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View Full Version : new open 60 foiler, when do bulb keels become unnecessary



Paul Pless
10-16-2018, 04:32 PM
Couldn't the lead keel be replaced with a movable ballast at or even above deck level?

Thank you to John Meachen for pointing this out to me.

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Paul Pless
10-16-2018, 04:39 PM
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John Meachen
10-16-2018, 04:55 PM
You just have to wonder what might happen if they were allowed rudder foils.Speaking of which the rudders themselves are rather interesting.

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Some proper engineering went into those.

Peerie Maa
10-16-2018, 04:57 PM
Couldn't the lead keel be replaced with a movable ballast at or even above deck level?



The whole idea of ballast is to pull the CoG down as low as possible. Other wise it is just displacement to be dragged around. Putting it above deck does not pull the CoG down whilst still needing to be dragged around.
I remember from wayy back that there was a (I think single handed) ocean racer with pumpable water ballast shifted to windward on each board.

John Meachen
10-16-2018, 05:01 PM
The whole idea of ballast is to pull the CoG down as low as possible. Other wise it is just displacement to be dragged around. Putting it above deck does not pull the CoG down whilst still needing to be dragged around.
I remember from wayy back that there was a (I think single handed) ocean racer with pumpable water ballast shifted to windward on each board.

The Open 60's like Charal have moveable water ballast as well as a canting bulb keel.This particular boat has a 60 foot hull with the strength to cope with all of his and still weighs around two tons.By no means a boat for everyman,but it shows what can be done.

Peerie Maa
10-16-2018, 05:20 PM
The Open 60's like Charal have moveable water ballast as well as a canting bulb keel.This particular boat has a 60 foot hull with the strength to cope with all of his and still weighs around two tons.By no means a boat for everyman, but it shows what can be done.

If you throw enough money at the engineering and materials.
"How to make a small fortune at yachting?"

I wonder whether they will be revered in the future as the classic big J's are revered now? They ought to be.

Sky Blue
10-16-2018, 05:39 PM
Bulb keels never were "necessary."

John Meachen
10-16-2018, 05:49 PM
Bulb keels never were "necessary."

I suppose you could make a case for that.

https://theeclecticdilettante.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/logcanoe1.jpg

Sky Blue
10-16-2018, 05:53 PM
I suppose you could make a case for that.

https://theeclecticdilettante.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/logcanoe1.jpg

Is that supposed to be some form of a rebuttal? You will need to do better, I think.

Chris249
10-16-2018, 06:42 PM
Movable ballast around deck level is a pretty ancient idea, put into practise in Australia and/or NZ about 1860 and by Herreshoff a few years later. The problem was that once you lost control of the ballast trolley it could run off the rails (literally) and in one case allegedly straight out of the side of the boat. The other thing is that it's problematic in terms of assisting with self righting - if you get caught aback the ballast to windward is going to make it impossible to recover.

I've only sailed an old Open 60 and then only very briefly. They are interesting boats but one thing that's interesting is how little they have actually passed on to mainstream yachting in terms of basic design. There's a current tendency to create very beamy cruiser-racers but other Open 60 features like water ballast, canting keels, foils, outriggers etc are only seen in a tiny percentage of racing boats. This tendency to have a big difference between the bleeding edge and the mainstream isn't good for the sport IMHO.

Charal is certainly impressive, but IMHO what's more impressive is what you can now get from a production racer/cruiser with no double rudders, no canting keel, no foils, and none of that other stuff that makes sailing vastly more expensive and complicated;


https://youtu.be/X3nThVJc-1M?t=181

johnw
10-17-2018, 12:20 AM
Couldn't the lead keel be replaced with a movable ballast at or even above deck level?

Thank you to John Meachen for pointing this out to me.

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The canting keel is movable ballast, and in some cases can be pretty high.

https://me.usharbors.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/image_gallery/image-gallery/2-img_4304_0.jpg

https://me.usharbors.com/image-gallery/exclusive-first-tests-world-s-fastest-sailboat

gypsie
10-17-2018, 12:37 AM
Isn't the bulb low down about leverage? The lower the more leverage against the sails......? In a fixed keel situation.

I couldn't see why a bulb protruding directly out of the windward topsides wouldn't work better than a canting bulb. Air resistance is far less than water. Isn't the windward hull of a foiling cat really just above water ballast?
Logistically it might be harder. Tacking; you'd have to track it inboard and out the other side, or perhaps track inboard, pivot 180 degrees and track outboard.

That last pic above, is the keel assisting with the foiling action?

epoxyboy
10-17-2018, 12:46 AM
Bulb keels never were "necessary."
Care to enlighten us how one of these boats might achieve the same sort of performance envelope, and remain within the rules, sans bulb keel?
No, didn't think so.

Pete

johnw
10-17-2018, 01:09 AM
That last pic above, is the keel assisting with the foiling action?
No. And I'd take Vlad Murnikov' statements about the boat's speed with a grain of salt. He designed the MX Ray, which in most respects was a very high performance dinghy. It had an asymmetric spinnaker, racy looks, great difficulty in sailing, pretty much everything a boat like that needs except high performance. It rates slightly faster than a Laser, considerably slower than a 10 square meter canoe. Yes, I know the canoe is longer, but if you can make the boat that much faster by adding a couple feet of length, what' the point of the spinnaker?

Chris249
10-17-2018, 01:22 AM
Isn't the bulb low down about leverage? The lower the more leverage against the sails......? In a fixed keel situation.

I couldn't see why a bulb protruding directly out of the windward topsides wouldn't work better than a canting bulb. Air resistance is far less than water. Isn't the windward hull of a foiling cat really just above water ballast?
Logistically it might be harder. Tacking; you'd have to track it inboard and out the other side, or perhaps track inboard, pivot 180 degrees and track outboard.

That last pic above, is the keel assisting with the foiling action?

In terms of moving the C of G, it's better to move the weight to windward than down. There have been three boats with bulb keels that stick into the air. One was the Murnikov design that John mentioned, which seems to have never raced or shown interesting speed; typical of Vlad's designs. Another (a Libera Class A "lake boat" from Italy) was banned, the other (a Reichel Pugh 40 in Sydney) was abandoned after it capsized twice in inshore racing. I'm not sure who Ralph had on board the latter when it went in, but the normal crew on his previous canter included two Olympic team members, including won who had (I think) one the 18 Foot Skiff "worlds", finished second in the Tornado cat worlds and was Australia's top pro windsurfer racer in the early '80s, so it probably wasn't short of skilled boathandlers.

There is always the problem that a keel canted far enough to be out of the water will increase the capsizing moment when it all goes wrong, whereas a "conventional" canting keel will cause a righting moment over a much wider range of heel.

RFNK
10-17-2018, 04:41 AM
To the untrained eye (i.e., mine), they just look like monohulls trying to be multihulls.

Rick

AndyG
10-17-2018, 05:43 AM
I remember from wayy back that there was a (I think single handed) ocean racer with pumpable water ballast shifted to windward on each board.

Wasn't there a Thames barge race where one competitor had a mini digger in the hold, driving to the windward side when necessary? #cheating

Andy

mmd
10-17-2018, 07:18 AM
I, too, would like to read Ol' Blooie's explanation of his assertion that "bulb keels never were 'necessary.'"

But I suspect that if he deigns to offer any response at all, it will be his usual assertion that we should explain, not he.

Dan McCosh
10-17-2018, 07:21 AM
The ballasted keel is a solution to what is referred to as "stable position #2" in multihulls.

Hwyl
10-17-2018, 07:35 AM
I've only sailed an old Open 60 and then only very briefly. They are interesting boats but one thing that's interesting is how little they have actually passed on to mainstream yachting in terms of basic design. There's a current tendency to create very beamy cruiser-racers but other Open 60 features like water ballast, canting keels, foils, outriggers etc are only seen in a tiny percentage of racing boats. This tendency to have a big difference between the bleeding edge and the mainstream isn't good for the sport IMHO.

]

Maybe not originated in Open 60's but refined, are smart autopilos and self contained furling jibs and code sails.

I've only sailed Ocean Planet, which was never typical and is generations old. Things I liked were: Solar panels attached to the deck and transom, an alternator that could be switched online that used the full power of the engine. When it was switched in there was not enough power left to turn the prop and a seat that I think originated in race cars, that had a lockable universal joint, so it was a nav desk chair and a sleeping space.

skaraborgcraft
10-17-2018, 10:33 AM
The bulb keel on those will always be needed so the things can right from complete inversion. There is plenty of vids on utube as every boat in the Vendee has to go through the process......righting would not happen without the keel, as has been proven on a few occassions when they have fallen/broken off.

John Meachen
10-17-2018, 03:00 PM
I suspect there will be a fund of knowledge from these boats that can be transferred to the boats for the next America's cup.It was interesting to read the RYA magazine earlier this year and learn that they now offer training courses that lead to a qualification in sailing foilers.Perhaps the first step to a life of sailing these beasts.

Hwyl
10-17-2018, 03:17 PM
Forumite SHClark had the first canting keel boat in the US, and his son will sell you a foiling cat for the price of a 420 with a dolley/trolley.

Scroll through the first 1:30


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=-Rnq6xn8TKM


Edited to add: It was SHC's father and LFH thought of it in 1945 and possibly Dixon Kemp before that.


The Sailing Machine
Even on the hard, nearly three decades after it first splashed into Rhode Island's Narragansett Bay, the Red Herring still turns heads. The narrow double-ender looks like it could glide through the water with the slightest push. The spindly strut that sticks out of the bottom and terminates in a torpedo-shaped bulb invites a closer look, which reveals that while it's attached to the hull above, it's not quite fixed. It generates more than a few questions from passersby.
"You know what you could do for us?" a yard foreman asks Steve Clark, the boat's owner, one day in July. "Print out an 8-by-5-inch card that explains everything about the boat so we can just hand it to people when they ask."
Clark laughs. He has a better idea. What if the boat did that itself? How about a button that the curious could push and be rewarded with a quick oral history of this revolutionary design?
"Hello, I am the Red Herring, the first keelboat to separate the traditional duties of the keel, lift and righting moment, allowing each to be created more efficiently. Nearly 30 years after I was built, I'm still an oddity, occasionally an outlaw…"
For years, Clark's father Van Alan Clark, an economist by trade, sailed a Block Island 40. People often asked him when he was going to buy a new boat. His response, in effect, was: "When you find one, let me know."
Van Alan Clark didn't see much value in swapping his traditional keelboat for one that was incrementally faster. Instead, he dreamed of building something truly different.
In the 1940s, L. Francis Herreshoff published a plan for an innovative yacht in The Common Sense of Yacht Design. In chapter 18, "The Sailing Machine," he described a slender double-ender of 45 feet with a manually operated swing keel to generate additional righting moment. As a result the boat was light, around 7,500 lbs., and fast, despite carrying a rather modest sail plan. Whether or not Herreshoff came up with the canting keel idea himself is a subject of debate. Some say the idea may go back to turn of the century yacht designer Dixon Kemp.
But Herreshoff's design was the first to be built. Jim Young, a New Zealand yacht designer, built a version of it in the 1950s. Fiery Cross was the world's first canting-keel boat. It quickly ran into two roadblocks: the rating officials had no desire to handicap it, and, when the keel was canted and the boat heeled, there was little to prevent leeway.
In the late 1970s, Van Alan Clark contacted Dave Hubbard, an engineer with whom the elder Clark had worked on C Class catamarans. He had an idea how to build a nimble cruising boat that could be easily handled by two people.
Since Van Alan Clark didn't plan to race his boat, rating it wasn't a problem. He and Hubbard solved the leeway issue with centerboards. Steve Clark likens the original underbody of Red Herring to a "picket fence," with two pivoting centerboards, the keel strut, and a boxy rudder. It was 54 feet long and powered by a cat ketch rig, with two fully battened mains mounted on rotating masts.
In other respects the boat was conservative. Eric Goetz built it out of solid wood and the sail plan was quite small. "Off and on it would display impressive pieces of performance," says Steve Clark. "But I regarded her as pretty disappointing."

But, he adds, as a "proof of concept," it was a success. People said it wouldn't go to windward. It did. And on a reach in breeze it was blazing fast.
Van Alan Clark died in 1984 before he had a chance to really refine the boat. Among the few people who took a serious interest in buying the boat were some singlehanded ocean racers. Steve Clark decided against selling, figuring if anyone were going to break the boat, it would be him.
But the concept had too much potential to be ignored by the offshore racing world. Michel Desjoyeaux won the second leg of the 1991 Mini Transat with a canting keel and soon after Isabelle Autissier launched an Open 60 with canting-keel technology.



https://www.sailingworld.com/racing/stuck-centerline

jackster
10-17-2018, 04:52 PM
Movable ballast around deck level is a pretty ancient idea, put into practise in Australia and/or NZ about 1860 and by Herreshoff a few years later. The problem was that once you lost control of the ballast trolley it could run off the rails (literally) and in one case allegedly straight out of the side of the boat. The other thing is that it's problematic in terms of assisting with self righting - if you get caught aback the ballast to windward is going to make it impossible to recover.

I've only sailed an old Open 60 and then only very briefly. They are interesting boats but one thing that's interesting is how little they have actually passed on to mainstream yachting in terms of basic design. There's a current tendency to create very beamy cruiser-racers but other Open 60 features like water ballast, canting keels, foils, outriggers etc are only seen in a tiny percentage of racing boats. This tendency to have a big difference between the bleeding edge and the mainstream isn't good for the sport IMHO.

Charal is certainly impressive, but IMHO what's more impressive is what you can now get from a production racer/cruiser with no double rudders, no canting keel, no foils, and none of that other stuff that makes sailing vastly more expensive and complicated;


https://youtu.be/X3nThVJc-1M?t=181

You know, I know absolutley NOTHING about "Race Sailing" but how they recovered that boat has me completely dumbfounded and in admiration for those sailors!