PDA

View Full Version : News Nobody Wants to Hear....



webishop14
08-24-2018, 03:11 PM
While it does tend to support my own thinking on the matter, I'm sure very few people will be interested in hearing about this (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/23/no-healthy-level-of-alcohol-consumption-says-major-study). The study is from the U. of Washington, which does tend to mitigate somewhat the fact that the story is being reported in the Guardian. Happy weekend everyone.

leikec
08-24-2018, 03:17 PM
Well that certainly clears up everything...

Jeff C

Flying Orca
08-24-2018, 03:21 PM
You sure that isn't supposed to be "News nobody gets to hear"...?

Rum_Pirate
08-24-2018, 03:25 PM
Chaps he has a link


While it does tend to support my own thinking on the matter, I'm sure very few people will be interested in hearing about this (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/23/no-healthy-level-of-alcohol-consumption-says-major-study). The study is from the U. of Washington, which does tend to mitigate somewhat the fact that the story is being reported in the Guardian. Happy weekend everyone.

For the long version see here https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/23/no-healthy-level-of-alcohol-consumption-says-major-study

elf
08-24-2018, 03:25 PM
Duh.

Peerie Maa
08-24-2018, 03:25 PM
Well having survived to 68

Alcohol, says their report published in the Lancet medical journal (http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31310-2/fulltext), led to 2.8 million deaths in 2016. It was the leading risk factor for premature mortality and disability in the 15 to 49 age group, accounting for 20% of deaths.
should I be worried?

Flying Orca
08-24-2018, 03:27 PM
Oh, that. Yeah, I read that this morning.

Life is 100% fatal.

Rum_Pirate
08-24-2018, 04:07 PM
Good thing the islands in the Caribbean were not included in the survey. :d

21849

Keith Wilson
08-24-2018, 04:24 PM
Hey, you didn't want to live forever anyway, didja? And it looks from a glance at the data that the risk from moderate amounts of alcohol is quite small.

Peerie Maa
08-24-2018, 04:35 PM
Good thing the islands in the Caribbean were not included in the survey. :d

21849

Funny that, although it is becoming less rigorous, alcohol is generally considered to be haraam (forbidden) in Islam,

Rich Jones
08-24-2018, 04:42 PM
They'll have to pry my glass of Merlow from my dead, cold hands.

David G
08-24-2018, 05:07 PM
'Everything happens for a Reisling'

johnw
08-24-2018, 05:11 PM
I'm finding that the older I get, the less alcohol appeals to me. I'm not tea total, but I find I drink less than I did when I was younger.

David G
08-24-2018, 05:17 PM
I'm finding that the older I get, the less alcohol appeals to me. I'm not tea total, but I find I drink less than I did when I was younger.

Me too. I drank like a madman in high school. Different culture in college, and hardly drank at all. Afterward, having opened my first shop, we drank Moosehead & St. Pauli Girl in moderate quantities - both after work sometimes, and on our group fishing expeditions. That tapered off when the one foreman/fishing buddy left. But then, in '82, I discovered Sierra Nevada Brewing. It was a revelation, and I started drinking beer again - with enthusiasm. But in smaller quantities. 1-2 in an evening or a day. Now there are times when I don't even finish the beer I opened... and a 6 pack lasts me weeks unless there are guests.

But, like Keith mentioned, moderate quantities seem to be salubrious.

John of Phoenix
08-24-2018, 05:34 PM
Funny that, although it is becoming less rigorous, alcohol is generally considered to be haraam (forbidden) in Islam,During my tour in Iran we would shop at the embassy commissary in Tehran for food and their "annex" for liquor. It was a HUGE warehouse with pallets of every kind of booze you can name, stacked 20 feet high in blocks of four pallet squares. There had to be a couple million gallons of top quality, tax free, dirt cheap hooch in the place. The local economy on the other hand was barren of booze so that stuff was like liquid gold. Capitalism being the great American pastime, we built a bar on each level of our three storey team house and stocked each with a variety of everything we could get and kept a good supply of extra stock in the basement. On the weekend we'd have an open house that would draw in American employees of Bell Helicopter, Boeing, Northrup-Grumman, etc. and a couple of turkeys from the CIA. Drinks were a buck and we had free snacks and the occasional BBQ. It was smash. The place was always packed - all three storeys.

One day one of the Iranian commanders came out to check on the guards and drivers the Army furnished for our protection. We weren't allowed our own weapons and it was dangerous as hell to drive. He hadn't seen the house, so I showed him around - the kitchen, the pantry, the atrium caught his eye because it had a hose bib sticking out of the wall. "Ahh, washing machine room!" he said pointing to the fitting. "You don't have one? I get you one. Cheap!" I explained we had a washer and dryer in the basement and proceeded to show him. His eyes literally bugged out when he saw the boxes and boxes and boxes of liquor.

"OH, OH, OH! Where do you get this? Is it stolen?"
"No, we buy it from the embassy in Tehran."
"LOOK! LOOK! Johnny Walker! OH MY GOD! You have Johnny Walker Black!"

In the Middle East if someone says something nice about your tie, a picture on your wall, a rug, you're expected to offer it to them. They politely refuse, you offer again, they refuse and that's it. It's a custom.

"Major, please, let me get a bottle for you."
"Oh no, I couldn't. It's too expensive."
"Expensive? It's a gift! Just a little backshish, a 'thank you' for all you do for us. Here with our compliments."
"Oh no, Mister John. I couldn't. I shouldn't."
"Please Major, it's a pleasure to know how much you will enjoy it." (It's really kind of a fun game)
"Well... are you sure? OK. Oh, thank you... a thousand thanks."
"A pleasure. A delight. Enjoy."
"Mister John... [conspiratorially, looking from side to side, in a whispered voice] do you need anyone killed?"
"Uhh, no. No thank you, Major. Very generous of you but really, it's a gift."

Major Tehranifar did not survive the revolution.

Stiletto
08-24-2018, 07:21 PM
Major Tehranifar did not survive the revolution.

See, that's the risks of partaking of strong drink!

Art Haberland
08-25-2018, 12:18 AM
I am a non-drinker. It doesn't bother me that people drink, it bothers me that drinking seems to have become such a large part of our culture.

FF
08-25-2018, 02:56 AM
I had a grandfather was an alcoholic and used to raise hell in his family. This had an impact that lasted decades. Frank

ERGR
08-25-2018, 03:18 AM
Hmm. Denmark and Norway have the highest percentage of drinkers. Pakistan and Bangladesh the lowest. Seems like low alcohol consumption isn't a particularly important factor for forming a place that is pleasant to live in. I won't bother to check life expectancy.
I like drinking but also like being sober and definitely hate being drunk. Life is difficult.

Flying Orca
08-25-2018, 08:50 AM
I like good beer, good whisk(e)y, and the odd mixed drink, and we keep a well-stocked bar at home. But I have maybe one or two drinks a week - three or four, tops, if I happen to go to a session and a jam in the same week. The exception is our local Folklorama cultural festival, as I play in the band for one of the pavilions and get free beer as a result, so I usually have one or two every night for a week.

David G
08-25-2018, 09:05 AM
I am a non-drinker. It doesn't bother me that people drink, it bothers me that drinking seems to have become such a large part of our culture.

Drinking has been an integral part of human culture for a very, very long time. Other intoxicants and mind/mood altering substances also, but to a lesser degree. As far as we can tell (and it's true we can't tell anything definitively at this point, afik)... the human brain is the only one that is curious about itself. Though I have heard tales about critters flocking to abandoned apple orchards to chow down on fermenting fruit and get drunk...

David G
08-25-2018, 09:09 AM
I had a grandfather was an alcoholic and used to raise hell in his family. This had an impact that lasted decades. Frank

Alcohol is the most widespread and socially acceptable substance which gets abused. We excuse too much, and help people too little. It's a disease. And we blame when we could, as a society, be helping. If such treatment were as easily available as alcohol itself... such tragedies (some of which echo for generations) could largely become a rare thing.

McMike
08-25-2018, 09:23 AM
Drinking has been an integral part of human culture for a very, very long time. Other intoxicants and mind/mood altering substances also, but to a lesser degree. As far as we can tell (and it's true we can't tell anything definitively at this point, afik)... the human brain is the only one that is curious about itself. Though I have heard tales about critters flocking to abandoned apple orchards to chow down on fermenting fruit and get drunk...

So has slavery. So has child labor, so has smoking tobacco, so has cooking over an open fire, so have a lot of things that we've recently agreed is bad for us. I think it's interesting how people freak out at the idea that they can't live without having a daily dose of alcohol. I've never seen anything good or healthy come of frequent alcohol use and I've certainly seen, in almost every situation of habitual drinking, a net negative impact. I personally have had cause to pair down my consumption to 2-4 drinks a month, I'm still alive and there has been no decline in my overall happiness. If anything, I have more money to spend on other things.

I would venture that most of you drink 1-4 drinks daily, that's habitual drinking, in many cases, I'd say pushing into addiction, which,no matter how functional you are, is still unhealthy for mind and body.

McMike
08-25-2018, 09:28 AM
Alcohol is the most widespread and socially acceptable substance which gets abused. We excuse too much, and help people too little. It's a disease. And we blame when we could, as a society, be helping. If such treatment were as easily available as alcohol itself... such tragedies (some of which echo for generations) could largely become a rare thing.

In later stages of addiction I certainly agree it's a disease; but in all cases there is choice before it reaches that point. Calling it a disease causes many addicts to relinquish control over their choices that impact that disease giving them an out in terms of taking responsibility, enabling the problem, IMHO.

David G
08-25-2018, 09:54 AM
In later stages of addiction I certainly agree it's a disease; but in all cases there is choice before it reaches that point. Calling it a disease causes many addicts to relinquish control over their choices that impact that disease giving them an out in terms of taking responsibility, enabling the problem, IMHO.

Yeah... sorta, kinda. But mostly no. Certainly there is a small kernel of truth there. Like a disease such as diabetes (though to a lesser degree), there is an element of choice. But it's much more disease than choice.

The danger with focusing on the choice aspect is allow the whispering of the ghosts of our Puritan ancestors to dominate the perception. And shift the discussion from treatment to 'blame & shame'.

As you may remember, my sweetie is a minister who focuses her professional efforts on issues of 'recovery'. In the hospital. In her private counseling practice. And in the congregation she started called the 'Universalist Recovery Church'. In her estimation, we have done far more damage with the 'personal responsibility' attitude than any other mistake we've made in this field. What's needed is more recognition that it's a disease beyond any individual's control... and less blame/shame. Time after time - the treatment approach has been effective, while the 'personal responsibility' approach has left people to flounder and fail and mess up their own lives, and the lives of too many others.

michigangeorge
08-25-2018, 10:24 AM
Someone needs to stand up for the drinkers here! I truly enjoy my two 'Rusty Nails' before dinner every day and have been doing so for the past 45 years and intend to do so right to the end. CHEERS!

leikec
08-25-2018, 10:38 AM
Someone needs to stand up for the drinkers here! I truly enjoy my two 'Rusty Nails' before dinner every day and have been doing so for the past 45 years and intend to do so right to the end. CHEERS!

They're all crazy drunks up in Charlevoix...


:D


Just kidding

Jeff C

Art Haberland
08-25-2018, 10:39 AM
maybe my observations are a bit biased. I grew up in a "dry town" but all you had to do was cross a bridge to find a bar or a liquor store. Ocean City NJ is also home to "night in venice" the state's biggest excuse to drink party. For a "dry town" they really put it away on that night. My choice of work also puts me in close proximity to the club scene. When you have songs that extol virtues of drinking blaring out at you at 110Db all night and enough alcohol flowing to float a boat, I admit your view on drinking tends to turn a bit sour.

It's also funny when you get pulled over late a night, as I usually work late evenings, The Police look at you funny when you tell them you don't drink.

bobbys
08-25-2018, 10:44 AM
Yeah... sorta, kinda. But mostly no. Certainly there is a small kernel of truth there. Like a disease such as diabetes (though to a lesser degree), there is an element of choice. But it's much more disease than choice.

The danger with focusing on the choice aspect is allow the whispering of the ghosts of our Puritan ancestors to dominate the perception. And shift the discussion from treatment to 'blame & shame'.

As you may remember, my sweetie is a minister who focuses her professional efforts on issues of 'recovery'. In the hospital. In her private counseling practice. And in the congregation she started called the 'Universalist Recovery Church'. In her estimation, we have done far more damage with the 'personal responsibility' attitude than any other mistake we've made in this field. What's needed is more recognition that it's a disease beyond any individual's control... and less blame/shame. Time after time - the treatment approach has been effective, while the 'personal responsibility' approach has left people to flounder and fail and mess up their own lives, and the lives of too many others.

Very odd a lib here loves to mock me having diabetes...

Only a couple objected...

I think this says more about people here then drinking.

lupussonic
08-25-2018, 10:55 AM
Ive just done 21 days of 16 hours work a day, no beers. Now I'm going out, going to a little bar I know, has a rock n roll juke box, a decent pool table, and a good crowd. I dare say I'll be ripped by the time I leave.

But im 47, a teenager compared to you guys... :d

Dave Hadfield
08-25-2018, 11:00 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if texting while driving was causing more deaths than booze around Toronto.

David G
08-26-2018, 01:54 PM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40049676_10155933533203517_232996194782019584_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=6a29be5bb47ccf5ef958a9612237f077&oe=5BF58EAE

WI-Tom
08-26-2018, 02:29 PM
Very odd a lib here loves to mock me having diabetes...

Only a couple objected...

I think this says more about people here then drinking.

Yes. It says a lot about your ability to perceive innocuous, non-judgmental comments as personal insults.

Or maybe it says a lot about your apparently iron-clad belief that any comment about diabetes is a comment about you personally.

In which case, it also says a lot about your inability to comprehend that David G's comment was actually supportive of diabetics, and not mocking them.

Tom

Bob Adams
08-26-2018, 02:34 PM
I think we should simply outlaw alcohol. Um, wait a minute....

lupussonic
08-26-2018, 03:48 PM
It is the crappiest drug around... there are far better to take. Lets not break the tradition and actually have a reasoned sensible debate about it though, that would be too wild.

I left that bar walking down the street like I had flippers on my feet.. poured myself into a cab, and woke up 11 hours later. Memories of laughter, sinking the black several times, Led Zeppelin in the air and offers of marriage to Petra the owner... must have been a good night.

Too Little Time
08-26-2018, 07:32 PM
In the UK, the chief medical officer Sally Davies has said there is no safe level of drinking, but the guidance suggests that drinkers consume no more than 14 units a week to keep the risks low.
A medical fact then an accommodation to reality.

At one time alcohol was a reasonable substitute for unreliable water supplies in the US. Perhaps elsewhere also.

I seem to function well enough without drinking or in spite of not drinking.

epoxyboy
08-27-2018, 02:57 AM
Hmm. Denmark and Norway have the highest percentage of drinkers. Pakistan and Bangladesh the lowest. Seems like low alcohol consumption isn't a particularly important factor for forming a place that is pleasant to live in. I won't bother to check life expectancy.
I like drinking but also like being sober and definitely hate being drunk. Life is difficult.
FWIW Denmark 79.25, Pakistan 67.39
https://www.infoplease.com/world/health-and-social-statistics/life-expectancy-countries-0

Peerie Maa
08-27-2018, 07:37 AM
A medical fact then an accommodation to reality.

At one time alcohol was a reasonable substitute for unreliable water supplies in the US. Perhaps elsewhere also.

I seem to function well enough without drinking or in spite of not drinking.

Everywhere in Europe. You must boil the water to brew beer and ale, which kills the bugs.

Rum_Pirate
08-27-2018, 07:52 AM
It is the crappiest drug around... there are far better to take. Why?
Also what do you suggest as as alternatives?


Lets not break the tradition and actually have a reasoned sensible debate about it though, that would be too wild. LOL


I left that bar walking down the street like I had flippers on my feet.. poured myself into a cab, and woke up 11 hours later. Memories of laughter, sinking the black several times, Led Zeppelin in the air and offers of marriage to Petra the owner... must have been a good night. ALL drugs are not good when taken to excess.

PhaseLockedLoop
08-27-2018, 12:37 PM
ALL drugs are not good when taken to excess.

Umm. That’s what “excess” means.

lupussonic
08-27-2018, 12:42 PM
ALL drugs are not good when taken to excess.

Please define 'not good'....

As far as alternatives go, take your pick... Oh, sorry you can't, legally.

Alcohol IMO provides the least interesting or beneficial experience of all the drugs I have tried or used. MDMA, mushrooms, and cannabis in small doses are extremely social drugs, and so perhaps comparable in situational use to alcohol. It is also impossible to become aggressive under the influence.

Rum_Pirate
08-27-2018, 12:53 PM
Please define 'not good'....

As far as alternatives go, take your pick... Oh, sorry you can't, legally.

Alcohol IMO provides the least interesting or beneficial experience of all the drugs I have tried or used. MDMA, mushrooms, and cannabis in small doses are extremely social drugs, and so perhaps comparable in situational use to alcohol. It is also impossible to become aggressive under the influence.


Read too many deaths by Ecstasy (E), mushrooms with my luck would be

Death Cap (Amanita phalloides) death cap mushroomDeath cap mushroom(Amanita phalloides). ...
Conocybe filaris. ...
Webcaps (Cortinarius species) ...
Autumn Skullcap (Galerina marginata) ...
Destroying Angels (Amanita species) ...
Podostroma cornu-damae. ...
Deadly Dapperling (Lepiota brunneoincarnata)

and my throat seizes in the presence of smoke, so cannabis (In small doses or not) is off too, so no thanks to any of those.

Yes, people have become addicted to and have died from alcohol, but I will stick with beer, rum, vodka and wine (alphabetical order) as I have done (less quantity and more quantity lately) for over forty years.

Iceboy
08-27-2018, 01:20 PM
Tom, I don't want to get into a pi$$ing match here over bobbys. What he is talking about was that Joe was posting comments about diabetes on every post bobbys made. It was both cruel and mocking to make fun of him because of his disease. Joe was called on it and stopped. I would like to add that darn few here even commented on that behavior. Perhaps 3 of us in total. He was not commenting on David G's post in a way that he thought it was condemning him just the fact that he agrees that diabetes having some elements of choice it is still a disease that some have no control over. No need to beat up on him when he isn't here to respond. Translation over.

Jim...


Yes. It says a lot about your ability to perceive innocuous, non-judgmental comments as personal insults.

Or maybe it says a lot about your apparently iron-clad belief that any comment about diabetes is a comment about you personally.

In which case, it also says a lot about your inability to comprehend that David G's comment was actually supportive of diabetics, and not mocking them.

Tom

lupussonic
08-27-2018, 01:27 PM
Rummy, it is also possible to drink bleach thinking it is rum. What's your point?

Also, I think it best perhaps if we don't focus on your own preferences, rather societies as a whole to discuss legislative changes we may or may not like to see.

lupussonic
08-27-2018, 01:41 PM
I would be very interested to hear of your experience with MDMA however, and how you feel society would benefit or not from substituting alcohol with it.

lupussonic
08-27-2018, 02:23 PM
Bump

Rum_Pirate
08-27-2018, 02:40 PM
Rummy, it is also possible to drink bleach thinking it is rum. What's your point?

Also, I think it best perhaps if we don't focus on your own preferences, rather societies as a whole to discuss legislative changes we may or may not like to see.


Ecstasy experiences run to children's fellow students dying from it. Also what is reported in the press (Are you going to jump on the Trump bandwagon and say the press is 'fake news'?)

I have consumed some rums that are not as good as others but none* have tasted remotely like what I imagine bleach would taste like.

Yes, I have seen alcoholics/substance abusers in Glasgow consuming liquid shoe polish diluted with Barr's Iron Bru. Ugh!

Perhaps in some circles MDMA[Ecstasy (E)], mushrooms, and cannabis may be considered 'extremely social drugs', but they are certainly not in the social circles I habit(pun intended).
I consider it best for me to avoid those sort of circles and leave them to destroy their own bodies.

* Except a couple illegal ones e.g. Hammon, and a few of the higher octane ones.

Perhaps the law should become completely liberal and let everyone consume what they like. :rolleyes:
Likewise, when they come to rob my house and steal to get money to buy drugs, there should be no uproar when I shoot them. :rolleyes:

lupussonic
08-27-2018, 02:44 PM
Exactly the predicted response I expected.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so will stick with the status quo.

Rum_Pirate
08-27-2018, 02:48 PM
Exactly the predicted response I expected.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so will stick with the status quo.


Do I have to sample drugs to discuss them?
If that is the case one should be sampling the liquid shoe polish diluted with Barr's Iron Bru as well.
Have you? If not, it would seem you have no idea what you are talking about either. :rolleyes:

Do you think young teenagers really know what they are doing when they sample drugs and what the drugs can do to them?

David G
08-27-2018, 02:55 PM
Tom, I don't want to get into a pi$$ing match here over bobbys. What he is talking about was that Joe was posting comments about diabetes on every post bobbys made. It was both cruel and mocking to make fun of him because of his disease. Joe was called on it and stopped. I would like to add that darn few here even commented on that behavior. Perhaps 3 of us in total. He was not commenting on David G's post in a way that he thought it was condemning him just the fact that he agrees that diabetes having some elements of choice it is still a disease that some have no control over. No need to beat up on him when he isn't here to respond. Translation over.

Jim...

Perhaps you are right. I could credit that interpretation. However, with his usual inept vagueness, he left it open to misinterpretation. I certainly read it as a 'response' (no... let's just say 'reaction') to my post. Or... perhaps it wasn't actual ineptitude. Perhaps it was carefully crafted to sow confusion. I could also credit THAT interpretation. He really is a feckless correspondent. Some have even said toxic.

wsgilliam
08-27-2018, 02:55 PM
Here in the sunshine state you need not wait for them at your door. A parking lot or movie theatre will do just the same. Bang bang.

lupussonic
08-27-2018, 03:14 PM
Do I have to sample drugs to discuss them?
If that is the case one should be sampling the liquid shoe polish diluted with Barr's Iron Bru as well.



Yes, you do, otherwise you are talking out of your arse, or what the papers tell you to think.

I do not understand the second sentence you wrote. You said you would not like to try mushrooms because you might eat the wrong ones. This is ridiculous, if you like to take them, you will not do this. Just as I demonstrated by saying that a rum connoisseur will not choose to drink bleach. Many alcoholic drinks contain unknown chemicals, additives and all sorts of stuff that will cause you grievous bodily harm, but apparently, because the active ingredient is condoned, and therefore taxed, by the government, you're ok with this.

My point is, do not knock until you have tried it, and certainly do not impose your ignorant views or lend support for outdated government laws on others.

Your drug of choice has far more crime, social cost, and health issues than all of the others put together.

Fact.

You can stop your internal dialogue now.

lupussonic
08-27-2018, 03:24 PM
I'm sorry if you witnessed deaths from ecstasy... I'm not sure how. It must have been full of poison, real **** cut by dealers.....because it is illegal.

Leah Betts died from drinking too much water, because she was told she should if she took it. It's only necessary if you are dancing in 30 degrees for 6 hours, but she freaked out and overdosed on WATER. The UK government blamed the drug of course, using it as propaganda.

Leah Betts, for those that don't know, was the first UK death attributed to Extasy.

David G
08-27-2018, 03:37 PM
Yes, you do, otherwise you are talking out of your arse, or what the papers tell you to think.

I do not understand the second sentence you wrote. You said you would not like to try mushrooms because you might eat the wrong ones. This is ridiculous, if you like to take them, you will not do this. Just as I demonstrated by saying that a rum connoisseur will not choose to drink bleach. Many alcoholic drinks contain unknown chemicals, additives and all sorts of stuff that will cause you grievous bodily harm, but apparently, because the active ingredient is condoned, and therefore taxed, by the government, you're ok with this.

My point is, do not knock until you have tried it, and certainly do not impose your ignorant views or lend support for outdated government laws on others.

Your drug of choice has far more crime, social cost, and health issues than all of the others put together.

Fact.

You can stop your internal dialogue now.

It really does help a conversation if those speaking to the topic actually know something about the topic.

The fact that this simple seems to elude some Bilge Rats is what has landed them on my Ignore List.