Ode to a Broken Seacock

[David Kippen]

This weekend, I decided to clean up the cooling system on GIOIA MIA, replacing some old, soft hoses, replacing the thermostat, moving the expansion tank to a more useful spot, and so on.

Soon after I stepped into the engine compartment, I noticed that there was a lot of water around my feet: the top of a seacock and the hose to the salt water pump had parted company. (The salt water pump's only function is to pass water through the Velvet Drive's heat exchanger: the engine is keel cooled.)

On closer inspection, I saw that it was not the hose, but the iron pipe the hose was attached to that had corroded off, right above the seacock. I also saw, which I hadn't noticed before, that the seacock was not a real seacock, but rather, was a bronze ball joint--probably from Home Depot--screwed onto the seacock below. (The proper seacock appears to be frozen shut. I suspect that putting on a ball joint seemed easier than rebuilding the seacock.)

In a perfect world, I'd remove the ball joint, fix the seacock, and get on with it until haul out later this year, but, to make matters worse, I'm told that the seacock and the ball joint have different threads and probably wouldn't decouple without more force than I'd want to apply to a fixture that's probably old enough not to need the stress. (Yes, I have the tapered wooden plug and rubber mallet nearby just in case.)

So, here's where I am now. I've closed the ball joint, removed the salt water pump, removed the thermostat from the diesel, and added the transmission heat exchanger to the diesel's keel cooler circuit. (The diesel's an old detroit 2-53. Under ordinary circumstances, it runs with a 170 degree thermostat, but I know that many similar motors run at 140 degrees or lower.)

Any thoughts or suggestions on:
--how to remove the ball valve from the seacock without the use of excessive force;
--how to unfreeze the lower seacock, again, without using excessive force;
--potential damage to my engine or transmission;
--how to replace a seacock in the water;
would be sincerely appreciated.

Thanks so much,

David

[Bob Cleek]

First off, how long have you owned this boat and did you have it surveyed before you bought it? If you just bought it recently and did not have it surveyed, consider yourself a very lucky camper.

As now I am sure you have found obvious, NEVER, EVER, EVER, MIX BRONZE AND IRON PIPE FITTINGS ON THROUGH HULLS! Whoever did that should not be allowed around boats and should not be permitted to play with sharp pointed objects. They are a menace! No ****, Sherlock! The iron nipple corroded through right at the threads. Sinks boats all the time.

Now, the ball valve you are describing, "bronze with a stainless ball," COULD be a marine ball cock, and these are entirely suitable. They are relatively new on the market. As good or better than the old cone or petcock style cocks. They don't require the lapping, greasing and adjustment of the old ones. So, check it carefully (or have somebody who knows do it.) It may save you a few bucks if you can continue to use it as the cock.

You will probably find that the reason this repair was done as it was (aside from the fact that the guy who was doing it had his head up someplace besides the bilge!) because the damn seacock is frozen on the through-hull fitting. This is one of the nastiest repair jobs around. There is nothing for it but to put muscle to it with the right sized pipe wrench. Problem is, a good and frozen cock will likely turn the through hull fitting in the hull before it breaks loose (heating it may help), and that assumes you have enough space to get a wrench on it and room to put some leverage to it. You don't want to rip up the through hull hole, or, Gott verbit, snap it off completely. (It ain't the water coming in that's the problem, a plug fixes that, it's just that you need the spud end to have something to hold onto when you put the wrench to it to take it out.) A standard through hull will have a couple of little nibs on the inside. Take a tapered piece of maybe 1/4" steel and shove it in there from the outside with a big wrench on it. Use that to keep the fitting from turning while you worry the nut off of it from the inside. (Obviously, this is a two man job and... if you are prone to expressing your frustrations colorfully, don't bring along anybody who's sensitive to bad language.)

I'd suggest you haul the boat, find a buddy who is a good old fashioned pipefitter or plumber and has a good selection of tools, get him good and liquored up and, well, you know the rest. Remove the whole shebang (you may be able to use the ball cock if it is a marine one... bronze, not brass!). Put in a new through hull fitting and seacock with a proper bronze nipple on it (one with ridges for hose, not threads.) That should do the trick and you'll have peace of mind. Figure that if you can't get the old seacock off of the through hull, you can cut it off. Through hulls aren't that expensive. If it comes off easily, and the through hull looks good, maybe you can leave it there, however, be suspicious. The iron nipple was working as sort of a "sacrificial zinc" there for you, but the through hull might be pretty punky. If it looks pink, I'd change it. Worth the few bucks for sure, while your there....

As for your other questions, it depends on what kind of old fashioned seacock you've got there. There are a couple of basic types. One type fastens to the through hull spud "in line" and the through hull has its own nut to hold it in the hull. If you remove this type, you'll still have a through hull sitting there, held in with its nut. The other type is a bigger problem, because the seacock actually serves to hold the through hull in the hull. These have a big wide flat base on them and screw down flush against the through hull butt block (you DO have a butt block there, don't you?).

Either way, on old seacocks, there should be a nut on the opposite side of the pet shaft from the handle. If you loosen this nut and take it off, and remove the big washer, the pet (cone) will slide out the opposite side (toward the handle.) You may need to heat the cock body to loosen the cone. If you use a big dead blow hammer, it should come loose (put doubled nuts on the end of the shaft so you don't gall the end of the threaded shaft when you hit it.) After disassembly, use some lapping compound to mate the pet and cock body and then clean it well and put stopcock grease on it and reassemble. Obviously, you have to haul out to do this job, unless you have lots of room to work below and have a diver who can plug the through hull from the outside. Hard to lap a cock with the water rushing in, if you know what I mean.

One more suggestion... get your plumber buddy to look at it BEFORE you have a go at it and gall all the threads and bolt faces on him. It'll make his life easier. This is one job where a guy with trade tricks can perform miracles and you'll save a bunch of skinned knuckels and head bumps!

[ 09-16-2002, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Bob Cleek ]

[John R Smith]

My friends

if you have an old wooden boat with seacocks

PRINT THIS OUT

and keep it safe. Because you WILL need it ;)

John

[Mike Field]

Ha. You beat me to it, John. I was about to say, "And here endeth the lesson."

[holzbt]

For about $10 or $15 you can go and buy a spud wrench at your local plumbing supply. It's easier to find and will work at least as well as the tapered piece of 1/4" steel that BC mentions for keeping the through hull from spinning as you wrestle the seacock off. It looks like a stepped piece of shafting with a groove on each side to grab the nubs inside the through hull.

[Ed Harrow]

Heck for that kind of money you can fix yourself up with one fine spud gun and not have to worry about how to remove the seacock... ;)

[David Kippen]

Thanks, Bob, for the good advice.

Yes, I know I'm a lucky camper. We bought her in December, without a survey, and I've been marching in where angels fear to tread ever since. The former owner is a very nice guy, but he's a long-haul trucker who owned a boat. His view seems to have been that what was good enough for his truck was good enough for his boat. So...I learned his lesson for him.

And yes, you're right again: the lower seacock is frozen. It is the second type of old-fashioned seacock you described, with a big, flat base with a couple of brass screws through it to the butt block.

There are two nuts, as you described, but the cone didn't move when I loosened it. I think I'd better wait until I find a plumber buddy to go at it--or at least until I haul out--before I start banging away.

In the meanwhile, how can I tell whether the ball cock is a marine ball cock? If it's a question of brass vs. bronze construction, is there a sure-fire way to tell dirty brass from dirty bronze? If not, what should I look for?

Thanks again,

David

[Concordia..41]

Aye - that's a keeper :D

[Bob Cleek]

As for the ball cock, see if you can find some manufacturer's markings on it. You can tell the difference by looking, but I wouldn't rely on my description here to go on. Brass fittings generally will turn pretty green in a bilge, while bronze gets brown and dark grey, but that's a pretty vague description. Frankly, I don't know if they even make non-marine ball valves. I've only seen the marine (bronze) ones. If it has a maker's name like Wilcox-Crittenden or Algonquin on it, it's a marine one, most likely. You're plumber friends can probably tell you by looking at it. Otherwise, you can take it off and bring it to the chandlery. Compare it to what they've got.

I did forget to mention that the old flat based seacocks did sometimes have a couple of screws in the base to keep it from spinning on the butt block. Hopefully they were really good silicon bronze and they will come out for you. If not, well... you will have to drill them out before you can get the seacock to turn at all. Kill a chicken or burn incense or something and hope they don't strip on you.

There was one really important thing I forgot to mention about removing the pet (cone). It is really best to do this out of the water. I have on occasion yanked one in the water and stuffed a rag in the holes (the water gushes out both ends of where the cone was, you know.) That was just when I knew it just needed a coating of grease. I quit doing that, though. When you reassemble the cone, washer and nut, you have to be careful how tight you make the nut. The tighter it is, the more it pulls the cone into the cock, and the harder the cone is to turn. Now, what keeps it from leaking isn't tightening that nut. What keeps it from leaking is a very smoothly and fairly lapped surface between the two, with the grease in there. I didn't have as good a surface as I should have and well... I tightened that nut just a leeeeetle to tight... Like the man says..."Tight enough means you tighten it until the bolt breaks and then back off a quarter turn!" I twisted that little threaded tit right off the thing... kerplunk! into the bilge. That left me with a seacock that was toast and a boat that was filling up fast. I jambed the cone in there and wrapped it up with duct tape and towels. (The water pressure sometimes will try to loosen the cone and push it out.) I got a buddy to man the pump while I ran out and got another through hull. We yanked the old one off (thank God it turned easily!) and slapped the new one on with water gushing in all over. Fortunately, it worked. Never again! LOL Better to service the seacocks each time you haul out. A little grease on the threads and so on makes life a lot easier.

[formerlyknownasprince]

If you've got problems like that, slip the boat and replace all your through-hulls.

I got charged 8 hours labour to replace the seacocks on the engine intakes of Grantala a couple of years ago. That was ridiculous. I just did the rest myself and didn't spend more than 15 minutes getting any single one out. I used an angle grinder on the outside to cut "petals" (as in flower petals) into the flange, being very careful to not cut timber, then used a cold chisel to knock each petal in to the centre until they snapped off - then just tap the seacock in through the hole.

I had more trouble fitting the new through hulls. Two were in such horrible locations that I had no option but to tighten them with a cold chisel. Not pretty, but more realistic than spending a day trying to source super-large, long tube spanners to fit a through-hull with a 2" bore size.

Ian