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View Full Version : who needs the house of saud anyways? who needs anything from the mideast anyways?



Paul Pless
10-18-2018, 12:58 PM
We now procur less than 4% of our oil from Saudi Arabia and almost none from elsewhere in the Middle East.

Our presence there, economically, politically, and militarily is to stabilize the politics and lower the price of oil on the world market. We make oil cheap for everybody else. Everybody else that we compete with economically: China, Europe, Japan, South Korea. Dumbest **** ever.

The smartest thing we could do would be to abandon the Mideast. Relieve ourselves of the threats of jihadist, and let someone else - Russia and China - deal with that bull****.

It would be cheaper and less problematic to annex Canada.

George Jung
10-18-2018, 01:03 PM
And buy our solar panels from... China! Ooops!

Jim Bow
10-18-2018, 01:14 PM
But, isn't Trump Inc. funded by Saudi Arabia?

paulf
10-18-2018, 01:22 PM
We now procur less than 4% of our oil from Saudi Arabia and almost none from elsewhere in the Middle East.

Our presence there, economically, politically, and militarily is to stabilize the politics and lower the price of oil on the world market. We make oil cheap for everybody else. Everybody else that we compete with economically: China, Europe, Japan, South Korea. Dumbest **** ever.

The smartest thing we could do would be to abandon the Mideast. Relieve ourselves of the threats of jihadist, and let someone else - Russia and China - deal with that bull****.

It would be cheaper and less problematic to annex Canada.

Unless your a weapons dealer like Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, General Dynamics, etc, etc.

Chris Smith porter maine
10-18-2018, 01:23 PM
I agree time to cut Israel loose as well.

Paul Pless
10-18-2018, 01:24 PM
I agree time to cut Israel loose as well.don't you know it!

paulf
10-18-2018, 01:24 PM
I agree time to cut Israel loose as well.

I fully agree, but the MIC won't like it....

Figment
10-18-2018, 01:29 PM
I can think of one guy who needs them... a developer of ultra-high-end real estate, maybe.

Paul Pless
10-18-2018, 01:29 PM
wonder what percentage of our military budget is spent on the mideast?

S.V. Airlie
10-18-2018, 01:29 PM
If you go by Trump's mantra, we're self sufficient and making America great again.

Figment
10-18-2018, 01:30 PM
that dog won't hunt, man. "we fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here"

Paul Pless
10-18-2018, 01:30 PM
a developer of ultra-high-end real estate, maybe.same guy who likes gaudi assed gold curtains and such?

RHAKCT
10-18-2018, 01:30 PM
I fully agree, but the MIC won't like it....

how about all the people who work for those MIC companies? throw them out of work?

Paul Pless
10-18-2018, 01:31 PM
that dog won't hunt, man. "we fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here"if we weren't over there we wouldn't have to fight them anywhere

not only that, whoever moved in our place would have to fight them

schadenfreude anyone?

Paul Pless
10-18-2018, 01:34 PM
how about all the people who work for those MIC companies? throw them out of work?which one do you work for? ;)

in my ideal world we'd offset the loss of military spending by investing in america: social services, health care, education; and for the high tech military manufacturing types things like environmental clean up, clean energies, efficient transportation and housing, space exploration. . .

Figment
10-18-2018, 01:41 PM
only moderately off-topic... how many people does Sikorsky actually employ these days?
Google says 8000 but that was 2016 and there were some layoffs since then I think?

Are they still the anchor of the valley?

Canoez
10-18-2018, 01:43 PM
that dog won't hunt, man. "we fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here"

Well, heck. We're probably better armed over here. Think about what a dream that would be for Trump Supporters - "We're at war here in the US with folks that look like <Insert ethnic group here> We get to shoot any of them on sight!"

Figment
10-18-2018, 01:47 PM
same guy who likes gaudi assed gold curtains and such?

Gaudi is awesome.
https://static.interestingengineering.com/images/AUGUST/sizes/gaudi_works_123_resize_md.jpg

Tiny's curtains are GAUDY.

Flying Orca
10-18-2018, 01:57 PM
It would be cheaper and less problematic to annex Canada.

Even that didn't work so well last time... and isn't likely to work well if tried again.

Paul Pless
10-18-2018, 02:01 PM
Even that didn't work so well last time... and isn't likely to work well if tried again.Fact is, it's cheaper and easier just to have y'all screw up the environment, step all over indigenous peoples, extract minerals and export them without adding any additional manufactured value, etc etc than it would be for us to invade.

Not sure you and your ice breaker fleet is gonna be up to fending off Russia in the arctic as global warming opens up those regions to exploitation; we'll back you up though. . .

Rum_Pirate
10-18-2018, 02:04 PM
We now procur less than 4% of our oil from Saudi Arabia and almost none from elsewhere in the Middle East.
Thats only about 288,000,000 barrels a year

and at ($68.93/barrel) is only $19,851,840,000.00 a year.

Small change.

John of Phoenix
10-18-2018, 02:10 PM
"Oil is too precious to burn." - Shah Reza Pahalvi

Chris Smith porter maine
10-18-2018, 02:15 PM
Thats only about 288,000,000 barrels a year

and at ($68.93/barrel) is only $19,851,840,000.00 a year.

Small change.

I can think of other places I would prefer to send the money.

BrianW
10-18-2018, 02:46 PM
We now procur less than 4% of our oil from Saudi Arabia and almost none from elsewhere in the Middle East.

Our presence there, economically, politically, and militarily is to stabilize the politics and lower the price of oil on the world market. We make oil cheap for everybody else. Everybody else that we compete with economically: China, Europe, Japan, South Korea. Dumbest **** ever.

The smartest thing we could do would be to abandon the Mideast. Relieve ourselves of the threats of jihadist, and let someone else - Russia and China - deal with that bull****.

It would be cheaper and less problematic to annex Canada.

Yeah man! Believe I've said the same thing. :)

Let the Canadian government finish building their nasty pile line through BC first, because it would never happen if the US takes over.

;)

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-18-2018, 02:52 PM
Gaudi is awesome.
https://static.interestingengineering.com/images/AUGUST/sizes/gaudi_works_123_resize_md.jpg

Tiny's curtains are GAUDY.

Epic Gaudi tale..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45906155


Off to one side, what's with the USA and Iran?

Flying Orca
10-18-2018, 02:55 PM
Fact is, it's cheaper and easier just to have y'all screw up the environment, step all over indigenous peoples, extract minerals and export them without adding any additional manufactured value, etc etc than it would be for us to invade.

Sad but (currently) true. There are those of us who would like to change this, but Albert is politically strategic.


Not sure you and your ice breaker fleet is gonna be up to fending off Russia in the arctic as global warming opens up those regions to exploitation; we'll back you up though. . .

Overseas invasion, from Russia or anywhere else except possibly China, is the least of our worries; the supply line problem is pretty much insurmountable short of WWII-scale total mobilization, and even then Russia would have capacity problems.

TomF
10-18-2018, 02:57 PM
I was gonna say - if you go with us rather than the Saudi lads, you'll have to manage the Keystone thing.

Figment
10-18-2018, 02:57 PM
The difference between Barcelona and NYC.

In NYC if a continuously-operating-for-a-century building site were told to pay for back permits, the response would have been something along the lines of "or what?"

Figment
10-18-2018, 03:01 PM
Sad but (currently) true. There are those of us who would like to change this, but Albert is politically strategic.



Overseas invasion, from Russia or anywhere else except possibly China, is the least of our worries; the supply line problem is pretty much insurmountable short of WWII-scale total mobilization, and even then Russia would have capacity problems.

Silly Orca. So adorably 20th century! :D
The 21st century invasion: china incrementally buys up enough Canadian assets that they don't need to mobilize anything.

Gib Etheridge
10-18-2018, 03:02 PM
I've been saying that for most of my adult life Paul, and I'm still saying it. I'm with you 100%, but how long will it be before enough people who matter see things as they really are?

Paul Pless
10-18-2018, 03:05 PM
Silly Orca. So adorably 20th century! :D
The 21st century invasion: china incrementally buys up enough Canadian assets that they don't need to mobilize anything.Just like they've done with those other places that just sell off what they dig up without adding value: Africa and Australia

LeeG
10-18-2018, 03:12 PM
how about all the people who work for those MIC companies? throw them out of work?

maybe they could apply their skill to something other than the technology of killing? Something that contributes to economic and environmental security. If gov’t subsidies and procurement supports the arms industry it surely could do the same with others.

Canoez
10-18-2018, 03:14 PM
maybe they could apply their skill to something other than the technology of killing? Something that contributes to economic and environmental security. If gov’t subsidies and procurement supports the arms industry it surely could do the same with others.

*DING! DING! DING!* We have a winner.

skuthorp
10-18-2018, 03:19 PM
Epic Gaudi tale..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45906155


Off to one side, what's with the USA and Iran?

Quick! Look over here! Look over here!
The MIC, and the US political establishment have always needed an 'enemy', even if they had to invent one, as a distraction.

LeeG
10-18-2018, 03:21 PM
We now procur less than 4% of our oil from Saudi Arabia and almost none from elsewhere in the Middle East.

Our presence there, economically, politically, and militarily is to stabilize the politics and lower the price of oil on the world market. We make oil cheap for everybody else. Everybody else that we compete with economically: China, Europe, Japan, South Korea. Dumbest **** ever.

The smartest thing we could do would be to abandon the Mideast. Relieve ourselves of the threats of jihadist, and let someone else - Russia and China - deal with that bull****.

It would be cheaper and less problematic to annex Canada.

Those reasons for being their seem to be a story than a reality. I don’t see how we provided stability to Iraq and Iran. There are internal factors destabilizimg the Middle East that are totally outside our control.

Paul Pless
10-18-2018, 03:27 PM
Just so Lee, the only ‘stability ‘ we ever cared for was that of cheap and stable oil prices. We pursued this through leaning on or propping up a strong man in almost every scenario.

RHAKCT
10-18-2018, 03:35 PM
only moderately off-topic... how many people does Sikorsky actually employ these days?
Google says 8000 but that was 2016 and there were some layoffs since then I think?

Are they still the anchor of the valley?

Sikorsky still employs 7500~8000 in Stratford - about 14,000 in all locations and don't forget the outside suppliers who furnish parts etc -
They are still the big dog in the valley so to speak.

RHAKCT
10-18-2018, 03:39 PM
*DING! DING! DING!* We have a winner.
Can you give me one example of where this pipedream has actually worked at this scale - think hundreds of thousands good paying jobs eliminated and the echo effect on all the surrounding neighborhoods where all these people live?

Paul Pless
10-18-2018, 03:46 PM
Can you give me one example of where this pipedream has actually worked at this scale - think hundreds of thousands good paying jobs eliminated and the echo effect on all the surrounding neighborhoods where all these people live?post wwii, during the war military spending was more than forty percent of GDP; that dropped to less than seven percent before 1950

the key to doing this successfully wrt to employment, the economy, and the overall good of society (both here and abroad) is to transition over a two to three year period, to take some portion of the money that was being spent over there and spend it over here, and to reduce taxes or pay off the government debt with the remainder of the savings. . .

Canoez
10-18-2018, 03:48 PM
Can you give me one example of where this pipedream has actually worked at this scale - think hundreds of thousands good paying jobs eliminated and the echo effect on all the surrounding neighborhoods where all these people live?

In the US. Just after WWII. We made the shift from military production back to consumer production.

LeeG
10-18-2018, 03:48 PM
Can you give me one example of where this pipedream has actually worked at this scale - think hundreds of thousands good paying jobs eliminated and the echo effect on all the surrounding neighborhoods where all these people live?

Instead of a binary choice between a thriving industry subsidized by the gov’t and YOU’RE FIRED consider the gov’t subsidizes another industry over a decade so that 5% of the MIC workforce is shifted to another industry, say developing microgrid systems that make the power grid more resilient, rebuilding Puerto Rico, etc. Just a shift in priorities not a wholescale elimination of an industry. Prioritizing expenses happens in McDonnel Douglas, it happens for the USA.

Figment
10-18-2018, 03:49 PM
Your point is valid, of course, but does that mean we should continue to pour a large portion of our resources into military hardware and let other needs go wanting?

Also, because we're capitalist, we must believe that if the government got out of the foreign wars business and into the national infrastructure business companies like sikorsky and EB and Pratt would chase that money and get into the infrastructure business as well.

AndyG
10-18-2018, 03:58 PM
You need to think further back.

I blame First Lord of the Admiralty, a certain 'Winston Churchill' whom you may have heard of, who needed to secure oil fuel supplies for the Queen Elizabeth class fast battleships. That's the way we went reliant on ME oil.

It's all been downhill from there.

Andy

woodpile
10-18-2018, 04:11 PM
Of course it has nothing to do with the Saudi's being a middle east buffer for us with Iran and providing us with terrorist intel, and if we shut off arms sales to them they will just form better alliances with China or Russia and buy arms there, they have been an ally for a long time and yea, they screwed up, there are no simple answers.

Chris Smith porter maine
10-18-2018, 04:13 PM
Can you give me one example of where this pipedream has actually worked at this scale - think hundreds of thousands good paying jobs eliminated and the echo effect on all the surrounding neighborhoods where all these people live?

Ah so Iraq, Afghanistan, and bombing the crap out of Yemen is a US jobs program, dumbest sh*t ever.

Chris Smith porter maine
10-18-2018, 04:16 PM
Of course it has nothing to do with the Saudi's being a middle east buffer for us with Iran and providing us with terrorist intel, and if we shut off arms sales to them they will just form better alliances with China or Russia and buy arms there, they have been an ally for a long time and yea, they screwed up, there are no simple answers.

15 of 19 were Saudis, with friends like that you don't need enemies

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijackers_in_the_September_11_attacks

Flying Orca
10-18-2018, 04:22 PM
Of course it has nothing to do with the Saudi's ... providing us with terrorist intel

I think you mean "providing us with terrorists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijackers_in_the_September_11_attacks)". (ETA: great minds...)

Harry Miller
10-18-2018, 04:29 PM
It would be cheaper and less problematic to annex Canada.

We’re all so baked we probably wouldn’t notice.

StevenBauer
10-18-2018, 04:31 PM
Seems like they build some pretty nice solar panels with all their high tech methods.




Thats only about 288,000,000 barrels a year

and at ($68.93/barrel) is only $19,851,840,000.00 a year.

Small change.

Is rummy’s math correct here? If so the other 96% of the oil is worth $496,296,000,000?

Paul Pless
10-18-2018, 04:45 PM
Is rummy’s math correct here? If so the other 96% of the oil is worth $496,296,000,000?according to the dept of energy we used 7.28 billion barrels of oil in 2017

or approximately $394 billion the (the weighted average price of oil per barrel in 2017 was $54)

or about two percent of our economy - however that is excluding the money we spend on the military and diplomacy to make sure that oil continues to flow

Hugh Conway
10-18-2018, 04:53 PM
maybe they could apply their skill to something other than the technology of killing? Something that contributes to economic and environmental security. If gov’t subsidies and procurement supports the arms industry it surely could do the same with others.

most of what "they" do is useless middle management, it's why the projects are always over budget and under target. It's the sub or sub-sub contractors who do the work. The MIC just does the palm greasing.

sharpiefan
10-18-2018, 04:56 PM
Quick! Look over here! Look over here!
The MIC, and the US political establishment have always needed an 'enemy', even if they had to invent one, as a distraction.

FYI---
If There Were No Benny Cemoli
Short story by Philip K. Dick

LeeG
10-18-2018, 05:20 PM
Just so Lee, the only ‘stability ‘ we ever cared for was that of cheap and stable oil prices. We pursued this through leaning on or propping up a strong man in almost every scenario.

yeah but we’re way past the time when the seven sisters ran the oil world with ever expanding discoveries.
I don’t see how US military presence does squat for oil price stability when that is a function of supply and demand where everyone wants that oil to flow. Propping up a prefered gov’t is one thing. The oil market is a different thing. People like to believe all that military power is doing something when it’s simply moving allocation from the general welfare.

LeeG
10-18-2018, 05:29 PM
most of what "they" do is useless middle management, it's why the projects are always over budget and under target. It's the sub or sub-sub contractors who do the work. The MIC just does the palm greasing.

pretty impressive grease works. Still trying to figure out the costs of the joint tactical radio system program. It’s like the F35 of infantry radio systems

S.V. Airlie
10-18-2018, 05:46 PM
Of course it has nothing to do with the Saudi's being a middle east buffer for us with Iran and providing us with terrorist intel, and if we shut off arms sales to them they will just form better alliances with China or Russia and buy arms there, they have been an ally for a long time and yea, they screwed up, there are no simple answers.Yup, Saudi Arabia will be your friend one minute and your enemy the next. If you have something to offer them, miraculously, they're your friends.

No better than BiBi who has done squat for this country of ours since 1948.

Sky Blue
10-18-2018, 05:52 PM
The West has been making war in the region for more than 1000 years. The issue isn't decisional. It's civilizational. We won't be disengaging anytime soon.

BrianW
10-18-2018, 05:55 PM
Sikorsky still employs 7500~8000 in Stratford - about 14,000 in all locations and don't forget the outside suppliers who furnish parts etc -
They are still the big dog in the valley so to speak.

They had a big layoff in Florida. Sikorsky was bought by Lockheed-Martin, so maybe jobs no longer listed under Sikorsky are now under Lockheed?

RHAKCT
10-18-2018, 06:04 PM
They had a big layoff in Florida. Sikorsky was bought by Lockheed-Martin, so maybe jobs no longer listed under Sikorsky are now under Lockheed?
the Sikorsky info is still pretty accurate, still have a few contacts there - also the -53k work is sourced to Stratford now so there has been some buildup in prep of that.
These are $30 - $40 and hour jobs and up for the hourly workforce, hard to believe a retraining program will be able to replace these jobs.

gypsie
10-18-2018, 07:01 PM
wonder what percentage of our military budget is spent on the mideast?

Is that Eisenhower i hear echo's of?
That's the problem with a military industrial complex, what do you do if you stop needing arms? How many jobs (portion of the economy) are dependent on the USA being in places like the middle east and pretty much everywhere else - and depending on places like Saudi Arabia buying arms so they can invade places like Yemen who will then need someone to buy arms from. As you point out, oil is small beer now - so whats it all about? Money. (Thanks Mr. McNamara!)

Isn't the USA in significant debt to the Saudi's?
That'll improve; once Trump starts to lower expenditure, followed by a few hundred years more of low spending and high taxing, you'll truly be free to decide where you want to be.
One of those two statements is a fantasy.



Saudi Arabia's holdings.. are a mystery.
...Saudi Arabia has benefited from an unspoken hands-off policy. Americans only got a whiff of how much the Saudis owned in U.S. assets when its government said it would sell over $700 billion worth if Barack Obama revealed some 28 pages of a Sept. 11 2001 report revealing alleged Saudi support of the Boston Logan Airport hijackers. (http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/20/politics/obama-saudi-arabia-tensions/index.html)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2016/04/22/u-s-hostage-to-china-and-saudi-arabia-but-only-one-seems-to-matter/#75ebcd292af0

PeterSibley
10-18-2018, 07:09 PM
how about all the people who work for those MIC companies? throw them out of work?

Give them bridge building contracts.

LeeG
10-18-2018, 07:25 PM
Of course it has nothing to do with the Saudi's being a middle east buffer for us with Iran and providing us with terrorist intel, and if we shut off arms sales to them they will just form better alliances with China or Russia and buy arms there, they have been an ally for a long time and yea, they screwed up, there are no simple answers.

Why in the heck does the US require a “buffer” with Iran, least of all an antagonist of Iran? What terrorist intel? You mean about Salafi jihadists that elements of Wahhabi community support? Gee that worked great on 9/11. Again policy isn’t a set of binary choices, deemphasizing arms sales doesn’t mean canceling sales.

john welsford
10-18-2018, 07:52 PM
Gaudi is awesome.
https://static.interestingengineering.com/images/AUGUST/sizes/gaudi_works_123_resize_md.jpg

Tiny's curtains are GAUDY.

I just had a mental picture of a "Gaudi'ed missile" pop into my head, I think I need to go and do something else for a while.

John Welsford

RHAKCT
10-18-2018, 08:55 PM
Give them bridge building contracts.

And pay people who have no idea how to build a bridge the same money they now earn? will your country volunteer to make up the difference in their salary?

Paul Pless
10-18-2018, 09:46 PM
And pay people who have no idea how to build a bridge the same money they now earn? will your country volunteer to make up the difference in their salary?
You’re sole defense of our Mideast strategy and the relationships we have there with quite unsavory regimes is based almost completely on the fact that doing so provides a few high paying jobs and your afraid we won’t or can’t make our economy transition away from a war time footing?