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Norman Bernstein
06-18-2018, 12:44 PM
They're just 'chain link walls'.

https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5b27b2612000006505b94aaa.jpeg?ops=scalefit_720_nou pscale

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 12:45 PM
Are they legals or illegals?

Canoez
06-18-2018, 12:46 PM
Are they legals or illegals?

What? You can tell the difference by looking?

Norman Bernstein
06-18-2018, 12:47 PM
Are they legals or illegals?

Neither.

They are children.

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 12:52 PM
Neither.

They are children.
Did they get there by the result of legal or illegal actions?

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 12:53 PM
Are they legals or illegals?


What? You can tell the difference by looking?

I do not know, that is why I am asking the question.

Canoez
06-18-2018, 12:56 PM
I do not know.

Says it all.

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 01:01 PM
Says it all.
Typical. One posts to politely take part in a discussion and within a few posts one is subjected to personal attacks/insults.

Such attacks say a lot about the character or lack thereof of the person that makes the attacks.

As the philosopher Socrates is alleged to have said said "when debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

mdh
06-18-2018, 01:04 PM
Hmmm, those are big kids. Breastfeeders?

Canoez
06-18-2018, 01:10 PM
Typical. One posts to politely take part in a discussion and within a few posts one is subjected to personal attacks/insults.

Such attacks say a lot about the character or lack thereof of the person that makes the attacks.

As the philosopher Socrates is alleged to have said said "when debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

Absolutely not.

You cannot determine if the children being held are "illegal" or not, expect others to be able to do what you cannot.

That ANYONE arriving at our border is treated that way is a disgrace.

That the Trump Administration is confining this treatment of people who arrive at our border to that with Mexico is racist, pure and simple. How many Canadian citizens or citizens arriving via other ports, air terminals or any other border are treated this way?

There is no point of discussion regarding this subject. That the Trump Administration would put such a policy in place is abhorrent, immoral, and likely illegal under international law.

BETTY-B
06-18-2018, 01:11 PM
Says it all.

Ooops! Nope, the authoritarian snowflake has a bit more to cry about:


Typical. One posts to politely take part in a discussion and within a few posts one is subjected to personal attacks/insults.

Such attacks say a lot about the character or lack thereof of the person that makes the attacks.

As the philosopher Socrates is alleged to have said said "when debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser."

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 01:12 PM
Absolutely not.

You cannot determine if the children being held are "illegal" or not, expect others to be able to do what you cannot.

That ANYONE arriving at our border is treated that way is a disgrace.

That the Trump Administration is confining this treatment of people who arrive at our border to that with Mexico is racist, pure and simple. How many Canadian citizens or citizens arriving via other ports, air terminals or any other border are treated this way?

There is no point of discussion regarding this subject. That the Trump Administration would put such a policy in place is abhorrent, immoral, and likely illegal under international law.
After somebody insults me I have no further desire to converse with them.

Canoez
06-18-2018, 01:14 PM
Call it an insult if you like, it was intended as an observation. However, with what you have been posting of late, I will not be disappointed not to hear "discussion".

mdh
06-18-2018, 01:26 PM
President Trump is, one after another, dealing with the issues that other, intellectual, presidential acting presidents kicked down the road, because dealing with them is difficult. MS13 members start young, and have children, too.

Breakaway
06-18-2018, 01:33 PM
Hmmm, those are big kids. Breastfeeders?

Everybody is somebody's baby! :)


What should happen? Their parents broke the law--or, are charged with breaking the law. If I break the law, and am arrested, I will be separated from my kids.

What should we do with the kids? Put them in the adult lockup? What is the solution?

Kevin

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 01:36 PM
The USA like other countries has immigration laws and requirements in place.

If one enters a country illegally and is apprehended one is detained until one is deported.

Illegal entrants in various countries are likely to be detained in similar, if not worse, conditions.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/20101009_Arrested_refugees_immigrants_in_Fylakio_d etention_center_Thrace_Evros_Greece_restored.jpg/300px-20101009_Arrested_refugees_immigrants_in_Fylakio_d etention_center_Thrace_Evros_Greece_restored.jpg

Arrested refugees-immigrants in Fylakio detention center, Evros, Greece. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_detention


I suspect that the 'bleeding hearts' would require that all illegals entrants and their children (who also entered illegally) should be put up at the Calistoga Ranch in California or similar.

I know that legal entrants to the USA are not treated like the OP picture.

Illegal persons may be treated like the OP picture, but I doubt that people are treated that way (OP picture) on a deliberately racial basis in the USA.

Nor is it illegal to detain persons under international law.




Elsewhere in the world Iran. .. .handed over 19,000 Pakistanis arrested for crossing the Pak-Iran border illegally in the current year, according to a security official.https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2017/11/17/19000-illegal-immigrants-from-pakistan-handed-over-by-iran/

John of Phoenix
06-18-2018, 01:39 PM
One posts to politely take part in a discussion and within a few posts one is subjected to personal attacks/insults.

Why are reds such snowflakes?

Chris Smith porter maine
06-18-2018, 01:42 PM
The USA like other countries has immigration laws and requirements in place.

If one enters a country illegally and is apprehended one is detained until one is deported.

Illegal entrants in various countries are likely to be detained in similar, if not worse, conditions.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/20101009_Arrested_refugees_immigrants_in_Fylakio_d etention_center_Thrace_Evros_Greece_restored.jpg/300px-20101009_Arrested_refugees_immigrants_in_Fylakio_d etention_center_Thrace_Evros_Greece_restored.jpg

Arrested refugees-immigrants in Fylakio detention center, Evros, Greece. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_detention


I suspect that the 'bleeding hearts' would require that all illegals entrants and their children (who also entered illegally) should be put up at the Calistoga Ranch in California or similar.

I know that legal entrants to the USA are not treated like the OP picture.

Illegal persons may be treated like the OP picture, but I doubt that people are treated that way (OP picture) on a deliberately racial basis in the USA.

Nor is it illegal to detain persons under international law.




Elsewhere in the world Iran. .. .handed over 19,000 Pakistanis arrested for crossing the Pak-Iran border illegally in the current year, according to a security official.https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2017/11/17/19000-illegal-immigrants-from-pakistan-handed-over-by-iran/

How far we have fallen, rum is now comparing us to Iran and Greece, bigly sad!

oznabrag
06-18-2018, 01:45 PM
Everybody is somebody's baby! :)


What should happen? Their parents broke the law--or, are charged with breaking the law. If I break the law, and am arrested, I will be separated from my kids.

What should we do with the kids? Put them in the adult lockup? What is the solution?

Kevin

It is my understanding that these people are refugees, and are applying for asylum.

They come here, present themselves to US officials, and are automatically charged with thje crime of entering the country illegally.

Then their families are ripped apart.

Why do you back this?


------------


Ever heard of Lawrence, Kansas?

Bloody Bill Quantrill?


Do you know how he finally convinced his men to raid Lawrence and slaughter every man over the age of 14?

John of Phoenix
06-18-2018, 01:48 PM
Don't give 'em any ideas.

Clarkey
06-18-2018, 01:50 PM
I think this question is now answered:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

Gerarddm
06-18-2018, 01:50 PM
It is my understanding that these people are refugees, and are applying for asylum.

They come here, present themselves to US officials, and are automatically charged with thje crime of entering the country illegally.

Then their families are ripped apart.

Why do you back this?

Because Stumps do not have the mental horsepower to parse.

Ian McColgin
06-18-2018, 01:51 PM
Who needs insult when one can be treated to fabricated quotes by one too lazy to bother checking it out. But were Rum_Pirate to look, he could learn. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/socrates-debate-lost-slander-loser/

"Don't uncritically believe what you read on the internet or anywhere for that matter." - A.Lincoln.

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 01:53 PM
[QUOTE]In Texas' Rio Grande Valley, the busiest corridor for people trying to enter the U.S., Border Patrol officials argue that they have to crack down on migrants and separate adults from children as a deterrent to others."When you exempt a group of people from the law ... that creates a draw," said Manuel Padilla, the Border Patrol's chief agent here. "That creates the trends right here."
Agents running the holding facility — generally known as "Ursula" for the name of the street it's on — said everyone detained is given adequate food, access to showers and laundered clothes, and medical care. People are supposed to move through the facility quickly. Under U.S. law, children are required to be turned over within three days to shelters funded by the Department of Health and Human Services.
Padilla said agents in the Rio Grande Valley have allowed families with children under the age of 5 to stay together in most cases.[/QUOTE
I do not agree with 'reason' bold in the C&P above. There should be areas so that family units are together before deportation.

I note that : everyone detained is given adequate food, access to showers and laundered clothes, and medical care. People are supposed to moe through the facility quickly. Under U.S. law, children are required to be turned over within three days to shelters funded by the Department of Health and Human Services.

Illegal immigrants should be deported.

Taking it as a given that the USA economy has grown on the 'necessity' of seasonal workers/pickers then among other things :

- Seasonal workers/pickers should be given 'seasonal visas' after due application.
- Seasonal workers/pickers should be paid at least (or more) the legal minimum.
- Seasonal workers/pickers should return to their home country at end of visa validity.
- Picking/crop reaping jobs should be first offered to citizens, then seasonal visa's issued.
- Companies/persons 'employing' illegal immigrants should be heavily (deterrent) fined.
- Seasonal visas issued with biometrics (retina scans and fingerprinting).

SKIP KILPATRICK
06-18-2018, 01:53 PM
the solution is so simple!

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RcDICX4ML._SY300_QL70_.jpg

Norman Bernstein
06-18-2018, 01:53 PM
-I suspect that the 'bleeding hearts' would require that all illegals entrants and their children (who also entered illegally) should be put up at the Calistoga Ranch in California or similar.

well, that comment pretty much renders your complaints about civil discussion and discourse pretty much irrelevant.

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 01:58 PM
Who needs insult when one can be treated to fabricated quotes by one too lazy to bother checking it out. But were Rum_Pirate to look, he could learn. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/socrates-debate-lost-slander-loser/

"Don't uncritically believe what you read on the internet or anywhere for that matter." - A.Lincoln.

One appears to have conveniently overlooked that I stated 'alleged' in my post #8. However, regardless of whomsoever coined the phrase, the accuracy of the content still stands.

Did you bother to check out your quote of A .Lincoln. :rolleyes:

leikec
06-18-2018, 01:58 PM
I think the truly ugly people on this forum are easy to identify.

Jeff C

isla
06-18-2018, 01:59 PM
You know they don't keep wild animals in cages anymore? They just enclose them in chainlink walls :rolleyes:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_df34ArpTKaI/TIF7UnedEFI/AAAAAAAABqw/2hGdkVQ1Lks/s400/IMG_5084.JPG

Too Little Time
06-18-2018, 02:02 PM
There is no point of discussion regarding this subject. That the Trump Administration would put such a policy in place is abhorrent, immoral, and likely illegal under international law.
You might consider these comments

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-administration-defends-family-separation-policy-1529341079?mod=hp_lead_pos1

A decades-old court settlement bars the U.S. government from jailing migrant children. Until recently, the result was that families who crossed the border seeking asylum were often released into the U.S. while their cases are pursued.

Mr. Sessions described the past policy as effectively guaranteeing that an adult bringing a child would be immune from prosecution.

Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen said the administration had asked Congress “to allow us to keep families together while they are detained” as an alternative.

“We cannot detain children with their parents so we must either release parents and their children…or the adult and the minor will be separated as the result of prosecuting the adult,” she said of the current policy. “Those are the only two options.”

John of Phoenix
06-18-2018, 02:04 PM
she said of the current policy.

Get it?

Keith Wilson
06-18-2018, 02:07 PM
President Trump is, one after another, dealing with the issues that other, intellectual, presidential acting presidents kicked down the road, because dealing with them is difficult. MS13 members start young, and have children, too.Ladies and gentlemen, note that mdj is actually defending Trump's child abuse, taking children away from their parents and locking them in cages.

The law has not changed. Neither the past administration, nor the administrations before did anything like this. I am having a harder and harder time refraining from saying things that would get me banned. MS13, my *ss. And the Jews had it coming. :mad:

John of Phoenix
06-18-2018, 02:11 PM
I am having a harder and harder time refraining from saying things that would get me banned.

I promise you, reds would love nothing better than to see that happen. It's one of the missions of Russian bots, you know.

Chris Smith porter maine
06-18-2018, 02:14 PM
President Trump is, one after another, dealing with the issues that other, intellectual, presidential acting presidents kicked down the road, because dealing with them is difficult. MS13 members start young, and have children, too.

You do know MS13 was formed in LA in the 80's and we exported them to central America.

sleek
06-18-2018, 02:16 PM
So what? Its people occupying an area. I did that as a child in school. They came here full well knowing the process they were gonna have to go through, and were willing yo do it. If they didnt know, then they took a chance, and this is where theey find themselves. You cant complain if you put yourself in an unknown situation. And you cant ask me to feel sorry for them. I wish the good ones luck.

sleek
06-18-2018, 02:17 PM
You do know MS13 was formed in LA in the 80's and we exported them to central America.

Soooooo we should round em all up and take them in?

sleek
06-18-2018, 02:18 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, note that mdj is actually defending Trump's child abuse, taking children away from their parents and locking them in cages.

The law has not changed. Neither the past administration, nor the administrations before did anything like this. I am having a harder and harder time refraining from saying things that would get me banned. MS13, my *ss. And the Jews had it coming. :mad:

Easy Keith, i know its rhetoruc, but you are better than that.

Tom Montgomery
06-18-2018, 02:23 PM
Frankly, I consider the Trump administration zero tolerance policy resulting in the separation of children from their parents to be kept in concentration camps to be depraved.

How does one have a polite conversation regarding depravity?

Chris Smith porter maine
06-18-2018, 02:25 PM
Soooooo we should round em all up and take them in?

Right into prison we exported the problem we should make an attempt to solve it.

sleek
06-18-2018, 02:26 PM
Right into prison we exported the problem we should make an attempt to solve it.

Im actually ok with that on a moral basis.

Keith Wilson
06-18-2018, 02:30 PM
Easy Keith, i know its rhetoric, but you are better than that.Better than what? Better than criticizing people harshly for defending child abuse and hostage-taking? If that's what you mean, I don't want to be 'better, thank you very much. The current Trump administration policy is quite simply evil. If the world has any meaning at all, it's deliberate gratuitous cruelty toward children. Those responsible for this should be tried for crimes against humanity.


https://images.britcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/GettyImages-973077510-645x434.jpg

Joe (SoCal)
06-18-2018, 02:32 PM
Are they legals or illegals?

Undocumented or seeking refugee asylum

Steve McMahon
06-18-2018, 02:35 PM
Absolutely brutal. There is a special place in hell for the people who cause this to happen.

S.V. Airlie
06-18-2018, 02:38 PM
Undocumented or seeking refugee asylumI don't think it matters! Are they Jews or Christians? Who care RP.

leikec
06-18-2018, 02:44 PM
Better than what? Better than criticizing people harshly for defending child abuse and hostage-taking? If that's what you mean, I don't want to be 'better, thank you very much. The current Trump administration policy is quite simply evil. If the world has any meaning at all, it's deliberate gratuitous cruelty toward children. Those responsible for this should be tried for crimes against humanity.


https://images.britcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/GettyImages-973077510-645x434.jpg

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Jeff C

Art Haberland
06-18-2018, 02:47 PM
President Trump is, one after another, dealing with the issues that other, intellectual, presidential acting presidents kicked down the road, because dealing with them is difficult. MS13 members start young, and have children, too.

Ever think those parents are bringing their kids here to escape MS13?. My late, great grandfather came from the area between Poland and Russia often referred to as "Old Russia". He was 10 when my great great grandparents put him on a ship all alone with every last cent they had, all to keep him fro. Getting conscripted into the Russian army. How is his story any different?

Glen Longino
06-18-2018, 02:51 PM
Please don't say, "whoever's causing this", say "Jeff Sessions and Stephen Miller" !

John Smith
06-18-2018, 02:53 PM
I do not know, that is why I am asking the question.

Neither does our government, because it's treating them all as illegals. Presumption of guilt.

Keith Wilson
06-18-2018, 02:54 PM
Please don't say, "whoever's causing this", say "Jeff Sessions and Stephen Miller" !And the child abuser in chief.

https://www.trumanlibrary.org/images/buckstopsherefrontsmall.jpg

John Smith
06-18-2018, 02:57 PM
Just for the sake of discussion, we COULD keep all the families together and if they came here illegally deport the entire family together. In the long run it would cost less money and be far more humane.

It's not like what we're doing is the only option, and there is absolutely no law that demands we handle it as we are.

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 03:04 PM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png
(http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=5595436#post5595436)Are they legals or illegals?Undocumented or seeking refugee asylum I asked because there was no link or associated title.

Isn't there a significant difference between one who is 'Undocumented' and apprehended and one that is 'seeking refugee asylum'?

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 03:06 PM
Ever think those parents are bringing their kids here to escape MS13?. My late, great grandfather came from the area between Poland and Russia often referred to as "Old Russia". He was 10 when my great great grandparents put him on a ship all alone with every last cent they had, all to keep him fro. Getting conscripted into the Russian army. How is his story any different? And this?
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005267

John Smith
06-18-2018, 03:11 PM
I asked because there was no link or associated title.

Isn't there a significant difference between one who is 'Undocumented' and apprehended and one that is 'seeking refugee asylum'?

This is all something that our government has the right, and the responsibility, to sort out. There is NO reason they have to separate the kids from the parents while they sort it out, is there?

Chris Smith porter maine
06-18-2018, 03:12 PM
And this?
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005267

Something that happened 79 years ago really, five years ago your country was granting citizenship to terrorists...

Glen Longino
06-18-2018, 03:13 PM
And the child abuser in chief.

https://www.trumanlibrary.org/images/buckstopsherefrontsmall.jpg

Of course, but it does have the stink of Trump's Chief Political Adviser all over it.

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 03:16 PM
Neither does our government, because it's treating them all as illegals. Presumption of guilt.

It is not 'presumption of guilt' it is everyone starts at the same level of entry requirements and it progresses from there.

You haven't seen the trials and tribulations that people (in the Caribbean) have to go through to apply for a Visa at the Embassy in Barbados (Yes, one has to fly to the Embassy in Barbados for a face-to-face meeting) to visit the US - not a green card or visa to work - but a straight forward visa to visit.

By the way, there is no legal right to receive a visa (to any country).

The US government treats everyone as potential illegals/terrorists/whatever. However that is not a condemnation. It is what they have to do, treat everyone the same. One cannot try and differentiate between applicants.

Illegals should not be given preferential treatment or 'fast tracking' to enter a country.

John Smith
06-18-2018, 03:21 PM
It is not 'presumption of guilt' it is everyone starts at the same level of entry requirements and it progresses from there.

You haven't seen the trials and tribulations that people (in the Caribbean) have to go through to apply for a Visa at the Embassy in Barbados (Yes, one has to fly to the Embassy in Barbados for a face-to-face meeting) to visit the US - not a green card or visa to work - but a straight forward visa to visit.

By the way, there is no legal right to receive a visa (to any country).

The US government treats everyone as potential illegals/terrorists/whatever. However that is not a condemnation. It is what they have to do, treat everyone the same. One cannot try and differentiate between applicants.

Illegals should not be given preferential treatment or 'fast tracking' to enter a country.

No sir! It is a presumption of guilt when they treat everyone coming across the southern border as criminals, and plan to sort out the innocent later. If one comes asking for asylum, it costs no more money, and probably less, to treat them as if they are being honest. Keep the families together. Once they find a family is NOT being honest, but is trying to come in illegally, or under a subterfuge, we deport them all at once. As a family.

No reason not to.

Glen Longino
06-18-2018, 03:25 PM
It is not 'presumption of guilt' it is everyone starts at the same level of entry requirements and it progresses from there.

You haven't seen the trials and tribulations that people (in the Caribbean) have to go through to apply for a Visa at the Embassy in Barbados (Yes, one has to fly to the Embassy in Barbados for a face-to-face meeting) to visit the US - not a green card or visa to work - but a straight forward visa to visit.

By the way, there is no legal right to receive a visa (to any country).

The US government treats everyone as potential illegals/terrorists/whatever. However that is not a condemnation. It is what they have to do, treat everyone the same. One cannot try and differentiate between applicants.

Illegals should not be given preferential treatment or 'fast tracking' to enter a country.

Typical of you to defend the imprisonment and separation of minor children.
Shame on you!

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 03:33 PM
Something that happened 79 years ago really, five years ago your country was granting citizenship to terrorists... Name one terrorist that was knowingly granted citizenship by St.Kitts & Nevis.

What you are now comparing the massive United States of America to the smallest country in the Western Hemisphere. WOW. Way to go. Y>

BTW Apparently it was a USA company that was employed to do the due diligence on applicant at that time. Can't trust anyone these days can you.


Slight digression :ycool:
Nevertheless the people voted that Administration out and have revised the criteria, and now:

ST KITTS AND NEVIS LEADS IN DUE DILIGENCE, NEW CITIZENSHIP BY INVESTMENT INDEX FINDS

The St Kitts and Nevis Programme was pitted against the 11 other countries that populate the CBI industry, and finished on top in four out of the seven components tested, including due diligence, speed and ease of processing applications, and mandatory travel or residence requirements.The seven components (referred to as ‘pillars’ in the report) were used to rank countries based on variables such as freedom of movement, standard of living, and whether an applicant must adhere to a mandatory period of residence in his or her country of choice.
St Kitts and Nevis rated the highest in due diligence owing to its strict parameters around vetting a potential applicant, which includes collaborating with international partners and non-governmental organisations to perform thorough on-the-ground and online checks of the applicant.

Osborne Russell
06-18-2018, 03:34 PM
US policy -- deliberate non-policy if you insist -- for more than half a century now has been drawing families to die of thirst in the desert, be robbed and murdered, suffocated in tank trucks, etc. The nation has profited enormously from it. Did no humanitarian voices reach the various administrations, of either party, through all that time? Why not? Why hasn't the entire phenomenon been condemned as inhumane, right down to today?

The current wrinkle is just a wrinkle. OK, they quit separating families. Then what, back to the status quo?

Massive illegal immigration has to be stopped like slavery had to be stopped. The economy has come to be based on it, and the longer we wait, the more painful to destroy that basis and build another.

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 03:39 PM
Typical of you to defend the imprisonment and separation of minor children.
Shame on you!

Please read my post # 24, before you make unsubstantial and false accusations [For your ease of reference i repost it here] :


[QUOTE]In Texas' Rio Grande Valley, the busiest corridor for people trying to enter the U.S., Border Patrol officials argue that they have to crack down on migrants and separate adults from children as a deterrent to others."When you exempt a group of people from the law ... that creates a draw," said Manuel Padilla, the Border Patrol's chief agent here. "That creates the trends right here."
Agents running the holding facility — generally known as "Ursula" for the name of the street it's on — said everyone detained is given adequate food, access to showers and laundered clothes, and medical care. People are supposed to move through the facility quickly. Under U.S. law, children are required to be turned over within three days to shelters funded by the Department of Health and Human Services.
Padilla said agents in the Rio Grande Valley have allowed families with children under the age of 5 to stay together in most cases.[/QUOTE
I do not agree with 'reason' bold in the C&P above. There should be areas so that family units are together before deportation. The font size in some sections has been enlarged for those with apparent vision defects.

PS I don't expect you will make a retraction or apology.

John of Phoenix
06-18-2018, 03:40 PM
Just for the sake of discussion, we COULD keep all the families together and if they came here illegally deport the entire family together. In the long run it would cost less money and be far more humane.

It's not like what we're doing is the only option, and there is absolutely no law that demands we handle it as we are.Money is no object and "humane" went out with rendition, waterboarding, Abu Ghraib, and, most recently, the confirmation of Gina Haspel.

John of Phoenix
06-18-2018, 03:45 PM
Why are reds such snowflakes?

:D LMAO :D

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 03:48 PM
No sir! It is a presumption of guilt when they treat everyone coming across the southern border as criminals, and plan to sort out the innocent later. If one comes asking for asylum, it costs no more money, and probably less, to treat them as if they are being honest. Keep the families together. Once they find a family is NOT being honest, but is trying to come in illegally, or under a subterfuge, we deport them all at once. As a family.

No reason not to. Then it is a presumption of guilt for all applicants for a visa.
There is a legal way to apply for a visa.

If one comes across the the southern border (or any border) illegally then that is criminal.

I refer you to my Post # 24.


Once they find a family is NOT being honest, but is trying to come in illegally, or under a subterfuge, we deport them all at once. As a family.

No reason not to.

It probably takes a little time determine and process who is NOT being honest and trying to come in illegally or under a subterfuge before they are deported. There is a procedure.

Under U.S. law, children are required to be turned over within three days to shelters funded by the Department of Health and Human Services. Padilla said agents in the Rio Grande Valley have allowed families with children under the age of 5 to stay together in most cases. http://www.citizentribune.com/news/national/hundreds-of-children-wait-in-border-patrol-facility-in-texas/article_b30b576e-6043-56f7-bf6a-1f9055915aee.html

John of Phoenix
06-18-2018, 03:53 PM
Give it up guys. Nothing gets inside the bubble. You're just feeding the troll.

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 03:57 PM
Give it up guys. Nothing gets inside the bubble. You're just feeding the troll.


They're just 'chain link walls'.

https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5b27b2612000006505b94aaa.jpeg?ops=scalefit_720_nou pscale

Oh dear Norman, you an/or your thread is being call a troll. :ycool:

Glen Longino
06-18-2018, 03:59 PM
Is anyone here convinced that this crapshoot is making America Great Again?

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 04:03 PM
Is anyone here convinced that this crapshoot is making America Great Again?
judging by your post one would expect you did not read #24 or #61 and lack of reply thereto. :d

Joe (SoCal)
06-18-2018, 04:31 PM
Unfortunately according to a new Quinnipiac poll 53% of Trump's base approves of this type of child abuse

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/18/17475740/family-separation-poll-polling-border-trump-children-immigrant-families-parents

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 04:35 PM
FROM POST #59


http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Chris Smith porter maine http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png
(http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=5595577#post5595577)Something that happened 79 years ago really, five years ago your country was granting citizenship to terrorists...Name one terrorist that was knowingly granted citizenship by St.Kitts & Nevis.

What you are now comparing the massive United States of America to the smallest country in the Western Hemisphere. WOW. Way to go. Y>

BTW Apparently it was a USA company that was employed to do the due diligence on applicant at that time. Can't trust anyone these days can you.


Slight digression :ycool:
Nevertheless the people voted that Administration out and have revised the criteria, and now:

ST KITTS AND NEVIS LEADS IN DUE DILIGENCE, NEW CITIZENSHIP BY INVESTMENT INDEX FINDS

The St Kitts and Nevis Programme was pitted against the 11 other countries that populate the CBI industry, and finished on top in four out of the seven components tested, including due diligence, speed and ease of processing applications, and mandatory travel or residence requirements.The seven components (referred to as ‘pillars’ in the report) were used to rank countries based on variables such as freedom of movement, standard of living, and whether an applicant must adhere to a mandatory period of residence in his or her country of choice.
St Kitts and Nevis rated the highest in due diligence owing to its strict parameters around vetting a potential applicant, which includes collaborating with international partners and non-governmental organisations to perform thorough on-the-ground and online checks of the applicant.

What happened Chris, do you just like to sling mud and false accusations at my country ?


Shame on you if you do.

S.V. Airlie
06-18-2018, 04:37 PM
Well, look at the bright side, Trump's cell is just a tad smaller than the cages he's putting these kids in.

Chris Smith porter maine
06-18-2018, 04:42 PM
Name one terrorist that was knowingly granted citizenship by St.Kitts & Nevis.

What you are now comparing the massive United States of America to the smallest country in the Western Hemisphere. WOW. Way to go. Y>

BTW Apparently it was a USA company that was employed to do the due diligence on applicant at that time. Can't trust anyone these days can you.

Iran is a terrorist country, just ask your right wing brethren, you sell passports to Iranians apparently you derive 40% of your national budget doing so

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/60-minutes-citizenship-passport-international-industry/


https://thenewtoday.gd/editorials/2013/12/05/consequences-selling-passports/#gsc.tab=0


Evidently you can buy diplomatic passports for a cool million with get out of jail free card protection.
So you want to trash my country by comparing us to Iran or Greece, you want to bring up a 79 year old horror, might want to board up the glass house.

John Smith
06-18-2018, 04:48 PM
US policy -- deliberate non-policy if you insist -- for more than half a century now has been drawing families to die of thirst in the desert, be robbed and murdered, suffocated in tank trucks, etc. The nation has profited enormously from it. Did no humanitarian voices reach the various administrations, of either party, through all that time? Why not? Why hasn't the entire phenomenon been condemned as inhumane, right down to today?

The current wrinkle is just a wrinkle. OK, they quit separating families. Then what, back to the status quo?

Massive illegal immigration has to be stopped like slavery had to be stopped. The economy has come to be based on it, and the longer we wait, the more painful to destroy that basis and build another.

I was under the impression that illegal immigration is way down.

Peerie Maa
06-18-2018, 04:48 PM
Unfortunately according to a new Quinnipiac poll 53% of Trump's base approves of this type of child abuse

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/18/17475740/family-separation-poll-polling-border-trump-children-immigrant-families-parents

Just watched a report on this on the BeeB news, including a debunking of Dolt 45's lie about Germany's crime rate.
What I find sad and sickening is that there are Americans willing to carry out this cruel and immoral policy on the ground.

John Smith
06-18-2018, 04:49 PM
Money is no object and "humane" went out with rendition, waterboarding, Abu Ghraib, and, most recently, the confirmation of Gina Haspel.

Guess I went away for a moment, as Kotter used to say.

John Smith
06-18-2018, 04:50 PM
Then it is a presumption of guilt for all applicants for a visa.
There is a legal way to apply for a visa.

If one comes across the the southern border (or any border) illegally then that is criminal.

I refer you to my Post # 24.



It probably takes a little time determine and process who is NOT being honest and trying to come in illegally or under a subterfuge before they are deported. There is a procedure.



There's a legal way to ask for asylum, but this administration is ignoring it.

John Smith
06-18-2018, 04:51 PM
Then it is a presumption of guilt for all applicants for a visa.
There is a legal way to apply for a visa.

If one comes across the the southern border (or any border) illegally then that is criminal.

I refer you to my Post # 24.



It probably takes a little time determine and process who is NOT being honest and trying to come in illegally or under a subterfuge before they are deported. There is a procedure.



That's someone saying this is US law, not the law itself.

Peerie Maa
06-18-2018, 04:54 PM
Then it is a presumption of guilt for all applicants for a visa.
There is a legal way to apply for a visa.

If one comes across the the southern border (or any border) illegally then that is criminal.

I refer you to my Post # 24.



It probably takes a little time determine and process who is NOT being honest and trying to come in illegally or under a subterfuge before they are deported. There is a procedure.



From the other thread

we cannot be complicit

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/how-you-can-fight-family-separation-at-the-border.html

Next: Which groups to support.

• The ACLU is litigating this policy in California.

• If you’re an immigration lawyer, the American Immigration Lawyers Association will be sending around a volunteer list for you to help represent the women and men with their asylum screening, bond hearings, ongoing asylum representation, etc. Please sign up.

• Al Otro Lado is a binational organization that works to offer legal services to deportees and migrants in Tijuana, Mexico, including deportee parents whose children remain in the U.S.

• CARA—a consortium of the Catholic Legal Immigration Network, the American Immigration Council, the Refugee and Immigrant Center for Education and Legal Services, and the American Immigration Lawyers Association—provides legal services at family detention centers.

• The Florence Project is an Arizona project offering free legal services to men, women, and unaccompanied children in immigration custody.

• Human Rights First is a national organization with roots in Houston that needs help from lawyers too.

• Kids in Need of Defense works to ensure that kids do not appear in immigration court without representation, and to lobby for policies that advocate for children’s legal interests. Donate here.


• The Legal Aid Justice Center is a Virginia-based center providing unaccompanied minors legal services and representation.

• Pueblo Sin Fronteras is an organization that provides humanitarian aid and shelter to migrants on their way to the U.S.

• RAICES is the largest immigration nonprofit in Texas offering free and low-cost legal services to immigrant children and families. Donate here and sign up as a volunteer here.

• The Texas Civil Rights Project is seeking “volunteers who speak Spanish, Mam, Q’eqchi’ or K’iche’ and have paralegal or legal assistant experience.”

• Together Rising is another Virginia-based organization that’s helping provide legal assistance for 60 migrant children who were separated from their parents and are currently detained in Arizona.

• The Urban Justice Center’s Asylum Seeker Advocacy Project is working to keep families together.

• Women’s Refugee Commission advocates for the rights and protection of women, children, and youth fleeing violence and persecution.

• Finally, ActBlue has aggregated many of these groups under a single button.

This list isn’t comprehensive, so let us know what else is happening. And please call your elected officials, stay tuned for demonstrations, hug your children, and be grateful if you are not currently dependent on the basic humanity of U.S. policy.

A lot of US citizens are standing up to be counted.

Joe (SoCal)
06-18-2018, 04:59 PM
Listen to Children Who’ve Just Been Separated From Their Parents at the Border
This is VERY HARD TO LISTEN TOO :(

My Soul Hurts :(

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2018/06/children-separated-parents-border-audio-1/

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 04:59 PM
From the other thread


A lot of US citizens are standing up to be counted. And so they should stand up for families to be kept together.

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 05:18 PM
Iran is a terrorist country, just ask your right wing brethren, you sell passports to Iranians apparently you derive 40% of your national budget doing so

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/60-minutes-citizenship-passport-international-industry/

https://thenewtoday.gd/editorials/2013/12/05/consequences-selling-passports/#gsc.tab=0


In your definition, or that of the UN, what is a terrorist country?

Since you state that Iran is a terrorist country, are ALL persons in Iran terrorists? A simple YES/NO will suffice.

General elections were held in Saint Kitts and Nevis on 16 February 2015. The people spoke and the then ruling [LEFT WING] Saint Kitts and Nevis Labour Party, led by Prime Minister Denzil Douglas (currently now in Court - case brought by Attorney General - for having a Dominican CD passport while being a member of Parliament), was defeated by the Team Unity party.

Anyway it was a previous corrupt administration, however new Govt and new more stringent requirements are in place includes collaborating with international partners and non-governmental organisations.



So you want to trash my country by comparing us to Iran or Greece, you want to bring up a 79 year old horror, might want to board up the glass house.

Did I compare your country? Did I trash your Country? No, I did not. I said "elsewhere" showing that 'immigrants' were treated much worse than in the USA.
Yes I agree it was a horror, has much changed (under this administration or the last one) ?

You, on the other hand, declared and stated as fact that my country is selling passports to terrorists.

So I repeat 'Name one terrorist that was knowingly granted citizenship by St.Kitts & Nevis'.
OK, name TWO then?

AussieBarney
06-18-2018, 05:21 PM
I wonder how far it is to the "Showers"

Joe (SoCal)
06-18-2018, 05:25 PM
So I repeat Name one terrorist that was knowingly granted citizenship by St.Kitts & Nevis.


The jury is still out Rum

Mohamed Atta was here perfectly legaly - up untill he comited his one and only terrorist act.

On March 22, 2000, Atta was still in Germany when he sent an e-mail to the Academy of Lakeland in Florida. He inquired about flight training, "Dear sir, we are a small group of young men from different Arab countries. Now, we are living in Germany since a while for study purposes. We would like to start training for the career of airline professional pilots. In this field, we haven't yet any knowledge but we are ready to undergo an intensive training program (up to ATP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_Transport_Pilot_Licence) and eventually higher)." Atta sent 50–60 similar e-mails to other flight training schools in the United States.[55] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Atta#cite_note-moussaoui-march7-55)
On May 17, Atta applied for a United States visa. The next day, he received a five-year B-1/B-2 (tourist/business) visa from the United States embassy in Berlin. Atta had lived in Germany for approximately five years and also had a "strong record as a student". He was therefore treated favorably and not scrutinized.[56] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Atta#cite_note-travel-56) After obtaining his visa, Atta took a bus on June 2 from Hamburg to Prague (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague) where he stayed overnight before traveling on to the United States the next day.

Keith Wilson
06-18-2018, 05:33 PM
Oh, for the love of God, what does St. Kitts' visa policy have to do with anything? http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 05:37 PM
The jury is still out Rum That may the case but to my knowledge no terrorist has been granted St.Kitts citizenship.


Mr Chris Smith porter maine's statement that :



http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Chris Smith porter mainehttp://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png
(http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=5595577#post5595577)
Something that happened 79 years ago really, five years ago your country was granting citizenship to terrorists

. . . is not true.


It was deliberately made up to sling mud to try and justify his attack.


So I repeat, Chris : Name one terrorist that was knowingly granted citizenship by St.Kitts & Nevis.



BTW Chris : As far as I have found it was a US specialist Company that was employed to carry out due diligence. Can't trust anyone these days can you?

oznabrag
06-18-2018, 05:43 PM
. . .

Isn't there a significant difference between one who is 'Undocumented' and apprehended and one that is 'seeking refugee asylum'?

There used to be until the Child Abuser In Chief decided to treat them all the same, presuming guilt.

If the person is applying for asylum, they USED TO be treated as such until if/when they were discovered to be simply trying to game the system. Then, and only then, were the families torn apart, the adults jailed, and the children placed in foster care.

NOW, the inhuman monsters in charge of these things simply assume every little brown person at the border is a cheat and a scammer, so they abuse the kids and the parents.


It is not 'presumption of guilt' it is everyone starts at the same level of entry requirements and it progresses from there.

You haven't seen the trials and tribulations that people (in the Caribbean) have to go through to apply for a Visa at the Embassy in Barbados (Yes, one has to fly to the Embassy in Barbados for a face-to-face meeting) to visit the US - not a green card or visa to work - but a straight forward visa to visit.

By the way, there is no legal right to receive a visa (to any country).

The US government treats everyone as potential illegals/terrorists/whatever. However that is not a condemnation. It is what they have to do, treat everyone the same. One cannot try and differentiate between applicants.

Illegals should not be given preferential treatment or 'fast tracking' to enter a country.

This post doen't even deserve a response.

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 05:43 PM
Oh, for the love of God, what does St. Kitts' visa policy have to do with anything? http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Because according to 'CSpm' I compared the USA to Greece etc, but read my posts and you will see that is not so. Also because I referred to the jews on the ship that were turned away by the US

Nevertheless and therefore he decided to do an all out deflection attack on my posts and my country. :ycool:
That is the full extent on 'what does St. Kitts' visa policy have to do with anything'.:D

Chris Smith porter maine
06-18-2018, 05:46 PM
That may the case but to my knowledge no terrorist has been granted St.Kitts citizenship.


Mr Chris Smith porter maine's statement that :



. . . is not true.


It was deliberately made up to sling mud to try and justify his attack.


So I repeat, Chris : Name one terrorist that was knowingly granted citizenship by St.Kitts & Nevis.



BTW Chris : As far as I have found it was a US specialist Company that was employed to carry out due diligence. Can't trust anyone these days can you?

OK your right rum, st Kitts sells passports and diplomatic credentials to people who launder money for terrorists, feel better now?

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 05:55 PM
If the person is applying for asylum, they USED TO be treated as such until if/when they were discovered to be simply trying to game the system. Then, and only then, were the families torn apart, the adults jailed, and the children placed in foster care.So that was justified then?



There used to be until the Child Abuser In Chief decided to treat them all the same, presuming guilt.

If the person is applying for asylum, they USED TO be treated as such until if/when they were discovered to be simply trying to game the system. Then, and only then, were the families torn apart, the adults jailed, and the children placed in foster care.

NOW, the inhuman monsters in charge of these things simply assume every little brown person at the border is a cheat and a scammer, so they abuse the kids and the parents.
I do believe that I have mentioned before (Post#24?) that I do not agree with children being separated from their parents.


NOW, the inhuman monsters in charge of these things simply assume every little brown person at the border is a cheat and a scammer, so they abuse the kids and the parents. Do the authorities in the USA actually 'abuse' the kids and the parents at the border?
Do the authorities in the USA actually 'abuse' the ones that are apprehended having crossed it illegally?


This post doen't even deserve a response. Correct, it is accurate and does not require a response.

Chris Smith porter maine
06-18-2018, 05:57 PM
Oh, for the love of God, what does St. Kitts' visa policy have to do with anything? http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

OK let's get back to it, I'm sure there are some exceptions, but I fail to see why these families can't be kept together and deported as a family unit, it would send the same message and hopefully traumatize a thousand less kids a month, not great but it would send the same message with a lot less pain.

S.V. Airlie
06-18-2018, 05:57 PM
Who the heck wants to go to St. Kitts, you live there RP:D

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 06:21 PM
OK your right rum, st Kitts sells passports and diplomatic credentials to people who launder money for terrorists, feel better now?


So what you wrote was a lie. :confused:

You also quoted https://thenewtoday.gd/editorials/2013/12/05/consequences-selling-passports/#gsc.tab=0 which also states "What seems to be emerging is that some Caribbean politicians in government have been abusing the sale of passports for their own personal aggrandizement." lt appears to apply to one individual our former PM.

The link you posted has a number of shortciomings

EG "The business was born here in St. Kitts when Chris Kalin struck a deal with the government a decade ago following the collapse of the islands’ sugar industry."
Not true. CBIP started in 1984, Sugar industry stopped here in 2005.


Immigrant Investor Programmes have been in existence since the 1980’s starting with the St. Kitts and Nevis Citizenship by Investment Programme (CBIP), which was established in 1984 (just one year after St. Kitts and Nevis obtained Independence), with a view to accelerating growth and development in the fledgling nation. Since then numerous countries have followed suit in pursuit of various economic objectives. For instance, Canada launched its Immigrant Investor Programme in 1986 with the aim of “having experienced business people contribute to Canada’s growth and long-term prosperity by investing in Canada’s prosperity.” Similarly, according to the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) the Investor Immigrant Program in the United States, also known as EB-5, “was created by Congress in 1990 to stimulate the US Economy through job creation and capital investment by foreign investors.” Under the EB-5 programme of the United States the minimum qualifying investment is US$1 million but this amount would be cut in half, to US$500,000, if the investment is in a High Employment or Rural Area.http://oecsbusinessfocus.com/citizenship-by-investment-the-case-of-st-kitts-and-nevis/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-citizenship-passport-international-industry/

The island nation drew the ire of the U.S. Treasury Department two years ago after three suspected Iranian operatives were caught using their St. Kitts passports to launder money for banks in Tehran in violation of U.S. sanctions.

Oh they were laundering money for banks to get around US sanctions, so thus upset the US Treasury not the Defense Dept or Homeland Security etc.

So banks are terrorists????.

Apparently even the link you quote states that they were NOT laundering money for terrorists, but for banks.


You can't stop slinging mud at my country by stating untruths* can you? :rolleyes:


* I am being very diplomatic here.


It is now abundantly clear that you are simply trying to divert attention from the shortcomings of the USA by attacking the smallest country in the Western Hemisphere with misstatements and falsehoods. LOL Well done, congratulations.Y>

However many posters on this very forum are doing a heck of a job denigrating and disparaging your country, the USA.
Most of them, if not all that are doing too are blues/left wingers/Democrats. :DLOL:d

Will you take any pot shots at them or take them to task? Nah, I doubt that.

You still have not named one terrorist that was knowingly granted citizenship by St.Kitts & Nevis?

Mike drop !

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 06:25 PM
Who the heck wants to go to St. Kitts, you live there RP:D

Well in 2016, St. Kitts and Nevis welcomed 114,000 tourists. More than double the population. ;)

I agree, they did not all come to see me. :ycool:

Steve McMahon
06-18-2018, 06:35 PM
I wonder how far it is to the "Showers"
Indeed

Joe (SoCal)
06-18-2018, 06:45 PM
I wonder how far it is to the "Showers"

They are already using that ploy. There are reports that ICE officials are taking children saying they are going to give them showers as a ply to get the children from the parents without reveling their true motives.


public defender in McAllen says some migrants are told their kids are going to be taken away briefly to bathe, and then it dawns on them hours later they aren't coming back

https://www.inquisitr.com/4936418/migrants-told-their-children-are-being-taken-away-briefly-to-bathe-then-separated-permanently-report-claims/

Joe (SoCal)
06-18-2018, 06:48 PM
https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35481293_1356193211191562_3603598546277761024_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=AeFofqQ1KMxZ9JEfx0HpGO65LUJEalkXJr65Kcq2B 3HNDDCSkLwhhQPybHR2en1hvzkcgHYJ5DH08EpcZ7IoV9IHmeL K6oJiQhUJ-DvgtbONgQ&oh=363d4d6d56fb2c6bb0d9caea7f8f7a48&oe=5BEC6134

oznabrag
06-18-2018, 06:49 PM
So that was justified then?


No. USED TO BE that if you were caught trying to enter illegally, the BP put you and your child on a bus back to Mexico. Only in aggravated cases did the parent get put in jail. You really want to put kids in adult jail populations?

It's worse than I thought.


I do believe that I have mentioned before (Post#24?) that I do not agree with children being separated from their parents.

Except that you do.



Do the authorities in the USA actually 'abuse' the kids and the parents at the border?

Uh, yes. Ask any child psychologist you happen to see if forcibly removing a child from its parent has the potential to cause irreparable harm to the child, or even the parent.

Knowing you are doing harm to a child and continuing to harm that child is abusive.

And evil.




Correct, it is accurate and does not require a response.

Incorrect.

It is inaccurate.

It is inaccurate because you were arguing from ignorance.

The same ignorance you yourself asserted when you asked


http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=5595571#post5595571)
. . .

Isn't there a significant difference between one who is 'Undocumented' and apprehended and one that is 'seeking refugee asylum'?



Before you could even get an answer you plowed on ahead:



http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=5595579#post5595579)
It is not 'presumption of guilt' it is everyone starts at the same level of entry requirements and it progresses from there.

You haven't seen the trials and tribulations that people (in the Caribbean) have to go through to apply for a Visa at the Embassy in Barbados (Yes, one has to fly to the Embassy in Barbados for a face-to-face meeting) to visit the US - not a green card or visa to work - but a straight forward visa to visit.

By the way, there is no legal right to receive a visa (to any country).

The US government treats everyone as potential illegals/terrorists/whatever. However that is not a condemnation. It is what they have to do, treat everyone the same. One cannot try and differentiate between applicants.

Illegals should not be given preferential treatment or 'fast tracking' to enter a country.





It is INDEED 'presumption of guilt'.

These children have come to the US with their parents seeking asylum.

Sessions presumes they are all trying to game the system and throws them in jail, taking their kids away.



I really don't expect you to grasp this, but that is why this is suddenly an issue.

A change in policy from 'Light of the World' to spithole banana republic.


I'm sure you're pleased.

Art Haberland
06-18-2018, 07:14 PM
Just for the sake of discussion, we COULD keep all the families together and if they came here illegally deport the entire family together. In the long run it would cost less money and be far more humane.

makes me wonder if somebody is making money off of "warehousing" these kids

S.V. Airlie
06-18-2018, 07:19 PM
makes me wonder if somebody is making money off of "warehousing" these kidsYup, there is. Mentioned the name today on CNN with a blurb about it. Arizona Sun something.A for profit group. Was not impressed with what I saw.

Keith Wilson
06-18-2018, 07:22 PM
makes me wonder if somebody is making money off of "warehousing" these kidsCould be, but that's minor. It's hostage-taking, a bargaining chip for Trump, and deliberate gratuitous cruelty to get the 'base' all hot and aroused. Remember that Trump admires bullies, and that 'tough' is his most complimentary adjective. I didn't realize he was quite this much of an inhuman monster, but it's now about as clear as it can be. The only consolation is that it will probably backfire badly. At the very least it will absolutely guarantee that nobody named Dominguez will vote Republican for probably two generations.

Art Haberland
06-18-2018, 07:23 PM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/two-thirds-of-americans-say-separating-children-parents-at-border-unacceptable/

Mike V.
06-18-2018, 07:42 PM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/two-thirds-of-americans-say-separating-children-parents-at-border-unacceptable/

But only 39% of Republicans consider it unacceptable.

LeeG
06-18-2018, 07:46 PM
But only 39% of Republicans consider it unacceptable.

morality is now a partisan issue.

StevenBauer
06-18-2018, 07:47 PM
https://i.imgur.com/2qhEVJ6.jpg

Osborne Russell
06-18-2018, 07:47 PM
makes me wonder if somebody is making money off of "warehousing" these kids

And kicking back to the appropriate people.

Joe (SoCal)
06-18-2018, 08:07 PM
https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35565558_10156731992689255_8062372076721274880_o.j pg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=AeHimfYgAavaYEI15S_hU6AjxayLoXkOtcDOF2fqH CgmgwyD_rwO6bqi4chkL4hfOg-kcTpIMTiepAw5ltrwdo1_BlAQWzhHK6cH_s054yVYTw&oh=e58b088335ad7340d7b817ac0184b528&oe=5BA7920B

Art Haberland
06-18-2018, 08:36 PM
17987

LeeG
06-18-2018, 08:44 PM
Deplorable

Duncan Gibbs
06-18-2018, 08:47 PM
Could be, but that's minor. It's hostage-taking, a bargaining chip for Trump, and deliberate gratuitous cruelty to get the 'base' all hot and aroused. Remember that Trump admires bullies, and that 'tough' is his most complimentary adjective. I didn't realize he was quite this much of an inhuman monster, but it's now about as clear as it can be. The only consolation is that it will probably backfire badly. At the very least it will absolutely guarantee that nobody named Dominguez will vote Republican for probably two generations.
Keith, he's a Nazi. As far as I'm concerned anyone following his orders has no defence a-la Nuremberg. These are human rights crimes and should be prosecuted as such, as Session's directive isn't a law and that makes him responsible for this mass child abuse.

Lock 'em up!

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 08:48 PM
Except that you do.

A change in policy from 'Light of the World' to spithole banana republic.


I'm sure you're pleased.

Wrong so wrong, You try to tell me what I believe when I have just stated that I do NOT agree with children being separated from their parents.

That is your view of your country not mine. So you are wrong again about my being pleased. Such things affect me and also the $ in my pocket when the mighty greenback decreases in value.

It is therefore no reason to discuss anything further with you as you only want to believe what you want to believe. Rather sad.

TomF
06-18-2018, 08:53 PM
BTW, shouldn't there be some camera footage of girls who have been separated from their families? We have seen only little boys - but the Trump talking boors are often trying to inject the horror of human trafficking for the sex trade as a justification of taking this zero tolerance line. Conway said it several times to Cuomo tonight.

So, is access to the girls prohibited, while access to the boys is somehow thought to be less optically terrible?

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 09:02 PM
BTW, shouldn't there be some camera footage of girls who have been separated from their families? We have seen only little boys - but the Trump talking boors are often trying to inject the horror of human trafficking for the sex trade as a justification of taking this zero tolerance line. Conway said it several times to Cuomo tonight.

So, is access to the girls prohibited, while access to the boys is somehow thought to be less optically terrible?
yes most definitely. IIRC most of the young children refugee pictures in Europe appear to be twenty odd year old men with no women or female children in site. ��

Durnik
06-18-2018, 09:09 PM
The only consolation is that it will probably backfire badly. At the very least it will absolutely guarantee that nobody named Dominguez will vote Republican for probably two generations.

You said that two years ago.. Hispanics are mostly Catholic.. and conservative. 'Burning in the firey pits of (even an imagined) hell' is worse than deportation/prison. For many (most?), ideology trumps (sorry) reason. Look! Even libs are doing it!

When will we ever learn, when will we ev - er.. learn.

TXdoug
06-18-2018, 09:13 PM
Cage um up in Tornillo works for Rummy.

My Spanish ist nicht so gut but I'm thinking tornillo Rummy.

I don't mean that as a personal attack just some comic relief for all that have suffered through this thresad.

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 09:29 PM
... :confused:

LeeG
06-18-2018, 09:34 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidCornDC/status/1008832077444321283

Trump praises a dictator for using death camps and forced starvation.

No one in the White House resigns.

Trump administration separates children, puts them in cages, and then lies about the policy.

No one in the White House resigns

Rum_Pirate
06-18-2018, 09:39 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidCornDC/status/1008832077444321283

Trump praises a dictator for using death camps and forced starvation.

No one in the White House resigns.

Trump administration separates children, puts them in cages, and then lies about the policy.

No one in the White House resigns got a link to where Mr Trump Trump praises a dictator for using death camps and forced starvation ?

LeeG
06-18-2018, 09:55 PM
got a link to where Mr Trump Trump praises a dictator for using death camps and forced starvation ?

oh clever man.

hawkeye54
06-19-2018, 01:00 AM
Did Jefferson Sessions overlook or forget about the passage in his Bible, which says you should not visit the sins of the father upon the children??


Just asking

Glen Longino
06-19-2018, 01:14 AM
Wrong so wrong, You try to tell me what I believe when I have just stated that I do NOT agree with children being separated from their parents.

That is your view of your country not mine. So you are wrong again about my being pleased. Such things affect me and also the $ in my pocket when the mighty greenback decreases in value.

It is therefore no reason to discuss anything further with you as you only want to believe what you want to believe. Rather sad.

Aw c'mon Rum, admit you support and praise right wing BS routinely.
Then when the results of right wing BS turns nasty you deny any part in it.
Try not to be a hypocrite!

sleek
06-19-2018, 04:12 AM
Better in a fenced room to be properly processed than an obama sex slave.

https://steadfastandloyal.com/social-issues/left-attacks-heighten-against-trump-as-more-details-emerge-about-family-separation-at-border/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=subscriber_id:874963&utm_campaign=Left Claims Trump Turns Children Into Hostages - Forget That Obama Turned Them Into Sex Slaves

sleek
06-19-2018, 04:13 AM
Did Jefferson Sessions overlook or forget about the passage in his Bible, which says you should not visit the sins of the father upon the children??


Just asking

That would end a lot of problems

Duncan Gibbs
06-19-2018, 05:25 AM
^ The same logic sent Jewish kids to extermination camps. You may not be as extreme, but the logic is the same.

Depends what you class as a "problem". I'd say low birth rates in the USA is a problem, and your country needs immigrants and their children.

sleek
06-19-2018, 05:58 AM
^ The same logic sent Jewish kids to extermination camps. You may not be as extreme, but the logic is the same.

Depends what you class as a "problem". I'd say low birth rates in the USA is a problem, and your country needs immigrants and their children.

We wouldnt NEED imigrants and their children if we would stop using planned parenthood to kill our own.

Rum_Pirate
06-19-2018, 06:40 AM
Aw c'mon Rum, admit you support and praise right wing BS routinely.
Then when the results of right wing BS turns nasty you deny any part in it.
Try not to be a hypocrite! LOL.
You appear to have a problem reading my posts. Apparently believing what others falsely say I stand for even when I have just stated my position to the contrary on a subject.
Go ahead believe in fake news, lies etc. BTW think what that makes you sound like.

TomF
06-19-2018, 06:46 AM
We wouldnt NEED imigrants and their children if we would stop using planned parenthood to kill our own.

Uhm, there isn't a single technologically advanced country on earth with a birth rate at "maintenance" levels. Not one.

You can feel about that as you wish, but abortion is not the key driver of that demographic reality. Anywhere.

sleek
06-19-2018, 07:36 AM
Uhm, there isn't a single technologically advanced country on earth with a birth rate at "maintenance" levels. Not one.

You can feel about that as you wish, but abortion is not the key driver of that demographic reality. Anywhere.

Ok, i will say that sounds plausible. So, with however millions of babies are killed off a year, it may not be a driving factor, but it is hurting.

Keith Wilson
06-19-2018, 07:54 AM
No sir. Embryos and fetuses are not 'babies'. And if you want to argue about abortion, please, please, take it to anther thread; that's just about guaranteed to blow up this one.

Rum_Pirate
06-19-2018, 07:55 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidCornDC/status/1008832077444321283

Trump praises a dictator for using death camps and forced starvation.

No one in the White House resigns.

Trump administration separates children, puts them in cages, and then lies about the policy.

No one in the White House resigns


got a link to where Mr Trump Trump praises a dictator for using death camps and forced starvation ?


oh clever man.

It would appear that you don't.

I would liked to have read it.

C'est la vie. Y:o

Keith Wilson
06-19-2018, 07:56 AM
A more accurate statement would be 'Trump praises a dictator who uses death camps and forced starvation'.

LeeG
06-19-2018, 08:11 AM
We wouldnt NEED imigrants and their children if we would stop using planned parenthood to kill our own.

you are not a “we” when it comes to claiming women’s reproductive capability as your own. Thx for the reminder.

https://www.weareplannedparenthood.org/onlineactions/2U7UN1iNhESWUfDs4gDPNg2?sourceid=1000063

LeeG
06-19-2018, 08:14 AM
It would appear that you don't.

I would liked to have read it.

C'est la vie. Y:o

I would like the GOP to embrace family values.

LeeG
06-19-2018, 08:18 AM
A more accurate statement would be 'Trump praises a dictator who uses death camps and forced starvation'.

And the GOP leaders in Congress are complicit

Norman Bernstein
06-19-2018, 08:28 AM
This expresses exactly how I feel about all of this:

https://scontent.fbos1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35294586_10215208887508005_1047520176779558912_o.j pg?_nc_cat=0&oh=038c2549aa75c5e478006c13b2e4cd09&oe=5BA00B9D

S.V. Airlie
06-19-2018, 08:33 AM
We should send the Statue of Liberty back to France with a note: Sorry, we are not worthy of this to grace our shores as it no longer represents the USA!

Art Haberland
06-19-2018, 08:37 AM
Ok, i will say that sounds plausible. So, with however millions of babies are killed off a year, it may not be a driving factor, but it is hurting.

According to the CDC (I know, a swamp monster) we have had 45 million abortions since 1970. The last year I can find numbers for is 2014 and there were exactly 652,639 abortions. The worst year was 1990 when 1,429,247 abortions occurred.

Hardly millions a year.

And to be honest, I am not sure what is more heartless. Destroying fetuses and embryos or forcing millions of people who could have been born to a lifetime of low income and back breaking work.

Tom Montgomery
06-19-2018, 08:38 AM
A more accurate statement would be 'Trump praises a dictator who uses death camps and forced starvation'.
During an interview with Fox News' Brett Baier:


BAIER: He [Kim Jong Un] is a killer.

TRUMP: He's a tough guy. When you take over a country, a tough country, tough people — and you take it over from your father — I don't care who you are, what you are, how much of an advantage you have. If you can do that at 27 years old, that's one in 10,000 who could do that. So he's a very smart guy. He's a great negotiator. But I think we understand each other.

BAIER: But he's still done some really bad things.

TRUMP: Yeah, but so have a lot of other people done some really bad things. I could go through a lot of nations where a lot of bad things were done.
And we can now add Donald Trump and the United States of America to that list.

Rum_Pirate
06-19-2018, 08:40 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidCornDC/status/1008832077444321283

Trump praises a dictator for using death camps and forced starvation.

No one in the White House resigns.

Trump administration separates children, puts them in cages, and then lies about the policy.

No one in the White House resigns


got a link to where Mr Trump Trump praises a dictator for using death camps and forced starvation ?


I would like the GOP to embrace family values.

Note that David Corn D.C. bureau chief of Mother Jones, MSNBC analyst, & author, stated it.
Did your President Mr Trump actually say/tweet/etc it?

Got a link?

Or are you happy to spread and repeat 'Fake news'. :rolleyes:

I too would like the GOP and everyone else to embrace family values.

Duncan Gibbs
06-19-2018, 08:44 AM
We wouldnt NEED imigrants and their children if we would stop using planned parenthood to kill our own.
That's such a stupid and misinformed statement if ever there was one. Just really, really dumb.

Have any idea of the whole vast panoply of reasons women in America aren't having children any more? No, I don't think you do.

Did you know women make up about 60% of all university graduates and therefore carry a much higher debt level than men, and so are likely to put off having kids as a result? What about easier access to contraceptives? What about the higher costs of raising kids these days on a real basis compared with 20 years ago?

No! I guess nothing like that may have crossed your feeble mind. It's all "Danged 'borshuns! Thems kiddy killerrrs are rahhht un-Christchun!"

Here's the rub:

"Make America Great Again" = Don't have women in power + Don't have a black President + Don't have equal rights for LGBTQI people as for straight people + Have anti-miscegenation and segregation laws + (and so on and so forth that all means a "Great America" was the one where white, Christian men held all the stings of power and capital).

That's what makes this whole alt-right/Trump thing a Nazi movement: It's based entirely on an irrational hatred of others who aren't white and straight, and is determined to reimposed white, straight rule via the oppression and cruelty of others who are not.

America will be great again when Trump and his cronies all the way down to the guard who was mocking the crying kids in the cages as his "very own orchestra" are firmly locked behind bars and the key thrown away.

Canoez
06-19-2018, 08:46 AM
https://scontent.fbed1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35648710_2507101922710829_2042198988664340480_n.jp g?_nc_cat=1&oh=74f9db5b91933bfa6d2b1799a34699cb&oe=5BA02F63

Tom Montgomery
06-19-2018, 08:50 AM
.
Trump on the White House lawn speaking to Steve Doucey of Fox & Friends about Kim Jong Un a day after saluting a North Korean general:


“He’s the head of a country, and I mean he’s the strong head, don’t let anyone think any different. He speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.”

LeeG
06-19-2018, 08:51 AM
Note that David Corn D.C. bureau chief of Mother Jones, MSNBC analyst, & author, stated it.
Did your President Mr Trump actually say/tweet/etc it?

Got a link?

Or are you happy to spread and repeat 'Fake news'. :rolleyes:

I too would like the GOP and everyone else to embrace family values.

oh RP, of course Corn distorted Trumps praises of Kim to praises of Kims actions. If you only applied your analytical skills to
the right wing garbage you post regularly.

But back to Corns intent in pointing out how few in the WhiteHouse have taken a stand against Trumps anti-American expressions.

Duncan Gibbs
06-19-2018, 08:54 AM
Note that David Corn D.C. bureau chief of Mother Jones, MSNBC analyst, & author, stated it.
Did your President Mr Trump actually say/tweet/etc it?

Got a link?

Or are you happy to spread and repeat 'Fake news'. :rolleyes:

I too would like the GOP and everyone else to embrace family values.
Dude, he said KJU was "funny" and "smart" and to take over a country at age 26 required skill, yadayadayada, ad infinitum. The interviews and the statements of glowing praise for KJU are all over the various media outlets and internet.

KJU doesn't have skill, nor do I find anything about the murderous little bastwerd vaguely funny.

Either you live in a bubble and haven't seen the various interviews and public pronouncements of praise Trump has showered KJU with, or you have and you're too stupid to realise that Trump was praising him.

Tom Montgomery
06-19-2018, 08:59 AM
Strongmen about whom Donald Trump has commented admirably: Rodrigo Duterte, Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, Kim Jong Un, Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi and Recep Tayyip Erdogan

Rum_Pirate
06-19-2018, 09:04 AM
oh RP, of course Corn distorted Trumps praises of Kim to praises of Kims actions. If you only applied your analytical skills to
the right wing garbage you post regularly.

But back to Corns intent in pointing out how few in the WhiteHouse have taken a stand against Trumps anti-American expressions.

OK.

I acknowledge that you are happy to knowingly spread 'fake news'.

Why not just report 'real news' ?

After all Mr Trump has provided, and continues to provide, a seemingly endless supply of factual 'ammunition' that can be used in, and to support, arguments against him.
There is no need to invent stuff, surely you are above that sort of thing and should leave it to Mr Trump and his 'deplorables'.

Also note that the blues on this forum go 'blue' in the face when reds(?) apparently 'distort' reports, but apparently feel it is OK for them to use and 'distort' stuff. LOL

Seems like what is good for the goose is not good for the gander. :dLOL:d

Nor do two wrongs do make a right.

Rum_Pirate
06-19-2018, 09:10 AM
Dude, he said KJU was "funny" and "smart" and to take over a country at age 26 required skill, yadayadayada, ad infinitum. The interviews and the statements of glowing praise for KJU are all over the various media outlets and internet.

KJU doesn't have skill, nor do I find anything about the murderous little prick vaguely funny.

Either you live in a bubble and haven't seen the various interviews and public pronouncements of praise Trump has showered KJU with, or you have and you're too stupid to realise that Trump was praising him.

Mr Trump may have said KJU was "funny" and "smart" but where is the link to "Mr Trump praises a dictator for using death camps and forced starvation" ?

Seems you justify using 'fake' news' when used anti-Mr Trump, but not by anyone else. Rather hypocritical. :ycool:

Have great day. Y>

Canoez
06-19-2018, 09:10 AM
OK.

Why not just report 'real news' ?


We'll be pleased to let you, and others around here start that trend.

LeeG
06-19-2018, 09:19 AM
OK.

I acknowledge that you are happy to knowingly spread 'fake news'.

Why not just report 'real news' ?

After all Mr Trump has provided, and continues to provide, a seemingly endless supply of factual 'ammunition' that can be used in, and to support, arguments against him.
There is no need to invent stuff, surely you are above that sort of thing and should leave it to Mr Trump and his 'deplorables'.

Also note that the blues on this forum go 'blue' in the face when reds(?) apparently 'distort' reports, but apparently feel it is OK for them to use and 'distort' stuff. LOL

Seems like what is good for the goose is not good for the gander. :dLOL:d

Nor do two wrongs do make a right.

Corn illustrates the morally corrupt nature of the WhiteHouse as it struggles to support a morally crippled and ethically compromised bufoon. Corn’s tweet isn’t news.

Rum_Pirate
06-19-2018, 09:21 AM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=5596245#post5596245)OK.

Why not just report 'real news' ?We'll be pleased to let you, and others around here start that trend.

Acknowledged that you confess to reporting 'fake news' and consider it is reasonable to do so.

BTW I use C&P and quotes and provide links to them, many on here just report 'fake news' and shy away and fire personal insults/deflections when held up to provide a link or accuracy etc.

Lets see how it and accuracy progresses. :ycool:

Tom Montgomery
06-19-2018, 09:25 AM
Let he who is without sin... ah never mind.

Duncan Gibbs
06-19-2018, 09:27 AM
Mr Trump may have said KJU was "funny" and "smart" but where is the link to "Mr Trump praises a dictator for using death camps and forced starvation" ?

Seems you justify using 'fake' news' when used anti-Mr Trump, but not by anyone else. Rather hypocritical. :ycool:

Have great day. Y>

Duh...

“He’s the head of a country, and I mean he’s the strong head, don’t let anyone think any different. He speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.”

Now WHY do you think "He speaks and his people sit up at attention"? Huh? Because he's "smart" and "funny"? Or is it because he publicly executes his own people with AA guns (amongst other methods), sends them to labour camps, tortures them, starves them, so on and so forth.

Please make a vague attempt to engage your brain prior to digging such a large and fine rhetorical hole for yourself on the internet.

Canoez
06-19-2018, 09:35 AM
Acknowledged that you confess to reporting 'fake news' and consider it is reasonable to do so.

BTW I use C&P and quotes and provide links to them, many on here just report 'fake news' and shy away and fire personal insults/deflections when held up to provide a link or accuracy etc.

Lets see how it and accuracy progresses. :ycool:

Putting words in other's mouths again, I see.

I'd be pleased to apologize if I've been found to post "fake news". Should you find evidence of such, let me know.

Just because you C&P, quote and provide links, doesn't mean that the information is worth a bucket of warm spit. Do your research. Oh, and stop re-posting things that you've posted before and had shown to be garbage. Please and thank you.

Rum_Pirate
06-19-2018, 09:36 AM
Corn illustrates the morally corrupt nature of the WhiteHouse as it struggles to support a morally crippled and ethically compromised bufoon. Corn’s tweet isn’t news.

Is illustrating something by resorting to inventing false statements, rather than use the mountains of available information (actually stated by Mr Trump), the best way?
When one, like Corn does, that significantly undermines the very thing one is trying to get across.

Oops, sorry sincere apologies, I should not have used 'fake news' in previous posts on this thread. Sorry too, if it offended any liberals/Republicans/Democrats/bleeding hearts etc. They know who they are and accept the apology as appropriate.

Instead of 'fake news' which others on here avidly repeat even knowing that they are 'false', I should have used 'false statements'. OK? :d


Are tweets news? If Corn's tweets are not news, are anyone else's tweets news?

Chip-skiff
06-19-2018, 09:44 AM
Seems like what is good for the goose is not good for the gander. :dLOL:d

Nor do two wrongs do make a right.

Nor, in your sorry case three wrongs or seven or ten.

Might I suggest a cognition test?

Glen Longino
06-19-2018, 09:44 AM
Is illustrating something by resorting to inventing false statements, rather than use the mountains of available information (actually stated by Mr Trump), the best way?
When one, like Corn does, that significantly undermines the very thing one is trying to get across.

Oops, sorry sincere apologies, I should not have used 'fake news' in previous posts on this thread. Sorry too, if it offended any liberals/Republicans/Democrats/bleeding hearts etc. They know who they are and accept the apology as appropriate.

Instead of 'fake news' which others on here avidly repeat even knowing that they are 'false', I should have used 'false statements'. OK? :d


Are tweets news? If Corn's tweets are not news, are anyone else's tweets news?

Self Absorbed Gobbledygook !!!:D Ha! LOL

Rum_Pirate
06-19-2018, 09:45 AM
Putting words in other's mouths again, I see.

I'd be pleased to apologize if I've been found to post "fake news". Should you find evidence of such, let me know.

Just because you C&P, quote and provide links, doesn't mean that the information is worth a bucket of warm spit. Do your research. Oh, and stop re-posting things that you've posted before and had shown to be garbage. Please and thank you.

Yet you don't berate the one that posted the false statement by Corn and held it out to be true. Sounds(?) hypocritical.


NOTE Canoez (not me) edited his post and took out the second line while I typed this response. I wonder why? LOL

Canoez
06-19-2018, 09:49 AM
Yet you don't berate the one that posted the false statement by Corn and held it out to be true. Sounds(?) hypocritical.


NOTE Canoez (not me) edited his post and took out the second line while I typed this response. I wonder why? LOL

Added, not deleted. Please stop posting falsehoods.

Rum_Pirate
06-19-2018, 10:42 AM
I do most humbly apologize Canoez, I make the correction "NOTE Canoez (not me) edited his post and added the second line while I typed this response. I wonder why? LOL,".

Thank you for clarifying that.
I doubt that you will comply with "I'd be pleased to apologize if I've been found to post "fake news". Should you find evidence of such, let me know."


Congratulations all on deflecting the thread away from the OP and the plight of the 'nearly 2000' (MSNBC) children.

Nothing anyone has said or done so far on this forum will make one iota of difference to the situation.

Those that have elected representatives in the US Senate and House would be better off (and getting like minded people) writing letters to them expressing their disgust and asking what said representative will be doing about it.

S.V. Airlie
06-19-2018, 10:48 AM
I do most humbly apologize Canoez, I make the correction "NOTE Canoez (not me) edited his post and added the second line while I typed this response. I wonder why? LOL,".

Thank you for clarifying that.
I doubt that you will comply with "I'd be pleased to apologize if I've been found to post "fake news". Should you find evidence of such, let me know."

Congratulations all on deflecting the thread away from the OP and the plight of the 'nearly 2000' (MSNBC) children.

Nothing anyone has said or done so far on this forum will make one iota of difference to the situation.

Those that have elected representatives in the US Senate and House would be better off (and getting like minded people) writing letters to them expressing their disgust and asking what said representative will be doing about it.I doubt if you will but, I'll let you know if you do. I won't be holding my breath though. You will if you check FOXNEWS but, you'd think what they spew is factual.

Rum_Pirate
06-19-2018, 10:55 AM
I doubt if you will but, I'll let you know if you do. I won't be holding my breath though. You will if you check FOXNEWS but, you'd think what they spew is factual.

BTW Jamie, the author of "I'd be pleased to apologize if I've been found to post "fake news". Should you find evidence of such, let me know." and who posted it is Canoez.

As to FOXNEWS, one only has to view posts here and see that there are a myriad of (apparently blue LOL) posters (given their posts of outrage) that avidly and regularly watch and post FOX (should one include 'NEWS' with that? LOL) reports. LOL

ccmanuals
06-19-2018, 11:02 AM
They're just 'chain link walls'.

https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5b27b2612000006505b94aaa.jpeg?ops=scalefit_720_nou pscale

You know you are on the wrong side of history when you are arguing that chain link fences are actually walls.

Art Haberland
06-19-2018, 11:02 AM
I am forced to watch Fox news at work because the IT guys love it and it's all over the in house monitors. They have total control and will not switch channels unless a major sporting event is on. Some of their actual "news" shows are ok, but everything is given a spin and everything is "breaking news!". No thanks, CNN is much more sedate and far less obvious in any kind of spin. Rarely is any talk given to the terms "republicans" "democrats" "liberals" or "conservatives" unless it is a true identifier of who or what the subject is.

oznabrag
06-19-2018, 11:30 AM
cage um up in tornillo works for rummy.

My spanish ist nicht so gut but i'm thinking tornillo rummy.

I don't mean that as a personal attack just some comic relief for all that have suffered through this thresad.

:d :d :d

StevenBauer
06-19-2018, 11:31 AM
Now trump is saying he’ll shut down the government if he doesn’t get full funding from congress for his stupid wall.

Canoez
06-19-2018, 11:38 AM
Now trump is saying he’ll shut down the government if he doesn’t get full funding from congress for his stupid wall.

Let him.

S.V. Airlie
06-19-2018, 11:42 AM
Let him.I haven't heard this but, I wouldn't be surprised, he's threatened this before and I'm close to agreeing with Canoez.

Glen Longino
06-19-2018, 11:59 AM
But....but....
https://youtu.be/-FR-vB9pICE

Glen Longino
06-19-2018, 12:06 PM
Ha! Fake news?


https://youtu.be/-yfIxBjOw3o

Daniel Noyes
06-19-2018, 12:07 PM
They're just 'chain link walls'.

https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5b27b2612000006505b94aaa.jpeg?ops=scalefit_720_nou pscale

another Obama era photo?

S.V. Airlie
06-19-2018, 12:12 PM
another Obama era photo?A question mark suggests you don't even know, you're just hoping it is so you can justify what Trump is actually doing Noisey! You are one of those rabid Trump lovers who think the Donald is doing a fantastic job. Maybe you should see what he's doing to Iowa when the Chinese implement their tariffs on the soy bean production. For Iowa, an estimated. loss of 634 million dollars. Just think, Trump may put his little squinty eyes on you.

Glen Longino
06-19-2018, 12:17 PM
[QUOTE=Daniel Noyes;5596434]another Obama era photo?

Go down to McAllen and look for yourself. You'll love it!

S.V. Airlie
06-19-2018, 12:22 PM
[QUOTE=Daniel Noyes;5596434]another Obama era photo?

Go down to McAllen and look for yourself. You'll love it!He won't ICE might throw him in one of those cages. Can't tell the difference.

isla
06-19-2018, 12:24 PM
Note that David Corn D.C. bureau chief of Mother Jones, MSNBC analyst, & author, stated it.
Did your President Mr Trump actually say/tweet/etc it?

Got a link?

Or are you happy to spread and repeat 'Fake news'. :rolleyes:



What David Corn said:
"Trump praises a dictator for using death camps and forced starvation. "

What Trump said: (would you consider this criticism or praise?)
“He’s the head of a country, and I mean he’s the strong head, don’t let anyone think any different. He speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3n1FmtPNw

What the NY Times and the UN say:
Mr. Kim rules with extreme brutality, making his nation among the worst human rights violators in the world.

In North Korea, these crimes “entail extermination, murder, enslavement, torture, imprisonment, rape, forced abortions and other sexual violence, persecution on political, religious, racial and gender grounds, the forcible transfer of populations, the enforced disappearance of persons and the inhumane act of knowingly causing prolonged starvation,” concluded a 2014 United Nations report that examined North Korea (https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/CoIDPRK/Pages/ReportoftheCommissionofInquiryDPRK.aspx).
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/11/world/asia/north-korea-human-rights.html


Perhaps you can join the dots? ;)

John of Phoenix
06-19-2018, 12:50 PM
Good God people, get control of yourselves. In thousands of posts not one of you has ever penetrated the bubble. Another thousand won't have any impact and never will. Sooooo...

DON'T FEED THE TROLL!

John Smith
06-19-2018, 01:20 PM
Let's see if I understand all of this.

We did put a law in place to deal with UNACCOMPANIEDminors, because many wee coming unaccompanied.

Now we're treating all the children as if they are unaccompanied, which seems a bit like issuing tickets for going through green lights.

WE DON'T NEED A WALL, WE NEED MORE FACILITIES TO HANDLE THOSE WHO WISH TO COME HERE!

SKIP KILPATRICK
06-19-2018, 01:24 PM
Just like Summer Camp!


“More kids are being separated from their parents and temporarily housed in what are essentially summer camps, or as The San Diego Union Tribune described them today, as basically looking like boarding schools,” Fox News host Laura Ingraham. said Monday. “The American people are footing a really big bill for what is tantamount to a slow-rolling invasion of the United States.”

SKIP KILPATRICK
06-19-2018, 01:25 PM
Meanwhile back in New York: U.S. Plans to Withdraw From U.N. Human Rights Council Today!

sleek
06-19-2018, 01:39 PM
Let's see if I understand all of this.

We did put a law in place to deal with UNACCOMPANIEDminors, because many wee coming unaccompanied.

Now we're treating all the children as if they are unaccompanied, which seems a bit like issuing tickets for going through green lights.

WE DON'T NEED A WALL, WE NEED MORE FACILITIES TO HANDLE THOSE WHO WISH TO COME HERE!

And a method in which to do so safely, and in an affordable manner. Any ideas?

John of Phoenix
06-19-2018, 02:14 PM
Meanwhile back in New York: U.S. Plans to Withdraw From U.N. Human Rights Council Today!Amazing. Look who's getting self conscious about hypocrisy.

TXdoug
06-19-2018, 05:48 PM
OK, I need to apologize

I just found out that Rummy did not get the Tornillo thing (joke whatever). For that I am truly sorry. If anyone else from Sleekville or Oklahoma or wherever did not see any of these fake news stories I'll provide the links.

http://thehill.com/latino/392720-dem-leads-protests-outside-tent-city-holding-migrant-children

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/06/photos-a-tent-city-for-detained-children-in-texas/563147/

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/17/620813068/hundreds-march-to-texas-tent-city-holding-detained-immigrant-kids

McMike
06-19-2018, 05:50 PM
Are they legals or illegals?

Have you ever gotten cash for work provided and not paid income tax on it?

McMike
06-19-2018, 05:50 PM
Hmmm, those are big kids. Breastfeeders?


Have you ever gotten cash for work provided and not paid income tax on it?

McMike
06-19-2018, 05:51 PM
Everybody is somebody's baby! :)


What should happen? Their parents broke the law--or, are charged with breaking the law. If I break the law, and am arrested, I will be separated from my kids.

What should we do with the kids? Put them in the adult lockup? What is the solution?

Kevin


Have you ever gotten cash for work provided and not paid income tax on it?

McMike
06-19-2018, 05:54 PM
So what? Its people occupying an area. I did that as a child in school. They came here full well knowing the process they were gonna have to go through, and were willing yo do it. If they didnt know, then they took a chance, and this is where theey find themselves. You cant complain if you put yourself in an unknown situation. And you cant ask me to feel sorry for them. I wish the good ones luck.


Have you ever gotten cash for work provided and not paid income tax on it?

WX
06-19-2018, 05:58 PM
President Trump is, one after another, dealing with the issues that other, intellectual, presidential acting presidents kicked down the road, because dealing with them is difficult. MS13 members start young, and have children, too.
Working up to a final solution perhaps?

WX
06-19-2018, 06:03 PM
Just like Summer Camp!


“More kids are being separated from their parents and temporarily housed in what are essentially summer camps, or as The San Diego Union Tribune described them today, as basically looking like boarding schools,” Fox News host Laura Ingraham. said Monday. “The American people are footing a really big bill for what is tantamount to a slow-rolling invasion of the United States.”
This is what happens when you mess with neighbouring economies to the point that the people are forced into poverty.

sleek
06-19-2018, 06:21 PM
OK, I need to apologize

I just found out that Rummy did not get the Tornillo thing (joke whatever). For that I am truly sorry. If anyone else from Sleekville or Oklahoma or wherever did not see any of these fake news stories I'll provide the links.

http://thehill.com/latino/392720-dem-leads-protests-outside-tent-city-holding-migrant-children

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/06/photos-a-tent-city-for-detained-children-in-texas/563147/

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/17/620813068/hundreds-march-to-texas-tent-city-holding-detained-immigrant-kids

Sleekville... lmao, oh God... thanks a $$hole, now I have to go found a town and name it Sleekville. As if I dont work hard enough as it is... A Sleeks work is never done.

TXdoug
06-19-2018, 06:40 PM
Sleekville... lmao, oh God... thanks a $$hole, now I have to go found a town and name it Sleekville. As if I dont work hard enough as it is... A Sleeks work is never done.

Hallelujah. the enlightenment continues, may there forever be this one bright spot in your dark soul.;)

sleek
06-19-2018, 06:42 PM
Lmao. Something tells me a pint with you would be a night with good company.

TXdoug
06-19-2018, 08:00 PM
Lmao. Something tells me a pint with you would be a night with good company.

I'm about a dozen miles north of the Alamo if you ever get down this away. Not too many days I aint up for a pint or six.

Art Haberland
06-19-2018, 09:12 PM
I am speechless. This goes way beyond what I imagined.

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/06/19/us/ap-us-immigration-toddlers-detained.html

LeeG
06-20-2018, 02:21 AM
I am speechless. This goes way beyond what I imagined.

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/06/19/us/ap-us-immigration-toddlers-detained.html

GD these ratfreakers

https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-immigrant-babies-toddlers-held-in-tender-age-shelters

The Trump administration has been sending toddlers and babies forcibly separated from their parents at the U.S. border to at least three “tender age” shelters in Texas—and there are plans to open a fourth facility in Houston, according to the Associated Press. Lawyers and medical providers who’ve visited the shelters say they are full of hysterical preschool-aged children, the Associated Press reports. The three centers—in Combes, Raymondville, and Brownsville—are meant to accommodate younger children, some under the age of 5, though there were no details available on the age breakdown of each facility. Experts say the shelters show the Trump administration essentially reviving a child welfare system—orphanages—that was ended decades ago due to concerns about emotional trauma for children. Alicia Lieberman, who runs the Early Trauma Treatment Network at University of California, San Francisco, told the Associated Press the shelters could leave children permanently scarred emotionally. “Children are biologically programmed to grow best in the care of a parent figure. When that bond is broken through long and unexpected separations with no set timeline for reunion, children respond at the deepest physiological and emotional levels,” she said.

https://apnews.com/dc0c9a5134d14862ba7c7ad9a811160e

Trump administration officials have been sending babies and other young children forcibly separated from their parents at the U.S.-Mexico border to at least three “tender age” shelters in South Texas, The Associated Press has learned.

Lawyers and medical providers who have visited the Rio Grande Valley shelters described play rooms of crying preschool-age children in crisis. The government also plans to open a fourth shelter to house hundreds of young migrant children in Houston, where city leaders denounced the move Tuesday.

sleek
06-20-2018, 02:27 AM
Tjis situation should be pretty farken simple. Ypu show up with a kid, say take my baby while i apply to become legal. We take the kid, person applies, gets approved kr temp approved, ok next. I dont understand why we are struggling here.

LeeG
06-20-2018, 02:34 AM
Corey Lewandowski

https://mobile.twitter.com/passantino/status/1009220051172495361

LeeG
06-20-2018, 02:36 AM
Tjis situation should be pretty farken simple. Ypu show up with a kid, say take my baby while i apply to become legal. We take the kid, person applies, gets approved kr temp approved, ok next. I dont understand why we are struggling here.

you aren’t struggling, I’m not struggling. You have kids?

sleek
06-20-2018, 02:51 AM
Yeah, i do.

sleek
06-20-2018, 02:58 AM
Corey Lewandowski

https://mobile.twitter.com/passantino/status/1009220051172495361

Detained and separated. What does that mean exactly? Detained for how long, seperated for jow long, how far? Whats the plan and why the seperation/detainment?

OliverBendix
06-20-2018, 03:04 AM
Are you decent Americans going to sort this **** out!? Get on with it! If my government did that I’d be banging on the walls.

sleek
06-20-2018, 03:07 AM
Are you decent Americans going to sort this **** out!? Get on with it! If my government did that I’d be banging on the walls.

Its hard on the hands to bang on chainlink, and doesnt make a very satisfying thud.

If the conditions of tossin the baby over the fence into Trumps playpen are well known, and people continue to do it... whelp, I hope they get the results they wanted.

Of course, there are exceptions.

LeeG
06-20-2018, 03:22 AM
GD


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JlPZpw9jAQw

LeeG
06-20-2018, 03:31 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/frankthorp/status/1009190371535048704/video/1

skuthorp
06-20-2018, 04:04 AM
Well as long as they don't begin to rely on the various sects of christianity to provide the necessary child care for infants and toddlers, we know where that has lead in the past. That said I know that many outraged and honourable people who are practicing christians will be offering their help an support. But the process as is is out of control and it is not likely that the proper planning, character checks, and inspections of premises will occur. I will be very surprised if quite a few of these children are not 'left over' when, if ever, this debacle is sorted out. And I will be very surprised if allegations and instances of abuse do not surface. The situation just about guarantees that they will happen.

mdh
06-20-2018, 04:15 AM
Media Dishonesty on Immigration Contributes to Gridlock
By BEN SHAPIRO


“The hysteria over border-enforcement problems benefits Democrats — and gives them no incentive to fix the problem.
The illegal-immigration issue has always been one fraught with politicking. We always hear the same refrain from both sides: that people are suffering and living in the shadows; that we must find a solution for them as well as a way to solidify our border security. And yet nothing ever gets done.

The impression of some in the press seems to be that nothing gets done because of a lack of public pressure. If only they could somehow jar American sensibilities into solving this problem once and for all!

Certainly, that’s the motivation that lies behind the sudden media enthusiasm for covering the phenomenon of Immigration and Customs Enforcement separating children from their illegal-immigrant parents at the border. For the last week, the attention has been nearly wall-to-wall — and the moral preening has hit an all-time apex. MSNBC is now analyzing Biblical verses while asking, “What Would Jesus Do?” (Does this mean Trump has finally won the War on Christmas?) Chuck Todd of NBC News is accusing Republicans of holding kids “hostage.” Media members are breaking land-speed records to rush down to the border in order to shout their outrage over the holding pens in which the authorities are holding small children.

Presumably, all of this is designed to effectuate change.

Instead, it achieves precisely the opposite.

That’s because the media coverage of the illegal-immigration issue has always been shot through with emotionally manipulative falsehoods. In this case, that manipulation has been particularly extreme.

We’ve heard that the Trump administration has heartlessly sought to rip toddlers from the arms of their weeping mothers in order to punish illegal-immigrant parents who are merely seeking asylum. But the truth is more complex: The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that even accompanied immigrant minors must be released from custody within 20 days. That means that if their parents do not arrive at a point of entry to claim asylum, and instead violate the law by crossing the border illegally, they will be arrested — and their children must then be separated from them by the working of the law. The only possible solution, without a change to the law itself, would involve releasing illegal-immigrant parents along with their children into the general population.

We’ve also heard about the terrible living conditions in the holding centers for these children. Likely, some of that is true — although the stories from various sources conflict. But those facilities were overburdened for years before Trump took office; in fact, the media covered these same facilities and pointed out the problems therein during the Obama administration. In other words, this isn’t a Trumpian attempt to dump kids in hellholes. It’s a longtime problem that has yet to be solved.

In reality, all of this could be solved with simple legislation. The House of Representatives is actually set to take up the issue of family separation in both versions of the immigration bill being presented in the House. But Democrats probably won’t sign on to either bill — and it’s unlikely they’d even sign onto an independent piece of legislation designed to allow children to stay with their illegal-immigrant parents until their cases can be adjudicated. That’s because thanks to biased media coverage — and, in some cases, outright falsehoods — Democrats are winning the public-relations war. The longer the Democrats prevent a solution from arising, the more they gain in the public-opinion polls. So they have little incentive to come to the table around an immigration solution — their better political option remains to wait Trump out and let the press inflict damage on him. There’s a reason every Republican attempt at immigration reform has stalled out over the past two decades — and there’s a reason Democrats have celebrated every time they have. There’s also a reason that Democrats with unified control of the presidency and Congress attempted no serious immigration reform. Better to let the problem fester for political gain than to attempt to solve it.

If the media truly wished to contribute to a solution, all they’d have to do is cover the issue honestly. Yes, Trump is enforcing the laws against crossing the border illegally more harshly than the Obama administration did. But he didn’t create the separation policy. Yes, Trump has spoken with great passion in favor of stronger border controls. But he’s also offered a bigger amnesty for so-called DREAMers than even Barack Obama did.

Instead of using truth as a guide, however, the press continue to suggest that base animus animates conservative feelings on immigration. This leads to a political prisoner’s dilemma in which everyone’s best option is stasis: Republicans are best off doing nothing, since they’ll earn nothing but scorn for any action they take from the press anyway, as well as the undying enmity of many in their base; Democrats are best off doing nothing, since they can count on the press to clock Republicans for any immigration failures. The only ones who lose out are the American people.”

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/06/immigration-debate-family-separation-media-coverage-misleading/

PatCassidy
06-20-2018, 04:31 AM
Just like Summer Camp!


“More kids are being separated from their parents and temporarily housed in what are essentially summer camps, or as The San Diego Union Tribune described them today, as basically looking like boarding schools,” Fox News host Laura Ingraham. said Monday. “The American people are footing a really big bill for what is tantamount to a slow-rolling invasion of the United States.”
My first post in over a year. Google the article about the San Diego Tribune. You got the story completely wrong.

sleek
06-20-2018, 04:41 AM
Media Dishonesty on Immigration Contributes to Gridlock
By BEN SHAPIRO


“The hysteria over border-enforcement problems benefits Democrats — and gives them no incentive to fix the problem.
The illegal-immigration issue has always been one fraught with politicking. We always hear the same refrain from both sides: that people are suffering and living in the shadows; that we must find a solution for them as well as a way to solidify our border security. And yet nothing ever gets done.

The impression of some in the press seems to be that nothing gets done because of a lack of public pressure. If only they could somehow jar American sensibilities into solving this problem once and for all!

Certainly, that’s the motivation that lies behind the sudden media enthusiasm for covering the phenomenon of Immigration and Customs Enforcement separating children from their illegal-immigrant parents at the border. For the last week, the attention has been nearly wall-to-wall — and the moral preening has hit an all-time apex. MSNBC is now analyzing Biblical verses while asking, “What Would Jesus Do?” (Does this mean Trump has finally won the War on Christmas?) Chuck Todd of NBC News is accusing Republicans of holding kids “hostage.” Media members are breaking land-speed records to rush down to the border in order to shout their outrage over the holding pens in which the authorities are holding small children.

Presumably, all of this is designed to effectuate change.

Instead, it achieves precisely the opposite.

That’s because the media coverage of the illegal-immigration issue has always been shot through with emotionally manipulative falsehoods. In this case, that manipulation has been particularly extreme.

We’ve heard that the Trump administration has heartlessly sought to rip toddlers from the arms of their weeping mothers in order to punish illegal-immigrant parents who are merely seeking asylum. But the truth is more complex: The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that even accompanied immigrant minors must be released from custody within 20 days. That means that if their parents do not arrive at a point of entry to claim asylum, and instead violate the law by crossing the border illegally, they will be arrested — and their children must then be separated from them by the working of the law. The only possible solution, without a change to the law itself, would involve releasing illegal-immigrant parents along with their children into the general population.

We’ve also heard about the terrible living conditions in the holding centers for these children. Likely, some of that is true — although the stories from various sources conflict. But those facilities were overburdened for years before Trump took office; in fact, the media covered these same facilities and pointed out the problems therein during the Obama administration. In other words, this isn’t a Trumpian attempt to dump kids in hellholes. It’s a longtime problem that has yet to be solved.

In reality, all of this could be solved with simple legislation. The House of Representatives is actually set to take up the issue of family separation in both versions of the immigration bill being presented in the House. But Democrats probably won’t sign on to either bill — and it’s unlikely they’d even sign onto an independent piece of legislation designed to allow children to stay with their illegal-immigrant parents until their cases can be adjudicated. That’s because thanks to biased media coverage — and, in some cases, outright falsehoods — Democrats are winning the public-relations war. The longer the Democrats prevent a solution from arising, the more they gain in the public-opinion polls. So they have little incentive to come to the table around an immigration solution — their better political option remains to wait Trump out and let the press inflict damage on him. There’s a reason every Republican attempt at immigration reform has stalled out over the past two decades — and there’s a reason Democrats have celebrated every time they have. There’s also a reason that Democrats with unified control of the presidency and Congress attempted no serious immigration reform. Better to let the problem fester for political gain than to attempt to solve it.

If the media truly wished to contribute to a solution, all they’d have to do is cover the issue honestly. Yes, Trump is enforcing the laws against crossing the border illegally more harshly than the Obama administration did. But he didn’t create the separation policy. Yes, Trump has spoken with great passion in favor of stronger border controls. But he’s also offered a bigger amnesty for so-called DREAMers than even Barack Obama did.

Instead of using truth as a guide, however, the press continue to suggest that base animus animates conservative feelings on immigration. This leads to a political prisoner’s dilemma in which everyone’s best option is stasis: Republicans are best off doing nothing, since they’ll earn nothing but scorn for any action they take from the press anyway, as well as the undying enmity of many in their base; Democrats are best off doing nothing, since they can count on the press to clock Republicans for any immigration failures. The only ones who lose out are the American people.”

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/06/immigration-debate-family-separation-media-coverage-misleading/

Wow. Brilliantly written.

Duncan Gibbs
06-20-2018, 04:44 AM
Media Dishonesty on Immigration Contributes to Gridlock
By BEN SHAPIRO


“The hysteria over border-enforcement problems benefits Democrats — and gives them no incentive to fix the problem.
The illegal-immigration issue has always been one fraught with politicking. We always hear the same refrain from both sides: that people are suffering and living in the shadows; that we must find a solution for them as well as a way to solidify our border security. And yet nothing ever gets done.

The impression of some in the press seems to be that nothing gets done because of a lack of public pressure. If only they could somehow jar American sensibilities into solving this problem once and for all!

Certainly, that’s the motivation that lies behind the sudden media enthusiasm for covering the phenomenon of Immigration and Customs Enforcement separating children from their illegal-immigrant parents at the border. For the last week, the attention has been nearly wall-to-wall — and the moral preening has hit an all-time apex. MSNBC is now analyzing Biblical verses while asking, “What Would Jesus Do?” (Does this mean Trump has finally won the War on Christmas?) Chuck Todd of NBC News is accusing Republicans of holding kids “hostage.” Media members are breaking land-speed records to rush down to the border in order to shout their outrage over the holding pens in which the authorities are holding small children.

Presumably, all of this is designed to effectuate change.

Instead, it achieves precisely the opposite.

That’s because the media coverage of the illegal-immigration issue has always been shot through with emotionally manipulative falsehoods. In this case, that manipulation has been particularly extreme.

We’ve heard that the Trump administration has heartlessly sought to rip toddlers from the arms of their weeping mothers in order to punish illegal-immigrant parents who are merely seeking asylum. But the truth is more complex: The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that even accompanied immigrant minors must be released from custody within 20 days. That means that if their parents do not arrive at a point of entry to claim asylum, and instead violate the law by crossing the border illegally, they will be arrested — and their children must then be separated from them by the working of the law. The only possible solution, without a change to the law itself, would involve releasing illegal-immigrant parents along with their children into the general population.

We’ve also heard about the terrible living conditions in the holding centers for these children. Likely, some of that is true — although the stories from various sources conflict. But those facilities were overburdened for years before Trump took office; in fact, the media covered these same facilities and pointed out the problems therein during the Obama administration. In other words, this isn’t a Trumpian attempt to dump kids in hellholes. It’s a longtime problem that has yet to be solved.

In reality, all of this could be solved with simple legislation. The House of Representatives is actually set to take up the issue of family separation in both versions of the immigration bill being presented in the House. But Democrats probably won’t sign on to either bill — and it’s unlikely they’d even sign onto an independent piece of legislation designed to allow children to stay with their illegal-immigrant parents until their cases can be adjudicated. That’s because thanks to biased media coverage — and, in some cases, outright falsehoods — Democrats are winning the public-relations war. The longer the Democrats prevent a solution from arising, the more they gain in the public-opinion polls. So they have little incentive to come to the table around an immigration solution — their better political option remains to wait Trump out and let the press inflict damage on him. There’s a reason every Republican attempt at immigration reform has stalled out over the past two decades — and there’s a reason Democrats have celebrated every time they have. There’s also a reason that Democrats with unified control of the presidency and Congress attempted no serious immigration reform. Better to let the problem fester for political gain than to attempt to solve it.

If the media truly wished to contribute to a solution, all they’d have to do is cover the issue honestly. Yes, Trump is enforcing the laws against crossing the border illegally more harshly than the Obama administration did. But he didn’t create the separation policy. Yes, Trump has spoken with great passion in favor of stronger border controls. But he’s also offered a bigger amnesty for so-called DREAMers than even Barack Obama did.

Instead of using truth as a guide, however, the press continue to suggest that base animus animates conservative feelings on immigration. This leads to a political prisoner’s dilemma in which everyone’s best option is stasis: Republicans are best off doing nothing, since they’ll earn nothing but scorn for any action they take from the press anyway, as well as the undying enmity of many in their base; Democrats are best off doing nothing, since they can count on the press to clock Republicans for any immigration failures. The only ones who lose out are the American people.”

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/06/immigration-debate-family-separation-media-coverage-misleading/
^ All Nazi lies.

Parents who arrive at crossings to claim asylum are being turned back, meaning that they have to cross "illegally" or kick back and be at the mercy of the cartels. There ARE NO options to apply for asylum under Trump. The ninth circuit ruling means nothing of the stupid segue Shapiro suggests. Nor is there any law saying that migrants, legal or "illegal" have to have the kids ripped from their arms.

In reality all Trump and his henchmen have to do is stop separating kids from their parents: THAT'S SOMETHING THE NEVER HAPPENED UNDER OBAMA!

THERE IS NO LAW STIPULATING THAT CHILDREN OF MIGRANTS BE SEPARATED FROM THEIR PARENTS. PERIOD!

This isn't a "PR war".

This is an act of human rights abuse and mass child abuse that is being used by Donald Trump as the worst of any kind of dog whistle. That you should so blithely spring to the defence of this abhorrence makes you complicit in this heinous, vile and evil act and makes you one of the number of Nazis. An obedient one it seems.

How's the little red armband feeling now you've slipped it on?

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
06-20-2018, 04:45 AM
http://www.medina-gazette.com/image/2017/09/29/x600_q65/Deported-crying-jpg.jpg

Duncan Gibbs
06-20-2018, 04:45 AM
Wow. Brilliantly written.
^ Another one.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
06-20-2018, 04:50 AM
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/rXaf0peied4/maxresdefault.jpg

Tom Montgomery
06-20-2018, 06:40 AM
A complicated situation. In an effort to discourage illegal immigration the Trump administration has decided to more strictly enforce the law. It's not unprecedented, but it is more depraved, perhaps, than past enforcement efforts.I fixed that for you.



MERRIAM-WEBSTER

Definition of depraved

: marked by corruption or evil

a depraved attack

; especially : perverted (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perverted)

the work of depraved minds

peb
06-20-2018, 07:11 AM
It is my understanding that these people are refugees, and are applying for asylum.

They come here, present themselves to US officials, and are automatically charged with thje crime of entering the country illegally.

Then their families are ripped apart.

Why do you back this?


------------


Ever heard of Lawrence, Kansas?

Bloody Bill Quantrill?


Do you know how he finally convinced his men to raid Lawrence and slaughter every man over the age of 14?Is you understanding correct? We do need to understand exactly what is happening. If a family presents itself at border security and requests asylum, it is not being torn apart. If they are apprehended while trying to enter without permission, the parents are now being prosecuted, at which point the family is being torn apart.
I mean, you can't let someone arrested and detained for robbing a bank stay with his kids while detained, right? That's the logic. Oh wait, it's a frickin misdemeanor. So my analogy is not good. More like, you can't let someone who is caught speeding keep his kids, right?

It is at that point of being detained they apply for assylum, and for some reason, we decide this should prolong the family separation instead of ending it.

LeeG
06-20-2018, 07:33 AM
A complicated situation. In an effort to discourage illegal immigration the Trump administration has decided to more strictly enforce the law. It's not unprecedented, but it is more draconian, perhaps, than past enforcement efforts.

When someone breaks the law they are arrested and put in jail. Ask me how I know?(a minor offense and I was able to post bail).

If you can't post bail, and have children and no-one else to care for them, then the "system", whichever(s), has to take charge of them.

From all I've heard and read, these "systems" are in no way akin to concentration camps. Those attempting to echo the Nazis are off their flippin' nuts! AND attempting to make political hay as the mid-terms approach.

What bothered me most in the reporting I've heard is that in places where the children are being held the staff are instructed to not hold or comfort the children. Being separated from a parent at a young age is no doubt traumatic, but children are very resilient. They do need, however, physical warmth and touching to lessen the trauma.

It's my hope, if we really care about these people, that we can stop politicizing this CF and find some better solutions to the entire issue of illegal immigration.

can you support your statement the Trump policy is not unprecedented? Trump is creating a human tragedy as leverage to pay for an unnecessary wall.


https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/babies-toddlers-taken-from-parents-to-tender-age-shelters

Decades after the nation’s child welfare system ended the use of orphanages over concerns about the lasting trauma to children, the administration is standing up new institutions to hold Central American toddlers that the government separated from their parents.

“The thought that they are going to be putting such little kids in an institutional setting? I mean it is hard for me to even wrap my mind around it,” said Kay Bellor, vice president for programs at Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Service, which provides foster care and other child welfare services to migrant children. “Toddlers are being detained.”
.
.
On a practical level, the zero tolerance policy has overwhelmed the federal agency charged with caring for the new influx of children who tend to be much younger than teens who typically have been traveling to the U.S. alone. Indeed some recent detainees are infants, taken from their mothers.
.
.

Duncan Gibbs
06-20-2018, 07:36 AM
A complicated situation. In an effort to discourage illegal immigration the Trump administration has decided to more strictly enforce the law. It's not unprecedented, but it is more draconian, perhaps, than past enforcement efforts.

When someone breaks the law they are arrested and put in jail. Ask me how I know?(a minor offense and I was able to post bail).

If you can't post bail, and have children and no-one else to care for them, then the "system", whichever(s), has to take charge of them.

From all I've heard and read, these "systems" are in no way akin to concentration camps. Those attempting to echo the Nazis are off their flippin' nuts! AND attempting to make political hay as the mid-terms approach.

What bothered me most in the reporting I've heard is that in places where the children are being held the staff are instructed to not hold or comfort the children. Being separated from a parent at a young age is no doubt traumatic, but children are very resilient. They do need, however, physical warmth and touching to lessen the trauma.

It's my hope, if we really care about these people, that we can stop politicizing this CF and find some better solutions to the entire issue of illegal immigration.
Trump and his henchmen are FORCING refugees to cross "illegally" by denying entry at the very crossings where they say the refugees are meant to make their applications for asylum. So the "when someone breaks the law" BS doesn't cut it Jack. It's a lame excuse for government sanction mass child abuse.

Oh yeah Jack... Where have we seen the precedent of families being ripped apart? NAZI OCCUPIED EUROPE!

As far as "resilient" children go:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/18/separation-children-parents-families-us-border-trump


Nazis separated me from my parents as a child. The trauma lasts a lifetimeYoka Verdoner (https://www.theguardian.com/profile/yoka-verdoner)
I know from experience that the Trump-sanctioned brutality at the US border with Mexico will scar its child victims for life
So don't tell me I'm "flippin' nuts" when we all know it's normal everyday people that carried out Nazi orders and inflicted such hurt and human rights abuses.

How the hell does a two year old tell a government official what their father's or mother's name is?

Government sanctioned child abuse. :mad:

sleek
06-20-2018, 07:38 AM
I'm about a dozen miles north of the Alamo if you ever get down this away. Not too many days I aint up for a pint or six.

I will keep that in mind

Duncan Gibbs
06-20-2018, 07:41 AM
In EVERY historical instance where children were separated from parents (Ireland under Catholicism, the UK under the Child Migrant Scheme to Australia, the Stolen Generation in Australia) have all been universally condemned and ended up costing respective governments millions upon millions of dollars.

Any such policy is sick and evil.

Rum_Pirate
06-20-2018, 07:54 AM
If Santa Anna had been victorious and Texas had been held under Mexico, would the border problem now be on those States that border Texas?

LeeG
06-20-2018, 07:54 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/KaivanShroff/status/1008121199036116992/video/1

peb
06-20-2018, 07:55 AM
Duncan,. Your statement :

LTrump and his henchmen are FORCING refugees to cross "illegally" by denying entry at the very crossings where they say the refugees are meant to make their applications for asylum.

Can you please provide a reference for this? I do not doubt it, but I did not know we had actually quit allowing people to even apply for assylum through a legal means.

sleek
06-20-2018, 07:56 AM
If we quit letting people apply legally, then tjat means the birder is closed. So why in earth would breaking the law be the answer?

Keith Wilson
06-20-2018, 07:57 AM
Jack Heinlein, we've been reading each others' stuff of the WBF for a very long time now, and with this, you have lost my respect completely. You are defending and making excuses for utterly gratuitous child abuse as government policy. :mad::mad::mad:

Rum_Pirate
06-20-2018, 08:00 AM
Jack Heinlein, we've been reading each others' stuff of the WBF for a very long time now, and with this, you have lost my respect completely. You are defending and making excuses for utterly gratuitous child abuse as government policy. F you and the horse you rode in on. :mad::mad::mad:
Keith, suggest we all deal with the issue being discussed and not attack each other.

PS FAQ : don't be rude.

isla
06-20-2018, 08:01 AM
Several state's governors, both Republican and Democrat, have recalled their NG contingents in protest over the child separation policy.

The governors of multiple East Coast states have announced that they will not deploy National Guard resources near the U.S.-Mexico border, a largely symbolic but politically significant rejection of the Trump administration’s “zero-tolerance” immigration policy that has resulted in children being separated from their families.

Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan, a Republican, announced Tuesday morning on his Twitter account that he has ordered four crewmembers and a helicopter to immediately return from where they were stationed in New Mexico.

Massachusetts Gov. Charlie Baker, who like Hogan is a Republican governor in a blue state, on Monday reversed a decision to send a National Guard helicopter to the border, citing the Trump administration’s “cruel and inhuman” policy.

On the Democratic side, governors in Connecticut, Delaware, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, New York and Virginia have all indicated their refusal to send Guard resources to assist with immigration-related issues.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/governors-pull-national-guard-immigration-child-separation-border-policy

Art Haberland
06-20-2018, 08:05 AM
I cannot put into words how I feel that some would actually condone and encourage this behavior in our President and his Administration. Even doubly so knowing that many are parents themselves. If I truly put here what I felt like saying, I would be taking a forced vacation from the Bilge for a very long time. Even know the revulsion I am feeling has me thinking of backing away for a bit. I certainly hope that some here are not as depraved and without redemption as they seem, if they are, it is utterly sickening and the closest I ever want to get to true evil.

LeeG
06-20-2018, 08:07 AM
Duncan,. Your statement :

LTrump and his henchmen are FORCING refugees to cross "illegally" by denying entry at the very crossings where they say the refugees are meant to make their applications for asylum.

Can you please provide a reference for this? I do not doubt it, but I did not know we had actually quit allowing people to even apply for assylum through a legal means.

People apply for asylum and during the process the children are taken away

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/06/trump-administration-family-separation-policy-border

Administration officials have seized on the distinction between the treatment of asylum claimants caught crossing the border versus those presenting themselves at sanctioned ports of entry to depict the former category as criminals. D.H.S. spokesperson Tyler Houlton recently said, “There is no policy to separate those seeking asylum at a port of entry.” But according to multiple reports, undocumented immigrants who appear at these ports are often turned away or detained. “Contrary to what D.H.S. has indicated as proper procedure, we are currently seeing cases where immigrant families seeking asylum are separated after lawfully presenting themselves at a U.S. port of entry,” Senator Flake said in a statement accompanying his letter. In some cases, it appears that immigrants’ claims are simply rejected—a result, perhaps, of the Trump administration’s institutional skepticism toward asylum claims. Sessions has previously criticized the asylum process, asserting in a speech last October that “dirty immigration lawyers” provide applicants with “the magic words needed to trigger the credible fear process.” On Monday, Nielsen declared, “Our system for asylum is broken.”

Tom Montgomery
06-20-2018, 08:11 AM
Oh yeah Jack... Where have we seen the precedent of families being ripped apart? NAZI OCCUPIED EUROPE!

As far as "resilient" children go:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/18/separation-children-parents-families-us-border-trump


Nazis separated me from my parents as a child. The trauma lasts a lifetime Yoka Verdoner (https://www.theguardian.com/profile/yoka-verdoner)
I know from experience that the Trump-sanctioned brutality at the US border with Mexico will scar its child victims for lifeSo don't tell me I'm "flippin' nuts" when we all know it's normal everyday people that carried out Nazi orders and inflicted such hurt and human rights abuses.

How the hell does a two year old tell a government official what their father's or mother's name is?

Government sanctioned child abuse. :mad:United States Attorney General Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III sez the comparison with the Nazis separating children from their families is "not fair" because... oh hell... you have to read it for yourselves. This depravity has no bounds:


[Laura] Ingraham asked the nation's chief law enforcement officer to respond to his critics' comparisons between Nazi German's treatment of Jews, and the facilities where the federal government is housing children separated from their parents. Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., and former CIA director Michael Hayden, among others, have suggested some parallels between the present situation and Nazi Germany.

"Well it's a real exaggeration," Sessions responded on "The Ingraham Angle." "Of course, in Nazi Germany, they were keeping the Jews from leaving the country."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sessions-says-comparing-separated-childrens-quarters-to-nazi-germany-an-exaggeration/

Lew Barrett
06-20-2018, 08:50 AM
If Santa Anna had been victorious and Texas had been held under Mexico, would the border problem now be on those States that border Texas?

If your uncle was my aunt we'd be related but that's not the case. I never imagined your uncle would be my aunt in the first place so I'm happy to just accept reality as it is.

Katherine
06-20-2018, 08:56 AM
When someone breaks the law they are arrested and put in jail. Ask me how I know?(a minor offense and I was able to post bail).
Multiple DUI's are not a minor offense.

bobbys
06-20-2018, 08:57 AM
Jack Heinlein, we've been reading each others' stuff of the WBF for a very long time now, and with this, you have lost my respect completely. You are defending and making excuses for utterly gratuitous child abuse as government policy. F you and the horse you rode in on. :mad::mad::mad:.

I bet he aiant got no horsy!

mdh
06-20-2018, 08:59 AM
Border Politics and the Use and Abuse of History
By VICTOR DAVIS HANSON
June 19, 2018 5:53 PM

“Much has been written — some of it either inaccurate or designed to obfuscate the issue ahead of the midterms for political purposes — about the border fiasco and the unfortunate separation of children from parents. Rich Lowry’s brief analysis is the most insightful.

The media outrage usually does not include examination of why the Trump administration is enforcing existing laws that it inherited from the Bush and Obama administrations that at any time could have been changed by both Democratic and Republican majorities in Congress; of the use of often dubious asylum claims as a way of obtaining entry otherwise denied to those without legal authorization — a gambit that injures or at least hampers thousands with legitimate claims of political persecution; of the seeming unconcern for the safety of children by some would-be asylum seekers who illegally cross the border, rather than first applying legally at a U.S. consulate abroad; of the fact that many children are deliberately sent ahead, unescorted on such dangerous treks to help facilitate their own parents’ later entrance; of the cynicism of the cartels that urge and facilitate such mass rushes to the border to overwhelm general enforcement; and of the selective outrage of the media in 2018 in a fashion not known under similar policies and detentions of the past.

In 2014, during a similar rush, both Barack Obama (“Do not send your children to the borders. If they do make it, they’ll get sent back.”) and Hillary Clinton (“We have to send a clear message, just because your child gets across the border, that doesn’t mean the child gets to stay. So, we don’t want to send a message that is contrary to our laws or will encourage more children to make that dangerous journey.”) warned — again to current media silence — would-be asylum seekers not to use children as levers to enter the U.S.

A few other random thoughts. Mexico is the recipient of about $30 billion in annual remittances (aside from perhaps more than $20 billion annually sent to Central America) from mostly illegal aliens within the U.S. It is the beneficiary of an annual $71 billion trade surplus with the U.S. And it is mostly culpable for once again using illegal immigration and the lives of its own citizens — and allowing Central Americans unfettered transit through its country — as cynical tools of domestic and foreign policy.

Mexico’s policies of deliberately exporting its own citizens are decades-old and hinge on providing it a social safety valve in lieu of domestic economic and human-rights reforms.

Illegal immigration, increasingly of mostly indigenous peoples, ensures an often racist Mexico City a steady stream of remittances (now its greatest source of foreign exchange), without much worry about how its indigent abroad can scrimp to send such massive sums back to Mexico. Facilitating illegal immigration also establishes and fosters a favorable expatriate demographic inside the U.S. that helps to recalibrate U.S. policy favorably toward Mexico. And Mexico City also uses immigration as a policy irritant to the U.S. that can be magnified or lessened, depending on Mexico’s own particular foreign-policy goals and moods at any given time.

All of the above call into question whether Mexico is a NAFTA ally, a neutral, or a belligerent, a status that may become perhaps clearer during its upcoming presidential elections. So far, it assumes that the optics of this human tragedy facilitate its own political agendas, but it may be just as likely that its cynicism could fuel renewed calls for a wall and reexamination of the entire Mexican–U.S. relationship and, indeed, NAFTA.

Finally, it is unfortunate that former CIA and NSA director Michael Hayden and former first lady Laura Bush have both demagogued the issue by respective grotesque and ignorant comparisons of current border shelters to the Auschwitz-Birkenau extermination camp and the forced Japanese internment during World War II. At its horrendous peak in August 1944, the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex on some days exterminated 10,000 human beings and may have cumulatively murdered well over 1 million Jews, as well as Eastern Europeans and Russians.

To suggest that a detainee center is anything similar to that industrial killing monstrosity is unhinged, abhorrent — and shameful. It is an insult to current U.S. border-enforcement personnel who do a heroic job at great risk to protect the border in a humane fashion under unimaginable conditions and political pressures. And it is a greater injury to the lost 6 million of the Holocaust when their fate is so cavalierly and ignorantly used for political advantage. Hayden also should remember that during his own tenure at the NSA and as CIA director, he was constantly and in exaggerated style besmirched on issues such as “enhanced interrogation,” drones, and intrusive surveillance. He too often became the object of frequent and unfair comparisons to various Nazi allusions of the sort that he is now promulgating against the Trump administration.

Equally ironic is that during the Abu Ghraib controversies, the Iraq War furor, and the post-9/11 renditions, George W. Bush — a constant target of brown shirt/fascist/Nazi slurs — was on occasion loosely compared to instigators of fascistic round-ups, including but not limited to the Japanese internment.

Moreover, we often forget that the forced relocation and internment was an unconstitutional and amoral act aimed at mostly Japanese-Americans citizens (among them the parents and grandparents of my current neighboring farmers), along with some Japanese residents.

It was whipped up by the feverish progressive McClatchy Bee papers, facilitated by California attorney general Earl Warren (“The Japanese situation as it exists in this state today may well be the Achilles heel of the entire civilian defense effort.”), who found the hysterical atmosphere that he helped create quite useful in getting elected governor in 1942, and, of course, green-lighted by a progressive FDR and his wartime advisers, especially Harvard Law grad John J. McCloy, a blue-chip Wall Street lawyer, FDR intimate, and later World Bank president, Ford Foundation head, and chairman of the Council on Foreign Relations. Unlike Warren, McCloy never regretted his instrumental role in the Japanese-American internment.

One can disagree with a current policy without stooping to distort history to smear an administration, especially when such tactics in the past have been used against those now employing them.”

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/border-politics-family-separation-debate-abuse-of-history/

S.V. Airlie
06-20-2018, 09:04 AM
Wrong, right from the start mdh. This has been rebutted over and over again and you still dig in like your master does. Trump has taken any umm, law and twisted it to fit his interpretation creating a policy he instituted that's not even in the law Bush 2 signed. Your just changing the flavor of koolaid you've been drinking from grape to orange.

Art Haberland
06-20-2018, 09:07 AM
As the right loves to bring up Obama. If the last administration had done this, EVERYBODY would have wanted his head on a pike. Not just the republicans.

Tom Montgomery
06-20-2018, 09:07 AM
Border Politics and the Use and Abuse of History
By VICTOR DAVIS HANSON
June 19, 2018 5:53 PM

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/border-politics-family-separation-debate-abuse-of-history/When I was in my early 20's I was a registered Republican and subscribed to the National Review. But I grew up and all that nonsense ended for me.

I don't think Bill Buckley would have approved of this depravity. Nor do I believe Barry Goldwater would have approved of this depravity. I'm not so sure about Ronaldus Magnus.

Tom Montgomery
06-20-2018, 09:32 AM
.
The crime that these illegal immigrants are accused of committing -- illegal entry -- is a misdemeanor. With misdemeanors prosecutors have a great degree of flexibility in deciding what crimes to charge, how to punish them, and what kinds of plea bargains to negotiate.

The Trump administration is CHOOSING to take a zero tolerance policy. The law does not require such a brutal approach.

For everyone's edification:


What's the illegal part of being an illegal immigrant? Is it a crime to simply be an undocumented immigrant residing in the United States? What about sneaking across the border?

The confusion lies in the legal difference between improper entry and unlawful presence. Here's what you need to know:

Improper Entry Is a Crime

To be clear, the most common crime associated with illegal immigration is likely improper entry. Under federal criminal law, it is misdemeanor for an alien (i.e., a non-citizen) to:

Enter or attempt to enter the United States at any time or place other than designated by immigration officers;

Elude examination or inspection by immigration officers; or

Attempt to enter or obtain entry to the United States by willfully concealing, falsifying, or misrepresenting material facts.

The punishment under this federal law is no more than six months of incarceration and up to $250 in civil penalties for each illegal entry. These acts of improper entry -- including the mythic "border jumping" -- are criminal acts associated with illegally immigrating to the United States.

Like all other criminal charges in the United States, improper entry must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in order to convict.

Unlawful Presence Is Not a Crime

Some may assume that all immigrants who are in the United States without legal status must have committed improper entry. This simply isn't the case. Many foreign nationals legally enter the country on a valid work or travel visa, but fail to exit before their visa expires for a variety of reasons.

But mere unlawful presence in the country is not a crime. It is a violation of federal immigration law to remain in the country without legal authorization, but this violation is punishable by civil penalties, not criminal. Chief among these civil penalties is deportation or removal, where an unlawful resident may be detained and removed from the country. Unlawful presence can also have negative consequences for a resident who may seek to gain re-entry into the United States, or permanent residency.

Both improper entry and unlawful presence should be avoided by any immigrant to the United States, but an illegal alien cannot be criminally charged or incarcerated simply for being undocumented. To learn more, check out FindLaw's section on Immigration Law.

https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illegal-immigration-a-crime-improper-entry-v-unlawful-presence.html (https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illegal-immigration-a-crime-improper-entry-v-unlawful-presence.html%5b/U)


Infractions: Tickets and Fines
Infractions: In general, these are the least serious type of crime. Typically, a police officer will see someone doing something wrong, write a ticket and hand it to the person. The person then has to pay a fine. Infractions usually involve little to no time in court (much less jail), and include things like traffic tickets, jaywalking, and some minor drug possession charges in some states. However, if infractions remain unaddressed or unpaid, the law typically provides for an increasing range of fines and potential penalties.


Misdemeanor vs. Felony Offenses
Misdemeanors: Misdemeanors are more serious than infractions. They are usually defined as a crime which is punishable by up to a year in jail time. Sometimes that jail time is served in a local county jail instead of a high security prison. Other states define a misdemeanor as a crime that is not a felony or an infraction. Prosecutors generally have a great degree of flexibility in deciding what crimes to charge, how to punish them, and what kinds of plea bargains to negotiate.

Felonies: Felonies are the most serious types of crimes. They are usually defined by the fact that they are punishable by prison sentences of greater than one year. Since the punishments can be so severe, court room procedure must be strictly observed so that the defendants' rights stay protected. Felonies are usually crimes that are viewed severely by society, and include crimes such as murder, rape, burglary, kidnapping, or arson. However, felonies can also be punished in a range of ways so that the punishment matches the severity of the crime.

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/what-distinguishes-a-misdemeanor-from-a-felony.html

Tom Montgomery
06-20-2018, 09:36 AM
can you support your statement the Trump policy is not unprecedented? Trump is creating a human tragedy as leverage to pay for an unnecessary wall.A wall that Trump claimed would be paid for by Mexico.

oznabrag
06-20-2018, 09:44 AM
.
The crime that these illegal immigrants are accused of committing -- illegal entry -- is a misdemeanor. With misdemeanors prosecutors have a great degree of flexibility in deciding what crimes to charge, how to punish them, and what kinds of plea bargains to negotiate.

The Trump administration is CHOOSING to take a zero tolerance policy. The law does not require such a brutal approach.

For everyone's edification:


Felonies are the most serious types of crimes. They are usually defined by the fact that they are punishable by prison sentences of greater than one year. Since the punishments can be so severe, court room procedure must be strictly observed so that the defendants' rights stay protected.

This is where the Stumps' minds turn to mush.

One of the cornerstones of the US, one of the things that made America Great in the first place is that in a court of law one is innocent until proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

These Morons believe that once one is accused, she should be stoned to death in the public square.

They have no understanding of America.

They are simple, easily-manipulated sacks of protoplasm who can not comprehend the Constitution OR the danger that their Mendacious Mussolini presents to the continued existence of their precious USA.

Chris Smith porter maine
06-20-2018, 10:08 AM
It's the same group thinking this treatment of children is justified, that are arguing Manafort is unjustly imprisoned. Makes my brain hurt.

LeeG
06-20-2018, 10:17 AM
one big con to maintain a spectacle. Right up there with associating foreign muslims with terrorists, blaming the federal gov’t for taking middle class wealth or Obama for the decline in coal.

https://www.vox.com/2018/6/18/17474232/trump-immigration-scam

President Donald Trump’s White House has now offered three conflicting reasons for why it is breaking up families seeking asylum at the border. It’s a deterrent. It’s Democrats’ fault. It’s not even a real policy at all.

This is a moment to confront the reality that Trump’s claims about family separation aren’t just messaging confusion or elements of a dishonest sales job. It’s cruelty that is just one piece of Trump’s dishonest approach to immigration.

Trump’s core argument, that he rode from the Trump Tower escalator into the White House and has carried through to every aspect of immigration policy, is that reducing the number of foreign-born people living in the United States will leave native-born people richer and safer. That isn’t true.

While Trump delivers concrete material benefits to wealthy business executives in the form of tax cuts and industry-friendly regulation, what he’s offering his working-class backers is that cracking down on foreigners will solve their problems and that his willingness to suffer the condemnation of cosmopolitans is a token of his dedication to their interests.

It’s a con.

Tom Montgomery
06-20-2018, 10:21 AM
Republicans view immigrants as likely Democratic voters once they are given the opportunity. So they have little motivation to challenge Trump.

John Smith
06-20-2018, 10:22 AM
Tjis situation should be pretty farken simple. Ypu show up with a kid, say take my baby while i apply to become legal. We take the kid, person applies, gets approved kr temp approved, ok next. I dont understand why we are struggling here.

And, as is happening, when they lose track of where the child and the parent are, and cannot reunite them?

Rum_Pirate
06-20-2018, 10:31 AM
Republicans view immigrants as likely Democratic voters once they are given the opportunity. So they have little motivation to challenge Trump.
That is probably correct.

Any info on how immigrants from the 'Mexico' border vote (Republican/Democrat) once they get the right vote ?

Flying Orca
06-20-2018, 10:50 AM
Calling it Nazism to try to enforce the law at the border is counter productive...can we agree on that?

Sure, but the law doesn't require children to be separated from their parents. That is a voluntary regulatory/procedural change initiated by the administration somewhere around a month ago.

S.V. Airlie
06-20-2018, 10:50 AM
When it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, IT is a duck, Ish

Keith Wilson
06-20-2018, 10:57 AM
This is, of course, not frivolous now. There are people who are genuinely in need. There are nefarious characters hidden in their midst. There are all the weird balances our current political/economic structure enforces about who gets to go where and for what reason! A very complex picture.

So...what do we do about a difficult, complex situation? Calling it Nazism to try to enforce the law at the border is counter productive...can we agree on that? It's not only counterproductive, it's ridiculous.Crossing the border is a misdemeanor. We do not take away people's children and lock them in cages for misdemeanors. Neither the previous administration nor the one before it did anything like this. This is not 'enforcing the law', this is useless cruelty toward asylum seekers, neither required by law nor of the slightest benefit to the United States. Mothers with children are almost never 'nefarious characters'; that's nonsense. Coupled with changing the definition of who qualifies for amnesty to exclude those fleeing criminal or domestic violence, (look it up, a unilateral action of Sessions) which includes most of those now coming from parts of Central America where the rule of law has broken down in certain areas, this is nothing but pure cruelty.

Immigration policy is indeed complicated. This particular aspect of it is not, not even slightly. The current actions of the Trump administration are purely evil, gratuitous cruelty toward children, child abuse as federal policy. That you would try to defend this is incomprehensible.

Tom Montgomery
06-20-2018, 11:07 AM
Immigration policy is indeed complicated. This particular aspect of it is not, not even slightly. The current actions of the Trump administration are purely evil, gratuitous cruelty toward children, child abuse as federal policy. That you would try to defend this is incomprehensible.Yes. This is is depravity.

What to make of people who seem utterly incapable of recognizing evil?
.

John of Phoenix
06-20-2018, 11:10 AM
There is NOTHING, NO THING that he can do that would make a trumpster see his evil.

What do we do with these mongrel animals when we're rid of two scoops?

John of Phoenix
06-20-2018, 11:12 AM
The UN says Crimes Against Humanity include -

"Various inhumane acts, i.e., murder, extermination, torture, enslavement, persecution on political, racial, religious or ethnic grounds, institutionalized discrimination, arbitrary deportation or forcible transfer of population, arbitrary imprisonment, rape, enforced prostitution and other inhuman acts committed in a systematic manner or on a large scale and instigated or directed by a Government or by any organization or group."

Do Crimes Against Humanity qualify as "High Crimes and Misdemeanors"?

Flying Orca
06-20-2018, 11:21 AM
the only real cruelty I've heard of is children being refused physical comfort for their fears.

Tearing children away from their parents isn't "real cruelty"? What fscking planet do you come from, Jack?

Your willingness to carry water for the jackbooted thugs is disappointing, to say the least.

Tom Montgomery
06-20-2018, 11:23 AM
Utterly incapable of recognizing evil.

A post from another thread:

The heat index in Texas is a hundred and ten degrees today.
When the first kid dies in the Tent City, how will the Administration "prove" that it is the fault of the Democrats, and that Trump in innocent?

John of Phoenix
06-20-2018, 11:26 AM
Utterly incapable of recognizing evil.Like I said. What about the future of these _______ ?

Tom Montgomery
06-20-2018, 11:29 AM
He reminds of "good Germans" from 80 years ago.