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Ted Hoppe
12-23-2017, 12:11 PM
Considering how people are. How most men are in the workplace. yeah, I know about diversity, about glass ceilings, equal pay and many other modern turns which has brought dramatic changes to our society. We can agree that tribalism is often seen as an asset when it comes to productivity, trimming costs, protecting ones regious beliefs and promoting ethic prosperity in our diverse economy.

If we set aside the social engineering aspects and calls for diversity in the workplace (which by the way is a fictious construct based on personal preferences and intertribal promotions), why would a business with predominately male leadership hire a woman for any job when an equally capable man can fill the job when the issues of harassment and abuse seem to so pervasive and challenging to the very nature of human interaction?

McMike
12-23-2017, 12:14 PM
interesting question.

Peerie Maa
12-23-2017, 12:18 PM
interesting question.

Seems to boil down to should men be allowed to continue to be aerosols or not and should households be obliged to live on one income, whilst widows and divorcees and their children have to rely on welfare?

SKIP KILPATRICK
12-23-2017, 12:19 PM
I think it’s a non issue for the company I work for. But maybe we do diversity better than most!

McMike
12-23-2017, 12:21 PM
Seems to boil down to should men be allowed to continue to be aerosols or not and should households be obliged to live on one income, whilst widows and divorcees and their children have to rely on welfare?

Yes it does. But the reality is that most people are stupid and act on emotion without considering the greater impact of their own social and emotional patterns. The question is about reality, not the purity of an idea of how things should be.

David G
12-23-2017, 12:23 PM
Because there is no legitimate moral justification for treating one gender differently in all but a very small number of circumstances/issues?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-23-2017, 12:25 PM
They're much cheaper to hire than to buy.

Peerie Maa
12-23-2017, 12:29 PM
I think it’s a non issue for the company I work for. But maybe we do diversity better than most!


Yes it does. But the reality is that most people are stupid and act on emotion without considering the greater impact of their own social and emotional patterns. The question is about reality, not the purity of an idea of how things should be.

My ex employer BAE Systems were pretty good at it as well.

Advancing Diversity & Inclusion at BAE Systems We believe that our employees contribute their best work when they feel heard, when they can apply their strengths, and when they feel included as part of a larger vision. That’s why, as part of our journey to become a great workplace, we are committed to hiring, developing, and retaining a diverse workforce that can thrive in an inclusive work environment. In fact, we have a dedicated, employee-led Multicultural Network that embodies this mission by educating, engaging, and empowering our workforce to get involved in employee resource groups (http://www.baesystems.com/en-us/careers/life-at-bae-systems/diversity) (ERGs), networking events, programs, and activities that align to our company’s goals and objectives. Under this network, ERGs represent various diversity dimensions, such as Women, Black/African Americans, Hispanic/Latino, LGBTQ and Allies, Generations, Veterans, and people with disabilities. All ERGs have a shared goal of expanding understanding and cultural competence, and guiding our journey to greater inclusivity.

Ted Hoppe
12-23-2017, 12:39 PM
My ex employer BAE Systems were pretty good at it as well.

what a load of crap that was. There are anomalies but for most of the top leadership I met at BEA - it was not what I saw.

BEA were very good at hiring cheap Asian labor (in a form of ethic tribalism and cheaper immigrant labor) when it suited them. That particular mission statement does not fit with thier practice nor does it fit any other tech company, larger service company or hundreds of thousands of government jobs.

Japanese companies keep Japanese men on top. Chinese companies keep Chinese (mostly men) on top. Tratidional tech companies keep mostly white men on top. Indian tech companies keep Indians as managers and majority of employees Indian. The numerous Israeli based multinationals keep mostly Jewish male leadership on top. The clerical, warehouse and factory work can be as diverse as possible because the wages, conditions and mission statement are one in the same cheap, competing and productive.

Reynard38
12-23-2017, 12:47 PM
Maybe because it's the right thing to do? If you aren't an A hole there's nothing to worry about.
We've been hiring an increasing number of female pilots, and it hasn't been a problem. Most of the current generation of male pilots are smart enough to know how to act. The old WW2 and Vietnam era guys often didn't, but fortunately they are long gone.

McMike
12-23-2017, 12:50 PM
Small businesses make up how much of the employment in this country? 60%? They are the ones that will mark the evolution of our society from the good ol boys network to true equality. I give it another 10 years before they catch up.

Peerie Maa
12-23-2017, 12:56 PM
what a load of crap that was. There are anomalies but for most of the top leadership I met at BEA - it was not what I saw.

BEA were very good at hiring cheap Asian labor (in a form of ethic tribalism and cheaper immigrant labor) when it suited them. That particular mission statement does not fit with thier practice nor does it fit any other tech company, larger service company or hundreds of thousands of government jobs.

Japanese companies keep Japanese men on top. Chinese companies keep Chinese (mostly men) on top. Tratidional tech companies keep mostly white men on top. Indian tech companies keep Indians as managers and majority of employees Indian. The numerous Israeli based multinationals keep mostly Jewish male leadership on top. The clerical, warehouse and factory work can be as diverse as possible because the wages, conditions and mission statement are one in the same cheap, competing and productive.

I'll assume that you are having trouble with dyslexia;), and simply ask when did you last work for a BAE company?
What were the cheap Asian labour hired to do?

Durnik
12-23-2017, 12:57 PM
Because there is no legitimate moral justification for treating one gender differently in all bust a very small number of circumstances/issues?

Freudian? (when you say one thing, but mean your mother..)

The biology of hormonal attraction will go away when animals (incl us) are extinct. We can, however, learn to be nice.. getting rid of religion (which expects its adherents to blindly hold irrational beliefs - or follow often irrational 'rules') would be a good start.

George Jung
12-23-2017, 01:02 PM
Personally, I’m thankful for diversity. I’m the only male practitioner in my clinic. And yes, there is some harassment, but the women are getting better about it, and I’m okay with it.

David G
12-23-2017, 01:04 PM
Freudian? (when you say one thing, but mean your mother..)

The biology of hormonal attraction will go away when animals (incl us) are extinct. We can, however, learn to be nice.. getting rid of religion (which expects its adherents to blindly hold irrational beliefs - or follow often irrational 'rules') would be a good start.

We'll probably never know. Clumsy fingers... or Freudian slip (or, perhaps, bustier?). <G>

StevenBauer
12-23-2017, 01:08 PM
Shouldn’t the question be why hire men?

Keith Wilson
12-23-2017, 01:11 PM
Um - because it's the right thing to do? Just a thought.

Ted Hoppe
12-23-2017, 01:12 PM
You were right - BEA Systems, Inc. was a company specialized in enterprise infrastructure software products which was wholly acquired by Oracle Corporation on April 29, 2008.

Peerie Maa
12-23-2017, 01:13 PM
Personally, I’m thankful for diversity. I’m the only male practitioner in my clinic. And yes, there is some harassment, but the women are getting better about it, and I’m okay with it.

You have just reminded me of the old Tracers Office, a place no young draftsman ever dared to go. ;)

LeeG
12-23-2017, 01:14 PM
Shouldn’t the question be why hire men?

My grandmother started her own business in the 30’s that only hired women. Solved that problem.

Ted Hoppe
12-23-2017, 01:14 PM
Shouldn’t the question be why hire men?

this is true too.

question for you Steven and every one else have you ever worked for a serious commercial enterprise that had mostly women at the top?

Peerie Maa
12-23-2017, 01:15 PM
You were right - BEA Systems, Inc. was a company specialized in enterprise infrastructure software products which was wholly acquired by Oracle Corporation on April 29, 2008.

No Wukkas.

Durnik
12-23-2017, 01:25 PM
... Freudian slip (or, perhaps, bustier?).

0-:

Gib Etheridge
12-23-2017, 01:31 PM
One lesson learned during the 2 world wars was that women are much more capable than most people, including the women, had realized. Often enough they are more capable than some, or even all, of the men. Since then those for whom money is the bottom line have found it advantageous to hire more women, especially since they would work for less. That in turn increased average family incomes, and in keeping with the "all the market will bear" dictum prices increased accordingly.

As is so often the case the answer to questions like yours is simply to "follow the money".

David G
12-23-2017, 01:56 PM
One lesson learned during the 2 world wars was that women are much more capable than most people, including the women, had realized. Often enough they are more capable than some, or even all, of the men. Since then those for whom money is the bottom line have found it advantageous to hire more women, especially since they would work for less. That in turn increased average family incomes, and in keeping with the "all the market will bear" dictum prices increased accordingly.

As is so often the case the answer to questions like yours is simply to "follow the money".

Yes. That too.

StevenBauer
12-23-2017, 01:58 PM
this is true too.

question for you Steven and every one else have you ever worked for a serious commercial enterprise that had mostly women at the top?

I’ve been self employed for 30 years so according to Mary I’d have to say yes. ;)

Chip-skiff
12-23-2017, 02:12 PM
When I ran a wilderness monitoring program, I had a woman boss and hired women field assistants for the summer rain and lake sampling session.

My female boss was scrappy and fought for our program, but she didn't pull the sort of petty pecking-order crap that my former male bosses delighted in.

My female field assistants actually listened when I gave them instructions, felt free to ask questions when they didn't get it, and were generally meticulous. They were clean and knew how to cook. They didn't pull dumb stunts to prove how tough they were, or get injured in the field. Our work was risky, and they were careful, not headstrong and foolish.

For the winter snow-sampling, there were no women applicants so I hired mountain guides from Jackson Hole who were ski-beasts: they could haul a pulk with 150 pounds and bust track for hours on end, and ski breakable windcrust with a 90-pound pack. But they weren't easy companions in the confines of a mountaineering tent in subzero cold– for one thing, they only washed their sleeping bags once each season and often wore the same longjohns for ten days at a stretch. Along with the ganja smoking and excessive drinking.

When my good female boss moved on, I got a little, cocky bastard for a supervisor, who used to pull stunts like tossing his keys at me and ordering me to pick up his mail (I opened the window, tossed his keys out, then offered to throw him after them.) He insisted on skiing in with us to collect a sample, so we took him on the easiest run: base camp was a guard cabin and the collector was three miles in, at a low elevation.

But the skiing was hideous, a hard crust over depth hoar. Our skis would ride up on big plates, which would tip and spill us into bottomless hoar (fragile snow crystals that form in extreme cold). The difficulty was compounded by lots of moraine boulder fields, narrow drainages, and thick timber with lots of deadfall trunks. I started counting his crashes on my fingers, and ran out. He was near-comatose on the drive back to town, and didn't show up for work for the next couple days.

When he did, limping into his office, he proclaimed the trip easy. What do you do with an idiot?

john welsford
12-23-2017, 02:22 PM
Considering how people are. How most men are in the workplace. yeah, I know about diversity, about glass ceilings, equal pay and many other modern turns which has brought dramatic changes to our society. We can agree that tribalism is often seen as an asset when it comes to productivity, trimming costs, protecting ones regious beliefs and promoting ethic prosperity in our diverse economy.

If we set aside the social engineering aspects and calls for diversity in the workplace (which by the way is a fictious construct based on personal preferences and intertribal promotions), why would a business with predominately male leadership hire a woman for any job when an equally capable man can fill the job when the issues of harassment and abuse seem to so pervasive and challenging to the very nature of human interaction?

Some years ago the company who I worked for moved me into a job where I ran a four shift 7 day 24 hour operation in a factory that the company had just bought. Up to that point there were no women in the shift teams, it was not a written policy, it was just expected to be that way. We had a bit of a cleanout of people who werent performing, some were moved to permanent day shift with closer supervision, some out the door, some retired, and I had the interesting task of recruiting people to fill the gaps and manage the teams integration and training.
I hired several women, not because I wanted to hire fems, but because they had the right skills and attitudes, and it was noticeable that there was a subtle difference in the way the team members worked together and related to each other. Much better, fewer issues around promptness, supporting each other when things needed doing, teaching each other the skills so they could move positions if someone wasnt there, all sorts of small but significant changes. For the most part very positive.
The boss got me to put together a paper on it, and it became company policy to have a mix of genders ( we had one tranny, and several gays as well, all good at their jobs and all fitted in well) throughout the five factories that they had.
The companies made panel products by the way, plywood, osb, hardwood and mdf. Often heavy work, 12 hour shifts, very "industrial" setting. It was noticeable that in general the women were much better than the guys at repetitive tasks that required close attention.

John Welsford.
'

john welsford
12-23-2017, 02:33 PM
You have just reminded me of the old Tracers Office, a place no young draftsman ever dared to go. ;)

In the factory that I referred to in my previous post, we had a 40s age really off the wall and in your face womam. A really outrageous type, very well liked by all. She stood up at a full staff meeting, that was about 140 people and said that she had a complaint about "sexual harassment". The place went dead quiet, until she said "I'm not getting nearly enough of it!". The place cracked up!
Only she could get away with that.

John Welsford

Ted Hoppe
12-23-2017, 02:59 PM
I’ve been self employed for 30 years so according to Mary I’d have to say yes. ;)

We all serve higher masters. As a boss, she ain't bad.:)

skuthorp
12-23-2017, 03:13 PM
As a young tradesman in the printing industry when it was all lead and iron most tradies had a double hernia by 35, and very few women were likely to put up with the dirt, crudeness and heavy work. With new tech that changed more quickly than might have been expected and as production manager in a big ad agency I found that women were much more careful and better at detail and following a brief. But a mix was the result of course because you hired on talent and potential not gender. Nowadays with remote working on line even the old shibboleth of pregnancy and children means that barrier has disappeared or should have. I am still doing contract work for one of my old employers from our tree house in the bush via the net.

David W Pratt
12-23-2017, 04:03 PM
I suspect one unintended, negative consequence of the metoo movement will be that men, individually, and unofficially will begin to choose other men to work with, and to exclude women from one on one meetings, and thus from day to day decision making

Ted Hoppe
12-23-2017, 04:13 PM
I suspect one unintended, negative consequence of the metoo movement will be that men, individually, and unofficially will begin to choose other men to work with, and to exclude women from one on one meetings, and thus from day to day decision making

a sadly for women - this is where the pain will be felt.

what alpha male executive or business owner would want to include a capable, intelligent, charismatic and possibly attractive woman under thier leadership to whom share common thought and practice, going to social meetings, out of town business gatherings or late night bull pen sessions. Intoxications of excitement, power, money and exuberance makes for quirky, passionate or confusing times. Quite a slippery slope.

CK 17
12-23-2017, 04:53 PM
I suspect one unintended, negative consequence of the metoo movement will be that men, individually, and unofficially will begin to choose other men to work with, and to exclude women from one on one meetings, and thus from day to day decision making
Unless of course women start doing the choosing, then the opposite may happen. Bottom line, men have been acting likes a$$’s for millennia. They’ve gotten called on it. It’s ending.

Phil Y
12-23-2017, 05:03 PM
Well they look pretty good.:)

Thats a joke OK. I subscribe to all the proper and established reasons for hiring women. A balanced workforce works better in all sorts of ways.

Phil Y
12-23-2017, 05:07 PM
My ex employer BAE Systems were pretty good at it as well.
I worked in a senior HR position in BAE Australia for several years. A good number of our senior guys, and all but one were guys, we're direct imports from BAE UK. We, the global company, wrote good policies. The reality was different. Very typical conservative old white men's club. Just enough diversity to have examples to celebrate.

CK 17
12-23-2017, 05:07 PM
Maybe because it's the right thing to do? If you aren't an A hole there's nothing to worry about.
We've been hiring an increasing number of female pilots, and it hasn't been a problem. Most of the current generation of male pilots are smart enough to know how to act. The old WW2 and Vietnam era guys often didn't, but fortunately they are long gone.
Yes, the airline industry was ahead of the curve on this issue. Thankfully, Most of the cavemen are gone. There are still relatively few women pilots where I work, but that is more a function of the uncompetitive pay.

Interestingly, I have been working with an increasingly number of female mechanics.

And its it’s not just this most recent harassment issue. When some misguided politicians attempt to pass various discriminatory laws, it’s usually the airline industry that steps in first and threatens action.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-23-2017, 06:25 PM
I am an old white man. I have spent almost all my working career surrounded by women, the exception being the times spent in shipbuilidng and ship repairing yards, which are pretty unreconstructed places even now, although the men are starting to fade away as they are replaced by robots. My former employers were very swift off the mark in employing women at sea as officers and they were fine. In offices there were always plenty of women.

Despite this, I have survived my whole working life without once being accused of acting improperly towards a woman in the work place.

That is because I have never done so.

It was not hard. Not because I was not surrounded by pretty, clever, women - I was - but because for most of that time I was married.

I was tempted to make a pass at a (very pretty, Chinese) colleague just once, when we were both staying in an hotel on a business trip, but I reminded myself that it was not a good idea, and I didn't do it. None the less, I retain a very clear memory, in glorious Technicolour, of not getting into the lift with her, after a day's work, a meal and a drink or two in the hotel bar. We've remained firm friends, and she now holds a senior position in a big bank, is on her second husband, and knows a lot of people in the shipping industry whom I also know.

I claim the Boring Old Man of The Year Award.

Chip-skiff
12-23-2017, 06:30 PM
I suspect one unintended, negative consequence of the metoo movement will be that men, individually, and unofficially will begin to choose other men to work with, and to exclude women from one on one meetings, and thus from day to day decision making

Only the stupid, biased, egocentric men. Who deserve one another.

Yeadon
12-23-2017, 07:21 PM
Considering how people are. How most men are in the workplace. yeah, I know about diversity, about glass ceilings, equal pay and many other modern turns which has brought dramatic changes to our society. We can agree that tribalism is often seen as an asset when it comes to productivity, trimming costs, protecting ones regious beliefs and promoting ethic prosperity in our diverse economy.

If we set aside the social engineering aspects and calls for diversity in the workplace (which by the way is a fictious construct based on personal preferences and intertribal promotions), why would a business with predominately male leadership hire a woman for any job when an equally capable man can fill the job when the issues of harassment and abuse seem to so pervasive and challenging to the very nature of human interaction?

Gross.

Tom Montgomery
12-23-2017, 07:32 PM
The problems began when women aspired to being something more than barefoot and pregnant. It is all their fault.

The Bigfella
12-23-2017, 08:56 PM
I worked as a CEO report in a predominantly female listed public company. It didn't help to be male and making more than 50% of the company's profit with less than 1% of the staff.

downthecreek
12-24-2017, 04:10 AM
The problems began when women aspired to being something more than barefoot and pregnant. It is all their fault.

Of course it is! Wicked witches, unscrupulous temptresses that lure poor innocent men into their webs and entangle them in silken fetters. Of course the poor lambs should corral themselves away from what, tragically, is half the human race. How can they possibly be expected to refrain from behaving like dismal little pr**ks in the face of such wiles? :d

Let them build their fortresses, I say. With luck a lot of miserable old buffers and sad little wimps and manchildren will disappear from our working lives. And they will be the losers (unless, of course, the Bigfella is included in their number, in which case they will rule the world and everything in it - that man is a legend in his own min....er.....time!)

The magnificent madwoman Germain Greer, wrote many years ago "women have no idea how much men hate them". But happily, I see around all me, here and in my day to day life, that most men are decent, mature people who are not terrified of grown up human beings who happen to be women and who don't choose to remain in servitude to their wishes and impulses. Grown up men and women can live in peace. The others can take a long walk off a short pier, because we will leave them far behind.

I had a female boss for a large part of my working life. She was brilliant. Couldn't ask for a better employer. Self employment rocks! |:)

The Bigfella
12-24-2017, 05:43 AM
Of course it is! Wicked witches, unscrupulous temptresses that lure poor innocent men into their webs and entangle them in silken fetters. Of course the poor lambs should corral themselves away from what, tragically, is half the human race. How can they possibly be expected to refrain from behaving like dismal little pr**ks in the face of such wiles? :d

Let them build their fortresses, I say. With luck a lot of miserable old buffers and sad little wimps and manchildren will disappear from our working lives. And they will be the losers (unless, of course, the Bigfella is included in their number, in which case they will rule the world and everything in it - that man is a legend in his own min....er.....time!)

The magnificent madwoman Germain Greer, wrote many years ago "women have no idea how much men hate them". But happily, I see around all me, here and in my day to day life, that most men are decent, mature people who are not terrified of grown up human beings who happen to be women and who don't choose to remain in servitude to their wishes and impulses. Grown up men and women can live in peace. The others can take a long walk off a short pier, because we will leave them far behind.

I had a female boss for a large part of my working life. She was brilliant. Couldn't ask for a better employer. Self employment rocks! |:)

Would you like lessons in how to rule the world?

downthecreek
12-24-2017, 05:57 AM
Would you like lessons in how to rule the world?

Hang on a mo....second thoughts - could be fun! Yes indeedy! Let's be having it then. Lesson one, please. And do post it here so that we can all benefit Y>

You know, I used to run a highly profitable company that employed 3 women and 1003 men - and, know what? I had to make 100% of the entire profit by myself. All the blokes were much too busy lurking around the women, hoping to grab a pussy, cop a feel, grope a bum and goodness knows what else to do any work. I kept them on for years out of the goodness of my heart, but eventually I had to let them go. They tried to form a company together, away from all temptation, but they were so lost without any pussies and bums and boobs to entertain them that they all went into a decline and died of starvation or broken hearts. I thought of finding some hussies, frippets, loose women, fallen women, ladies of the night, working girls, strumpets, crumpets, harlots, hustlers, tramps, sluts, hookers etc. to keep them going, but somehow, willing victims didn't seem to satisfy their addiction. It was sad, of course, but, really they were not much good to man nor beast, so maybe it was for the best. |:)

Syed
12-24-2017, 06:45 AM
Hello DTC, nice seeing you after a long time.

downthecreek
12-24-2017, 06:46 AM
Hello, Syed. Very good to see you too. I hope all is well with you and your family? |:)

The Bigfella
12-24-2017, 06:49 AM
Hang on a mo....second thoughts - could be fun! Yes indeedy! Let's be having it then. Lesson one, please. And do post it here so that we can all benefit Y>

You know, I used to run a highly profitable company that employed 3 women and 1003 men - and, know what? I had to make 100% of the entire profit by myself. All the blokes were much too busy lurking around the women, hoping to grab a pussy, cop a feel, grope a bum and goodness knows what else to do any work. I kept them on for years out of the goodness of my heart, but eventually I had to let them go. They tried to form a company together, away from all temptation, but they were so lost without any pussies and bums and boobs to entertain them that they all went into a decline and died of starvation or broken hearts. I thought of finding some hussies, frippets, loose women, fallen women, ladies of the night, working girls, strumpets, crumpets, harlots, hustlers, tramps, sluts, hookers etc. to keep them going, but somehow, willing victims didn't seem to satisfy their addiction. It was sad, of course, but, really they were not much good to man nor beast, so maybe it was for the best. |:)

Let me guess, it wasn't anything to do with writing?

Meanwhile, your lesson will have to wait. I'm busy watching "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner"... which has some parallels with my recent trip to Jakarta to meet the girlfriend's family |;)

downthecreek
12-24-2017, 07:19 AM
Let me guess, it wasn't anything to do with writing?

Meanwhile, your lesson will have to wait. I'm busy watching "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner"... which has some parallels with my recent trip to Jakarta to meet the girlfriend's family |;)

Well, have a good time, but don't forget. We will all be agog, waiting with bated breath etc.

A world ruled from the WBF Bilge - can't wait! Mind you, I shall content myself with the position of Dame of Sark. I always wanted to be the Dame of Sark. |:)

The Bigfella
12-24-2017, 07:24 AM
Well, have a good time, but don't forget. We will all be agog, waiting with bated breath etc.

A world ruled from the WBF Bilge - can't wait! Mind you, I shall content myself with the position of Dame of Sark. I always wanted to be the Dame of Sark. |:)

Sure you're old enough for the role?

downthecreek
12-24-2017, 07:33 AM
Sure you're old enough for the role?

'Course I am. I'm Methuselah's big sister BY:D

The Bigfella
12-24-2017, 08:13 AM
'Course I am. I'm Methuselah's big sister BY:D

Sorry, didn't realise we knew each other so well.

Garret
12-24-2017, 08:23 AM
I consulted with a Mutual Fund/Broker Dealer for many years. Staff was probably 60/40 female/male & management about 30/70. Big shock, right? I worked with & for a number of women there & preferred it to the men. Willing to do what needed to be done without 300 "what if"s for every decision.

The most glaring example of this was at a meeting of the chairman of the board, president & all VPs + the consultant. The president & 3 VPs were women. There was a problem with how a form had been set up on the web site - so that people were only filling out 1 side of the (legally required) 2 sides. The CoB went around the table & the first 6 or so were men. All of them spoke a variation of "Not my fault" & nothing more. Then he got to one of the women and she said "I see 2 ways to fix this & they are..."

Competence matters, gender doesn't.

The Bigfella
12-24-2017, 08:30 AM
I consulted with a Mutual Fund/Broker Dealer for many years. Staff was probably 60/40 female/male & management about 30/70. Big shock, right? I worked with & for a number of women there & preferred it to the men. Willing to do what needed to be done without 300 "what if"s for every decision.

The most glaring example of this was at a meeting of the chairman of the board, president & all VPs + the consultant. The president & 3 VPs were women. There was a problem with how a form had been set up on the web site - so that people were only filling out 1 side of the (legally required) 2 sides. The CoB went around the table & the first 6 or so were men. All of them spoke a variation of "Not my fault" & nothing more. Then he got to one of the women and she said "I see 2 ways to fix this & they are..."

Competence matters, gender doesn't.

Indeed. Many years ago... 1980's, I was state manager for a multinational. I was hiring - put forward my pick to the (idiot male) GM for approval and got the "but she's a woman... she'll get married and leave". I won the argument... and a year or so later got rid of the GM.

Nicholas Scheuer
12-24-2017, 08:32 AM
"Do unto others as one would have them do unto you" should be all the direction we need for integrated workplaces.

bobbys
12-24-2017, 10:53 AM
Maybe because it's the right thing to do? If you aren't an A hole there's nothing to worry about.
We've been hiring an increasing number of female pilots, and it hasn't been a problem. Most of the current generation of male pilots are smart enough to know how to act. The old WW2 and Vietnam era guys often didn't, but fortunately they are long gone.
.

Well , before you dance a jig on their graves you could also say most worked so hard their wives did not have to work..

My wife never worked, the neighbors wifes did and they could afford new cars, funiture, vacations, only thing was our house was filled with all the neighborhood kids all day.
..

My neighborhood griwing up was all ww2 guys, best people i ever met..

I worked construction my whole life, guys coukd be rude but the rudest men i ever saw were office workers..

bobbys
12-24-2017, 10:58 AM
Considering how people are. How most men are in the workplace. yeah, I know about diversity, about glass ceilings, equal pay and many other modern turns which has brought dramatic changes to our society. We can agree that tribalism is often seen as an asset when it comes to productivity, trimming costs, protecting ones regious beliefs and promoting ethic prosperity in our diverse economy.

If we set aside the social engineering aspects and calls for diversity in the workplace (which by the way is a fictious construct based on personal preferences and intertribal promotions), why would a business with predominately male leadership hire a woman for any job when an equally capable man can fill the job when the issues of harassment and abuse seem to so pervasive and challenging to the very nature of human interaction?.

Not many men teachers or nurses.

I know a few and they have a very hard time .

There are fustrated men haters that are out for them..

Ted Hoppe
12-24-2017, 11:41 AM
why would a business with predominately male leadership hire a woman for any job when an equally capable man can fill the job when the issues of harassment and abuse seem to so pervasive and challenging to the very nature of human interaction?

What I get from many of you that would rather be tested by sexual politics, hopes of romantic tensions and possible harassment charges in the office under the "moral", "right" or proper thing to do when the easier method is not to hire women. in clearly stated socially accepted terms - companies can open say we only want female canadates for open positions while companies will be sued to stating men only should apply. The double standard is in and most of you agree with that.

Fascinating.

bobbys
12-24-2017, 11:57 AM
When i was a union carpenter we were hired by a list.

A woman was placed first on the list skipping everyone else.

.

The one gal i worked with was a very pretty blond and very nice, i only asked her why her hubby wanted her to work on a bridge job, lots of heavy forming.

Well one day we were standing on a rail when the concrete buvket was heading our way.

I stepped up but she froze.

The other guys screamed at me to get her out of the way.

I grabbed her by the neck and dragged her up pretty much beating her up.

They put her on flagging duty.

I felt so bad but she said , hey you saved my life...

However she was a girly girl but i believe she could have been a good carpentet, .

Even a lot of men could not cut it on some of those jobs.

downthecreek
12-24-2017, 02:05 PM
the easier method is not to hire women.



Exactly. Most people tend to hire people like themselves and most people take the easy road over the harder one. So that's what most people will do. Especially if they can't trust their themselves people not to be dismal little pr**ks. Sex pestering, however apparently trivial, is much more than just that, as anyone with half a brain and a modicum of honesty will recognise. But an easy life is the important thing, of course.

So what? Just another of the many barriers women have to deal with. But times they are a-changing...By the way, perpetuating discrimination is not the same as reversing it. Fascinating, you say? Well, you're easily fascinated. |:)

Chip-skiff
12-24-2017, 02:11 PM
Beyond the competence and safety issues (my female co-workers proving better in both ways), I simply enjoy working with women and find their company a great pleasure.

Phil Y
12-24-2017, 03:24 PM
When i was a union carpenter we were hired by a list.

A woman was placed first on the list skipping everyone else.

.

The one gal i worked with was a very pretty blond and very nice, i only asked her why her hubby wanted her to work on a bridge job, lots of heavy forming.

Well one day we were standing on a rail when the concrete buvket was heading our way.

I stepped up but she froze.

The other guys screamed at me to get her out of the way.

I grabbed her by the neck and dragged her up pretty much beating her up.

They put her on flagging duty.

I felt so bad but she said , hey you saved my life...

However she was a girly girl but i believe she could have been a good carpentet, .

Even a lot of men could not cut it on some of those jobs.

I just don't understand what this comment is about.

Apart from the carpenter with a vagina going to the top of the list, it just says a new carpenter froze in an emergency, and you saved that carpenters life. The carpenter was then removed from dangerous duty, and you felt bad about that. I can't see the relevance of the vagina in that story at all.

downthecreek
12-24-2017, 03:41 PM
.

Well , before you dance a jig on their graves you could also say most worked so hard their wives did not have to work..

My wife never worked, the neighbors wifes did and they could afford new cars, funiture, vacations, only thing was our house was filled with all the neighborhood kids all day.


I've had to work all my life. The reason I had to work is because it would never have crossed my mind not to work. That's just part of a full life.

I never considered being financially dependent on a man when I could earn a good living for myself and contribute equally to every aspect of our lives together. Good thing too, because there have been chunks of life when I've been the main breadwinner, when my husband was made redundant. I wouldn't have had it any other way. I've been lucky in that I have always had, or made for myself, interesting work. But not to work - to pause, to make an end, to rust unburnish'd, not to shine in use - vision of hell!

I still work. I just don't take any money for it now. I work, and have always worked, because I want to work.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
12-24-2017, 03:49 PM
Perhaps the original question should have been addressed to Hugh Heffner.

Phil Y
12-24-2017, 04:24 PM
What I get from many of you that would rather be tested by sexual politics, hopes of romantic tensions and possible harassment charges in the office under the "moral", "right" or proper thing to do when the easier method is not to hire women. in clearly stated socially accepted terms - companies can open say we only want female canadates for open positions while companies will be sued to stating men only should apply. The double standard is in and most of you agree with that.

Fascinating.
Not the case here Ted, no discrimination on grounds of sex allowed either way.

Phillip Allen
12-24-2017, 04:31 PM
I've never worked with a woman bricklayer but was curious... I've heard of women bricklayers though... if they can do it then fine by me

bobbys
12-24-2017, 05:02 PM
I just don't understand what this comment is about.

Apart from the carpenter with a vagina going to the top of the list, it just says a new carpenter froze in an emergency, and you saved that carpenters life. The carpenter was then removed from dangerous duty, and you felt bad about that. I can't see the relevance of the vagina in that story at all..

I dunno i was just saying whst happened the only time i worked with a women in heavy construction..

I was not writing war and peace or the constitution ..

downthecreek
12-25-2017, 03:52 AM
Not the case here Ted, no discrimination on grounds of sex allowed either way.

Same as here, with a few exceptions where the job is obviously limited to one gender (modelling women's underwear, perhaps?)

And discrimination against an individual because their work colleagues might behave badly towards them and that they might have the temerity to object hasn't really crept into our laws yet. But the first step has certainly been taken - a company that refused to hire black people, or gay people, or Roman Catholics etc. - and, of course, women - would soon find itself in trouble. The argument that candidate were equally qualified would cut no ice if the pattern was there.

The Bigfella
12-25-2017, 04:51 AM
Exactly. Most people tend to hire people like themselves and most people take the easy road over the harder one. So that's what most people will do. Especially if they can't trust their themselves people not to be dismal little pr**ks. Sex pestering, however apparently trivial, is much more than just that, as anyone with half a brain and a modicum of honesty will recognise. But an easy life is the important thing, of course.

So what? Just another of the many barriers women have to deal with. But times they are a-changing...By the way, perpetuating discrimination is not the same as reversing it. Fascinating, you say? Well, you're easily fascinated. |:)

Can I have an English translation of the bold section please?

downthecreek
12-25-2017, 05:21 AM
Can I have an English translation of the bold section please?Dunno how that happened....

"can't trust their colleagues or themselves" The rest is pretty clear.

BTW - Make with Rule the World Lesson 1 pronto, little bro, or I'm telling mum! BY:D

The Bigfella
12-25-2017, 07:01 AM
Dunno how that happened....

"can't trust their colleagues or themselves" The rest is pretty clear.

BTW - Make with Rule the World Lesson 1 pronto, little bro, or I'm telling mum! BY:D

Rule 1 - treat others as they want to be treated.

It was said earlier that one should treat others as you want to be treated. Problem with that is, we are all different - as I feel sure you would agree in our case, for example. Therefore, if I were to treat you as I want to be treated, chances are, I'd be treating you the wrong way.

Another example.... it would appear that Harvey treated women the way he wanted to be treated. How did that work out for the women he interacted with? If he'd treated them according to my Rule 1, he'd still be running his show.

Need more explanation, or can we call that Rule 1?

The Bigfella
12-27-2017, 05:09 AM
Rule 2, under-promise and over-deliver. Always. Taking business from those who over-promise and under-deliver is like taking candy from a baby....

downthecreek
12-27-2017, 05:16 AM
Rule 2, under-promise and over-deliver. Always. Taking business from those who over-promise and under-deliver is like taking candy from a baby....

Keep going, bro. Rules 1 and 2 are pretty basic, but I presume there must be some great insights to come? |:)

The Bigfella
12-27-2017, 05:32 AM
Keep going, bro. Rules 1 and 2 are pretty basic, but I presume there must be some great insights to come? |:)

Pretty basic... but if folks complied with them, we wouldn't have the Harveys of the world getting into the poo, would we?

Besides, it's my world... I'll right the rules.

Rule 3... put those you love on a pedestal and remember that that's where they are.