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Norman Bernstein
01-26-2018, 11:04 AM
American governance doesn't work, without compromise.... which pretty much explains why government, in the age of absolutist intransigence on the part of our political spectrum , is massively dysfunctional.

It has been bad for a while, and has most certainly gotten worse, since the election... but the roots of this problem date back a way. One significant milestone was the 'Hastert Rule', named for the former Speaker of the House, whose idea of leadership was that no bill could ever reach a vote unless the majority of the majority wanted it to. Think about it: in today's Senate, if such a rule was applied, it could mean that a bill which would get the support of 74 senators would never get a floor vote, if only 26 senators opposed it.

So now, we're faced with a proposal which probably won't live to see the light of day... but it poses some interesting questions.

The proposal: to break the logjam regarding immigration, DACA, and border security, Trump offers the following:

The legalization of 1.8 million immigrants living in the US, including the 800,000 'dreamers' who are already registered, as well as a million more who are not currently registered... with a path to citizenship.

In return for which, he wants:

$25 BILLION dollars for 'the wall', and
The reduction of immigration to far lower levels, combined with 'merit based' requirements that basically exclude many people of color, the poor, refugees, etc.

I don't think I could be more enthusiastic about the legalization of 1.8M immigrants... since I believe, and research has demonstrated, that immigrants of all kinds are a significant net benefit, to this country. It's also the compassionate and humanitarian thing to do; these people are already part of the fabric of our society, contribute significantly to the economy, and are most often superb citizens.

Of course, the $25 BILLION for a really dumb and useless wall... an amount which is nearly half as much as Trump proposes for an increase in military funding... is truly offensive... as is the 'merit based' proposal, and reduction of immigration, which is, at it's heart, essentially racist.

The question, then, is... in the spirit of compromise, which is the grease that makes government function.....

Is it worth it?

amish rob
01-26-2018, 11:07 AM
Seems to be a pretty big concession on HIS (their) part to now want to allow immigrants to stay.

It would be foolish to not attempt compromise now.

I think. But, Iím pretty dumb. :)

Peace,
Robert

Norman Bernstein
01-26-2018, 11:11 AM
Seems to be a pretty big concession on HIS (their) part to now want to allow immigrants to stay.

I'm not so sure, since it's unclear whether the GOP would ever want to pay the political price for ejecting the dreamers. It's to their cynical political advantage to keep the dreamers in limbo... think of all the concessions they could continue to extract from the Democrats, who absolutely cannot sacrifice them. So, it's really not THAT much of a concession.

Regarding the wall, and the reduced and restricted immigration, these are things that can be changed, with a change of administration... so the gamble, for Democrats, would be the hope that after impeachment, or a 25th amendment resolution, as well as a blue wave in the midterms, the wall and the immigration policy could be reversed.

amish rob
01-26-2018, 11:16 AM
The dude said they ALL have to go.

Now he says they can stay.

Everyone who follows politics knows this is ALL dog whistling. Nobody ever planned to make all the people here leave. So? If the dems donít take this deal, they are dumb. Then THEY become the ones in the way of the dreamers staying. According to what the spin will be.

And the electorate, for the most part, ainít got the time to follow the minutiae, so they go by the big picture. The big picture here shows someone making ďconcessionsĒ.

This is a very astute play.

Peace,
Robert

Keith Wilson
01-26-2018, 11:17 AM
Hostage-taking. One may have respect for the office, but the current occupant is a despicable piece of excrement. :pmad:

S.V. Airlie
01-26-2018, 11:18 AM
In all the discussions earlier until the government took a 3 day vacation, Trump was asking 18 billion for the wall, now it's up to 25 billion first issue. The second is, it's allowing for more billions spent down the road. And, there is no set time for DACA kids to get citizenship. It's like the cartoon in most car mechanic's shops; You want it when? As to 90% reduction in immigration leaving 10% and merit based I'm against. Trump's mother wouldn't pass Trump's smell test although she was white!

Too Little Time
01-26-2018, 11:36 AM
It is about $14K/immigrant. Is that a fair price? I think I would pay that much to stay in this country. So I guess I would pay that amount to let others stay.

Reynard38
01-26-2018, 11:59 AM
The wall is stupid. Doubtful even with the $25million it’ll get built. However it will provide work for US companies and workers so that $$will make its way back into the system.
The 1.8million that will get to stay? That’s a huge deal, and it really sticks in the craw of “the base”. Drives ‘em crazy.

I say call his bluff. Say OK Donny, you got a deal. Then stand back and watch the fun!

Norman Bernstein
01-26-2018, 12:03 PM
I wonder what the over/under is, on the likelihood of a deal like this ever going through.... I'd give it a snowball's chance in hell, myself.

Trump just wants the damned wall... but the 'Freedom Caucus', along with most other Republicans, even the moderates, won't be able to live with the political fallout.

Osborne Russell
01-26-2018, 12:04 PM
Of course, the $25 BILLION for a really dumb and useless wall... an amount which is nearly half as much as Trump proposes for an increase in military funding... is truly offensive... as is the 'merit based' proposal, and reduction of immigration, which is, at it's heart, essentially racist.

The question, then, is... in the spirit of compromise, which is the grease that makes government function.....

Is it worth it?

$25 billion, plus your credibility, your conscience, your honor . . . no.

Figment
01-26-2018, 12:06 PM
Billion, with a B.
and I don't buy the trickle-down rationale for a minute.

S.V. Airlie
01-26-2018, 12:07 PM
I wonder what the over/under is, on the likelihood of a deal like this ever going through.... I'd give it a snowball's chance in hell, myself.

Trump just wants the damned wall... but the 'Freedom Caucus', along with most other Republicans, even the moderates, won't be able to live with the political fallout.Maybe the Sen.but, that's it! Ryan would appose it.

Mike H
01-27-2018, 07:05 AM
25B for a wall isn't a compromise, it's caving. 12.5B for the wall matching Mexico's 12.5B would be a compromise. After all Trump promised that Mexico would pay for the wall.:D

L.W. Baxter
01-27-2018, 07:17 AM
Grab it, I say.

25 billion is peanuts, and the wall is an albatross around Trumps neck, anyway.

And all the other anti immigrant measures are reversible.

The need to treat these young folks like human beings is our most pressing concern. Do it now!

Reynard38
01-27-2018, 08:13 AM
Trumps base and the hard line Repub senators can’t stand allowing one DACA recipient to stay. 1.8 million will have them turning on Donny in a second.
I’d rather help those that were brought here as kids. If it means tighter restrictions on future immigration that’s a trade off that should be made.
The wall will be a millstone to hang around trump’s neck. Useful in 2020.

Chris Smith porter maine
01-27-2018, 08:58 AM
Ok so we take the deal, what about the other 10 million illegal immigrants in the country.

Reynard38
01-27-2018, 10:26 AM
Ok so we take the deal, what about the other 10 million illegal immigrants in the country.

So what’s thier status now? They are illegal. That won’t change. Are you proposing amnesty for ten million as part of this deal?
What are you willing to give up to achieve this? It’ll be pretty substantial. That’s how negotiations work.

Chris Smith porter maine
01-27-2018, 10:40 AM
25 billion to solve 15-20% of the problem seems kinda lame, part of the wall deal needs to be very serious penalties up to and including jail time for those who employ illegals. If they can't work they will go elsewhere, let's fix it this time.

S.V. Airlie
01-27-2018, 10:57 AM
Funny, no money mentioned for Harvey in TX and two hurricanes in FLA. and P. Rico?

Reynard38
01-27-2018, 11:11 AM
25 billion to solve 15-20% of the problem seems kinda lame, part of the wall deal needs to be very serious penalties up to and including jail time for those who employ illegals. If they can't work they will go elsewhere, let's fix it this time.

Jailing those that employ illegals would be, far and away, the most effective form of immigration control. Won’t ever happen though. Repubs won’t put their donors in jail.
Instead of a wall I’d like to see border security taken over by the US military. Bring all those assets home from playing world cop. Close the foreign bases. Use eminent domain to buy up land along the border and station troops and assets along it. We’d probably save $$ and have much more effective control than a 40’ wall would provide.

amish rob
01-27-2018, 11:15 AM
Imagine thereís no countries
It isnít hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too

Imagine all the people living life in peace...

Peace,
Dreamer

Ted Hoppe
01-27-2018, 11:18 AM
Isn't the elephant in the room the issues of chain migration. Once the dreamers become are citizens the deserve to receive - Their entire family could come across as a result. 1.8 million can blossom into 35m over the next 10 years due to this ruling.

while it may be true that these dreamers are productive individuals - thier parents and grandparents and other rations could put a burden on individual states. As of now California alone has a budget of 10 billion dollars a year that goes to welfare. The dreamers families may push those numbers higher as states like CA are going to deal with the chain.

Reynard38
01-27-2018, 11:23 AM
Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too

Imagine all the people living life in peace...

Peace,
Dreamer

Nice idea. Kinda like a maintenance free wooden boat. Might work for a a bit.

Peerie Maa
01-27-2018, 11:33 AM
Isn't the elephant in the room the issues of chain migration. Once the dreamers become are citizens the deserve to receive - Their entire family could come across as a result. 1.8 million can blossom into 35m over the next 10 years due to this ruling.

while it may be true that these dreamers are productive individuals - thier parents and grandparents and other rations could put a burden on individual states. As of now California alone has a budget of 10 billion dollars a year that goes to welfare. The dreamers families may push those numbers higher as states like CA are going to deal with the chain.

What families? Did they come to the US as unescorted minors? I doubt that, so their families will already be there.

Ted Hoppe
01-27-2018, 11:37 AM
What families? Did they come to the US as unescorted minors? I doubt that, so their families will already be there.

Not true. As we know from many latinos from south of the border - it is not uncommon to have many half sisters and brothers. They could be sponsored. Grandparents and others too. Once the dreamer becomes a citizen - petitioning for relatives to join them is easy regardless of what lawyers and immigration advocates say.

on a recent case that I personally worked on where there was multiple young 15-18 year old Indian women who came here to work underthe auspices of being domestics and provide child care for extended families. 6 women came. The sponsor instead made them work at his numerous Indian restaurants and motels/hotels. These women were found to be victims of rape by the owner. The raper went to prison. Each woman was paid 5,000,0000 dollars. A year later these women claimed they could not return to India due to fear of death threats and now were over 20 claimed asylum. They were granted it as well as citizenship. Last thing I heard is they have 120 relatives here in the USA that they sponsored as well as large land holdings in the towns they lived in as children. Thier great grandparents and grand parents now have medicare and receive living and housing assistance from the state.

amish rob
01-27-2018, 11:37 AM
Nice idea. Kinda like a maintenance free wooden boat. Might work for a a bit.

It isn’t all like a maintenance free boat.

It simply requires all people to see others as equals.

Which, I understand is an impossibility.

Still, there are those of us content to be stupid and naive, and continue to work in hopes the World we leave our children will actually be better, not just better for our own kids.

Peace,
Human First

S.V. Airlie
01-27-2018, 11:38 AM
What families? Did they come to the US as unescorted minors? I doubt that, so their families will already be there.They act more American than some of the home grown one's do. I suspect their friends are more likely US citizens outside the immediate family they came here with.

amish rob
01-27-2018, 11:40 AM
Not true. As we know from many latinos from south of the border - it is not uncommon to have many half sisters and brothers. They could be sponsored. Grandparents and others too. Once the dreamer becomes a citizen - petitioning for relatives to join them is easy regardless of what lawyers and immigration advocates say.

It isn't that easy, Dude. You come visit, weíll go talk to Ernesto, eh? It isnít like the hype on the news, I promise.

Peace,
Robert

Ted Hoppe
01-27-2018, 11:58 AM
It isn't that easy, Dude. You come visit, we’ll go talk to Ernesto, eh? It isn’t like the hype on the news, I promise.

Peace,
Robert

I have several Mexican relatives - my wife's brothers in laws including his illegal/legal wife. They pay and play lots of immigration related stuff. Many fall under dreamers name. My nephew who came here when he was 5 now 32 is married to a woman they paid a coyote to bring across 8 years ago. Now she has her - 6 brothers and sisters and thier children with them. Each one sponsored by the family. They figure if it isn't legal right now - they have time to wait it out. They earn money here and many have bought property in Mexico in the peublos they are from. Thier children travel back and forth between the counties - they are the next generation of dreamers. Children with feet in both countries.

S.V. Airlie
01-27-2018, 12:03 PM
I decided to C&P this, please note, Citizenship was not offered or required when immigrants came through Ellis Island. In it's hay day, 12,000 immigrants passed through it every day (1906) Now, look how many immigrants arrived until it closes. Theoretically, they should have gone to get citizenship elsewhere after they landed and left Ellis Island. There were no standardized tests until about 1930 and judges, if an immigrant went to one used his own questions to make them a citizen. I would be interested to know, at least until tests were formalized, how many bothered with getting their citizenship? I mean, who was keeping track.Many here, although my ancestors weren't came here, just being here, and their kids being born here were citizens I guess. I just think it's ironic that so many here complain about immigration now but, can't necessarily prove their ancestors on the boat before say 1920 were. Ellis Island Didn't provide citizenships.

Ellis stayed open until 1954. Over all that time, approximately twelve million immigrants passed through the island. At the peak of immigration in 1907, almost 12,000 immigrants came each day. Many that traveled to America were from Europe, including countries such as Russia, Italy, Germany, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Denmark and Armenia. After 1917, checks for health issues, literacy and money became mandatory. Most first and second class passengers were able to be checked on the boats. It was believed that anyone who had enough money to buy a higher class ticket was least likely to cause trouble later. The third class passengers, sometimes referred to as steerage were taken to Ellis Island. Before arriving there, they were split up by people called groupers into different groups; first by boat, then into women and children, and men, and then into smaller groups of about thirty or so. Immigrants were given boarding cards that they later showed to Ellis Island officials.

Once they came to Ellis, they were inspected for any kind of illnesses. Inspectors looked at everything including their heads and eyes and were even watched for signs of limping. If anyone found anything wrong, they marked on their clothes with chalk in order to alert someone else later on. Here is a list of some of the codes they used when using the chalk.
H= Heart
L= Lameness
X= Suspected Mental Illness
EX: Examine Farther
Ct: Trachoma

Then they were checked off by inspectors from ship manifests and asked questions by officials. They had to have at least $20 and, after 1917, they had to read a passage in their own language. In all, most immigrants stayed on the island for about 3-5 hours if they passed all of their inspections.

Those that did not pass were required to stay on the island or return to their home country. Most families decided to stay together on the island and wait for their family member to be healthy again, even though some were not allowed to have visitors. A few kids were even there so long that they attended classes held on the island.

WORKERS:
In order to keep things running smoothly, there were lots of workers. Groupers (people that put immigrants into different groups based on gender, boat, ect.), doctors, inspectors, cooks, maids, dock workers, special inquiry jobs, nurses, administrators, social workers, teachers, interpreters and more. People that could be needed at any time, such as doctors and nurses, lived on the island, sometimes with their families. There were also many volunteers that came to help with or welcome the immigrants.

Ted Hoppe
01-27-2018, 12:20 PM
Angel Island (Ellis Island of the West) here in San Francisco was different. Over 300,000 went through the gates from 70 different countries. A few were detained for years in solitary confinement. Hundreds of Chinese and Japanese immigrants committed suicide due to the conditions only later then they were rejected and sentenced to be taken back home. It closed in 1940.

http://images.slideplayer.com/32/9845406/slides/slide_2.jpg

amish rob
01-27-2018, 12:26 PM
Well, there was also the BAN on Chinese immigrants, and then we rounded up all the Japanese people for a while, too.

Peace,
Robert

P.S. My friendís parents went to their graves still reeling from the internment camps they spent time in as kids.

S.V. Airlie
01-27-2018, 12:30 PM
Not surprised by this considering those reaching here were probably mostly Chinese. My point is, Ellis Island was an inspection site, did not mess with citizenship at all. It was checking to see if they were healthy enough to enter the country. I bet most never thought about taking tests to become citizens, probably never crossed their minds, just headed west to a new life somewhere in the far or mid west, got married and had children who would automatically be citizens.First class may have sought citizenship but, not those say in 2nd class or even steerage.

amish rob
01-27-2018, 12:33 PM
Not surprised by this considering those reaching here were probably mostly Chinese. My point is, Ellis Island was an inspection site, did not mess with citizenship at all. It was checking to see if they were healthy enough to enter the country. I bet most never thought about taking tests to become citizens, probably never crossed their minds, just headed west to a new life somewhere in the far or mid west, got married and had children who would automatically be citizens.

Yeah, but this country NEEDED disposable bodies to grease the wheels of commerce, then. We donít need waves of bodies to burn up anymore.

Peace,
Robert

S.V. Airlie
01-27-2018, 12:35 PM
Yeah, but this country NEEDED disposable bodies to grease the wheels of commerce, then. We don’t need waves of bodies to burn up anymore.

Peace,
RobertOnly those businesses in agriculture!

amish rob
01-27-2018, 12:39 PM
Only those businesses in agriculture!
Hey, youíre catching on.

What big ag really wants is to go all the way back to free labor. ;)

Peace,
Robert

S.V. Airlie
01-27-2018, 12:46 PM
Hey, you’re catching on.

What big ag really wants is to go all the way back to free labor. ;)

Peace,
RobertRob, do you really think this was the first time I posted this? I caught on yrs ago.

Reynard38
01-27-2018, 12:48 PM
It isn’t all like a maintenance free boat.

It simply requires all people to see others as equals.



I for one do not see all people as equals. Those white supremicists that marched in Charlottesville are not my equal. ISIS are not my equal. Roy Moore is not my equal.
Races, colors, yes. But people, no.
I do not want unfettered immigration to this country. There needs to be a filter, and then a method of monitoring new arrivals for a period of time to make certain they are capable of living in peace with thier new neighbors.
Weve got more than enough crazy in this country. We don’t need to add to it.

S.V. Airlie
01-27-2018, 12:52 PM
I for one do not see all people as equals. Those white supremicists that marched in Charlottesville are not my equal. ISIS are not my equal. Roy Moore is not my equal.
Races, colors, yes. But people, no.
I do not want unfettered immigration to this country. There needs to be a filter, and then a method of monitoring new arrivals for a period of time to make certain they are capable of living in peace with thier new neighbors.
Weve got more than enough crazy in this country. We don’t need to add to it.And Trump wants white, educated, Christian preferably Evangelical ( gotta give a bone to his constituents) and speak English better than his supporters. ( Oh wait, come to think of it, that stipulation wouldn't be too hard! )

amish rob
01-27-2018, 12:57 PM
I for one do not see all people as equals. Those white supremicists that marched in Charlottesville are not my equal. ISIS are not my equal. Roy Moore is not my equal.
Races, colors, yes. But people, no.
I do not want unfettered immigration to this country. There needs to be a filter, and then a method of monitoring new arrivals for a period of time to make certain they are capable of living in peace with thier new neighbors.
Weve got more than enough crazy in this country. We donít need to add to it.

I donít believe I ever advocated unfettered immigration, nor any immigration at all, in fact.
The answer to ending all immigration is to raise the standard of all people, worldwide. To do that, though, would require a small number of people to drastically lower the standards they are used to living by.
These are not things the average citizen can do alone, nor affect alone. Most people are simply stuck in the middle. Perhaps, though, majorities of citizens acting worldwide could change the tenor of the governments representing them?

A first step would be recognizing the equality of all people, free of moral evaluation, but religions preclude people from doing so.

Peace,
Robert

John Smith
01-27-2018, 12:58 PM
In all the discussions earlier until the government took a 3 day vacation, Trump was asking 18 billion for the wall, now it's up to 25 billion first issue. The second is, it's allowing for more billions spent down the road. And, there is no set time for DACA kids to get citizenship. It's like the cartoon in most car mechanic's shops; You want it when? As to 90% reduction in immigration leaving 10% and merit based I'm against. Trump's mother wouldn't pass Trump's smell test although she was white!

The answer to any monetary request should be, "Mexico is paying. Why ask us?"

Peerie Maa
01-27-2018, 12:59 PM
Not true. As we know from many latinos from south of the border - it is not uncommon to have many half sisters and brothers. They could be sponsored. Grandparents and others too. Once the dreamer becomes a citizen - petitioning for relatives to join them is easy regardless of what lawyers and immigration advocates say.

on a recent case that I personally worked on where there was multiple young 15-18 year old Indian women who came here to work underthe auspices of being domestics and provide child care for extended families. 6 women came. The sponsor instead made them work at his numerous Indian restaurants and motels/hotels. These women were found to be victims of rape by the owner. The raper went to prison. Each woman was paid 5,000,0000 dollars. A year later these women claimed they could not return to India due to fear of death threats and now were over 20 claimed asylum. They were granted it as well as citizenship. Last thing I heard is they have 120 relatives here in the USA that they sponsored as well as large land holdings in the towns they lived in as children. Thier great grandparents and grand parents now have medicare and receive living and housing assistance from the state.

Sounds like they were hard-working citizens contributing to the economy if they could afford to achieve that. They seem to have jumped through the legal hoops to bring people in, so what is your problem?

amish rob
01-27-2018, 12:59 PM
Rob, do you really think this was the first time I posted this? I caught on yrs ago.

Well, the abbreviations and wording sometimes make your posts hard for me to read, but no. Just a silly device to help elucidate a point we seemed to be jointly making.

Peace,
Robert

John Smith
01-27-2018, 12:59 PM
Maybe the Sen.but, that's it! Ryan would appose it.

NOTHING positive on immigration will get a vote in the house.

John Smith
01-27-2018, 01:01 PM
So whatís thier status now? They are illegal. That wonít change. Are you proposing amnesty for ten million as part of this deal?
What are you willing to give up to achieve this? Itíll be pretty substantial. Thatís how negotiations work.

I would propose enforcing the laws against hiring illegals. I suspect that would do more good than a wall.

S.V. Airlie
01-27-2018, 01:04 PM
I would propose enforcing the laws against hiring illegals. I suspect that would do more good than a wall.And I suspect it will never happen.

Reynard38
01-27-2018, 01:06 PM
To do that, though, would require a small number of people to drastically lower the standards they are used to living by.


Ok, I’ll bite. Who are you proposing should give up their standard of living?
As a point of reference I looked this up.

But the global average is about a fifth of that. So by global standards, America's middle class is also really, really rich. To make it into the richest 1 percent globally, all you need is an income of around $34,000, according to World Bank economist Branko Milanovic.Feb 27, 2012

amish rob
01-27-2018, 01:25 PM
Ok, Iíll bite. Who are you proposing should give up their standard of living?
As a point of reference I looked this up.

But the global average is about a fifth of that. So by global standards, America's middle class is also really, really rich. To make it into the richest 1 percent globally, all you need is an income of around $34,000, according to World Bank economist Branko Milanovic.Feb 27, 2012

How about a specific, small scale example, and then a big picture one?

My good friend is a combat veteran with a clustered up Purple Heart. Heís deaf and limps. He is a custodian at the VA. All he does there is prevent the spread of disease via germs. And gets paid squat.
His second job, to make ends meet, is building fences. His wife also works.

I know one of the administrators at same VA. He owns a big mahogany powerboat and an airplane. Iíve seen them both.

But, globally is what I meant. I was not excluding myself from the haves, though by the standards of this country Iím poor. I meant that I have friends who literally lived in dumps before escaping to here.
Or lived in authoritarian regimes where pursuit of happiness was nonexistent.
Nobody should have to live like that, and countries and borders and flags help those things happen, I think.

I donít have an answer, because Iím dumb, and sappy. But I know I willingly give up things, so that others may have.

Honestly, in fact, Iíve been thinking a LOT lately about the resources I waste with this boat hobby. I wonder how much better the world would be had I used all that time and those resources to help others (instead of just some of it). Not measurably, I know.
And, so, if none of us can make a difference, why should any of us try?

Or, maybe, if we all really tried, we could make a difference? I donít know. I just know my peephole could have as easily winked open in Eritrea as here.

Peace,
Out Of My Depth, And Showing My True Naiive Silliness

S.V. Airlie
01-27-2018, 01:36 PM
How about a specific, small scale example, and then a big picture one?

My good friend is a combat veteran with a clustered up Purple Heart. He’s deaf and limps. He is a custodian at the VA. All he does there is prevent the spread of disease via germs. And gets paid squat.
His second job, to make ends meet, is building fences. His wife also works.

I know one of the administrators at same VA. He owns a big mahogany powerboat and an airplane. I’ve seen them both.

But, globally is what I meant. I was not excluding myself from the haves, though by the standards of this country I’m poor. I meant that I have friends who literally lived in dumps before escaping to here.
Or lived in authoritarian regimes where pursuit of happiness was nonexistent.
Nobody should have to live like that, and countries and borders and flags help those things happen, I think.

I don’t have an answer, because I’m dumb, and sappy. But I know I willingly give up things, so that others may have.

Honestly, in fact, I’ve been thinking a LOT lately about the resources I waste with this boat hobby. I wonder how much better the world would be had I used all that time and those resources to help others (instead of just some of it). Not measurably, I know.
And, so, if none of us can make a difference, why should any of us try?

Or, maybe, if we all really tried, we could make a difference? I don’t know. I just know my peephole could have as easily winked open in Eritrea as here.

Peace,
Out Of My Depth, And Showing My True Naiive SillinessWhat were his academic qualifications? Sadly an education plays a part more often than not as to what kind of job you can get Robert! It's getting to the point that even a college degree doesn't get you far anymore, you need a masters or higher.

And yes, I know people through hard work, were self taught that manage to achieve far more than his faith grade education should have allowed. My example, a man left school during the depression to take care of his family. He loved Entomology with a passion, read everything on the subject. He learned the Identification, habits, biology you name it. He identified 6 species never seen before. Great but, he went further, to be accepted as new species, everything had to be written in Latin, he learned latin. Outcome, he was or became a renown entomologist who everyone respected.

amish rob
01-27-2018, 01:48 PM
What were his academic qualifications? Sadly an education plays a part more often than not as to what kind of job you can get Robert! It's getting to the point that even a college degree doesn't get you far anymore, you need a masters or higher.

And yes, I know people through hard work, were self taught that manage to achieve far more than his faith grade education should have allowed. My example, a man left school during the depression to take care of his family. He loved Entomology with a passion, read everything on the subject. He learned the Identification, habits, biology you name it. He identified 6 species never seen before. Great but, he went further, to be accepted as new species, everything had to be written in Latin, he learned latin. Outcome, he was or became a renown entomologist who everyone respected.

His ACADEMIC QUALIFICATIONS?!
He had part of his head blown away and lost partial use of his legs (you should SEE the scars), in the service of this countryís military, in an absolute bull crap and invented war. Did you miss the clustered up Purple Heart bit? He gave his youth, and the rest of his adult life to this county. He lives in constant pain and silence, which is only partially ameliorated by his hearing aids. Do you watch the news with closed caption on?

Now, he gets to clean up after others, which is really about the only type entry level job an infantryman is qualified for, besides killing fools, and gets compensated so poorly he needs another job. College ainít gonna work for him, now, and wasnít an option before because of cost. The military was sold to him as a great career choice, which it was, until he was no longer fit to serve.

Because, a custodian is valueless in a place that needs to be clean, eh?

Peace,
Robert

S.V. Airlie
01-27-2018, 01:55 PM
His ACADEMIC QUALIFICATIONS?!
He had part of his head blown away and lost partial use of his legs (you should SEE the scars), in the service of this country’s military, in an absolute bull crap and invented war. Did you miss the clustered up Purple Heart bit? He gave his youth, and the rest of his adult life to this county. He lives in constant pain and silence, which is only partially ameliorated by his hearing aids. Do you watch the news with closed caption on?

Now, he gets to clean up after others, which is really about the only type entry level job an infantryman is qualified for, besides killing fools, and gets compensated so poorly he needs another job. College ain’t gonna work for him, now, and wasn’t an option before because of cost. The military was sold to him as a great career choice, which it was, until he was no longer fit to serve.

Because, a custodian is valueless in a place that needs to be clean, eh?

Peace,
RobertFirstly, you failed to mention that Robert! I suppose I was supposed to guess! Secondly, it looks more like a situation where people, not just him, make the equiv. minimum wage. Maybe you should try Congress to raise it. Not that they will!

Canoeyawl
01-27-2018, 01:58 PM
It is about $14K/immigrant. Is that a fair price? I think I would pay that much to stay in this country. So I guess I would pay that amount to let others stay.

Great news, you will contribute the 25 billion then?

amish rob
01-27-2018, 02:05 PM
Firstly, you failed to mention that Robert! I suppose I was supposed to guess! Secondly, it looks more like a situation where people, not just him, make the equiv. minimum wage. Maybe you should try Congress to raise it. Not that they will!

It seems you donít read carefully, then. The post you originally quoted me in clearly states he is a combat vet with a clustered Purple Heart.
It is the second line I wrote, first line of second paragraph.


Peace,
Robert

S.V. Airlie
01-27-2018, 02:07 PM
It seems you don’t read carefully, then. The post you originally quoted me in clearly states he is a combat vet with a clustered Purple Heart.
It is the second line I wrote, first line of second paragraph.


Peace,
RobertSorry Robert you said he was deaf and limps!

Osborne Russell
01-27-2018, 02:08 PM
I donít have an answer, because Iím dumb, and sappy. But I know I willingly give up things, so that others may have.

There's you, and there's the one who benefits from your sacrifice. If that were all there were to it, all that would need doing is equalizing between you.

There's a third who gains by exploiting you both.

Reynard38
01-27-2018, 02:12 PM
How about a specific, small scale example, and then a big picture one?

My good friend is a combat veteran with a clustered up Purple Heart. He’s deaf and limps. He is a custodian at the VA. All he does there is prevent the spread of disease via germs. And gets paid squat.
His second job, to make ends meet, is building fences. His wife also works.

I know one of the administrators at same VA. He owns a big mahogany powerboat and an airplane. I’ve seen them both.

But, globally is what I meant. I was not excluding myself from the haves, though by the standards of this country I’m poor. I meant that I have friends who literally lived in dumps before escaping to here.
Or lived in authoritarian regimes where pursuit of happiness was nonexistent.
Nobody should have to live like that, and countries and borders and flags help those things happen, I think.

I don’t have an answer, because I’m dumb, and sappy. But I know I willingly give up things, so that others may have.

Honestly, in fact, I’ve been thinking a LOT lately about the resources I waste with this boat hobby. I wonder how much better the world would be had I used all that time and those resources to help others (instead of just some of it). Not measurably, I know.
And, so, if none of us can make a difference, why should any of us try?

Or, maybe, if we all really tried, we could make a difference? I don’t know. I just know my peephole could have as easily winked open in Eritrea as here.

Peace,
Out Of My Depth, And Showing My True Naiive Silliness

And sports figures make more than either of them. A lot more. Doesn’t make a lot of sense either.
Rob I’d be the first one to commend you should you decide to sell your boats and donate the proceeds to help others. A noble choice to be sure. But as I see things you already help dogs live a better life, and from many of your previous posts it’s obvious you care greatly for them. If some of your compensation goes to enjoyment on the water I’d hardly see that as a waste. But that’s just my opinion.
Either way it’s a choice, and you’ve got the ability to make it living where you do. I would not want a government to make that decision for me. Or to use another Beatles lyric;

“But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain’t gonna make it with anyone anyhow”

amish rob
01-27-2018, 02:51 PM
And sports figures make more than either of them. A lot more. Doesnít make a lot of sense either.
Rob Iíd be the first one to commend you should you decide to sell your boats and donate the proceeds to help others. A noble choice to be sure. But as I see things you already help dogs live a better life, and from many of your previous posts itís obvious you care greatly for them. If some of your compensation goes to enjoyment on the water Iíd hardly see that as a waste. But thatís just my opinion.
Either way itís a choice, and youíve got the ability to make it living where you do. I would not want a government to make that decision for me. Or to use another Beatles lyric;

ďBut if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ainít gonna make it with anyone anyhowĒ


Sports figures. Yeah. And the cats that pay them. :)

I am not really as hippy dippy as I seem. I abhor thieves and lazy people as much as bullies, but I also understand people are what they are. I am not an advocate for all people, though, which surprises many. Some people prove themselves sub-human with their actions, and I rail against them as I am able.
I only try and treat everyone the same, and hope one day we may all change enough that we can be all the same. Which doesnít mean everyone is totally equal in all ways, which is silly.

I suppose much of it comes from my belief we are all trapped here, and the most we can hope for is to find joy and love. All the jets and yachts and mansions in the world donít change the fact we all die, and all our lives are as hollow as anything, in the end.

So much focus on things and stuff, and yet people, fellow human beings, are discussed as if they were commodities.

I certainly donít mean to impugn anyone here, or anyone, really, but simply to observe what I believe will help change the world for the better of all people. How to implement the change is, obviously, beyond such a simple man as myself.

Peace,
Robert

P.S. Just the one dog. Iíve loved more than a few, but only care for the one, now.
People, too, though. I feed, clothe, and shelter people regularly. All the bums in my neighborhood know me by name. Some dislike the way I harass them to contribute to their own well being. :)

Oh, and Iím pretty sure I couldnít sell any of my boats. Theyíre pretty rough and junky, eh.

bobbys
01-27-2018, 04:33 PM
Imagine thereís no countries
It isnít hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too

Imagine all the people living life in peace...

Peace,
Dreamer.

I like john lennon but its a fact he was a aų◊< hole.

Chris Smith porter maine
01-27-2018, 05:08 PM
The Democrats should propose something like this and tie it to Trump's wall.

First time caught employing illegals $2,500 fine per head.

Second time employing illegals $10,000 fine per head.

Third time employing illegals minimum $10,000 fine per head and a year in jail.

Problem goes away. If Trump and the Republicans can't support this the Democrats need to let his base know.

amish rob
01-27-2018, 05:12 PM
.

I like john lennon but its a fact he was a aų◊< hole.

I know a few of those types, bobbys, and I still love, and even like them. ;)

Peace,
I Donít Like The Beatles, Nor John Lennon, At All, Actually
But True Words Are True Words

bobbys
01-27-2018, 05:15 PM
Trump should grant ammnesty to the daca and dreamers and in return get the wall.

The base will be a bit sore but the reps will get votes.

Lets face the facts.

If trump gives the demswill be cut off at the knees for the mid terms.

Dems...out... hispanic voters for reps. , dems will be building the wall once they can get no cred..

Trump..... genius.......

Chris Smith porter maine
01-27-2018, 05:28 PM
Trump should grant ammnesty to the daca and dreamers and in return get the wall.

The base will be a bit sore but the reps will get votes.

Lets face the facts.

If trump gives the demswill be cut off at the knees for the mid terms.

Dems...out... hispanic voters for reps. , dems will be building the wall once they can get no cred..

Trump..... genius.......

The Democrats should force a bit more fines and prison time for those who employ illegals, I don't care if it's mowing the lawn or butchering pigs in a slaughter house, no work no problem.

bobbys
01-27-2018, 08:21 PM
The Democrats should force a bit more fines and prison time for those who employ illegals, I don't care if it's mowing the lawn or butchering pigs in a slaughter house, no work no problem.
.

That makes sense to me.

S.V. Airlie
01-27-2018, 08:28 PM
.

That makes sense to me.Republicans would scream bloody murder! Did ICE arrest any owners when they raided some businesses last week, nope!

Ted Hoppe
01-27-2018, 08:35 PM
The Democrats should force a bit more fines and prison time for those who employ illegals, I don't care if it's mowing the lawn or butchering pigs in a slaughter house, no work no problem.
That is the solution. But the countrys economics is based on oppression of a work force, discrimination and suppression of wages which is why the wall will not be built and those who hire illegals will prosper with malice.

Daniel Noyes
01-27-2018, 09:36 PM
In all the discussions earlier until the government took a 3 day vacation, Trump was asking 18 billion for the wall, now it's up to 25 billion first issue. The second is, it's allowing for more billions spent down the road. And, there is no set time for DACA kids to get citizenship. It's like the cartoon in most car mechanic's shops; You want it when? As to 90% reduction in immigration leaving 10% and merit based I'm against. Trump's mother wouldn't pass Trump's smell test although she was white!

... Next time Trumpy demands money for the Wall in exchange for DACA the Wall will be 30 billion! :D

Dems should have taken the deal when they had the chance ... what a bargain!

LeeG
01-27-2018, 09:48 PM
... Next time Trumpy demands money for the Wall in exchange for DACA the Wall will be 30 billion! :D

Dems should have taken the deal when they had the chance ... what a bargain!

and you’re paying for it!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iYZKrn7Bbl8

George Jung
01-27-2018, 09:58 PM
The Democrats should propose something like this and tie it to Trump's wall.

First time caught employing illegals $2,500 fine per head.

Second time employing illegals $10,000 fine per head.

Third time employing illegals minimum $10,000 fine per head and a year in jail.

Problem goes away. If Trump and the Republicans can't support this the Democrats need to let his base know.

that law already exists- but the Republicans won’t allow it to be enforced. Besides, the Wall appeals to trumpsters- and you can see it from space!

Daniel Noyes
01-27-2018, 10:02 PM
that law already exists- but the Republicans won’t allow it to be enforced. Besides, the Wall appeals to trumpsters- and you can see it from space!

Soooo not true.

GW was the last President to enforce these laws in a major way and recieved viscious push back from the Business Community...?

Romney proposed enforcement during the election and was decried by Democrats.

George Jung
01-27-2018, 10:14 PM
Wrong- but at this point, immaterial; Rips own all branches of govt. enforce the law. Walk, don’t talk.

Chris Smith porter maine
01-28-2018, 09:11 AM
... Next time Trumpy demands money for the Wall in exchange for DACA the Wall will be 30 billion! :D

Dems should have taken the deal when they had the chance ... what a bargain!

Umm dude, Trump acted like Jell-O and pulled out not the Democrats.

McMike
01-28-2018, 09:51 AM
Grab it, I say.

25 billion is peanuts, and the wall is an albatross around Trumps neck, anyway.

And all the other anti immigrant measures are reversible.

The need to treat these young folks like human beings is our most pressing concern. Do it now!

This^