OKAY...what if Kerry had become president.

[uncas]

What he be doing now?
And this is posted because a lot out there like hypothetical situations.

a rare political thread for me... :D

[ 01-16-2006, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Norman Bernstein]

Responses to hypotheticals are obviously wild speculation, so there's really no 'informed' opinion about what might have happened.

Personally, I think Kerry would have been a mediocre president... but I am reasonably certain that he would not have launched an opportunistic war in Iraq, resulting in tens of thousands of casualites, over two thousand dead, hundreds of billions of dollars spent, and no improvement of security against terrorist attacks in the U.S.

9/11 probably would have happened anyhow, and it is possible that Kerry would have devoted those enormous resources squandered in Iraq to actually fighting the terrorists who committed the act, rather than redirecting those resources to some highly idealogical crusade that hasn't made the U.S. any safer... and quite possibly has endangered us even further by fomenting radicalism in the Middle East.

Undoubtedly, the Bush supporters will say the precise opposite, so it's a pretty useless hypothetical.

[ 01-16-2006, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Norman Bernstein ]

[uncas]

Norman...the war had already started...problem one.
2).....It is a hypothetical situation..I meant it to be....but so many of the responses on other threads are also hypothetical...Look at George's last one about bombing a house in Phoenix....or GW being a war criminal....
Goes back to what I was trying to say....a lot of what we put up here is hypothetical....and therefore, unanswerable....and the hypothetical responses are supposted to be valid and worthy of a discussion. :rolleyes:

[ 01-16-2006, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Ian McColgin]

Internationally, he'd have appointed Clinton to the UN and internationalized nation-building (rather than slaughter) in Iraq and Afganistan. This would have put a wholly different complexion on the emerging problems like Iran and we surely would not be drone bombing folk in Pakistan.

If he's really good, he'd have combined the issues of Kyoto and the UN Millenium Project to push towards global fair trade, workers' rights, democratization, and earth-keeping.

On the domestic fronts, he might have gotten to the point where he understands that social security in the broadest sense of the word is a hugely wonderful economic development engin because it encourages personal economic risk and puts a bottom line preventative against exploitation.

Just dreaming.

[Paul Pless]

Just dreaming. at least you recognized it

[uncas]

And with the support of congress and the senate I assume...

[George.]

Originally posted by uncas:
...Look at George's last one about bombing a house in Phoenix....or GW being a war criminal....
The comparison with bombing a house in Phoenix was not a hypothetical. It was an analogy. I point out that many of those who think that bombing three houses in a Pakistani village is an acceptable means to try to kill a terrorist would probably not support bombing three American suburban houses for the same reason. I use an analogy to expose hypocrisy.

As for GW being a war criminal, that is not a hypothetical either.

[Ian McColgin]

Dreaming hypotheticals is healthier than dreaming such delusions as "we're winning the war on terrorism."

[Paul Pless]

Ian, I'll agree with that. Its funny how we on the sidelines of modern politics often dream very differently than the realities we are presented with. This holds true whether we be left or right, I think.

[Norman Bernstein]

Norman...the war had already started...problem one.
Ahh, my apologies... I read 'Kerry', but was thinking 'Gore'.

Hmmmm... that puts a different complexion on things. If I had to hypothesize, I suspect he'd have started drawing down troop levels dramatically, which might actually have limited casualties and defused the situation somewhat, since the insurgency in Iraq is largely directed at the presence of American troops. Instances of violence amongst Iraqis (i.e., between Shia and sunni) would of course continue (as they will anyhow, for the forseeable future). Kerry would have been more likely to use diplomacy to get better participation, internationally, than Bush did.

Would he have extricated us from this quagmire? Nope.

[uncas]

Iraq...is breaking out in CIVIL War...could Kerry really pull the troops out knowing that all hell would break loose....if he did....?
Kurds..Shiites, etc. are already at each other's throats...and would be worse if we pulled out now....and then we have Iran...who is waiting for a total....breakdown of the country...Can or could Kerry afford that...?

[uncas]

George...regarding Phoenix....so...say it is an analogy...I'll go with that.
But...if there was a nucleus of terrorists that some other country wanted extadicted, I think that the US would say...we'll help...hence no bombing necessary.....It would not nec. reach that point...
The gov. of Pakistan can not say that....as it is hogtied.
So analogy becomes hypothetical....
I would like to think that we would support any attempts to extridict individuals wanted for criminal activities in their countries.
Hence...room for discussion...negoiation...implementation before resorting to bombs.

Ps...with the political situation in Pakistan....which I still does not match that in the US, what options were there?
With the analogy of bombing Phoenix....options were available and support would probably have been forthcoming rather quickly.
This is why I do not think it is a realistic analogy....

[ 01-16-2006, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Norman Bernstein]

Kurds..Shiites, etc. are already at each other's throats...and would be worse if we pulled out now.... Well, it isn't much better that we're there, is it.

The generals and other military experts who said we'd need 500,000 troops in Iraq to insure security for our own troops plus to suppress a civil war were ignored, and retired or 'dissed'... so the troops we DO have there are serving as targets and not much else... and no amount of occupation troops are going to be able to do much of ANYTHING about the centuries of emnity between Shia and Sunni. We're not making progress, we're simply pressing down on the lid of the boiling tea kettle, and nothing short of permanent occupation will keep things under control.

Of course, the plan IS for permanent occupation. Expect more of the same... until the neo-conservatives of thrown out of power.

[uncas]

And Norman...when the others get in office...they will discover that they have no alteratives either...Wonder how they will cover that in the media....?
A solution please...one which makes sense, is workable...and well.....
Get the pic...No way...will there be any difference in foreign policy...no matter who is president.
The mess has to be cleaned up first...promises hold as much water as a sieve....

[Norman Bernstein]

I agree, uncas, there are indeed precious few alternatives... and ANY president who gets elected while we're still in this mess will have few alternatives. In the end, the ONLY alternative will be the 'Vietnam' gambit, i.e., reach a certain point, declare victory, withdraw, and lose anyhow... Nixon's strategy.

If you're suggesting that things wouldn't have bee nmuch different with Kerry in office, you're probably right... but the inevitable end will have come much sooner. As things stand now, there simply won't be any 'end' while Bush is still in office. Expect another thousand or more lives lost before January 2009.

[uncas]

Norman...for once...and I almost hate to admit it.... :D I agree with ya.
Now we will leave the death penalty...abortion...or do we agree on that...out of it.... :D

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

If George Bush can be president almost anybody can be president.

Charlie

[ 01-16-2006, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Cuyahoga Chuck ]

[uncas]

Charlie...onlky if they have money...money...MONEY!

[ssor]

I think that you're not going to find any solution to these questions hypothetical or not.

[Billy Bones]

Originally posted by Cuyahoga Chuck:
If George Bush can be president almost anybody can be president.

CharlieExcept, apparently, Kerry.

To have lost an election to Bush has to be the basest humiliation this country can muster.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Kerry may have been handed a gift by the Good Lord. Following George Bush and his merry men will be a herculian task and might only be good for one term anyway.
The best I can derive from my guy's loss is that 8 years of Bush should shake some sense into all the one-issue freaks who seem to vote for anyone who plucks their favorite string.
Topics like "when does life begin?" or "same sex marriage" won't be high on the agenda for those that can't get their medications or pay their heat bill and may even be fearful that their retirement check will disappear.
George Bush was a wake up call if nothing else.

Charlie

[Norman Bernstein]

Norman...for once...and I almost hate to admit it.... I agree with ya.
Now we will leave the death penalty...abortion...or do we agree on that...out of it.... Hmmm.... there's a relationship between Iraq and abortion? smile.gif

Come to think of it, I never did post my follow-up to those abortion questions I asked... maybe this afternoon.

[cedar savage]

I'm about to turn blue here.

[Memphis Mike]

"Personally, I think Kerry would have been a mediocre president."

He may have been just mediocre but we don't even have that right now.

All we have is two goobers in office who know how to throw Texas tea parties and that's about it.

[Billy Bones]

Originally posted by Cuyahoga Chuck:

Topics like "when does life begin?" or "same sex marriage" won't be high on the agenda for those that can't get their medications or pay their heat bill and may even be fearful that their retirement check will disappear.
Yes, except that never in the history of the world has a nation been as prosperous as the US is now and has been for decades, irrespective of incumbent. I think people are starting to realize that pinning a platform onto the poor starved oppressed masses won't work when that demographic has disappeared, or nearly. And don't forget, pension fraud was rampant during the Clinton admin. It only came to light during the Bush presidency.

On my little island home the colloquial island car ran reasonably well and you had your pick of the little rustbuckets for under 500 bucks. Since 2000 everyone here has gotten into big ol' suvs and you can't find an island car for anything. My fellow islanders are accutely aware of whose presidency they were and are under.

Criticize Bush all you want, but if you want to make political headway you better do it from a position of knowledge and historical accuracy.

[Norman Bernstein]

I think people are starting to realize that pinning a platform onto the poor starved oppressed masses won't work when that demographic has disappeared, or nearly. It may have 'dissapeared', but only from the collective consciousness...it's not gone, by any means. It's just a demographic with little or no political power and an unattractive look that causes people to not want to consider it's existence.

[George.]

Originally posted by uncas:
...with the political situation in Pakistan....which I still does not match that in the US, what options were there?
The mess in Pakistan is not an unfortunate, isolated incident. It is part of a pattern. The US is constantly using airstrikes to try to take out terrorists and insurgents, and the standard of evidence is pretty damned low, resulting in stacks of innocent victims.

Look it up. Airstrikes in Iraq are up, with stacks of innocent casualties and little positive results to show. Iraq, you know - the country where the US has ground troops that could go in by land and check things out before blowing them up. Just like in Phoenix.

The fact is that the policy of this administration is to bomb from afar based on mere suspicion. It shows a total lack of regard for civilian casualties. And it treats the entire world as enemy territory, subject to bombing whenever convenient.

War criminals.

[LeeG]

getting photos riding a road bike. Speaking French.

[ 01-16-2006, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: LeeG ]

[uncas]

and George...the solution is to take Am. troops in there and have a few dozen killed....Yup...that would hit the political pundants right where they like it...more Am. soldiers killed...and they are keeping count.
They are already complaining about Am. deaths...
So...one way or the other....we lose...again....

[George.]

So you are arguing that it is OK to kill innocent civilians in order to reduce risk for American troops. Even though innocent civilian casualties outnumber US military casualties by an order of magnitude or more.

How exactly does that differ from bombing a housing project in order to reduce the risk of police officers being shot?

How many raghead lives are worth a single American life?

[uncas]

George...come on.....
You write about the wrongs about bombing...okay...All I did was say...okay, the solution therefore is to send in troops...and pointed out that Am troops dying would go over big...in this country...as everyone is keeping count...'
George...give me a solution...How would YOU eliminate terrorists...suspected of being in a house in Pakistan...knowing that the pakistani government is hogtied...
Come on...give me a real...not hypothetical alternative....not an analogy....Give me one...
I'll bet it is centered on diplomacy...why I think that...well, I've read your posts.

And we are off the subject...what would Kerry do...here...? call on his idol...Tedward Kennedy....RIGHT!!!!! good plan...I'm sure he has discovered that he can drive over a bridge...and be readmitted to Harvard after being booted out for cheating....

Call in the Swift Boats....

[ 01-16-2006, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[George.]

Uncas, I would not bomb a village from a drone plane because I "suspect" a terrorist is hiding in there. Sometimes, you just can't get the bad guy - you have to wait for next time.

Even if they had gotten him, there would be 18 innocent victims dead next to him. Some say that this is acceptable. I ask: how many innocent victims per terrorist are acceptable?

If you thought bin Laden was hiding in Karachi, would that justify nuking the town? Where do you draw the line?

And let us not forget - the reason we hate terrorists is because they are not bothered by killing innocent victims in pursuit of their goals.

[ 01-16-2006, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: George. ]

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Things Kerry couldn't do:

Get out of Iraq

Get out of Afghanistan

No matter who was elected, the war in Iraq was already a mess, that was liable to take a long long time to fix. Countries who had not committed troops to Iraq were not likely to join, despite Kerry's comments about talking to allies.

One of the greatest assets Kerry would have brought to the table in foreign policy is diplomacy. The Bush administration has managed to seriously piss off enough allies that they will simply watch America fiscally bleed in the war on terror. Europe is still polite to the United States, but there is a definite diplomatic chill in the air. Even in Canada, relations are as bad as they have been in a very long time.

It's likely Kerry would have humbled himself and the USA and gone to the UN for help. This venue would have provided a way to ask for more help in Iraq, and I think that some form of aid, or even better, a plan that included peacekeeping forces at some point.

Guantanamo Bay would not be the concentration camp it is. The ghost prisons the same. Kerry has enough political savvy to realize that, even if these facilities WERE gathering info, (which they don't) the appearance does more damage than it's worth. The participation of the world community is more important to the USA.

Bad intel would still exist, but I doubt that random murders of civilians would take place as often.

Conclusion: A more measured, careful approach to the current situation, with more humility, and a larger participation of allies. A concerted effort to gain back the incredible amount of respect that has been lost for the USA throughout the world. That is really the Bush legacy.

[ 01-16-2006, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm Jardine ]

[uncas]

George...Yuo say they were innocent....You think they were innocent...the Arabs say they were innocent...
What the hell were they doing there...
Guilty by association....

If I found myself surrounded by....those termed as terrorists...in a house....I would get my butt outta there so fast and head for another country...no on would be able to catch me...
Innocent....everyone is innocent.....
Enough George...discussing this with you..is well....dizzying...as all ya do is go round and round...
Same stuff...different post....
Still never answered what you would do...or Kerry for that matter....except for the obvious...I wqouldn't bomb...I'd do nothing...I sit on my ass and wait for another day...
When would that day come George...when Intel...gives you more info...

[ljb5]

Okay, so no one can say for certain that he would have been better....

But could he have been any worse?

Anyone have any specific ideas of how Kerry might have been worse?

[uncas]

He could just sit there and do nothing but pontificate as had been suggested....

[ljb5]

Originally posted by uncas:
He could just sit there and do nothing but pontificate as had been suggested....I'm not sure that would be worse.

Anything else?

[uncas]

No nothing else...a do nothing president...that would make everyone happy....
A do nothing president of the last remaining superpower...when a lot of gov. leaders expect something...yup...sounds good....

[ 01-16-2006, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Sorry,Billy, but, you are not my historian of note.
Trying to constanly deflect Bush's shortcomings by blaming a guy who has been gone for more than half a decade won't get you space on any "to the editor' pages. You're doing that ol' Neocon kneejerk trick.
Bush's legacy is going to be slapped around by historians for the next hundred years.
Although it's kind of early for in depth analysis I would characterize these last five presidential years as a single minded and unswerving drive to fix problems that most informed observers could not see.
Bill Clinton, for all his petty faults, left the Republic better than he found it. He made a lot of mistakes but he never made the same mistake twice. And he never compounded his mistakes by arguing that his medicine was THE medicine and only a few more doses, a few more doses, a few more doses would do the trick.
Bush surrounded himself with zealots who can most charitably described as "hidebound". They always counciled for the most egregious course and could not see their sins if they were tattooed on their arms.
So hang in there, Billy. A tropical island is good place to practice the kneejerk cha-cha-chaaa. Heat? we don' need no stinkin'heat. Gas? We can cruise this island on a stinkin' bicycle.

Charlie

"All together now! Back to back belly to....."

[ 01-16-2006, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Cuyahoga Chuck ]

[Alan D. Hyde]

As long as we're considering this hypothetical, how about another, equally probable...

What if pigs could fly???

http://revmike.us/Flying%20Pig.jpg

:D :D :D

Alan

[George.]

Originally posted by uncas:
What the hell were they doing there...
Guilty by association....

Uncas, first of all, they blew up THREE houses. Is living next door to a house which may or may not contain a terrorist a capital offense?

Second, there was no terrorist there. So guilty by association with what? A rumour?

You are right. In this particular case, I would do nothing. Just like a cop might let a fleeing suspect go, rather than fire into a crowd. Sometimes, that is how life is.

You haven't answered my question. Where do you draw the line? How many innocent victims is it OK to kill to get a terrorist? 18? 100? 20,000?

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

A do nothing president of the last remaining superpower That just might be better than killing people all the time.

As for the superpower quote, China is due to eclipse your economy in terms of size in about 4 years. Doesn't that give them some status?

[uncas]

Of course...killing innocent people is not right....and am against it....
So the bottom line is...George would do nothing at all....fine....I guess that will fly with some.....Is it the right move? who knows...it certainly is the easy way out...and I am sure that we would be complimented for following it...
We are...again, damn'd if we do...damn'd if we don't....

China is gonna be a superpower...well in masses alone...it already is. and financially.in the world market..I agree....

[George.]

Uncas, I would do nothing at all in this particular case.. Thin intel, no one on the ground, allied country, densely-built village.

It does not mean that I would do nothing at all about terrorism.

I honestly believe that the occasional missed "opportunity" is well worth it in the long run, if it will avoid alienating allies and causing the masses to hate you.

In the long run, terrorism can only be defeated by depriving it of the passive support or tolerance it gets from the masses and from elements in Islamic national governments. Any marginal benefit that might be derived from aerial bombing of civilian areas, torture, secret prisons, etc., is more than negated by the fact that it makes terrorism seem more like an "justified" response to the average Muhammed.

You can't get rid of mosquitoes by bombing them. You can only get rid of them by draining the swamp - and bomb craters tend to turn the ground even swampier.

BTW, I agree with you. For certain segments of global opinion, the US is "damned if you do and damned if you don't." The problem is that for the rest of world opinion - the "silent majority" that has always admired America for what it stood for - you are losing respect, and becoming "damned."

[uncas]

Uncas, I would do nothing at all in this particular case.. George...
So for discussion only....A group of terrorists have been thought of meeting in a house...somewhere....contemplating/organizing a strike.somewhere in Europe or the US..no we don't know whether they are but business is business...They are however, putting the final touches on their plan....
The president hears about this through intel networks.....how good is the intelligence...based on previous intel...perhaps not good....Okay, what does he do...take a chance that intel is more than say 50% accurate....or leave them alone...
So...he doesn't do anything...
Two months later...a hotel in Berlin is bombed....500 killed and injured....Information comes out...the Pres. knew about this meeting...information indicates that the meeting was the time the bombing was planned....and the pres. did nothing...
How would the world react to this?
.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Two months later...a hotel in Berlin is bombed....500 killed and injured....Information comes out...the Pres. knew about this meeting...information indicates that the meeting was the time the bombing was planned....and the pres. did nothing...
How would the world react to this? Re-elect him?

911 was known about in advance.

I think our point is Jamie, that random bombings that kill civilians makes the USA very much like the people they seek.

[uncas]

PMJ....
I think our point is Jamie, that random bombings that kill civilians makes the USA very much like the people they seek.

I understand that.....I guess sometimes one fights fire with fire....not that I like it....nor do I advocate it...but I don't see any options....in some cases....
We have done nothing in the past...well not much...the USCole(Coal), the bombings at various embasies....
We did try to wipe out Ben Laden...think it was Clinton...in I think '98....a passing clip on some talk show...we missed...and no one was hurt...
The action was not condemned...but it failed....Now if someone...other than BLaden had been killed...it would have made the news big time.

[George.]

Sounds like the "ticking time bomb" scenario that is often used in lame attempts to justify torture. And just as implausible.

Turn it around. The meeting is between US right-wing imperialists. They are planning to fake some intelligence and invade Iraq. Tens of thousands will die, the country will be devastated, its economy wrecked, its already-low standard of living will become dismal.

Some Islamic group finds out about this. Would they be justified in flying a plane into the American Enterprise Institute, even though it might kill some innocent co-workers who were just harmless right-wing wackoes, or their secretaries? Guilt by association, and all that.

How about nuking Langley, suburbs and all, just before the CIA orchestrated the string of South American coups that resulted in dirty wars and thousands tortured and missing? Would a South American patriot be justified in doing that?

[uncas]

:rolleyes:
Anything I say...will be answered with well...the same comments....
Nothing I say....is gonna make any difference.
I give up the field...George....I give a scenario...get five right back...
In essence...I'm beating my head against the wall...When you come up with a pluasible way to end the mess we are in...and doing nothing ain't one of them...post it...I'll read it with great interest.
Am I happy with what is going on...no....would I like to see something better going on...yes...Am I dreaming...yes....

[Dan McCosh]

I don't think the issue is what Kerry could have done, but who he would have appointed, particularly as secretary of state and secretary of defense. The bad intel wasn't as bad as the bad advice. I don't think it is at all clear who Kerry would have brought into Washington. That was one weak point in his campaign.

As for the analogy of bombing a US suburb. This has happened, more or less. In the 1960s, a gunman ran into a church in Detroit, run by Aretha Franklin's father. The police opened fire on the church with semi-automatic weapons , which was occupied by several hundred men, women and children attending a meeting inside, nearly blowing it apart. The congregation was then arrested and held without bond or charges for a couple of days, before being released in a controversial court decision.

[uncas]

Dan...i thought Powell was a good choice for Sec. of State....Based on his ratings....and the expecations, he should have been a great one....

[George.]

Originally posted by uncas:
...When you come up with a pluasible way to end the mess we are in...1. Impeach Bush and Cheney.

2. Try them as war criminals, along with their immediate underlings.

3. Stop violating international law and your own Constitution.

4. Earn back the respect and admiration of the rest of the world (this may take a while).

5. Find a plausible excuse and get out of Iraq. If it implodes, screw them. Their problem - not ours.

6. Devote all your diplomatic, military, and intelligence resources to the fight against al-Qaeda, without acting in ways that alienate allies and drive the Islamic masses to sympathize with the terrorists.

[Dan McCosh]

How about Powell as Secretary of State and John McCain as Secretary of Defense? Or at least some evidence of abiliity to recruit a highly qualified government? It never looked like it was going to happen, at least to me. In the larger picture, if you couldn't put together an effective election campaign, how could you be expected to put together an effective government?

[LeeG]

If Kerry was president you wouldn't have president Cheney/Rumsfeld. Folks,,at some point you've got to acknowledge that GW isn't running squat. He's a Texas governor guided by professionals. Trust the professionals, they're paid for this work.

[uncas]

George...I'll answer...

1) Impeach the president....It would blow this country apart...almost did in 92....and 74. I'm not sure whether this country could afford to go through that again....
2) If Bush etc. has committed War Crimes and has been found guilty....the leaders of other countries can bring him to trial...this would be an international effort...no one has stepped foreward as far as I can see..to accuse him openly of war crimes..
3) Earn respect....never happen...feared yes.
We really have not been respected since WW2...when we came in on the side of the allies and shortened the war, forgave many of the debts...which many countries hated...etc because they felt as though they now owed the US....No one likes a handout and those that receive them, have a tendency to nip at the hand that hellps them.
5) We got rid of Saddam...if we just up and left...we would be lambasted the same way as we were after leaving Vietnam.....
Cut and Run USA...got a nice ring to it...
6) not possible without pissing off some sect, group, fanatics....who all have relatives who are not as fanatical.
There..my response.

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by LeeG:
If Kerry was president you wouldn't have president Cheney/Rumsfeld. Folks,,at some point you've got to acknowledge that GW isn't running squat. He's a Texas governor guided by professionals. Trust the professionals, they're paid for this work.We need a better brand of professionals.

[George.]

OK, uncas, I'll answer too.

1) Impeach the president....It would blow this country apart...

Your Leader is blowing your country and the world apart. Couldn't be worse.

2) If Bush etc. has committed War Crimes and has been found guilty....the leaders of other countries can bring him to trial...

You are kidding, right? As much chance of happening as the Gauls bringing Cesar to trial.

3) Earn respect....never happen...feared yes.

Uncas, this is the core of this discussion, and believe me, you are mistaken.

The US has had great respect and admiration - yes, admiration - all over the world, for decades, until very recently.

Yes, the leftist fringe and the political opportunists have always bashed the US for political gain. Yes, some ignorant fools have bought their drivel. But the great majority of common people always knew, in their gut, that the US was a model society - a model to be emulated. A beacon of freedom, a voice for human rights, a shining example of the virtues of democracy and free markets.

Not any more. And that is not good, for any of us who share this world.

Before, people used to say: "in America, they do it like this. So should we." And it was a voice for reform, and progress.

Now, people are saying: "See, even the Americans do this. Why shouldn't we be allowed?" And it is a voice for opression, and tyranny.

5) We got rid of Saddam...if we just up and left...we would be lambasted the same way as we were after leaving Vietnam...

You shouldn't have bothered. There are scores of others just as bad - some of them are even your sons-of-bitches. A lame excuse to invade and wreck a country, only excusable if you had at least done it right, and not on the cheap and dumb.

Now, own up to it, and pay the price.

And you were lambasted for Vietnam not so much because you left, but because of how long you stayed there killing people, in pursuit of a chimera.

[ 01-16-2006, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: George. ]

[Norman Bernstein]

George, you can forget trying to use Vietnam as any kind of example. The party line amongst the right wingers I've talked to is that the only reason for the disaster in Vietnam was the 'fifth column'... 'defeatists', domestically, who didn't support the war.

It utterly amazes me that anyone could buy a line of crap like that.... but they do :(

[George.]

BTW, uncas, I notice you skipped "stop violating international law and your own Constitution." ;)

[Billy Bones]

*yawn*

Chuck demonstrates the tactic of confronting reasonable discourse with ad hominem attack.

Or is it only an ad hominem attack when a nonliberal sort does it? Otherwise it's...

Business as usual.

*yawn*

[uncas]

Noticed that too after I posted...
If the pres...has violated international law and there is positive evidence...than he should go to the Hague...and the leaders of other countries...who have followed and pressed for and gotten other leaders (Saddam...example) who have broken international law..to face trial...then they can do the same with GW.
Where is the call from other leaders to bring him to court...
I'm still mulling over some sort of reply to your earlier post....although I know that no matter what I say.....is well...moot in Brazil..

pss..George...as this was my thread...we are way off topic...back to the current president...not Kerry...the possible do nothing candidate in his swift boat....Then again, I let it happen...

[ 01-16-2006, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[George.]

Originally posted by uncas:
Noticed that too after I posted...
If the pres...has violated international law and there is positive evidence...than he should go to the Hague...Uncas, right at the beginning of his rule, your Leader pulled out of the ICC, making himself and his . Which may have been part of the plan.

PS: Reason and good faith is never moot. Not even in Brazil. smile.gif

[Alan D. Hyde]

The Hague does not (and cannot, as presently constituted) have ANY legitimate authority over the U.S. or over U.S. citizens...

Here are the grounds of legitimacy, well-summarized---

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. "

***

Alan

[uncas]

I don't think Saddam was a member of the ICC...
And I think I know where he is....
Regardless...this is a thread on Kerry and a question as to what he would do.
I don't like Bush.....I am really unhappy...as a voter...with what is going on....It is difficult to defend him....and am making an effort as you keep pushing....I have tried...however to do so...
So...perhaps arguing with me....is also moot.
and impeachment is not a card in the works...OUR Constitution makes it very difficult to impeach a sitting president...has happen 2 times in 217 years...It is not like coming up with a dinner recipe.....

Now if Hillary becomes president...I'm heading for Brazil.....

[George Jung]

Now that could be a real eye-opener for you, Uncas...

[uncas]

I don't mind my eyes opened....It's the rest of my anatomy I'm worried about including my wallet....yup.money..I earned what I have...I deserve to spend it the way I want....and not to...well give it away....liberally....

maybe I should invest in some whitewater land deals....

But to give her some credit...and of course it probalby was stated for political reasons...She did say we can't just haphazardly pull out of Iraq....Yea...must have been said for political reasons....

[ 01-16-2006, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[ingo]

3) Earn respect....never happen...feared yes.

Uncas, this is the core of this discussion, and believe me, you are mistaken.

The US has had great respect and admiration - yes, admiration - all over the world, for decades, until very recently.

Yes, the leftist fringe and the political opportunists have always bashed the US for political gain. Yes, some ignorant fools have bought their drivel. But the great majority of common people always knew, in their gut, that the US was a model society - a model to be emulated. A beacon of freedom, a voice for human rights, a shining example of the virtues of democracy and free markets.

Not any more. And that is not good, for any of us who share this world.

Before, people used to say: "in America, they do it like this. So should we." And it was a voice for reform, and progress.

Now, people are saying: "See, even the Americans do this. Why shouldn't we be allowed?" And it is a voice for opression, and tyranny.

I can underline this. Under Clinton the US was admired by a majority of Germans. The economy was fine, the political opinions were moderate, Clinton was bright. Even some of the military actions were well supported.

Gore was considered as an idiot. Same with Bush in his first year. We had books with Bush-jokes AND THEY WERE ALL TRUE! Then 9-11. a shock. We were sitting in front of out TVs with tears in the eyes. I remember that I had to fly on the 9-12 to a business meeting and I had to think of a friend that was working ín the WTC and we had no message from her (thank god she was late at work and the evacuation had already begun). My - and most other Germans thought was: Kill the bastards! And of course we supported the war against the Taliban and Al-Quaida. And we still have some thousand soldiers there.

But what happend then: Bush wanted to start a war against Iraq. OK - Saddam was bad and it was not a democracy. But this is true for many countries that are supported by the US like Saudi-Arabia... Why Saddam? He had no mass-destruction weapons and was not cooperating with terrorists. He was a conservative non-islamistic dictator that was supported by many years from western countries (yes, Germany too, shame on us as on the US). Everybody knows that all the "facts" that Powel presented the UN were lies and it was just a matter of oil that you need for your SUVs and air-conditions.
Schröder was an idiot, too. But he said the truth that starting a war in Iraq would destabilise the whole region.

And - back to the Kerry - well, the most positive you can say about him is that he is better than Bush. Not SUCH a great idiot :D

All this "US-bashing"-accusations make me sick. They are wrong. We do not bash the US, we bash Bush. Find another fine President that has charisma, is intelligent, not lying too much, takes care of international relations, respecting human rights and we will be best friends again...

Hillary is well loved in Germany for example smile.gif

[uncas]

All this "US-bashing"-accusations make me sick. They are wrong. We do not bash the US, we bash Bush. Find another fine President that has charisma, is intelligent, not lying too much, takes care of international relations, respecting human rights and we will be best friends again...
ingo

Hillary is well loved in Germany for example...ingo

and anyone that fits that criterea wouldn't run....
And why is Hillary liked in Germany.....?

[ 01-16-2006, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Alan D. Hyde]

Because, Jamie, she's HERE, not THERE... :D

Alan

[uncas]

now that makes sense....I'm afraid....
Of course...after watching a select few democrats pontificating on the stand during the hearings...she may have some competition.....

and then we have ted....
God are we run by a bunch of losers...old fuddy duddies, crippled politicans...and crooks or what...

[ 01-16-2006, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[George Jung]

Hillary is well loved in Germany for example "Take my wife - please!" comes to mind...

[ingo]

Originally posted by uncas:
All this "US-bashing"-accusations make me sick. They are wrong. We do not bash the US, we bash Bush. Find another fine President that has charisma, is intelligent, not lying too much, takes care of international relations, respecting human rights and we will be best friends again...
ingo

Hillary is well loved in Germany for example...ingo

and anyone that fits that criterea wouldn't run....
And why is Hillary liked in Germany.....?No, we have no problems with conservative presidents if they behave in a "normal" way. Sorry, I can't descibe it more precisely, but Bush is far from what we consider normal. Clinton was and even Bush sen. was it more that Bush jun.

Hillary is liked because we believe that she can think from A to B. All interviews that she gave to German newspapers that I read were making sense and did considering international matters. Why should we love a president that only thinking of the needs of the US (like he understands them)? Guantanamo is for example diametrical against our confessions. If they are criminals: Take them to a court. If they are POWs: You have to release them now...

[uncas]

All intereviews were probalby scripted....
She practices here first...determines which way the wind blows...refines her comments and then, takes them abroad...
She is a wolf disguised in lamb's wool...
Granted, she is smarter than her quasi husband...and has learned her lessons well.
Notice how quiet she has been lately.....learning mode.....
Can't say anything negative about her until she opens her mouth...hence the silence....
She is a pro though...gotta hand her that....

[ingo]

Originally posted by uncas:
now that makes sense....I'm afraid....
Of course...after watching a select few democrats pontificating on the stand during the hearings...she may have some competition.....

and then we have ted....
God are we run by a bunch of losers...old fuddy duddies, crippled politicans...and crooks or what...Don't worry: We have the same problem. I am not sure about Merkel (she's a physicist like me) but 80% of our leaders are loosers, too :(

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

[QUOTE]"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,

except those who are held in our concentration camps, those people are not equal

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights,

except when we arbitrarily suspend their rights, on matters of "national security" No definition of this suspension is required.

that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

except if you are a citizen of another nation that we deem to be a threat to our country. No definition is required, and no proof has to be presented. You will be considered collateral damage if killed.

That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. "

We suscribe to justice, but only our definition of it. Any rules of international law or convention may not be applied to our government or our citizens, regardless of how heinously we disregard said law or convention.

;)

[kenkongs]

uncas - this might help
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HA13Ak01.html

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

uncas,
All your diatribes against Kerry and Hillary are based on nothing. Zero. Zilch.
Either one of these folks might a world beater president. We'll never know if neither gets elected. And, of course, they might make terrible presidents. We can't know that either for the same reason.
One thing is for sure. Right now we are sitting on the political dime. The Bush administration has done poorly and looks like it will never alter course. In some ways that may be a good thing. If past practice is any measure, their new policies might be as bizarre and destructive as their old.
So you got a choice, Fish or cut bait. But cut out all that hand wringing and protestations that the alternatives are no good. If you voted for Bush it is obvious that your judgement isn't sound. So next time pick the candidate that you're in love with but vote for his opponent.

Charlie

"Who ever said I didn't help my fellow man?"

[High C]

Originally posted by Cuyahoga Chuck:
...If you voted for Bush it is obvious that your judgement isn't sound...There he goes! :D

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Where would that be?

[High C]

Originally posted by Cuyahoga Chuck:
Where would that be?http://www.softwaremag.com/archive/2001feb/images/ChasingItsTail.jpeg

[Phil Heffernan]

So you got a choice, Fish or cut bait. But cut out all that hand wringing and protestations that the alternatives are no good. My sentiments exactly. We need to stop all this hand-wringing over Bush, and start thinking about the future...I, for one, support McCain, but I'm open to whomever, that either party can make a good case for...GW is already gone, in my book, he'll fail in the future as he has in the past, we gotta live with him for 2 more years, and then it's a new game...Start thinking people...

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

As much as I like McCain he let Bush slap him around something terrible during his presidential bid. It's been forgotten but Bush's guys did a number on McCain's military record. Spreading inuendos about someone who did 5+ years in one of the most notorious POW hellholes is beyond forgiveness.
I greatly admire McCain but he's too touchy-feely when it comes to his Republican comrads. That old saying about dancing with "those that brung ya'" has to have some limits.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

High,
Does the Slidell Institute for This and That know that you are using an image of their signature holding?

Charlie

[pipefitter]

Kerry seemed too programmed to me.Half of a Bill Clinton with a military hero crutch.Hillary,she might be a pleasant surprise after all. How much of Bill Clinton was Hillary during those eight years.Wonder how many "told you so" happened from discussions in the bedroom of that white household.Just the pressure from a society scarred from the Bush era might be enough to make an intelligent woman(first woman president) a damned fine president.She would have alot at stake right out of the gate.I haven't followed her much through her time as senator but does she get alot of flack from her opposition and does she have the nads to hold her own as a senator? Help me out here and tell me why she wouldn't be as good or better than the urchins that are our other choices. Also,she would have a good former president in her corner.

[ 01-17-2006, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

[Art Read]

"George Bush was a wake up call if nothing else."

Exactly. (And, George, Charlie... Your political opinions are "remarkable".) Read any contemporary critiques of Lincoln, "The Great Ape", lately? Or Tory/Loyalist, (and even frequent "Colonial/Rebel") opinion of Washington and Adams? Talk to me in fifty years.

In fifty or a hundred years, Clinton will be considered as significant, and as effective, as Buchanan, (James, not Pat!) is considered now. Really want to hang your star on THAT? ;)

[ 01-17-2006, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[uncas]

Art...at least there have been some good books re: Adams and Washington lately....I should rephrase that...fairly discussed books on these two..
And one on Jefferson which takes some of the gloss off of him...

And Chuck...interestingly...Whitewater scandal is there.at least the amazing amount of money she earned selling that property....regarding the Clintons.....I still have questions about that.
And knowing nothing about Hillary...two things...I guess I should not have mentioned that I thought she was a lot smarter than her husband...afterall, I don't know anything about her and 2...perhjaps I don't know anything about her because she changes position so many times.

[ 01-17-2006, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Art Read]

People ridiculed Teddy Roosevelt for being a wannabe Admiral/Soldier/Statesman/Cowboy/Great White Hunter... In no particular order and with with pretentions of grandeur in all no less. Yet it may be honestly said he did them all. Quite well. Think what you may about his politics, he set the stage for America's place in the 20th century.

I'd love to see his "reception" on these pages today! ;)

[ 01-17-2006, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Art Read]

(Reading 1776 now... LOVED "John Adams" and "Truman"! ;) )

[uncas]

Art...BULLY on ya!!!!!! :D
Now there is a face who deserves to be on the rock....
I have a lot of respect and admiration for TR....

[Art Read]

In my humble opinion, Ernest Hemmingway was just a TR "wannabe"... :D

[uncas]

WOW.....EH...and TR.....well they were both authors....

[Art Read]

Think about it... TR: Spanish American War. EH: Spanish Civil War. TR: Buffalo hunting. EH: Running with the bulls. Both: African big game hunting, Sport fishing off Florida. Both: Very large heads. TR: Political suicide. EH: Practical suicide. (I'm sure there's more, but TR was ALWAYS twenty-thirty years ahead of him! ;) )

[uncas]

Well TR was born...well closer to 43 yrs ahead of him....EH
I did sense where you were going with this though....

And political Suicide...gotta a point...biggest mistake he made was promising not to run in 08...in 04...he didn't
But...as a third party candidate....in 12...he beat the sitting president in votes....Of course, that president of Princeton and NJ Gov....took advantage of that... :D

[Art Read]

Yeah, but Teddy got a late start! All those pesky "real" jobs!

[uncas]

I donno.....wasn't TR in the State House...legislature...in the early 1880's when his first wife died....so...that makes him...ummmm..let's see....24 or 5..
And ya failed to mention...Nobel Peace Prize.TR..and the prize for literature....EH

[Art Read]

See! I TOLD you EH was just a "wannabe"! ;)

(And wasn't all those pesky "real" jobs, like Legislator and Secretary of the Navy and Governor of New York and Vice-President, etc, etc, that kept TR back?)

[ 01-17-2006, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[uncas]

Actually looking at this...he was a bit more than a wannabe...
I don't think that EH wanted to be president though.....

[Art Read]

Perhaps not. It started as a quick joke. But now I wonder? There's something there, no?

[uncas]

Actually...I think there is.....surprised me as well....after putting some pieces together....

would have loved being a fly on the wall...if these two ever had sat down for a chat...

[ 01-17-2006, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Art Read]

One thing I'm certain of, however. Neither man would ever stoop to blatantly "hijacking" a WoodenBoatForum thread! ;)

[Donn]

Originally posted by Art Read:
..Sport fishing off Florida..More than just fishing off Florida and Cuba. Hemingway was probably more serious about fishing than he was about writing. He fished Idaho and Montana, and he used to spend weeks hitch-hiking around north-central Michigan, camping and fishing for Brookies. His favorite food was fresh-caught Trout, rolled in corn-meal and fried in bacon fat over a campfire.

[uncas]

And TR on the ranch...and Montana....Bear hunting...and Africa....and oh yes...the Amazon...River

[ 01-17-2006, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Art Read]

Gentleman... I think we've got the first ever, WoodenBoatForum, American, Political/Literary/Natural History, co-operative thesis proposal going here! :D

[uncas]

And neither of them owned a sailboat.... :rolleyes:

let's see...take into account the roles each played in the wars....one...a medic....one a self claimed Col.
We got books on natural history and the Old Man and the Sea.
We got man vs. nature...overcoming hardship.
we have Nobel prizes.....
Both cover several continents in their travels....

[ 01-17-2006, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Art Read]

"His favorite food was fresh-caught Trout"

(I guessed that after reading "The Big Two-Hearted River"... Made me want to go catch a trout for breakfast!)

[ 01-17-2006, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[uncas]

A Dolly Varden?

[Art Read]

Perhaps... (I wouldn't swear Teddy never sailed...) But they both had fine wooden boats at various times in their lives...

[uncas]

Am gonna see what kinds they had...and they had to have a few woodies....
Don't think either had the patience to sail a boat...

[ 01-17-2006, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Art Read]

"....one...a medic...."

Medic cum amateur "war correspondent/unknown novelist". Let's not gild the the lily.

(I was wrong... He started writing earlier than I thought...)

[ 01-17-2006, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Mrleft8]

I've seen pics of Papa on a sailboat, can't say what kind, or if he owned it.

[uncas]

Yup...medical capacity position WW1....
And his boat was Pillar...

[Art Read]

Which is being "preserved for posterity" :D ashore in Havana someplace...

[uncas]

Thought he gave Pillar to the US Navy in WW2?

and TR was in the Dakotas...not Montana....

[ 01-17-2006, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Donn]

Originally posted by uncas:

And his boat was Pillar...PILAR

<img src= "http://www.prensalatina.com.mx/pictures/habana_museo_hemingway2.jpg">

[uncas]

Thanks for the correction Donn....I was gonna look it up....went off the cuff instead....
phonetically close though..... :D

[Donn]

Like Uncass? tongue.gif

[uncas]

Yea...I guess that would work too.....
Kinda like my name...I've seen it....Jaimie, Jamie, Jammie....
The key is...I know who is having his bells rung.... :D

Thank the lord I didn't pick Uncas' dad's name to call my boat... :rolleyes:

[ 01-17-2006, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Donn]

You could have called it Gook, for short. :D

[Art Read]

"A man's man, and a friend
But it is clear that in Cuba, Hemingway means far more than just a way to make a dollar.


'Capitan' Gregorio Fuentes shares memories of Hemingway
The old timers will tell you he was a great man, a wonderful man. He was certainly larger than life. He was, as they say, a man's man. And in Latin culture, that's important.

Why he has become one of the most singularly recognizable figures here is difficult to say. Perhaps he represents a time and spirit that no longer exists here except in the vintage American cars of the 1940s and 1950s that still fill the streets of Havana.

"I will always miss him," says Gregorio Fuentes. Gregorio knew Hemingway perhaps better than anyone here. He was Hemingway's boat captain. The main character in "The Old Man and the Sea" is said to be based at least in part on Gregorio Fuentes.

Gregorio just turned 102 years old. When I interviewed him last month, Gregorio wore an old fishing hat, the word "Capitan" stitched across the front. He met Hemingway in 1928. The two men fished together, went on safari together in Africa and, during World War II, patrolled the Cuban coast in Hemingway's boat for German submarines.


Hemingway's boat Pilar
The last time Gregorio saw Hemingway, he says, Hemingway told him, "Listen to me. Take care of yourself as you've done, as well as take care of my Pilar as you've been doing."

The Pilar was Hemingway's boat. In the writer's will, he left it to Gregorio. After Hemingway's death, Gregorio says people always called offering large sums of money to fish with him on the Pilar. Gregorio says he always refused.

Gregorio lights a cigar and puffs as he recounts what happened next to the boat. He went to see Fidel Castro, he says. Hemingway and Castro met once at a fishing tournament. There are pictures of that at the marina.

Gregorio says he asked Castro to help him preserve the boat. "'Where would you like to take it?' he asked me. And I replied to him, 'To his home.' And so we did it."

The boat now sits at Finca Vigia, the writer's home in Cuba turned museum.


Hemingway's home in Cuba is now a museum
Gregorio and I met for our interview at the La Terraza restaurant, just up the street from Gregorio's home in the seaside town of Cojimar.

From here Gregorio and Hemingway often set out to sea. On a street that runs along the water across from an old Spanish fortress there is a monument.

Sitting in the middle of a circular base surrounded by stone columns is a statue of Ernest Hemingway gazing out across the ocean he loved so much.

It was built by the people of Cojimar to honor the man they called Papa. A man they knew as a friend."

[Mrleft8]

Originally posted by Donn:
You could have called it Gook, for short. :D Or "Gin" :D

[Donn]

Not Gin, Chin.

[Mrleft8]

Uncas' father was oriental?

[Donn]

<img src= "http://www.solomonia.com/images/march04/ching.jpg">

Chingachgook AKA Russell Means, Lakota Libertarian/Republican.

[uncas]

Well...he was the last of his breed....
And his name would not have fit on the transom...

[Garrett Lowell]

"OKAY...what if Kerry had become president. "

All of the planets would have aligned.
He would have put an end to all war, drought, famine, earthquakes, tsunamis, forest fires, hurricanes, poverty, global warming, air and water pollution, obesity, and Celine Deion's career.
Windsurfing would have become the new national pastime.
Health care would have been free for everyone while healthcare costs dropped to practically zero. All participants receive a Purple Heart for hospital stays over 24 hours. Botox injections are covered.
Heinz condiments are offered at all eating establishments in the country.
Election laws are changed to allow voters to vote for someone after voting against them, and vice-versa.

[uncas]

Originally posted by Donn:
You could have called it Gook, for short.

Yup...can see it now...how many organizations....public officials....those wanting to be politically correct can fit...at the sametime on Uncas...
I would end up in jail.....
Yup...good name to call an old boat...

Heck we had to name the Oldsquaw..the duck...Sharp tail(ed) Duck to avoid the barage of criticism...

[ 01-17-2006, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Donn]

Originally posted by uncas:

I would end up in jail.....
On the "Group W Bench!"

[uncas]

Oops..gonna let that one fly by me...undisturbed....
Oh...I thought it was an oldsquaw

[Keith Wilson]

He would have put an end to . . . Celine Dion's career.
Damn, I KNEW there was a really good reason to vote for him!

[uncas]

OKAY.....we stop bombing houses with possible terrorists there...
I don't understand something...Everyone says we may be bombing innocent people...and yes, that may have happened...and everyone screams that we are the evil empire...
How do these same people justify the killings at malls...fairgrounds....rallies, rest.of their own people....Are not these people who die...innocent....What did they do to deserve death by a suicide bomber? Where is the screaming...in the Muslim world....
Seems to be there are a few kettles being black.and calling other cooking utensils black as well.....There does not appear to be any logic on the part of many Arab civilians...
It's okay for them to kill their own people but....no one else can....yup...makes sense to me...
Now back to a religious thread....

[ 01-17-2006, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Art Read]

What do you want, Jamie? Reason? Rational partisanship? People agreeing that blowing up Jews/Christians/Westerners and perhaps the odd fellow Muslims who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time is as much to be avoided as blowing up those unfortunate enough to be in close proximity to those who've declared war on the rest of the world?

Dreamer!

[ 01-17-2006, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Garrett Lowell]

On the downside, if Kerry had been elected, hair care costs would have risen dramatically, with the average haircut costing more than $1000.00. The hair care industry would boom, with top barbers and stylists earning well into 7 figures and commanding such extras as private planes and free trips aboard Air Force 1.

[uncas]

My dreams are becoming a nightmare....

and its not just blowing up Christians and Jews...It's blowing up eachother....
No one checks id's at a restuarant...

[ 01-17-2006, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Art Read]

Wasn't that actually Clinton, Garrett?

[uncas]

Art...that was before inflation....

[High C]

Originally posted by uncas:
....No one checks id's at a restuarant...What restaurant?

[Garrett Lowell]

Originally posted by Art Read:
Wasn't that actually Clinton, Garrett?No, I read once that Kerry paid about a grand for a haircut, counting the costs to fly in his stylist. Not sure about Clinton.

[Donn]

I think Clinton's cost him $240, but it was on the runway at an airport, and interfered with traffic. :D