PDA

View Full Version : Ford to stop making and selling cars in North America



Gerarddm
04-25-2018, 08:24 PM
Except for Mustang and a new crossover. Remarkable:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/ford-stop-selling-every-car-205243027.html

Breakaway
04-25-2018, 08:27 PM
Er....ummm....Selling. Not Making. Selling


Kevin

Vince Brennan
04-25-2018, 08:27 PM
Katharine! Your take on this, please?

TomF
04-25-2018, 08:31 PM
Seeing writing on the wall about the future of individuals' transportation? Especially for lower price segments of the market?

Will individually owned cars become less popular, or too expensive, or maybe be overtaken by self-driving cars in the parts of the population who are more about sheer transportation and less about identity or driving as an enjoyable activity in itself?

I dunno. But this is a helluva development, a strategic choice about future markets and profitability.

Canoeyawl
04-26-2018, 12:04 AM
These make a lot of sense.... they have indeed caught my eye lately.
and the Mustang could be a bit more sophisticated.

Business (practical) or pleasure


http://media.mlive.com/auto_impact/photo/ford-transit-connectjpg-836e6e7afab5e0a4_large.jpg

skuthorp
04-26-2018, 02:43 AM
One hundred new electric cars on show at the China car show.
"More than two-thirds of the hybrid and fully electric plug-in cars on display in Beijing are from Chinese brands, despite international car giants trying hard to court the huge local market with the unveiling of several new electric SUVs."


http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/9698102-3x2-700x467.jpg

"New energy vehicles (NEVs) aren't just fashionable in China's big cities — they are also being actively pushed by China's government through subsidies for manufacturers and a planned cap-and-trade quota system that will force car companies to make at least 10 per cent of their output NEVs or face fines.
"China is already a powerhouse of advanced alternative propulsion systems and that will be the market of the future where winners and losers of the automotive industry will be decided," said Ralf Speth, CEO of Jaguar Land Rover, which is promoting a fully electric SUV to be manufactured in China called the I-Pace."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-26/china-goes-electric-as-trade-tensions-reshape-auto-industry/9697974

But Musk is not happy with tariff arrangements….
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-16/chinese-import-tariffs-a-key-reason-why-trade-war-brewing/9553734

Paul Pless
04-26-2018, 05:05 AM
Seeing writing on the wall about the future of individuals' transportation? Cheap gas and profit margins.

Ford is really really good at making trucks and SUV's, maybe better at it than anybody else; and those products are high margin vehicles.

Paul Pless
04-26-2018, 05:11 AM
These make a lot of sense.... they have indeed caught my eye lately.
and the Mustang could be a bit more sophisticated.

Business (practical) or pleasure


http://media.mlive.com/auto_impact/photo/ford-transit-connectjpg-836e6e7afab5e0a4_large.jpg

My brother bought a stripped down commercial vehicle version of the above to haul his tools around in a few years ago. He liked it so much that he just bought one like the below pictured one for camping/fishing out of with his wife and daughter. Note: his other vehicles include a four door F350 4x4 dually and his wife's SUV.

https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content/dam/vdm_ford/live/en_us/ford/nameplate/transitconnect/2018/collections/_360/wagon/racered/tranc_18_racered_env_1.jpg

Nicholas Scheuer
04-26-2018, 06:27 AM
Why would Ford want to sell 2WD cars when they can so easily persuade folks to pay more for 4WD vehicles? What sometimes comes to mind when observing the current rage for SUV's is the Fisher Body Craftsman's Guild competition I entered as a teenager. The idea was to dream up and submit a 10" model of one's idea for a futuristic automobile. Nobody ever entered anything resembling today's SUV's.

Nicholas Scheuer
04-26-2018, 06:33 AM
Besides, folks seem to like the way SUV's so easily roll over upside down when they skid off an icy road in Winter.

CWSmith
04-26-2018, 06:40 AM
Er....ummm....Selling. Not Making. Selling

Kevin

Don't kid yourself. The making part will follow once sales require higher shipping costs.

BrianW
04-26-2018, 08:28 AM
Where’s Dan?

peb
04-26-2018, 08:55 AM
Who really wants to buy a sedan anymore? My adult kids drive them, but that is only because they are cheaper on the used car market. I drive a Maxda CX-5 small crossover SUV, and I love it. I cannot see ever wanting to buy a sedan again. Yea, lots of people buy large SUVs and pickups, but just as many buy the midsize and small SUVs. Even the Chevy Bolt has that form. What Ford is saying makes perfect sense to me.

brad9798
04-26-2018, 08:56 AM
I'm betting FORD knows a bit more about gas futures than we do ... otherwise, you wouldn't hedge billions in corporate changes on something so bold. But I don't know ... may turn out to be a bad move. They'll still sell plenty of sedans in a ton of other countries ...

Paul Pless
04-26-2018, 08:59 AM
Who really wants to buy a sedan anymore?

ahem. . .

http://myautoworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/DG018_024CH5gc52vkjn76t7ogbi6ne65n5rm.jpg

Norman Bernstein
04-26-2018, 09:00 AM
Who really wants to buy a sedan anymore?

Me.

I HATE driving SUV's. My wife drives one, a Ford Escape... and when we go out together on the weekends, I always drive. She likes it, I don't. I MUCH prefer driving a midsize sedan... been driving Honda Accords for the past 20 years.

As a bonus, I get about 36 mpg on the highway... the Escape doesn't come even remotely close.

peb
04-26-2018, 09:04 AM
ahem. . .

http://myautoworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/DG018_024CH5gc52vkjn76t7ogbi6ne65n5rm.jpg

Oh, I cannot tell you how much I dislike the retro muscle car look. Turning it into a sedan certainly doesn't help. And I don't think they sell that well.

LeeG
04-26-2018, 09:04 AM
My brother bought a stripped down commercial vehicle version of the above to haul his tools around in a few years ago. He liked it so much that he just bought one like the below pictured one for camping/fishing out of with his wife and daughter. Note: his other vehicles include a four door F350 4x4 dually and his wife's SUV.

https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content/dam/vdm_ford/live/en_us/ford/nameplate/transitconnect/2018/collections/_360/wagon/racered/tranc_18_racered_env_1.jpg

That looks like the perfect platform for a hybrid. Not needing acceleration, loaded with tools in stop and go traffic.

Keith Wilson
04-26-2018, 09:04 AM
Who really wants to buy a sedan anymore? Excuse me? Why would I want a vaguely trucklike thing that costs more, handles worse, gets lousier gas mileage, and is larger for the same amount of interior space?

Rich Jones
04-26-2018, 09:04 AM
My wife and I both went to mid sized SUV's more then twenty five years ago. So much more practical plus easy to get in and out of. I can't imagine going back to falling into a sedan and working hard to get out of the thing. Plus, we like being higher up. Driving a sedan would be like dragging my butt on the ground.
However, sedans are cheaper and this move could be a blow to lower income folks who can't afford the SUV.

Tom Montgomery
04-26-2018, 09:05 AM
Er....ummm....Selling. Not Making. Selling
The only passenger cars Ford intends to sell in the USA will be the Mustang and a new Focus Active crossover that comes out next year.

While Ford will shrink its car lineup, it also plans to add five all-new SUVs over the next two years, along with the 2019 Ranger midsize pickup that debuted at the Detroit auto show in January. The company plans for nearly 90 percent of its vehicles sold in 2020 to be a truck (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2018/03/15/ford-plans-trucks-suvs-hybrids/32962275/), SUV or commercial vehicle.

The company has said every new Ford or Lincoln vehicle introduced over the next two years will have either a hybrid or plug-in hybrid engine option, which should buffer against rising gas prices as the vehicles get bigger, according to CEO Jim Hackett and Jim Farley, Ford president of global markets.

As for manufacturing automobiles, the Ford Focus will be manufactured in China. That would make the Ford Mustang the sole passenger car manufactured in the USA (at the Flat Rock Assembly Plant in Michigan).

peb
04-26-2018, 09:05 AM
Me.

I HATE driving SUV's. My wife drives one, a Ford Escape... and when we go out together on the weekends, I always drive. She likes it, I don't. I MUCH prefer driving a midsize sedan... been driving Honda Accords for the past 20 years.

As a bonus, I get about 36 mpg on the highway... the Escape doesn't come even remotely close.

Yep, you are a little older, I get it that people over the age of 60 or 65 hang onto the sedan idea. But its a shrinking demographic.

Paul Pless
04-26-2018, 09:07 AM
retro muscle car look

lol


And I don't think they sell that well.

the charger has been consistently in the top ten best selling cars in america for the last decade
its the number one selling police interceptor

peb
04-26-2018, 09:08 AM
My wife and I both went to mid sized SUV's more then twenty five years ago. So much more practical plus easy to get in and out of. I can't imagine going back to falling into a sedan and working hard to get out of the thing. Plus, we like being higher up. Driving a sedan would be like dragging my butt on the ground.
However, sedans are cheaper and this move could be a blow to lower income folks who can't afford the SUV.

I cannot stand getting in and out of my kids' sedans. I have a bad knee, old high school football injury, it makes it almost impossible unless I swing both legs in and out together. Sitting up a little higher on the road is also a big plus IMO. Carrying things in the large trunk of my CX-5 is super convenient. And it drives just as well as any of my kids' cars. Not as good as gas mileage, Norman has a point there.

peb
04-26-2018, 09:09 AM
lol

the charger has been consistently in the top ten best selling cars in america for the last decade
its the number one selling police interceptor

muscle cars were ugly when 50 years ago, they are the same today.

Norman Bernstein
04-26-2018, 09:12 AM
Excuse me? Why would I want a vaguely trucklike thing that costs more, handles worse, gets lousier gas mileage, and is larger for the same amount of interior space?

My point, exactly.


Yep, you are a little older, I get it that people over the age of 60 or 65 hang onto the sedan idea. But its a shrinking demographic.

Fortunately, I've never been a slave to fashion.

I'd take a bit of an exception to Keith's comment, however.... I don't think there's really that much of a price disparity. My wife's Escape had an MSRP of over $35,000... admittedly, it was a 'top end' vehicle with all the electronics and all the bells and whistles. I recently priced a new Honda Accord sedan, similarly equipped... and it was a VERY similar price.

For reference, my 2013 Honda Accord, which was a 'bottom of the line' vehicle (which still had a rear view camera, but not much else) cost me about $20,600.

Tom Montgomery
04-26-2018, 09:12 AM
Is rolling over in a sudden swerve or in an accident an SUV bug or feature?

Paul Pless
04-26-2018, 09:13 AM
muscle cars were ugly when 50 years ago, they are the same today.de gustibus non est disputandum

TomF
04-26-2018, 09:16 AM
So, it used to be that Ford sold more units of the Focus than anything else. Ford is saying that they are vacating that market because ... it isn't profitable? Because the purchasers of higher margin vehicles don't use a Focus-priced vehicle as an entry point and the origin of a brand loyalty relationship?

Would it matter if other American based auto makers did the same?

George Jung
04-26-2018, 09:16 AM
I've always thought they had nice style:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/e3/57/39/e357398ab869c9266c01d77fecfa3838.jpg

Paul Pless
04-26-2018, 09:18 AM
So, it used to be that Ford sold more units of the Focus than anything else. Ford is saying that they are vacating that market because ... it isn't profitable? They are going to continue to manufacture and sell the Focus and the Mustang. They are discontinuing the Fiesta, Taurus, and Fusion. The press release made no mention of the sedans in the Lincoln brand.

Norman Bernstein
04-26-2018, 09:20 AM
de gustibus non est disputandum

*shrugs* whatever floats your boat.

If I were without children, and younger, and didn't own a boat (into which I pour vast quantities of cash), I'd own a 'car as a toy', as well....

...although it wouldn't be a muscle car... I didn't like them, even back in the late 60's and 70's when they were last in vogue.

I've always been a small car fan... owned and drove a 1970 MGB, back in my pre-children days (worst piece of crap car ever made, but also the most fun to drive).

If I had unlimited money, it would be a fully restored MGA. I always considered the MGA to be the ultimate Brit sports car... it's really an MG-TF with a sexy body shape, but under the skin, as primitive as can be.... wooden door frames, not even door handles, and even a hand crank for the engine... steering wheel in your chest :) I'd need ALL of the money I currently spend on my boat... and then some.... just to keep it running :)

Lew Barrett
04-26-2018, 09:21 AM
The luddites have won the car wars. Bigger is better, less efficiency, sloppier handling all in the name of higher seating has become the de facto standard in suburbia thereby demonstrating that in America, the cart drives the horse.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
04-26-2018, 09:28 AM
Excuse me? Why would I want a vaguely trucklike thing that costs more, handles worse, gets lousier gas mileage, and is larger for the same amount of interior space?

People like the height, some claim to be able to see further, this is dangerous illusion. Some people need the seat height to make up for lack of leg strength, flexibility or balance. Still others see them as a status symbol....

Norman Bernstein
04-26-2018, 09:34 AM
Every morning, I pass by the local elementary school, at which, there is a LONG line of cars waiting to drop their kids off.... and the majority of the cars are indeed SUV's.

Back when MY kids were that age, the line would have been filled with minivans. We owned two of them in a row, actually. The minivans were substantially more practical than today's SUV's.... you could remove the middle and rear seats of a minivan, and actually fit a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood into it... and there was substantially more interior room for parcels and such.

No such luck, with today's SUV's. In fact, there's less room behind the rear seat of my wife's Ford Escape, than there is, in the trunk of my Honda Accord.

George Jung
04-26-2018, 09:35 AM
Yup. 'We' are lemmings; where's that damn cliff?

Paul Pless
04-26-2018, 09:36 AM
I drive a Maxda CX-5 small crossover SUV, and I love it. small crossover suv, basically that's a euphemism for a 3800 pound station wagon with a high center of gravity :D


don't get your panties in a wad peb, my daily driver (although i only drive it two days a week or so) is a ford explorer 4x4.

George Jung
04-26-2018, 09:36 AM
Hehehe...

LeeG
04-26-2018, 09:40 AM
Cheap gas and profit margins.
.

I’ve been wrong before wrt oil prices but betting on gas to be cheap relies on policies that kick the environmental and financial costs down the road to the next generation. Looks like Ford sees the US as a no growth market for smaller vehicles. If the nation gets serious about reducing CO2 emissions and investing in transportation infrastructure that money will come from a more rational fuel tax. 18.3 cents a gallon won’t do it. Oil is now $70/b

https://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/charts/Oil/Inflation_Adj_Oil_Prices_Chart.jpg

Yeadon
04-26-2018, 09:40 AM
This might be a smart pivot by Ford. You never know.

LeeG
04-26-2018, 09:43 AM
small crossover suv, basically that's a euphemism for a 3800 pound station wagon with a high center of gravity :D

It’s nuts. My old ‘97 Subaru wagon had more interior space and less exterior volume than my daughters 2005 Subaru Outback. How did we survive with only 15” tires.

paulf
04-26-2018, 10:12 AM
I own a beat up ford F150 4WD because I need one on my property. But my favorite Ford product.........my beautiful 8N 1950 tractor!

I think it was the best product Ford ever made. Cars just don't do it for me.

We have a Subaru Forester for transportation, our road would kill anything else.

George Jung
04-26-2018, 10:25 AM
I like the new Foresters, but I drive an old (05) Legacy wagon. It just keeps on running.

jonboy
04-26-2018, 10:31 AM
People like the height, some claim to be able to see further, this is dangerous illusion. .

I don't really agree.....I chose to have vans or small commercials Transits , Bedford CFs as opposed to the british typical small family car for just that reason....I moved out of that class when things like range rovers came down to the cheap second hand car market and were obviously better than commercials.

You are higher, you can often see over instead of through the back window of vehicles in front... the advantage was only really negated with the advent of the central high brake light. I like being higher.
Look at the modern bus or coach where the driver is as low as a family car and ask any of them who drove twenty years ago what they prefer. The lower driver in public transport vehichles is seen to be more customer friendly. Ever see a serious truck , semi, artic, lorry where the driver isn't ten feet off the ground? there's a reason

paulf
04-26-2018, 10:31 AM
I like the new Foresters, but I drive an old (05) Legacy wagon. It just keeps on running.

We bought it used, 5 years old, 35K miles . for 1/3 the new price. Great shape. The only car we looked at that had great visibility and AWD. Couldn't see, or justify the NEW price....

Jim Bow
04-26-2018, 10:45 AM
The last Ford in our family looked like this.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/1957_Ford_Country_Squire.jpg

jonboy
04-26-2018, 10:50 AM
Any car that is excessively highly priced when new...has a great deal to offer to the buyer in the ten year old market. Subarus... I have had two for twelve years. never, almost, go wrong but pricey parts when they do... or as in a lot of boxers, its easier to take the engine out to do the valves setting. so high maintenance charges if you don't do the work yerself S o people are a bit scared and you can pick up a high quality well equipped vehicle for the same price or cheaper than other lesser jobs. Have you seen the price of old Rolls from the seventies and eighties....there was a convertible corniche that sat on the dock for years as no one wanted a big expensive car that wasn't (yet) a classic... just a millstone. fifteen years ago I bought a V12 XJS, immaculate for 500£ and drove it from uk to Portugal. cost 1000 £ in gas at less than ten to the gallon. and more than a fiver a gallon

George Jung
04-26-2018, 10:54 AM
We bought a used X3, off-warranty, fair price, for that same reason - no one wants to pay a mechanic BMW wages, for repairs. My son in law does the work, so far it's a good deal.

John of Phoenix
04-26-2018, 11:29 AM
The luddites have won the car wars. Bigger is better, less efficiency, sloppier handling all in the name of higher seating has become the de facto standard in suburbia thereby demonstrating that in America, the cart drives the horse.But thank Thor we're rid of those elephant sized Hummers.

Paul Pless
04-26-2018, 11:43 AM
But thank Thor we're rid of those elephant sized Hummers.will you think less of me for considering buying one of these
there are tons of low mileage civilian am general hummers for sale on the used market
i've seen models with less than 10K miles sell for less than $10,000.00 - these were $75K trucks new
are they not decent pickups? wouldn't they make a great snow plow truck?

https://i.ushipcdn.com/resize.php?path=%2Fstatic%2F182a3728-4f71-4bf8-b.jpg

Canoeyawl
04-26-2018, 11:49 AM
The last Ford in our family looked like this.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/1957_Ford_Country_Squire.jpg

Those old station wagons would make great tow vehicles if only they did not have such overhand at the rear. The biggest advances in car and pick-up based tow vehicles are a result of getting away from the hitch being cantilevered way behind the axle.
A few years back, there was a significant lawsuit involving the 9 passenger commuter vans and that cantilevered rear seat and luggage compartment that got everyone's attention.

Gerarddm
04-26-2018, 11:56 AM
The thing is, the era of owning and driving a car is going to pass, and relatively quickly too. Our grandkids may be amazed that cars were personal property and not a service that you use your cellphone app to call up. Electric, autonomous: the future is closer than you think.

One thing about Ford's move though: they are going to have to do a tightrope dance with CAFE mileage standards, no? That was one reason for the smaller cars, so their fleet would qualify?

Paul Pless
04-26-2018, 12:00 PM
One thing about Ford's move though: they are going to have to do a tightrope dance with CAFE mileage standards, no? That was one reason for the smaller cars, so their fleet would qualify?You will recall that Trump rolled back the CAFE standards going forward. Also, all the new F series based vehicles are aluminum to reduce and increase mileage, further Ford is moving quickly to make their entire fleet have hybrid and plug in hybrid drivetrain options. . .

John of Phoenix
04-26-2018, 12:01 PM
will you think less of me for considering buying one of these
there are tons of low mileage civilian am general hummers for sale on the used market
i've seen models with less than 10K miles sell for less than $10,000.00 - these were $75K trucks new
are they not decent pickups? wouldn't they make a great snow plow truck?

https://i.ushipcdn.com/resize.php?path=%2Fstatic%2F182a3728-4f71-4bf8-b.jpg

Consider is one thing... then you sober up and come to your senses. All is forgiven.

As to that model, at least it's functional not that the functions couldn't be filled by something far more practical and versatile. Like your tractor.

I saw a monstrous "sedan" Hummer that had a handicapped license plate. WTF? Anyone handicapped would need a hoist and bosun's chair to get in and out.

Paul Pless
04-26-2018, 12:01 PM
The thing is, the era of owning a driving a car is going to pass, and relatively quickly too.The automobile has been here for what percentage of recorded human history?

Ted Hoppe
04-26-2018, 12:04 PM
Imagine the Feista and fusions sitting in the new car dealership lots... buying one means the value of resale dropped even more than usual hit.

moreover - what does this mean for the smaller domestic car market which was leaning electric when Ford just pulled out. With one less domestically based makers (and historically and technologically savvy) says there is no great profit... does that mean Tesla days are numbered?

webishop14
04-26-2018, 12:06 PM
Me.

I HATE driving SUV's. My wife drives one, a Ford Escape... and when we go out together on the weekends, I always drive. She likes it, I don't. I MUCH prefer driving a midsize sedan... been driving Honda Accords for the past 20 years.

As a bonus, I get about 36 mpg on the highway... the Escape doesn't come even remotely close.

And me as well. Same story. Almost. I drive a 19 yo Volvo S70. Nice car. Have had it for 17 years. The wife bought her sister's SUV, a Toyota Sequoia -- I suspect it's the biggest SUV on the roads. She loves it. When we travel, she loves that I drive. The SUV. I don't hate it, but the ergonomics just don't work for me. The angle of approach to the accelerator is wrong, causing me to focus on starting up from stops, or else we get a jerky start. Which the wife will complain about. Not that she'll offer to drive. Once in a blue moon I'll pull over to the curb and suggest that I can walk home from here. That at least will guarantee me the silent treatment until we get home.

peb
04-26-2018, 12:08 PM
small crossover suv, basically that's a euphemism for a 3800 pound station wagon with a high center of gravity :D


don't get your panties in a wad peb, my daily driver (although i only drive it two days a week or so) is a ford explorer 4x4.

I won't, I have called it a small station wagon myself.

John of Phoenix
04-26-2018, 12:09 PM
The thing is, the era of owning a driving a car is going to pass, and relatively quickly too. Our grandkids may be amazed that cars were personal property and not a service that you used your cellphone app to call up. Electric, autonomous: the future is closer than you think.I was a speaker recently at a symposium that included the CEO of a company that makes circuit boards for autonomous vehicles. His opening line was, "Our grand kids will never learn to drive. They won't need to."

We're hurtling toward that time.

peb
04-26-2018, 12:13 PM
The thing is, the era of owning a driving a car is going to pass, and relatively quickly too. Our grandkids may be amazed that cars were personal property and not a service that you used your cellphone app to call up. Electric, autonomous: the future is closer than you think.

One thing about Ford's move though: they are going to have to do a tightrope dance with CAFE mileage standards, no? That was one reason for the smaller cars, so their fleet would qualify?

Could be, I thought so a year or so ago. I am becoming less convinced, at least as far as how fast it will happen. I am starting to think truly autonomous cars will require some substantial infrastructure changes. This might happen, but it will take a couple of decades. I suspect the road from "driver assist" to every Uber being autonomous will take longer than projected. Our grandkids might certainly see that most of their adult life, but they will come of age with cars not that much different than now (as far as being personal property that is).

Keith Wilson
04-26-2018, 12:14 PM
Ah, well. At least I'll be able to get another Camry when the one I'm driving wears out.

Ted Hoppe
04-26-2018, 12:21 PM
Sad as i'll never get a new one...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR1CNjLTIpddOXLKIwfYTEk1H6kWCqf5 uYwz1o5tVaiGMFBGyXMPg

Hugh Conway
04-26-2018, 12:22 PM
I am starting to think truly autonomous cars will require some substantial infrastructure changes.

came across this older piece a couple days ago:
http://www.asymco.com/2015/02/23/the-entrants-guide-to-the-automobile-industry/
it nails it

To understand how cars will or won’t change, study roads. There were roads before cars, but not paved and not for going far. Road construction and the deep understanding of safety, capacity and economic impact took 50 years between 1920 and 1970 in the US.[7 (http://www.asymco.com/2015/02/23/the-entrants-guide-to-the-automobile-industry/#footnote_6_6990)] The cars pay for the roads and, as a result, they pay for the logistic system that allowed all forms of powerful businesses to emerge. Walmart, McDonalds and Amazon and the entire retail, food and agriculture sectors owe their existence to the roads that car adoption paid for. Furthermore, the real-estate and entire living structure of many countries depends on roads. If you want to change the car you have to also understand how the roads need to change.[8 (http://www.asymco.com/2015/02/23/the-entrants-guide-to-the-automobile-industry/#footnote_7_6990)]
the nature of work is going to have to change for far more people for cars as service to really take off.

number 8 on the list from the above link is worth a mention too

For most motorists, congestion is a bigger problem than any deficiency in the vehicle.
in regards to #8 Uber & Lyft are currently increasing congestion, so clearly not an innovation

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/12/how-to-fix-new-york-citys-unsustainable-traffic-woes/548798/

CWSmith
04-26-2018, 12:26 PM
Yup. 'We' are lemmings; where's that damn cliff?

Truth. If this means Ford is turning its back on higher mileage vehicles, that's just one more reason why I've bought my last Ford (a Pinto in 1977).


I like the new Foresters, but I drive an old (05) Legacy wagon. It just keeps on running.

I got you beat - 1999! The thing won't die! :)

David G
04-26-2018, 12:44 PM
That is rather surprising. I wonder how they plan on meeting CAFE goals. Or if they've been assured that those goals will be eased...

Paul Pless
04-26-2018, 12:53 PM
That is rather surprising. I wonder how they plan on meeting CAFE goals. Or if they've been assured that those goals will be eased...
Aluminium bodies and hybrid and plugin hybrid power trains.

David G
04-26-2018, 01:12 PM
Aluminium bodies and hybrid and plugin hybrid power trains.

Yeah.... they must have calculated that will be enough.

John Meachen
04-26-2018, 03:17 PM
It makes me wonder whether somebody in Dearborn might be asking what had been achieved by pouring vast amounts of money into NASCAR to promote the Fusion.I do understand that its just a standard Gen6 shell with graphics to resemble a Ford,but the point remains,the promotion wasn't sufficient to sustain the model.They will soon be trying to make the same car look like a Mustang since that is the chosen model to proceed with.Will Mustang buyers notice?

David G
04-26-2018, 03:20 PM
And GM says they're headed down the same path --

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ford-basically-giving-us-car-172000864.html

Gerarddm
04-26-2018, 03:22 PM
I don't know about sedans, but I really like my Audi A6 AWD wagon and don't plan to give it up any time soon.

Paul Pless
04-26-2018, 03:27 PM
It makes me wonder whether somebody in Dearborn might be asking what had been achieved by pouring vast amounts of money into NASCAR to promote the Fusion.I do understand that its just a standard Gen6 shell with graphics to resemble a Ford,but the point remains,the promotion wasn't sufficient to sustain the model.They will soon be trying to make the same car look like a Mustang since that is the chosen model to proceed with.Will Mustang buyers notice?

NASCAR seems to be victimized by its explosive success during the nineties. Too many venues with too many seats with too many race dates per season. No differentiation between brands and few standout driver personalities. It's a suck assed series to watch these days.

Chris249
04-26-2018, 05:57 PM
will you think less of me for considering buying one of these
there are tons of low mileage civilian am general hummers for sale on the used market
i've seen models with less than 10K miles sell for less than $10,000.00 - these were $75K trucks new
are they not decent pickups? wouldn't they make a great snow plow truck?

https://i.ushipcdn.com/resize.php?path=%2Fstatic%2F182a3728-4f71-4bf8-b.jpg

What happens when Hummer drivers hit someone? There seems to be no crumple zone at all, so the other vehicle will effectively take all the impact.

Driving such a car seems to be a complete "f*ck you, I'm incomparably more important" to everyone else on the road.

Chris249
04-26-2018, 06:00 PM
It’s nuts. My old ‘97 Subaru wagon had more interior space and less exterior volume than my daughters 2005 Subaru Outback. How did we survive with only 15” tires.

If there's a difference in the volume, is some of it down to crumple zones? I've gone from a '95 (IIRC) Legacy to an '06 Legacy and not noticed any shortage of interior room, but maybe I'm just missing something.

PeterSibley
04-26-2018, 06:06 PM
My current ride , a Mitsubishi ASX

https://www.drivearabia.com/app/uploads/2010/09/2011-Mitsubishi-ASX-3.jpg

John B
04-26-2018, 06:29 PM
See this is what happens , Ford should NEVER have stolen Aston Martin's Grille shape. If an old car guy like me with an affection for Ford sneers when he sees a plagiarized shape like is so common with their models over the last few years, there's gonna be ramifications .. sonny boy....

purri
04-26-2018, 06:32 PM
Will they call it the Electrolysis?

Aluminium bodies and hybrid and plugin hybrid power trains.

LeeG
04-26-2018, 07:36 PM
If there's a difference in the volume, is some of it down to crumple zones? I've gone from a '95 (IIRC) Legacy to an '06 Legacy and not noticed any shortage of interior room, but maybe I'm just missing something.

when I took trashcans to the dump there more room in the old one compared to the new one. Not a huge amount but noticeable in that the square and round rubbermaid cans fit fine in the old one but were squished in the newer one. Funny how a 13 yr old car seems new to me. I loved driving their ‘92Sunbird.

heimlaga
04-26-2018, 07:50 PM
I rekon somthing has gone totally wrong in the car industry.

Since I took my driver's licence in year 2000 I have driven a 1984 model Opel Kadett E hatchback with the old style 1.2 litre pushrod motor. At the moment it has 309000 kilometres on the clock.
In it's time this was one of the least environment unfriendly cars on the market. The motor is based on a design from the early 1960-ies but in the late 70-ies Opel had spent quite some effort on eco-trimming it just about as far as one can get such a motor.
With all the wear there is on my motor I still drive 100 kilometres on 7 litres of petrol. I am too tired in my head at the moment to convert this to miles per gallon but anyway it is a decently low fuel consumption even today.
It is superrior to almost every two wheel drive car (except elderly Volvo) when driving in mud or deep snow. Actually better than some new SUVs.
It is easy to repair and maintain. I have fixed quite a few breakdowns on the side of the road.
It was a cheap car in it's days. Local humour dubbed them "German Lada" due to the low price.
It is surpricingly big inside. I am 193 cm (6'4") tall and can drive it comfortably while most new cars are too cramped to be comfortable. The boot is surprizingly big for a small car.

With the hard reality being that cars as we know them today will be largely phased out within 60 years all while we at the moment are stuck with a car based infrastructure why isn't there any car maker building a modern equivalent of my Opel Kadett as a temporary measure until the future is here?
A cheap easy to reapair car with low fuel consumption and low emissions. Why not?

John Smith
04-26-2018, 08:15 PM
I rekon somthing has gone totally wrong in the car industry.

Since I took my driver's licence in year 2000 I have driven a 1984 model Opel Kadett E hatchback with the old style 1.2 litre pushrod motor. At the moment it has 309000 kilometres on the clock.
In it's time this was one of the least environment unfriendly cars on the market. The motor is based on a design from the early 1960-ies but in the late 70-ies Opel had spent quite some effort on eco-trimming it just about as far as one can get such a motor.
With all the wear there is on my motor I still drive 1000 kilometres on 7 litres of petrol. I am too tired in my head at the moment to convert this to miles per gallon but anyway it is a decently low fuel consumption even today.
It is superrior to almost every two wheel drive car (except elderly Volvo) when driving in mud or deep snow. Actually better than some new SUVs.
It is easy to repair and maintain. I have fixed quite a few breakdowns on the side of the road.
It was a cheap car in it's days. Local humour dubbed them "German Lada" due to the low price.
It is surpricingly big inside. I am 193 cm (6'4") tall and can drive it comfortably while most new cars are too cramped to be comfortable. The boot is surprizingly big for a small car.

With the hard reality being that cars as we know them today will be largely phased out within 60 years all while we at the moment are stuck with a car based infrastructure why isn't there any car maker building a modern equivalent of my Opel Kadett as a temporary measure until the future is here?
A cheap easy to reapair car with low fuel consumption and low emissions. Why not?

Easy to repair has gone south. My feeling is that people want more 'stuff' in their cars. AC, power brakes, power steering, etc. and so on, and it all takes space. Cars have gotten smaller, so space is more limited.

One person sits at a desk with his computer and has to figure out how to physically fit all this stuff within limited space. Accessing for repair is someone else's headache.

Paul Pless
04-26-2018, 08:25 PM
Cars have gotten smaller, so space is more limited.

uhhh. . .

https://preview2.netcarshow.com/Honda-Civic_CVCC-1975-1600-02.jpg

LeeG
04-26-2018, 09:34 PM
uhhh. . .

https://preview2.netcarshow.com/Honda-Civic_CVCC-1975-1600-02.jpg

I drove across the country in a ‘74 CVCC Civic loaded up. Those 13” tires really had grip in the snow. 4000 rpm at 68mph

heimlaga
04-27-2018, 01:19 AM
Cars have gotten smaller, so space is more limited.


Opel Kadett isn't a big car even by European standards. By American standards it is miniscule.
There har to be a way to build a basic small car if anyone wanted to develope and manufacture it.

jonboy
04-27-2018, 04:53 AM
I rekon somthing has gone totally wrong in the car industry.

I still drive 1000 kilometres on 7 litres of petrol. I am too tired in my head at the moment to convert this to miles per gallon but anyway it is a decently low fuel consumption even today.


well that's not bad at all, about 400 mpg!!!

Garret
04-27-2018, 06:41 AM
Isn't it just that Ford has decided it cannot/will not compete with Toyota, Honda, et al in the market the Japanese dominate? Ford makes money on trucks & SUVs, they lose it on small cars. Seems fairly simple to me.

Problem is what will happen when gas prices double. I hope they have some very efficient designs waiting in the wings.

Sedans disappearing is a different story.

heimlaga
04-27-2018, 07:29 AM
well that's not bad at all, about 400 mpg!!!
Opps...... I meant 100 kilometres on 7 litres.
Would that be 40 miles per gallon?
In a rather worn and rather outdated motor.

Paul Pless
04-27-2018, 07:31 AM
where was this photo taken?

http://forum.woodenboat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14941&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1524809969

jonboy
04-27-2018, 08:46 AM
Yup... just pulling yer leg I guessed that's what you meant. 40 to the UK gallon is good, especially for a 80s Kadett that has seen big miles.

Things are getting better... I hired a diesel peugot 205 (?) ...small car at the airport and drove to Scotland and back on one tank....about 4ltrs 100kms.. 75 mpg. and that's where diesel is more expensive at the pump than premium. it used to be two thirds the price here, but now its up to about four fifths but its still no competition. I have Subaru forester with GPL and thats less than half price pr litre at the pump, but I get a noticeable difference in economy to Gasoline I reckon its about 90% more economical in costs... that is it isnt half the cost as it should be by pump price as its a little less eficiente, but I'm still saving nearly half and cleaner too.

heimlaga
04-27-2018, 08:58 AM
where was this photo taken?

http://forum.woodenboat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14941&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1524809969

On 35-40 cm thick sea ice halfways between Mickelsörarna and the mainland.

Breakaway
04-27-2018, 09:01 AM
A cheap easy to reapair car with low fuel consumption and low emissions. Why not?

We have folks in the auto industry on the forum, and I will be happy to be corrected by any of them, but I see it this way.

1. Safety regulations require ( or end up needing) a larger car to incorporating airbags and crumple zones etc.

2. Humans in the US are bigger, on average, then they were 40 years ago. Fear of low sales as a result.

3. Fuel Injection/ ECM--carbs are DIY territory, whereas fuel injected engines run by a computer require more knowledge and experience, and special tools, all things fewer average owners are likely to have.

Kevin

Paul Pless
04-27-2018, 09:01 AM
i would have never guessed that
looks like a salt flat

jonboy
04-27-2018, 09:07 AM
Might not be Bonneville but is salt flat really, in that it's salty and erm..flat?

LeeG
04-27-2018, 09:33 AM
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8607/28567713580_023dc95a5a.jpg

John of Phoenix
04-27-2018, 09:42 AM
What happens when Hummer drivers hit someone? There seems to be no crumple zone at all, so the other vehicle will effectively take all the impact.

Driving such a car seems to be a complete "f*ck you, I'm incomparably more important" to everyone else on the road.
A feature not a bug. I wondered why they didn't name it the "FU Very Much". Makes more sense than "Hummer". (yes, I know, humvee and that's dumb too)

delecta
04-27-2018, 10:18 AM
We have folks in the auto industry on the forum, and I will be happy to be corrected by any of them, but I see it this way.


3. Fuel Injection/ ECM--carbs are DIY territory, whereas fuel injected engines run by a computer require more knowledge and experience, and special tools, all things fewer average owners are likely to have.

Kevin

For the most part computers simplified complex fuel ratio problems mechanics faced. Sure there were more things that could cause the same problems as before but it was easier to narrow it down. One of the most complicated parts on a car is the carburetor.

I started in the car business in 1982 when GM started using computer command control, got our first ecu's and throttle body injectors. Carbs were for the dark ages, sure GM had various forms of injection before that but '81 was when it went main stream and all the old mechanics had to learn a new trick.

Sure I learned about carbs as they were a majority of what we had coming in but damn wasn't injection the cats a$$. Back then we bought a 30k dollar tester, now I have a blue tooth obd2 plug in and a phone app. I do it mostly because I can and it's fun. Having grown up with it so to speak I have a better understanding of what makes the whole thing tick and can play with my simple diagnostic tools but if you were doing it everyday I doubt the phone app would cut it.

I'm surprised that so many people are intimidated by computers on cars having grown up with computers, in my opinion it has made car repair easier.

Paul Pless
04-27-2018, 10:23 AM
I'm surprised that so many people are intimidated by computers on cars having grown up with computers, in my opinion it has made car repair easier.the computer tells you what part is bad
bad parts aren't fettled with nowadays
entire assemblies are just thrown out and replaced

Paul Pless
04-27-2018, 10:24 AM
One of the most complicated parts on a car is the carburetor.

eh? :D

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/HBEAAOSw5KtaXlE3/s-l300.jpg

stromborg
04-27-2018, 10:55 AM
Based on sales numbers for last year the sedan certainly seems to be on the way out, at least here in the US. Replaced by what I would consider to be big AWD hatchbacks.

As to the Hummer, I suggest looking into the availability of parts and/or service. It was a pretty niche market to begin with.

delecta
04-27-2018, 10:55 AM
the computer tells you what part is bad
bad parts aren't fettled with nowadays
entire assemblies are just thrown out and replaced

Yeah, for the most part there isn't much repairing but if you have a bad O2 sensor it will point you in the right direction. My Acura has headlights that turn when you go around corners, the whole dash lit up with AFS warnings. In the old days you'd open the hood and look at the headlights, now you scan the computer and it points you to a ride height sensor on the left rear suspension. Pulled the part off and looked inside, moisture/salt damage. Cleaned up the contacts, used some springs out of the free bank pens they hand out and we're back in business.

YouTube is an amazing source of information on car repair, the internet in general. Once I had a problem that the app pointed to replacing a costly part, the internet pointed me to a bad ground. Refreshed the ground and it was fixed. I obviously have too much idle time and for the most part repair stations are honest, something to be said for trading before the warranty expires.

John Smith
04-27-2018, 11:31 AM
Years ago, my friend and I had the thought that most families could use, and would use, a second, small, commuter car. We had a couple of friends who had large station wagons (No minivans yet) that they needed for their family. They used that car to drive themselves back and forth to work.

We wondered if it would be worthwhile to subsidize a second, very small, very economical car that would be sufficient for 80% of their driving needs.

I think many would like such a second vehicle, but buying one, insuring it, etc. prohibits it.

Dan McCosh
04-27-2018, 03:20 PM
I'm a little late to this thread, but I'm kind of mystified. Ford announces that it will no longer build vehicles with a locking trunk. That's a kind of strange position to take to begin with. I can emphasize, to a point. I've never bought a new car with a trunk, and most of the cars with trunks I have owned were used-car deals or gifts. Still, I know many people that do like the feature, and it seems to do well on cars such as BMW, Honda, and Toyota.

Even stranger is that no one on this thread seems to address the issue. The responses go all over the map, from gas prices, to robots, etc. Is the trunk really such an unpopular feature that a major automaker can drop it? Lets hear about the pros and cons of a trunk vs. a lift back.

Paul Pless
04-27-2018, 03:41 PM
:D...

John Smith
04-27-2018, 04:05 PM
I'm a little late to this thread, but I'm kind of mystified. Ford announces that it will no longer build vehicles with a locking trunk. That's a kind of strange position to take to begin with. I can emphasize, to a point. I've never bought a new car with a trunk, and most of the cars with trunks I have owned were used-car deals or gifts. Still, I know many people that do like the feature, and it seems to do well on cars such as BMW, Honda, and Toyota.

Even stranger is that no one on this thread seems to address the issue. The responses go all over the map, from gas prices, to robots, etc. Is the trunk really such an unpopular feature that a major automaker can drop it? Lets hear about the pros and cons of a trunk vs. a lift back.

Subjective. Either one, however, should lock.

ishmael
04-27-2018, 04:18 PM
I've not waded through the entire thread, but a couple thoughts come to mind. John Steinbeck, in "Cannery Row", remarked that men of the era know more about the carb of a model T than they knew about the clitoris. I'm glad that is passing!

Second, I've got the spiritual inheritor of the T sitting in my drive: A Toyota Corolla.

Paul Pless
04-27-2018, 04:26 PM
I've not waded through the entire thread, but a couple thoughts come to mind. John Steinbeck, in "Cannery Row", remarked that men of the era know more about the carb of a model T than they knew about the clitoris. I'm glad that is passing!

same old jack

Breakaway
04-27-2018, 04:32 PM
I'm a little late to this thread, but I'm kind of mystified. Ford announces that it will no longer build vehicles with a locking trunk.


That might ruin some of Amazon's plans. It just announced delivery to car trunks as an option to leaving packages in a public space where they might be stolen.

https://www.popsci.com/amazon-car-delivery
https://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.com/files/styles/50_1x_/public/images/2018/04/amazon_key_in-car_delivery_3.jpg?itok=TRXCINil&fc=50,50


Kevin

delecta
04-27-2018, 05:20 PM
Mercedes seems to think the trunk lock is important.

https://img.newatlas.com/mercedes-maybach-vision-ultimate-luxury-1.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&fit=max&h=670&q=60&w=1000&

Garret
04-28-2018, 05:47 AM
the computer tells you what part is bad
bad parts aren't fettled with nowadays
entire assemblies are just thrown out and replaced

You have a fancier computer than any repair shop I've been in! The computers I've seen will tell you a fault & may give some possibilities - but I've never seen one that will tell you what part to replace.

Paul Pless
04-28-2018, 07:23 AM
You have a fancier computer than any repair shop I've been in! The computers I've seen will tell you a fault & may give some possibilities - but I've never seen one that will tell you what part to replace.so i oversimplified, the computer via the fault code, which you then look up in another computer or code book, tells you what 'system' is bad, then the mechanic decides which assembly to replace.

Garret
04-28-2018, 09:51 AM
so i oversimplified, the computer via the fault code, which you then look up in another computer or code book, tells you what 'system' is bad, then the mechanic decides which assembly to replace.

OK - much more better. Thing is that many codes can be caused by half a dozen components: O2 sensor, MAF, coils, plugs, etc. for a too rich or too lean code.