How torture works in Rio de Janeiro - something for Americans to muse on...

[George.]

Rio is experiencing an ever-worsening crime wave, including terrorism. Last week, a bus was set alight with molotov cocktails by a drug gang, in retaliation for the killing of one of its members. Five people died, including a mother and small child.

The Rio police is notoriously incompetent and corrupt. They seem unable to carry out an efficient investigation. But occasionally, public pressure over some outrage or flurry of crime forces them to do "something." So they do.

They go into the favelas, arrest a bunch of "suspects," and torture them. The theory is that they will obtain information that way. Now, not even the Rio police are naive enough to believe that torturing specific "high-value" suspects will produce reliable information. They know it won't. But the theory is that if you torture a whole slew of people, some of them at least will provide bits of information that can be checked against what others said. In that way, you can put together bits and pieces and try to come up with a "big picture" - a fuzzy and incomplete one, but better than nothing.

Of course, the process necessarely involves torturing a whole bunch of people who are innocent and have nothing to say, but that's a "necessary evil", since the system depends on triage. Much like trawling for shrimp.

That's the theory. In practice, what happens is that sooner or later, the innocents that were tortured have to be released - even the Rio police can't get away with just killing them all. They go back to the favela and tell their friends and relatives. The entire favela ends up hating the police much more than they hate the drug gangs.

So the next time the cops come, they get no sympathy or help. No one provides information. No one turns anyone in. The police can't develop a network of informants and collaborators through persuasion of bribery - and everyone who understands law enforcement knows that without one, there can be no law enforcement. The drug gangs strengthen their position. The crime wave gets worse.

Amazingly enough, after thirty years of this spiral into chaos, there are still people here who think that "criminals" should not have "human rights," and that if only the police were a little harsher, things might start to work out...

[Wild Dingo]

Gotta love this one George!!
Talk about opening up the flood gates to let the yanks get you back!! :D :D :D

From my unAmerican view its plain sad that Brazil or any country with such a vivid and beautiful culture has fallen so far

Be safe and have a great chrissy ol matey :cool:

[George.]

It's tragic. It's a spiral of stupidity. Fortunately, it is confined to big cities. I still leave my door unlocked, and there is nowhere around here, rich or poor neighborhood, where I can't walk around at night...

If you think I argue with the Yanks about torture, you should see me take it up with a reactionary Carioca!

[Dan McCosh]

Hasn't it been less than 20 years since Brazil has had a freely elected government?

[George.]

In 1964, a military coup overthrew a freely elected government. The next free elections were in 1982. In 1985, a civilian president took over, but he was not elected - he was chosen by the Congress. In 1990 we had our first freely elected president in 26 years. And in 2002, Brazil became the first Latin American country to elect a left-wing president from the opposition with no disruption, no coup, not even an economic crisis.

Torture as government policy went out with the military dictatorship (CIA backed, by the way). But police brutality, including torture to extract confessions from suspects, is a longstanding habit around here. And I dare say that we as a society will know no peace until we eliminate it.

[LeeG]

but,but,but,but,,,you don't have wmd or ticking time bombs so that's different,,,we have wmd and ticking time bombs. Cheney said so.

Anyway Rice said we don't do torture in places where it's illegal.
9/11 changed everything. Even the laws of science are in question.

[ishmael]

Bangor remains a rather insular backwater of Americana. Once a lumber town, that died and it went through twenty years of solitude. But now, as Portland has become more and more yuppified, people have begun to look North. Bangor has become the new boom town of Maine. People looking for lifestyle, not timber. It makes sense. A climate on par with Portland, and Penobscot Bay just down the road.

That by way of background. We had our first drive by robbery the other night. A guy just walking in his neighborhood was accosted by two young men in a hopped car. Your money or your life, gun brandished. He surrendered his change. For the first time, in the last year gangbangers, young black men, with the wannabe signatures of du rags etc. have begun to be seen. We just opened a gambling parlor, first in the state.

Why do I speak of this, what has it to do with torture? I'm not sure. One SS favorite torture was to lay a naked man on a leaf table, the kind with slides and open inside. They'd lay him on there with his balls hanging inbetween, and threaten to slam it shut if he didn't talk. I don't know about training to resist such, but I'd give 'em whatever they wanted to hear in those circumstances.

[George.]

Another interesting point is that in Brazil, those who make excuses for police brutality are mostly middle class or rich. Why? Because police brutality is overwhelmingly directed towards the poor, who are unlikely to hire a lawyer and file suit. Thus, it is a no-risk proposition for the middle class. None of them, or their children, or their friends and relatives, are likely to be subjected to it.

In America, one sees people defending torture of "terrorists." Of course, they visualize those terrorists as people of Arab descent, probably foreign nationals. Again, no risk to themselves from such a policy. The same people do not favor torture to stop murders or drunk driving, which kill far more Americans than terrorism does. Why? Because they could picture their own kids getting picked up "by mistake," and having a nightstick shoved up their anus before it is all cleared up.

A cowardly attitude, here and there...

[Alan D. Hyde]

Such are the inevitable rationalizations and excuses which are props to oppressive societies.

To drift in that direction is a natural tendency--- a result of self-interest and self-involvement.

The founders of the United States knew this well, and aimed to guard against it. But, despite the ingenuity of our written Constitution, no nation can long be much better than are the people who together comprise it.

Many average Americans once cared more for honor than for money, and were consequently thought to be naive, or innocents, by many Europeans.

I grew up among the World War I and World War II generations of Americans, and admired their honesty and resourcefulness. The current generation of young people could learn much from them--- I wish that I myself had learned more, and sooner... :(

Alan

[LeeG]

George:"Another interesting point is that in Brazil, those who make excuses for police brutality are mostly middle class or rich. Why? Because police brutality is overwhelmingly directed towards the poor, who are unlikely to hire a lawyer and file suit. Thus, it is a no-risk proposition for the middle class. None of them, or their children, or their friends and relatives, are likely to be subjected to it."

Jack:"For the first time, in the last year gangbangers, young black men, with the wannabe signatures of du rags etc. have begun to be seen. We just opened a gambling parlor, first in the state.

Why do I speak of this, what has it to do with torture? I'm not sure."

Lee:I think it has to do with fear

[Ian McColgin]

The US does not have a history of police departments systematically using torture, though many acquired a reputation for savage interrogation which a few, like LAPD, maintain to this day, but things got a great deal better incidental to our civil rights movement starting in the 50's, blooming in the 60's and uniting in the 70's with the anti-war movement.

The civil rights movement exposed more and more of the previously protected middle class to police excesses, As the middle class became victems, they helped change the political culture that had tolorated the traditional rubber hose.

One good result is that police officers found that with better training and better tactics, the wasteful inefficiency of torture was better exposed.

I was very lucky to come up when much of this was already in place, at least where I was, mostly. We got savaged by Rizzo's goons and people I worked with had no qualms about causing a police riot in Grand Central Station with the explicit aim of causing the police to assault middle class commuters. Worked too. Had the salutory effect of getting more people to see that not everyone getting hit was a lowlifecommiefag.

But most civil rights and peace demonstrations I helped organize came after the police departments were concerned with managing us to have a peaceful expression rather than with thwarting us.

We negotiated, especially if there was to be an arrest strategy, and made contingency plans. We always had at least some very brave and self-discipled affinity groups prepared to put themselves in the way of trouble to either keep crazies on our side from going over the top or to protect demonstrators from police excess if it got started.

This process is always uneven but it's the process that brings the progressive part of the middle class into closer contact with the police and helps the culture shift away from human rights abuse.

It is never complete or perfect and there is some ground for fearing that in the US we are loosing moral standing.

[George.]

One may also point out that, during the Inquisition, countless people confessed to having become instruments of the Devil, and during witch trials, countless people confessed to being witches.

Which means that either devils and witches abound among us, or that torture is ineffective as an investigative tool. Or perhaps it means both. :(

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Some years ago, a Brazilian TV soap opera, translated, took the Philippines by storm. One reason might be that George's description of the Brazilian police applies precisely to the Philippines police.

[paladin]

now, now, Andrew...one must'nt speak harshly of the philippine Constabulary......

[Osborne Russel]

Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
The US does not have a history of police departments systematically using tortureDepends on which police. It was the abuses of big city police departments that led to many of the most important Supreme Court cases which declared common police practices to be unconstitutional.

In small towns the police didn't have the power to get away with torture and so did not employ it. Perhaps the more intelligent among them were able to see it as a matter of moral principle. All but the very worst were able to see the limit to what they could get away with.

The south was a special case of course.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Chuck, talking of the Phlippine Constabulary, I wonder if you have come across "Ghosts of Manila", a novel by James Hamilton-Patterson?

Francisco Sionil Jose recommended it to me, which is a pretty good recommendation and I find he is also a mate of JG Ballard which is another. I thought it was about right.
Guardian article on Hamilton-Patterson (http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1230741,00.html)

Wikipedia article on Frankie Sionil Jose, weirdly in Tagalog since he is an Ilocano writing in English! (http://ilo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Sionil_Jos%C3%A9)

[paladin]

Can't say I have heard of the gent, Andrew...
I used the P.C. Airstrips at San Fernando, Canlubang sugar plantation and near the peter paul coconut desicating plant...If I left a carton of Salems on the front seat of the airplane I knew it would be all there when I came back....otherwise parts walked away..radios disappeared etc....when in Rome......

[George.]

An alleged thieve's...

[George.]

And here is an example of how torture works in the war on terror:

Qaeda-Iraq Link U.S. Cited Is Tied to Coercion Claim (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/09/politics/09intel.html)


WASHINGTON, Dec. 8 - The Bush administration based a crucial prewar assertion about ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda on detailed statements made by a prisoner while in Egyptian custody who later said he had fabricated them to escape harsh treatment, according to current and former government officials.

The officials said the captive, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, provided his most specific and elaborate accounts about ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda only after he was secretly handed over to Egypt by the United States in January 2002, in a process known as rendition.

The new disclosure provides the first public evidence that bad intelligence on Iraq may have resulted partly from the administration's heavy reliance on third countries to carry out interrogations of Qaeda members and others detained as part of American counterterrorism efforts. The Bush administration used Mr. Libi's accounts as the basis for its prewar claims, now discredited, that ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda included training in explosives and chemical weapons.
...
Keep torturing detainees. Who knows what other wonderful quagmires you might enter by mistake.

[ishmael]

Lee:I think it has to do with fear

Actually it has to do with unwelcome change. Bangor was once a wild town, lumber boom and all. But it always held onto its white, middleclass dignity too. Those two at war. But black youth gangbang ****e is new. And I must say, unwelcome. If you can construe it as positive, I'll listen. I want it to stay in Boston.

[imported_GregW]

One can see just how successful torture is by reading some of Solzhenitsyn's and other former inmates stories of life in Joe Stalin's Gulag.
By all accounts it would appear that most people will say just about anything and confess to just about anything to get the torture to stop. In Soviet times the “reward” for confessing to some drummed up crime was 25 yrs of hard labour. Imagine trading being tortured for the opportunity to live 25 years in a labour camp, gives you some idea how desperate people get in the face of torture.