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Rum_Pirate
10-09-2017, 10:10 PM
So how come bakers refusing gays get sued/prosecuted but this gay chap doesn't for refusing Christians?

Have you seen/heard the video of the exchange?


Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’


https://twt-thumbs.washtimes.com/media/image/2017/10/06/Bedlam_Coffee_shop_c0-7-640-380_s885x516.jpg?7f3880f9901c7d1e0c41d57b33d6f4d35 e616946 (https://www.washingtontimes.com/multimedia/image/bedlam-coffee-shopjpg/)
Members of Bedlam coffee shop in Seattle, Washington, kick out Christian customers after realizing they were posting graphic pro-life messages within the community prior to entering the establishment. Video of the encounter was published to the Abolish Human Abortion Facebook ... more > (https://www.washingtontimes.com/multimedia/image/bedlam-coffee-shopjpg/)


By Douglas Ernst (https://www.washingtontimes.com/staff/douglas-ernst/)- The Washington Times - Friday, October 6, 2017
A Christian pro-life group that was recently ejected from a Seattle coffee shop over its local activism is attracting hundreds of thousands of Facebook (https://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/facebook/) views after footage of the encounter was posted online.
Members of Abolish Human Abortion recently decided to order drinks in Seattle’s Bedlam coffee shop after posting and distributing pro-life pamphlets in the local community. Activists who joined Caleb Head and Caytie Davis on Oct. 1 were soon berated and told the leave when they were identified.
“I’m gay. You have to leave,” owner Ben Borgman (https://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/ben-borgman/) said in the video (https://www.facebook.com/AbolishHumanAbortion/videos/1584181761647832/).

“Are you denying us service?” Mr. Davis asked.
“I am. Yeah,” Mr. Borgman (https://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/ben-borgman/) replied.
The confrontation about tolerance then escalated when activist Jonathan Sutherland (https://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/jonathan-sutherland/) was asked if he would watch a sex act.
“If I go get my boyfriend and f- him in the a— right here you’re going to tolerate that?” Mr. Borgman (https://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/ben-borgman/) asked.
“That would be your choice,” Mr. Sutherland (https://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/jonathan-sutherland/) said, the conservative website Red State reported (https://www.redstate.com/brandon_morse/2017/10/06/gay-coffee-shop-owner-refuses-serve-christians-goes-anti-christian-rant/) Friday.
“Are you going to tolerate it? Answer my f-ing question! No, you’re going to sit right here and f-ing watch it! […] Well then I don’t have to f-ing tolerate this! Leave! All of you. Tell all your f-ing friends, don’t f-ing come here.”
A request by the activists to turn to Jesus was met with the response, “Yeah, I like a—. I’m not going to be saved by anything. I’d f- Christ in the a—. OK? He’s hot.”
The incident comes as the U.S. Supreme Court gears up to take the case of Jack Philliips, the Christian baker who was ordered by the the Colorado Civil Rights Commission to serve wedding cake to LGBT couples — or none at all.
The high court agreed in June to hear the case (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/31/jack-phillips-christian-baker-files-supreme-court-/) this fall.
The Bedlam coffee shop issued responses on Oct. 2 (https://www.facebook.com/BedlamCoffee/posts/10154863973601161) and Oct. 4 asking viewers to consider another side of the story.
“In the end, it’s all about context,” the owner wrote (https://www.facebook.com/BedlamCoffee/posts/10154868264671161). “Everything is context. Out of context a comment can serve any argument. Take for example the phrase ‘I will bring my boyfriend out here and f- him in the a—.’ out of context it could mean a slew of things. It’s delivery in this case was meant to shock and repulse the audience. Out of context it could be labeled a perversion, or a kink depending how you personally couch the subject. In context it was a response, a response to being shocked and repulsed. A revenge you could even call it, a weakness demonstrated in the typical, they hurt me, I will hurt them fashion.”
The 52-year-old owner said that his full exchange with the activists included one of the activists denying that graphic (http://theliberator.news/2017/homosexual-coffee-shop-owner-evicts-peaceful-christians/)anti-abortion materials were their own.
Mr. Borgman (https://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/ben-borgman/) also said that anti-abortion imagery was hidden within his shop.

“They were ready with that camera,” the owner wrote. “I was baptized Catholic, Roman Catholic actually, I’ve been to a few bible studies, read the entire book, more than once. To my understanding, and to speak in the religious vernacular; these people are working for Satan. The great trickster has deluded them into believing that hate is love, that rage is peace, and that lies are truth. The God I knew, the Jesus I was taught about would absolutely never ever print a poster with a hideous dead baby representation at ‘what was clearly meant to insinuate’ at the hands of gays … suffice to the say the poster was gross, and the text on the back? Holy cow, whoever wrote that is in a lot of pain. I spoke to them in their own language.”

LeeG
10-09-2017, 10:17 PM
Rum Pirate, why such a weak troll? How about something from your island that gets your goat?

Rum_Pirate
10-09-2017, 10:18 PM
Rum Pirate, why such a weak troll? How about something from your island that gets your goat?
Not a troll but a genuine question.

BTW do you support this coffee shop owner?

IIRC Big number of responses and outrage the the baker declined to bake for 'gay' couple.

When I post things from my island it gets few if any responses. excluding hurricanes and pools and a pic of a girlfriend standing on KATE's boom.

LeeG
10-09-2017, 10:23 PM
Not a troll but a genuine question.

BTW do you support this coffee shop owner?

IIRC Big number of responses and outrage the the baker declined to bake for 'gay' couple.

When I post things from my island it gets few if any responses. excluding hurricanes and pools and a pic of a girlfriend standing on KATE's boom.

Oh dear, you feel neglected. I thought your pool pics were much appreciated and enjoyed. Is there an open gay community on yr island?

Rum_Pirate
10-09-2017, 10:41 PM
Oh dear, you feel neglected. I thought your pool pics were much appreciated and enjoyed. Is there an open gay community on yr island? Not neglected. Yes that is why I specifically excluded them. and the other two topics. :ycool:

I consider the OP topic a valid topic for discussion.

As to your last query. Apparently there are openly gay people on this island. EG One chap I have known for decades has just 'come out of the closet'. No, they are not stoned (like some religion would do).

BTW FYI

Male on male homosexuality is illegal in St. Kitts and Nevis. Section 56 and 57 of the "Offences Against the Person Act" criminalises male on male same-sex sexual activity. Section 56 of the "Offences Against the Person Act": "The abominable crime of buggery" – up to 10 years imprisonment, with or without hard labour.LGBT rights in Saint Kitts and Nevis - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saint_Kitts_and_Nevis)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saint_Kitts_and_Nevis

Rum_Pirate
10-09-2017, 10:52 PM
BTW do you support this coffee shop owner's actions?

Barry
10-09-2017, 11:01 PM
100% Support the shop owner. Worked for Kim Davis. She hasn't been prosecuted, and she was acting as an agent of the State Government.
It's a two way st. And hopefully there will be more of it.

As per AG Sessions: "Religious liberty is not merely a right to personal religious beliefs or even to worship in a sacred place," Sessions wrote. "Except in the narrowest of circumstances, no one should be forced to choose between living out his or her faith and complying with the law. Therefore, to the greatest extent practicable and permitted by law, religious observance should be reasonably accommodated in all government activity, including employment, contracting and programming."

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/06/sessions-calls-for-broad-religious-freedom-protections-243536

LeeG
10-09-2017, 11:03 PM
BTW do you support this coffee shop owner's actions?

Support? I don't care. Do you care that being queer is illegal where you live? Is a lesbian relation illegal in St Kitts?

CWSmith
10-09-2017, 11:26 PM
The OP is a bit hard to read and vague in a few places, but it does seem to have a point. What goes around comes around and there is a difference between what a person was doing before coming into the shop and what the do in the shop.

I have to say that the shop owner behaved badly.

Phillip Allen
10-09-2017, 11:30 PM
Support? I don't care. Do you care that being queer is illegal where you live? Is a lesbian relation illegal in St Kitts?

well, lee, what DO you care about as you are obviously trying to deflect the point in the op?

LeeG
10-09-2017, 11:40 PM
well, lee, what DO you care about as you are obviously trying to deflect the point in the op?

RP has no point. He's a lazy troll.

Jim Bow
10-09-2017, 11:41 PM
The supposed "Christian" group consists of about 6 people who think that Westboro Baptist tactics are what Jesus would use. Obnoxious jerks who enter a coffee shop, camera rolling in an attempt to provoke a scene. Heavily covered by Washington Times, Breitbart, and others of that ilk. They were kicked out because of the way they'd been acting out on the sidewalk, harassing passersby and shoving Jesus down their throats.

LeeG
10-09-2017, 11:56 PM
OK so you don't care. The law has not been enforced for quite some time (decades?). Apparently "Female to female sexual relationships are legal".


See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saint_Kitts_and_Nevis

So RP, are you ok with homosexuality being illegal?

Gerarddm
10-10-2017, 01:09 AM
A foolish thing for him to do.

What he should have done was surreptitiously price gouged them. ;-)

skuthorp
10-10-2017, 01:44 AM
So deliberate provocation get's the desired reaction? Who'd a thunk it?

But no one got shot or beat up, that's a plus these days.

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 04:42 AM
The supposed "Christian" group consists of about 6 people who think that Westboro Baptist tactics are what Jesus would use. Obnoxious jerks who enter a coffee shop, camera rolling in an attempt to provoke a scene. Heavily covered by Washington Times, Breitbart, and others of that ilk. They were kicked out because of the way they'd been acting out on the sidewalk, harassing passersby and shoving Jesus down their throats.

In which case they were harming the coffee shops business by discouraging customers out for a quiet coffee. Refuse their custom on sound business reasons, I would have expected the same from any other business on that street.

mdh
10-10-2017, 05:05 AM
Wonder if they'd serve antifa? Harvey Weinstein?

Jim Mahan
10-10-2017, 06:18 AM
The shop owner behaved badly, motivated by personal outrage and his own particular slant. The only thing I think he should have done differently was use polite language and stay on topic. He was not just incensed that the twisted-born-agains were obnoxiously proseltyzing, and committing an embarrassingly lame gotcha, in a privately owned public establishment.

As an owner of a privately owned public establishment he has a right to refuse service, for a variety of reasons. The notion that, according to the shop owner, the anti-abortion posters and the graphics were also an attack on homosexuality in general and him in particular. Upset was appropriate. The shock value, hate-back attack was bad. The so-called Christian bushwhackers got what they deserved, otherwise.

Not that it matters to the principles, or the principals, but I am mildly curious as to whether the shop was crowded or not, what proportion of the crowd were regular customers, and what proportion happened to be gay or how many tables were occupied by evangelicals. Was the crowd interested, embarrassed, put off, agitated, amused, evenly divided or united in civic outrage? How did anyone else in the joint feel or what did any else do or say in the moment? Did a table of nice Lutherans leave quietly? Was the street outside full of rabble and riot? Was it a gay pride day or in a rainbow neighborhood? The gutter mouth owner was right about context.

mdh
10-10-2017, 06:28 AM
The shop owner behaved badly, motivated by personal outrage and his own particular slant. The only thing I think he should have done differently was use polite language and stay on topic. He was not just incensed that the twisted-born-agains were obnoxiously proseltyzing, and committing an embarrassingly lame gotcha, in a privately owned public establishment.

As an owner of a privately owned public establishment he has a right to refuse service, for a variety of reasons. The notion that, according to the shop owner, the anti-abortion posters and the graphics were also an attack on homosexuality in general and him in particular. Upset was appropriate. The shock value, hate-back attack was bad. The so-called Christian bushwhackers got what they deserved, otherwise.

Not that it matters to the principles, or the principals, but I am mildly curious as to whether the shop was crowded or not, what proportion of the crowd were regular customers, and what proportion happened to be gay or how many tables were occupied by evangelicals. Was the crowd interested, embarrassed, put off, agitated, amused, evenly divided or united in civic outrage? How did anyone else in the joint feel or what did any else do or say in the moment? Did a table of nice Lutherans leave quietly? Was the street outside full of rabble and riot? Was it a gay pride day or in a rainbow neighborhood? The gutter mouth owner was right about context.

Dude, it was Seattle.

Jim Mahan
10-10-2017, 06:30 AM
This from the caption below the photo in the OP,
...posting graphic pro-life messages... bothers me. The photo shows the shop owner holding one of the asshole's messages, with the image of a bloody, aborted fetus. That isn't a pro-life graphic. It is a hate-group lie graphic.

The shop owner holding the folded paper with the blood red ink looks a lot like Billy Bob Thornton. Makes it easier to imagine the 'f*** in the a**' tirade.

Jim Mahan
10-10-2017, 06:31 AM
Dude, it was Seattle.

There's that.

Duncan Gibbs
10-10-2017, 07:27 AM
If a LGBTI person was refused a wedding cake by a baker on the basis of the fact the cake was for an LGBTI wedding, that person would probably be angry, and more than likely take their business elsewhere, leaving the bigoted homophobic baker to stew in their own juice and lose more business and money.

This group of anti-abortion homophobic bigots thought it'd be a great idea to disrupt a private business with their brand of hate. If the shop had have been mine, they would have received more than the verbal lashing they were given. My levels of tolerance for hateful intolerance have evaporated.

ishmael
10-10-2017, 07:27 AM
I'm actually beginning to lean libertarian on these sort of things. If I run a private business, and don't want to offer my services to whomever, for whatever reason, so what? Let the market decide.

Someone will doubtless bring up the Jim Crow south with its segregated lunch counters and washrooms, etc. But is that really what is going on here, or in the case of the devout Christian baker refusing to make a cake for a homosexual couple? Jim Crow was state sanctioned discrimination, whereas this is...well, just what is it?

Questioning assumptions in Bangor.

Glen Longino
10-10-2017, 07:28 AM
Typical Anti-US thread by Rum!
Why does Rum hate the US?

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 07:30 AM
Typical Anti-US thread by Rum!
Why does Rum hate the US?

Because he wants to move to the US, but could not get in?

mdh
10-10-2017, 07:34 AM
If a LGBTI person was refused a wedding cake by a baker on the basis of the fact the cake was for an LGBTI wedding, that person would probably be angry, and more than likely take their business elsewhere, leaving the bigoted homophobic baker to stew in their own juice and lose more business and money.

This group of anti-abortion homophobic bigots thought it'd be a great idea to disrupt a private business with their brand of hate. If the shop had have been mine, they would have received more than the verbal lashing they were given. My levels of tolerance for hateful intolerance have evaporated.

You're scarin people. Hehe

L.W. Baxter
10-10-2017, 08:13 AM
On that basis do you support the Baker that declined to be forced to make a 'gay cake'?

If a cake can be made gay, what chance do the rest of us have???!!!

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2017, 08:29 AM
Maybe the op is indeed a troll....

But, for the record, I believe in the notion that public accommodation, as a law, means that service cannot be refused to ANYONE... unless, of course, a person is disruptive.

The point, however, was well-made: if we do NOT have a public accommodation law, then Christian evangelists in coffee shops, as well as gay couples in bakeries, can be refused service. Imagine what sort of society we would have, if anyone can be refused, for any arbitrary reason.

Yeadon
10-10-2017, 08:34 AM
I'm going to stop by Bedlam this morning to spend a few dollars. Great coffee shop.

AlanMc
10-10-2017, 08:37 AM
i think a shop owner should be able to deny service to anyone. the gay cake baker and this guy. was the guy over the top? sure. but that's his deal. question though, what does the anti abortion literature have to do with the gay rantings?

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 08:40 AM
Maybe the op is indeed a troll....

But, for the record, I believe in the notion that public accommodation, as a law, means that service cannot be refused to ANYONE... unless, of course, a person is disruptive.

The point, however, was well-made: if we do NOT have a public accommodation law, then Christian evangelists in coffee shops, as well as gay couples in bakeries, can be refused service. Imagine what sort of society we would have, if anyone can be refused, for any arbitrary reason.


for any arbitrary reason would be unacceptable. http://1ourvoicemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/whites-1.jpg However removing the ability to to manage disruptive or other behaviour that harms your business would be a tad totalitarian.

Jim Mahan
10-10-2017, 08:46 AM
...what does the anti abortion literature have to do with the gay rantings?

According to the article, according to the shop owner, the screed included the idea, in the printed matter, that homosexuality in society brings the abortion mentality; that 'gayness' breeds baby murderers. I think I'd be incensed, too.

Yeadon
10-10-2017, 09:06 AM
Headlines from the left:

Gay Coffee Shop Owner Kicks out Anti-Abortion Activists, Video ... (http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/10/09/25460206/gay-coffee-shop-owner-kicks-out-anti-abortion-activists-video-goes-viral)
TheStranger.com-15 hours ago
Belltown's Bedlam Coffee has become the latest Seattle business to get a bunch of conservatives' chastity belts in a knot. The drama started ...

Gay coffee shop owner throws out Christian zealots whose leaflets ... (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/09/gay-coffee-shop-owner-throws-out-christian-zealots-whose-leaflets-feature-rainbow-hands-dripping-blood/)
PinkNews-22 hours ago

Heroic Gay Coffee Shop Owner Kicks Out Anti-LGBTQ Group, Says ... (https://www.out.com/news-opinion/2017/10/09/heroic-gay-coffee-shop-owner-kicks-out-anti-gay-group-says-hed-fck-christ)
Out Magazine-16 hours ago

A gay coffee shop owner kicked out religious mouth-breathers ... (https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2017/10/gay-coffee-shop-owner-kicked-religious-mouth-breathers-conservatives-outraged/)
LGBTQ Nation-Oct 9, 2017

Headlines from the right:

Christian Pro-Life Group Kicked Out of Seattle Coffee Shop by Gay ... (http://freebeacon.com/politics/christian-pro-life-group-kicked-seattle-coffee-shop-gay-owner/)
Washington Free Beacon-21 hours ago

VIDEO: Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of his shop (https://www.conservativereview.com/articles/video-gay-coffee-shop-owner-kicks-christians-out-of-his-shop)

Conservative Review-21 hours ago
When the group stopped in Bedlam Coffee for a drink and a rest, they ... Shouldn't the gay coffee shop owner be castigated in the media for ...

VIDEO: Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of his shop (https://www.conservativereview.com/articles/video-gay-coffee-shop-owner-kicks-christians-out-of-his-shop)

Conservative Review-21 hours ago
When the group stopped in Bedlam Coffee for a drink and a rest, they ... Shouldn't the gay coffee shop owner be castigated in the media for ...

VIDEO: Gay Coffee Shop Owner Shouts Profanities at Christian Pro ... (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/10/07/video-gay-coffee-shop-owner-shouts-profanities-at-christian-pro-life-group-kicks-them-out/)

Breitbart News-Oct 7, 2017
The Washington Times reports that the group, called Abolish Human Abortion, decided to order drinks at Seattle's Bedlam Coffee after passing ...

Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of cafe, goes on vulgar ... (http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/10/07/gay-coffee-shop-owner-kicks-christians-out-of-cafe-goes-on-vulgar-rant-it-was-all-caught-on-video/)
TheBlaze.com-Oct 7, 2017

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 09:08 AM
This from the caption below the photo in the OP, bothers me. The photo shows the shop owner holding one of the asshole's messages, with the image of a bloody, aborted fetus.

Did I read it wrong? The customer was posting them outside on the street. If he didn't post it on the shop owner's window or in his store, then was it the shop owner who brought it into the store?

This whole refusal of service issue is a double-edged sword and it should have been predicted it would cut both ways.

paulf
10-10-2017, 09:09 AM
BTW do you support this coffee shop owner's actions?

In this one case I support the owner, not because his methods or demeanor was correct, but because it was a case of turn about is fair play pushed off the edge.

I don't believe in denial of service to anyone who is behaving reasonably. Folks were making a point and it went sideways.

Been there done that.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 09:10 AM
In this one case I support the owner, not because his methods or demeanor was correct, but because it was a case of turn about is fair play pushed off the edge.

I don't believe in denial of service to anyone who is behaving reasonably. Folks were making a point and it went sideways.

Been there done that.

I think I have to agree with you. I sympathize, but I can't condone the shop owner's behavior unless the customer brought this behavior into the store.

wizbang 13
10-10-2017, 09:48 AM
"Christian" advocates.
Here we have today's "christians", all spun up about other peoples behavior.

AlanMc
10-10-2017, 09:56 AM
According to the article, according to the shop owner, the screed included the idea, in the printed matter, that homosexuality in society brings the abortion mentality; that 'gayness' breeds baby murderers. I think I'd be incensed, too.


ahhh, didn't see that part. i get pro-life mentality, i get pro-choice mentality, but how do you draw a line between abortion and gays? someone has their wires crossed.

still, i think as a private business owner, you should be able to deny service for whatever reason you want. when that hurts your business it's your own fault.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 09:57 AM
I've been uncomfortable with this law from the beginning and I think I finally understand why.

There is a fundamental difference between requiring that a person be allowed into a group like a club vs requiring that a service be provided to an individual. It's not always different. Doctors can not be allowed to refuse treatment, but if a plumber refuses service that just opens the market for another plumber. If a baker will not bake a cake for a gay wedding, then let it be known and I'll buy my bread and such from another baker. But a Jewish baker really should not be required to bake for a neo-Nazi party. The law is simply too broad.

Phillip Allen
10-10-2017, 10:29 AM
on further reading and I hope a better understanding of what happened... I'd have kicked them out too

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 10:33 AM
on further reading and I hope a better understanding of what happened... I'd have kicked them out too

Could you be specific? That is a genuine request.

Jim Bow
10-10-2017, 10:36 AM
Let us not forget, these guys were not refused because they were "christian activists" they were refused because they were simple a$$holes.

BrianY
10-10-2017, 10:43 AM
I think it is entirely correct to prohibit the denial of service on the basis of race, gender or sexual orientation. I also think it's entirely correct to allow shop owners to deny service to patrons on other grounds such as their behavior.

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 10:46 AM
Were these guys rude or violent?

I think that the word you want is "offensive" as in giving offence.

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2017, 10:47 AM
Sounds like you disagree with the coffee shopkeeper's actions.

I believe the shopkeeper was engaging in an act of civil disobedience.... presuming, of course, that we DO have a 'public accommodation' law, something I believe in strongly.

The key element of any act of civil disobedience, by the way, is the acknowledgement that the person who is being 'civilly disobedient' is willing to accept the consequences of their action. Therefore, if we do indeed have a law against discrimination by those who operate a public accommodation, then the shopkeeper is guilty, and should suffer the consequences (a fine or jail time?)

AND, if this is true, then the baker who refuses the business of an LGBTQ couple, is ALSO guilty, and deserves the very same penalty.

Do I disagree, in principle, with the shopkeeper's actions? Certainly.... just as I would disagree with the baker who refuses gay business.

At the very same time, I will applaud the shopkeeper for being willing to accept the consequences of his act of civil disobedience (as long as he accepts the consequences, of course), in order to demonstrate an important issue.

I STRONGLY disagree with ANY law that permits someone to base his discrimination on a 'deeply held religious belief'... because the Constitution does NOT differentiate by religion. ANY 'deeply held belief', whether it is based on religion, OR NOT, is the same thing.

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 10:52 AM
I believe the shopkeeper was engaging in an act of civil disobedience.... presuming, of course, that we DO have a 'public accommodation' law, something I believe in strongly.

The key element of any act of civil disobedience, by the way, is the acknowledgement that the person who is being 'civilly disobedient' is willing to accept the consequences of their action. Therefore, if we do indeed have a law against discrimination by those who operate a public accommodation, then the shopkeeper is guilty, and should suffer the consequences (a fine or jail time?)

AND, if this is true, then the baker who refuses the business of an LGBTQ couple, is ALSO guilty, and deserves the very same penalty.

Do I disagree, in principle, with the shopkeeper's actions? Certainly.... just as I would disagree with the baker who refuses gay business.

At the very same time, I will applaud the shopkeeper for being willing to accept the consequences of his act of civil disobedience (as long as he accepts the consequences, of course), in order to demonstrate an important issue.

I STRONGLY disagree with ANY law that permits someone to base his discrimination on a 'deeply held religious belief'... because the Constitution does NOT differentiate by religion. ANY 'deeply held belief', whether it is based on religion, OR NOT, is the same thing.

How about looking after your business and your staffs livelihoods by removing something that may cause your customers to go elsewhere?

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 10:53 AM
Did they give him a pamphlet?

Did they force a pamphlet on him?

How were they offensive, because they were pro-life?

Clutching at straws Rummy, clutching at straws. ;)

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 10:59 AM
Try not to deflect.

Basic question. How were they offensive?

Why not phone Mr. Borgman, who also said that anti-abortion imagery was hidden within his shop and ask him?

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2017, 10:59 AM
How about looking after your business and your staffs livelihoods by removing something that may cause your customers to go elsewhere?

Sure, it's a tough call.... but I don't think it's hard to differentiate between a patron whose behavior is ordinarily offensive to others, and one whose lifestyle or beliefs are only perceived as offensive because of prejudice.

The baker who refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple wasn't rejecting the business because the business was a threat to the business itself..... he was doing so out of a personally held belief.

The place where it becomes VERY slippery is the inclusion of the 'deeply held religious belief' criteria. Someone will have to explain to me what the difference is, between a 'deeply held religious belief', and any other belief which is also deeply held, but not based on any particular religion?

If the baker can reject the gay couple's business, then why can't a racist reject the business of a black patron, on the basis of a 'deeply held belief'? Why do we provide special status to beliefs which are 'religious' in nature.... and exactly WHAT religions deserve this elevated status?

For example, suppose a bakery operated by a Sunni Muslim decides that he will not serve a patron who is a Shia Muslim?

Think about it...

Flying Orca
10-10-2017, 11:02 AM
Does one have the right not to serve somebody because of their beliefs?

It seems to me they weren't denied service because of their beliefs, they were denied service because of their actions.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 11:04 AM
I believe the shopkeeper was engaging in an act of civil disobedience....

Probably, but that is not a defense. MLK did his time in Birmingham Jail for an act of civil disobedience. In fact, getting arrested is really the point.

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 11:05 AM
Sure, it's a tough call.... but I don't think it's hard to differentiate between a patron whose behavior is ordinarily offensive to others, and one whose lifestyle or beliefs are only perceived as offensive because of prejudice.

The baker who refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple wasn't rejecting the business because the business was a threat to the business itself..... he was doing so out of a personally held belief.

The place where it becomes VERY slippery is the inclusion of the 'deeply held religious belief' criteria. Someone will have to explain to me what the difference is, between a 'deeply held religious belief', and any other belief which is also deeply held, but not based on any particular religion?

If the baker can reject the gay couple's business, then why can't a racist reject the business of a black patron, on the basis of a 'deeply held belief'? Why do we provide special status to beliefs which are 'religious' in nature.... and exactly WHAT religions deserve this elevated status?

For example, suppose a bakery operated by a Sunni Muslim decides that he will not serve a patron who is a Shia Muslim?

Think about it...

The legislators who make our laws already did. Ours may be setting higher standards than yours, but the legal reasoning is settled. Society holds that some beliefs should not be acted on, no matter how deeply held.

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2017, 11:07 AM
Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964) defines public accommodations as a limited number of facilities which are open to the public. Examples include hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters, and all other public accommodations engaged in interstate commerce; exempted are private clubs without defining the term "private".

Under United States federal law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_law), public accommodations must be accessible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessibility) to the handicapped and may not discriminate on the basis of "race, color, religion, or national origin."[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_accommodations#cite_note-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_accommodations#cite_note-2)

Private clubs were specifically exempted under federal law[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_accommodations#cite_note-exempt-e-3) as well as religious organizations.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_accommodations#cite_note-4) Title II's definition of public accommodation is limited to "any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests," and therefore is inapplicable to churches. Section 12187 of the ADA also exempts religious organizations from public accommodation laws,[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_accommodations#cite_note-5) but religious organizations are encouraged to comply.

Various states in the United States, in a number of nonuniform laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Act), provide for nondiscrimination in public accommodation.

Note that 'sexual orientation' is not included in the list of prohibited discriminations..... although some states do add that to their own laws.

AlanMc
10-10-2017, 11:07 AM
Sure, it's a tough call.... but I don't think it's hard to differentiate between a patron whose behavior is ordinarily offensive to others, and one whose lifestyle or beliefs are only perceived as offensive because of prejudice.

The baker who refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple wasn't rejecting the business because the business was a threat to the business itself..... he was doing so out of a personally held belief.

The place where it becomes VERY slippery is the inclusion of the 'deeply held religious belief' criteria. Someone will have to explain to me what the difference is, between a 'deeply held religious belief', and any other belief which is also deeply held, but not based on any particular religion?

If the baker can reject the gay couple's business, then why can't a racist reject the business of a black patron, on the basis of a 'deeply held belief'? Why do we provide special status to beliefs which are 'religious' in nature.... and exactly WHAT religions deserve this elevated status?

For example, suppose a bakery operated by a Sunni Muslim decides that he will not serve a patron who is a Shia Muslim?

Think about it...


why not allow a private business owner deny anyone for any reason? as long as we're not talking about the fire dept, the police dept, medical care, or any other essential service. coffee shops and bakeries? who cares. if they want to run off 1/3 to 2/3 of their potential customer base b/c they're bigoted, then let them and watch them go out of business.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 11:09 AM
Why not phone Mr. Borgman, who also said that anti-abortion imagery was hidden within his shop and ask him?

This is an issue that I'd like to understand better. Where was it hidden? In a briefcase, or out for public view and distribution. I don't see how or why the customers could have hidden it very well.

I do know one thing: If the owner of a coffee shop says the following to me or anyone else in his store I will be buying my coffee elsewhere if just for sanitary reasons.


“If I go get my boyfriend and f- him in the a— right here you’re going to tolerate that?” Mr. Borgman (https://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/ben-borgman/) asked.
“That would be your choice,” Mr. Sutherland (https://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/jonathan-sutherland/) said, the conservative website Red State reported (https://www.redstate.com/brandon_morse/2017/10/06/gay-coffee-shop-owner-refuses-serve-christians-goes-anti-christian-rant/) Friday.
“Are you going to tolerate it? Answer my f-ing question! No, you’re going to sit right here and f-ing watch it! […] Well then I don’t have to f-ing tolerate this! Leave! All of you. Tell all your f-ing friends, don’t f-ing come here.”

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2017, 11:10 AM
why not allow a private business owner deny anyone for any reason?

On the base of race, for example? You're hoping for the return of Jim Crow laws? Maybe separate water fountains for blacks and whites?

Sorry, but it sounds like you're caught in a 1950's time warp... we long ago decided that discrimination in public accommodations was unconstitutional. In the 1964 Civil Rights Act.... or maybe you don't believe in Civil Rights....

Flying Orca
10-10-2017, 11:10 AM
why not allow a private business owner deny anyone for any reason?

Because when businesses owned by the advantaged exclude the disadvantaged, the disadvantaged become second-class citizens, with second-class lives and second-class opportunities. Supposedly, one of the aims of your constitution is preventing that from happening.

AlanMc
10-10-2017, 11:12 AM
are we still in the 1950's? does anyone think "whites only" water fountains would make a comeback?

Flying Orca
10-10-2017, 11:13 AM
Did you view the video?

No. I generally don't do video.


Which actions? Being in possession of a pamphlet that somebody didn't like?

No, distributing hate literature in front of an establishment (and possibly within an establishment) owned and operated by a member of one of the groups targeted by the hate literature.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 11:14 AM
are we still in the 1950's? does anyone think "whites only" water fountains would make a comeback?

In some places, yes.

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2017, 11:14 AM
are we still in the 1950's? does anyone think "whites only" water fountains would make a comeback?

I suspect that there are still a considerable number of people who wish it were so.

More to the point, do you actually support the idea that those who operate public accommodations should be permitted to discriminate, for any reason? Do you believe that the 1964 Civil Rights Act was unconstitutional?

Flying Orca
10-10-2017, 11:16 AM
are we still in the 1950's? does anyone think "whites only" water fountains would make a comeback?

Oh, come on. The "put the white back in the White House" crowd, and a good chunk of the Trump supporters out there, would wet themselves with glee if Jim Crow came back, and they'd be quite happy to make it happen.

The greatest legacy of Obama's presidency might well be the way it brought the USA's festering racism out into the open.

mmd
10-10-2017, 11:17 AM
^ And enforce it with their camo'd AR-15's...

Flying Orca
10-10-2017, 11:18 AM
...with bump stocks.

Norman Bernstein
10-10-2017, 11:18 AM
^ And enforce it with their camo'd AR-15's...

Don't forget the bump stocks.

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 11:18 AM
This is an issue that I'd like to understand better. Where was it hidden? In a briefcase, or out for public view and distribution. I don't see how or why the customers could have hidden it very well.


You are at risk of being silly. Hidden in a briefcase?
Seriously?

How about tucked into one of these so it fell out when a customer lifted the menue out?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a4/19/7e/a4197e93df9795271fb07b656af99fa3--menu-design-cafe-design.jpg

seanz
10-10-2017, 11:19 AM
“They were ready with that camera,” the owner wrote. “I was baptized Catholic, Roman Catholic actually, I’ve been to a few bible studies, read the entire book, more than once. To my understanding, and to speak in the religious vernacular; these people are working for Satan. The great trickster has deluded them into believing that hate is love, that rage is peace, and that lies are truth. The God I knew, the Jesus I was taught about would absolutely never ever print a poster with a hideous dead baby representation at ‘what was clearly meant to insinuate’ at the hands of gays … suffice to the say the poster was gross, and the text on the back? Holy cow, whoever wrote that is in a lot of pain. I spoke to them in their own language.”

AlanMc
10-10-2017, 11:20 AM
I suspect that there are still a considerable number of people who wish it were so.

More to the point, do you actually support the idea that those who operate public accommodations should be permitted to discriminate, for any reason? Do you believe that the 1964 Civil Rights Act was unconstitutional?


honestly, i don't know. discrimination is obviously bad. but i have mixed feelings about telling a private business owner that they have to interact with everyone no matter what. if they own the building and own the business... why can't they do whatever they want in their own establishment?

Flying Orca
10-10-2017, 11:26 AM
if they own the building and own the business... why can't they do whatever they want in their own establishment?

Because when all of the advantaged people in a society "do whatever they want" and discriminate against the disadvantaged, the result is systemic​ discrimination, and that is bad for people.

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 11:28 AM
Was it or were they?

Give him a call why don't you?

Flying Orca
10-10-2017, 11:30 AM
So since you didn't watch it, you are not in possession of the evidence therein and thus you comment from a lesser informed position.

If I have made a claim that is not in evidence, please feel free to point it out.


Is 'pro-life' literature is 'hate literature'?

It can be, and from what I have read of this case, it sounds like it was.


Is it against the law to distribute 'pro-life' pamphlets on the public sidewalk/pavement?

That depends upon legislation specific to the jurisdiction. In some places, it may be, particularly if - as previously noted - the pamphlets constitute hate literature.


Do 'pro-life' target/hate homosexuals or coffee shop owners?

Again, as previously noted, it appears that the literature distributed by the group in question did​ target gays. In other words, it was hate literature.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 11:31 AM
You are at risk of being silly. Hidden in a briefcase?
Seriously?

How about tucked into one of these so it fell out when a customer lifted the menue out?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a4/19/7e/a4197e93df9795271fb07b656af99fa3--menu-design-cafe-design.jpg

I'm not being silly. I am trying to see if the owner overreacted. I mean, "f*** my old boyfriend right here" is a bit of an overreaction, don't you think?

Do you know that is where it was hidden? I saw no reference to it in the quote. I would genuinely like to know. I think it's an important question.

Yeadon
10-10-2017, 11:32 AM
Post from Bedlam Coffee, as found on Zomato (https://www.zomato.com/seattle/bedlam-coffee-belltown):


Bedlam Coffee
This business is in the news and as such many reviews are in response to that news item, not a good representation of the products or services offered here.

This response is posted for people that like to see both sides before they make a decision.

Just to be clear, these are the people that were thrown out [ thetenthmark.com ] visit the page, look at the hateful disgusting things they are about. They came in in hopes of disruption (in their own words-BUT WE HAVE COME TO INVADE YOUR SAFE SPACE.) The pictures of aborted fetus' at the hands of gays that we found hidden in the store are possibly the most offensive images I've ever seen. They spent the day putting stickers on everything they could in the neighborhood. the hypocrisy of these groups is truly profound.

No one was or ever would be thrown out because they were Christian. Members of this group were thrown out of more than just here this weekend. We were just more colorful I guess. They could have simply left, but chose to challenge the owner who answered those challenges in kind. There's been a sign on the door for years that reads "No @$$holes" If you feel the need to get in people's faces about who they are or what they do that means your an @$$hole. You wanna stand outside and preach that garbage, go right ahead. But you won't use this place to coordinate your rampages.
PS to that group, why don't you show the WHOLE video? I mean you had your phone out before I opened the door so...

Here's what they did in Seattle parks.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Origami-butterflies-just-part-of-anti-abortion-12237965.php

And Hey while we've got such a large audience at the moment...
There are a lot of great groups out there doing some great work, here are just a few.

Planned Parenthood
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/planned-parenthood-southeast/get-involved/donate-locally

Safe Place
http://www.nationalsafeplace.org/

It Get's Better
https://secure.itgetsbetter.org/page/contribute/default

Mary's Place
http://www.marysplaceseattle.org/

Plymouth Housing
https://www.plymouthhousing.org/how-you-can-help/donate/

St Jude's
https://www.stjude.org/

And if your still reading then heck we'll toss a commercial for the shop on here, it's your dime.

Bedlam Coffee in Beautiful Belltown
Come check out our extensive collection of board games.
Check out our variety of Mochas, The Rose Mocha is a particular fave of many. Or the Nutella Mocha if you really wanna bust out. Larger than average selection of loose leaf teas too. Fresh locally source Dairy and All the best milk alternatives, including Coconut and Almond.
Everybody at Bedlam is from the neighborhood so feel free to ask us where to go for a drink or a bite to eat, we'll keep you right here in Belltown and you'll never want for anything else.
Are you a church group planning a charitable event? We've got a meeting room you can use. Two in fact. (don't believe The hype, you are in deed welcome, geesh.)
Our company has been active in the community for Over 8 years. And will continue to be, not terribly political but kinda outspoken on hate.


"If what you do is done in love, then we are brothers."


I added red for emphasis, btw.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 11:36 AM
The pictures of aborted fetus' at the hands of gays that we found hidden in the store are possibly the most offensive images I've ever seen.


If that is accurate, then the correct way to deal with it is to quietly and calmly destroy the material, ask the patron if they put it there, and ask them to leave quietly if they did because their actions are unfair to the other patrons. You keep it about the patrons and not about yourself. Either way, report it to the police. You don't make a scene. You don't bring up irrelevant remarks about your own sexual orientation. You don't shout about having sex with your boyfriend in the store.

seanz
10-10-2017, 11:40 AM
Dont make a scene?


Worst advice ever

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 11:41 AM
I'm not being silly. I am trying to see if the owner overreacted. I mean, "f*** my old boyfriend right here" is a bit of an overreaction, don't you think?

Do you know that is where it was hidden? I saw no reference to it in the quote. I would genuinely like to know. I think it's an important question.

No, we neither of us know where they were hidden. But if you wanted to hide leaflets that you knew the proprietor would refuse you permission to post, that would be a better strategy than leaving a briefcase full under every table, yes?

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 11:43 AM
No, we neither of us know where they were hidden. But if you wanted to hide leaflets that you knew the proprietor would refuse you permission to post, that would be a better strategy than leaving a briefcase full under every table, yes?

If that were my intent.

My point is that the owner became hysterical, so I am not inclined to accept his unsubstantiated and incomplete statement that they were hidden for the other customers to find. I think the details are important.

I think the owner is about as big a nut job as the customers in question. I don't want to have anything to do with any of them.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 11:44 AM
Dont make a scene?

Worst advice ever

Well, it's certainly the most adult advice so far.

The customers wanted to create a scene. Either they wanted another customer to be shocked by the literature or they wanted the owner to go nuts in front of everyone. They got their wish.

Yeadon
10-10-2017, 11:46 AM
Hmmm, let's see if I can add any further documentation for your consideration. We should take a look at the flier. Might as well see if there's something in there that would anger someone who is gay.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 11:47 AM
Hmmm, let's see if I can add any further documentation for your consideration.

But are you the real Yeadon, or Yeadon's sock puppet? :)

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 11:49 AM
If that were my intent.

My point is that the owner became hysterical, so I am not inclined to accept his unsubstantiated and incomplete statement that they were hidden for the other customers to find. I think the details are important.

I think the owner is about as big a nut job as the customers in question. I don't want to have anything to do with any of them.

So in addition to being an hysterical gay nut-job he is a liar who makes stuff up? You really have taken a down on him have you not. ;)

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 11:56 AM
So in addition to being an hysterical gay nut-job he is a liar who makes stuff up? You really have taken a down on him have you not. ;)

I am amazed that you have never experienced a person, generally of good intent, who loses their perspective, makes assumptions and misrepresentations in good faith, and winds up hysterical. God knows I have experienced them.

A coffee shop owner who shouts in front of other customers about "f****** my old boyfriend right here while you watch" is not reliable in anything else he says. He has lost control and I would throw my coffee away and go to another store.

By the way, this has nothing to do with him being gay. I don't want a straight store owner having sex with his wife of 40 years right in front of me, either, and I would not trust one who shouted that he would.

In the words of a former project manager, "A-hole one, meet a-hole two." Both are a-holes and I would not trust either.

Flying Orca
10-10-2017, 11:57 AM
Amazing.

Sorry nuance is so difficult for you. It must be nice, living in a black and white world, but mine is almost entirely shades of grey.

mmd
10-10-2017, 11:58 AM
No, the shop owner should not have unloaded on them. He should have calmly and matter-of-factly informed them that they might better like the coffee elsewhere, maybe in their home neighbourhood, because the coffee that they would receive in his shop would be cold, bitter, black and service is shoddy and very, very slow. <wink,grin>

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 12:05 PM
I am amazed that you have never experienced a person, generally of good intent, who loses their perspective, makes assumptions and misrepresentations in good faith, and winds up hysterical. God knows I have experienced them.

A coffee shop owner who shouts in front of other customers about "f****** my old boyfriend right here while you watch" is not reliable in anything else he says. He has lost control and I would throw my coffee away and go to another store.

By the way, this has nothing to do with him being gay. I don't want a straight store owner having sex with his wife of 40 years right in front of me, either, and I would not trust one who shouted that he would.

In the words of a former project manager, "A-hole one, meet a-hole two." Both are a-holes and I would not trust either.

Bottom line is, whilst you are not being hysterical, you are making stuff up.

There is one hell of a lot of speculation in the absence of facts in this thread. We have only three direct quotes, one of which was filtered by the media, The other 100 posts are just opinion.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 12:23 PM
Bottom line is, whilst you are not being hysterical, you are making stuff up.

Well, educate me. What am I making up? I know I am asking questions that you and others have not answered. I also know that the OP is so disgusting that I can hardly stand to read it. I am offended by the behavior of both sides.

What am I making up?

Can you yet tell me where or how the material was hidden? Do you have any specifics other than a store owner who threatened to have sex in front of the customers said they hid it in his store?



There is one hell of a lot of speculation in the absence of facts in this thread. We have only three direct quotes, one of which was filtered by the media, The other 100 posts are just opinion.

Yes. So I am asking questions and describing my disgust with both sides. What am I making up?

Flying Orca
10-10-2017, 12:33 PM
Sounds like you need more sunshine.

Hopefully you don't suffer from Seasonal Affective Disorder.

As a child I became accustomed to the sun remaining below the horizon for three months in winter. It has never bothered me.

Peerie Maa
10-10-2017, 12:38 PM
Well, educate me. What am I making up? I know I am asking questions that you and others have not answered. I also know that the OP is so disgusting that I can hardly stand to read it. I am offended by the behavior of both sides.

What am I making up?

Can you yet tell me where or how the material was hidden? Do you have any specifics other than a store owner who threatened to have sex in front of the customers said they hid it in his store?



Yes. So I am asking questions and describing my disgust with both sides. What am I making up?

A clear statement that you believe he was telling porkies.

I am not inclined to accept his unsubstantiated and incomplete statement that they were hidden for the other customers to find.
A decision reached by you based on your unsubstantiated opinion.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 01:05 PM
A clear statement that you believe he was telling porkies.

I think the owner was hysterical and that makes his comments untrustworthy.

If I said here what he said in that store, Scot would ban me for life and rightfully so.


A decision reached by you based on your unsubstantiated opinion.

As your decision is equally unsubstantiated. The remark that you take as truth is uninformed by any second witness or any details at all.

This whole right-to-service law is a double-edged sword. I don't necessarily agree with it, although I think it is badly written, but you and others have to accept it will cut both ways. It does not only work the way you want it to work.

If the customers were asked to leave because their behavior was outside the societal norm (specifically, showing pictures of abortions in a coffee shop) then the owner would be within his rights. He chose to make it about his own sexual orientation, lost his composure, and is now equally in the wrong.

johnw
10-10-2017, 05:26 PM
The "Christian" activists did not manage to provoke the owner by harassing his customers outside, so they came in to harass him.

A shopkeeper can kick out people for bad behavior, period. If they won't leave, he can call the cops and have them cited for criminal trespass. Note that he can't refuse to serve them because of their faith, but he can certainly kick them out for offensive behavior.

I won't post the image that upset the owner, but it's here:

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/09/gay-coffee-shop-owner-throws-out-christian-zealots-whose-leaflets-feature-rainbow-hands-dripping-blood/

If that doesn't offend you, there's something wrong with you.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 05:35 PM
I won't post the image that upset the owner, but it's here:

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/09/gay-coffee-shop-owner-throws-out-christian-zealots-whose-leaflets-feature-rainbow-hands-dripping-blood/

If that doesn't offend you, there's something wrong with you.

I don't think the question is whether it is offensive. I can't imagine anyone not being offended by that.

The questions are (1) How did it get into the hands of the owner and potentially the customers, and (2) Why didn't the owner keep his head and call the police? He handed that double-edged sword to his enemy and gave them the opportunity they wanted to swing it. Now they are and they will. It was dumb.

Whatever they did outside is irrelevant.

Chip-skiff
10-10-2017, 05:38 PM
The coffeeshop owner did go way over the top with his rant. Good thing he didn't have a gun. :)

If I were a Christian (which I'm glad I'm not) I would be deeply offended at having neo-fascist misogynist slimebag troublemakers called "Christian activists."

Tom Montgomery
10-10-2017, 05:39 PM
The coffeeshop owner did go way over the top with his rant.So what?

Provocation elicited the desired response.

Nothing more to see here.

Phil Y
10-10-2017, 05:41 PM
If a LGBTI person was refused a wedding cake by a baker on the basis of the fact the cake was for an LGBTI wedding, that person would probably be angry, and more than likely take their business elsewhere, leaving the bigoted homophobic baker to stew in their own juice and lose more business and money.

This group of anti-abortion homophobic bigots thought it'd be a great idea to disrupt a private business with their brand of hate. If the shop had have been mine, they would have received more than the verbal lashing they were given. My levels of tolerance for hateful intolerance have evaporated.

Duncan, you are starting to sound a bit hatefully intolerant, and potentially violent, if I interpolate correctly.

johnw
10-10-2017, 06:37 PM
So what?

Provocation elicited the desired response.

Nothing more to see here.
Exactly.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 06:48 PM
I won't post the image that upset the owner, but it's here:

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/09/gay-coffee-shop-owner-throws-out-christian-zealots-whose-leaflets-feature-rainbow-hands-dripping-blood/

If that doesn't offend you, there's something wrong with you.

Maybe we can take this in another direction.

Why does the image in the above post involve 2 hands painted in the rainbow colors held above the dead fetus?

I mean, gays are not associated with abortion. Isn't this obvious?

What sick mind associates the equal rights for gays and abortion? They have nothing to do with each other.

Phillip Allen
10-10-2017, 06:55 PM
Could you be specific? That is a genuine request.

no solicitors on this premises not allowed

johnw
10-10-2017, 06:59 PM
Maybe we can take this in another direction.

Why does the image in the above post involve 2 hands painted in the rainbow colors held above the dead fetus?

I mean, gays are not associated with abortion. Isn't this obvious?

What sick mind associates the equal rights for gays and abortion? They have nothing to do with each other.
It's about who they hate, not about some logical connection.

CWSmith
10-10-2017, 07:04 PM
It's about who they hate, not about some logical connection.

That's a hell of a way to live a life! They're just drinking poison.

Flying Orca
10-10-2017, 07:26 PM
That's a hell of a way to live a life! They're just drinking poison.

Well, sure. But unfortunately, hate is what a lot of "Christians" dispense these days.

Dave Hadfield
10-10-2017, 09:42 PM
What a horrible place it would have been for a customer. On one hand you've got images of bloody fetuses, on the other you've got the owner talking loudly about sodomy with people and deities.

That's enough to put me off my food.

And make the coffee taste funny.

I wouldn't go there anymore...

Chip-skiff
10-10-2017, 09:55 PM
. . .you've got the owner talking loudly about sodomy with people and deities.

Hmmmm. Could I pick the deity?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/af/01/52/af0152c2043e8de317d15802c703e53d.jpg

As far as mentioning sodomy, there's a rich English tradition on the subject, especially in maritime circles: "Ashore, it's wine, women and song, aboard it's rum, bum and 'bacca'.

In The Irrepressible Churchill, compiled by Kay Halle (Robson Books, 1985), Churchill is said to have used a certain phrase in 1913, when he was First Lord of the Admiralty. According to 'an ear-witness', he was having trouble with some of his admirals at a strategy meeting. One of them accused him of having impugned the traditions of the Royal Navy, provoking the reply: 'And what are they? They are rum, sodomy and the lash'.

Duncan Gibbs
10-10-2017, 11:24 PM
Duncan, you are starting to sound a bit hatefully intolerant, and potentially violent, if I interpolate correctly.
Not quite. I would have performed 'on-the-spot' surgery by swiftly connecting my steel caps with their gronicles thereby preventing any possibility of unwanted abortions. Potentially medicinal! :D

Chris Coose
10-11-2017, 07:07 AM
This would be one excellent and positive reason why a shop keeper might pay for old style "protection". (I just was watching Boardwalk Empire).