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Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 12:10 PM
Hello my friends, it's been a while since I've checked in, but I see much hasn't changed.

After the previous week of President Trump's successful NAFTA renegotiation, testimony undermining the contrived Russia investigation and YUGE victory over every dirty trick in the book to seat his new Supreme Court justice, I thought it might be nice to say hi and convey some bad news for those who oppose the MAGA agenda.

The republicans are going to increase their senate majority in the upcoming midterm election.

Durnik
10-08-2018, 12:58 PM
sadly, more than likely..

and some Dems are still saying 'Hillary 'won'..

makes me wonder just who is most delusional.

S.V. Airlie
10-08-2018, 01:01 PM
She won the popular vote because 3 million illegal voters voted for her.

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 01:03 PM
As Mike referenced on another thread, democrats are going to have to realize where they have gone wrong and make some serious adjustments if they're going to turn things around.

Rich Jones
10-08-2018, 01:11 PM
As Mike referenced on another thread, democrats are going to have to realize where they have gone wrong and make some serious adjustments if they're going to turn things around. Got it. Only Democrats do things wrong. Republicans are perfect. Golly, who knew?

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 01:35 PM
Got it. Only Democrats do things wrong. Republicans are perfect. Golly, who knew?

Of course, there is no such thing as a perfect party or politician. After all, they're a reflection of us!

However, due to the pioneering efforts of the Tea Party, followed by Donald Trump defying both establishment parties, the GOP has found their way to middle America and their future is bright. On the other hand, democrats have veered left, far left and the party is in disarray.

wizbang 13
10-08-2018, 01:50 PM
"Hello my friends, "

I'm not your friend

David G
10-08-2018, 02:06 PM
I just wonder. Do you suppose THIS is what Rick means when he says, "... the GOP has found their way to middle America"??

https://www.newsweek.com/kavanaugh-abortion-supreme-court-roe-v-wade-1158372

A councilman in West Virginia has deleted a Facebook post in which he said “get you’re [sic] coathangers ready” after Kavanaugh’s confirmation by the Senate.

Eric Barber is a councilman for Parkersburg City and an anti-abortion activist. He posted the comment in response to the news that West Virginia’s Democratic Senator, Joe Manchin, was backing Brett Kavanaugh’s confirmation, securing his path to the Supreme Court.

Barber wrote on a private group: “Better get you’re [sic] coat hangers ready, liberals.” He has since deleted it, though other users saved screenshots and shared them.

Tom Montgomery
10-08-2018, 02:10 PM
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71wa%2BXBHSNL._UX522_.jpg

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 02:23 PM
David, that utter vileness of democrats opposing the Kavanaugh nomination has accomplished what republicans could never hope to do. It has united and energized the republican party, even to the point of bringing never Trumpers on board!

Even the extreme right wing NPR reports democrats have lost their enthusiasm advantage and it all points to democrats becoming unhinged in this last process.

That aside, unless over the next 29 days the Trump Tide keeps rising completely over the sea wall, I think Joe Manchin will retain his senate seat, in spite of being up for re-election in West Virginia. However, that probably won't be the case for other senate democrats defending their senate seats in Trump country.

Who knows what is going to happen in the much more fluid house of representatives, but look for the GOP to increase it's majority in the senate.

Tom Montgomery
10-08-2018, 02:27 PM
Man are you setting yourself up for a major disappointment!

Be sure to check in with us on Wednesday, November 7th.

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 02:27 PM
LOL
Hey Tom, I would like to thank you for loaning us your most capable senator to lead the confirmation process through some extremely perilous waters!

David G
10-08-2018, 02:33 PM
David, that utter vileness of democrats opposing the Kavanaugh nomination has accomplished what republicans could never hope to do. It has united and energized the republican party, even to the point of bringing never Trumpers on board!

Even the extreme right wing NPR reports democrats have lost their enthusiasm advantage and it all points to democrats becoming unhinged in this last process.

That aside, unless over the next 29 days the Trump Tide keeps rising completely over the sea wall, I think Joe Manchin will retain his senate seat, in spite of being up for re-election in West Virginia. However, that probably won't be the case for other senate democrats defending their senate seats in Trump country. Who knows what is going to happen in the much more fluid house of representatives, but look for the GOP to increase it's majority in the senate.

Rick,

If you were attempting to continue the conversation by answering my question of the fellow in West Virginia... I missed it.

But until you put together a response to that question - I'll address some of your comments.

First - in what way was opposition to BK 'utter vileness'?

And - you say it has galvanized Republican support? What evidence do you have for that? What I see is a mixed bag. 538 says the odds of Republicans retaining the Senate went higher... but then again, the Senate was never likely to be in play. But they have the odds of R's retaining the House falling since the whole BK thing.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-kavanaugh-helping-republicans-midterm-chances/

Do you have better info to offer... or are you just optimistically and uncritically seizing on the party line (despite the parties long history of lying thru their teeth) as gospel truth.

And... would it be TOO overwhelming for you to provide evidence for the surging 'Trump Tide' you mention?

Here's what I see. Trump's disapproval rating about 10 points higher than his approval rating. Or maybe you are looking at the fact that his disaprovals have gone down a couple of points since the recent high of 54.5% about a month ago? --

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo

Tom Montgomery
10-08-2018, 02:47 PM
Rick-Mi is gleefully counting chickens that will not hatch for another month.

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 02:47 PM
David,

You mentioned Joe Manchin, which is highly relevant to a topic like this. While he is taking some heat for his yes vote, his finger was in the wind the entire time and he never came out with his final position until after the riveting speech by Senator Collins. Still, I've got a feeling he will hold his seat. Could be wrong on that if the Trump Tide rises out of control though.

Pointing out individual freak shows as insignificant as a Facebook post represents a never ending cycle of diversion which frankly, is not worthy of discussion.

That aside, I'm just astounded that you don't acknowledge the unacceptable, totally vile conduct of the left during this process. From dirty political dealing, to doxxing representatives and their families, to screeching in the elevators and clawing at the Supreme Court doors. It was and is just plain uncivilized and the left is going to pay a price for it this upcoming midterm election.

Tom Montgomery
10-08-2018, 02:52 PM
Ah... much better.

David G
10-08-2018, 03:01 PM
David,

You mentioned Joe Manchin, which is highly relevant to a topic like this. While he is taking some heat for his yes vote, his finger was in the wind the entire time and he never came out with his final position until after the riveting speech by Senator Collins. Still, I've got a feeling he will hold his seat. Could be wrong on that if the Trump Tide rises out of control though.

Pointing out individual freak shows as insignificant as a Facebook post represents a never ending cycle of diversion which frankly, is not worthy of discussion.

That aside, I'm just astounded that you don't acknowledge the unacceptable, totally vile conduct of the left during this process. From dirty political dealing, to doxxing representatives and their families, to screeching in the elevators and clawing at the Supreme Court doors. It was and is just plain uncivilized and the left is going to pay a price for it this upcoming midterm election.

OK... this is getting tedious.

No... I never mentioned Manchin. Do try to keep up.

Your answer about the dimwit in WV, despite him representing a significant portion of the Trumpistas, is, "We don't want to discuss it"? If you're arguing that he's a meaningless extreme outlier... I'd have to disagree. Do I have to go back and dig up all the signs from rallies for the TeaParty that you have lauded? They are every bit as dingleberry. If that's your argument... then state it and support it. Don't just attempt to duck it.

I asked you WHAT was 'utterly vile' about resistance to the BK nomination... not whether you were amazed that I didn't automatically see your perspective.

And again you claim 'the left is going to pay a price'. And again I ask 'based upon what evidence' do you make that assertion? I offered some data. You did not respond.

I'm beginning to conclude that you are either disinterested in actual debate... or incapable of engaging in it. If neither of those are true... show us. If you can't/won't - there's always room on my ignore list for purveyors of unbuttressed bs.

Tom Montgomery
10-08-2018, 03:04 PM
Rick-Mi is unnecessary. Anyone interested in this alternate reality can simply log on to INFOWARS, Breitbart or The Blaze.

skuthorp
10-08-2018, 03:04 PM
Rick you haven't won, and frankly it's not up to the Dem's to do better. The win was stolen of course, and the voters now, including the 40% no show have the future in their hands. It's up to them whether Donald get's up again or not, but even if he does you will not have won in the long term.

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 03:05 PM
Rick-Mi is gleefully counting chickens that will not hatch for another month.

We remember all too well the premature touchdown dances to "Madame President" and no path to 270, I'm not going down that road.

However, I've carefully looked into the midterm race for the US Senate and can't help but come to the conclusion that the GOP is going to increase it's majority.

The House of Representatives is a totally different story and with all the negative energy built up, it's entirely possible for democrats to flip that important branch of government. We'll just have to see how that works out after the votes are counted though because it's my opinion democrats that held an election advantage overplayed their hand on the Kavanaugh nomination, helping republicans begin to catch up in the enthusiasm department.

David G
10-08-2018, 03:09 PM
Here you go, Rick. It seems you could use this --

https://ei.marketwatch.com/Multimedia/2016/12/15/Photos/NS/MW-FC101_news_20161215131112_NS.jpg?uuid=dd9266d2-c2f1-11e6-9176-001cc448aede

oznabrag
10-08-2018, 03:22 PM
Of course, there is no such thing as a perfect party or politician. After all, they're a reflection of us!

If I were a 'Republican', and thought that pack of traitorous, anti-American orcs were a reflection of me, I'd go home and eat a bullet.



However, due to the pioneering efforts of the Tea Party, followed by Donald Trump defying both establishment parties, the GOP has found their way to middle America and their future is bright. On the other hand, democrats have veered left, far left and the party is in disarray.

Really?

No, not really.

The Democratic Party has veered rightward consistently for a couple of decades, now.

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 03:23 PM
No... I never mentioned Manchin. Do try to keep up.

Keep up? Senator Joe Manchin was directly mentioned in the quote you posted from the link you provided!




[/COLOR]https://www.newsweek.com/kavanaugh-abortion-supreme-court-roe-v-wade-1158372

[I]A councilman in West Virginia has deleted a Facebook post in which he said “get you’re [sic] coathangers ready” after Kavanaugh’s confirmation by the Senate.

[FONT=Arial][I]Eric Barber is a councilman for Parkersburg City and an anti-abortion activist. [B]He posted the comment in response to the news that West Virginia’s Democratic Senator, Joe Manchin, was backing Brett Kavanaugh’s confirmation, securing his path to the Supreme Court.


Everyone comes here expecting a little snark, but I'm accustomed to you being much more sharp than suggesting I learn to keep up while you fail to acknowledge the content of your own post.

I'm just writing it off as you being off your game today instead of slipping since the last time we interacted.

David G
10-08-2018, 03:28 PM
Keep up? Senator Joe Manchin was directly mentioned in the quote you posted from the link you provided!




Everyone comes here expecting a little snark, but I'm accustomed to you being much more sharp than suggesting I learn to keep up while you fail to acknowledge the content of your own post.

I'm just writing it off as you being off your game today instead of slipping since the last time we interacted.

You're right, kinda. I never mentioned Manchin. But it's true that the link I provided - while it wasn't directly ABOUT Manchin... did mention him. You get off on a technicality.

Now... about the rest of it... Stand and deliver sir!

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 03:33 PM
Really?

No, not really.

The Democratic Party has veered rightward consistently for a couple of decades, now.

You can't be serious!

Bill Clinton, popular two term president of two decades ago who enacted welfare reform, the crime bill, financial and telecommunications deregulation, the restoration of religious freedom act along with the defense of marriage wouldn't even be accepted by the democratic party of today!

George Jung
10-08-2018, 03:50 PM
I don't think the information schematic offers much for ol' Rick - water off a duck, I'd say -

but a high colonic might offer some relief.

birlinn
10-08-2018, 03:53 PM
All this R wingnuttery is getting exhausting.

Rich Jones
10-08-2018, 04:03 PM
Rick is apparently channeling Trump. Attack! Attack! Attack! No matter what is going on, always attack! Peace and tranquility is something that Trump abhors. He can not survive unless he is in conflict. Chaos is victory. More and more in the former Republican party (it no longer exists) are doing likewise, following his sick example. "Trump before country!" is the rallying cry. "Utter destruction to anyone who stands in our way!" "Mock them, bully them, destroy them!"
Rick is also clearly gloating. Sorry, it ain't working. We still stand proud with our party.

David G
10-08-2018, 05:09 PM
So Rick - How about this 'individual freak show'. R currently leading in the race for U.S. Senate. Still 'don't want to discuss it'? Well... I wouldn't blame you for wanting to continue to duck the topic, though it also detracts from your credibility --

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/08/us/politics/heidi-heitkamp-kevin-cramer-metoo.html


It was not the first time Mr. Cramer had made an incendiary comment about the Kavanaugh case. Last month, he dismissed Dr. Blasey’s charges because the alleged attack “never went anywhere.”

His comments were all the more striking because there are five federally recognized tribes in North Dakota and sexual violence against Native American women is epidemic: they are two-and-half times more likely to be sexually assaulted than nonnative women.

Mr. Cramer is open about his capability to offend, and other Republicans are matter-of-fact about it. “Sometimes he says stupid stuff,” said Ed Schafer, the former governor of North Dakota. (Before Mr. Schafer offered that assessment, and unbeknown to him, Mr. Cramer slighted the former governor: “I know this state better than her, John Hoeven, Jack Dalrymple, and every former governor added up,” referring to Ms. Heitkamp and two former Republican governors.)

David G
10-08-2018, 05:31 PM
How about this one, Rick -

A sitting R governor - who has run campaign ads. Nine of nine contain lies. Just more 'business as usual' for the R's???

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/taking-names-scott-maxwell/os-ne-rick-scott-lies-politifact-bill-nelson-scott-maxwell-20180928-story.html


If I told you there were lies in politics, it would probably shock you about as much as if I told you there’s water in the ocean.

This campaign season, however, we’re seeing something more extreme — falsehoods in nine of the nine Rick Scott ads vetted by the Pulitizer Prize-winning fact-checkers at Politifact.

Yes, nine out of nine.

It’s almost impressive, yet hardly surprising, as Scott has used lies to distract from his own record every step of his political career.

David G
10-08-2018, 06:46 PM
So... Rick,

You seem to be occupied elsewhere. But when you come back, you might look at what other R's - the ones in the trenches - are saying about the midterms. Spoiler - they are not nearly as sanguine about things as you are. Here's one example. Pay particular attention to former RNC member Doug Heye --

https://www.yahoo.com/news/republicans-fear-democratic-blue-wave-spreading-once-safe-100910665.html

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 06:53 PM
David,

If I was interested in chasing rabbits, I would buy a beagle.

So far you've refuted exactly nothing from the OP. I made a definitive statement:

"The republicans are going to increase their senate majority in the upcoming midterm election."

Now, if all you have is to quote Nate Silver, who was totally discredited last election and let someone else do your thinking for you, or produce a 'link to think' from some other talking head, there is no point in taking it further.

Let's get it out where you stand. Do you think democrats are going to take over the majority in the senate, retain their status quo or lose seats this midterm?

McMike
10-08-2018, 06:53 PM
Wow, Let's see, who replied to this carp? Oh, the usual. Weak.

David G
10-08-2018, 07:12 PM
David,

If I was interested in chasing rabbits, I would buy a beagle.

So far you've refuted exactly nothing from the OP. I made a definitive statement:

"The republicans are going to increase their senate majority in the upcoming midterm election."

Now, if all you have is to quote Nate Silver, who was totally discredited last election and let someone else do your thinking for you, or produce a 'link to think' from some other talking head, there is no point in taking it further.

Let's get it out where you stand. Do you think democrats are going to take over the majority in the senate, retain their status quo or lose seats this midterm?

Oops... STRAW MAN ALERT!!!!!

When you make up things your opponent is saying, and then argue against them... that's a Logical Fallacy called the straw man fallacy. It is, to be blunt, a well-known form of dishonesty. Shame on you, sir.

If you review the bidding, I don't think you'll find anyone disputing the notion that the Republicans are poised to increase their Senate majority.

I did dispute several of your other statements. I notice you make no attempt now to defend the various bits of odiferous offerings that I did address.

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 07:12 PM
David,

Since you brought him up, I think Rick Scott is going to unseat Ben Nelson in Florida, even though it's difficult to oust an incumbent in a contested state.

I think he will pull it off because of the "Trump effect" in his home state of Florida, plus Scott has really solid name recognition as governor which is a prerequisite to flipping the seat of an entrenched incumbent.

I don't think the anger of democrats and vote fraud rampant in SE Florida will be enough to overcome the central and northern parts of the state.

McMike
10-08-2018, 07:14 PM
You know Dave, this is why they call us triggered snowflakes.

David G
10-08-2018, 07:16 PM
You know Dave, this is why they call us triggered snowflakes.

This? What?

skuthorp
10-08-2018, 07:20 PM
For the supporters of the right in the US today a quick resume of the life of Deidrich Bonhoeffer might give some caution.

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 07:21 PM
If you review the bidding, I don't think you'll find anyone disputing the notion that the Republicans are poised to increase their Senate majority.


Now that you've admitted to the important contention of the OP when pressed, explain to me how the democrats have increased their chances by their dirty politics and uncivilized behavior which has united and energized the republican party, while negating the democrat enthusiasm advantage as reported by NPR?

McMike
10-08-2018, 07:22 PM
The idea that you think this guy is doing anything but wind you up . . .

David G
10-08-2018, 07:28 PM
The idea that you think this guy is doing anything but wind you up . . .You are correct. In attempting to treat him as an honest, competent, correspondent... I have erred. He's not. But that's the way I insist upon approaching it. If they don't respond in kind... they eventually make my Ignore List.

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 07:37 PM
I have erred.

You've erred alright, not only in comprehension, but also in not recognizing what you yourself posted in some sort of a bizarre attempt at a rebuttal!

You brought up and attacked Rick Scott, let's see you make the case for why Ben Nelson is going to retain his seat.

Sky Blue
10-08-2018, 07:45 PM
Kavanaugh is a milque-toasty Establishment-type Bushie. It is precisely for these reasons that he was such an inspired pick by Trump. The Conservaturds, who never conserve anything, would have bailed at the first sign of trouble had Trump nominated a libertarian ideologue.

The Conservaturds thought there was a difference between them and the Trumpies in the minds of Democrats. The Kavanaugh mess showed them that they couldn't have been more wrong.

The #Nevertrump bunch has learned that they are as deeply hated as the Trumpies. They just got woke.

The party is more united than at any time since the rise of the Tea Party movement, more than 8 years ago now. Trump has united the Republican Party.

#Winning!

David G
10-08-2018, 07:45 PM
You've erred alright, not only in comprehension, but also in not recognizing what you yourself posted in some sort of a bizarre attempt at a rebuttal!

You brought up and attacked Rick Scott, let's see you make the case for why Ben Nelson is going to retain his seat.

You're doing it again. Where did I way that Scott would lose? I simply pointed out that if he wins, he will do it thru dishonesty. 9/9 campaign ads contained lies. If you can't keep track of what I'm saying and not saying... or if your 'misapprehension' is deliberate... you're simply a waste of time.

Barry
10-08-2018, 07:49 PM
What is..." the MAGA agenda."
Can you clearly spell it out, because I honestly don't know what that means.
Also, could you be so kind as to illustrate what benefits are to be derived from ""The MAGA Agenda".

Thanks

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 07:53 PM
Well David, I'm glad you agree prospects for democrats in the upcoming midterms regarding the senate are grim.

When the results come in for the US Senate that give President Trump a free hand in his future court nominations and actions of the Senate, don't wait for someone to write a book on "What Happened".

Just look back to appalling actions by democrats during the Kavanaugh confirmation proceedings and recognize that the left united and energized republicans to match or exceed their motivation this midterm election.

leikec
10-08-2018, 08:10 PM
Well David, I'm glad you agree prospects for democrats in the upcoming midterms regarding the senate are grim.

When the results come in for the US Senate that give President Trump a free hand in his future court nominations and actions of the Senate, don't wait for someone to write a book on "What Happened".

Just look back to appalling actions by democrats during the Kavanaugh confirmation proceedings and recognize that the left united and energized republicans to match or exceed their motivation this midterm election.

I wonder. I'm seeing a lot of really ticked off Female GOP-leaning independents out there...and they aren't mad at Democrats.

Jeff C

Garret
10-08-2018, 08:23 PM
Rick makes a good point that Dems better get their "stuff" together if they want to gain any seats. That being said, the folks who behaved badly (despicably) in the BK hearings were the Reps, not the Dems.

But it seems that Reps now believe that it's all about the "win" - no matter how sleazy one has to be to get it. I just hope these people wake up before the corporations & the 1% have taken over the country.

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 08:32 PM
What is..." the MAGA agenda."
Can you clearly spell it out, because I honestly don't know what that means.
Also, could you be so kind as to illustrate what benefits are to be derived from ""The MAGA Agenda".

Thanks

It would require the equivalent of rewriting War and Peace to fully explain it, but allow me to put it simply, without doing the concept justice.

Post WWII, America was on top of the world. Our troops came home, the baby boom was off and running and the United States that avoided the devastation of our factories was booming the economy, creating what some would arguably call our greatest generation.

Beginning in the 60's, while promoting some good things like civil rights, we also began a downward slide that steadily undermined the principles that made us great. Judicial activism arose on many levels and undermined our foundation, as an example the wholesale murder of our future citizens in the womb.

This misdirection also grew government to proportions never imagined by our founding fathers! The nanny state exploded which created a negative side effect, undermining the family unit.

Then beginning in the 70's with Nixon we moved toward globalism, which ended up watering down American sovereignty and our preeminent manufacturing position. Later, fully manifesting under Clinton, Bush and Obama, China and Mexico were literally propped up from nothing and piece by piece at the hand of corrupt and purchased politicians, globalism sold out our middle class.

I come from the rust belt and have personally witnessed complete towns devastated when factories moved overseas due to the use of slave labor, zero environmental regulations and unfair trade practices.

Combine all those things together and you have a prescription for a country in decline and the people on the ground in middle America knew it.

Now, along comes a non-politician who understands business and is interested in actually looking out for the best interests of Americans and American companies. Who wants judges to interpret the law and constitution, not make law and twist our founding document to meet the needs of fickle agendas.

An agenda that sets laws and policy to benefit our citizens and get a lid on illegal immigrants pouring unchecked into our country. An agenda that sets law and order above the criminal element, that supports our veterans, military, police and border control instead of reviling them.

Add all this and much more together and you have a large segment of our population that gets it and is ALL IN on getting us back on track to the principles that put us in the enviable position our country is in today.

The dependent class, authority lovers and big government types are in strong opposition for a variety of reasons. But, there has always been a segment of our society that opposes our fundamental principles, after all, there were just as many Loyalists who actually "resisted" our original revolution and preferred to be subjects as there were patriots who won American independence.

The MAGA agenda is very much for real and it's not going away. Thank goodness, because the future of America depends on it!

Rick-Mi
10-08-2018, 08:43 PM
I wonder. I'm seeing a lot of really ticked off Female GOP-leaning independents out there...and they aren't mad at Democrats.

Jeff C

I'm sure there are some Jeff, but I believe the overall number is exaggerated by the mainstream media.

We will certainly find out soon, especially in the House of Representatives that is extremely fluid and will more closely reflect the overall thoughts of the electorate than the limited senate races.

If women who normally lean republican were offended, we will definitely see the reuslts and if that's the case, democrats will take over a powerful branch of government and earn a major say in things going forward.

oznabrag
10-08-2018, 08:44 PM
Kavanaugh is a milque-toasty Establishment-type Bushie. It is precisely for these reasons that he was such an inspired pick by Trump. The Conservaturds, who never conserve anything, would have bailed at the first sign of trouble had Trump nominated a libertarian ideologue.

The Conservaturds thought there was a difference between them and the Trumpies in the minds of Democrats. The Kavanaugh mess showed them that they couldn't have been more wrong.

The #Nevertrump bunch has learned that they are as deeply hated as the Trumpies. They just got woke.

The party is more united than at any time since the rise of the Tea Party movement, more than 8 years ago now. Trump has united the Republican Party.

#Winning!

No.

If you believe that, you are blowing smoke up your own backside.

Kavanaugh believes that the POTUS is above the law. That will be handy when your Mendacious Messiah gets charged with treason.

He also is a proponent of torture.

He will also vote to make the Presidential Pardon effective for both Federal AND State crimes.

He is also a serial perjurer.

So, unless you relish the idea of Trump being Dictator For Life in a horribly oppressive Authoritarian Police State, and I believe you DO relish that thought, then you should aver immediately and without hesitation that Kavanaugh's place is not on the Bench, but in a prison cell.

Rick-Mi
10-09-2018, 11:22 AM
What is..." the MAGA agenda."
Can you clearly spell it out, because I honestly don't know what that means.You
Also, could you be so kind as to illustrate what benefits are to be derived from ""The MAGA Agenda".

Thanks

You asked and got a specific answer, does that help clear things up for you about the concept of MAGA agenda?

Osborne Russell
10-09-2018, 12:18 PM
It would require the equivalent of rewriting War and Peace to fully explain it, but allow me to put it simply, without doing the concept justice.

You put it well, apart from the huge gaps.


Post WWII, America was on top of the world. Our troops came home, the baby boom was off and running and the United States that avoided the devastation of our factories was booming the economy, creating what some would arguably call our greatest generation.

Those factories were called into being by the war, not by principles. The isolation is from geography, not principles.


. . . creating what some would arguably call our greatest generation.

. . . and then the lynching resumed. The oppression of women, the raping of the environment. All of it based on principles that are morally wrong, and are still with us.


. . . a downward slide that steadily undermined the principles that made us great. Judicial activism arose on many levels and undermined our foundation, as an example the wholesale murder of our future citizens in the womb.

Again with the principles that made us great. What were they and how did they make us great? Great, how? Is aspiring to be great unquestionably a good thing?


This misdirection also grew government to proportions never imagined by our founding fathers!

The FF deliberately created a structure that allowed the government to grow.


The nanny state exploded which created a negative side effect, undermining the family unit.

The nanny state isn't the New Deal. It's a perversion of it.


Then beginning in the 70's with Nixon we moved toward globalism, which ended up watering down American sovereignty and our preeminent manufacturing position. Later, fully manifesting under Clinton, Bush and Obama, China and Mexico were literally propped up from nothing and piece by piece at the hand of corrupt and purchased politicians, globalism sold out our middle class.

Much of what you call globalism is simply the economic growth of the rest of the world, which narrows the gap. Could we, should we have stopped it?


I come from the rust belt and have personally witnessed complete towns devastated when factories moved overseas due to the use of slave labor, zero environmental regulations and unfair trade practices.

True.


Now, along comes a non-politician who understands business and is interested in actually looking out for the best interests of Americans and American companies.

You hold that to be true because you want it to be. To do what you want him to do, he would have to have a deep understanding of the world as it exists and how it got that way, a careful program to follow, the political skill to rally the nation behind it. He has none of that and none of the motivations required to produce and sustain it.

Paul Pless
10-09-2018, 12:33 PM
It would require the equivalent of rewriting War and Peace to fully explain it, but allow me to put it simply, without doing the concept justice.

Post WWII, America was on top of the world. Our troops came home, the baby boom was off and running and the United States that avoided the devastation of our factories was booming the economy, creating what some would arguably call our greatest generation.

Beginning in the 60's, while promoting some good things like civil rights, we also began a downward slide that steadily undermined the principles that made us great. Judicial activism arose on many levels and undermined our foundation, as an example the wholesale murder of our future citizens in the womb.

This misdirection also grew government to proportions never imagined by our founding fathers! The nanny state exploded which created a negative side effect, undermining the family unit.

Then beginning in the 70's with Nixon we moved toward globalism, which ended up watering down American sovereignty and our preeminent manufacturing position. Later, fully manifesting under Clinton, Bush and Obama, China and Mexico were literally propped up from nothing and piece by piece at the hand of corrupt and purchased politicians, globalism sold out our middle class.

I come from the rust belt and have personally witnessed complete towns devastated when factories moved overseas due to the use of slave labor, zero environmental regulations and unfair trade practices.

Combine all those things together and you have a prescription for a country in decline and the people on the ground in middle America knew it.

Now, along comes a non-politician who understands business and is interested in actually looking out for the best interests of Americans and American companies. Who wants judges to interpret the law and constitution, not make law and twist our founding document to meet the needs of fickle agendas.

An agenda that sets laws and policy to benefit our citizens and get a lid on illegal immigrants pouring unchecked into our country. An agenda that sets law and order above the criminal element, that supports our veterans, military, police and border control instead of reviling them.

Add all this and much more together and you have a large segment of our population that gets it and is ALL IN on getting us back on track to the principles that put us in the enviable position our country is in today.

The dependent class, authority lovers and big government types are in strong opposition for a variety of reasons. But, there has always been a segment of our society that opposes our fundamental principles, after all, there were just as many Loyalists who actually "resisted" our original revolution and preferred to be subjects as there were patriots who won American independence.

The MAGA agenda is very much for real and it's not going away. Thank goodness, because the future of America depends on it!

somewhere in there we stopped investing in education, stopped investing in people, stopped investing in science and technology; we trashed the environment. . .

we stopped paying taxes and started using debt to pay for the functioning of our government

trump, nor the rest of the republicans in power, have any plan to address any of that; as a matter of fact addressing those issues are antithetical to the GOP

leikec
10-09-2018, 12:34 PM
Let's talk about the Nanny State.

Republicans (now known as the political action committee for Donald Trump) want to--

Tell me who I can marry...

monitor what goes on in my bedroom...

Force me to believe in their deity...

Specify how I'm supposed to behave during the national anthem...

Make our children take a verbal pledge at school...

Limit my constitutional right to protest...

Militarize our Federal Agencies and state and local police...

Dictate what medical procedures we can have and insert themselves between us and our doctors...

Misconstrue the meaning of the 2nd amendment while attempting to nullify or bastardize the 1st, 4th, 5th, 8th, 9th, 13th, 15th, 19th, and 26th amendments.

Trumpists believe in a nanny state (or Police State, take your pick) more than any other group.

Jeff C

David G
10-09-2018, 01:24 PM
Hitler was a winner. Yale historian compare Trump & Hitler --

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-1930-thirties-fascist-dictator-adolf-hitler-reichstag-fire-trick-yale-historian-timothy-a7651766.html

johnw
10-09-2018, 02:12 PM
It would require the equivalent of rewriting War and Peace to fully explain it, but allow me to put it simply, without doing the concept justice.

Post WWII, America was on top of the world. Our troops came home, the baby boom was off and running and the United States that avoided the devastation of our factories was booming the economy, creating what some would arguably call our greatest generation.

Beginning in the 60's, while promoting some good things like civil rights, we also began a downward slide that steadily undermined the principles that made us great. Judicial activism arose on many levels and undermined our foundation, as an example the wholesale murder of our future citizens in the womb.

This misdirection also grew government to proportions never imagined by our founding fathers! The nanny state exploded which created a negative side effect, undermining the family unit.

Then beginning in the 70's with Nixon we moved toward globalism, which ended up watering down American sovereignty and our preeminent manufacturing position. Later, fully manifesting under Clinton, Bush and Obama, China and Mexico were literally propped up from nothing and piece by piece at the hand of corrupt and purchased politicians, globalism sold out our middle class.

I come from the rust belt and have personally witnessed complete towns devastated when factories moved overseas due to the use of slave labor, zero environmental regulations and unfair trade practices.

Combine all those things together and you have a prescription for a country in decline and the people on the ground in middle America knew it.

Now, along comes a non-politician who understands business and is interested in actually looking out for the best interests of Americans and American companies. Who wants judges to interpret the law and constitution, not make law and twist our founding document to meet the needs of fickle agendas.

An agenda that sets laws and policy to benefit our citizens and get a lid on illegal immigrants pouring unchecked into our country. An agenda that sets law and order above the criminal element, that supports our veterans, military, police and border control instead of reviling them.

Add all this and much more together and you have a large segment of our population that gets it and is ALL IN on getting us back on track to the principles that put us in the enviable position our country is in today.

The dependent class, authority lovers and big government types are in strong opposition for a variety of reasons. But, there has always been a segment of our society that opposes our fundamental principles, after all, there were just as many Loyalists who actually "resisted" our original revolution and preferred to be subjects as there were patriots who won American independence.

The MAGA agenda is very much for real and it's not going away. Thank goodness, because the future of America depends on it!
Actually, the MAGA agenda seems to consist of disassembling the entire international apparatus of alliances that we assembled after WW II to cement our position as leaders of the free world. The treatment of our allies has been appalling under Trump, and the State Department has been undermined to the point where we don't even have ambassadors in some countries.

But I see you have a rich fantasy life, and I hope it entertains you.

Rick-Mi
10-09-2018, 02:50 PM
The nanny state isn't the New Deal. It's a perversion of it.

Amen brother!


Osborne,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. There are huge gaps and I warned readers in advance there would be. That was just 'winging it' off the cuff in an abbreviated form for the sake of discussion.

We agree on a few things and disagree on some and I appreciate your perspective. I don't have time to address them all, so allow me to focus on one which I believe is fundamental to the MAGA philosophy:



Then beginning in the 70's with Nixon we moved toward globalism, which ended up watering down American sovereignty and our preeminent manufacturing position. Later, fully manifesting under Clinton, Bush and Obama, China and Mexico were literally propped up from nothing and piece by piece at the hand of corrupt and purchased politicians, globalism sold out our middle class.


Much of what you call globalism is simply the economic growth of the rest of the world, which narrows the gap. Could we, should we have stopped it?


Globalism is a large topic and often not well defined. In the context of my reference it's two faceted, a global elite who are striving to create centralized power and high level business forces within the United States that go to great length to promote profit over any other interest. Politicians are a key tool of the globalists by their easy corruptibility, compounded by their plain stupidity.

Neither China nor Mexico rose to manufacturing prominence on their own, they weren't even on the scale until completely propped up and created by globalist interests. This was a decision by global elite power brokers starting around the time of Nixon, having nothing to do with these countries rising on their own.

American industrialists were quick to climb on board to take advantage of slave labor and avoid ever restrictive environmental regulations in the US.

Thus, we experienced crooked and stupid politicians that sold out the American middle class to the global elite profit brokers and the people full well knew it. Bush 1, Clinton, Bush II, Obama and a large contingent of congress undermined the economic base of America and put us on a path to subservience and implosion.

A certain segment of our population totally gets it and they FINALLY have a champion who truly has their back!

Being a Ross Perot supporter who expertly and eloquently warned of that "giant sucking sound", honestly, I never thought we would see the day.....

It's nothing short of a miracle!

Rick-Mi
10-09-2018, 03:01 PM
Actually, the MAGA agenda seems to consist of disassembling the entire international apparatus of alliances that we assembled after WW II to cement our position as leaders of the free world. The treatment of our allies has been appalling under Trump, and the State Department has been undermined to the point where we don't even have ambassadors in some countries.




First of all, ambassadors outside of major powers are nothing except figureheads, totally powerless and nothing more than window dressing.

Aside from that, I completely disagree with your assessment. Under Trump, America is now re-assuming it's leadership position in the world!

From inducing deadbeat NATO countries to finally cough up their fair share, to renegotiated trade agreements, progress on a nuclear treaty with NK, scrapping one of the worst agreements in history with Iran to no longer being the 'sucker at the table' in the Paris Climate Accord, President Trump is calling the shots around the world and putting the United States back into the leadership role where we belong.





.

Rick-Mi
10-09-2018, 03:07 PM
Hitler was a winner. Yale historian compare Trump & Hitler --

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-1930-thirties-fascist-dictator-adolf-hitler-reichstag-fire-trick-yale-historian-timothy-a7651766.html

David, if you want to be a meaningful part of this discussion, you're going to have to step up your game.

Abstract comparisons, derived from other people's thoughts via yet another 'link to think' isn't going to cut it.

If you have something to add, try articulating your own position as others have successfully accomplished.

Tom Montgomery
10-09-2018, 03:08 PM
Three posts in a row. Rick-Mi appears to be all wound up.

Paul Pless
10-09-2018, 03:09 PM
i'd like to see rick respond to this post
somewhere in there we stopped investing in education, stopped investing in people, stopped investing in science and technology; we trashed the environment and s[ent a lot of hard earned money and time trying to bring it back. . .

we stopped paying taxes and started using debt to pay for the functioning of our government

trump, nor the rest of the republicans in power, have any plan to address any of that; as a matter of fact addressing those issues are antithetical to the GOP

Tom Montgomery
10-09-2018, 03:11 PM
I read that post and am not surprised that Rick-Mi has yet to respond to it.

Ya'll are wasting your time. But I suppose it is entertaining in a way.

ccmanuals
10-09-2018, 03:37 PM
People still seem to be confused as to what globalism, nationalism and patriotism actually are.

Rick-Mi
10-09-2018, 03:43 PM
People still seem to be confused as to what globalism, nationalism and patriotism actually are.

Oh, you better believe it!

Rick-Mi
10-09-2018, 03:52 PM
somewhere in there we stopped investing in education, stopped investing in people, stopped investing in science and technology; we trashed the environment. . .

we stopped paying taxes and started using debt to pay for the functioning of our government

trump, nor the rest of the republicans in power, have any plan to address any of that; as a matter of fact addressing those issues are antithetical to the GOP

Wasn't intentional Paul, I always try to respond when someone gives a thoughtful reply.

Our investment in education has been plenty adequate, but misspent.

Science and technology is booming and America is a world leader in those departments. A key issue going forward is preventing the theft of our technology.

America is a world leader in environmental strides and I look forward to when countries like China and Mexico begin to scratching the surface of what we have accomplished.

Tax revenue is at all time record levels.

National debt and deficit spending is a huge problem, welcome to the Tea Party! ;-)




.

Rick-Mi
10-09-2018, 04:02 PM
OK, lets address your thoughts.


Let's talk about the Nanny State.

Republicans (now known as the political action committee for Donald Trump) want to--

Tell me who I can marry... Who is President Trump preventing you from marrying?

monitor what goes on in my bedroom... Republicans aren't, but your phone, TV, DVR or other electronics certainly might be!

Force me to believe in their deity... False


Specify how I'm supposed to behave during the national anthem... Does Jerry Jones, Mark Cuban, the Fords or the like write your paycheck?

Make our children take a verbal pledge at school... Excellent

Limit my constitutional right to protest... I'm sure you look really studly in a pink hat, but as soon as you put on a black mask and start breaking windows, starting fires and attacking people, we've got a big problem!

Militarize our Federal Agencies and state and local police...

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set." "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

Barack Obama


Dictate what medical procedures we can have and insert themselves between us and our doctors...

Time to become informed and research the GOP and Trump's recently passed 'right to try'.

Trumpists believe in a nanny state (or Police State, take your pick) more than any other group.

As demonstrated above, that statement is completely contrary to reality.

Jeff C

Paul Pless
10-09-2018, 04:02 PM
Our investment in education has been plenty adequate, but misspent.for forty years, mainly through actions from the right, we've cut spending on higher education year in and year out at both federal and state level; making college education and even advanced vocational education out of reach for many

during those years when you said america was great, the meaning of the american dream for many many people was the possibility that almost anybody that was willing to put in the academic work could go to college and get a degree without being enslaved with debt for decades. . .



Tax revenue is at all time record levels.

National debt and deficit spending is a huge problem, welcome to the Tea Party! ;-)




.its doesn't matter that revenue is at a highpoint if its not enough to cover our debt

what few tea party members did make it to congress have all been assimilated into the spend and borrow republican hypocrisy

trumps tax cuts will add 1 to 3 trillion to the national debt in the next decade

Rick-Mi
10-09-2018, 04:22 PM
its doesn't matter that revenue is at a highpoint if its not enough to cover our debt

what few tea party members did make it to congress have all been assimilated into the spend and borrow republican hypocrisy

trumps tax cuts will add 1 to 3 trillion to the national debt in the next decade

The Trump tax cuts INCREASED revenue to the federal treasury and stimulated the economy to record levels.

We've got a spending problem, not a tax collection problem and one thing is for sure, democrats and RINOs will make it worse.

What we need is to vote in more Tea Party style republicans, expand the Freedom Caucus and make Jim Jordan Speaker of the House and you will see something actually done about the spending problem!

Paul Pless
10-09-2018, 04:33 PM
The Trump tax cuts INCREASED revenue to the federal treasury and stimulated the economy to record levels. uh no, the tax revenue from this year, both corporate and individual has come from the economy that obama and trump inherited built :)

sure there was probably some increased revenue from the corporate tax cut - that will be a one time deal

there is some revenue to the treasury from the tariffs - which is paid for by american taxpayers when they purchase anything affected by the tariffs. . .

Garret
10-09-2018, 06:39 PM
The Trump tax cuts INCREASED revenue to the federal treasury and stimulated the economy to record levels.

We've got a spending problem, not a tax collection problem and one thing is for sure, democrats and RINOs will make it worse.

What we need is to vote in more Tea Party style republicans, expand the Freedom Caucus and make Jim Jordan Speaker of the House and you will see something actually done about the spending problem!

The IMF just downgraded future growth & the head said that it was mostly due to the artificial spike caused by deficit spending in the US.

You cannot keep borrowing & expect that the bill collector will never come knocking on your door. That's economics minus 101 - aka 3rd grade arithmetic. But - keep on believing...

gypsie
10-09-2018, 06:41 PM
Increased revenue is great - but it only matters if spending doesn't increase too.
Presently the Trump admin is growing the national debt exponentially. He had promised to bring it down, but forgot that when he saw the chance to give US$1.5trillion to the richest people in the world. Unfortunately for him the tax cut only gives him about US$15million a year, but he does get it for the rest of his life. Did you notice how much you got? And you'll keep getting that until next year.

leikec
10-09-2018, 06:43 PM
The Trump tax cuts INCREASED revenue to the federal treasury and stimulated the economy to record levels.

We've got a spending problem, not a tax collection problem and one thing is for sure, democrats and RINOs will make it worse.

What we need is to vote in more Tea Party style republicans, expand the Freedom Caucus and make Jim Jordan Speaker of the House and you will see something actually done about the spending problem!

We do have a problem, namely Donald Trump and deficit enabling Republicans.

For most middle class and poverty level Americans the overall standard of living is about the same. There are too many $9.00-$12.00 per hr jobs out there, and none of the necessities of life are any cheaper. Too many Americans are priced out of going to college, the GOP has sabotaged health care in their attempts to destroy the ACA, and now the GOP is dreaming about further cuts to Medicaid, while at the same time they are taking aim at Medicare and Social Security.

I voted for GOP candidates back in the 80's and 90's, but never again. The GOP is gone--it's now the Trump/White Nationalist party. Screw them.

Jeff C

Paul Pless
10-09-2018, 06:47 PM
This new troll is excellent at his craft.Rick has been here a long time and is a fellow Michigander
this is the first political posting I can ever remember from him.

Many of his views are understandable even if I disagree. Michigan was a wealthy state, with secure income, and a positive lifestyle for a long time; there was opportunity here for anybody - white, black, male, female, immigrant or native. But this state took a beating . . .

Garret
10-09-2018, 06:49 PM
rick has been here a long time and is a fellow michigander
this is the first political posting i can ever remember from him

Nah - but he has taken a break from them in the last while.

David G
10-09-2018, 09:37 PM
More Winning!!!!!

Global Economy Slowed by Trump’s Trade Policies according to International Monetary Fundhttps://frnewsreport.com/global-economy-slowed-by-trumps-trade-policies-according-to-international-monetary-fund/

David G
10-09-2018, 09:49 PM
Sometimes 'winning' is just foolsgold. Not only is the (in some ways) healthy economy mostly the result of Obama's efforts... most of what Trump has done will (later) have pernicious consequences --

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43551167_2185026588411531_1769914030786347008_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&oh=8412e8187e44c074458eb227e4df52ff&oe=5C18C2C6

David G
10-09-2018, 10:00 PM
More winning...

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43411767_1906446332768902_8999589955671949312_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&oh=c802498f9caddfdc69fa9684cc94a549&oe=5C469A24

David G
10-09-2018, 10:54 PM
And winning on an international level --

The president’s fantasy is that the U.S. can ignore the global forces of nature.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/opinion/donald-trump-international-relations-diplomacy.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=OpEd%20Columnists


When Donald Trump spoke at the United Nations on Sept. 25 and provoked guffaws from the diplomats in the audience for his boasting, Trump insisted that they were not laughing at him, they were laughing with him.

I wasn’t there so I can’t say what they were actually doing on the outside. But on the inside, I’m pretty sure I know: They were crying.
They were crying over the fact that the America they had come to know and respect over the last 70 years — and whose generosity and security order they had come to rely upon and even take advantage of at times — had left the building.

It had been replaced by Trump’s America, which is different in two fundamental ways.

First, Trump’s America does not see itself as the galvanizer and protector of the liberal global order that brought more peace, prosperity and democracy to more corners of the world over the last 70 years than at any time in history — defying the natural order of things, which is constant jungle-like conflict, protectionism and strongman rule.

Second, Trump’s America is unafraid to engage in the raw exercise of power against any foe or friend to gain economic or geopolitical advantage — no matter how big or small — and, at the same time, is ready to overlook any human rights abuse or killing by any country deemed friendly to Trump personally or not interesting to him geopolitically...

AndyG
10-10-2018, 04:15 AM
More winning!

How to lose (some Russian?) millions, quickly:

Turnberry (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-07-13/trump-s-u-k-trip-a-money-losing-scottish-golf-paradise) and Aberdeen (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-07-15/trump-golf-course-in-scotland-has-made-him-some-enemies)

There are some Trump quotes (we call them 'lies' in Scotland) in both those articles that are, to be honest, outrageous.

Andy

oznabrag
10-10-2018, 04:37 AM
Rick has been here a long time and is a fellow Michigander
this is the first political posting I can ever remember from him.

Many of his views are understandable even if I disagree. Michigan was a wealthy state, with secure income, and a positive lifestyle for a long time; there was opportunity here for anybody - white, black, male, female, immigrant or native. But this state took a beating . . .

Rick trashed me out when I had been on this board for about two days.

Ugly stuff.

Said I was a liar, a Mxxxxxxxer, and several other tasty little insults.

The economic peril he experiences as a citizen of Michigan couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Paul Pless
10-10-2018, 05:22 AM
Rick trashed me out when I had been on this board for about two days.jcsoh busted my chops so hard after my first post in the forum that i left never to return

stan the fifth and mike fonville pm'd me and convinced me to come back - thank god for compassionate conservatives

oznabrag
10-10-2018, 06:15 AM
I understand and accept that you're cooler than me, but I just don't care.

C. Ross
10-10-2018, 07:07 AM
The Trump tax cuts INCREASED revenue to the federal treasury and stimulated the economy to record levels.

We've got a spending problem, not a tax collection problem and one thing is for sure, democrats and RINOs will make it worse.

What we need is to vote in more Tea Party style republicans, expand the Freedom Caucus and make Jim Jordan Speaker of the House and you will see something actually done about the spending problem!

Ive really resisted posting to this silly thread, but this is just too silly.

Here's percentage change in tax receipts since 2000. Where's the increase since the tax bill took effect?

24301

Heres the percentage change in GDP. Where are the "record levels"?

24302

Here's the quarterly percentage change in spending and taxes. Where is the spending problem? And if there is one, why haven't the Tea Party and President Trump turned that around? Why did he sign the last spending bill after saying he'd never sign one like it again? RINOs? Name one whose left in either house, in matters of the budget.

24303

Here's spending by category. What will the Tea Party cut?
Defense? Going up.
Medicare and Medicaid? What's the plan? President Trump says he'll protect it from Democrats.
Social Security? What's the plan? President Trump says he'll protect it from Democrats.
income security? Sure let's put all those welfare queens back to work! Oh, actually that category is SSI, paid to "Individuals who are aged, blind or disabled with little or no income or resources". Ready to cut that?
Interest? Can't cut it.
We're up to about 87% of federal outlays. What's going to be cut?
Transportation? Still waiting for the huge infrastructure spend that President Trump promised.
International Affairs? Sure, zero it out.
Agriculture? Nope, that's going up by a lot to compensate farmers for the damage from tariffs.

24304

See, the "winning" story President Trump tells isn't quite as it appears at his rallies or on Fox News (same thing). We've basically been on one path since the end of the recession. And if we looked at other industrialized countries, their growth, tax receipts and spending trends look almost exactly the same as ours. It's the market that's driving this, not Trump, not Obama, not the Queen of England. Trump is just along for the ride, along with every other President and Prime Minister.

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2018, 07:45 AM
See, the "winning" story President Trump tells isn't quite as it appears at his rallies or on Fox News (same thing). We've basically been on one path since the end of the recession. And if we looked at other industrialized countries, their growth, tax receipts and spending trends look almost exactly the same as ours. It's the market that's driving this, not Trump, not Obama, not the Queen of England. Trump is just along for the ride, along with every other President and Prime Minister.

Thanks, Cris... it's a shame that the Luddites will look at all this, and completely ignore it, preferring to echo Trump's 'pep rally' boasting.

Nobody hopes for a recession... but, realistically, there's bound to be one coming, and fairly soon, if historical precedent means anything. If Trump takes credit for the positive economy right now, will he deserve the blame for the next recession, if it happens on his watch?

Of course not... but the schadenfreude is strong. I'm wondering what the Trumpistas will say, when it happens.

Rick-Mi
10-10-2018, 09:59 AM
Rick trashed me out when I had been on this board for about two days.

Ugly stuff.

Said I was a liar, a Mxxxxxxxer, and several other tasty little insults.

The economic peril he experiences as a citizen of Michigan couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

I've got no animosity toward you personally, if we have major disagreements, it's worldview based.

I guess you found out quickly what we all know, if you don't have thick skin, better not go below deck.

As for economic peril in Michigan, some of us have empathy for others even when we are thriving. MAGA voters want to see EVERYONE have the opportunity to succeed, even those who vote against the principles that made America great and philosophy which facilitates that.

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2018, 10:02 AM
MAGA voters want to see EVERYONE have the opportunity to succeed...

I'm sure they do.

MAGA political leaders, however, are really only interested in seeing to it that the wealthy and powerful are the ones to succeed. Why else would the Trump tax cut be a give-away to the top 1%?

Here's a hint: 'MAGA' voters are getting played like chumps.

Rick-Mi
10-10-2018, 10:36 AM
Here's the quarterly percentage change in spending and taxes. Where is the spending problem? And if there is one, why haven't the Tea Party and President Trump turned that around? Why did he sign the last spending bill after saying he'd never sign one like it again? RINOs? Name one whose left in either house, in matters of the budget.

Where is the spending problem???
First of all, if you don't think we have a spending problem, there is no point in any discussion, that philosophy must simply be voted out or our ship will ultimately be on the rocks as a country.

However, thank you for inadvertently supporting my point, the spending problem is with RINOs and democrats, not true conservatives.

Let's look at the massive 1.3 trillion dollar, 2018 Omnibus spending boondoggle as an example:

In this travesty of a budget, many more democrats supported it in the senate than republicans. 39 democrats supported this monstrosity while only 25 senate republicans supported the massive spending bill. Only 8 democrats voted no, while 23 republicans voted against, with several abstaining.

This points to one undeniable fact, our spending problem is the result of too many democrats and RINOs in congress and the ONLY solution is more genuine conservatives!

Tom Montgomery
10-10-2018, 10:47 AM
Poll: Kavanaugh confirmation has energized Democrats more than Republicans. (https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/10/poll-kavanaugh-midterms-885940)

Chris Smith porter maine
10-10-2018, 10:53 AM
I thought this was going to be a red Sox thread

Rick-Mi
10-10-2018, 11:15 AM
Poll: Kavanaugh confirmation has energized Democrats more than Republicans. (https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/10/poll-kavanaugh-midterms-885940)

Who do you believe Tom, Politico or NPR?

Poll: Amid Kavanaugh Confirmation Battle, Democratic Enthusiasm Edge Evaporates

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/03/654015874/poll-amid-kavanaugh-confirmation-battle-democratic-enthusiasm-edge-evaporates

Rick-Mi
10-10-2018, 11:18 AM
Hello Norman, opportunity abounds for all in this Trump economy.

A smart guy like you should be killing it!

Tom Montgomery
10-10-2018, 11:38 AM
I believe the truth lies somewhere in between. Which is not good news for the reds.

But even if the truth lies closer to the NPR numbers... I would not mind at all if Democratic candidates won by 2 percentage point margins.

C. Ross
10-10-2018, 11:43 AM
Where is the spending problem???
First of all, if you don't think we have a spending problem, there is no point in any discussion, that philosophy must simply be voted out or our ship will ultimately be on the rocks as a country.

However, thank you for inadvertently supporting my point, the spending problem is with RINOs and democrats, not true conservatives.

Let's look at the massive 1.3 trillion dollar, 2018 Omnibus spending boondoggle as an example:

In this travesty of a budget, many more democrats supported it in the senate than republicans. 39 democrats supported this monstrosity while only 25 senate republicans supported the massive spending bill. Only 8 democrats voted no, while 23 republicans voted against, with several abstaining.

This points to one undeniable fact, our spending problem is the result of too many democrats and RINOs in congress and the ONLY solution is more genuine conservatives!

Oh, I think there’s a spending problem. I am aware it has worsened under President Trump, with assistance from Speaker Ryan and Majority Leader McConnell.

I was interested in your opinion of exactly what the spending problem is and what you’d do about it.

As for why the Omnibus bill was assembled and how it passed, I don’t think your narrative holds water. Here’s how it passed the House.


The House’s early Friday morning passage of a bill to reopen government after a brief shutdown was not your typical budget deal vote.
Unlike similar measures Congress has passed in recent years to lift sequestration spending caps and suspend the debt ceiling, this one drew a limited amount of Republican opposition and minimal Democratic support.
Typically it’s just the opposite. A sizable number of House Republicans, usually a third to a half of the conference, would vote against such a deal. And the vast majority of Democrats would normally support it.
But only 29 percent of House Republicans voted against the budget deal Friday that hitched a ride on a six-week stopgap funding measure. And 62 percent of House Democrats voted against it.
“I see Republicans producing a bigger number than we have on big agreements traditionally, especially since 2010 taking the majority,” Chief Deputy Whip Patrick T. McHenry (https://media.cq.com/members/20358?rel=memberLink), R-N.C., said. “I feel like this is a bold move, and the difference maker is the White House and the president”.

https://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/house-members-voted-leadership-budget-deal

As for the rest, you want to comment on tax revenues, GDP, or any of the other things President Trump is taking credit for? The evidence shows that nothing has happened so far in his 20 month administration other than continuation of trends. I will grant that he’s a very lucky man to have been elected in prosperous times!

Rick-Mi
10-10-2018, 12:05 PM
Mr Ross, thank you for agreeing by default with my inarguable assessment of Omnibus spending bill in regard to the senate.

However, deflecting to the House side of the equation doesn't get any better when it comes to defending big spending democrats and RINOs and once again you support my contention that in order to get a handle on spending, we must elect more genuine conservatives.

The Freedom Caucus strongly opposed this monstrosity and voted accordingly!

House Omnibus VOTE BREAKDOWN:
GOP: Yea-150 // Nay-95
DEM: Yea-166 // Nay-18
TOTAL: Yea-316 // Nay-113

For all with eyes to see, those numbers speak loudly for themselves!

C. Ross
10-10-2018, 12:14 PM
If I were in Congress I would have voted against the Omnibus bill too.

But Dude, this bill was written by the Speaker’s office, the Majority Leader’s Office, and OMB Director Mulvaney. This was Trump’s party, Trump’s bill. RINOs and Democrats had nothing to do with writing this bill.

Who cares what the final votes were? Who wrote it: your guys.

So what would you do about it? Look at where we spend money. Where would you cut? Where would the Freedom Caucus cut?

George Jung
10-10-2018, 12:14 PM
Rick, yer a funny (and obstinate) guy - declaring victory where none exists, claiming support where there's criticism.

Osborne Russell
10-10-2018, 12:30 PM
Globalism is a large topic and often not well defined. In the context of my reference it's two faceted, a global elite who are striving to create centralized power and high level business forces within the United States that go to great length to promote profit over any other interest. Politicians are a key tool of the globalists by their easy corruptibility, compounded by their plain stupidity.

Neither China nor Mexico rose to manufacturing prominence on their own, they weren't even on the scale until completely propped up and created by globalist interests. This was a decision by global elite power brokers starting around the time of Nixon, having nothing to do with these countries rising on their own.

I was with you right up to that last. First, of course investors create supply, and they create demand, and cash in both ways. It's what they do. But a lot of the profit comes from exploiting the people of other nations, which in turn means, they're not doing nothing. They're working like slaves. They are not the enemy. They are fellow victims of the same exploitation.


American industrialists were quick to climb on board to take advantage of slave labor and avoid ever restrictive environmental regulations in the US.

Thus, we experienced crooked and stupid politicians that sold out the American middle class to the global elite profit brokers and the people full well knew it. Bush 1, Clinton, Bush II, Obama and a large contingent of congress undermined the economic base of America and put us on a path to subservience and implosion.

Pretty much. Subservient to whom? Not to Mexico and China, but to the elites that oppress them and us too. Trump doesn't go after them, he goes after Mexico and China. This is a huge flaw in "America First". The people of other countries are potential allies capable of great strength. There's nothing to be gained, that I can see, by antagonizing them.


A certain segment of our population totally gets it and they FINALLY have a champion who truly has their back!

They've made a reasonable diagnosis. But they've chosen quack remedies and a huckster to administer them.

Rick-Mi
10-10-2018, 12:38 PM
I was interested in your opinion of exactly what the spending problem is and what you’d do about it.

With a bachelor degree in business administration with a major in fiance and minor in economics, I feel confident in assessing this problem.

There are three reasons why even with genuine conservatives in leadership position, why straight out budget cuts are out of the question.

1 - The percentage of discretionary spending in the overall budget is too small.
2 - With the left oriented media and great number of Americans with a dependent mentality, it's politically inconceivable to make the kind of cuts required outright to return our country to financial sanity. 24/7 shrieking in the media would result in representatives who enacted such measures to be quickly voted out of office.
3 - Rapid budget cutting measures would constrict the velocity of money and cause a deep depression.

Given those three truths, there is a solution under the capable leadership of Donald J Trump, if we can accomplish a tall (improbable) task of getting a handle on congress, particularly in leadership. It's nice that globalist RINO Paul Ryan is on his way out, so there is some hope for the House republican side. But, with McConnell, Schumer and Pelosi looking like they're going nowhere, the probabilities aren't bright for enough genuine conservatives to do the job.

Trump does hold the keys, but he can't do it on his own and the prospects for the kind of change required in congress are grim.

Osborne Russell
10-10-2018, 12:47 PM
Amen brother!


Osborne,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. There are huge gaps and I warned readers in advance there would be. That was just 'winging it' off the cuff in an abbreviated form for the sake of discussion.

Any time. Thanks for your thoughtful attention. Now about those gaps . . .

There is one big gap MAGA that I see. The argument of the modern right -- Tea Party and after, let's say -- has given up exactly that which makes them different from traditional American conservatives, AKA paleo-conservatives. Makes sense, that's the point, to be different. They opposed the policies but defended the machinery. The modern right attacks the machinery in order to oppose the policies.

MAGA says: all issues having been settled by the genius of the founding fathers, reflected in the Constitution, things were great until something came along. OK, let's just arbitrarily say the Civil War. Literally a war between Americans about a certain concept of states' rights (setting aside the issue of slavery). Produced the 14th Amendment greatly increasing the relative power of the federal government. Then came anti-trust, labor laws, votes for women, the New Deal . . . right on down to affirmative action, abortion and globalism.

The flaw in this is that things were not great. If they were great, it was an interlude. The founding fathers did what they could. They wrote the Constitution to take power away from the states . . . just not all of it. Then they put in various mechanisms to limit and check the power of the federal government. The two bigs are enumerated powers and the Bill of Rights. BUT the 14th Amendment means the federal government is the guarantor of the Bill of Rights as against the states. That is the source of the greatly increased power of the feds post-Civil War. The one and only way you could change that would be to repeal the 14th Amendment. In modern political terms, if your platform is MAGA, you have to specify which was great, pre- or post-14th Amendment. Otherwise, no one knows what you're talking about.

The lack of that specification is a huge gap, almost to big to call a gap. Like a calendar that only has November and December. You could call the missing 10 months a gap.

It shows up in the modern right's program for the Supreme Court. If there's going to be a 14th Amendment, and a Judicial Branch, the Supreme Court must from time to time strike down state laws. See, e.g. Griswold v. Connecticut (birth control). The 5th Amendment has provided the same, as regards the Feds, so that part anyway must be part of "the "great that shall be again". Is your argument that it should not have been extended over the states? So the states can do what the Bill of Rights forbids the Feds to do? Violate the Bill of Rights? Wars have consequences, one might say.

In any case, the backdrop is, the Supreme Court and the 5th and 14th Amendments. Along comes the modern right and says hooray, we got Justice Roberts, he's a conservative! Then he upholds Obama care. Is that conservative? Yes, following the law is conservative. But it's a liberal policy, doesn't that make Roberts a liberal? No, it doesn't. Don't be surprised when something similar happens with Kavanaugh.

So you continue to nominate people you expect to rule according to policy, rather than the law, which is the very thing you claim is wrong. Which is absurd, because it's part of what was great all along, and you want to make it great again by ending it. And this applies to your platform generally, you want to tear down the machinery that has produced results you don't like -- I don't like many of them myself -- so that the machinery can work. But the machinery can't work if it's tore down; OTOH if wasn't capable of the desired performance, it wasn't great. Again and again, we return to "great again" -- what does it mean?

johnw
10-10-2018, 01:05 PM
First of all, ambassadors outside of major powers are nothing except figureheads, totally powerless and nothing more than window dressing.

Aside from that, I completely disagree with your assessment. Under Trump, America is now re-assuming it's leadership position in the world!

From inducing deadbeat NATO countries to finally cough up their fair share, to renegotiated trade agreements, progress on a nuclear treaty with NK, scrapping one of the worst agreements in history with Iran to no longer being the 'sucker at the table' in the Paris Climate Accord, President Trump is calling the shots around the world and putting the United States back into the leadership role where we belong.





.
Well, it appears you have no idea how our embassies work, no idea how our alliances work, and boundless optimism about subjects on which you know very little.

You'll find some useful information here: https://booksellersvsbestsellers.blogspot.com/2017/11/how-trump-is-destroying-american-power.html

David G
10-10-2018, 01:18 PM
Not for the first time in listening to RWW's... I find myself pondering the phrase: 'knows just enough to be dangerous'.

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2018, 01:19 PM
.
This points to one undeniable fact, our spending problem is the result of too many democrats and RINOs in congress and the ONLY solution is more genuine conservatives!

Is Trump a 'genuine conservative'? :):)

Rick-Mi
10-10-2018, 01:56 PM
Is Trump a 'genuine conservative'? :):)


President Trump doesn't fit in either party establishment mold, which is one of the factors that makes him so appealing!

Although having an R after his name, he is neither republican or democrat and has successfully defeated both establishment parties in the face of fierce opposition.

Trump is unique in the fact that he is socially liberal in many ways, illustrated by the fact that he has worked marvelously with gays his entire adult life. He also doesn't have a racist bone in his body and is working overtime to give our African American brothers and sisters a shot at the dream, as opposed to democrats who talk a big game during election season, but have left them behind where the rubber meets the road.

Conservative wise, our president respects the constitution as it is written as can be seen by his two Supreme Court placements. Trump is fiscally conservative, but is constrained by democrats and republicans in congress who threaten to spend our country into the financial abyss.

Despite the perception of some, President Trump is not a dictator and is forced to deal with spending boondoggles as they are presented to him under out system of government. Let Trump construct the budget and our fiscal and debt problems would be solved in a manageable number of years.

I've studied Donald J Trump's life carefully and understand his method of operation and thus his plan, to grow our way out of this mess. The problem is, it can't be done with the current big spending RINOs and democrats dominating congress, we need more genuine conservatives in leadership and across the board.

Rick-Mi
10-10-2018, 02:15 PM
Rick, yer a funny (and obstinate) guy - declaring victory where none exists, claiming support where there's criticism.

George, its pretty tough to argue that there isn't a lot of winning going on with Trump calling the shots around the world and republicans controlling every branch of government, including originalists on the Supreme Court, likely for the next couple generations.

That being said, we do have some major underlying problems that must be addressed if this country is to avert financial shipwreck.

Establishment republicans and democrats arguing here about who is more fiscally irresponsible is like a patient with cardiovascular disease and hypertension arguing over which is worse, fried foods or donuts and making the case why more of one or the other should be increased in our national diet!

The truth is, genuine conservationism that is directly in line with the Trump philosophy is the greens, raw food and medication required to avert a catastrophe!

The problem is, the masses don't want to make the lifestyle changes required and we are headed toward the inevitable, the only question being....when?

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2018, 02:40 PM
.
Trump is unique in the fact that he is socially liberal in many ways, illustrated by the fact that he has worked marvelously with gays his entire adult life. He also doesn't have a racist bone in his body and is working overtime to give our African American brothers and sisters a shot at the dream, as opposed to democrats who talk a big game during election season, but have left them behind where the rubber meets the road.

What, exactly, has Trump done to 'give our African American brothers and sisters a shot at the dream"?

Please be specific.


Conservative wise, our president respects the constitution as it is written as can be seen by his two Supreme Court placements.

"As it is written" ?

Show me where, in the Constitution, that corporations have the same rights as citizens (referring, of course, to Citizens United)


Trump is fiscally conservative, but is constrained by democrats and republicans in congress who threaten to spend our country into the financial abyss.

What President signed the latest tax cut, financed by DEBT, and giving the wealthy a huge tax break, into law?


Despite the perception of some, President Trump is not a dictator and is forced to deal with spending boondoggles as they are presented to him under out system of government. Let Trump construct the budget and our fiscal and debt problems would be solved in a manageable number of years.

Who FORCED Trump to sign that tax cut?


I've studied Donald J Trump's life carefully and understand his method of operation and thus his plan, to grow our way out of this mess. The problem is, it can't be done with the current big spending RINOs and democrats dominating congress, we need more genuine conservatives in leadership and across the board.

Yeah, sure. Too bad that you seem to prefer to ignore a proven historical fact: Democrats are VASTLY better stewards of the economy, than Republicans.... and have been so, for the past eight decades.



Personal disposable income has grown nearly 6 times more under Democratic presidents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_%28United_States%29)
Gross Domestic Product (GDP) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product) has grown 7 times more under Democratic presidents
Corporate profits have grown over 16% more per year under Democratic presidents (they actually declined under Republicans by an average of 4.53%/year)
Average annual compound return on the stock market has been 18 times greater under Democratic presidents (If you invested $100k for 40 years of Republican administrations you had $126k at the end, if you invested $100k for 40 years of Democrat administrations you had $3.9M at the end)
Republican presidents added 2.5 times more to the national debt than Democratic presidents
The two times the economy steered into the ditch (Great Depression and Great Recession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession)) were during Republican, laissez faire administrations

So, tell me again about the economy.... I need a good laugh.

George Jung
10-10-2018, 03:13 PM
You're a 'good talker', Rick - but I'm not buying what you're selling. C. Ross et al have nicely rebutted your argument.

Jim Bow
10-10-2018, 03:15 PM
There used to be a newspaper in Germany called "Das Reich" which trumpeted all the winning. It folded in 1945 when the publisher committed suicide.

oznabrag
10-10-2018, 03:18 PM
President Trump doesn't fit in either party establishment mold, which is one of the factors that makes him so appealing!


Really?

Trump is racist, sexist, authoritarian and completely corrupt.

Sounds 100% 'Republican', to me.

oznabrag
10-10-2018, 03:23 PM
"As it is written" ?

Show me where, in the Constitution, that corporations have the same rights as citizens (referring, of course, to Citizens United)





And when you're done with that (as if) please show me where the Constitution specifies that the Senate can refuse to hear the president's nomination for SCOTUS on a whim.


Then tell me why it is that you are OK with the 'Republican' Party devolving into the criminal gang they have become.


https://media1.tenor.com/images/d060a4a39686f19b593748647aee4262/tenor.gif?itemid=4138868

Sky Blue
10-10-2018, 03:30 PM
Trump is doing beautifully.

C. Ross
10-10-2018, 03:34 PM
With a bachelor degree in business administration with a major in fiance and minor in economics, I feel confident in assessing this problem.

There are three reasons why even with genuine conservatives in leadership position, why straight out budget cuts are out of the question.

1 - The percentage of discretionary spending in the overall budget is too small.
2 - With the left oriented media and great number of Americans with a dependent mentality, it's politically inconceivable to make the kind of cuts required outright to return our country to financial sanity. 24/7 shrieking in the media would result in representatives who enacted such measures to be quickly voted out of office.
3 - Rapid budget cutting measures would constrict the velocity of money and cause a deep depression.

Given those three truths, there is a solution under the capable leadership of Donald J Trump, if we can accomplish a tall (improbable) task of getting a handle on congress, particularly in leadership. It's nice that globalist RINO Paul Ryan is on his way out, so there is some hope for the House republican side. But, with McConnell, Schumer and Pelosi looking like they're going nowhere, the probabilities aren't bright for enough genuine conservatives to do the job.

Trump does hold the keys, but he can't do it on his own and the prospects for the kind of change required in congress are grim.

Ill see your education and raise you with a BS degree in economics and an MBA. And I worked on the House Budget Committee Republican staff from 1982-1986.

I hear the political rant. Amused by it.

But tell me again what changes will be made if not in discretionary spending. I put the data in post #86. What will be cut under the "capable leadership of Donald J Trump"? And what additional will be cut to allow for the increases in defense spending, The Wall, and massive infrastructure increases he promised? What would a "real conservative" do?

The Freedom Caucus doesn't have a website. They don't issue position papers. They have a Facebook page. https://m.facebook.com/freedomcaucus/. I get that they're against everything - what are they for, what would they do?

I think Speaker Boehner has their number, and perhaps yours:


On October 30, 2017, Vanity Fair (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity_Fair_(magazine)) published an interview with former Speaker Boehner (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boehner), who said of the Freedom Caucus: "They can’t tell you what they’re for. They can tell you everything they’re against. They’re anarchists. They want total chaos. Tear it all down and start over. That’s where their mindset is."

oznabrag
10-10-2018, 03:37 PM
Trump is doing beautifully.

Well sure, if you're a racist, misogynist, xenophobic, white-supremacist idolator of authoritarian despots.

Other than that, not so much.

Tom Montgomery
10-10-2018, 03:43 PM
Trump is doing beautifully.

Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk....

C. Ross
10-10-2018, 04:14 PM
Since some think President Trump gets credit for everything that happens under his Presidency, he gets to own today too.

Dow sinks more than 800 points as investors are spooked by rising rates - The Washington Post
https://apple.news/ALEJU1GQ5SUedKrKChlYDtw

Bob Adams
10-10-2018, 04:23 PM
Since some think President Trump gets credit for everything that happens under his Presidency, he gets to own today too.

Dow sinks more than 800 points as investors are spooked by rising rates - The Washington Post
https://apple.news/ALEJU1GQ5SUedKrKChlYDtw

It's risen so high so fast a correction is no surprise.

C. Ross
10-10-2018, 04:28 PM
It's risen so high so fast a correction is no surprise.

Absolutely.

But our President regularly takes personal credit for the stock market.

Not sure he's going to accept any responsibility for anything bad that happens under his administration. We'll see.

PeterSibley
10-10-2018, 04:59 PM
Well sure, if you're a racist, misogynist, xenophobic, white-supremacist idolator of authoritarian despots.

Other than that, not so much.

You have that right. The perfect "leader" for a peculiar type of American.

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2018, 05:55 PM
Absolutely.

But our President regularly takes personal credit for the stock market.

Of course he does.... when it's rising....

When it falls, it's someone else's fault. Today, he's blaming the Fed.

Sky Blue
10-10-2018, 06:06 PM
Absolutely.

But our President regularly takes personal credit for the stock market.

Not sure he's going to accept any responsibility for anything bad that happens under his administration. We'll see.

Cris, you're all over the place. You're arguing elsewhere that Trump deserves little credit for a roaring economy but somehow he's responsible for a one-day sell off.

A downturn in housing may soon become a drag on the overall market while tech may experience a pull back. Neither would necessarily be a bad thing, on balance. Corrections are welcome.

John Smith
10-10-2018, 06:09 PM
Just please let me know when we've succeeded in making America great again.

I'm not sure what it looks like.

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2018, 06:10 PM
Cris, you're all over the place. You're arguing elsewhere that Trump deserves little credit for a roaring economy but somehow he's responsible for a one-day sell off...

Cris said, or implied, no such thing. He was merely hypothesizing whether Trump WOULD accept responsibility for anything, should something negative happen that could be attributed to him.

George Jung
10-10-2018, 06:13 PM
Kablooie knows. Facts don’t matter to that one.

Sky Blue
10-10-2018, 06:13 PM
Cris said, or implied, no such thing. He was merely hypothesizing whether Trump WOULD accept responsibility for anything, should something negative happen that could be attributed to him.

How absurd. Like any President would come out and take personal responsibility for a one-day sell-off.

Your remarks don't help. The whole notion is silly.

C. Ross
10-10-2018, 06:16 PM
Cris, you're all over the place. You're arguing elsewhere that Trump deserves little credit for a roaring economy but somehow he's responsible for a one-day sell off.

A downturn in housing may soon become a drag on the overall market while tech may experience a pull back. Neither would necessarily be a bad thing, on balance. Corrections are welcome.

Oh please. I'm steady as a rock.

Trump, like all Presidents, deserves very little credit for the economy. I am clearly being sarcastic in suggesting that if Trump wants all the credit he gets to own the bad stuff. Norm finishes it off by pointing out that the President is, indeed, blaming someone else for the bad stuff. See how magnificently he does it?

Here, let's annotate this thread:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/02/05/trump-stock-market-credit/308627002/

http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/07/trump-needs-stop-taking-credit-stock-markets-activity/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/10/10/donald-trump-blames-crazy-fed-major-stock-market-drop/1594412002/

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2018, 06:17 PM
How absurd. Like any President would come out and take personal responsibility for a one-day sell-off.


Once again, NO ONE is suggesting that... except for you, and yes, it's indeed silly.

Sky Blue
10-10-2018, 06:18 PM
Just please let me know when we've succeeded in making America great again.

I'm not sure what it looks like.

It seems that you have sufficient leisure at least to comment here regularly. On balance, things are probably pretty great as they are. You probably aren't the intended audience for Trump's campaign slogan (the very same exploited first by Reagan, btw, but now Trump has made a brand out of it).

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2018, 06:22 PM
You probably aren't the intended audience for Trump's campaign slogan....

The validity of the sentiment of the slogan depends on who it's intended for?

REALLY?

:d:d:d

C. Ross
10-10-2018, 06:27 PM
It seems that you have sufficient leisure at least to comment here regularly. On balance, things are probably pretty great as they are. You probably aren't the intended audience for Trump's campaign slogan (the very same exploited first by Reagan, btw, but now Trump has made a brand out of it).

Wait, we're already great???

Is the "American carnage" over?
Mothers and children no longer trapped in poverty in inner cities?
Rusted out factories open?
Educstion system working?
Crime and gangs and drugs stopped?

Promises made. Which ones have been kept, if we're already great?



But for too many of our citizens, a different reality exists: Mothers and children trapped in poverty in our inner cities; rusted-out factories scattered like tombstones across the landscape of our nation; an education system, flush with cash, but which leaves our young and beautiful students deprived of knowledge; and the crime and gangs and drugs that have stolen too many lives and robbed our country of so much unrealized potential.
This American carnage stops right here and stops right now.
We are one nation – and their pain is our pain. Their dreams are our dreams; and their success will be our success. We share one heart, one home, and one glorious destiny.
The oath of office I take today is an oath of allegiance to all Americans.
For many decades, we’ve enriched foreign industry at the expense of American industry;
Subsidized the armies of other countries while allowing for the very sad depletion of our military;
We’ve defended other nation’s borders while refusing to defend our own;
And spent trillions of dollars overseas while America’s infrastructure has fallen into disrepair and decay.
We’ve made other countries rich while the wealth, strength, and confidence of our country has disappeared over the horizon.
One by one, the factories shuttered and left our shores, with not even a thought about the millions upon millions of American workers left behind.
The wealth of our middle class has been ripped from their homes and then redistributed across the entire world.
But that is the past. And now we are looking only to the future.

Sky Blue
10-10-2018, 06:36 PM
Trump deserves very little credit for the economy

It doesn't matter whether he "deserves" anything. What matters is what voters are willing to attribute to him. He's going to benefit from this economy, as all sitting Presidents do, whether Democrat or Republican, when an economy is roaring in the middle of a term.

It's an argument that isn't really worth anything.

Sky Blue
10-10-2018, 06:41 PM
The validity of the sentiment of the slogan depends on who it's intended for?

REALLY?

:d:d:d

If things are pretty good for him, the slogan probably doesn't resonate like it would for other Americans. Hence, the snark.

Sentiment is sentiment. The relative "validity" of the sentiment is debatable.

C. Ross
10-10-2018, 07:38 PM
I didn't realize Trumpworld is entirely detached from facts.

It's all about "sentiment".

But how's he doing on reversing "American carnage" except making his supporters feel good about it?

oznabrag
10-10-2018, 08:22 PM
Well sure, if you're a racist, misogynist, xenophobic, white-supremacist idolator of authoritarian despots.

Other than that, not so much.

Notice that His Fetid Lordship has no response?

David G
10-10-2018, 08:33 PM
Absolutely.

But our President regularly takes personal credit for the stock market.

Not sure he's going to accept any responsibility for anything bad that happens under his administration. We'll see.

Wouldn't it be lovely to see some logical consistency...

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43497199_1932110030160017_5683586263530078208_n.jp g?_nc_cat=1&oh=3e240bee8dadefa0832b7f780f11bbba&oe=5C60BB6E

David G
10-10-2018, 08:37 PM
You mean THIS kind of winning?

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43738024_1891740497548302_4283091251865059328_n.jp g?_nc_cat=1&oh=9e720fdfab3d35c5234ef378d757092f&oe=5C441BFA

David G
10-10-2018, 08:42 PM
Or do you mean the kind of winning that is so robust that your candidates have to gin up fake endorsements and take money from hate groups? That sorta winning?

https://coloradopolitics.com/phony-endorsement-neville-hickenlooper/

S/V Laura Ellen
10-10-2018, 08:52 PM
Got it. Only Democrats do things wrong. Republicans are perfect. Golly, who knew?

The Trump supporters seem to like it when Republican do things wrong.

David G
10-10-2018, 09:31 PM
The thing that's really exhausting is keeping track of all the lies coming from today's Republicans. They'll even resort to libel to get elected --

http://www.carrollcountytimes.com/sd-le-duncan-hunter-attack-ad-campa-najjar-utak-20181005-story.html

David G
10-10-2018, 09:34 PM
I guess to some fools... installing a crook in the White House is 'winning' --

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/08/the-president-is-a-crook/568123/

David G
10-10-2018, 09:35 PM
Apparently... 'winning' means By Any Means. Including purging the voter roles in your state of those who might vote against you --

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/suppression-critics-charge-georgia-gop-gov-candidate-purging-voters-election-n918761?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma

David G
10-10-2018, 09:38 PM
It seems, that for some, 'winning' means having someone to supply soothing plausible lies that fit your own brand of bigotry and ignorance --

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43569373_1907653712648164_8821975513040945152_n.jp g?_nc_cat=1&oh=8f5bb751866543970d278f104c11d497&oe=5C159654

Sky Blue
10-10-2018, 09:42 PM
People can post all the silly drivel they like; bottom line is that Trump is winning.

If there is one thing he was wrong about, it was that we'd get tired of winning. Sorry Mr. President. Still not tired.

David G
10-10-2018, 10:22 PM
Oh... I know... the kind of winning that emboldens racists like this one --

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/white-parents-black-babysitter-reported-stranger-police-visit-153231257--abc-news-topstories.html


White parents with black babysitter who was reported by stranger say police visit 'scared' their kid

Sky Blue
10-10-2018, 10:58 PM
For obvious reasons, no one is impressed with elderly, leisured white men pointing fingers and screaming racism. It buys them nothing but scorn.

PeterSibley
10-11-2018, 12:48 AM
It doesn't appear that the population agree with you. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

C. Ross
10-11-2018, 01:14 AM
People can post all the silly drivel they like; bottom line is that Trump is winning.

If there is one thing he was wrong about, it was that we'd get tired of winning. Sorry Mr. President. Still not tired.

One must admit that judgement about "winning" is rather subjective.

President Trump's approval ratings continue at historic lows.

We'll see how the midterms go.

I think he'll be re-elected given the impotence of the Democratic Party and the indifference the American public gives to things like the President's habitual lying, self-aggrandizement, apparent tax fraud and lies about his Origin Story of Self-Made Man, sexual crudity and potentially predation, and similar matters. Things which are not "winning" and any one of which would have sunk any previous President. The wild card is the Mueller investigation, which continues quietly without attack from the President for weeks.

C. Ross
10-11-2018, 01:17 AM
For obvious reasons, no one is impressed with elderly, leisured white men pointing fingers and screaming racism. It buys them nothing but scorn.

I'm neither elderly nor leisured, I never scream, and my mother taught me not to point, but my friends who are African-American and Asian actually appreciate it when I acknowledge the racism they encounter. They also appreciate acknowledgement that things have worsened under Presdient Trump, and that he does not speak for them nor support them.

Gerarddm
10-11-2018, 01:54 AM
Vote as my signature and will be well. Don't, and it won't.

downthecreek
10-11-2018, 03:21 AM
Putin; Pinochet; Saddam; Mugabe; Franco; Assad; Hitler; Kim Jong-Un, Madoff; Berlusconi; Milosevic; Capone.....

Yee-hah!! Nothing like a winner!

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2018, 03:46 AM
I'm neither elderly nor leisured, I never scream, and my mother taught me not to point, but my friends who are African-American and Asian actually appreciate it when I acknowledge the racism they encounter. They also appreciate acknowledgement that things have worsened under President Trump, and that he does not speak for them nor support them.
The same here. I actually work daily, shoulder to shoulder, with African Americans, Latino Americans and people of other American minority groups. Does Sky Blue?

His/her/its spittle flecked raving is exhausting.

Sky Blue
10-11-2018, 08:26 AM
I stand corrected, Cris. Thank you for your anecdote.

It truly is amazing. Though this Forum appears to be populated almost exclusively with older, white men, there apparently is not a single racist among them (so long as they publicly identify as Democrat, that is). Indeed, in light of the utter the lack of diversity, it might be the world's formost collection of such men. It is pure enough that fingerpointing occurs with abandon; the safe space to end all safe spaces.

I don't buy it for a moment. I don't think "real world" would either.

Sky Blue
10-11-2018, 08:30 AM
I mean, think of it. You can point fingers in an online community, build consensus on that, and boom.

Your own bona fides have been established, while the "bad guys" are identified.

Problem solved! Me pure, you bad! All with a couple of keystrokes and clicks! Perfect!

David G
10-11-2018, 08:39 AM
All this 'winning'... or the false belief that there is winning happening stems from a form of laziness - according to neuroscientists --

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/10/neuroscientist-explains-evangelicals-wired-believe-trumps-lies/

David G
10-11-2018, 11:17 AM
So much winning, we can barely stand it.

AND... we seem to be poised for more much like it --

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43614831_2219410178131001_7496825102604959744_n.jp g?_nc_cat=1&oh=144dd077653dd600003357d4438eefb5&oe=5C45B706

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2018, 11:26 AM
Ford Motor Company says Trump's trade war has cost it $1 Billion in profits so far. The CEO says the tariffs could do even “more damage (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-26/ford-ceo-says-trump-s-metals-tariffs-took-1-billion-in-profits)” if the disputes aren’t resolved quickly.

C. Ross
10-11-2018, 11:29 AM
I mean, think of it. You can point fingers in an online community, build consensus on that, and boom.

Your own bona fides have been established, while the "bad guys" are identified.

Problem solved! Me pure, you bad! All with a couple of keystrokes and clicks! Perfect!

I suppose the alternative is silence.

Or in Trumpworld, raging on and dogwhistling about NFL players kneeling and #himtoo.

I guess I’ll accept the virtue signaling risk, and say racism and sexism is bad.

David G
10-11-2018, 11:37 AM
In Trumpworld... 'winning' is getting people to believe your lies --

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43687239_1403588323107014_8767309113462882304_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&oh=1bfdbdbb4f9b49c10431b27cf448bef1&oe=5C47A515

Canoez
10-11-2018, 11:41 AM
I suppose the alternative is silence.

Or in Trumpworld, raging on and dogwhistling about NFL players kneeling and #himtoo.

I guess I’ll accept the virtue signaling risk, and say racism and sexism is bad.

Kinda like saying Nazi's are bad. I'd add that one.

C. Ross
10-11-2018, 11:49 AM
Kinda like saying Nazi's are bad. I'd add that one.

Seems like tablestakes.

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2018, 11:56 AM
Hitler never really said that. Nor did Goebbels.

In Mein Kampf Hitler accused the jews of utilizing the "big lie" by placing the responsibility of losing WWI on Leudendorff. Goebbles wrote an article accusing the English leadership of routinely employing "the big lie."

That does not alter the fact that the Nazis used the big lie to demonize European Jewry.

David G
10-11-2018, 12:09 PM
Hitler never really said that. Nor did Goebbels.

In Mein Kampf Hitler accused the jews of utilizing the "big lie" by placing the responsibility of losing WWI on Leudendorff. Goebbles wrote an article accusing the English leadership of routinely employing "the big lie."

That does not alter the fact that the Nazis used the big lie to demonize European Jewry.More of a paraphrase than a quote, apparently...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Awr4xJybgr9bx44ArC5XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByN WU4cGh1BGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?qid=20100310092910AACOZuI

David G
10-11-2018, 12:51 PM
It appears that, for some, 'winning' means admitting that Vader IS your father... and your destiny --

https://www.thenation.com/article/donald-trump-is-a-symptom-of-americas-dark-side/


" How did America’s ideals become so twisted? And how do we regain our nobility of purpose? One thing is certain: The current path, the one of ever greater military spending, of border walls and extreme vetting, of vilification of the Other, justified in terms of toughness and “winning,” will lead only to further violence—and darker (k)nights."

William J. Astore is a retired lieutenant colonel (USAF). He has taught at the Air Force Academy and the Naval Postgraduate School, and now teaches history at the Pennsylvania College of Technology.

AndyG
10-11-2018, 03:14 PM
Though this Forum appears to be populated almost exclusively with older, white men, there apparently is not a single racist among them (so long as they publicly identify as Democrat, that is). Indeed, in light of the utter the lack of diversity, it might be the world's formost collection of such men.

I have you on ignore, SB ... but I read this one, because you posted two rants consecutively.

Boating, yachting, dinghy sailing, boat-building, is about privilege. If you need to go sail for your job, that's different. But sailing (or building) for pleasure infers free time. It screams spare cash. Something you want to DO.

Not something you HAVE to do.

I am - therefore - utterly unsurprised that, today, it's an "older white male thing". We see that present here.

Maybe, just maybe, if our institutionalised, racist and sexist societies disappeared, then sailing for pleasure would still be a pleasure for both sexes, all ethnic origins.

That 'people here' are way more inclusive and balanced than you, even though they benefited from 'privilege' (and now argue against social mories of the time when they were younger, white men) tells me more about you than it does about them.

Do you get it, yet?

Don't bother repyling. You're still ignored.

But have a think, maybe?

Andy

George Jung
10-11-2018, 03:40 PM
I dunno..... seems like

https://youtu.be/RfHnzYEHAow

BTW.... one of those characters is kablooie, I'm purty sure...

Sky Blue
10-11-2018, 03:54 PM
I have you on ignore, SB ... but I read this one, because you posted two rants consecutively.

Boating, yachting, dinghy sailing, boat-building, is about privilege. If you need to go sail for your job, that's different. But sailing (or building) for pleasure infers free time. It screams spare cash. Something you want to DO.

Not something you HAVE to do.

I am - therefore - utterly unsurprised that, today, it's an "older white male thing". We see that present here.

Maybe, just maybe, if our institutionalised, racist and sexist societies disappeared, then sailing for pleasure would still be a pleasure for both sexes, all ethnic origins.

That 'people here' are way more inclusive and balanced than you, even though they benefited from 'privilege' (and now argue against social mories of the time when they were younger, white men) tells me more about you than it does about them.

Do you get it, yet?

Don't bother repyling. You're still ignored.

But have a think, maybe?

Andy

Andy, I suspect that you read all of my content. ;)

I'm glad it reaches you. Try not to take it personally. It's billboard stuff. If people want to opt-in, that's up to them.

Elderly white men, leisured and enjoying a living standard unimaginable to their ancestors, popping off on the internet about racism, pointing fingers at other white people (in a forum comprised almost exclusively with white people), is simply insulting. I'm going to call it out. It buys nothing from me. And I suggest that I've thought as much about this issue as anyone, including you.

The fact that you find the content upsetting says something. About you (I suggest). Think about it.

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2018, 04:02 PM
Look up the word "supercilious" and you'll find a link to one of Sky Blue's WBF Bilge posts.

Rick-Mi
10-11-2018, 04:15 PM
Andy, I suspect that you read all of my content. ;)

I'm glad it reaches you. Try not to take it personally. It's billboard stuff. If people want to opt-in, that's up to them.

Elderly white men, leisured and enjoying a living standard unimaginable to their ancestors, popping off on the internet about racism, pointing fingers at other white people (in a forum comprised almost exclusively with white people), is simply insulting. I'm going to call it out. It buys nothing from me. And I suggest that I've thought as much about this issue as anyone, including you.

The fact that you find the content upsetting says something. About you (I suggest). Think about it.

You've got to admit Sky Blue, bilge lefties provides a boatload of entertainment!

But, can you imagine being so intellectually insecure as to wall yourself into an ideological bubble, so that your narrow minded thinking won't be challenged?

Sky Blue
10-11-2018, 04:21 PM
You've got to admit Sky Blue, bilge lefties provides a boatload of entertainment!

But, can you imagine being so intellectually insecure as to wall yourself into an ideological bubble, so that your narrow minded thinking won't be challenged?

It's all about comfort and security. A "safe space."

I personally would be bored coming to a place everyday where my views enjoyed consensus with people parroting the same crap day in and day out, year after year.

So yes, it is entertaining for the dissenter. Mostly fun, too!

C. Ross
10-11-2018, 06:51 PM
Dunno, but I come here partly for interesting exchange of ideas.

Still waiting for Rick-MI to tell us where Real Conservatives are going to reduce federal spending.

I’m afraid I’m going to be left waiting, or instead hear some vague political bravado, like that of an archer without a target.

Rick-Mi
10-11-2018, 09:12 PM
Dunno, but I come here partly for interesting exchange of ideas.

Still waiting for Rick-MI to tell us where Real Conservatives are going to reduce federal spending.



I'm not one to continue ad infinitum, particularly when I clearly illustrated that every point you made supported my original contention about RINOs and democrats.

It's painfully obvious that you have no understanding about the movement toward financial responsibility by representatives illustrated by those in the Freedom Caucus. For crying out loud, a quote of John Boehner of all sources to attack real fiscal conservatives demonstrates that you don't have the slightest grasp on what the Tea Party principles, fiscal responsibility and genuine conservatism stands for!

Without question, by demonstration, you represent fiscal irresponsibility and the status quo which got us in this mess. Someone who claims to be highly educated in financial matters shouldn't have to have it explained to him that this course is unsustainable and that his defense of the one or both sides of the same coin is futility.

The truth is, your big government mentality is part of the problem which must be overcome. The good news on that front is we are showing signs of progress.

Finally, I'm the one who on this thread brought up the problem with discretionary spending cuts as an impossibility to solve the problem by itself with 3 specific points and the implications if that were to be attempted. If you missed it, it's not my problem and I'm not repeating what's already been said.

After those three specific reasons, I alluded to the strategy President Trump is pursuing, which is the only viable approach (albeit a long shot). The only thing that will avoid a painful reset by default is to put a lid on spending growth and grow the economy out of it. Unfortunately, with the current composition of congress and leadership as it stands on both sides of the aisle. it's an impossibility. Every other option from your big government, big spending, establishment perspective is absolutely, 100% doomed to failure with no chance of success. People of your mentality will continue the present course until the point of implosion.

Which once again, brings us back to the original problem of too many RINOs and democrats. You're going to have to research waaaaay beyond Facebook or some simple 'link to think' in order understand how genuine conservatives like Jim Jordan as Speaker, vs a globalist RINO like Paul Ryan or Venezuela style Speaker like Nancy Pelosi would get a handle on our obscene level of spending and waste.

David G
10-11-2018, 11:24 PM
Irony is dead...

PeterSibley
10-11-2018, 11:35 PM
https://sherman.house.gov/sites/sherman.house.gov/files/wysiwyg_uploaded/US-China%20Trade%20Deficit_0.png

C. Ross
10-12-2018, 02:00 AM
I'm not one to continue ad infinitum...

Well....


It's painfully obvious that you have no understanding about the movement toward financial responsibility by representatives illustrated by those in the Freedom Caucus.

I think I understand them. I'm a fiscal conservative, and I'd be interested in ideas they might bring to the table. Alas, the Freedom Caucus is long on words and short on ideas.


Without question, by demonstration, you represent fiscal irresponsibility and the status quo which got us in this mess.

I don't think so.

Specifically, I would favor: 1. A healthcare policy that would reduce growth of healthcare expenses. We have no such thing. 2. Modifications to Social Security which would make it more of an insurance program for those with lower income and less of an entitlement program for those with higher income. 3. Reduction in defense spending. You don't like being a globalist? Stop running a globalist military. 4. Require that states and localities bear more cost of infrastructure programs. 5. Restraint in discretionary spending. 6. Tie taxes to spending. Run balanced budgets or slight surpluses to reduce the cost of borrowing. Make the cost of spending visible. If we are going to spend 19% of GDP instead of 18%, then taxes need to be 19% of GDP. No free lunch, no smoke and mirrors.


Finally, I'm the one who on this thread brought up the problem with discretionary spending cuts as an impossibility to solve the problem by itself with 3 specific points and the implications if that were to be attempted.

Yes you did. And so did I, posting exactly where we spend our money. A nice agreement. You can't cut the deficit without doing something structural.


After those three specific reasons, I alluded to the strategy President Trump is pursuing, which is the only viable approach (albeit a long shot). The only thing that will avoid a painful reset by default is to put a lid on spending growth and grow the economy out of it.

Whoopsie.

See, there were "Freedom Caucus"-like guys around thirty years ago when I worked in Congress. "Freeze spending and grow out of it" is a VERY old and VERY discredited idea.

Freezing discretionary spending? Sure you can do that but we both agree it amounts to nothing.

Freeze defense? Oh no, of course not.

Freeze healthcare? Sure, let's do that! How? Just stop paying doctors and hospitals so much! Well, we did that for about 25 years in a game of chicken - Congress capped Medicare reimbursement rates for next year. Then as we approached the coming year, and it meant that the local small town hospital would see its revenue cut by 10% and go bankrupt, Congress would adjust the "SGR" and we'd spend just like before. There needs to be an actual set of policies to address healthcare cost inflation. We haven't had one in our lifetimes under Democrats or Republicans.

Freeze Social Security? Hell no!!!

Freeze interest payments on the debt? When people learn that means "default" it goes away.

What's left? Income security for the deeply poor and disabled, and discretionary spending.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the Freedom Caucus guys have a secret plan for structural reform of entitlements. What's the plan except to freeze the unfreezable?



Every other option from your big government, big spending, establishment perspective is absolutely, 100% doomed to failure with no chance of success. People of your mentality will continue the present course until the point of implosion.

You sure seem to know a lot about what I think.

I gave six ways I'd reduce the size of government, structurally. I am not a "big government, big spending, establishment perspective" kind of guy. And I'm not a "magical thinking" kind of guy, which is what "Freeze and grow" is all about, and has been, for decades.

You've given me "lid on spending and grow out of it" which in the past has always meant "cut taxes to encourage growth". We've tried that a bunch of times. How did it go?

C. Ross
10-12-2018, 07:12 AM
Here's a professional view from the Congressional Budget Office:

24407

This was produced in December 2016 to help the new Congress wrestle with choices. This is before the tax cut bill in 2017, obviously.

We've consistently taxed less than we've spent. We just took taxes down, so this chart presents an even more complex problem.

But here's the rub: expenses in healthcare and social security are going to increase by a lot, because of demographic changes. They are going to increase by more than inflation, more than even the wildest dream of GDP growth. They are going to crush our children and grandchildren.

Here's how it looks:


Not only are deficits and debt projected to be greater in coming years, but the United States also is on track to have a federal budget that will look very different from budgets of the past. Under current law, in 2026 spending for all federal activities other than the major health care programs and Social Security is projected to account for its smallest share of GDP since 1962. At the same time, revenues would represent a larger percentage of GDP in the future—averaging 18.3 percent of GDP over the 2017–2026 period—than they generally have in the past few decades. Despite those trends, revenues would not keep pace with outlays under current law because the government’s major health care programs (particularly Medicare) and Social Security would absorb a much larger share of the economy’s output in the future than they have in the past.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/114th-congress-2015-2016/reports/52142-budgetoptions.pdf

I'm fully in favor of fiscal discipline. But if you really want to "win" you need to have a "plan" not "fluffy wishes".

Norman Bernstein
10-12-2018, 07:32 AM
In my 67 years of lifetime experience, I think I can safely say that there is NO difference between liberal and conservative politicians, when it comes to spending money: they both are happy and eager to spend, but on different things. Democrats seem to be at least a bit less hypocritical, since they rarely cite 'fiscal conservatism' as one of their founding principles. Conservatives cite 'fiscal conservatism' often... but rarely every find an over priced and under-performing military hardware system they don't like.

The one part of this discussion that interests me most is Social Security. Far too many people don't understand what Social Security really is (an insurance program... it's right in the official name!). It should come as NO surprise that shifting demographics changes the economic balance of the system, requiring adjustments to keep the program solvent... and the wave of baby boomer retirements is one such change.

The problem, however, is one of the easiest government problems to solve; it requires adjustments to the parameters of the system... small adjustments... to keep the program solvent. We could, for example, raise the earnings cap on contributions slightly... reform the rate of cost of living increases a little... increase the retirement age a little bit... all together, small adjustments would solve the problem.

To me, the BEST solution, proposed by an economist a few years back, is brilliantly simple, and virtually painless. This guy suggested the following: that we raise the retirement age by one month, each year, for the next 12 years. So, if the age is 66 now, it would be 66 and one month next year, 66 and two months, the year after that, and so on... until it reaches 67. According to his analysis, doing just this would make SS solvent in perpetuity... and the cost (an increase in the retirement age) corresponds to the plain fact that people are living longer, and remaining healthy longer.

Canoez
10-12-2018, 08:19 AM
To me, the BEST solution, proposed by an economist a few years back, is brilliantly simple, and virtually painless. This guy suggested the following: that we raise the retirement age by one month, each year, for the next 12 years. So, if the age is 66 now, it would be 66 and one month next year, 66 and two months, the year after that, and so on... until it reaches 67. According to his analysis, doing just this would make SS solvent in perpetuity... and the cost (an increase in the retirement age) corresponds to the plain fact that people are living longer, and remaining healthy longer.

You do realize, of course, that for younger people, the retirement age where you can collect full Social Security benefits is already 67, right? (https://www.ssa.gov/planners/retire/agereduction.html)

Norman Bernstein
10-12-2018, 08:35 AM
You do realize, of course, that for younger people, the retirement age where you can collect full Social Security benefits is already 67, right? (https://www.ssa.gov/planners/retire/agereduction.html)

Sorry... you ARE correct, that increase has been planned for a while.

Regardless, it is nonetheless true that a one year increase in the retirement age, staged one month per year over 12 years, would be the LEAST painful way to make the system solvent. I could also back other measures, like a rise in the taxable cap (a slight one), a reduction in the rate of cost-of-living increases (also a small one), and so on.

C. Ross
10-12-2018, 08:47 AM
It's interesting that Rep. Mark Meadows, chair of the Freedom Caucus says we have to go after "entitlement reform". I agree. https://meadows.house.gov/issues/issue/?IssueID=14896

This is real change, not "freeze and hope".

It's also interesting that he does not blame Speaker Ryan for lack of action, since Ryan has long held this position. https://thehill.com/homenews/house/382744-meadows-lack-of-entitlement-reform-not-ryans-fault?amp=1

Then there's the Trumpist view as expressed by Rick-MI: the heroes would get it done if it weren't for the treacherous actions of RINOs and Socialist Democrats. Not governance, but rally applause lines for The Base.

One wonders how the Trumpist gang will keep the wheels on the wagon when we encounter even the slightest ripple of economic challenge.

Norman Bernstein
10-12-2018, 08:55 AM
One wonders how the Trumpist gang will keep the wheels on the wagon when we encounter even the slightest ripple of economic challenge.

Well, that's a no-brainer... they'll blame it all on others.

I certainly don't WANT to see a recession... although, based on historical experience, we're bound to have one sooner or later. If we HAVE to have a recession, I'd find a gold mine of schadenfreude in tagging Trump as the culprit :)

George Jung
10-12-2018, 10:00 AM
Yeah.... except they're very adept at steering criticism away from themselves, and directing it at Dem's.

AndyG
10-12-2018, 12:53 PM
...can you imagine being so intellectually insecure as to wall yourself into an ideological bubble, so that your narrow minded thinking won't be challenged?

Is that directed at me?

I use the ignore function on three people on this forum, because they're trolls with but one blinkered thought: they're here generating nothing but static designed to obscure or misdirect otherwise informative threads.

I hope that's clear?

Andy

David G
10-12-2018, 10:14 PM
Winning is when you feel SO confident in your campaign... that you take out a tv ad physically threatening your opponent in the Penn. governor's race.

Well... when you're a Trumpista, anyway.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/gop-candidate-threatens-pa-governor-im-going-stomp-face-golf-spikes-203326572.html

oznabrag
10-12-2018, 10:46 PM
. . . can you imagine being so intellectually insecure as to wall yourself into an ideological bubble, so that your narrow minded thinking won't be challenged?

No.

I'm sure you could tell us what that is like, though, if only you had the self-awareness required.

David G
10-12-2018, 10:54 PM
I suppose Rick calls THIS winning also --

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43756811_10218433701860207_6236066847620333568_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&oh=23848384ef4ad09a6037735af112c032&oe=5C50ABCD

oznabrag
10-12-2018, 11:50 PM
Republicans are criminals.

Rigadog
10-13-2018, 07:53 AM
The only way Republicans win is if the machines get hacked. And that is a distinct possibility.

LeeG
10-13-2018, 09:10 AM
Yeah.... except they're very adept at steering criticism away from themselves, and directing it at Dem's.

NATO did it, and China.

David G
10-13-2018, 11:47 AM
I'm guessing Rick regards this as just another aspect of 'winning' - racist threats force a black legislator to resign --

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/lessons-threats-drive-black-legislator-100052467.html

David G
10-13-2018, 01:08 PM
I'm sure the victims of the beating from this Right Wing mob are quite exhausted --

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys

David G
10-13-2018, 01:11 PM
Or... perhaps Rick means the sort of winning that involves separating young immigrants from their parents. And then lying about it. Apparently there are even more cases of this than the Trump Administration has previously admitted to --

https://theintercept.com/2018/10/11/trump-family-separation-immigration/

David G
10-13-2018, 01:14 PM
It could be that Rick means 'winning' is lying about which party is the progressive one... by repeatedly and erroneously conflating the Republican party of Lincoln's time with the Republican party of today --

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/article/How-Democrats-and-Republicans-switched-beliefs-9226115.php

David G
10-13-2018, 01:57 PM
Abraham Lincoln said - and I agree wholeheartedly - "I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts."

And yet we have Trump administration consistently withholding the truth, making up convenitent lies instead, a misleading the people.

EXAMPLE -- https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/mnuchin-spins-false-claim-tax-201655363.html

Is that sort of thing what you mean, Rick, by 'winning'?

Asking for a Republic...

David G
10-13-2018, 02:11 PM
Rick? Rick? You there, Rick?

David G
10-13-2018, 08:07 PM
Or maybe Rick was referring to THIS litany of winning --

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43878371_880882102116480_2269003141980618752_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=1&oh=344a09c88921838435c083988bbdd276&oe=5C605C62

David G
10-13-2018, 08:44 PM
I guess this is the sort of Alice In Wonderland mentality it takes to call the Trump administration's performance... 'winning' --

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43951360_2447674718583057_313154775745036288_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=109&oh=d738d2b54c43864d52f32550bec17516&oe=5C4BDA8A

David G
10-14-2018, 01:46 PM
Draketown, GA. April of this year. SO much winning --


http://time.com/5249811/neo-nazis-burn-swastika-georgia/

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43879235_10156683405076192_2448967167945736192_n.j pg?_nc_cat=1&oh=50cac72552d3f5b3db8413a554ffc49c&oe=5C499824

C. Ross
10-15-2018, 07:10 AM
Even more winning.

Trump says he thinks he treated Christine Blasey Ford with respect - CBS News
https://apple.news/AStLJqmStTAmjPp-ahGCSdw

President Trump seemed to show no remorse when asked about Dr. Christine Blasey Ford during an interview with "60 Minutes" that aired Sunday night. "I didn't really make fun of her," Mr. Trump told correspondent Lesley Stahl, "I said the person that we're talking about didn't know the year, the time, the place."Mr. Trump mocked Dr. Ford during a "Make America Great Again" rally earlier this month following Dr. Ford's testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Dr. Ford testified that Brett Kavanaugh, Mr. Trump's Supreme Court nominee, had pinned her on a bed, tried to take off her clothes and covered her mouth in the early 1980s, when the two were teenagers. Kavanaugh has denied Ford's allegations and has since been confirmed to the Supreme Court.
In the "60 Minutes interview," Mr. Trump said he thought Dr. Ford was treated with great respect, including by himself. When pressed on that claim, the president said, "You know what? I'm not gonna get into it because we won. It doesn't matter. We won."

I guess mocking someone counts as respect when you're a p****-grabber. And how you behave doesn't matter if you win.

David G
10-15-2018, 01:00 PM
More winning!

A Republican Senator, in the spirit of Trump's core belief in crony capitalism, seems to have helped a family member win a no-bid, $7million, government construction contract. Based upon their 'minority-owned business' status. Because... and this is rich... of a claimed 1/8 Cherokee tribe status. Which seems to be disputed by the tribe.

https://washingtonpress.com/2018/10/14/the-2-house-republican-was-just-busted-in-nepotistic-7-million-fraud-contract-scandal/

I wonder if they've scheduled the DNA test yet...

Canoez
10-15-2018, 01:06 PM
I think there was a spelling error somewhere in this thread. It's spelled "whining".

David G
10-15-2018, 01:12 PM
More WINNING!!! This time in Texas. This wouldn't have happened, I'm sure, if there had been more guns at the party. Perhaps if the toddlers had been armed?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/four-dead-shootings-one-olds-birthday-party-texas-155117889.html

David G
10-15-2018, 09:23 PM
And not just now... but look at the recent history of Republican 'winning' --

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44067549_2765543226789971_7618651424754237440_n.pn g?_nc_cat=102&oh=d96c16884f71f9bf1a8d62246894e5d8&oe=5C50FFFD

David G
10-15-2018, 09:27 PM
More Trump-style winning. The budget deficit rose 17% for fy 2018 - due mostly to the decreased revenues from his signature 'tax cuts' for the wealthiest. As the WSJ says - a most unusual development during a time of supposed economic robustitude...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-government-debt-rises-17-in-fiscal-2018-1539626598

David G
10-15-2018, 09:48 PM
Say Rick... is THIS the sort of Trump winning you were referring to? Let me know when you're too exhausted...

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43704644_1753291258131949_725494536926658560_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=1&oh=407734bdb39dfa65348c413bca95408b&oe=5C48A349

David G
10-15-2018, 10:01 PM
And HERE'S some winning public policy --

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43788897_2755017334509227_8291025432501813248_n.pn g?_nc_cat=107&oh=71e07fc6c4cd329264f5c00ec62a5e1d&oe=5C547FF6

PeterSibley
10-15-2018, 10:13 PM
GOP Senate Candidate Compares Michelle Obama's Posture to the Chimpanzee from 'Bedtime for Bonzo'
Republicans just can't turn off the racism.



By Matthew Chapman (https://www.alternet.org/authors/matthew-chapman) / AlterNet (https://alternet.org/)
October 15, 2018, 4:02 AM GPrint (https://www.alternet.org/print/election-03918/karin-housley-michelle-obama-bedtime-bonzo)
https://www.alternet.org/election-03918/karin-housley-michelle-obama-bedtime-bonzo
145 COMMENTS (https://www.alternet.org/comments/election-03918/karin-housley-michelle-obama-bedtime-bonzo#disqus_thread)



https://www.alternet.org/sites/default/files/styles/story_image/public/story_images/useiguess.png?itok=8O1t352k


Composite



Minnesota Republican Senate candidate Karin Housley is facing fresh scrutiny for comments she posted to Facebook in 2009, in which she compared former First Lady Michelle Obama to the chimpanzee from the 1951 Ronald Reagan film "Bedtime for Bonzo" following Michelle's meeting with Queen Elizabeth II.
"Michelle is soooo far from cool. Don't we expect our First Ladies to at least stand up straight? (And my dear sister, know the proper etiquette and DO NOT TOUCH THE QUEEN!)," Housley wrote in postings (https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5bc10538e4b0bd9ed55a2663?ncid=APPLENEWS00001) revealed by the Huffington Post on Monday. "I do miss Nancy Reagan. Ronald even more. Speaking of Bedtime for Bonzo, I think even that chimp stood up straighter than Michelle. Uh-oh, someone is going to make a comment."
Housley spokesman Jake Schneider refused to apologize when reached for comment by the Huffington Post. "It's not surprising the Huffington Post—basically an extension of the Democratic Party—would do Tina Smith’s dirty work for her. This is what the radical left does when they are losing—they attack Republicans so they don’t have to come up with solutions to the problems Minnesotans are facing."
Comparing African-Americans to apes or monkeys is a common racist trope (https://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/2018/01/15/comparing-black-people-to-monkeys-has-a-long-dark-simian-history_a_23333383/)based on a supposed resemblance, and on the fact that many African cultures live alongside the great apes. During the slave era, it was a handy way of pretending black people were less evolved and thus less deserving of basic rights and freedoms.
Controversies over racist simian references have been commonplace in this year's election. Florida gubernatorial candidate Ron DeSantis has been on the defensive ever since he said Florida should not "monkey this up (https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/republican-candidate-ron-desantis-warns-florida-voters-not-monkey-electing-black)" by electing his Democratic opponent Andrew Gillum, the first black man to win a major-party gubernatorial nomination in the state. And Carla Maloney, secretary of the Republican Committee of Beaver County, Pennsylvania, resigned (https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/404658-county-gop-official-who-called-nfl-players-who-kneel-baboons) after social media posts were revealed in which she called black NFL players kneeling for the national anthem "baboons."

C. Ross
10-16-2018, 07:52 AM
Ms. Housley has been polishing up her image as a reasonable, friendly, family kind of gal. She has ads with her famous hockey playing husband.

It's a ruse. She's always been a bit of a pit bull. This news will fire up the red base who hate Ms. Obama and will see it as an unfair attack. The rest of us will see it for what it is.

David G
10-16-2018, 10:00 AM
And more winning. Trump's promised rally for Cruz in “the biggest stadium in Texas we can find (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-ted-cruz-stadium-search_us_5b8a2e13e4b0cf7b00362eb5)” turns into a venue for 8,000.

Since the biggest venue in the state holds over 102,000... he's fallen about 94,000 short.

But, to give credit where credit is due, this IS about the closest he has come to accuracy in a long while...


https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-vow-rally-biggest-082930950.html?ncid=facebook_yahoomainn_em41hhdtfi c

Rick - are you exhausted yet? Just let me know...

PeterSibley
10-17-2018, 05:06 AM
https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43951369_1758804657575561_7658444855097425920_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&oh=2208f05cdf4505eac168e7b41fc04c12&oe=5C45BB40

David G
10-17-2018, 09:34 AM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44193159_10155968512281275_4242717932217434112_n.j pg?_nc_cat=1&oh=931f33c063ed174e43ec394948388f06&oe=5C5A886B

PeterSibley
10-17-2018, 04:07 PM
‘We’re getting our asses kicked’: Republicans massively out-raised in election homestretch
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/16/democrats-republicans-fundraising-midterms-908825


Democratic challengers out-raised Republican House incumbents in 92 House districts in the past three months — a staggering mismatch that boosts the odds of a GOP washout in November.

There is no historical precedent for financing this broad and deep for congressional challengers. About half of the 92 GOP incumbents are protecting battleground districts, and some of them posted personal-record fundraising totals in the third quarter of 2018 — but they still found themselves swamped by a combination of incandescent online fundraising for Democrats and bigger donors spreading money to challengers around the country, as 61 Democrats raised over $1 million. Fifty-one House Republicans were out-raised at least 2-to-1, according to POLITICO’s analysis of the latest Federal Election Commission filings, while 71 were outspent by their challenger. Only five Democratic House incumbents were out-raised.

Gill
10-17-2018, 10:15 PM
But, to give credit where credit is due, this IS about the closest he has come to accuracy in a long while...

You must have forgotten about "horseface".

David G
10-18-2018, 08:24 AM
You must have forgotten about "horseface".

You think 'horseface' is 'accurate'??

Well beauty... beholder... etc.

But Mr. Trump apparently disagrees with you. Or he wouldn't have paid her serious coin to have sex with him, eh?


But really, he's not concerned with accuracy, and it shows. In this case, it's just another lame attempt to show his disapproval thru gratuitious and demeaning insult of women --

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/16/us/politics/trump-women-insults.html?fbclid=IwAR2bPudxTIvwG-_YjSVDji6iLrwZqBnOCW1JXwgyNFSAdAObG7RjpnPcU88

David G
10-18-2018, 09:09 AM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44270139_10157900558500968_2934148045459161088_n.p ng?_nc_cat=107&oh=d5af714ab419b39fc5b401a138797500&oe=5C5B0459

David G
10-18-2018, 09:12 AM
AND... the British analogue ---

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44273370_1915224255220573_1908749733392809984_n.jp g?_nc_cat=102&oh=4c59be49bf7d6fba91d29f61b473b898&oe=5C5B7EF3

David G
10-18-2018, 09:29 AM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44253202_1174360619378342_4384087519499649024_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&oh=99c3836d955db56eb5639ce8e31ae364&oe=5C4B6732

Rick-Mi
10-18-2018, 09:32 AM
Whoa, looks like somebody has been skewered!

Keith Wilson
10-18-2018, 09:52 AM
Or he wouldn't have paid her serious coin to have sex with him, eh?To be strictly accurate, the large payments were to keep quiet about it. And it appears to be money down the drain, since didn't work very well.

David G
10-18-2018, 09:58 AM
To be strictly accurate, the large payments were to keep quiet about it. And it appears to be money down the drain, since didn't work very well.

That was later.

But I do hear rumors that this is the topic of Trump's next book: "Getting a Refund From a Hooker"... in which he will detail how all of that was really just more 'winning' for him... and besides, it was worth it... but it never happened anyway.

oznabrag
10-18-2018, 10:13 AM
You think 'horseface' is 'accurate'??

Well beauty... beholder... etc.

But Mr. Trump apparently disagrees with you. Or he wouldn't have paid her serious coin to have sex with him, eh?


But really, he's not concerned with accuracy, and it shows. In this case, it's just another lame attempt to show his disapproval thru gratuitious and demeaning insult of women --



$130K/Minute is not a bad wage.

Durnik
10-18-2018, 10:51 AM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44270139_10157900558500968_2934148045459161088_n.p ng?_nc_cat=107&oh=d5af714ab419b39fc5b401a138797500&oe=5C5B0459


That reads a lot like a snake oil salesman's ad.. but we're smarter now.. 0-:

Except..

Except..

All of 'economics' is so much 'snake oil'..

downthecreek
10-18-2018, 11:36 AM
AND... the British analogue ---



Yup! :pmad:

leikec
10-18-2018, 11:47 AM
You must have forgotten about "horseface".

Do you wear the glory suit on Halloween?

Jeff C

Gill
10-19-2018, 08:43 PM
Do you wear the glory suit on Halloween?

Jeff C

Lol...yeah, I know...facts are racist!

David G
10-19-2018, 09:15 PM
Lol...yeah, I know...facts are racist!

Not at all. But racism IS a fact. And misdirection/obfuscatrion/deflection can be.

David G
10-21-2018, 03:14 PM
Just more winning... I suppose --



Arizona's Largest Newspaper Endorses Democrat for Senate for the First Time Since 2000


The Arizona Republic threw its weight behind Democrat Kyrsten Sinema.

S.V. Airlie
10-21-2018, 03:57 PM
That was later.

But I do hear rumors that this is the topic of Trump's next book: "Getting a Refund From a Hooker"... in which he will detail how all of that was really just more 'winning' for him... and besides, it was worth it... but it never happened anyway.Is Malinia writing the foreword?

David G
10-21-2018, 05:27 PM
Is Malinia writing the foreword?

I hadn't heard. But I can imagine her writing one urging politeness in all one's dealing with hookers... both low-level and high...

David G
10-22-2018, 12:38 AM
'Winning' is, apparently, misleading - or outright lying - to your supporters... and getting them to believe you --

https://www.yahoo.com/news/5-moments-trump-apos-nevada-213641729.html

Continuing his efforts to rally support for Republican candidates ahead of the midterms (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/topic/2018-elections), President Donald Trump (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/topic/donald-trump) on Saturday stopped in Elko, Nevada, where he pushed anti-immigrant sentiment, lied about supporting health care protections, and heaped praise on Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh for a cheering crowd.

In short, he doubled down on the messages he’s been sending for weeks.
The event was full of claims that could use better context, clarification or outright correction. Here are five of the most notable: https://www.yahoo.com/news/5-moments...213641729.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/5-moments-trump-apos-nevada-213641729.html)