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John Smith
03-04-2018, 02:20 PM
Most doesn't get covered, so we don't realize how much there is

http://www.msnbc.com/stephanie-ruhle/watch/tracking-gun-violence-in-america-8-942-shootings-this-year-1175095875832

Gun violence in this country is not limited to the 'mass' shootings that make the news. It's a daily thing.

While the media spends countless days and hours covering the Las Vegas Massacre, Sandy Hook, Columbine, and the recent Florida school, it ignores the day to day gun violence

In a reply further down, these numbers were updated, just a few days later

http://www.msnbc.com/stephanie-ruhle/watch/how-many-incidents-of-gun-violence-have-there-been-this-year-1177005123678


Does it make you proud to be an American?

Steve McMahon
03-04-2018, 02:22 PM
Golly, why are there so many shootings in America? :rolleyes:

isla
03-04-2018, 02:25 PM
It's only March, so it's too soon to talk about it :rolleyes:

Peerie Maa
03-04-2018, 02:27 PM
Golly, why are there so many shootings in America? :rolleyes:

Because those Americans living to your south don't give a damn about dead Americans or their grieving families?

Flying Orca
03-04-2018, 02:29 PM
Good thing there's an endless supply of thoughts and prayers!

skuthorp
03-04-2018, 02:54 PM
And seemingly an endless supply of American adults and children to supply targets…………………..

John Smith
03-04-2018, 07:05 PM
I think there would be stronger outrage if these numbers were continually made public. And, from my perspective, a bunch of people killed one by one is just as bad as being killed all at once.

Bob Adams
03-04-2018, 07:11 PM
Golly, why are there so many shootings in America? :rolleyes:

Mostly collateral damage from the idiotic "War on Drugs".

brad9798
03-04-2018, 09:29 PM
True story.

WX
03-04-2018, 11:26 PM
The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bad done by guns.

skuthorp
03-04-2018, 11:29 PM
How about making drugs legal and easily available to everyone instead? Take the money out of the criminal element, and with the population permanently stoned there'll be much less trouble all round……………….

Bob Adams
03-05-2018, 07:23 AM
How about making drugs legal and easily available to everyone instead? Take the money out of the criminal element, and with the population permanently stoned there'll be much less trouble all round……………….

Regulate and tax. Like alcohol. The USA apparently didn't learn an important lesson from the failed Prohibition experiment.

Flying Orca
03-05-2018, 08:07 AM
The USA apparently didn't learn an important lesson from the failed Prohibition experiment.

Sure it did: alcohol is used by wealthy white males.

Bob Adams
03-05-2018, 08:12 AM
Sure it did: alcohol is used by wealthy white males.

Maybe that when something is in demand, it will be supplied illegal or not. And the illegal supplier will protect his profitable business with violent measures?

Flying Orca
03-05-2018, 08:16 AM
Maybe that when something is in demand, it will be supplied illegal or not. And the illegal supplier will protect his profitable business with violent measures?

That's certainly a lesson of Prohibition, but it's not the lesson of the failure of Prohibition. Prohibition failed because it went against the interests of the people in power. That makes it interesting to contemplate the difference between Prohibition and the War on Drugs, which does not appear to go against the interests of the people in power.

Bob Adams
03-05-2018, 08:37 AM
Lets stay on topic....the violence of Prohibition is an analog to the gang bangers of today protecting their drug business with a gun.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2012/aug/26/lawless-prohibition-gangsters-speakeasies

Reynard38
03-05-2018, 08:43 AM
Sure it did: alcohol is used by wealthy white males.

Right.... and here’s evil whitey gettin all funky with it.



https://youtu.be/vvPBhxabt2Q

Flying Orca
03-05-2018, 09:03 AM
Right.... and here’s evil whitey gettin all funky with it.

I think you miss my point. The prohibition of alcohol quickly became problematic because it is the favourite drug of the establishment, regardless of whether other people use it too. The prohibition of other drugs continues to be useful to the establishment because the benefits to the establishment outweigh the negative impact. Cui bono.

You could argue that the establishment isn't mostly wealthy white males, but I think a look at most US legislative bodies would support my view.

John Smith
03-05-2018, 09:17 AM
How about making drugs legal and easily available to everyone instead? Take the money out of the criminal element, and with the population permanently stoned there'll be much less trouble all round……………….

Sounds good to me. We learned nothing from Prohibition.

Reynard38
03-05-2018, 09:20 AM
I think you miss my point. The prohibition of alcohol quickly became problematic because it is the favourite drug of the establishment, regardless of whether other people use it too. The prohibition of other drugs continues to be useful to the establishment because the benefits to the establishment outweigh the negative impact. Cui bono.

You could argue that the establishment isn't mostly wealthy white males, but I think a look at most US legislative bodies would support my view.

Understood. I misinterpreted the point of your post. The continued prohibition on recreational drugs certainly benefits law enforcement in the US. They can use the laws to justify equipment acquisitions and militarization.
Personnally I don’t give a damn what people snort, smoke or swallow. Just don’t do it around me or mine and damn sure don’t do it and then get behind the wheel.

John Smith
03-05-2018, 09:21 AM
Lets stay on topic....the violence of Prohibition is an analog to the gang bangers of today protecting their drug business with a gun.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2012/aug/26/lawless-prohibition-gangsters-speakeasies

To truly stay on topic, we need to be reminded of ALL the people who are shot daily. The reason they are shot varies, but if the people of this country realized how many people are shot daily, how many are killed, how many are wounded, and how many of the wounded don't have insurance, etc.....

I believe more of the public would demand action on guns. Right to life, IMO, would, or should, include not being shot be fellow citizens.

Meanwhile, the relatively few incidents of people being killed by foreign born shooters, is blown up as if it's a much bigger problem.

John Smith
03-05-2018, 09:24 AM
I think you miss my point. The prohibition of alcohol quickly became problematic because it is the favourite drug of the establishment, regardless of whether other people use it too. The prohibition of other drugs continues to be useful to the establishment because the benefits to the establishment outweigh the negative impact. Cui bono.

You could argue that the establishment isn't mostly wealthy white males, but I think a look at most US legislative bodies would support my view.

I think part of the establishment that makes money from legal booze would make money from legal drugs. Aside from cutting down on the incredible amount of violence, I've read that just as people died drinking poison during Prohibition, many of the 'overdoses' are not really overdoses, but poisonous product.

If we make it legal, we have control over the quality, we save a lot of money now being spent on enforcing drug laws, we tax it so revenue gose up, and we eliminate a lot of gun violence.

Bob Adams
03-05-2018, 09:27 AM
To truly stay on topic, we need to be reminded of ALL the people who are shot daily. The reason they are shot varies, but if the people of this country realized how many people are shot daily, how many are killed, how many are wounded, and how many of the wounded don't have insurance, etc.....

I believe more of the public would demand action on guns. Right to life, IMO, would, or should, include not being shot be fellow citizens.

Meanwhile, the relatively few incidents of people being killed by foreign born shooters, is blown up as if it's a much bigger problem.

Being located in Baltimore, I see first hand. Drugs are the #1 cause of shooting deaths here.

Flying Orca
03-05-2018, 09:59 AM
I think part of the establishment that makes money from legal booze would make money from legal drugs.

I think you're right. That means that the benefit is not financial, at least directly. So what's the benefit? (Hint: Reynard38 is on the right track, but I would suggest that there is much more to it.)

Cui bono is a very useful question.

John Smith
03-05-2018, 11:49 AM
Updated data: http://www.msnbc.com/stephanie-ruhle/watch/how-many-incidents-of-gun-violence-have-there-been-this-year-1177005123678

It is unconscionable that this is being tracked by all the media.

I'd like to think she started this behind my tweet asking her to.

Too Little Time
03-05-2018, 11:56 AM
Most doesn't get covered, so we don't realize how much there is

http://www.msnbc.com/stephanie-ruhle/watch/tracking-gun-violence-in-america-8-942-shootings-this-year-1175095875832
Even with all the recent attention nothing happens.

The Florida Senate passed a decent law by voice vote and then failed to pass it by roll call vote. The US Congress is going to defer to the states.

It is a sad state of affairs.

John Smith
03-05-2018, 01:12 PM
Even with all the recent attention nothing happens.

The Florida Senate passed a decent law by voice vote and then failed to pass it by roll call vote. The US Congress is going to defer to the states.

It is a sad state of affairs.

All that attention revolves around one incident where 17 kids died. What I'm trying to do is get attention paid to the DAILY shootings that no one hears about. Because they are not covered, most don't realize they happen. Very few people, I suspect, realize over 9000 people have been shot so far this year.

I'd like to think if they did realize the volume of shootings, the outcry would be louder.

Flying Orca
03-05-2018, 01:24 PM
I think I've read that gun violence in the USA has claimed more lives since WWII than were lost in all of the wars in the country's history. It's like some weird societal version of autophagia.

Peerie Maa
03-05-2018, 01:55 PM
I think I've read that gun violence in the USA has claimed more lives since WWII than were lost in all of the wars in the country's history. It's like some weird societal version of autophagia.

It is worse than that

Here’s a summary of deaths by major conflict:


War
Deaths


Revolutionary War
4,435


War of 1812
2,260


Mexican War
13,283


Civil War (Union and Confederate, estimate)
750,000


Spanish-American War
2,446


World War I
116,516


World War II
405,399


Korean War
36,574


Vietnam War
58,220


Persian Gulf War
383


Afghanistan War
2,363


Iraq War
4,492


Other wars (includes Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Somalia and Haiti)
362


TOTAL
1,396,733




Gunfire deaths
As we did in our previous fact-check, we used a conservative estimate of data from a 1994 paper published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00023655.htm) to count gun-related deaths from 1968 to 1980. For 1981 through 2013, we used annual data sets from CDC. Finally, for 2014 and the first eight months of 2015, we estimated that the number of gun-related deaths were equal to the rate during the previous three full years for which we have data — 2011 to 2013.
Here is a summary. The figures below refer to total deaths caused by firearms:



Years
Firearm-related deaths


1968 to 1980 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00023655.htm)

377,000


1981 to 1998 (http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate9.html)
620,525


1999 to 2013 (http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html)
464,033


2014
(estimated based on rate from 2011-2013)
33,183


2015
(estimated based on rate from 2011-2013)
22,122


TOTAL, 1968-2015
1,516,863


http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/aug/27/nicholas-kristof/more-americans-killed-guns-1968-all-wars-says-colu/

This is a sobering site

Every other day, a child kills or wounds another person in an accidental shooting.

http://static4.uk.businessinsider.com/image/5962eb367ba136288d241f13-1200/every-other-day-a-child-kills-or-wounds-another-person-in-an-accidental-shooting.jpg
The Trace
The Trace analyzed data (https://www.thetrace.org/2016/10/when-kids-pull-the-trigger-interactive/) collected by the Gun Violence Archive from September 2014 through September 2016 and found that at least 295 children under the age of 13 wounded or killed someone with a gun. In at least 113 cases, the shooter was 3 years old or younger.
In its 2017 study (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/06/15/peds.2016-3486) of children and gun violence, the CDC found that most unintentional shootings of kids happen while children are playing with guns they have found. Among accidental gun deaths of children under age 13, the gun was mistaken for a toy in 16 percent of the cases.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/14-stunning-facts-that-show-how-gun-violence-hurts-american-kids-2017-7?r=US&IR=T/#nearly-20-american-children-are-shot-in-an-average-day-1

Bob Adams
03-05-2018, 02:27 PM
The children getting their hands on guns really pisses me off. It is so easy to avoid. There should be safe storage laws and anyone who owns a gun that does harm because it wasn't properly secured should be prosecuted.

Flying Orca
03-05-2018, 02:31 PM
The children getting their hands on guns really pisses me off. It is so easy to avoid. There should be safe storage laws and anyone who owns a gun that does harm because it wasn't properly secured should be prosecuted.i

Most gun owners in the USA fail to store their guns safely, according to a study I saw recently. Safe storage and transportation laws are definitely one way to reduce the harm done by gun violence.

Bob Adams
03-05-2018, 02:32 PM
Most gun owners in the USA fail to store their guns safely, according to a study I saw recently. Safe storage and transportation laws are definitely one way to reduce the harm done by gun violence.

Have a link? Sad if true, and totally stupid.

Too Little Time
03-05-2018, 02:47 PM
All that attention revolves around one incident where 17 kids died. What I'm trying to do is get attention paid to the DAILY shootings that no one hears about. Because they are not covered, most don't realize they happen. Very few people, I suspect, realize over 9000 people have been shot so far this year.

I'd like to think if they did realize the volume of shootings, the outcry would be louder.
I understand. My comment is that a lot of people speak against gun control but are unwilling to take responsibility for gun control.

I would like more gun control so I don't have one. But I suspect many people are unwilling to actually vote for more gun control.

David G
03-05-2018, 02:53 PM
Why?

Because we're not the sort of sissies the rest of the developed world is. We are - at least at the moment - True Believers in Tennyson and Darwin --

https://redeeminggod.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Red-in-tooth-and-claw.jpg

Flying Orca
03-05-2018, 02:53 PM
Have a link? Sad if true, and totally stupid.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180225184123.htm

Bob Adams
03-05-2018, 04:04 PM
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180225184123.htm

Wow, I wouldn't believe there were that many stupid gun owners. Here is the single reason it has been said gun ownership increases the chance of a family member getting shop. I always called BS on it because I simply couldn't imagine folks not having enough sense to properly store their weapon. The reason given often seems to be availability of the weapon for home defense. That IS Bull. A cheap ($100.00) solution I use and have presented here before. There is no reason not to secure your home defense weapon.

https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/246/246722.jpg

WX
03-05-2018, 04:19 PM
There are something 200 gun related accidents per day in the US.
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/19/health/child-gun-violence-study/index.html

Flying Orca
03-05-2018, 04:37 PM
Here is the single reason it has been said gun ownership increases the chance of a family member getting shop. I always called BS on it because I simply couldn't imagine folks not having enough sense to properly store their weapon.https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/246/246722.jpg

Let's hope your imagination now allows you to accept the research on the effects of gun ownership, at least provisionally. The next step from there is to start thinking about effective legislation that will reduce the harm done by gun violence while allowing most people to still enjoy shooting sports. Of course, reinvention of the wheel isn't necessary, but a lot of responsible gun owners find that next step to be a big one, nonetheless.

David G
03-05-2018, 04:40 PM
Let's hope your imagination now allows you to accept the research on the effects of gun ownership, at least provisionally. The next step from there is to start thinking about effective legislation that will reduce the harm done by gun violence while allowing most people to still enjoy shooting sports. Of course, reinvention of the wheel isn't necessary, but a lot of responsible gun owners find that next step to be a big one, nonetheless.

Just so.

It's unfortunate that people find it hard to accept the fact that THEIR situation, their approach, as good as it may be, is only their own - and may not reflect the larger reality.

Bob Adams
03-05-2018, 04:42 PM
Let's hope your imagination now allows you to accept the research on the effects of gun ownership, at least provisionally. The next step from there is to start thinking about effective legislation that will reduce the harm done by gun violence while allowing most people to still enjoy shooting sports. Of course, reinvention of the wheel isn't necessary, but a lot of responsible gun owners find that next step to be a big one, nonetheless.

Reliable research yes, problem is too much spin on both sides of the issue. A high priority should be safe storage laws. If a kid gets his hands on a gun the owner of the gun should face stiff penalties.

Flying Orca
03-05-2018, 04:51 PM
Reliable research yes, problem is too much spin on both sides of the issue. A high priority should be safe storage laws. If a kid gets his hands on a gun the owner of the gun should face stiff penalties.

I agree, safe storage and transportation laws are central strategies when it comes to reducing gun violence of all kinds. A strong permitting and background check system, magazine restrictions, and stronger restrictions on handguns and infantry weapons would complement such laws nicely and still allow people to enjoy shooting sports; that's the basic setup in Canada.

David G
03-05-2018, 05:00 PM
Reliable research yes, problem is too much spin on both sides of the issue. A high priority should be safe storage laws. If a kid gets his hands on a gun the owner of the gun should face stiff penalties.

Now you're talking about rational gun laws. And as a gun owner, and hunter since an early age, I'm with you. How much of an audience do you think you'll find among the NRA-apologists here?

John Smith
03-05-2018, 06:18 PM
The children getting their hands on guns really pisses me off. It is so easy to avoid. There should be safe storage laws and anyone who owns a gun that does harm because it wasn't properly secured should be prosecuted.

Many agree. The dilemma, IMO, is the more securely one's gun is stored, the less useful it is for defense.

John Smith
03-05-2018, 06:24 PM
Now you're talking about rational gun laws. And as a gun owner, and hunter since an early age, I'm with you. How much of an audience do you think you'll find among the NRA-apologists here?

It's my belief, which could be wrong, the MORE the public is made aware of how many gun incidents there are daily, the more angry they'll be, and the less influence the NRA will have.

The American people may, at some level, know there's a lot, but I don't think they have any idea how large the number is. That's because the 'news' has been ignoring it.

For two weeks I've been tweeting and emailing shows asking they keep a running total year to date. Stephanie Ruhle has begun doing so.

Over 9000 this year and we're only in March. These numbers don't necessary tell us how many were wounded vs killed, but you know the wounded get treatment whether or not they have health insurance.

I believe nearly all Americans, if they see these numbers will be shocked.

Bob Adams
03-05-2018, 06:25 PM
Many agree. The dilemma, IMO, is the more securely one's gun is stored, the less useful it is for defense.

Not really. The vault pictured is the same one I have. It's where my gun was when I needed it. The key is practice just like you do with your weapon. In light or darkness I can have my weapon in my hand in less than 3 seconds.

Flying Orca
03-05-2018, 06:37 PM
Many agree. The dilemma, IMO, is the more securely one's gun is stored, the less useful it is for defense.

Using guns on other human beings is not OK. The USA has to get over the whole self-defense myth.

Bob Adams
03-05-2018, 07:13 PM
Using guns on other human beings is not OK. The USA has to get over the whole self-defense myth.

Sure isn't OK, and self defense is no myth, at least to me.

Peerie Maa
03-05-2018, 07:18 PM
Sure isn't OK, and self defense is no myth, at least to me.

Your experience is an indicator of how badly screwed up is the US

The same year, the Home Secretary ruled that self-defence was no longer a suitable reason for applying for a firearm certificate and directed police to refuse such applications on the grounds that "firearms cannot be regarded as a suitable means of protection and may be a source of danger".[78] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_policy_in_the_United_Kingdom#cite_note-78)Advice from 1937.

John Smith
03-06-2018, 08:53 AM
While I understand the desire to be able to defend oneself, I wonder about various scenarios and in how many of them having a gun on your person actually works for defense.

My guess, and it is a guess, that in most instances, the 'bad guy' had his gun pointed at you before you realize you're under attack. Reaching for your gun is most likely going to lead to you getting shot. If you hear someone entering your home and you can grab your gun, you have a reasonably good chance of defending yourself against the intruder. If there are two or three intruders, and they all are armed, your odds go down.

I keep thinking of Lombardi's words on passing; three things can happen, and two are bad.

PAST ALL THIS TYPE OF DISCUSSION, my point for this thread is that they is an enormous amount of gun violence in this country; FAR MORE THAN PEOPLE REALIZE.

It is MY HOPE that more people in the media will make a point of spreading this data, and that as more and more people realize the magnitude of the problem, cries for doing something will get louder and more persistent.

Far too many are killed daily by guns. Those who survive get medical care, which costs all of us. Isn't it time we end this insanity?