark the graves of individual soldiers who were Christians. There are also stars of David for Jewish soldiers. No problem with that at all.

McMike
11-12-2018, 05:55 PM
Of course it needs to be taken down and jackhammered. America is not going to be destroyed if it is allowed to keep its monuments, culture and history. Knock 'er down.

I'm okay with it staying up . . . but you remember what happened last time a religious symbol was allowed to stand on government land? This happened (https://abcnews.go.com/US/satanist-statue-nearing-completion/story?id=23562440) . . . :D

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ht_satan_statue_1_kab_140502_4x3_992.jpg

Bob Adams
11-12-2018, 05:59 PM
Maybe selling the land for a buck might be the best answer, but then someone would sue about that. It hasn't harmed a soul in 100 years. Seems to me to be a big to do about nothing and a waste of the court's time.

Chris Smith porter maine
11-12-2018, 06:01 PM
Gonna sell all of those buildings listed in my post 5 as well?

Of course not Nick, my suggestion was just a simple, legal here if voter approved way to solve this problem, save the monument, and leave it right where it is, win win.

Peerie Maa
11-12-2018, 06:07 PM
That's a nice photo of the American Cemetary in Normandy, France. Here is another:



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4CIraZY_z7U/S_Iv4m3zZqI/AAAAAAAAAH8/tTktX6NLgsA/s1600/P5170037.JPG

They do not have to be and not all are as in your face.
This
http://modern-ruins.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/headstone2-785x523.jpg
from the comments on this site. https://thenewstalkers.com/community/discussion/35544/a-40-foot-cross-has-honored-war-dead-for-90-years-is-it-unlawful

I think that I remember discussion on this when it first went to court?

Cross post with Donn.

oznabrag
11-12-2018, 06:49 PM
I'm okay with it staying up . . . but you remember what happened last time a religious symbol was allowed to stand on government land? This happened (https://abcnews.go.com/US/satanist-statue-nearing-completion/story?id=23562440) . . . :D

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ht_satan_statue_1_kab_140502_4x3_992.jpg

I had no idea that Satan was a Boy Scout.

Ogden Nash was on to something!

Peerie Maa
11-12-2018, 06:52 PM
Of course not Nick, my suggestion was just a simple, legal here if voter approved way to solve this problem, save the monument, and leave it right where it is, win win.

Can I have my hook back please?

Sad that hypocrisy is still alive and well in the wonderful US of A though. ;)

Bob Adams
11-12-2018, 06:53 PM
I had no idea that Satan was a Boy Scout.

Ogden Nash was on to something!

Boy Scout is 3 fingers.

oznabrag
11-12-2018, 06:54 PM
Boy Scout is 3 fingers.
Dang!
It has been a long time!

McMike
11-12-2018, 06:55 PM
Boy Scout is 3 fingers.

That's what she said . . .

Paul Pless
11-12-2018, 06:55 PM
Cub scouts is two.

Decourcy
11-12-2018, 07:00 PM
A building in a town near me has swastikas in the brickwork. It was built long before the modern negative connotation. Should it be torn down because the symbol has become offensive?

At the time that this monument was built, a cross would have been the normal and natural choice. It wasn't built as a symbol of hate towards other religions or peoples, it was built as a symbol of rememberance for those that gave their lives.

If your government chooses not to fund the building or maintenance of future monuments with religious symbols so be it, but to remove history is dangerous.

oznabrag
11-12-2018, 07:02 PM
Cub scouts is two.
:D!

Peerie Maa
11-12-2018, 07:04 PM
A building in a town near me has swastikas in the brickwork. It was built long before the modern negative connotation. Should it be torn down because the symbol has become offensive?

At the time that this monument was built, a cross would have been the normal and natural choice. It wasn't built as a symbol of hate towards other religions or peoples, it was built as a symbol of rememberance for those that gave their lives.

If your government chooses not to fund the building or maintenance of future monuments with religious symbols so be it, but to remove history is dangerous.

Does it roll clockwise or anti?

Chris Smith porter maine
11-12-2018, 07:04 PM
Can I have my hook back please?

Sad that hypocrisy is still alive and well in the wonderful US of A though. ;)

You will be cutting Northern Ireland and Scotland loose after Brexit of course. :)

oznabrag
11-12-2018, 07:05 PM
“A Boy Scout is a fiend to everyone, and a bother to every other Scout.”

Ogden Nash

Decourcy
11-12-2018, 07:07 PM
Does it roll clockwise or anti?

To the left of the door is one orientation, to the right is the other.

paulf
11-12-2018, 07:15 PM
It is built for 49 guys. Were THEY all christian?

Ya ..but I find most, having been a vet, is like, signing up to a christian Hug! That ain't me.

paulf
11-12-2018, 07:23 PM
Sorry sobell, I should have died then.

Peerie Maa
11-12-2018, 07:25 PM
You will be cutting Northern Ireland and Scotland loose after Brexit of course. :)

Ironically it would be good if we could cut Norn Iron free, but they want to stay British with their own exceptions. Whilst the Scots hate everyone apart from the French and want to stay in Europe. This was a problem for them when they had their independence referendum before the BREXIT vote.

Chris Smith porter maine
11-12-2018, 07:55 PM
Ironically it would be good if we could cut Norn Iron free, but they want to stay British with their own exceptions. Whilst the Scots hate everyone apart from the French and want to stay in Europe. This was a problem for them when they had their independence referendum before the BREXIT vote.

Interesting I think Europe would welcome an oil exporting Scotland into it's folds, and Ireland has wanted it's North back for 100's of years, challenging times for the sun never sets on the British empire.

skuthorp
11-12-2018, 08:11 PM
It is built for 49 guys. Were THEY all christian?
So it was built for 49 who served, locals I presume and on what was private land?

If so the Authority assuming the land also assumed responsibility. They can move it, or keep it.

I also do not like the politically correct editing history.
And as far as religions are concerned, the Religions of the Book have been editing constantly since the year one. And remember Thomas Bowdler?

BrianY
11-12-2018, 08:47 PM
Leave it alone. The preservation of past traditions is part of our collective history and as long as those traditions are not causing significant harm to anyone now, I see no reason to get rid of them. If a few people take offense to the cross, I consider that the lesser harm than the removal of the monument.

That being said, I would oppose a new government-funded monument that contains religious symbolism.

Todd D
11-12-2018, 09:02 PM
Keep the plaque, but knock the cross down.

gypsie
11-12-2018, 09:48 PM
After 100 years it must have some heritage value?

But it looks pretty awful.
Smog stained concrete. A memorial is important to the community, but it can be something else.

Tom Hunter
11-12-2018, 09:49 PM
I think its a bad ruling. If it is true that the land was taken at a later date then the court could have ruled that it stays on that basis. Government taking of private land that has a religious symbol on it does not constitute government endorsement of that religion.

It's especially true when the monument is there for a purpose, memorializing those veterans, that is not religious.

Canoeyawl
11-12-2018, 10:02 PM
https://tribwgntv.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/wreaths-across-america-in-arlington-national-cemetery_30863512804_o.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&w=2000

Looks like Robert E Lee's plantation overlooking the Potomac.

Chosen as an appropriate symbol for the confederacy

Jimmy W
11-12-2018, 10:27 PM
In the Google street maps view, it had a cover over the top. It looks like it was part of a larger park and the roads were built through. There is another small park across the road and both are pretty shut off from access. Perhaps it should be moved to a better location where people can actually get to it without having to dodge traffic.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9394133,-76.9409167,174m/data=!3m1!1e3

Lew Barrett
11-13-2018, 02:09 AM
I'm in the let it be camp and I'm not Christian. It's a silly fight especially taking the story into consideration. But even without a corroborating story it's a useless provocation when there are real problems to attend to.

PeterSibley
11-13-2018, 02:11 AM
Replace it with something like this ?
https://vanishingsouthgeorgia.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/nashville-ga-the-spirit-of-the-american-doughboy-wwi-statue-photograph-copyright-brian-brown-vanishing-south-georgia-usa-2010.jpg

RFNK
11-13-2018, 04:12 AM
I had no idea that Satan was a Boy Scout.

Ogden Nash was on to something!

Not a very bright one if he was.

Rick

switters
06-20-2019, 05:17 PM
https://www.legion.org/honor/246061/legion-wins-bladensburg-memorial-supreme-court-case

Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. wrote the majority opinion.
“The cross is undoubtedly a Christian symbol, but that fact should not blind us to everything else that the Bladensburg Cross has come to represent,” he wrote. “For some, that monument is a symbolic resting place for ancestors who never returned home. For others, it is a place for the community to gather and honor all veterans and their sacrifices for our nation. For others still, it is a historical landmark. For many of these people, destroying or defacing the cross that has stood undisturbed for nearly a century would not be neutral and would not further the ideals of respect and tolerance embodied in the First Amendment.”

Dan McCosh
06-20-2019, 05:23 PM
No photo, but I once did a story about a local church that built a burning cross out of rock and roll records.

skuthorp
06-20-2019, 06:13 PM
Maybe selling the land for a buck might be the best answer, but then someone would sue about that. It hasn't harmed a soul in 100 years. Seems to me to be a big to do about nothing and a waste of the court's time.

Its a memorial to a group of men who died in the service of their country, the present lot of haters should have no rights in the matter I'd say. It is on land compulsorily acquired by the State and pre-dates their interest in the property.
And I'm a complete unbeliever. Let it stand.

Osborne Russell
06-20-2019, 06:48 PM
“The cross is undoubtedly a Christian symbol, but that fact should not blind us to everything else that the Bladensburg Cross has come to represent,” he wrote. “For some, that monument is a symbolic resting place for ancestors who never returned home. For others, it is a place for the community to gather and honor all veterans and their sacrifices for our nation. For others still, it is a historical landmark. For many of these people, destroying or defacing the cross that has stood undisturbed for nearly a century would not be neutral and would not further the ideals of respect and tolerance embodied in the First Amendment.”

If it has come to represent all these things, then another symbol might come to represent them as well. Say, a statue of an eagle, which is undoubtedly not a Christian symbol. So why a cross?

Bob Adams
06-20-2019, 07:56 PM
Ruling came down today. It can stay. As it should.

Phil Y
06-20-2019, 10:41 PM
Personally I think pretty much all Christian monuments should be torn down. Symbols of hatred, intolerance, and oppression dressed up in a cloak of fake virtue.

Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

skuthorp
06-21-2019, 02:35 AM
Personally I think pretty much all Christian monuments should be torn down. Symbols of hatred, intolerance, and oppression dressed up in a cloak of fake virtue.

Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
That has not much to do with the original philosophy, and everything to do with man's corrupting influence on everything it touches. Christianity as we know it was stuffed the minute the Roman Empire adopted it as a State religion and 'edited' it's documentation to suit the power structure of the day. That 'editing' has continued and continues to the present day. All in the cause of political power and influence.

Osborne Russell
06-21-2019, 11:44 AM
That has not much to do with the original philosophy, and everything to do with man's corrupting influence on everything it touches. Christianity as we know it was stuffed the minute the Roman Empire adopted it as a State religion and 'edited' it's documentation to suit the power structure of the day. That 'editing' has continued and continues to the present day. All in the cause of political power and influence.

"As it should be" as Mr. Adams would say.

Durnik
06-21-2019, 12:02 PM
tldr; all monuments to war and death should be eliminated.

'hurt no one in 100 years'.. privilege is when something isn't a problem because it isn't a problem to you.

SKIP KILPATRICK
06-21-2019, 12:51 PM
No leave it up! I never get tired of Christians shoving their religion in my face.

But, I think my old buddy Han said it best:

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/99/99cedf0ff3d9ea42403166b579fc31957072e63e1f4648565d f67cd3ae2902bb.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjcvKOakfviAhVCWK0KHfrSCNQQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quickmeme.com%2Fmeme%2F3r621z&psig=AOvVaw335Bftt3DA5DAdiUG-HQKN&ust=1561225717804515)

Shall not be infringed, bitches!