Time to shift toward 'socialism'

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • David G
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2003
    • 89687

    Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    Past time, really.

    She takes too much of a black&white approach, and blames 'capitalism' too much without fully understanding the dynamic... but she gets a lot of it right --

    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)
  • peb
    Papist and Texan
    • Feb 2004
    • 14281

    #2
    Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

    The article never comes close to saying what she thinks socialism is. How she includes this
    "Not to be confused for a totalitarian nostalgist, I would support a kind of socialism that would be democratic and aimed primarily at decommodifying labor, reducing the vast inequality brought about by capitalism, and breaking capital’s stranglehold over politics and culture"
    But that really says almost nothing about policy. Before you or her can say its past time/time to shift towards socialism, you need to define fairly precisely what you say. When conservatives call certain liberal policies "socialism", liberals cry foul and say that's not socialism. Yet liberals then advocate for something called "democratic socialism".
    Lets just simplify it and get down to brass tacks David. Please define a few policies that would fit under the socialist banner.

    Comment

    • David G
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2003
      • 89687

      #3
      Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

      Originally posted by peb
      The article never comes close to saying what she thinks socialism is. How she includes this
      "Not to be confused for a totalitarian nostalgist, I would support a kind of socialism that would be democratic and aimed primarily at decommodifying labor, reducing the vast inequality brought about by capitalism, and breaking capital’s stranglehold over politics and culture"
      But that really says almost nothing about policy. Before you or her can say its past time/time to shift towards socialism, you need to define fairly precisely what you say. When conservatives call certain liberal policies "socialism", liberals cry foul and say that's not socialism. Yet liberals then advocate for something called "democratic socialism".
      Lets just simplify it and get down to brass tacks David. Please define a few policies that would fit under the socialist banner.
      You say you want to know what I define as socialism.

      But I have to wonder about the sincerity of your wondering. Because I have posted - many, many times - my thinking on the topic. If I had simply posted it once, I could easily imagine you missing it... or forgetting it. But I've posted it literally dozens of time. Enough so that people have teased me about the level of repetition.

      But on the assumption that you're honestly interested... and that the level of repetition has simply been insufficient for you... I'll post it again. I can't speak for the author, and she and I might disagree somewhat... but here's mine. It was first posted here in early 2008.

      If, after reading, you have further questions... fire away. We could explore the policy details relevant to today. I didn't mention socialized medicine, for instance. That would be a big one. --


      Originally Posted by IanMcColgin
      At its best, conservatism as shown by aline of American conservatives from George Washington through SenatorTaft embody the wonderous if boring virtue of rectitude.Unfortunatly, this is a tough virtue to maintain, quickly becomingthe judgemental hipocracy we see in the hateful talking heads who sodevalue meaning that they demonize the word "liberal" anddon't live up to any of the virtues found in the dictionarydefinition of conservative. They are not conservative in the positivesense but rather are only defenders of power and wealth.






      Mr. McColgin,

      I've come lateto this thread, but I have to say I think you have touched on thecore phenomenon. One of the long term patterns inherent in our systemof market capitalism (combined with democratic elections) is anongoing pendulum swing between the extremes of laissez-fairecapitalism on one hand, and Scandinavian-style "marketsocialism" on the other.

      Full disclosure: I'mnon-doctrinaire, but tend to lean toward the progressive side.However, my undergraduate work was in economics w/graduate work ineconomic history & economic development.

      Toelaborate: market capitalism is a very efficient system for fosteringinnovation, accumulating capital, and developing economies. Thispowerful engine is driven by a particular side of human nature: theceaseless dynamo of human need and human greed. Don't think I'mcondemning. I'm not. For the most part market capitalism does a greatjob of channeling this drive into productive avenues.

      However,it is also true that - left unchecked - market capitalism has somebuilt-in destructive tendencies. Historically, the continued accrualof more & more capital & power into fewer & fewer handshas led to an inefficient funtioning of the economy. More speculativebubbles. More oscillations. Eventual instability. One example is theGreat Depression. Hoover was an absolute True Believer in the notionthat "The business of America is business". He thought therich getting richer and the poor getting poorer was good for thecountry. He was not the only one. The process began before him. Hewas just the Final Fool before the fall in that particular episode ofthe drama.

      What followed the Great Depression was a rapidswing of the pendulum to the far end of the spectrum. Rooseveltinstituted Social Security; Unemployment Insurance; WPA programs; anda bevy of other programs which were the antithesis of Hoover'sapproach. Socialism, all of it. Don't think I'm condemning. Itworked, and it has a place in our society. We are a far more stableeconomy now - with these programs in place - than we were before.

      Icould go on and on with the variations, ramifications, andpermutations of the pattern. Also about the dangers if the pendulumswings too far (we're close right now) toward laissez-faire (thinkWeimar Germany and Adolph Hitler). Instead, I'll sum up by saying itis not - as Keith so wisely notes - a case of "us vs. them".It is a case of recognizing where we are in the pendulum swing, andaccepting whatever corrections are in order... even if that leadsaway from your particular ideological island.

      Right now,as I mentioned, we've swung a good long way toward uncheckedcapitalism. It's time for a correction. Conservatives should not howlat the prospect. They should welcome it as a normal, desirable,adjustment (think "market correction" if it makes you feelbetter). Liberals should not think that the answer is to swing to theother end of the spectrum and stay there. That place has its ownproblems, dangers, and inefficiencies.

      So - it's time forall of us (you too Milo<)to embrace a bit of "socialism" and step back a bit fromthe dog-eat-dog wing of capitalism. We will possibly over-correct(this system is a positive feedback loop, and they have thattendency). Then it will be time for all of us to embrace a littlemore market control. "To everything, Turn turn turn, There is aseason, Turn turn turn..."

      I hope this rant has beenuseful to someone, and not simply a bit of blather that only aneconomist could put up with.


      "When there is anaccumulation of money and power into fewer and fewer hands, peoplewith the mentality of gangsters come to the fore. Power tends tocorrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" -- Lord Acton<Keep in mind that he's British, and he said this in 1877. Thisis not the first time the pattern has played out>
      David G
      Harbor Woodworks
      https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

      "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

      Comment

      • peb
        Papist and Texan
        • Feb 2004
        • 14281

        #4
        Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

        David, I am very sincere in my question. I recall your post and repost. And this post does not really answer it beyond the idea that we need to swing back to more liberalism, away from unchecked capitalism, we should "embrace a bit of "socialism". I cannot help but note that the word socialism is in quotations. By that I assume you do not mean that the state owns the means of production. I sort of thing the author of the article posted might mean that, but I am not for sure.

        It is very vague. Are you talking about more liberal economic policies: more regulation, higher minimum wage, single payer healthcare system? If so, if someone then, when arguing against claims it to be socialism, liberals will cry foul. So again, what policies do you consider socialist.
        Lets start with "socialized medicine" - so that is single payer healthcare (which liberals have expressedly said is not socialism) or it is nationalization of all the hospitals and clinics?

        Comment

        • Norman Bernstein
          Liberaltarian
          • Nov 2004
          • 25217

          #5
          Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

          I wish people wouldn't get so hung up on the definition of the term.

          It's not a black or white thing... you can accuse some program of being 'socialistic'.... or some other action as 'fascistic'... without having to park either of them squarely in one camp or the other.

          Yes, there are some 'liberal' economic policies that this country has adapted, without justifying the accusation of 'socialism' when used as an epithet. Social Security may indeed be 'socialistic'.... but it didn't change the fundamentally capitalist nature of our economic system... it was simply a practical solution to a socioeconomic problem. Nobody that I'm aware of, save for some infinitesimally small number of political crackpots, is advocating 'state owned means of production', are they?

          In contrast, what would you call the decades long tend of economic inequality? How do you define the very clear political trend, among conservatives, to embrace olicies that result in dramatically rising economic inequality? When it's coupled with authoritarianism, wouldn't it be fair to describe it as 'fascistic'?
          "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."






          Comment

          • Peerie Maa
            Old Grey Inquisitive One
            • Oct 2008
            • 62422

            #6
            Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

            Originally posted by Norman Bernstein
            I wish people wouldn't get so hung up on the definition of the term.

            It's not a black or white thing... you can accuse some program of being 'socialistic'.... or some other action as 'fascistic'... without having to park either of them squarely in one camp or the other.

            Yes, there are some 'liberal' economic policies that this country has adapted, without justifying the accusation of 'socialism' when used as an epithet. Social Security may indeed be 'socialistic'.... but it didn't change the fundamentally capitalist nature of our economic system... it was simply a practical solution to a socioeconomic problem. Nobody that I'm aware of, save for some infinitesimally small number of political crackpots, is advocating 'state owned means of production', are they?

            In contrast, what would you call the decades long tend of economic inequality? How do you define the very clear political trend, among conservatives, to embrace olicies that result in dramatically rising economic inequality? When it's coupled with authoritarianism, wouldn't it be fair to describe it as 'fascistic'?
            I think that the US has long had fascist behaviours. The big difference is that whilst some of our tame RWW's argue against expression of dissent, the government does not actively suppress it.
            It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

            The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
            The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

            Comment

            • Paul Pless
              pinko commie tree hugger
              • Oct 2003
              • 124805

              #7
              Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

              Originally posted by peb
              Please define a few policies that would fit under the socialist banner.
              single payer heath care
              well funded national institute of health
              well funded national institute of science
              completely funded education from pre-k through grad school, vocational and trade schools, job training
              nationalized mass transit
              federally subsidized green energy programs

              i can go on if you like
              Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

              Comment

              • David G
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2003
                • 89687

                #8
                Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

                peb - no matter how many times you've read it, you seem to have missed one of the main thrusts. Which I alluded to in the OP. IT'S NOT EITHER/OR... BLACK/WHITE.

                As Norman suggests - and my essay points out - IT'S A SPECTRUM. <can you hear me yet?>

                Pure laissez-faire at one end, and pure socialism at the other. And any given policy can be defined as living at any point on that spectrum. Where is a matter of interpretation, of course.

                So my position is that attempting to 'define' socialism is useful, and important at the beginning. But we will never achieve pure socialism, nor pure capitalism. The social dysfunction of going that far in either direction would undo any such efforts. But quibbling about whether any given policy, or party platform, is 'capitalis' or 'socialist' is bootless. I can't think of anyone arguing for pure socialsm. And only a few fringe Libertarians arguing for pure capitalism. I think we can simply agree that bolstering Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are a move toward socialism. And deregulating polluters is a move toward laissez-fair capitalism. That a single-payer health scheme (echoing that of the rest of the industrialized world) is more socialist than what we had 10 years ago... or even than Obamacare.

                See... there IS no 'socialist banner'. It's just a range. Until you wrap your mind around that... we're going to have trouble conversing.
                David G
                Harbor Woodworks
                https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

                "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

                Comment

                • David G
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2003
                  • 89687

                  #9
                  Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

                  Originally posted by Paul Pless
                  single payer heath care
                  well funded national institute of health
                  well funded national institute of science
                  completely funded education from pre-k through grad school, vocational and trade schools, job training
                  nationalized mass transit
                  federally subsidized green energy programs

                  i can go on if you like
                  Please do. You left OUT the space program!!!
                  David G
                  Harbor Woodworks
                  https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

                  "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

                  Comment

                  • delecta
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2007
                    • 3591

                    #10
                    Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

                    It's nice for a change to see what is really going on in ones head, thankfully here we have the same poster reaching out and trying to explain.

                    Thankfully the OP and his alter ego have no say in anything that matters for the rest of us.

                    I'm just glad to see one of them brought Acton along, how would we rationalize current behavior with out?

                    I'll state this and say no more, the problem with socialism is that the powers to be are like capitalists, as the power they gain grows the desire to achieve more becomes instinct.

                    Comment

                    • David G
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2003
                      • 89687

                      #11
                      Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

                      OK... let me guess. NOW delecta is mad about being left off my Xmas Fruitcake list?
                      David G
                      Harbor Woodworks
                      https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

                      "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

                      Comment

                      • Paul Pless
                        pinko commie tree hugger
                        • Oct 2003
                        • 124805

                        #12
                        Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

                        what do you soak your fruitcakes in david? bourbon?? brandy???
                        Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

                        Comment

                        • delecta
                          Banned
                          • Sep 2007
                          • 3591

                          #13
                          Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

                          No body likes, no body cares, some of us humor just you despair.

                          Comment

                          • P.I. Stazzer-Newt
                            obnoxiously persistent.
                            • Jan 2005
                            • 26001

                            #14
                            Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

                            LSD?
                            I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

                            Comment

                            • David G
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2003
                              • 89687

                              #15
                              Re: Time to shift toward 'socialism'

                              Originally posted by Paul Pless
                              what do you soak your fruitcakes in david? bourbon?? brandy???
                              One has to garner a spot on the Xmas Fruitcake list in order to get any hints. I can say - and you are authorized to repeat, without let or hindrance, that if I made one for bbbbbbybs... it would soak in MD2020. Delect's would likely be peppermint schnaps and everclear.
                              David G
                              Harbor Woodworks
                              https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

                              "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

                              Comment

                              Working...