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Rum_Pirate
09-04-2018, 11:56 AM
Is saying 'Wow' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is saying 'She's beautiful' a complement or sexual harassment?
​Is saying 'She's attractive' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is saying 'She's really attractive' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is saying 'She's hot' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is saying 'She's a hottie' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is 'wolf whistling' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is saying 'I'd like to give one' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is saying 'I'd like to grab her by the (insert feline word)' a complement or sexual harassment?

The above are all examples of what is often said, some agreed are more negative than others.

Which are say 'Politically correct' ?

Where would you take offense when out with your wife/girlfriend/sister/daughter/mother/grandmother and something was said about her/them?

Is there a different standard for each?

Point and question is where is the line drawn and what crosses it?

A couple of C&P's to consider.


Complimenting the physical appearance of a random woman on the street is not a compliment. Even if you think of it as a compliment, and think you're being nice and that she should feel glad to have received your compliment, well, that view is indicative of a really problematic mindset that says your opinion matters enough for us to want to hear it. Women should be allowed the sanctity of their own self-image without the influence of the male gaze.This kind of interaction on the street is also a reminder to a woman that she is being viewed constantly as an object. The implications of this are as follows:

Her worth is only valued at her ability to adhere to rigid, culturally imposed beauty standards.


She is an object and therefore cannot reasonably be expected to be treated with the respect of a full human.
The man "complimenting" her feels entitled to look at her, judge how she looks, force that judgment onto her, forcing her to internalize his view of herself.
And if he feels entitled to her in those ways, where does it stop? Where is the line of entitlement drawn? Maybe that's as far as it goes with this one person. But how does the woman know? How does she know that he doesn't feel equally entitled to have sex with her or beat her or kill her, as some men do feel entitled to do to women? The point is: She does not know. And that is why it is threatening.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/46527-6-things-you-might-not-think-are-harassment-but-definitely-are-because-apparently-we-need-to Yes it is a 4 year old post, the issue remains valid


THE BLOG21/05/2017 16:31 BST | Updated 22/05/2017 05:07 BST
Sexual Harassment Is Not A Compliment - It's A Statement Of Power

Caitlin Roper (https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/author/caitlin-roper/) Campaigner against the sexual exploitation of women and girls

Sexual harassment. It's one of those things overly sensitive feminists complain about. Women who have it so good they have to find something trivial to whinge about, you know - the ones who just can't take a joke.
This is the dominant narrative when it comes to sexual harassment. It's not a real issue, or not a serious one at least, but rather, women getting offended over nothing and finding problems where they don't exist.
Sexual harassment is often regarded as just a joke, harmless banter or even a compliment- an innocent comment a woman got upset over. For many women, however, sexual harassment is just one of the realities of being a woman. It's something we're supposed to shrug off with a good-natured laugh or quietly endure.
This normalised harassment has a real life impact on women. It restricts our freedoms, with many women reporting going to great lengths modifying their behaviour in order to avoid it. Some are forced to take up different routes or avoid certain areas to escape it as they go about their day. Others give up activities like running because of men driving past doling out 'compliments' like "Show us your tits!"



Sexual harassment may involve unwanted sexual advances, obscene remarks or gestures, often in a workplace or social setting. It can entail unsolicited comments about our bodies, or comments of a sexual nature; it may be a wolf-whistle or a lewd gesture from a colleague or a strange man, and us women are supposed to find this all very charming.
But sexual harassment isn't a compliment, it's an expression of power. It is just one manifestation of a culture that is openly hostile to women, one in which women and girls exist for the pleasure of men. Where women are regarded as public property and men entitled to vocally appraise their bodies and signify their approval or lack thereof, because that's what women and girls are for- to be aesthetically pleasing for men. Sexual harassment not only reflects sexist attitudes towards women, it communicates messages of power between men and women, reminding women of their place, and what they are for.
One night a few months back I was loading bags of groceries into my car. It was dark and the car park was almost empty. A man wolf-whistled at me. I ignored him and continued putting away my groceries. So he whistled a second time. What was the purpose of this, I wondered? It's not as though he was trying to start a conversation with me. What response did he expect? Was I supposed to smile and act all coy ("Oh, you!") or was I meant to find it unsettling? That's when it hit me. It wasn't enough for this man to quietly appreciate my appearance or to make a judgment on my body, if that was what he was doing, but he needed me to know that he was, and that it was his right.
A friend of mine recently related her discomfort while when at the gym a man she didn't know approached her, leaned in close, kissed the air and said, "Love the lips!" As she recounted the incident on Twitter, she described the sick feeling she felt, along with her frustration that she had been too startled and taken aback to respond, a scenario all too many women can relate to. Female socialisation plays a role here- as girls, we are taught to be polite, don't rock the boat, don't make men uncomfortable. We learn that setting clearly defined boundaries might be viewed as rude, and that being assertive can be equated with being bitchy. Most of all we learn to put the needs of others before our own, and that may include putting men's egos ahead of our own feelings of safety or security. Various women online empathised with my friend.
Luckily for us, this was when a bunch of random dude bros showed up just in time to share their manly wisdom and explain why sexual harassment is not a thing. What was really going on here, as I learned, is that my friend was simply overreacting, and being "forward" (i.e. strange men making women feel uncomfortable in social situations) is actually a great way to get women, because we're all just waiting to get 'got' you know?
Another began with the premise "if [she] found it inappropriate". As if the issue was not about men making sexually suggestive comments to women, but women being overly sensitive about it. This super insightful guy argued that the onus was on my friend, and women in general, to confront creepy men making sexually suggestive or threatening comments. How is a man going to know if he's made a woman uncomfortable with his sexually aggressive come-ons if she doesn't point it out to him, after all?
Putting aside my serious concerns for these men who believe sexual harassment can be a great ice-breaker, this exchange is a testament to the sexist attitudes and entitlement to women's bodies still held by too many men. This belief that men's perceived rights to the bodies of women and girls should trump women's discomfort, that male entitlement should take precedence over women's dignity and autonomy.
To these men, I say this:
Women's bodies are their own. They are not public property. They do not exist for your enjoyment; they are not props, scenery or eye candy, not for you to openly appraise. Women are human beings. Having a female body and existing in public is not an invitation.

Norman Bernstein
09-04-2018, 12:01 PM
Is saying 'Wow' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is saying 'She's beautiful' a complement or sexual harassment?
​Is saying 'She's attractive' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is saying 'She's really attractive' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is saying 'She's hot' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is saying 'She's a hottie' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is 'wolf whistling' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is saying 'I'd like to give one' a complement or sexual harassment?
Is saying 'I'd like to grab her by the (insert feline word)' a complement or sexual harassment?


The last two would probably be acknowledged by all, to be sexual harassment....

...but the others, when completely devoid of context, are not definable as such.

Flying Orca
09-04-2018, 12:07 PM
Pro-tip: if you are moved to compliment someone, compliment them using a positive but not specifically aesthetic modifier ("great" or "awesome" rather than "cute" or "beautiful") and a subject over which they have control (e.g. shoes, hairstyle).

OK: "That's a great jacket!"

NOT OK: "You have hot legs!"

Rum_Pirate
09-04-2018, 12:13 PM
The last two would probably be acknowledged by all, to be sexual harassment....

...but the others, when completely devoid of context, are not definable as such.

So you would be entirely comfortable with a man/men saying any of the first six examples to your female partner/etc?

BTW The 7th one . . wolf whistling'. The French appear to have been able to put it into context.;)


Men will be fined up to £656 for wolf whistling women in France Tom HerbertSunday 20 May 2018 4:29 pm
Macron said the bill is meant to ensure ‘women are not afraid to be outside’
Men who wolf-whistle at women in France face fines of up to £656 under new laws to combat sexual violence.
Cat-callers and aggressively lecherous people of either sex can be hit with on-the-spot penalties ranging from 90 to 750 euros (£656).
Lawmakers in the National Assembly recently approved the new legislation in a bid to end sexual harassment.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2018/05/20/men-will-fined-656-wolf-whistling-women-france-7562725/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

PS sent you PM Googled re hot. Might put a different completion on things.

Keith Wilson
09-04-2018, 12:16 PM
There is a great deal to be said for the old idea of behaving like a 'gentleman', which, at best, means treating everyone with respect. If you are tempted to comment on a woman's sexual attractiveness who you aren't in a serious relationship with, when in doubt, keep your mouth shut unless she asked you. 'En boca cerrada no entran moscas.'

Rum_Pirate
09-04-2018, 12:17 PM
There is a great deal to be said for the old idea of behaving like a 'gentleman', which, at best, means treating everyone with respect. I agree 100%.

Norman Bernstein
09-04-2018, 12:19 PM
So you would be entirely comfortable with a man/men saying any of the first six examples to your female partner/etc?

It is completely dependent on context.

Rum_Pirate
09-04-2018, 12:22 PM
I would hate to be a young man in this day and age.

The accusations and the 'take' on what one said could possibly destroy one's career and life.

I suppose that they will somehow manage to deal with it.

Chris Coose
09-04-2018, 12:24 PM
...but the others, when completely devoid of context, are not definable as such.

I don't post pictures of women (especially family members) in scanty attire or bathing suits because the message can often cause ambiguity.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-04-2018, 01:34 PM
There is a great deal to be said for the old idea of behaving like a 'gentleman', which, at best, means treating everyone with respect. If you are tempted to comment on a woman's sexual attractiveness who you aren't in a serious relationship with, when in doubt, keep your mouth shut unless she asked you. 'En boca cerrada no entran moscas.'

Yes.

genglandoh
09-04-2018, 01:37 PM
Everything is considered sexual harassment if the person feels that it is.
So before you speak you have to read the minds of everyone around you.

George Jung
09-04-2018, 01:39 PM
None of those are complements, though they may be complementary.

George Jung
09-04-2018, 01:39 PM
There is a great deal to be said for the old idea of behaving like a 'gentleman', which, at best, means treating everyone with respect. If you are tempted to comment on a woman's sexual attractiveness who you aren't in a serious relationship with, when in doubt, keep your mouth shut unless she asked you. 'En boca cerrada no entran moscas.'


Yes.

Yup.

wizbang 13
09-04-2018, 01:50 PM
What if a certain someone is actually working in a garden and they are actually getting hot?
Can one say, "she looks hot"?

sarnella
09-04-2018, 02:01 PM
No! You could say that it looks like you are getting warm, would you like an ice tea?

Peerie Maa
09-04-2018, 03:04 PM
There is a great deal to be said for the old idea of behaving like a 'gentleman', which, at best, means treating everyone with respect. If you are tempted to comment on a woman's sexual attractiveness who you aren't in a serious relationship with, when in doubt, keep your mouth shut unless she asked you. 'En boca cerrada no entran moscas.'

I agree 100%.


I would hate to be a young man in this day and age.

The accusations and the 'take' on what one said could possibly destroy one's career and life.

I suppose that they will somehow manage to deal with it.
You flip flop like a wind vane in a dust devil.
Do you ever engage your brain before operating your typing finger?

Tom Montgomery
09-04-2018, 03:12 PM
I would hate to be a young man in this day and age.

The accusations and the 'take' on what one said could possibly destroy one's career and life.

I suppose that they will somehow manage to deal with it.I have no sympathy for boorish ungentlemanly behavior.

If the young men of this day and age do not understand what is gentlemanly as opposed to what is boorish they will indeed struggle to "deal with it." Tough. They'll have to learn somehow.

Rum_Pirate
09-04-2018, 03:38 PM
You flip flop like a wind vane in a dust devil.
Do you ever engage your brain before operating your typing finger?

Really?

The young do not appear to have much broughtupsy (Caribbean word) to behave like a 'gentleman', which could place them in an awkward situation.

I agree 100% There is a great deal to be said for the old idea of behaving like a 'gentleman', which, at best, means treating everyone with respect. My Post # 6

I also state that I would hate to be a young man in this day and age. The accusations and the 'take' on what one said could possibly destroy one's career and life. I suppose that they will somehow manage to deal with it. My Post # 6

Where is the 'flip flopping in that? :confused:

Tom Montgomery
09-04-2018, 03:40 PM
Isn't treating others with respect belittled these days as being "politically correct?"

No wonder fewer and fewer know how to behave like a gentleman.

Phil Y
09-04-2018, 04:42 PM
If you have to ask you are probably a bit short in the broughtupsy department. Typing complement, as in a full complement of parts, rather than compliment, as in admiring comment, would be another indicator.

Rum_Pirate
09-04-2018, 04:46 PM
If you have to ask you are probably a bit short in the broughtupsy department. Typing complement, as in a full complement of parts, rather than compliment, as in admiring comment, would be another indicator. Nah, that is the predictive text. Ah well. Thankfully the Bilge is not a ultra correct pedantic forum, or is it? :D

Peerie Maa
09-04-2018, 04:52 PM
Really?

The young do not appear to have much broughtupsy (Caribbean word) to behave like a 'gentleman', which could place them in an awkward situation.

I agree 100% There is a great deal to be said for the old idea of behaving like a 'gentleman', which, at best, means treating everyone with respect. My Post # 6

I also state that I would hate to be a young man in this day and age. The accusations and the 'take' on what one said could possibly destroy one's career and life. I suppose that they will somehow manage to deal with it.My Post # 6

Where is the 'flip flopping in that? :confused:


I have no sympathy for boorish ungentlemanly behavior.

If the young men of this day and age do not understand what is gentlemanly as opposed to what is boorish they will indeed struggle to "deal with it." Tough. They'll have to learn somehow.

You appear to show sympathy for unreconstructed aerosols after agreeing that they are in the wrong.

Joe (SoCal)
09-04-2018, 05:09 PM
I don't post pictures of women (especially family members) in scanty attire or bathing suits because the message can often cause ambiguity.

I do and my wife would be the first to call an attractive woman HOT !!! :D

Joe (SoCal)
09-04-2018, 05:11 PM
I wish somebody, anybody would refer to me as HOT :) Maybe a DILF ? :D :D :D

Peerie Maa
09-04-2018, 05:31 PM
I do and my wife would be the first to call an attractive woman HOT !!! :D

In the strangers hearing?

Well I suppose that it takes all sorts.

Joe (SoCal)
09-04-2018, 05:34 PM
In the strangers hearing?

It's happened many time with a much more pleasant outcome than you imagine.
Yes indeed it takes all sorts, ...........thank God ;)

Phil Y
09-04-2018, 05:44 PM
Nah, that is the predictive text. Ah well. Thankfully the Bilge is not a ultra correct pedantic forum, or is it? :D
Pedantry, here? Never. I just thought I'd leave the topic and attack the man. :)

Oysterhouse
09-04-2018, 07:46 PM
No! You could say that it looks like you are getting warm, would you like an ice tea?

Hey lady, your melons look hot! perhaps you should get them out of the Sun. Would you like an iced tea?

Yea!

I think I'm getting the hang of this!

elf
09-04-2018, 08:35 PM
If the comment is about a physical thing, it's objectifying. If the comment is addressed to a person about that thing, it's harrassing.

PeterSibley
09-04-2018, 11:56 PM
There is a great deal to be said for the old idea of behaving like a 'gentleman', which, at best, means treating everyone with respect. If you are tempted to comment on a woman's sexual attractiveness who you aren't in a serious relationship with, when in doubt, keep your mouth shut unless she asked you. 'En boca cerrada no entran moscas.'

100%, difficult to improve on.

Jimmy W
09-05-2018, 01:11 AM
Last month, I bought a beer from this young lady. I told her that I thought she was beautiful. She didn't seem to get upset. I am about 3 times her age, I wasn't trying to hit on her.
22282

downthecreek
09-05-2018, 01:51 AM
There is a great deal to be said for the old idea of behaving like a 'gentleman', which, at best, means treating everyone with respect. If you are tempted to comment on a woman's sexual attractiveness who you aren't in a serious relationship with, when in doubt, keep your mouth shut unless she asked you. 'En boca cerrada no entran moscas.'

+ Another

Relationship and context are all. And the simple act of remembering that women are equal human beings. No need for all the hysteria and self pity (Oh, it's so difficult for us poor men.........)

downthecreek
09-05-2018, 03:35 AM
Everything is considered sexual harassment if the person feels that it is.
So before you speak you have to read the minds of everyone around you.

And yet the majority of reasonably mature and decent men manage to negotiate this impossible problem and sustain peaceful and mutually satisfactory relationships women every day. Extraordinary, isn't it?

Phil Y
09-05-2018, 05:27 AM
And yet the majority of reasonably mature and decent men manage to negotiate this impossible problem and sustain peaceful and mutually satisfactory relationships women every day. Extraordinary, isn't it?
Yep. Best go non verbal, grab em by the pussy and see how it goes.

oznabrag
09-05-2018, 08:17 AM
If the comment is about a physical thing, it's objectifying. If the comment is addressed to a person about that thing, it's harrassing.

Soooo . . . the 'object' of affection has no role in this?

I think you are incorrect.

I think that making a suggestion is not out of bounds, but to persist quickly becomes harassment.

Peerie Maa
09-05-2018, 08:46 AM
Soooo . . . the 'object' of affection has no role in this?

I think you are incorrect.

I think that making a suggestion is not out of bounds, but to persist quickly becomes harassment.

Yes, persisting when you have been made aware that it is not welcome is the definition of harassment.
When the remark is out of order depends on context and the relationship between the recipient and the bestower.

Do not make assumptions, and as has been advised above "If in doubt say nowt."

The Bigfella
09-05-2018, 08:57 AM
Last month, I bought a beer from this young lady. I told her that I thought she was beautiful. She didn't seem to get upset. I am about 3 times her age, I wasn't trying to hit on her.
22282

Yes, that qualifies.

Dan McCosh
09-05-2018, 09:03 AM
https://youtu.be/ssXAkg0bV6o

Keith Wilson
09-05-2018, 09:13 AM
I'd say that most of the complaints about excessive sensitivity to 'innocent' comments are variations on the sort of white male 'victim' whining that led Geng to comment on the supposed disappearance of white male Democratic candidates. Many things that men, particularly men in positions of power, used to be able to get away with around those with less power are no longer acceptable, and some folks don't like it. Tough sh!t, boys. Yes, there is an occasional overreaction, and that's certainly a bad thing, but it's about .0001% of the crap women have had to put up with over the years.

I have never in my life been accused of harassing anyone, and particularly when I was young, that was definitely not through a lack of robust heterosexuality. Treat human beings with respect. How hard is that to figure out?

Rum_Pirate
09-05-2018, 09:22 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhAGSu9cSLI

jonboy
09-05-2018, 09:23 AM
Gentlemanly behaviour…..hmmm.

My father who was proud to be a gentleman, and would constantly remind us he was born in the Edwardian era, would doff his hat to a woman, hold open a door or at least step aside and let her go first, would step off the pavement / sidewalk to allow a woman to pass, give up his seat if a woman was standing, offer to help with luggage at a train station, and so on.
I'm sure he didn't even think about it, and certainly not in any predatory way. he'd just as soon pass through a door and if he noticed anybody behind, male or female, even several paces, would hold the door til they reached it.
But he would expect everyone else to do the same thing.

Rum_Pirate
09-05-2018, 09:31 AM
Gentlemanly behaviour…..hmmm.

My father who was proud to be a gentleman, and would constantly remind us he was born in the Edwardian era, would doff his hat to a woman, hold open a door or at least step aside and let her go first, would step off the pavement / sidewalk to allow a woman to pass, give up his seat if a woman was standing, offer to help with luggage at a train station, and so on.
I'm sure he didn't even think about it, and certainly not in any predatory way. he'd just as soon pass through a door and if he noticed anybody behind, male or female, even several paces, would hold the door til they reached it.
But he would expect everyone else to do the same thing.

I was brought up to do those considerations, including going down stairs first and going upstairs second, walking on the outside of the pavement/sidewalk to 'protect' the lady whom you are with from splashes and minimize danger of passing vehicles etc.



Why Men Are Being Told to ‘Be Careful’ About Holding a Door Open for a Woman
https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/sites/ito/files/field/image/manholdingdoor.jpg


Recently my workplace instigated new measures to ensure a safer, more equitable environment. This included learning what constitutes sexual harassment. As part of this exercise, I was asked to rate the acceptability of a man holding a door open for a woman.Although it was deemed “generally acceptable,” men were advised to be careful with this gesture, lest the female recipient think it springs from a sense of her inferiority and incompetence.Where does that leave men who want to show courtesy– respect– to women? Between the devil and the deep blue sea as far as I can tell. It traps them in a societal no-man’s-land, where they rightly feel damned-if-they-do, and damned-if-they-don’t.The presumption in campaigns such as Me Too and Time’s Up is that men have an inherent will to tyrannise over women which they cannot or will not control. The door of reason and respect is being slammed in their collective face.Is it a surprise, then, that there is a male backlash (https://nypost.com/2018/02/03/a-male-backlash-against-metoo-is-brewing/) against this slur?Interestingly, these men are gaining female allies. French actress Catherine Deneuve, for example, published an open letter (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/14/french-feminists-catherine-deneuve-metoo-letter-sexual-harassment) signed by 99 other influential French women, disagreeing with Me Too.The letter criticised the movement, claiming it supports the “Victorian idea that women are mere children who have to be protected.” It said: “… as women, we do not recognise ourselves in this feminism, which beyond denouncing the abuse of power, takes on a hatred of men and of sexuality.”Trust the French to be ahead of the times– and have the self-confidence to break the taboo surrounding female victimhood.But men can feel victimised too. The broad-brush approach of the “women speaking up” campaign can make decent men feel not only guilty, but resentful.I have a husband, five blood brothers, nine brothers-in-law, and a son; so I hope I’ve learned a little about how men tick. And, my goodness, if there’s one thing I’ve discovered, it is that men only flourish, and are their best selves, when they are beneficiaries of mutual respect.The worst thing about the general denigration of “men” is that it may become a self-fulfilling cliche.So I believe it is up to women who have a healthy and authentic regard for the men in their lives, and men in general, to take some deliberate steps towards bringing about more respect and harmony between the sexes.We could start by expecting, and graciously accepting the door held open for us by a gentleman, letting him know by our “thank you” and smile that we do not regard it as a ploy to belittle us but rather, as the sort of thing that real men do.https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/why-men-are-being-told-be-careful-about-holding-door-open-woman

Rum_Pirate
09-05-2018, 09:33 AM
The male backlash in above C&P



A male backlash against #MeToo is brewing (https://nypost.com/2018/02/03/a-male-backlash-against-metoo-is-brewing/)

By Kyle Smith (https://nypost.com/author/kyle-smith/)

February 3, 2018 | 2:43pm

Men are scared, and feminists are delighted. But the urge to call out and punish male sexual transgression is bound to clash with an inescapable truth: We’re all in this together, men and women.

Consider what’s happening in the capital of Florida. Female staffers and lobbyists have found “many male legislators will no longer meet with them privately,” reported the Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article189152134.html). “I had a senator say, ‘I need my aide here in the room because I need a chaperone,’ ” lobbyist Jennifer Green told the paper. “I said, ‘Senator, why do you need a chaperone? . . . Do you feel uncomfortable around me?’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘anyone can say anything with the door shut.’ ”

“I’m getting the feeling that we’re going back 20 years as female professionals,” said Green, who owns her company. “I fully anticipate I’m going to be competing with another firm that is currently owned by some male, and the deciding factor is going to be: ‘You don’t want to hire a female lobbying firm in this environment.’ ”

This kind of thinking is catching on in aggressively P.C. Silicon Valley, where men are taking to message boards like Reddit to express interest in sex segregation — sometimes labeled “Men Going Their Own Way,” or the “Man-o-Sphere.” How will that work out for women in the tech industry, where they already face substantial challenges?

Across industries, “Several major companies have told us they are now limiting travel between the genders,” Johnny Taylor, president of the Society for Human Resource Management, told the Chicago Tribune, citing execs who tell men not to go on business trips or share rental cars with women co-workers. UCLA psychologist Kim Elsesser, the author of “Sex and the Office,” sees a nascent “sex partition.” If men start to back away from women, at least in professional settings, it’s difficult to see how that will aid the feminist cause.

As is characteristic of movements led by the left in general, #MeToo faces the prospect of being seen to push too far, too fast. Not long ago, the British magazine The Spectator depicted the cause as a feminist Reformation, with a modern woman nailing her demands to the door of a church like Martin Luther. These days the entirely justified anger and calls for change are venturing into iconoclasm: Let’s knock over some innocent statues and shatter all those stained-glass windows!

Outraged feminists triggered by “Thérèse Dreaming,” a suggestive 1938 painting of a clothed pubescent girl by the Polish-French artist Balthus, demanded the Metropolitan Museum of Art remove it. (The Met, to its credit, refused.) Moms are dressing their sons in humiliating “The Future Is Female” T-shirts. The women’s website Bustle banned the word “flattering” because it implies there’s an ideal shape for a woman, and we all know women aren’t interested in looks.

Companies are firing perverts and sexual harassers, which is great, but those who can’t find any bad behavior to punish are casting around angrily, looking for random things to attack. Jordan Peterson, the University of Toronto professor and author of the bestseller “12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos,” who has become a YouTube sensation by rebutting crazy left-wing students, has been lambasted on social media for citing sociological studies that say women are more agreeable in the workplace and suffer some salary repercussions because of it. Although this is essentially a restatement of the thinking behind “Lean In” — if you want it, push for it — Peterson found himself being subjected to an absurdly hostile interview by British broadcaster Cathy Newman in a confrontation that went viral and led to more abuse being heaped on Peterson.

Writing in The American Interest, Claire Berlinski calls the #MeToo movement “a frenzied extrajudicial warlock hunt that does not pause to parse the difference between rape and stupidity” and “a classic moral panic, one that is ultimately as dangerous to women as to men.” She tells a story about how she just discovered she has a new power: the power to ruin the career of a professor she knew at Oxford who grabbed her butt 20 years ago while drunk at a party. “I was amused and flattered,” she writes, saying, “I knew full well he’d been dying to do that. Our tutorials — which took place one-on-one with no chaperones — were livelier intellectually for that sublimated undercurrent. He was an Oxford don and so had power over me . . . But I also had power over him — power sufficient to cause a venerable don to make a perfect fool of himself at a Christmas party. Unsurprisingly, I loved having that power.

Reformers should keep her underlying point in mind: Change may be good, but be wary of unintended consequences. Turning men and women into hostile opposing camps is not going to be good for either sex.

downthecreek
09-05-2018, 10:01 AM
Gentlemanly behaviour…..hmmm.

My father who was proud to be a gentleman, and would constantly remind us he was born in the Edwardian era, would doff his hat to a woman, hold open a door or at least step aside and let her go first, would step off the pavement / sidewalk to allow a woman to pass, give up his seat if a woman was standing, offer to help with luggage at a train station, and so on.
I'm sure he didn't even think about it, and certainly not in any predatory way. he'd just as soon pass through a door and if he noticed anybody behind, male or female, even several paces, would hold the door til they reached it.
But he would expect everyone else to do the same thing.

A gentleman by the standards of his age..... But that was a very unequal age for women. And some of these elaborate courtesies stem from that. I don't think most women want to be "put on a pedestal" any more than they want to be pestered by immature and graceless males. They just want to be treated and respected as equal human beings!

Ordinary good manners would suggest to me that I accept these kinds of courtesies as they are usually intended - as acts of kindness. But I don't expect them. Sometimes they are welcome. When I used to do a lot of work in London I often had to carry heavy stuff, mainly in a wheeled suitcase, which would have to be carried up and down the stairs in some tube stations. Quite often, a man would come up behind me, pick up the case carry it to the top and depart without a word. How could I not appreciate this kind of small act of kindness? And, of course, I will do equivalent small favours for any stranger, male or female, who needed something I could offer. One of the genuine differences between men and women is, of course, that men tend to be stronger. I think women who angrily berate men about small, disinterested acts of kindness do none of us any favours.

Incidentally, I have no patience with the idiots who witter on about men and women not being the same. Of course not. Equal does not mean identical. Or the ones who claim to "revere" women or some such nonsense and whine about "can't do anything right". To them I say - listen to your Uncle Keith, boys, and GROW UP!

leikec
09-05-2018, 10:54 AM
[QUOTE=downthecreek;5666637]I don't think most women want to be "put on a pedestal" any more than they want to be pestered by immature and graceless males. They just want to be treated and respected as equal human beings!

[\QUOTE]

Exactly.

Jeff C

Durnik
09-05-2018, 12:37 PM
from rp's c&p..

"Where does that leave men who want to show courtesy– respect– to women?" (re: holding door)

The answer seems obvious.. if you are 'respecting' someone because they are a particular gender, it's the gender, not the person. Down here (mid south U.S.) we just hold the door for everyone.. problem solved!

George Jung
09-05-2018, 12:39 PM
from rp's c&p..

"Where does that leave men who want to show courtesy– respect– to women?" (re: holding door)

The answer seems obvious.. if you are 'respecting' someone because they are a particular gender, it's the gender, not the person. Down here (mid south U.S.) we just hold the door for everyone.. problem solved!

Same here.

Rum_Pirate
09-05-2018, 01:39 PM
from rp's c&p..

"Where does that leave men who want to show courtesy– respect– to women?" (re: holding door)

The answer seems obvious.. if you are 'respecting' someone because they are a particular gender, it's the gender, not the person. Down here (mid south U.S.) we just hold the door for everyone.. problem solved!
Ditto.