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View Full Version : Dionel vs. Xynole vs. Dynel



Stan Snapple
08-19-2018, 08:17 AM
I live in Germany. I'm building a 9-meter motorboat from Reuel Parker and about to order the fabric. In Europe, I can only find 8 oz. Dionel (265gsm). Both Xynole (4 oz.) and Dynel (5 oz.) are considerably lighter.

• Can anyone recommend other alternatives in Europe – a lighter Dionel – or other?
• If I use the 8 oz. Dionel, is that the same as using two plies of 4 oz. Xynole?
• And I'm afraid to ask for fear of digressing... the fiberglass dealer here told me that fiberglass has come a long way since the 1970s and that the only guys using Xynole and these other products are designers from the 1970s. Any opinions on this? I know what is widely accepted as the benefits of each (ie. abrasion resistance, structural rigidity, etc.).

Any input much appreciated!
Dan
https://boatmakingworkshop.weebly.com/blog

wizbang 13
08-19-2018, 10:21 AM
I dunno what is Dionel.Have not used it or heard of it.
But I have used a bit of both the others.
I'd ask if the design calls for glass or one of the others.
Dynel and xynole do not add strength, per se.
4 oz D and X absorb a BUTTLOAD of resin.
bruce

Stan Snapple
08-19-2018, 11:23 AM
Yes, the design calls for Xynole. It's a plywood boat and doesn't need the rigidity of glass. I've now found a 6oz black Dionel. It seems to be basically the same – a poor man's version of Kevlar. So right now it's a price with shipping question.

wizbang 13
08-19-2018, 11:33 AM
Kevlar is something else again!
I think kevlar is for use between lams , not suitable for surface cuz it sands weird.
(not a kevlar expert)

Stan Snapple
08-19-2018, 05:47 PM
I think I've heard Xynole and Dynel also referred to as poor man's Kevlar.

Todd Bradshaw
08-19-2018, 09:38 PM
Kevlar is known for tensile strength, for adding rigidity and for low fiber elasticity along with being extremely abrasion resistant and heat resistant (they actually have to "melt" the stuff with acid, rather than heat when making the yarns). It is also prone to just fuzzing when sanded. These are the opposite of most of the structural characteristics of Xynole or Dynel - so that man would have to be awfully poor to make such an inaccurate reference.

MN Dave
08-19-2018, 10:37 PM
I am inclined to think that either you or your vendor misspelled Dynel and may have made an error on the cloth weight as well. Dynel is generally available in a 5 oz per square yard areal density (~144gsm) in the US, but the Australian sites list 105gsm (~3oz/yd²). Since this is a Reuel Parker design, (Commuter 27?) I am inclined to think that if the plans specify anything other than fiberglass, it would be Dynel.

Dionel is either a new material, a spelling error, or Google has something against it. I can find exactly two pages on Google, this thread, and a supplier in Australia. http://www.kirkside.com.au/D104/dionel/ If you compare that page to this https://boatcraft.com.au/Shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=164 page, it looks very much the same thing, except for the spelling.

skaraborgcraft
08-20-2018, 05:53 AM
May i ask who the supplier is? I could not find any in Europe when i last looked, but came across something called Inegra, which might be called a fancy kind of S glass. The plywood would rupture before any of these sheathings come under any real stress. If its not for structural purposes, ordinary E glass and epoxy is fine as an abrasion coat, and will consume way less epoxy.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
08-20-2018, 06:06 AM
Could dionel be an oddball spelling for Diolene?

This is a polyester fabric with a long history of use in kayaks, wo is well in polyester resin, not often seen in epoxy laminates .

Compared with Kevlar it is a high elongation fibre, so much less stiff ..

http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/fabric-and-reinforcement/kevlar-aramid-diolen-etc/diolen-woven-cloth/diolen-cloth-300g-96cm.html

MN Dave
08-20-2018, 12:43 PM
Could dionel be an oddball spelling for Diolene? {It's spelled Diolen.:p MND}

This is a polyester fabric with a long history of use in kayaks, wo is well in polyester resin, not often seen in epoxy laminates .

Compared with Kevlar it is a high elongation fibre, so much less stiff ..

http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/fabric-and-reinforcement/kevlar-aramid-diolen-etc/diolen-woven-cloth/diolen-cloth-300g-96cm.html
Diolen is made in Germany, so your suggestion sounds better than mine (Dynel).

The stiffness was given as elongation at specified force (EASF) which is used for elastomers. If my back of the envelope calculation was correct, it is less than one tenth as stiff as Kevlar. With some very suspect math, it appears that a Diolen epoxy composite might be about as stiff as HDPE, maybe a little stiffer, and only a little heavier.

The information on the surface treatment says that it is compatible with all of the common laminating resins, epoxy, polyester and vinylester, Since this is for sheathing plywood, epoxy is the best choice.

Everything says that it is very tough and abrasion resistant, just not very rigid. If I were going to use it for a stand alone structure, I would consider a high elongation resin like G-Flex. For sheathing plywood, I would not worry too much about the choice of epoxy.

http://www.php-fibers.com/fileadmin/Website_Inhalt/Dokumente/PHP_Fibers_-_Polyester_Type_List___01.2017_.pdf

EDIT see post #12, above http://www.eventides.org.uk/tip.21.htm, and #36 (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?241387-Epoxy-sheathing-a-cold-molded-Sparkman-Stephens-is-fibreglass-necessary&p=5622265#post5622265)

Paul G.
08-20-2018, 11:25 PM
Just use fiberglass boat cloth and be done with it. Dynel is from the dark ages

skaraborgcraft
08-21-2018, 04:34 AM
Just use fiberglass boat cloth and be done with it. Dynel is from the dark ages

My old waterwitch had been sheathed with "cascover" and did a good job of protecting the ply for over 40 years. Wooden boats are from the dark ages too.......

Dody
08-25-2018, 09:37 AM
Have you ever heard of a company M. u. H. von der Linden in Germany? They might be an address for you to ask if they could arrange something for you.

Stan Snapple
08-30-2018, 02:10 PM
How does E-glass compare to monacrylic fibers like Xynole and Diolen? It's for a plywood hull, so I don't need the structural properties of glass. Thanks.




May i ask who the supplier is? I could not find any in Europe when i last looked, but came across something called Inegra, which might be called a fancy kind of S glass. The plywood would rupture before any of these sheathings come under any real stress. If its not for structural purposes, ordinary E glass and epoxy is fine as an abrasion coat, and will consume way less epoxy.

Stan Snapple
08-30-2018, 02:13 PM
Yesss... thanks! Diolen also comes in various weights. So I'm wondering if I can use a heavy Diolen (8oz) instead of 2-layers of Xynole (4oz). The epoxy to fabric ratio is 1:1. Any thoughts on that?



Diolen is made in Germany, so your suggestion sounds better than mine (Dynel).

The stiffness was given as elongation at specified force (EASF) which is used for elastomers. If my back of the envelope calculation was correct, it is less than one tenth as stiff as Kevlar. With some very suspect math, it appears that a Diolen epoxy composite might be about as stiff as HDPE, maybe a little stiffer, and only a little heavier.

The information on the surface treatment says that it is compatible with all of the common laminating resins, epoxy, polyester and vinylester, Since this is for sheathing plywood, epoxy is the best choice.

Everything says that it is very tough and abrasion resistant, just not very rigid. If I were going to use it for a stand alone structure, I would consider a high elongation resin like G-Flex. For sheathing plywood, I would not worry too much about the choice of epoxy.

http://www.php-fibers.com/fileadmin/Website_Inhalt/Dokumente/PHP_Fibers_-_Polyester_Type_List___01.2017_.pdf

EDIT see post #12, above http://www.eventides.org.uk/tip.21.htm, and #36 (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?241387-Epoxy-sheathing-a-cold-molded-Sparkman-Stephens-is-fibreglass-necessary&p=5622265#post5622265)

MN Dave
08-30-2018, 04:53 PM
Yesss... thanks! Diolen also comes in various weights. So I'm wondering if I can use a heavy Diolen (8oz) instead of 2-layers of Xynole (4oz). The epoxy to fabric ratio is 1:1. Any thoughts on that?
2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?243667-2-layers-of-4oz-Xynole-vs-1-layer-8oz-Diolen)
Yes, same OP both threads and the question was answered on the other one. Years from now a new reader will not see the answer without a link.

My gut feeling is to disagree with mmd where he said that one heavy layer with resin will be lighter than two lighter layers with resin, but that would take some further research. Arguing with mmd is not something I recommend. The best would be multiple very light layers of cloth laminated under pressure, but that is a far cry from a hand layup.

Two layers of lighter cloth plus resin should be lighter than twice the weight of a single layer of the same cloth once the weave is filled and the surface is smooth. There is a thicker layer of resin between the cloth and substrate and on the outside surface. Between layers, the surface asperities should nest together. Yeah, there is a better way to say that. At any rate, the heavier cloth could come out a little lighter than two lighter layers depending on how much resin it takes to fill the weave. It would also vary with the weave. 8 harness satin will be thinner and smoother than plain weave.

skaraborgcraft
08-31-2018, 02:12 AM
Yesss... thanks! Diolen also comes in various weights. So I'm wondering if I can use a heavy Diolen (8oz) instead of 2-layers of Xynole (4oz). The epoxy to fabric ratio is 1:1. Any thoughts on that?

Does not sound any different from laying up chopped strand matt with regards resin consumption. I have just ordered some cloths from my usual supplier, and they have dionel in stock.

https://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/category/diolen-cloths-and-tapes

With regards to monacrylic fibre and e-glass, i have zero experience with the former, but the people from ECF will be glad to answer questions regarding suitability for various applications.