Losing track of immigrant children

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  • peb
    Papist and Texan
    • Feb 2004
    • 14281

    Losing track of immigrant children

    One of my long term arguments in favor of comprehensive immigration reform is that a government cannot stop a major market force without draconian actions. The simply cannot round up and deport 12 million or so people without becoming a police state to do so. If there are no legal avenues for immigration across a border where lots of people desire to go, you simply cannot seal the border without draconian actions. Confirmation of the latter, unfortunately, is presented to us once again:



    If today's so called "conservatives" had one iota of understanding of true conservative philosophy, this would be readily apparent to them. The fact that it is not, illustrates why today's republicans are not conservative.
  • oznabrag
    Historical Illiterate
    • Nov 2008
    • 40798

    #2
    Re: Losing track of immigrant children

    Thank you so much for that, peb.

    I'm sure the usual suspects will be along to say that the children deserve to be . . . I'm sure they'll think of a perfectly heinous description.
    Rattling the teacups.

    Comment

    • Ian McColgin
      Senior Member
      • Apr 1999
      • 51646

      #3
      Re: Losing track of immigrant children

      CBP and ICE and their predecessor agencies have always been more than a bit cowboy because they have lower standards than most state and local and than any other federal police agencies. So they have always, no matter what administration, been loci for abuse of authority. Under Trump's combination of wild rhetoric, dog whistle, and inability to find competent top appointments, it's all just more blatant.

      Comment

      • LeeG
        Senior Member
        • May 2002
        • 72803

        #4
        Re: Losing track of immigrant children

        onald J. Trump
        @realDonaldTrump
        Put pressure on the Democrats to end the horrible law that separates children from there parents once they cross the Border into the U.S. Catch and Release, Lottery and Chain must also go with it and we MUST continue building the WALL! DEMOCRATS ARE PROTECTING MS-13 THUGS


        ACLU

        @ACLU
        No law requires this — separating parents and children is your administration’s choice.

        Hundreds of kids as young as 18 months are in danger of suffering lifelong trauma.

        We won’t let you shift the blame or use families as bargaining chips for your wall.


        Ted Lieu

        @tedlieu
        Dear @FLOTUS: Separating toddlers from parents is definitely not a #BeBest policy. Are you going to do anything about it?

        No one can take your #BeBest children's agenda seriously when your husband's policy rips kids from their parents and loses track of the children.

        Comment

        • oznabrag
          Historical Illiterate
          • Nov 2008
          • 40798

          #5
          Re: Losing track of immigrant children

          How many of those 1,475 kids are now slaves/prostitutes?

          Can DFT be charged as an accessory to child pornography/prostitution?

          It would suit him.

          The Evangelical Christians would ignore it.
          Rattling the teacups.

          Comment

          • Norman Bernstein
            Liberaltarian
            • Nov 2004
            • 25217

            #6
            Re: Losing track of immigrant children

            Originally posted by peb
            One of my long term arguments in favor of comprehensive immigration reform is that a government cannot stop a major market force without draconian actions. The simply cannot round up and deport 12 million or so people without becoming a police state to do so...
            ...or seriously damaging the economy. Immigration is a GOOD thing for the US. Yes, it needs to be controlled, but it's still a good thing.

            The problem is, and always has been, culture.
            "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."






            Comment

            • Lew Barrett
              Landlocked
              • Dec 2005
              • 30035

              #7
              Re: Losing track of immigrant children

              Originally posted by peb
              One of my long term arguments in favor of comprehensive immigration reform is that a government cannot stop a major market force without draconian actions. The simply cannot round up and deport 12 million or so people without becoming a police state to do so. If there are no legal avenues for immigration across a border where lots of people desire to go, you simply cannot seal the border without draconian actions. Confirmation of the latter, unfortunately, is presented to us once again:



              If today's so called "conservatives" had one iota of understanding of true conservative philosophy, this would be readily apparent to them. The fact that it is not, illustrates why today's republicans are not conservative.

              Hear hear!
              One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

              Comment

              • peb
                Papist and Texan
                • Feb 2004
                • 14281

                #8
                Re: Losing track of immigrant children



                Update:

                "The children are not lost, HHS Deputy Secretary Eric Hargan said in a statement. Their sponsors simply have not responded to follow-up calls from the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), the HHS department that oversees the care of unaccompanied alien or minor children.
                The agency was under no obligation to make the 30-day follow-up calls to ensure that the children and their sponsors needed no additional services, he said. Now, this voluntary action is being used to confuse and spread misinformation, he said.
                "This is a classic example of the adage 'No good deed goes unpunished,'" he said, offering a possible explanation."

                No good deed goes unpunished? More like "we have a f&*$(d-up system, we better call and see how bad it is. Oh s&*t, its really bad".

                Comment

                • Rum_Pirate
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2007
                  • 22881

                  #9
                  Re: Losing track of immigrant children

                  Originally posted by peb
                  One of my long term arguments in favor of comprehensive immigration reform is that a government cannot stop a major market force without draconian actions.
                  Just simply enforce the law with the law prescribed actions.

                  Originally posted by peb
                  The simply cannot round up and deport 12 million or so people without becoming a police state to do so.
                  What would it be necessary to become a 'police state' (please define) to do so?

                  Originally posted by peb
                  If there are no legal avenues for immigration across a border where lots of people desire to go, you simply cannot seal the border without draconian actions.
                  many are declined entry, what would there have to be 'draconian actions'?

                  Really?

                  “If you cross the border unlawfully … then we will prosecute you,” I agree.

                  If you smuggle an illegal alien across the border, then we’ll prosecute you. … If you’re smuggling a child, then we’re going to prosecute you, and that child will be separated from you, probably, as required by law. If you don’t want your child separated, then don’t bring them across the border illegally. It’s not our fault that somebody does that.” What is wrong with that?

                  Originally posted by peb
                  If today's so called "conservatives" had one iota of understanding of true conservative philosophy, this would be readily apparent to them. The fact that it is not, illustrates why today's republicans are not conservative.
                  Your logic is duly noted.

                  Comment

                  • Rum_Pirate
                    Banned
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 22881

                    #10
                    Re: Losing track of immigrant children

                    Originally posted by oznabrag
                    How many of those 1,475 kids are now slaves/prostitutes?
                    Got a link showing how many, if any?

                    Comment

                    • Too Little Time
                      Senior Member
                      • Feb 2014
                      • 12740

                      #11
                      Re: Losing track of immigrant children

                      Originally posted by peb
                      "The children are not lost, HHS Deputy Secretary Eric Hargan said in a statement. Their sponsors simply have not responded to follow-up calls from the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), the HHS department that oversees the care of unaccompanied alien or minor children.
                      The agency was under no obligation to make the 30-day follow-up calls to ensure that the children and their sponsors needed no additional services, he said. Now, this voluntary action is being used to confuse and spread misinformation, he said.
                      "This is a classic example of the adage 'No good deed goes unpunished,'" he said, offering a possible explanation."

                      No good deed goes unpunished? More like "we have a f&*$(d-up system, we better call and see how bad it is. Oh s&*t, its really bad".
                      These kids came to the US without parents. They are placed with relatives - as an example of the sponsons. Often the sponsors have reasons - like being illegal, for not wanting to respond.

                      But a lot of people want to place blame.
                      Life is complex.

                      Comment

                      • Joe (SoCal)
                        Banned
                        • Feb 2002
                        • 46431

                        #12
                        Re: Losing track of immigrant children

                        Borders are silly, we live on the only planet with life among billions planets with no discernible life. Humans can't be illegal. We are a migratory nomadic species. Imagine if 200,000 years ago there were border guards and walls in central Africa ? There wouldn't be any humans.

                        These silly turf battles must look silly when seen from afar. I wonder if we ever have the ability to colonize other planets will we then discriminate humans from Earth ? The reason why we even have this photo of earth is because of our innate desire to MOVE outside our borders.

                        Last edited by Joe (SoCal); 05-29-2018, 11:52 AM.

                        Comment

                        • Ian McColgin
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 1999
                          • 51646

                          #13
                          Re: Losing track of immigrant children

                          There are swirling similar stories.

                          The 1400 or so "missing" children were part of the wave of 6000 or so unaccompanied children that flooded the border during the Obama administration. They were put into foster care and 1400 are unaccounted for. Social workers close to the situation believe that most are with families unwilling to talk to the current administration, but it's a disturbing situation.

                          More children are being deliberately seperated from their parents under the new Sessions-Trump policies of border control. Sessions lied to Congress when he claimed that only people attempting to bring children in illegally are seperated. The current law suits against the policy include cases where parents presented themselves for sanctuary at ports of entry, as the law requires them to do. Their children were removed. Some of these parents were turned back, some accepted into the US, and so far none know where their children are. There is no grand number for this set, only the individual law suits with individual clients being brought forward by civil rights attorneys.

                          Comment

                          • johnw
                            Senior Member
                            • Nov 2001
                            • 28596

                            #14
                            Re: Losing track of immigrant children

                            Originally posted by Ian McColgin
                            There are swirling similar stories.

                            The 1400 or so "missing" children were part of the wave of 6000 or so unaccompanied children that flooded the border during the Obama administration. They were put into foster care and 1400 are unaccounted for. Social workers close to the situation believe that most are with families unwilling to talk to the current administration, but it's a disturbing situation.
                            The statements contained in one of those sentences are not necessarily related. "They were put into foster care" describes many unaccompanied minors who came to this country. "1,400 are missing" isn't necessarily the same group. In many cases, these children were reunited with parents who were already here but lacked documents. Those parents have reason to avoid contact with immigration authorities, especially as stories spread about people going to the authorities for a routine check-in and being deported. In a lot of cases, these kids aren't missing from foster care. They are in the care of parents who are afraid to make their whereabouts known because of changes in policy. In some cases, they may fear having their children taken away because of the Trump policy of separating children from their parents if the parents are applying for asylum.

                            It's effed up, but not in the way much of the news narrative claims.
                            On the trailing edge of technology.

                            https://www.amazon.com/Outlaw-John-L.../dp/B07LC6Y934

                            http://www.scribd.com/johnmwatkins/documents

                            http://booksellersvsbestsellers.blogspot.com/

                            Comment

                            • peb
                              Papist and Texan
                              • Feb 2004
                              • 14281

                              #15
                              Re: Losing track of immigrant children

                              Originally posted by Rum_Pirate
                              Just simply enforce the law with the law prescribed actions.
                              The law does not work. That should be readily apparent to all. We continue to hire more and more border guards and expand the number of people trying to enforce the laws. Result?

                              What would it be necessary to become a 'police state' (please define) to do so?
                              Yes, I can define, very well. If we wanted to roudnmup every undocumented person and deport them, we would need to do the following:

                              1) Become a complete "show me your papers" country for anyone with brown skin
                              2) Have an army paid informants living and working in many industries
                              3) Provide "encouragement" to family and friends to turn in known undocumented people, where people would not know who to trust
                              4) Have stiff penalties for aiding and abetting any undocumented person
                              5) Have literally train loads of people being loaded up and shipped south
                              6) Extensive camps to temporarily house people while they are waiting for transport
                              7) Have an immigration enforcement police force numbering in the hundres of thousands.

                              If you simply imagine what it would take, all of my scenarios are likely.


                              many are declined entry, what would there have to be 'draconian actions'?
                              Sealing the boarder, completely. Image the Berlin Wall, that's what it takes to truly seal a border when people really want to move across it. Now, admittedly, it wouldn't be quite that bad. But close enough

                              “If you cross the border unlawfully … then we will prosecute you,” I agree.

                              The law you so love, defines this as a misdemeanor, with a fine not to exceed $500 (IIRC).

                              Comment

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