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gypsie
02-21-2018, 07:01 PM
is this for real?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/21/donald-trump-solution-to-school-shootings-arm-teachers-with-guns

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-arming-teachers-florida-shooting-gun-control-school-ban-a8222311.html


Donald Trump says he is considering arming teachers after shooting tragedy

CWSmith
02-21-2018, 07:03 PM
The teachers I know hate the idea.

Peerie Maa
02-21-2018, 07:05 PM
If that is for real the man is a moron.

McMike
02-21-2018, 07:06 PM
Stupidest idea ever. Who's gonna pay the insurance policy on that one.

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2018, 07:07 PM
The teachers I know hate the idea.I was one! Teachers have enough to do than taking gun safety classes, keep a gun in the top drawer that would be accessible to anyone. Don't put this kind of unnecessary pressure on teachers who only want to teach.

mmd
02-21-2018, 07:11 PM
http://www.cartoonistgroup.com/properties/peters/art_images/cg50f40dbd76434.jpg

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/-dianne_feinstein-house_of_representatives-gun_controls-assault_weapons-nra-knin686_low.jpg

http://www.cartoonaday.com/images/cartoons/2013/04/teachers-with-guns-cartoon-598x378.jpg

http://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/aurorasentinel/asuplads/20170615162001/schoolnra.jpg

Rich Jones
02-21-2018, 07:12 PM
These attacks span minutes, not hours. In the time it takes a teacher to realize an attack is happening, to unlock the gun safe, load the gun and confront the shooter, the shooting is already over. The last person shot will be the teacher, who will be hopelessly outgunned.
My daughter is a teacher, so this hits close to home. Arming teachers is not the solution!!!

ron ll
02-21-2018, 07:14 PM
is this for real?



Interesting that just asking the question prompts people to react as tho it is real. It might be, I don’t know. But we need to be careful about perpetuating unverified stories, now more than ever.

mmd
02-21-2018, 07:18 PM
Ron, with respect, to those of us outside the USA, the mere consideration of arming teachers is just... well... crazy.

Gerarddm
02-21-2018, 07:20 PM
O he said it alright, and to students too. The insanity is just boggling.

Tell you what, how about spending the money instead on better salaries and equipment and supplies? That's what teachers REALLY need.

ron ll
02-21-2018, 07:22 PM
Ron, with respect, to those of us outside the USA, the mere consideration of arming teachers is just... well... crazy.

Of course it is, to us too. I’m just pointing out that it might be another false story to polarize us. Did Trump really say this since the Florida shooting? The OP poses the question, “ Is this real?” And then everyone reacts as if it is. It’s a question, not a statement.

ron ll
02-21-2018, 07:25 PM
If he really said this in response to Florida, then he is an even bigger monster than I already thought.

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2018, 07:26 PM
Ron, with respect, to those of us outside the USA, the mere consideration of arming teachers is just... well... crazy.I'm so glad I taught in the UK!

Chris Smith porter maine
02-21-2018, 07:28 PM
This is brilliant a 15 year old boy brings a box cutter to school forces his teacher to open the gun safe and is now in possession of a firearm, brilliant.

CWSmith
02-21-2018, 07:30 PM
O he said it alright, and to students too. The insanity is just boggling.


I believe he said it today to the parents of dead students.

Garret
02-21-2018, 07:31 PM
It's straight NRA party line.

Just because the NRA went around the bend years ago doesn't mean we shouldn't hang on every word they say.

My poor country. I used to be proud of it.

ETA:


Knowledge of this would act as a deterrent to a would-be attacker, Trump claimed. “You know, a lot of people don’t understand that airline pilots now, a lot of them carry guns, and I have to say that things have changed a lot. People aren’t attacking the way they would routinely attack and maybe you would have the same situation in schools.”

Oh yeah - that's been the big difference. Armoring & locking the cockpit has had nothing to do with it.

Meanwhile his hangers-on will lap up the BS.

LeeG
02-21-2018, 07:38 PM
teachers are too slow, arm all the kids in grades 9-12. They could be trained like Ish suggests.

ron ll
02-21-2018, 07:55 PM
Trump also said he’s in favor of raising the gun buying age limit. Then the NRA comes right out today and says no to that. So this will be a real test of who has the hammer.

Steve McMahon
02-21-2018, 08:01 PM
Indeed:

"Trump solicited suggestions from the group. He promised to be "very strong on background checks," adding that "we're going to do plenty of other things." He also indicated interest in the idea of concealed weapons for trained teachers, saying it was something his administration would be "looking at it very strongly."

A strong supporter of gun rights, Trump has nonetheless indicated in recent days that he is willing to consider ideas not in keeping with National Rifle Association orthodoxy, including age restrictions for buying assault-type weapons. Still, gun owners are a key part of his base of supporters."

Source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-guns-florida-school-shooting-listening-session-1.4544717

Sadly, the NRA is probably going to win this round too. Yup, arm the teachers and raise the age to buy an assault rifle. That should solve the issue. :rolleyes: It will certainly sell more guns and increase range usage. I bet right now there are people getting ready to sell the schools customized weapons training packages.

Garret
02-21-2018, 08:05 PM
There's been a big uptick in gun sales since this last shooting - even without arming teachers.

Jim Bow
02-21-2018, 08:06 PM
Trump only became "a strong supporter of gun rights" when he decided to campaign.
Prior to that? Nada.

delecta
02-21-2018, 08:09 PM
Schools need to take down the sign, "Gun free zone". How to do that I'm not sure but I'm sure that those that choose schools choose it for that very reason.

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2018, 08:13 PM
Schools need to take down the sign, "Gun free zone". How to do that I'm not sure but I'm sure that those that choose schools choose it for that very reason.That's a good idea, make it a gun Zone! Kids and faculty will love it!

delecta
02-21-2018, 08:16 PM
That's a good idea, make it a gun Zone! Kids and faculty will love it!

Hey Jamie how are you? Bees buzzing yet?

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2018, 08:19 PM
Hey Jamie how are you? Bees buzzing yet?One hive died, two-three weeks well below 0. The last one going nuts. Went out yesterday morning and fed them. 5 wks to go give or take. This is the time many of the bees die, no flowers. If doing well, will split the hive and make two. The one without a queen will produce one! Thanks for asking.

Chip-skiff
02-21-2018, 08:24 PM
http://rackjite.com/wp-content/uploads/gunteachers.jpg

delecta
02-21-2018, 08:25 PM
F is for failure as parents.

Dave Gray
02-21-2018, 08:37 PM
New requirement: teachers will now be required to buy AR-15s and show proficiency in its use. The OK Corral soon to be eclipsed in US folklore.

S.V. Airlie
02-21-2018, 08:43 PM
F is for failure as parents.There's that! The question is what causes the failure, working 3 jobs at minimum wage to support them maybe? Not being home? Thats what they called latch key kids in the 80's. It hasn't gotten any better now either.

gypsie
02-21-2018, 09:19 PM
^ financial stress. It is very hard to function properly when you are constantly worried about paying bills, how will i feed the kids, rent and so on.

gypsie
02-21-2018, 09:22 PM
F is for failure.

Well done delecta, Failure does begin with the letter F.

I agree;
If Trump gets his way and teachers are armed - that will be a failure. Not just of parents but of everyone who voted for him.
It will also be a failure of the government for not being able to protect its people.

F's all round delecta - great point made subtly.

RFNK
02-21-2018, 09:25 PM
If he really said this in response to Florida, then he is an even bigger monster than I already thought.

The only way Trump could become a bigger moron would be by putting on more weight.

In a career of 40 years in education, and my own education of ... umm ... 20 years, this is by far the most cynical and ridiculous 'idea' I've heard.

And I'm glad some of my teachers never had access to a gun!

Rick

skuthorp
02-21-2018, 09:38 PM
Lots of obsfurcation here, all dodging the obvious, the .https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSXry1CkXzwZWD0KUoN77UFZqmMEfS1W a77jEElWGPMSwIXJRmc in the room

isla
02-22-2018, 05:01 AM
If he really said this in response to Florida, then he is an even bigger monster than I already thought.

Ron, it's all over the news and it ain't fake..

US President Donald Trump has said arming teachers could prevent school shootings like that which left 17 people dead last week in Florida.

A staff member with a gun could end an attack "very quickly", he said.
Mr Trump floated the proposal as emotional survivors of the 14 February massacre implored him to make sure something similar does not occur again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43149694

Besides, can anybody imagine these ladies being armed and prepared to shoot somebody (they are Quakers)

https://www.quakerschool.org/uploaded/photos/Academics/Acad-Eliza_class.jpg

WX
02-22-2018, 05:17 AM
Can you imagine an armed stressed out teacher in a room full of post pubescent kids?

Tom Montgomery
02-22-2018, 09:25 AM
Imagine living in a nation where there are more armed school teachers in classrooms than there are armed law enforcement officers.

This is just an extension of "the good guy with a gun" solution. More guns are the answer say the radical right. Screw what the majority of the American public thinks.

SKIP KILPATRICK
02-22-2018, 09:36 AM
Suddenly school locker room has a new meaning.

https://image.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/6/690351_ts.jpg

Garret
02-22-2018, 09:37 AM
Imagine living in a nation where there are more armed school teachers in classrooms than there are armed law enforcement officers.

This is just an extension of "the good guy with a gun" solution. More guns are the answer say the radical right. Screw what the majority of the American public thinks.

Or what makes any sort of sense in a sane world. I'm trying to picture Miss Mullen, my 4th grade teacher, with a gun. Just not happening... Now my 7th grade math teacher Mr. Shattuck I can see - but not sure how many students would've made it to the end of the school year. Getting a chalkboard eraser thrown at your head is slightly less permanent that a bullet.

LeeG
02-22-2018, 09:38 AM
If that is for real the man is a moron.

Remember during the campaign when he admitted that a woman would have to suffer criminal penalties if abortion was made illegal? He has no moral compass, he knows more guns will please the rabid base more than fewer guns so armed teachers sounds like a good idea.

Tom Montgomery
02-22-2018, 09:41 AM
Skip's photo reminds me that the U.S. military maintains strict control over its firearms. You won't see every serviceman walking around armed on base or aboard ship.

isla
02-22-2018, 09:47 AM
Teachers, in my experience, are usually pleasant well-adjusted individuals, but at the end of the day they are just people, with human emotions. They have human experiences like everybody else. They may have a failing marriage, financial difficulties, be alcoholic, have teenage kids with drug problems, or have a drug problem themselves. They may have experienced childhood abuse. In short, there is absolutely no reason to trust a teacher with a gun than you would any other member of society. So if this lunatic idea were to actually happen, what happens when the first mentally ill teacher shoots the kids in his/her care? What wonderful new solution will they come up with next?

A teacher cleared of attempted murder after hitting a pupil with a dumbbell was today given a two-year community service order.
Peter Harvey snapped and attacked the 14-year-old boy after being goaded by other students, one of whom covertly filmed the incident.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/may/24/teacher-dumbbell-peter-harvey-community-order

A Baltimore teacher is under fire after a cellphone video emerged of her fighting a 17-year-old student, slamming the girl against a locker and threatening to kill her.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2797397/baltimore-teacher-attacks-student-slamming-locker-yelling-ll-kill-senior-hurled-book-her.html

cglynn
02-22-2018, 09:57 AM
Has anyone realized that the same man who did everything in his (or his daddy's) power to avoid serving his country in combat is now advocating that teachers (of all people) carry guns to kill their students?

Like is that the best we can do? The country that put people on the moon can only come up with "arm the teachers" as a solution to shootings?

I am ashamed. I ashamed for that fact that the people saying "arm the teachers" are woefully turning a blind eye to real solutions that don't involve killing people. I am ashamed that the people of this nation feel that somebody who suggests arming teachers is worthy of serving for government. I am ashamed for the fact that when you look at all of these proposed policies, they look more at home in Somalia than the USA. I am ashamed because the people of this nation are not only okay with that, but support it.

SKIP KILPATRICK
02-22-2018, 10:03 AM
I'm sure teachers with bone spurs would be excused from duty!

Old Dryfoot
02-22-2018, 10:03 AM
The 2nd amendment. Twenty seven little words that fooked a country. . .

LeeG
02-22-2018, 10:06 AM
Teachers, in my experience, are usually pleasant well-adjusted individuals, but at the end of the day they are just people, with human emotions. They have human experiences like everybody else. They may have a failing marriage, financial difficulties, be alcoholic, have teenage kids with drug problems, or have a drug problem themselves. They may have experienced childhood abuse. In short, there is absolutely no reason to trust a teacher with a gun than you would any other member of society. So if this lunatic idea were to actually happen, what happens when the first mentally ill teacher shoots the kids in his/her care? What wonderful new solution will they come up with next?

A teacher cleared of attempted murder after hitting a pupil with a dumbbell was today given a two-year community service order.
Peter Harvey snapped and attacked the 14-year-old boy after being goaded by other students, one of whom covertly filmed the incident.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/may/24/teacher-dumbbell-peter-harvey-community-order

A Baltimore teacher is under fire after a cellphone video emerged of her fighting a 17-year-old student, slamming the girl against a locker and threatening to kill her.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2797397/baltimore-teacher-attacks-student-slamming-locker-yelling-ll-kill-senior-hurled-book-her.html

for a student the teacher then becomes an extension of the police, “will the teacher shoot me if I do something wrong?”

Trump says sh!t without thinking.

John of Phoenix
02-22-2018, 11:16 AM
God have mercy on any teacher who thinks they could kill a child.

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 11:52 AM
Any person who goes armed to a school knowing teachers might be armed, will just shoot the teachers first!

cglynn
02-22-2018, 11:57 AM
God have mercy on any teacher who thinks they could kill a child.

And God d@mn anyone who thinks a teacher SHOULD have to kill children. Or how about society d@mn that person, because we've seen how far "thoughts and prayers" have gotten us.

downthecreek
02-22-2018, 11:59 AM
This thing gets more and more grotesque every day.

paulf
02-22-2018, 12:08 PM
This thing gets more and more grotesque every day.

I hope it becomes the undoing of the alt right in the US.

LeeG
02-22-2018, 12:10 PM
This thing gets more and more grotesque every day.

I was about to say insane but grotesque describes it better. Trump is playing with talking points totally disconnected from reality. Imagine him explaining to Melania that sending Baron to a school where the teachers are “fully weapons trained” makes it safe.


from five years ago

https://www.nhregister.com/connecticut/article/CONNIE-SCHULTZ-In-open-casket-boy-s-body-shows-11399159.php

Sailor
02-22-2018, 01:16 PM
Our weapons are locked up pretty tight. Even if the locker isn't opened there is a muster conducted EVERY DAY on the contents of the locker. Small arms locker has things like handcuffs and pepper spray in it. Each item is counted and accounted for every day whether it's used or not. A whole week could go by when the only time the SA locker is opened is for the daily muster. Nobody wanders around our ships with weapons. Even the boarding party or for emergency arming of the brow in the case of an attack, the weapons have to be brought up from the SA locker, issued, and they're not loaded until outside on the upper decks. It does take a bit of time but that's how it is. We RARELY have any shootings. I can't think the last time we did. The RN had a submariner shoot someone but they have armed sentries on board (or did at the time). We don't.
The crux of it is, we don't have armed folks walking around so we don't have shootings. Pretty simple and straight forward if you ask me.

Peerie Maa
02-22-2018, 01:26 PM
Our weapons are locked up pretty tight. Even if the locker isn't opened there is a muster conducted EVERY DAY on the contents of the locker. Small arms locker has things like handcuffs and pepper spray in it. Each item is counted and accounted for every day whether it's used or not. A whole week could go by when the only time the SA locker is opened is for the daily muster. Nobody wanders around our ships with weapons. Even the boarding party or for emergency arming of the brow in the case of an attack, the weapons have to be brought up from the SA locker, issued, and they're not loaded until outside on the upper decks. It does take a bit of time but that's how it is. We RARELY have any shootings. I can't think the last time we did. The RN had a submariner shoot someone but they have armed sentries on board (or did at the time). We don't.
The crux of it is, we don't have armed folks walking around so we don't have shootings. Pretty simple and straight forward if you ask me.

HMS Astute was alongside in a commercial port. It would be normal to mount a guard under those circumstances. The rating volunteered for guard duty and was than issued with a weapon.
You are saying that the brow has to be under attack before any weapons are issued? Remarkable state of unreadiness.

Osborne Russell
02-22-2018, 01:52 PM
I'm for arming teachers. They're overpaid already so it's only right they should do more to earn it.

AlanMc
02-22-2018, 01:57 PM
The teachers I know hate the idea.



everyone you know hates it bc you are surrounded only by people that agree with you.

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 02:00 PM
everyone you know hates it bc you are surrounded only by people that agree with you.No, it's because teachers really DO hate the idea Alan!

SKIP KILPATRICK
02-22-2018, 02:01 PM
Are teachers going to be paid combat pay?

Are unarmed teachers labeled noncombatants and do they have to drive white trucks and wear blue helmets?

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 02:04 PM
If a killer with a gun goes into a school knowing teachers may be armed, it's the teachers he shoots first Alan. After dispatching them, he'll turn his gun on the others!

LeeG
02-22-2018, 02:05 PM
Are teachers going to be paid combat pay?

Are unarmed teachers labeled noncombatants and do they have to drive white trucks and wear blue helmets?

Probably should train some of the kids to be medics

mdh
02-22-2018, 02:05 PM
Luckily, it’s a matter left up to individual school districts, because a few of the ones who actually do care to protect their children have already incorporated concealed carry faculty and staff. If you go to a high school football or basketball game around here, you’re certainly going to see police there. Why is it so much more traumatic at school?

LeeG
02-22-2018, 02:06 PM
If a killer with a gun goes into a school knowing teachers may be armed, it's the teachers he shoots first Alan. After dispatching them, he'll turn his gun on the others!

and a troll doesn’t care what you say.

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 02:06 PM
Dang, that smell again! GAG!

AlanMc
02-22-2018, 02:07 PM
No, it's because teachers really DO hate the idea Alan!


depends on what teachers you ask sv. you see, the ones i know LIKE IT.

AlanMc
02-22-2018, 02:08 PM
If a killer with a gun goes into a school knowing teachers may be armed, it's the teachers he shoots first Alan. After dispatching them, he'll turn his gun on the others!



sure old man. that's how things work. ;)

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 02:09 PM
depends on what teachers you ask sv. you see, the ones i know LIKE IT.I have not heard any teacher who is for it Alan, none! NADA, NYET. I was a teacher. I worked with teachers, I know many teachers, NOT ONE!

SKIP KILPATRICK
02-22-2018, 02:10 PM
I think the schools should have a few of these. Maybe on the roof tops.

https://taskandpurpose.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/DP-14-2-840x420.jpg

This Drone Helicopter Could Revolutionize The Medevac Forever

AlanMc
02-22-2018, 02:11 PM
I have not heard any teacher who is for it Alan, none! NADA, NYET. I was a teacher. I worked with teachers, I know many teachers, NOT ONE!



you don't live where i live sv. you mat find this hard to believe... but there's about 160 million people in the us that don't share the same opinions as you and the people around you.

SKIP KILPATRICK
02-22-2018, 02:14 PM
New charter school come soon to a neighborhood near you!

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/22aa8bc9bfd5967d2b8591dae70e46d74a498422/c=454-0-1723-952&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2017/08/12/DetroitNews/B99564162Z.1_20170812155006_000_GFN1JPCQR.2-0.jpg

bamamick
02-22-2018, 02:14 PM
Thank goodness he is a very, VERY stable genius.

Mickey Lake

Reynard38
02-22-2018, 02:14 PM
“Knowledge of this would act as a deterrent to a would-be attacker, Trump claimed. “You know, a lot of people don’t understand that airline pilots now, a lot of them carry guns, and I have to say that things have changed a lot. People aren’t attacking the way they would routinely attack and maybe you would have the same situation in schools.”

Once again trump gets it wrong. For security reasons I can’t explain why, but as usual he is completely full of crap.

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 02:16 PM
you don't live where i live sv. you mat find this hard to believe... but there's about 160 million people in the us that don't share the same opinions as you and the people around you.Firstly, I'm glad I don't, my life expectancy would be zero. Secondly, every teacher's association in existence are against arming teachers. You're state is obviously screwed up. They wanted to elect Moore as a Senator says it all.

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 02:17 PM
you don't live where i live sv. you mat find this hard to believe... but there's about 160 million people in the us that don't share the same opinions as you and the people around you.And of course you have proof of that Alan!

Too Little Time
02-22-2018, 02:25 PM
is this for real?
There are more expensive solutions

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/2018/02/21/safest-school-america-indiana/357379002/

Cameras with a direct feed to the county sheriff office. Teachers who wear panic buttons. Smoke cannons in hallways.

It is embarrassing that there is a need to be concerned.

Boater14
02-22-2018, 02:30 PM
Here in New Jersey the much despised ex governor, Christi, blamed the states fiscal troubles on teachers with their pensions and benefits. At a town hall meeting he told a female teacher to sit down and shut up. He was trumps toad. That was in his first term. We liked his in your face attitude so much we re elected the bum. So now the teacher is supposed to get in a shootout with some nut with an assault rifle defending our kids?

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 02:33 PM
There are more expensive solutions

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/2018/02/21/safest-school-america-indiana/357379002/


It is embarrassing that there is a need to be concerned.Blame the NRA for these concerns. The NRA preaches that the left wants to take ALL their guns away. LAPEW said that today! Amazing they have to push the fear button every chance they can get. As far as I have seen, no one has threatened to take ALL guns away from any of those that need a gun to be a necessary pacifier!

Too Little Time
02-22-2018, 02:34 PM
US President Donald Trump has said arming teachers could prevent school shootings like that which left 17 people dead last week in Florida.

A staff member with a gun could end an attack "very quickly", he said.
Mr Trump floated the proposal as emotional survivors of the 14 February massacre implored him to make sure something similar does not occur again.
It might be worthy to note that a number of schools have full time armed police on campus. I don't see a teacher being much more of a deterrent.

SKIP KILPATRICK
02-22-2018, 02:36 PM
How about one of these in each school?

https://d1o50x50snmhul.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/07122531/gettyimages-473356902-800x533.jpg

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 02:36 PM
Isla, he's now denying he said this! Sound familiar?

Boater14
02-22-2018, 02:43 PM
He was joking. He does that.

Tom Montgomery
02-22-2018, 02:51 PM
Are the teachers going to either conceal carry [Trump's stated preference] or open carry? I can imagine situations where several students jump a teacher and take his weapon. And then use it against the teacher and/or other students. I can also imagine a teacher snapping - for whatever reason - and using the weapon against others in the school.

Are the guns going to instead be locked inside cabinets? How effective could they then be used when an active shooter begins mowing people down?

What a stunningly stupid idea.

John of Phoenix
02-22-2018, 02:53 PM
Arm teachers to stop an attack? The old "Good Guy with a Gun" thing, eh?

Every cop shot to death in the US was a "Good Guy with a Gun". That's 46 dead officers and seven K9s. I can't find info on wounded.

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 02:55 PM
Are the teachers going to either conceal carry or open carry? I can imagine situations where several students jump a teacher and take his weapon. And then use it against the teacher and/or other students. I can also imagine a teacher snapping - for whatever reason - and using the weapon against others in the school.

Are the guns going to instead be locked inside cabinets? How effective could they then be used when an active shooter begins mowing people down?

What a stunningly stupid idea.If the killer know the teachers are armed the teachers would be killed first without having a clue as to what was happening. Heck, even those hearing a shot didn't know what it was at first.

Tom Montgomery
02-22-2018, 03:01 PM
I think this is a pivotal moment in American politics. The young people - students - are enraged and motivated to speak out.

Either the Republicans wise up and begin cooperating with the Democrats to craft an honest and effective solution to this problem or the party circles the drain in the near future.

Young people - a demographic that has historically had low voter turnout - are paying attention and are increasingly motivated to vote when they become eligible to do so. They will be keeping score on this issue. The GOP ignores them and dithers on this issue to its peril.

Much like the Vietnam War, young people feel they have a personal stake in the outcome of this issue.
,

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 03:08 PM
Is Trump including any non gun people (democrats, elected officials) in his discussions or just members of the NRA , a handful of kids, DeVos and a few law enforcement agencies? Heck, maybe some teachers would be nice other than the idiot DeVos that knows nothing about education.

mdh
02-22-2018, 03:11 PM
As was said Sunday, none of the actions the dimocrats and the kids are pushing will accomplish their goal of “Never Again” if the next school shooter already has his weapon, ammo, and some semblance of a plan; just waiting for the desperation or mental condition to climax. From history we know his target will most likely be a “gun free zone”.

Tom Wilkinson
02-22-2018, 03:13 PM
https://www.militarytimes.com/veterans/2016/07/07/new-va-study-finds-20-veterans-commit-suicide-each-day/

Some studies show 20 vets a day commit suicide, yet we have people saying it's veterans who should be guarding our kids in schools. Anyone else have an issue with that?

Boater14
02-22-2018, 03:16 PM
Wants to arm 20% of teachers. Says they’ll be teachers with specialized training or military experience. What percentage of teachers in the country have been in the Army or Marine Corps. .000001 perhaps?

Tom Montgomery
02-22-2018, 03:19 PM
How did Australia solve their problem after the Port Arthur massacre?

Maybe the U.S.A. federal government should follow many private business' policy of adopting "best practice." In other words, take a look at the rest of the developed world and adopt the policies, legislation and its implementation of nations that have effectively addressed the same issues.

Naaah... We are exceptional and do not need to stoop to copying other countries. We're Number One! We're Number One! :pmad:

Tom Montgomery
02-22-2018, 03:21 PM
FACT: Most bullets fired by trained police officers miss their targets most of the time.

What a stunningly stupid idea.

Tom Montgomery
02-22-2018, 03:24 PM
76% of American school teachers are female.

Just saying....

What a stunningly stupid idea.

RFNK
02-22-2018, 03:33 PM
The Caine Mutiny writ large.

Rick

Tom Montgomery
02-22-2018, 03:46 PM
Donald J. Trump
✔@realDonaldTrump (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump)

....immediately fire back if a savage sicko came to a school with bad intentions. Highly trained teachers would also serve as a deterrent to the cowards that do this. Far more assets at much less cost than guards. A “gun free” school is a magnet for bad people. ATTACKS WOULD END!
7:40 AM - Feb 22, 2018 (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/966653833047887874)Cowardice has ZERO to do with this phenomenon. Has this dotard never heard of "suicide by cop?" Does he really think the perps are concerned about their own survival? They are merely interested in taking down as many people as possible before they can be stopped.

What a stunningly stupid idea.

Osborne Russell
02-22-2018, 03:47 PM
depends on what teachers you ask sv. you see, the ones i know LIKE IT.

I call BS. I want to see them advocate it in writing. Only right given that they are the custodians of children.

Tom Montgomery
02-22-2018, 03:49 PM
I wish people would refrain from quoting trolls.

Having said that, I don't believe a word of whatever that troll posts with regard to his personal experience.

Just saying.

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 03:52 PM
I wish people would refrain from quoting trolls.

Having said that, I don't believe a word of whatever that troll posts with regard to his personal experience.

Just saying.It would help. Most don't have anything of value to say anyway.

SKIP KILPATRICK
02-22-2018, 03:52 PM
"I don't want teachers to have guns. I want certain highly adept people -- people that understand weaponry, guns. If they really have that aptitude -- because not everybody has aptitude for gun -- but if they have the aptitude, I think a concealed permit for having teachers and letting people know that there are people in the building with guns, you won't have -- in my opinion -- you won't have these shootings," the President said.

"We have to harden those schools, not soften them. A gun-free zone, to a killer, or somebody that wants to be a killer, that's like going in for the ice cream. That's like saying, 'Here I am, take me,' " Trump said at the White House.

"They see that as such a beautiful target," Trump said. "They live for gun-free zones."

SKIP KILPATRICK
02-22-2018, 03:54 PM
"Active shooter drills is a very negative thing, I'll be honest with you," he said at the White House. "I think that's a very negative thing to be talking about. I don't like it. I don't want to tell my son 'you're going to have to participate in an active shooter drill. I'd much rather have a hardened school."

"I think it's crazy. I think it's very bad for children."

Reynard38
02-22-2018, 03:59 PM
76% of American school teachers are female.

Just saying....

What a stunningly stupid idea.

I’m a bit surprised at this comment. Comes across as more than a bit sexist.
A woman can pull a trigger just as easily as a man. They can also be very good shots.

http://www.businessinsider.com/lyudmila-pavlichenko-female-sniper


But I do agree that arming teachers, male or female, is a terrible idea. And to add to a point made earlier I would most certainly NOT want armed former military in the schools. We are just beginning to see the results of a decade and a half of a pointless and goalless war with suicides and PTSD.

Garret
02-22-2018, 04:24 PM
depends on what teachers you ask sv. you see, the ones i know LIKE IT.

OK - one assumes a person becomes a teacher because they like kids & think it's important for them to get a good education. Yes, I know there are exceptions - but doesn't this describe good teachers?

Now - teacher pulls gun to shoot assailant, tries to shoot him - wings him & the bullet continues on into one of his students. Forgetting about legal liability - isn't the above-described person going to be devastated?

How on earth is a person that does not undergo heavy duty, regular training going to be able to deal with a situation like this when even cops who do nothing but try to stop bad guys can't get it right? Please remember that a teached as a (more than) full time job during the school year - so they can't spend a day or 2 a week on firearm training.

Please explain how these teachers who are in favor think this'll work!

Tom Montgomery
02-22-2018, 04:25 PM
I’m a bit surprised at this comment. Comes across as more than a bit sexist.
Just a little.

What I meant to imply is that I seriously doubt the vast majority of American school teachers would go along with this stunningly stupid idea. I should have simply stated that outright.

Do I think that those in possession of the most testosterone might... might... be more likely to go along with this stunningly stupid idea? Yeah. But I hope I am wrong.
.

AlanMc
02-22-2018, 04:58 PM
I’m a bit surprised at this comment. Comes across as more than a bit sexist.
A woman can pull a trigger just as easily as a man. They can also be very good shots.

http://www.businessinsider.com/lyudmila-pavlichenko-female-sniper


But I do agree that arming teachers, male or female, is a terrible idea. And to add to a point made earlier I would most certainly NOT want armed former military in the schools. We are just beginning to see the results of a decade and a half of a pointless and goalless war with suicides and PTSD.



yea, you're not supposed to dump your progressive gender agenda when you switch to your gun grabbing agenda. ;)

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 05:01 PM
That smell again coming from someone I have on ignore! RIPE!

RFNK
02-22-2018, 05:07 PM
We banned corporal punishment in the 1970s in Australian schools. Even so, there are STILL some teachers here who would like to go back to belting kids with sticks. There would be some teachers who would go along with this "stunningly stupid idea' of guns for teachers too but it would be a tiny minority. I wouldn't employ a teacher who even agreed to remain in a school with guns, let alone carry one!

Really, your president ....

Rick

AlanMc
02-22-2018, 05:10 PM
if you actually have me on ignore then you won't see this.. but, WOW you're a toddler sv. "ooo, look at me, i have you on ignore... i can't hear you". geezus man, you're almost 100... you could at least pretend you're a mature 20 year old.

Peerie Maa
02-22-2018, 05:12 PM
Really, your president ....

Rick

Think of Dolt 45 as the needle on the dial of a galvanometer.
He is representative of the people who still support him.

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 05:14 PM
if you actually have me on ignore then you won't see this.. but, WOW you're a toddler sv. "ooo, look at me, i have you on ignore... i can't hear you". geezus man, you're almost 100... you could at least pretend you're a mature 20 year old.Dang, how long has this carcass been dead?Must be the heat down south!Back to ignore, peeking is dangerous for my health!

WX
02-22-2018, 05:16 PM
How did Australia solve their problem after the Port Arthur massacre?

Maybe the U.S.A. federal government should follow many private business' policy of adopting "best practice." In other words, take a look at the rest of the developed world and adopt the policies, legislation and its implementation of nations that have effectively addressed the same issues.

Naaah... We are exceptional and do not need to stoop to copying other countries. We're Number One! We're Number One! :pmad:
After Port Arthur automatic and semi automatic weapons were banned, the government implemented a buy back scheme and 600,000 guns were handed in.

RFNK
02-22-2018, 05:21 PM
Think of Dolt 45 as the needle on the dial of a galvanometer.
He is representative of the people who still support him.

Our PM is meeting him this week. He's a very weak character so I hope he doesn't learn anything!

Rick

Tom Montgomery
02-22-2018, 05:24 PM
21st century America's priorities are fubar. I am not holding my breath that they will be straightened out in my lifetime.

I am seriously considering my options upon retirement. My paternal grandfather was born in 1888 and raised in Belfast, Ireland. He emigrated to Canada and then the U.S.A. 1907-1908. Is there any chance I could get Irish citizenship? Yes, this is a serious question. Anybody?

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 05:25 PM
Our PM is meeting him this week. He's a very weak character so I hope he doesn't learn anything!

RickIs he coming here or is Trump going there? A few days without Trump here would be a plus and looked forward to in anticipation of his leaving.

birlinn
02-22-2018, 05:46 PM
21st century America's priorities are fubar. I am not holding my breath that they will be straightened out in my lifetime.

I am seriously considering my options upon retirement. My paternal grandfather was born in 1888 and raised in Belfast, Ireland. He emigrated to Canada and then the U.S.A. 1907-1908. Is there any chance I could get Irish citizenship? Yes, this is a serious question. Anybody?

I think it is possible with an Irish grandfather.

JimD
02-22-2018, 06:37 PM
https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28056728_10160110093900486_1100167361979745387_n.j pg?oh=7b1e026ecdbc887cf2fa443a5f2691ef&oe=5B0DD4A4

S.V. Airlie
02-22-2018, 06:40 PM
Physics teachers would have been more logical.

birlinn
02-22-2018, 06:54 PM
Or RI teachers for the thoughts and prayers.

Peerie Maa
02-22-2018, 06:56 PM
Or RI teachers for the thoughts and prayers.

They wont understand that in the States, no RI in school, separation of religion from the state.

Osborne Russell
02-22-2018, 10:16 PM
I wish people would refrain from quoting trolls.

Having said that, I don't believe a word of whatever that troll posts with regard to his personal experience.

Just saying.

I know. Sorry.


Eyes bugged out. Heads vigorously shook no.

“They said, ‘You mean arming teachers? Teachers like you? Why would a teacher ever have a gun in school?’” Mr. Shutt recalled. “It just didn’t fit into their worldview. And there were concerns about what that would do to the relationship between teacher and student.”

Mr. Shutt said he was deeply opposed to Mr. Trump’s proposal — in particular the idea that federal funds should be used to train teachers in how to use a gun, when educators, Mr. Shutt said, had so many other needs.

Even in gun-friendly locales like rural Indiana, teachers reacted with alarm to Mr. Trump’s plan, which came a little more than a week after a gunman killed 17 at a high school in Florida.

In Shelbyville, Ind., where deer and turkey hunting are popular, Teresa Meredith, a kindergarten teacher, said she was stunned by the notion that weapons would have a sanctioned place in an American classroom.

Mr. Trump’s comments, she said, seemed to be taking for granted that mass shootings would continue.

“It felt like he was giving up and saying, ‘This is the new normal,’ instead of saying, ‘How can we prevent this from happening in the first place?’” Ms. Meredith said. “As a teacher, I’m supposed to teach and love and educate and nurture.”

Annaka Larson, 34, a first-grade teacher at Paul and Sheila Wellstone Elementary in St. Paul, Minn., said that on Wednesday, after Trump seemed to float the idea of arming teachers, the subject dominated a meeting that was supposed to be spent planning lessons.

Not a single teacher in the room supported the idea, she said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/22/us/arming-teachers-trump.html?&moduleDetail=section-news-0&action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article

gypsie
02-22-2018, 11:00 PM
21st century America's priorities are fubar. I am not holding my breath that they will be straightened out in my lifetime.

I am seriously considering my options upon retirement. My paternal grandfather was born in 1888 and raised in Belfast, Ireland. He emigrated to Canada and then the U.S.A. 1907-1908. Is there any chance I could get Irish citizenship? Yes, this is a serious question. Anybody?

Failte Romhat mo chara!

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

RFNK
02-22-2018, 11:16 PM
Is he coming here or is Trump going there? A few days without Trump here would be a plus and looked forward to in anticipation of his leaving.

Happily for us but sadly for you, the meeting's at your place.

You mean to say the visit of our PM isn't headline news there? I'm shocked!

Rick

Garret
02-22-2018, 11:25 PM
Happily for us but sadly for you, the meeting's at your place.

You mean to say the visit of our PM isn't headline news there? I'm shocked!

Rick

Some of us knew :)

It was most kind of Trump to offer an audience...

gypsie
02-23-2018, 12:48 AM
Anyone see the handshake?

downthecreek
02-23-2018, 02:57 AM
I think it is possible with an Irish grandfather.

Does that count even if the grandparent was a British citizen (as I presume he was)? I know current NI folks can get Irish passports, but I'm not at all sure of the historical situation.

Be that as it may - Tom, if it's possible, go for it! Ireland is a lovely place to be. Very special. I think it would suit you well. Y>

Since the folly of Brexit, I am half hoping Scotland leaves the UK and stays in the EU. I would certainly be eligible for citizenship. I wouldn't want to move - I love the place where I live and have wonderful friends here. But I would also love to retain by EU citizenship.

WX
02-23-2018, 03:38 AM
Watch the clip on AR15 modification and tell me it's not an automatic weapon.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-23/nra-chief-slams-anti-gun-elites-after-florida-school-massacre/9476300

downthecreek
02-23-2018, 04:14 AM
Seems there was an armed guard at the school in Florida, but he didn't attempt to confront the shooter - never entered the building.

One thing that gives some hope - the courageous and articulate students. What a contrast with the angry, vicious gun nuts ranting their rubbish.

Rob Blackburn
02-23-2018, 05:20 AM
Aussie viewpoint today..

http://www.betootaadvocate.com/uncategorized/trump-to-provide-teachers-with-diabetes-to-prevent-diabetes-related-deaths-at-schools/

skuthorp
02-23-2018, 05:25 AM
Some of us knew :)

It was most kind of Trump to offer an audience...
I think he's just there getting his orders………… Our PM's have been brown nosing US presidents since Ike's successor.

RFNK
02-23-2018, 06:51 AM
He's gonna learn how to make Australia grate even more!

Rick

StevenBauer
02-23-2018, 01:06 PM
https://i.redd.it/4bakpscc40i01.png

Norman Bernstein
02-23-2018, 01:11 PM
https://scontent.fbos1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28059419_1624836700929868_6842253599752008508_n.jp g?oh=73e8b4b5f21d6295f939060c4dec0ada&oe=5B0D85DF

LeeG
02-23-2018, 02:12 PM
Trump is an idiot to think a teacher should be trained and ready to kill people. Absolute idiot.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43174069

But Randi Weingarten, president of the 1.7 million-member American Federation of Teachers union, disagreed that arming teachers was a suitable solution.
"Anyone who wants guns in schools has no understanding of what goes on inside them - or worse, doesn't care," she said.

LeeG
02-23-2018, 02:13 PM
And three guys with boom mikes. And at least one double-breasted suit.

and the weapon was a .22 pistol. All shots missed and the one that got Reagan was a ricochet. Trump really thinks a teacher will hit the bad guy like 007 and not anyone else in the classroom.

SKIP KILPATRICK
02-23-2018, 04:43 PM
"Congressmen, if you're watching this, I promise you: me and my peers, once we're 18, you are out of there," one student said. "That's not a threat -- that's a promise."


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/high-school-students-walk-11-miles-in-support-of-marjory-stoneman-douglas/ar-BBJvkZq?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp

WX
02-24-2018, 04:13 AM
He's gonna learn how to make Australia grate even more!

Rick

Hockey thinks it's a good idea to spend our superannuation fund on toll roads in the US.

RFNK
02-24-2018, 04:43 AM
Hockey's an idiot. Always was. I was hoping that he couldn't do any harm over there!

Rick

StevenBauer
02-24-2018, 08:00 AM
https://i.redd.it/ct503qy7hzh01.jpg

Phil Y
02-24-2018, 05:02 PM
Hockey's an idiot. Always was. I was hoping that he couldn't do any harm over there!

Rick
Surprised to see you here Rick!

RFNK
02-24-2018, 05:34 PM
Letting off steam.

Rick

Phil Y
02-24-2018, 05:49 PM
Oh and the teacher thing, of course.

Daniel Noyes
02-24-2018, 05:55 PM
https://ind5.ccio.co/n7/L6/BE/f799cec9bc8764caea297b07c60a0bc3.jpg

S.V. Airlie
02-24-2018, 06:05 PM
And Reagan was well protected I see. So was Cathy Giffords. those in bans are rent a cops usually. I think more of them are shot during the robberies and the places are still robbed. I never have seen rent a cops in Business offices, I see them in government buildings. How many are shot in Government offices.

Phil Y
02-24-2018, 06:10 PM
https://ind5.ccio.co/n7/L6/BE/f799cec9bc8764caea297b07c60a0bc3.jpg

We defend our pathetic small penis insecurity.........with guns

Portland
02-24-2018, 06:12 PM
https://i.redd.it/ct503qy7hzh01.jpg


Scott Gilmore hit the nail on the head.
That is a prison.
Arming teachers to defend against an unknown assailant is just crazy.
They will be the first targetted.
Just think about it for a while.
Armed , in your classroom , trying to teach , but also every move has to be tactical.
It is obviously bad enough for those employed to defend the school , they are largely completely ineffective , but to set up teachers as targets inside , is completely crazy.
Scott Gilmore has described what the schools would be like , if they were remotely defendable.
What a terrible way to bring up children.
In prison , practising survival techniques.
Only in America !.
Rob J.

S.V. Airlie
02-24-2018, 06:14 PM
Scott Gilmore hit the nail on the head.
That is a prison.
Arming teachers to defend against an unknown assailant is just crazy.
They will be the first targetted.
Just think about it for a while.
Armed , in your classroom , trying to teach , but also every move has to be tactical.
It is obviously bad enough for those employed to defend the school , they are largely completely ineffective , but to set up teachers as targets inside , is completely crazy.
Scott Gilmore has described what the schools would be like , if they were remotely defendable.
What a terrible way to bring up children.
In prison , practising survival techniques.
Only in America !.
Rob J.That's why Trump likes it!

Portland
02-24-2018, 07:21 PM
Some practical issues.
If the teachers are also going to be defenders , they will have to be qualified for the job.
Not only how to use their weapon of choice , but tactically.
The Special forces would quickly be able to make up a mock up of any school , for the teachers to train and be assessed on.
And my guess is the first time they get brassed in training , it will scare the sheet out of them (it did me !).
It will be a military experience , unlike anything the majority of teachers have experienced before.
But , I seriously believe , that every politician in that region should also go through the same training as the teachers , defending their schools.
Let them see what they are expecting of their teachers !.
And let them then make more qualified judgements on what to expect of teachers.
That should be from the President down.
Rob J.

WX
02-24-2018, 08:06 PM
What happens if it’s the teacher who goes nuts?
Start arming the students?

Old Dryfoot
02-24-2018, 08:39 PM
Let your voice be heard.

https://www.change.org/p/tell-companies-to-cut-their-ties-with-the-nra

Portland
02-24-2018, 09:43 PM
What happens if it’s the teacher who goes nuts?
Start arming the students?

Or a student , already in the classroom.
What the proper training will do , is show the teachers , and the politicians that do it too is that they are the hunted.
It is they that will be hunted down , almost certainly seriously outgunned , and in a poor position.
WTF ?.
Forget it , it is a stupid idiotic suggestion , to somehow have teachers as armed guards.
Let them do what they are trained to do , TEACH !.
Rob J.

Portland
02-25-2018, 01:45 AM
Or a student , already in the classroom.
What the proper training will do , is show the teachers , and the politicians that do it too is that they are the hunted.
It is they that will be hunted down , almost certainly seriously outgunned , and in a poor position.
WTF ?.
Forget it , it is a stupid idiotic suggestion , to somehow have teachers as armed guards.
Let them do what they are trained to do , TEACH !.
Rob J.
I haven't seen any of the NRA apologists come up with a training program for the teachers.
What will they be taught ?.
Rob J.

BrianW
02-25-2018, 02:33 AM
I haven't seen any of the NRA apologists come up with a training program for the teachers.
What will they be taught ?.
Rob J.

The NRA probably can handle it...

https://home.nra.org/about-the-nra/


Law enforcement (http://le.nra.org/) training was next on the priority list for program development. Although a special police school had been reinstated at Camp Perry in 1956, NRA became the only national trainer of law enforcement officers with the introduction of its NRA Police Firearms Instructor certification program (http://le.nra.org/training) in 1960. Today, there are more than 13,000 NRA-certified police and security firearms instructors. Additionally, top law enforcement shooters compete each year in eight different pistol and shotgun matches at the National Police Shooting Championships (http://npsc.nra.org/) held in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

In civilian training, the NRA continues to be the leader in firearms education. Over 125,000 certified instructors now train about 1,000,000 gun owners a year. Courses (http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx) are available in basic rifle, pistol, shotgun, muzzleloading firearms, personal protection, even ammunition reloading. Additionally, nearly 7,000 certified coaches are specially trained to work with young competitive shooters. Since the establishment of the lifesaving Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program (http://eddieeagle.nra.org/) in 1988, more than 28 million pre-kindergarten to fourth grade children have learned that if they see a firearm in an unsupervised situation, they should "STOP. DON'T TOUCH. RUN AWAY. TELL A GROWNUP." Over the past seven years, Refuse To Be A Victim® (http://refuse.nra.org/) seminars have helped more than 100,000 men and women develop their own personal safety plan using common sense strategies.




We all might have to join, in order to help them educate the population.

Portland
02-25-2018, 02:50 AM
What a sick sick , only in sick America joke !.
Enjoy the killings Brian.
Rob J.

PeterSibley
02-25-2018, 04:28 AM
An Australian approach.

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/27750544_2018386255044183_3463113318164872528_n.jp g?oh=3af232412f5c461763a4fda9e0596fe4&oe=5B19308B

birlinn
02-25-2018, 05:49 AM
9mm? I thought the US would never do metric!

Portland
02-25-2018, 02:57 PM
If the NRA butchers think that more guns , more shooters will allow them to shoot and kill their way out of the predicament they have created , they are wrong , and the vulnerable will suffer , and die.
But its obviously impossible to reason with them , so as an outsider why bother trying?.
I give up , let the killing and maiming continue.
Rob J.

BrianW
02-25-2018, 03:16 PM
I haven't seen any of the NRA apologists come up with a training program for the teachers.
What will they be taught ?.
Rob J.


The NRA probably can handle it...

https://home.nra.org/about-the-nra/



We all might have to join, in order to help them educate the population.


What a sick sick , only in sick America joke !.
Enjoy the killings Brian.
Rob J.

I'm guessing you didn't like being wrong about the NRA offering gun training.

BrianW
02-25-2018, 03:19 PM
If the NRA butchers think that more guns...

This is why nothing gets done. Just like in another thread discussing banning AR-15's, after a few posts, banning shotguns with more than two shells was also the hot ticket.

Extremist ruin everything.

S.V. Airlie
02-25-2018, 03:20 PM
I'm guessing you didn't like being wrong about the NRA offering gun training.And apparently, you like them to be right! Time to live your life in a bullet proof, glass bubble Brian

Peerie Maa
02-25-2018, 03:23 PM
This is why nothing gets done. Just like in another thread discussing banning AR-15's, after a few posts, banning shotguns with more than two shells was also the hot ticket.

Extremist ruin everything.

Extremist bollocks! Our wildefowlers manage fine with double barrel shot guns. Get your head out of your butt and look further than the next county.

BrianW
02-25-2018, 03:24 PM
And apparently, you like them to be right! Time to live your life in a bullet proof, glass bubble Brian

When it comes to the largest gun safety organization in the US, absolutely I want them to be right.

S.V. Airlie
02-25-2018, 03:31 PM
When it comes to the largest gun safety organization in the US, absolutely I want them to be right.That about 8th on the list! I've read about NRA instructors who shoot themselves during a training session. Look it up Brian! And you want me to trust an NTRA instructor, Sorry I won't chance it.

BrianW
02-25-2018, 03:33 PM
That about 8th on the list! I've read about NRA instructors who shoot themselves during a training session. Look it up Brian! And you want me to trust an NTRA instructor, Sorry I won't chance it.

Okay, you don't trust the NRA. Is there any organization you would trust?

Steve McMahon
02-25-2018, 03:35 PM
When it comes to the largest gun safety organization in the US, absolutely I want them to be right.

WTF?? “Gun safety organization”????

Chip-skiff
02-25-2018, 03:36 PM
Leading with his big, slobbery mouth rather than his brain, Trumpsky has created yet another divide: between teachers who are eager (or at least willing) to carry guns in their classrooms, and those who will not.

The second group is by far the majority, I reckon.

skuthorp
02-25-2018, 03:37 PM
Okay, you don't trust the NRA. Is there any organization you would trust?

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/redherring.gif

S.V. Airlie
02-25-2018, 03:39 PM
Okay, you don't trust the NRA. Is there any organization you would trust?One like the NRA? NO! Brian, Why is the NRA having to make to an AR12 legal for an 18 yr old?Pease explain! Why is the NRA is opposed to banning bump guns, silencers, Donnies pet project, Heck why don't they just ban a type of gun that's only function is to kill at 150 every minute and a quarter? What is the NRA trying to teach? To me, it's pretty obvious, buy more guns, more profits for the gun industry.

Garret
02-25-2018, 03:43 PM
Okay, you don't trust the NRA. Is there any organization you would trust?

I know I'm not Jamie, but I have to say that I once would've trusted the NRA - but not now with the radical leadership it has. Get rid of LaPierre & Loesch & it might be able to recover - though I have my doubts.

Even if they were perfectly suited to train teachers - I still think the idea goes beyond insane to sick. Do you want your kids going to armed camps for school?

BrianW
02-25-2018, 03:53 PM
Even if they were perfectly suited to train teachers - I still think the idea goes beyond insane to sick. Do you want your kids going to armed camps for school?

I'm not for arming teachers. But in the topic of arming them, the question of how come the NRA doesn't offer to train them came up. I thought I'd mention that the NRA does train people to shoot and handle guns safely. People forget that sometimes. :)

Chip-skiff
02-25-2018, 03:54 PM
While the RWWs have been keen on "supply-side" economics, they fail to grasp the gun problem as a supply-side issue.

Here's a good opinion piece:

"The United States is in the midst of at least two plagues with much in common.

One is gun-fueled mass murder; the other is addiction to opioids — pain pills, heroin, fentanyl.

Both are uniquely American afflictions, killing in alarming numbers. Both are revved in part by commercial interests and in part by the collapse of community in American culture. Both persist because of the erroneous belief that there’s an easy answer to these complicated problems.
Above all, both are about supply.

Laid on top of a culture of increasing social isolation for many, our vast supply of easily accessible opioids has sent overdose deaths skyrocketing (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/05/upshot/opioid-epidemic-drug-overdose-deaths-are-rising-faster-than-ever.html). So, too, a vast supply of easily accessible guns has produced a similarly rising death toll (http://time.com/5011599/gun-deaths-rate-america-cdc-data/)."


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/24/opinion/sunday/guns-opioids-availability.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share

WX
02-25-2018, 03:56 PM
Try this analogy.
11763

S.V. Airlie
02-25-2018, 03:58 PM
I'm not for arming teachers. But in the topic of arming them, the question how come the NRA doesn't offer to train them came up. I thought I'd mention that the NRA does train people to shoot and handle guns safely. People forget that sometimes. :)Yup, Ive read a few gun accidents involving an NRA instructor shooting himself or someone else! That doesn't tell me much that he's NRA certified.

Peerie Maa
02-25-2018, 04:06 PM
Okay, you don't trust the NRA. Is there any organization you would trust?

An ex marine posted on this topic on FB discussing how the US army trains recruits how to be safe around guns.
I would trust them to do it.
You would need a lot more teachers though, 'cos it was a lot more than an afternoon at a shooting range.

Garret
02-25-2018, 04:07 PM
I'm not for arming teachers. But in the topic of arming them, the question how come the NRA doesn't offer to train them came up. I thought I'd mention that the NRA does train people to shoot and handle guns safely. People forget that sometimes. :)

Good to hear & you do make a point. I wish the NRA would go back to having that as a focus instead of such intense involvement in the political side.

Garret
02-25-2018, 04:13 PM
I'm guessing many here do not get emails from gun mfr's. Here's one I received Friday:


American Patriots,

The anti-gun and anti-2A forces are assembling in towns and cities across our great nation. They are emboldened by the fever pitch of the recent tragedy in Florida and feel the wind is at their back as they move, as always, to infringe further upon the rights given to us by our Founding Forefathers.

We, at [name removed], are heartbroken and disturbed by the acts of violence in Florida, committed by a mentally unstable individual that so many knew, and reported, to be a danger to our citizens.

It is only natural in times like these to want to do SOMETHING. It is also in times like this that we must not act solely for the sake of acting. Clear-headed discussions, free of emotion and knee-jerk reactions must be the order of the day. We must do something to protect our children so that these horrible acts are stopped for good. We also must do what is necessary to ensure the survival of our Second Amendment, the Amendment that protects all others. The Amendment our Founders trusted to our Republic with the words “Shall Not be Infringed”. These rights were fought for and earned with the blood of American Patriots at places like Lexington and Concord, Bunker Hill, and Trenton.

Now is the time to act. With the specter of further 2A infringements looming tall over the nation, it is imperative that you contact your Legislators and demand that they uphold their oath to protect the Constitution of our beloved United States of America. Freedom is not free. It must be fought for against the forces who would happily give up our most sacred rights and freedoms.

Please call both your Senator and Congressman using the links below:

US Senators:

http://bit.ly/1kyGkev (https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.springfield-armory.com%2Fe1t%2Fc%2F*W7SmNQX8p0VR2N4dcKNYBsSF70 %2F*W4BYHPK7Y2h18W3bRmHt5r3cQq0%2F5%2Ff18dQhb0Sjv9 8XJ8QKW7KGHsD2qwv1SM6v-0ZKngRSMf598jXD6prW7cmS1s8pCQ6vW7d09331njMDZW964vk c6bn-mZW50M_2996dt4fW7lVCZV4rzcFfW6P48sN96dQNgW3LbY8f8S 3w0pW4tctjG3jJ_0mW5KxXB65KDCtZW12tL7f5B4_wWW1tbf35 5F_2JdN3XsqW06jwwrW6qQkLP8xfqTqW4xKBBb3H_PtyW2DzCt R1yB_8WW3pgWM78Z8HqmN5KSXn3tnNS6W1Nr9f65-7tFrW82cWxh1gk4bxW4_61wf2lJXRcW1g5rgv5mD94hV15QK-3nqnXRW5h6T4V4Qnd04VDhKK32MKCmcW2WyKGj2wyPf9W5_jFr J944lTZW7t0kMt6Pc2NRN7PwtW0VzQv-VVn7DD12HD9MVKzsHP2MTRd3W2Kd90T2MtZhLW2NB2Kk3xxDzV VJgKD34bM2gcW6T8kC83NnJl9W4q9gvw7gbFZ3W56n0L_15XCp kW2D4BKZ73Q0vRV1-YZR8t79bN102&data=02%7C01%7C%7C51d88477020143b1ef8b08d57b22edef %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6365 50312318528339&sdata=F7sXg5eHMZB3%2BSn20zsmU8BaZlFR%2Fmip3tGdHl8Z huE%3D&reserved=0)

US Representatives:

http://bit.ly/2zZsgdV (https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.springfield-armory.com%2Fe1t%2Fc%2F*W7SmNQX8p0VR2N4dcKNYBsSF70 %2F*W3Xrn262gFqgBW46d-jZ7r21MS0%2F5%2Ff18dQhb0S8318YXNmFW7KGHsD2qwv1SM6v-0ZKngRSMf5fKRXD6prW39DrXV5C9bk3W5tXzSr2_lDMpW3BhG4 N6PVJWyW625bx16Gj8TSW6bVy-525hvjFVHZ5KN5D8zFFW5m3ZGG96dt4SW4r1QvY1cm8wPW8gjY 6L8WBKbVW56sy_82NhXFJW6z3tFZ85HNYcW84Yfqv3mXHLtW8h qRx_4NBLZLW2ffjZY4BKlQ8N4PLZ_wrJMs4N2csGfsqhh91W2Q Z02T1Sy5kcVnfmNM4xNw4kVK0tjh3pSMcZN4flXycpTfB4W3qB HNf83RWMyW6VkZ7m4lBZ6FVnpt4x6t_HvdW8Ph58-594T66W2MBY702KmvkLW1L2Y5Y7j-S5rW3b1b753bFXhdW5PkNwp7jbGt5W5Sz5mH1NXJTWW3J3sS01 7ncSyW8XQRDg2ckMKNN11tnjgtJCL4V3_BW-5D695g111&data=02%7C01%7C%7C51d88477020143b1ef8b08d57b22edef %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6365 50312318528339&sdata=%2FwNJtlbZiurnLQpm2HjLBz%2BsaV0cTJcu1EawJXa6 AOo%3D&reserved=0)

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

Personally, I disagree with the 2nd being "the Amendment that protects all others" IMO, that'd be the First Amendment. But there are some other disagreements I have as well...

S.V. Airlie
02-25-2018, 04:21 PM
Bryan,, you're a member, the NRA is considering to arm faculty that you're against! Good! Now, have you communicated to the NRA in any way to say this would be a bad idea?

donald branscom
02-25-2018, 04:38 PM
My wife is a teacher and this idea of arming teachers would not work very well. that is not to say that there is not any teachers qualified to handle a gun.
If the teacher had a handgun in her purse the problem is that many times the teachers do not have the purse in close proximity anyway.

I have a much better idea.

Here it is.

Almost all class rooms have a coat closet. Students hang jackets there and keep their lunches in that room.
If you add 7 sheets of 3/4 inch plywood and one more piece of sheet rock the wall would be 6 inches thick.
I believe this would protect the student from a bullet. You could have the sheriff test it.
The extra thick wall would only need to be 8 feet high. Also the door to the room could look like a mirror and not go completely to the floor.
The fake mirror door could be 6 inches from the floor.
Also there should be a window with one way glass to see out.
Or the door could be disguised as a book case. That would provide protection as well.
These are low cost doable ideas.

I am willing to bet some parents would be willing to help put the plywood panels up.

Architects need to be thinking this problem out right now. Like tomorrow.

donald branscom
02-25-2018, 04:42 PM
I was a member of the NRA.
I got fire arms safety and training from them that has lasted me during this life time.
A am grateful for the training they provide to young people. Thank you.

WX
02-25-2018, 05:02 PM
My wife is a teacher and this idea of arming teachers would not work very well. that is not to say that there is not any teachers qualified to handle a gun.
If the teacher had a handgun in her purse the problem is that many times the teachers do not have the purse in close proximity anyway.

I have a much better idea.

Here it is.Almost all class rooms have a coat closet. Students hang jackets there and keep their lunches in that room.
If you add 7 sheets of 3/4 inch plywood and one more piece of sheet rock the wall would be 6 inches thick.
I believe this would protect the student from a bullet. You could have the sheriff test it.
The extra thick wall would only need to be 8 feet high. Also the door to the room could look like a mirror and not go completely to the floor.
The fake mirror door could be 6 inches from the floor.
Also there should be a widow with one way glass to see out.
Or the door could be disguised as a book case. That would provide protection as well.
These are low cost doable ideas.

I am willing to bet some parents would be willing to help put the plywood panels up.

Architects need to be thinking this problem out right now. Like tomorrow.
Given that the shooter is often a student and would no doubt know about it...all the fish in one barrel.

S.V. Airlie
02-25-2018, 05:05 PM
I was a member of the NRA.
I got fire arms safety and training from them that has lasted me during this life time.
A am grateful for the training they provide to young people. Thank you.Glad the NRA instructor didn't train you! You might have been next if he wasn't in pain

S.V. Airlie
02-25-2018, 05:11 PM
Oh boy, a nine year old killed his instructor with an UZ!

BrianW
02-25-2018, 05:12 PM
Bryan,, you're a member, the NRA is considering to arm faculty that you're against! Good! Now, have you communicated to the NRA in any way to say this would be a bad idea?

I haven't been a member since the '80's. Mostly because I'm cheap. But just because I don't agree with arming teachers doesn't mean they are evil in my eyes.

S.V. Airlie
02-25-2018, 05:16 PM
Well, they are to a heck of a lot in this country! I can give you more reasons they are evil than you can demonstrate they're friggin' angels Brian.Yesterday, during his 90 minute rant say the kids killed lost their Constitutional right to LIFE? No he didn't, he screamed that liberals want to take away or their guns and that's a Constitutional right based their warped definition.

RFNK
02-25-2018, 05:24 PM
They sure look evil from here!

Rick

donald branscom
02-25-2018, 05:25 PM
Given that the shooter is often a student and would no doubt know about it...all the fish in one barrel.

It does not matter if the shooter finds out about the safe room. He still cannot get in or shoot through it.

Osborne Russell
02-25-2018, 05:40 PM
I haven't been a member since the '80's. Mostly because I'm cheap. But just because I don't agree with arming teachers doesn't mean they are evil in my eyes.

Just because they advocate something dangerously stupid and strong-arm politicians to help them. They're probably very nice to their dogs. How can they be evil?

George Jung
02-25-2018, 06:18 PM
This guys seems qualified to offer an opinion:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/24/opinion/sunday/marine-gun-classroom.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection %2Fopinion&action=click&contentCollection=opinion&region=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=9&pgtype=sectionfront

George Jung
02-25-2018, 06:19 PM
Is this really the world you want your kids and grandkids to have to deal with, Brian?

Peerie Maa
02-25-2018, 06:20 PM
This guys seems qualified to offer an opinion:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/24/opinion/sunday/marine-gun-classroom.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection %2Fopinion&action=click&contentCollection=opinion&region=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=9&pgtype=sectionfront

That is what I was referring to in my post #170 above.

George Jung
02-25-2018, 06:21 PM
Ooops! OTOH, ya can't go wrong with 'the classics'!

LeeG
02-25-2018, 07:43 PM
This guys seems qualified to offer an opinion:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/24/opinion/sunday/marine-gun-classroom.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection %2Fopinion&action=click&contentCollection=opinion®ion=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=9&pgtype=sectionfront


Another teacher

http://time.com/5172852/trump-guns-teachers-nra/


But let’s talk turkey. The reason the President and the National Rifle Association and others are suggesting that teachers carry weapons in the classroom is that it sounds like a quick and cheap solution to a difficult and expensive problem. I find it incredible that people who don’t trust teachers to meet state and federal education standards now trust teachers to hold the sacred lives of children in their hands. I find it incredible that those who can’t find an extra ten cents in taxes to pay for counselors and psychiatrists and new “gun-proof” buildings can now find money for weapons and bonuses for gun-toting teachers.

I don’t pretend to have all the answers, and I don’t trust folks who think they do. But I do know that we need to reframe this debate. Let’s not talk about school shootings in terms of gun control and mental health. Let’s talk about school safety. Let’s talk about whether we as a society have the will to keep our precious students safe in the place that most demands safety. It’s about getting all the stakeholders in a room: parents, teachers, police, politicians and students, rather than asking teachers to carry the entire load.

WX
02-25-2018, 07:56 PM
It does not matter if the shooter finds out about the safe room. He still cannot get in or shoot through it.

What about situations like Las Vegas?

WX
02-25-2018, 07:59 PM
People keep focusing on schools but not all of your mass murders happen in schools. You need to focus on the types of weapons these people are using, not the locations they are being used in because you can't bullet proof an outdoor concert.

donald branscom
02-25-2018, 09:50 PM
Glad the NRA instructor didn't train you! You might have been next if he wasn't in pain

I am a Vietnam era vet and my NRA training helped me when
it came to weapons qualification and handling of a fire arm in the military.

donald branscom
02-25-2018, 09:59 PM
Yes you are correct that not all mass shootings take place at schools.
This kind of problem would have to be addressed differently.
Perhaps off duty police could patrol the crowd.
The police do help a lot and already have plans for this type of problem.
In Las Vegas they seemed to get people evacuated very quickly.
If you are moving or running your chance of being hit is only about 4%.
Also the public may not know that if you are shot it does not mean you will die.
In WWII men thought they would die if shot. In the Viet Nam war they
were told they had a good chance of survival
and many more survived with quick medical treatment like you would get in a large city.

Osborne Russell
02-25-2018, 10:01 PM
People keep focusing on schools but not all of your mass murders happen in schools. You need to focus on the types of weapons these people are using, not the locations they are being used in because you can't bullet proof an outdoor concert.

I think a lot of these dudes see the school as the place where they were mercilessly tormented by their peers. So they hate the people and the place and want revenge on both. Fantasies of re-validating themselves at some point aren't enough, they have to act. If they're turned away from the place, they'll search out another where the same people congregate, such as a movie theater. Not, say, an old folks home.

Tom Wilkinson
02-25-2018, 10:11 PM
Yes you are correct that not all mass shootings take place at schools.
This kind of problem would have to be addressed differently.
Perhaps off duty police could patrol the crowd.
The police do help a lot and already have plans for this type of problem.
In Las Vegas they seemed to get people evacuated very quickly.
If you are moving or running your chance of being hit is only about 4%.
Also the public may not know that if you are shot it does not mean you will die.
In WWII men thought they would die if shot. In the Viet Nam war they
were told they had a good chance of survival
and many more survived with quick medical treatment like you would get in a large city.
So our best option is to hope for the best and basically learn to live in a war zone??? How about we stop reacting to the problem and do something to solve the problem. We don't have to live we this. We could fix it. Others have. Why are we so accepting of it???

WX
02-25-2018, 10:13 PM
Yes you are correct that not all mass shootings take place at schools.
This kind of problem would have to be addressed differently.
Perhaps off duty police could patrol the crowd.
The police do help a lot and already have plans for this type of problem.
In Las Vegas they seemed to get people evacuated very quickly.
If you are moving or running your chance of being hit is only about 4%.
Also the public may not know that if you are shot it does not mean you will die.
In WWII men thought they would die if shot. In the Viet Nam war they
were told they had a good chance of survival
and many more survived with quick medical treatment like you would get in a large city.


The massacre in Las Vegas killed 58 people and wounded 489 who were crowded together into one field,
Armed guards patrolling the venue would not have been any use as the shooter was shooting from a hotel room several hundred metres away.
Survivability is small compensation when you have just been shot while enjoying some music. Who pays your medical bills and physiotherapy afterwards? What about the loss of family members/friends? psychological damage, who pays for that? The damage from these murderous acts doesn't stop when the shooter is dead, it can last a lifetime.

Portland
02-25-2018, 10:17 PM
If small magazines are the norm , if there are no semi autos , and purchase of a lot of ammo or bullets or cases or primers flags authorities , then even licensed firearm owners with legally bought weapons will , or should come to the attention of authorities if they buy in bulk.
Weapons need to be stored properly , parents should not allow children access to gun safe keys.
You can have all the Rambo's you want strutting around looking for a gunfight , but in reality , they would just make matters worse.
The choose for America is the lives of the vulnerable , or the ability to have auto/semi auto weapons capable of putting down a lot of deadly firepowerin civilian hands.
I , most people , think its a "no-brainer" , but there are still a lot who want to have that immense killing power at their disposal.
That this debacle wasn't sorted ages ago is unbelievable.
Rob J.

donald branscom
02-25-2018, 10:18 PM
I think a lot of these dudes see the school as the place where they were mercilessly tormented by their peers. So they hate the people and the place and want revenge on both. Fantasies of re-validating themselves at some point aren't enough, they have to act. If they're turned away from the place, they'll search out another where the same people congregate, such as a movie theater. Not, say, an old folks home.

I agree, and we need more mental health experts in our schools to discuss this with the students.

Portland
02-25-2018, 10:31 PM
"Yes you are correct that not all mass shootings take place at schools.
This kind of problem would have to be addressed differently.
Perhaps off duty police could patrol the crowd.
The police do help a lot and already have plans for this type of problem.
In Las Vegas they seemed to get people evacuated very quickly.
If you are moving or running your chance of being hit is only about 4%.
Also the public may not know that if you are shot it does not mean you will die.
In WWII men thought they would die if shot. In the Viet Nam war they
were told they had a good chance of survival
and many more survived with quick medical treatment like you would get in a large city."


For the people in the Las Vegas shooting running made no difference.
They were in the shooters "killing zone" , and all he did was empty magazines in to that zone.
No different to WW1 , on , a standard infantry tactic.
And yes , I have no doubt a lot of those people who survived , wish they were dead.
Their pain , their suffering , their grief , their mental anguish , really , they would just want it all to end.
That gunman not only killed a lot of people , he destroyed the lives of a lot more.
Not much different to wars , including the more recent wars.
The only way , the only way to stop that sort of thing happening , is to make it extremely difficult to get semi auto/auto firearms , large magazines , and piles of ammo.
Rob J.

Nicholas Scheuer
02-25-2018, 10:34 PM
My High School Teacher daughter in Beaverton, OR doesn't think the idea won't fly there.

Garret
02-26-2018, 07:41 AM
I see people talking about limiting ammo & get it, but there are people out there with literally 100's of thousands of rounds. I was waiting in line to get some ammo a couple of years ago & overheard 2 guys talking: "What they let me buy today will get me to 120,000 rounds." "I have about 150,000 and my friend Joe has over 200,000"

This was during the Obama era, when every gun owner knew for sure that the Dems would make all guns illegal - but to me it shows a mindset that is completely foreign to me. How on earth is one person gonna use that much ammo?

redeye1962
02-26-2018, 09:29 AM
All of the active shooter classes I have taken suggest to lock the doors, block the doors, turn off the lights and stay close to the door. They do not suggest chasing the shooter. If the active shooter gets into the room is the time to fight or flight. It would be more even if the people in the rooms had a weapon of their own. Some are suggesting the arming of teachers is so they can chase the shooter down. I doubt this is the case. Shootings have been happening for a long time now and unfortunately for some reason we now want to do something about it. Mid Term elections may not have anything to do with it or the fact Trump is in office so we can blame him.

Sailor
02-26-2018, 09:33 AM
I bet there were German machine gun pill boxes on D day beaches didn't fire that much in their combined lifetimes, much less one lone back woods hillbilly in the US.

LeeG
02-26-2018, 09:35 AM
I see people talking about limiting ammo & get it, but there are people out there with literally 100's of thousands of rounds. I was waiting in line to get some ammo a couple of years ago & overheard 2 guys talking: "What they let me buy today will get me to 120,000 rounds." "I have about 150,000 and my friend Joe has over 200,000"

This was during the Obama era, when every gun owner knew for sure that the Dems would make all guns illegal - but to me it shows a mindset that is completely foreign to me. How on earth is one person gonna use that much ammo?

Practicality isn’t in the picture when dealing with totems and hoarding. Think of the old guy with stacks of bound newspapers lining the walls. It helps provide comfort and order. They can look at the boxes “got that one when it was $.34 a round, wish I got more, but I got some”

Canoez
02-26-2018, 10:01 AM
Glad the NRA instructor didn't train you! You might have been next if he wasn't in pain

NRA, NMLRA, and other safety and marksmanship training programs are a good thing, Jamie. The materials that they have for those programs is actually consistent and good. If folks are going to shoot, they should get good training. As a matter of fact, I'm of the opinion it should be a prerequisite for a license to possess and ownership.

There are exceptions to every rule, however, and there have been issues with instructors. I don't see how you prevent that.

The bad thing is the lobbying side of the NRA.

Tom Wilkinson
02-26-2018, 10:13 AM
I see people talking about limiting ammo & get it, but there are people out there with literally 100's of thousands of rounds. I was waiting in line to get some ammo a couple of years ago & overheard 2 guys talking: "What they let me buy today will get me to 120,000 rounds." "I have about 150,000 and my friend Joe has over 200,000"

This was during the Obama era, when every gun owner knew for sure that the Dems would make all guns illegal - but to me it shows a mindset that is completely foreign to me. How on earth is one person gonna use that much ammo?

I know several people like that. I don't understand it at all.

George Jung
02-26-2018, 10:18 AM
I wonder if those jokers know that ammo 'goes bad' over time? I had some old ammo, years back, that my soninlaw used - most of it wouldn't fire. 150,000 rounds of duds. Nice retirement plan.

donald branscom
02-26-2018, 10:21 AM
So our best option is to hope for the best and basically learn to live in a war zone??? How about we stop reacting to the problem and do something to solve the problem. We don't have to live we this. We could fix it. Others have. Why are we so accepting of it???

I did offer some solutions.(safe room) When the president asked a group of parents and students if they had any ideas, no one raised their hand except one person.
That person suggested that the teachers or some teachers could be armed.
There were no other solutions offered.

redeye1962
02-26-2018, 10:50 AM
I did offer some solutions.(safe room) When the president asked a group of parents and students if they had any ideas, no one raised their hand except one person.
That person suggested that the teachers or some teachers could be armed.
There were no other solutions offered.
I must agree where there is a lot of "we have to do something" but nothing is suggested except making it harder for people to get guns or outlaw them all together. Either way if a bad guy wants to kill someone they will find a way. We should outlaw murder then no one would do it again.

George Jung
02-26-2018, 11:11 AM
So fearful of taking even a small step, eh? So sad.

Canoez
02-26-2018, 11:20 AM
I must agree where there is a lot of "we have to do something" but nothing is suggested except making it harder for people to get guns or outlaw them all together. Either way if a bad guy wants to kill someone they will find a way. We should outlaw murder then no one would do it again.

There's nothing that says we have to make it easy for the bad guy.

LeeG
02-26-2018, 11:22 AM
So fearful of taking even a small step, eh? So sad.

fear does a great job in closing down options.

George Jung
02-26-2018, 11:31 AM
fear does a great job in closing down options.

Yeah. But an intelligent person should be able to look at this, see they are 'hamstrung', and at least consider how to address the issue.

Garret
02-26-2018, 11:36 AM
I wonder if those jokers know that ammo 'goes bad' over time? I had some old ammo, years back, that my soninlaw used - most of it wouldn't fire. 150,000 rounds of duds. Nice retirement plan.

I did ask one about it going bad & he said he keeps it temp & humidity controlled. My guess is that the room for storing it is in his survival shelter...

George Jung
02-26-2018, 11:39 AM
I'm certainly no 'expert' - but even with those controls, it's got a finite expected 'good til' date. Helluva way to lose your retirement funds, eh?

LeeG
02-26-2018, 11:43 AM
I did ask one about it going bad & he said he keeps it temp & humidity controlled. My guess is that the room for storing it is in his survival shelter...

200,000 rounds is a heck of a lot of money even if it’s half .22s

Tom Wilkinson
02-26-2018, 11:57 AM
I did offer some solutions.(safe room) When the president asked a group of parents and students if they had any ideas, no one raised their hand except one person.
That person suggested that the teachers or some teachers could be armed.
There were no other solutions offered.

That's not a solution to the problem, it's a reaction. It basically assumes the shooting will happen. Solutions should be aimed at preventing the shooting, not just limiting the damage and death when it happens. It's pretty well known what it takes to prevent it. There are examples all around the world. We simply don't have the will to do it.

JimD
02-26-2018, 12:04 PM
https://pics.me.me/lther98-chris-kyle-the-greatest-american-sniper-in-military-history-31111278.png

John of Phoenix
02-26-2018, 12:24 PM
"He wan't confronted..."

His killer was just your garden variety psycho with a gun. reds don't get it and never will.

cglynn
02-26-2018, 12:49 PM
I must agree where there is a lot of "we have to do something" but nothing is suggested except making it harder for people to get guns or outlaw them all together. Either way if a bad guy wants to kill someone they will find a way. We should outlaw murder then no one would do it again.

Indeed, people who wish to harm others will find a way to do so. But you have to admit, a gun makes severely injuring multiple people in a short amount of time very easy. Were the perpetrators of any of the mass shootings we have seen armed with something like a knife, would they have been able to kill somebody? Yes. Would they have been able to kill two people? Maybe. Would the potential victims have had a better chance against an assailant armed with a knife rather than a firearm? I think any logical and sane person would agree that the chances of survival are far greater for a stab wound vs a bullet wound. Even more so if the bullet is one fired from the mass shooters' weapon of choice, the high powered semi automatic rifle.

On the other hand, we could provide those potential victims with arms of their own for protection. So arm the teachers with concealed handguns right? At first thought, maybe just maybe it sounds like a good idea. Heck, even our president suggested it. But clearly, neither he, nor those who support that measure have any experience with active shooting situations, and I would also question their experiences with firearms in general. So lets look at why maybe arming the teachers isn't such a great plan, from a practical, rather than emotional standpoint.

Here goes.

1) Magazine capacity. Easily concealable handguns have a mag capacity of 7-10rds, plus one in the chamber. That gives the well meaning teacher with a gun at most 11 shots. The bad guy with the AR15 (again, going by current statistics, that is the school shooters weapon of choice) can have up to 100rds in his/her mag, if a drum type magazine is used. Otherwise, 30 is the most common.

2) Accuracy and range. Easily concealable handguns are accurate to maybe 25 feet, if you are really good. I highly doubt most teachers are really good. Combine that with the adrenaline of a gunfight and all bets are off. Look at the instances in which LEO's are involved in shooting situations at similar ranges (with handguns, because remember, that's what they want the teachers to have), and how many shots are fired vs how many times the "bad guy" is hit. And those are personnel explicitly trained in use of firearms, not a 25 year old woman with a reading certification. The AR platform, on the other hand is very accurate, even with the stock open sights. It is not difficult to hit a human sized target at over 50yds with an AR platform using the sights that come with the gun. If you were to put an electronic dot type tactical sight on the AR, it becomes accurate to 100yds. (I am not great with tactical type rifle and could shoot soda cans at 75yds with an AR and Eotech sight).

3) Hydraulic shock of the bullet wound. The bullet doesn't just penetrate. It also displaces the liquid inside the body. The .223 rem is going around 3,000ft/sec and impacts with over 1000 ftlbs of energy. The damage it causes is nothing short of devastating. A 9mm round from a handgun on the other hand goes around 1250 ft/sec and around 350 ftlbs of energy. Or if you don't like numbers, just Youtube ballistics gel being shot with a 9mm vs a .223 round. And imagine that happening inside a body.

So, from a practical standpoint, I don't see how arming the teachers would really help at all. The teacher would have to sneak up on the assailant and get within 25 feet (and that is being generous) of him in order to engage the target. That means leaving a classroom full of scared ishless kids alone while there is a shooter in the building. Now, the teacher is in the halls trying to sneak up on the assailant. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. If they do, okay, they may end up on the better side of that engagement. But if the shooter sees them and engages them, there are .223 rounds flying at that teacher with a predictable greater amount of accuracy and frequency than the teacher can manage. Not to mention that the report of a .223 round inside a building is F'ing LOUD and incredibly disorienting. So honestly, how does a teacher effectively engage a target under those circumstances?

Bottom line, I don't see anyone but the most highly trained operators being able to be effective in an active shooting situation. Anyone who thinks otherwise, is either living in fantasy land, or is completely ignorant to the realities of firearms.
Or how about this...any of our legislators who think arming teachers is a good idea (potus included) get to take a field trip. I am sure one of our military factilities can mock up a school building in a day or so. So the congress critters and potus get to play teacher with their concealed handgun and 11 rounds of paint filled training ammo, and a dude busts into the school with an AR, semi auto only, and a few 30rd paint ammo training mags. Who do you think wins? And if nothing else, it would allow our representatives to enjoy a taste of reality, as opposed to gun fetishist fantasy land.

Oh, and with respect to armed teachers as a deterrent to shooters....Guess what? They know that their AR's are better weapons than concealed handguns. That and most school shooters go into the shooting knowing they are going to die, either by LEO or self inflicted gunshot. So there again, the argument just doesn't hold up.

So really, unfortunately lads, the only real effective and practical solution is ensure that people with ill intentions, cannot get their hands on semi automatic high powered rifles. So the debate should not be about those guns, but rather about how we prevent them from getting into the wrong hands, or how we minimize their effectiveness as a killer of people, which is what they were designed to do.

LeeG
02-26-2018, 12:59 PM
cglynn, thx for the effort in that post. The DoNald doesnt care if his words reflect fantasy or ignorance. He’s appealing to the simple thinking of a child in adults when they are afraid. Simple black and white thinking. There is no way an adult who has cared for children or been in a learning environment can think carrying a firearm in a classroom makes sense. But for those who want to emulate war zones it makes sense.

George Jung
02-26-2018, 01:19 PM
cglynn, well-thought-out, reasonable post.

Unfortunately.... no one on the 'other side' employing such logic.

Steve McMahon
02-26-2018, 01:33 PM
I just watched a bit of a clip of trump saying he would have gone into the school unarmed and that the Deputies there are cowards. trump isn't just an embarrassment to Americans, he's an embarrassment to humankind.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/26/politics/trump-florida-school-without-a-weapon/index.html

John of Phoenix
02-26-2018, 01:44 PM
I just watched a bit of a clip of trump saying he would have gone into the school unarmed and that the Deputies there are cowards. trump isn't just an embarrassment to Americans, he's an embarrassment to humankind.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/26/politics/trump-florida-school-without-a-weapon/index.htmlYeah, he would have charged right in there... if not for those damned bone spurs.

:D LMAO :D

Boater14
02-26-2018, 01:45 PM
Remember when we thought talk was cheap? Fl attny gen said the same thing. Roomed with a little blond guy was a sgt in the big red one. Never said a word about Vietnam. In dress greens on parade day the left side of his chest would put most generals to shame. Takes something to head into the gunfire.

LeeG
02-27-2018, 10:02 AM
I just watched a bit of a clip of trump saying he would have gone into the school unarmed and that the Deputies there are cowards. trump isn't just an embarrassment to Americans, he's an embarrassment to humankind.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/26/politics/trump-florida-school-without-a-weapon/index.html

His manner of speech and what ideas he expresses are horrifyingly disconnected from reality. He wants to arm teachers, he wants to arm only skilled shooters who are teachers and give them a bonus because a little extra money for deadly force is only fair. The guard is a coward, Trump wouldn’t be a coward. More guns are good, oh maybe fewer guns is good. He’s a pile of goo with little understanding or care for raising children, it’s womens work.

Osborne Russell
02-27-2018, 10:23 AM
Remember when we thought talk was cheap? Fl attny gen said the same thing. Roomed with a little blond guy was a sgt in the big red one. Never said a word about Vietnam. In dress greens on parade day the left side of his chest would put most generals to shame. Takes something to head into the gunfire.

In my experience, the ones that head into the S don't talk about it much after, and certainly not before; and the ones that talk never did and never will. It's one of most reliable indicators. You have to wonder why they are talking about what they would do. In their imagination, they are overcoming a challenge they haven't faced. Why?

Osborne Russell
02-27-2018, 10:29 AM
trump isn't just an embarrassment to Americans, he's an embarrassment to humankind.

What used to be described as decency.


As far as I can tell, based on my experience listening to patients, growing a business, reading the news, and talking with friends, family and colleagues, the kind of moral fiber and stalwart attitude my father embodied and championed is now in short supply. It's not necessarily even seen as a good thing anymore.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/experimentations/201702/what-ever-happened-basic-human-decency

norseman
02-27-2018, 11:08 AM
"He wan't confronted..."

His killer was just your garden variety psycho with a gun. reds don't get it and never will.

Here in Europe it seems absurd to arm teachers but I see Your point. When universities, banks etc have security why not high schools? But then why not arm everyone including 16 year olds? The real question is why were the warnings ignored? And what about psychotropic drugs involved in most mass shootings?

birlinn
02-28-2018, 01:38 PM
@AP 5.37pm 28 Feb
BREAKING: Police in Georgia respond to shots fired at high school and have taken a teacher into custody. No children hurt.

LeeG
02-28-2018, 02:05 PM
@AP 5.37pm 28 Feb
BREAKING: Police in Georgia respond to shots fired at high school and have taken a teacher into custody. No children hurt.

hopefully it was a teacher who was naturally skilled, like golfers.

https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/breaking-teacher-custody-after-shot-fired-school/Yszy9v7Z9Vy86bTp9ygdWJ/

Tom Wilkinson
02-28-2018, 02:10 PM
hopefully it was a teacher who was naturally skilled, like golfers.

https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/breaking-teacher-custody-after-shot-fired-school/Yszy9v7Z9Vy86bTp9ygdWJ/

Oh yeah, this arming teachers thing sounds like a great idea!

birlinn
02-28-2018, 02:12 PM
Pity it's over- Trump could have gone in unarmed.....

Garret
02-28-2018, 03:09 PM
hopefully it was a teacher who was naturally skilled, like golfers.

https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/breaking-teacher-custody-after-shot-fired-school/Yszy9v7Z9Vy86bTp9ygdWJ/

So - was he a good guy with a gun? A bad guy? Were the police able to tell?

Guns in schools is such a good idea... [insert sarcasm meter]

LeeG
02-28-2018, 04:25 PM
So - was he a good guy with a gun? A bad guy? Were the police able to tell?

Guns in schools is such a good idea... [insert sarcasm meter]

I’m guessing he was having problems and somehow a gun was part of the solution.
Teacher : “I’m lonely” .
Gun : “Use me”
Teacher : “I’m mad”
Gun: “Use me”
Teacher : “I’m getting fired”
Gun : “Use me”
Teacher : “Some of the students are awful and messing with me”
Gun : “Use me “

John of Phoenix
02-28-2018, 04:36 PM
@AP 5.37pm 28 Feb
BREAKING: Police in Georgia respond to shots fired at high school and have taken a teacher into custody. No children hurt.The shooter's profile -

Davidson, a 53-year-old social studies teacher, has been at Dalton High since 2004. In 2012, he was recognized as the school’s top teacher, according to Dalton Public Schools, which wrote about Davidson’s non-traditional path to teaching in a profile that year.

“He’s a good teacher,” Bartoo said"

[trump tweeted] suggested “armed educators (and trusted people who work within a school) ... should get yearly” bonuses.

There goes his "Gun toters annual bonus".

Daniel Noyes
02-28-2018, 04:49 PM
The shooter's profile -

Davidson, a 53-year-old social studies teacher, has been at Dalton High since 2004. In 2012, he was recognized as the school’s top teacher, according to Dalton Public Schools, which wrote about Davidson’s non-traditional path to teaching in a profile that year.

“He’s a good teacher,” Bartoo said"

[trump tweeted] suggested “armed educators (and trusted people who work within a school) ... should get yearly” bonuses.

There goes his "Gun toters annual bonus".



was the bloke in question a certified "school marshal" gone off the rails?... if not, he's just another reason to arm and train qualified teachers.

WX
02-28-2018, 04:51 PM
was the bloke in question a certified "school marshal" gone off the rails?... if not, he's just another reason to arm and train qualified teachers.
He was an armed teacher! So who do you arm to protect the teachers and students from the teacher? :)

Tom Wilkinson
02-28-2018, 04:54 PM
was the bloke in question a certified "school marshal" gone off the rails?... if not, he's just another reason to arm and train qualified teachers.

He is the perfect example of why not to, and why more guns simply isn't the answer.

You guys are so scared of everything that the only answer you ever have is more guns.

Jim Bow
02-28-2018, 05:13 PM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?235396-Georgia-teacher-fired-at-least-one-shot-inside-classroom-police-say

John of Phoenix
02-28-2018, 05:25 PM
Assistant teachers?Those are the ammo bearers.

AlanMc
03-01-2018, 09:43 AM
https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28379145_2078466682170149_5927088471732438_n.jpg?o h=14b87a338c241ed2ec8fcc8e4a3cbe59&oe=5AFF9311

David G
03-04-2018, 09:18 PM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28577931_1954166511563438_4655489189323499286_n.jp g?oh=c3b0733be943e7ff74c794e253ee7074&oe=5B122AF2

Chip-skiff
03-05-2018, 01:37 AM
We homeschool our offspring.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5a/0f/8a/5a0f8a1bffcc7633a00e2d966f34bffc.jpg

We don't need no stinkin' guns. Especially in human hands.

Ron Williamson
03-05-2018, 06:32 AM
Puppies!!!!
R