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Jim Bow
09-27-2017, 07:15 PM
So, it seems that a Kentucky farmer drove to Mexico to visit relatives. Had a nice time and headed for home. At the border, he snapped a phone pic of the traffic, ICE picked him out for a search. Under the seat was a pistol magazine with 3 bullets in it. An ICE agent yelled "We got him!" and arrested the man for "smuggling munitions".
He was cuffed and held for hours and his brand new F150 was confiscated.
It should be pointed out that he's a citizen, he has a Kentucky weapons permit and there's was no firearm in the vehicle. He's suing the federal government. Since it happened, he has made $20,000 in payments on the truck.

oznabrag
09-27-2017, 07:18 PM
Elect a ratfreaker, expect a ratfreaking.

LeeG
09-27-2017, 07:18 PM
Coulda been a terrist!

BrianY
09-27-2017, 07:43 PM
keep our borders safe!

Phillip Allen
09-27-2017, 07:48 PM
what brand was the munitions? if it was made in this country, it could hardly be smuggled in... ?

S.V. Airlie
09-27-2017, 07:58 PM
Depends, if American guns can be smuggled into Mexico, they can be smuggled back to the US. I'd think that would apply to bullets.

Phillip Allen
09-27-2017, 08:00 PM
maybe

S.V. Airlie
09-27-2017, 08:06 PM
It doesn't make sense though BUT, it could be done. Did the guy from Kentucky tell anyone they were there? If not, he smuggled them. Perhaps not knowingly but, being undeclared points to smuggling in the law.

CWSmith
09-27-2017, 08:07 PM
So, it seems that a Kentucky farmer drove to Mexico to visit relatives. Had a nice time and headed for home. At the border, he snapped a phone pic of the traffic, ICE picked him out for a search. Under the seat was a pistol magazine with 3 bullets in it. An ICE agent yelled "We got him!" and arrested the man for "smuggling munitions".
He was cuffed and held for hours and his brand new F150 was confiscated.
It should be pointed out that he's a citizen, he has a Kentucky weapons permit and there's was no firearm in the vehicle. He's suing the federal government. Since it happened, he has made $20,000 in payments on the truck.


Elect a ratfreaker, expect a ratfreaking.

Actually, this is the kind of amoral, low intellect, knuckle dragging, @zz-f*****s that so often work at the border. They like power and they have no real skills.

Phillip Allen
09-27-2017, 08:09 PM
It doesn't make sense though BUT, it could be done. Did the guy from Kentucky tell anyone they were there? If not, he smuggled them. Perhaps not knowingly but, being undeclared points to smuggling in the law.

I think he was taking a bigger chance taking it OUT of the US

Jim Bow
09-27-2017, 08:10 PM
It's 3 friggin bullets. He forgot they were there. For that he looses a $35,000 truck?
Explain how that is a correct application of the law.

Phillip Allen
09-27-2017, 08:15 PM
It's 3 friggin bullets. He forgot they were there. For that he looses a $35,000 truck?
Explain how that is a correct application of the law.

civil forfeiture... the money is a way for the arresting agency to enhance it's revenue legally

look it up... you might be shocked

Garret
09-27-2017, 08:47 PM
A guy here in VT came across the border from Quebec & had his car searched. Searched as in tear out the interior including seats & carpets. They found 2 marijuana seeds under the carpet. This man has never smoked pot & bought the car used.

They impounded the car & its contents - including 3 guitars that he'd been using at a gig in Montreal. He did get his car & guitars back - after thousands spent on attorneys & months of court time. The interior was a total wreck, as they'd just tossed everything back in, with the guitars at the bottom & parked it in their yard with the windows open. The guitars were ruined & rebuilding the interior would've cost more than the car was worth.

To add the final straw, not only was he unable to get compensated for the damage, they charged him daily storage for all the time the car was there.

This was during Bush 2's presidency - but the drug seizure BS goes back to St. Reagan.

ETA: IIRC, it was 2 Martins & a Guild 12 string. IOW - very nice guitars.

George Jung
09-27-2017, 09:08 PM
Obama had changed those rules - but as I understand it, Trump just re-instituted those same, old, confiscatory laws.

skuthorp
09-27-2017, 09:52 PM
I fail to see why anyone would want to go to the US at present. Way too many risks from officialdom let alone any criminal activity.

KenFord
09-27-2017, 10:02 PM
A quick Google search shows this confiscation took place on September 21, 2015. There is plenty to say about our current president, but this one is not on him.

Garret
09-27-2017, 10:04 PM
A quick Google search shows this confiscation took place on September 21, 2015. There is plenty to say about our current president, but this one is not on him.

You are correct. However, Homeland Security has been out of control for years & Trump will not get them more sane.

Ian McColgin
09-27-2017, 10:12 PM
The penalty is a bit excessive but I must say that any shooter who cannot account for all ammunition needs to learn more responsible habits. Leaving ammunition around where a child playing in the car could find them is a good example of how children are harmed by careless firearms habits.

JayInOz
09-27-2017, 11:58 PM
[QUOTE=Ian McColgin;5357041] any shooter who cannot account for all ammunition needs to learn more responsible habits.QUOTE]

A good friend of mine- someone I hunted with for thirty years or more- was driving home from town a couple of years ago on his narrow dirt road after heavy rain. The truck slid off the road on a tight, off camber corner and very gently rolled over onto it's roof. Several dozen bullets- and a bunch of other stuff- rattled down from vents and other hidey holes- my friend said it sounded like a hail storm:) Maybe the customs people could try tipping all the cars upside down to see what falls out. JayInOz

Ian McColgin
09-28-2017, 06:20 AM
To stress again - Republican Trump voters brought back the insane civil forfeiture and confiscation policies. Presumably this is what the gun owners among Trumpkins wanted. But, as a liberal, I personally feel that confiscating the car for a few rounds of ammunition in a stray magazine is wildly insane.

At the same time, I believe it should be a very serious firearms law violation to have a magazine with live rounds so carelessly and absentmindedly left about. There should be shooting rights penalties for that sort of craven negligence.

peb
09-28-2017, 06:33 AM
Civil forfieture laws are a huge example of how Trump and his supporters are not conservative. The was a time, in the 90s when I learned of this problem by reading an article in the National Review. Oh for the days when conservatives actually had conservative principles.
That said, what kind of idiot leaves a gun laying about partially loaded and then forgets about it.
Also, I strongly suspect he should be very happy Mexican police did not find it.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk

Phillip Allen
09-28-2017, 06:35 AM
To stress again - Republican Trump voters brought back the insane civil forfeiture and confiscation policies. Presumably this is what the gun owners among Trumpkins wanted. But, as a liberal, I personally feel that confiscating the car for a few rounds of ammunition in a stray magazine is wildly insane.

At the same time, I believe it should be a very serious firearms law violation to have a magazine with live rounds so carelessly and absentmindedly left about. There should be shooting rights penalties for that sort of craven negligence.

is it craven negligence or is it craven in your political opinion?

Garret
09-28-2017, 06:36 AM
Civil forfieture laws are a huge example of how Trump and his supporters are not conservative. The was a time, in the 90s when I learned of this problem by reading an article in the National Review. Oh for the days when conservatives actually had conservative principles.
That said, what kind of idiot leaves a gun laying about partially loaded and then forgets about it.
Also, I strongly suspect he should be very happy Mexican police did not find it.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk

It was a mag with 3 rounds - not a gun.

skuthorp
09-28-2017, 06:36 AM
I bought an old land rover, abandoned in a Tasmanian paddock for some time. It had dozens of bullets of various calibers laying amongst the dirt and leaves inside, and not a few bullet holes in the truck itself.
We dismantled it for parts and they just kept on coming to light.

Phillip Allen
09-28-2017, 06:37 AM
Civil forfieture laws are a huge example of how Trump and his supporters are not conservative. The was a time, in the 90s when I learned of this problem by reading an article in the National Review. Oh for the days when conservatives actually had conservative principles.
That said, what kind of idiot leaves a gun laying about partially loaded and then forgets about it.
Also, I strongly suspect he should be very happy Mexican police did not find it.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk

what gun?

Canoeyawl
09-28-2017, 11:49 AM
what gun?

Exactly... what does a gun have to do with it?
We are talking about ammunition, 30 years in a Mexican prison for that!

"If you take weapons across the border....

You will become on of the dozens of U.S./Foreign citizens arrested each month for violating Mexico's strict firearm and ammunition laws, whether you knew about the law or not;
You will go to jail and your vehicle will be seized;
You will be separated from family, friends and your job, and likely suffer substantial financial hardship;
You will pay court costs and other fees ranging into the tens of thousands of dollars defending yourself;
And worst of all, you may get up to a 30-year sentence in a Mexican prison if found guilty.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/safari-reader://www.mexonline.com/general/images/mexguns.gifRemember, once you cross the border with a firearm or ammunition it is too late! Ignorance of this law will not get you leniency from the police. You will be arrested and sent to jail. Also, the Mexican judicial system is governed by Napoleonic Law which states that you are presumed guilty and must prove your innocence, the opposite of the U.S. laws."

Ian McColgin
09-28-2017, 12:26 PM
Not only is this case NOT about a gun, but a magazine with three rounds, but also this case is not about Mexican jails. It's not that slightly numb service man who made himself a rightwing cause celeb by taking a fire arm into Mexico. It's about a slightly numb fellow losing his expensive truck to US authorities.

The case shows two different problems.

One is the result of the Reagan crime bill (1984) that got the modern excesses of forfeiture going and diffused them so comprehensivly through federal, state and local agencies that curtailing it is not something a president can do with a stroke of the pen. It's going to take the liberals, who always opposed this, and the "libertarians", who eventually hopped aboard, working together to find any remaining honest Republicans. Curbing law enforcement abuse is bipartisan.

The other is that right now there is no useful law against negligent storage of ammunition. And only some states have sane laws regarding carry of various kinds of firearm in a vehicle.

Canoeyawl
09-28-2017, 12:35 PM
Depending on the individual state, the auto insurance can be cancelled if the vehicle was used in commision of a crime.

Breakaway
09-28-2017, 12:39 PM
When in Mexico, your not in Kansas anymore, Toto.


Kevin

AlanMc
09-28-2017, 12:47 PM
wow, the partisan blame game is STRONG in here. something that happened in 2015 is regan and trump's fault!

Phillip Allen
09-28-2017, 01:12 PM
wow, the partisan blame game is STRONG in here. something that happened in 2015 is regan and trump's fault!

SOP

Ian McColgin
09-28-2017, 01:13 PM
My dear AlanMc, perhaps you were not born yet when Reagan and the Republican congress (with a few Democrats) passed the Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984. But then, you probably were not alive in in 1776 but you likely know something about what happened then. Read up. An excellent syllabus for this topic could be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States .

AlanMc
09-28-2017, 01:15 PM
My dear AlanMc, perhaps you were not born yet when Reagan and the Republican congress (with a few Democrats) passed the Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984. But then, you probably were not alive in in 1776 but you likely know something about what happened then. Read up. An excellent syllabus for this topic could be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States .


i was alive when clinton and obama were around. since they didn't do anything to prevent this, i can say it's their fault as well.

AlanMc
09-28-2017, 02:15 PM
i wonder who was in charge between 2008 and 2014?

https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2015/11/forf.png&w=1484

mmd
09-28-2017, 02:22 PM
The guy who was being blocked at every turn by the Republicans in Congress?

AlanMc
09-28-2017, 02:25 PM
he managed to get the ACA passed without a single R vote. but, what does that have to do with his appointees more than doubling the previous forfeiture amounts?

Ian McColgin
09-28-2017, 02:58 PM
[IMc - It's certainly the case that President Clinton did nothing to even slow our over-incarceration, which Hillary Clinton admitted. Obama's efforts to reduce over-incarceration are being undone by an administration with massive private investments in the private prison industry while Obama's radical limitations of the federal use of forfeiture have been undone by Trump and Sessions already.
History matters and I certainly learned in my own life that living through some great events gives a perspective, but it may be a perspective that limits seeing the whole picture. It takes constant study and revision.
And the point here is what we are living through now. The incident in question did happen during Obama's administration and is a bit complex.]


Customs agents seized a lawful gun owner’s truck over five bullets. Now he’s suing to get it back.

By Christopher Ingraham September 13

On Sept. 21, 2015, Gerardo Serrano was driving from his home in Kentucky to Piedras Negras, Mexico, when his truck was searched by U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents at Texas's Eagle Pass border crossing. After finding a small ammunition clip, the agents took Serrano's truck from him.

Two years later, Customs hasn't charged Serrano with a crime, and they haven't given his truck back either. Now he's suing over what he calls a violation of his constitutional rights.

Customs seized the truck under the laws of civil asset forfeiture, which allow authorities to take cash and property from citizens upon suspicion of criminal wrongdoing. Because it happens under civil law, no criminal conviction — or even criminal charge — is necessary for authorities to take property they believe is connected to a crime.

Supporters call civil forfeiture a valuable crime fighting tool that allows authorities to take criminals' ill-gotten gains and put them to good use. Critics, like Serrano, contend the practice is an invitation to abuse that ensnares thousands of innocent citizens each year.


Serrano's case hinges on the meaning of those five bullets.

* * *

Serrano is originally from Chicago but he's lived on a farm in Kentucky for 20 years. A lifelong Republican, he unsuccessfully ran for a seat in Kentucky's House of Representatives in 2014 on an explicitly pro-Second Amendment platform.

He describes himself as a civil libertarian, and has a concealed carry permit for a Sig Sauer .380 pistol he carries for self-defense.

“I believe in freedom,” he said in an interview with The Washington Post. “That's what made this country great, is our freedom, our liberty.”

In September 2015, Serrano drove his new Ford F-250 pickup from his home in Kentucky to the Mexico border. He was going to visit a cousin he hadn't seen in many years.

He snapped a few photos with his phone as he drove through the checkpoint, planning to upload them to Facebook, just as he says he had been doing throughout his whole trip, to share the experience with friends and family back home.

That's when the trouble started. One of Serrano's photos shows two Customs agents looking in his direction, hands held up. According to his lawsuit, the agents objected to his taking photos.

Those agents waved him over to the side of the road, on the U.S. side of the border, and demanded he hand over his phone.

Serrano said “no.”

Customs declined to say whether there's a prohibition on photography at border crossings.

Customs also declined a request from The Washington Post to speak with the agents involved with the seizure of Serrano's truck, or to provide any report of the incident they may have written up. Serrano submitted a FOIA request for these documents in December 2016. Customs assigned a tracking number to this request, according to his lawsuit, but has not otherwise responded to it.

Customs also declined to comment on any issue pertaining to the case, issuing a statement instead: “As a matter of policy, we do not comment on pending litigation. However, lack of comment should not be construed as agreement or stipulation with any of the allegations.”

According to Serrano's lawsuit, as he tried to explain himself, one of the agents unlocked Serrano's door, unbuckled his seat belt, and yanked him out of the car.

“I know I didn't do anything wrong,” Serrano told The Post. “So I say 'listen, you can't yank me out like that, I'm an American, you can't do that to me.'”


The agent took his phone, and demanded Serrano give him the passcode.

Serrano recalls he told the agent to “go get a warrant.”

By this time, other agents had started searching his truck. “I said, 'Hey listen I have rights, you're violating my rights, you're not supposed to do that kind of stuff,'” Serrano recounted.

“I'm sick of hearing about your rights,” the agent said, according to Serrano's lawsuit. “You have no rights here.”

Eventually, one of the agents searching the truck found an ammunition clip containing five .380-caliber bullets and yelled “we got him!,” according to the lawsuit.

* * *

The bullets in Serrano's truck were a problem because civilian firearm ownership is illegal in most cases in Mexico, unlike in the United States. The State Department says that hundreds of Americans are arrested in foreign countries each year for carrying guns that are perfectly legal in the United States.

But those arrests typically happen south of the border, not in the United States. “It's definitely unusual [for CBP] to search a car that's leaving the country,” said Robert Everett Johnson of the Institute for Justice, a civil liberties law firm that is representing Serrano in federal court and a longtime forfeiture opponent. “The normal focus with CBP is on people coming into the country, not people going out of the country.”


Serrano had planned to take his pistol on the trip, but he left it home at the strong urging of his cousin, who explained the potential consequences of bringing it to Mexico. But he didn't realize the extra ammunition clip, containing five .380 caliber rounds, was still in the center console of his truck.

- - - more - - -

Ian McColgin
09-28-2017, 03:00 PM
- - - cont - - -

* * *

At the crossing, the CBP agents put Serrano in handcuffs and continued to ask him to give up the passcode.

“You go get that warrant,” Serrano says he told them. “I'll wait for you in jail.”

Serrano didn't believe that any judge would grant a warrant to search a phone for taking pictures at the border. He says he was trying to call what he believed to be the agents' bluff. “A lot of people don't understand basic civil rights,” he said.

For Serrano, there was also the principle of the whole thing.

“I ran for office here in Kentucky,” Serrano said. “I ran on principles of the Constitution and my rights. Everyone knows me as a Second Amendment guy. It would be hypocritical of me to talk one way in my home state and then give [CBP] what [they] want. I have to stand by my principles.”

The agents eventually placed Serrano in a locked cell without food, water or a toilet, Serrano says. Periodically someone would come in and ask for the passcode to his phone, he says. He refused every time.

Serrano says that after three hours, the agents told him he was free to go, returned his phone and said he wasn't being arrested or charged with any crime. Serrano says he was elated and thought he “wore them out.”

But then, the agents handed him a document informing him that Customs was taking his truck and the ammunition clip. Those items were “subject of legally becoming the property of the Federal Government (forfeiture),” according to the document, because Serrano had failed to disclose the presence of the clip, making the truck a “conveyance of illegal exportation.”

Serrano told the agents to arrest him. “If I did something wrong I'd prefer they arrest me because I knew I'd win in court,” he said

They declined.

* * *

Many Americans haven't heard of civil asset forfeiture, the legal provision that grants police the authority to seize cash and property from people not charged with a crime.

The practice doesn't follow the traditional American concept of “innocent until proven guilty.” If police suspect that you acquired something as a result of illegal activity, or even if it is connected to illegal activity, they can take it from you. If you want to get it back, the onus is on you to prove you got it legally.

Once property is seized and forfeited, in most states and at the federal level police can either keep it for themselves or sell it at auction to raise money for the department. Critics say this creates a perverse profit motive.

“Civil forfeiture allows the government to take your property without giving you any of the protections you get under the Constitution” as part of the criminal justice system, said Robert Johnson, Serrano's attorney. “That's an open invitation to abuse.”

The practice is widespread. In 2014, for instance, federal law enforcement officers alone took more than $5 billion worth of cash and property from people — more than the total amount of reported burglary losses that year.

After public outcry, the Obama administration put in place a number of restrictions on forfeiture that made it harder, in some cases, for authorities to take property without a criminal conviction. But Attorney General Jeff Sessions recently reversed those restrictions.

* * *

Serrano eventually rented a car to get back home to Kentucky.

Several weeks later he received a formal forfeiture notice from Customs, informing him that the government believed his truck was being used to transport “arms or munitions of war.” The notice gave him a number of options to pursue if he wanted his truck back.

One of the options was to make an “offer in compromise” — send Customs a check, and if they deemed the amount to be high enough, they would return his truck to him.

“That's like a shakedown,” Serrano said, "'give us an offer and we'll figure out if it's enough.'”

Serrano's federal forfeiture notice gave him the option of sending an unspecified sum to Customs to get his truck back.
Serrano opted to challenge the seizure in court.

“Gerardo didn't want to throw himself at the mercy of the agency,” said Johnson, his lawyer. “He wanted the judicial system to put it right. He invoked his right to a judge.”

Serrano filled out the paperwork immediately and wrote Customs a check for nearly $4,000 — a bond in the “penal sum” of 10 percent of the truck's value, which the agency required of Serrano to challenge the forfeiture in court.

Serrano's bank records show that Customs cashed the check on Oct. 30, 2015. Nearly two years later, they still have his truck.

Serrano's lawsuit, filed on Sept. 7, seeks the immediate return of his vehicle, compensatory damages, and an injunction against federal agencies prohibiting them from similarly seizing property without prompt hearings in the future.

“Two years is too long to wait,” Johnson said. “Just like you get a hearing within 48 hours of being arrested, you should be entitled to a hearing promptly after your property is taken.”

Serrano, for his part, has spent the past two years making loan and insurance payments on a truck sitting somewhere in a Customs impound lot. He's become disillusioned by the government he once sought to join as an elected official.

“It's like there's a war going on and they want to make war with my Bill of Rights,” he said. “How do they get away with this? How could this happen?”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/09/13/customs-agents-seized-a-lawful-gun-owners-truck-over-five-bullets-now-hes-suing-to-get-it-back/?utm_term=.01235f3e1eff

AlanMc
09-28-2017, 03:06 PM
the forfeiture crap needs to END. bottom line. i don't give a rats who started it, who is doing it now, whatever. if you haven't been committed of any crimes, you shouldn't have property taken from you.

i also think imminent domain needs a serious overhaul.

these loose laws make way too much room for abuse.

John of Phoenix
09-28-2017, 03:15 PM
Since it happened, he has made $20,000 in payments on the truck.Why? Let the bank try to repossess it from CBP.

Rum_Pirate
09-28-2017, 03:18 PM
A quick Google search shows this confiscation took place on September 21, 2015. There is plenty to say about our current president, but this one is not on him.
Dang, you just ruined a nice anti-Trump rant. :D

skuthorp
09-28-2017, 03:25 PM
When law enforcement is as crooked as the criminals you do have a problem.

Rum_Pirate
09-28-2017, 03:31 PM
When law enforcement is as crooked as the criminals you do have a problem.
A serious one at that.

JayInOz
09-28-2017, 04:08 PM
"Serrano, for his part, has spent the past two years making loan and insurance payments on a truck sitting somewhere in a Customs impound lot"

Be interesting to see what the mileage on that "impounded" truck is when he gets it back. JayInOz

bailfaster
09-28-2017, 04:11 PM
I remember seeing a black Lamborghini with a light bar on it in Long Beach in 1988. Had to do a double-take.Asked the local fellow I was with and he said "drug seizure"

Paul Pless
10-02-2017, 12:08 PM
So, it seems that a Kentucky farmer drove to Mexico to visit relatives. Had a nice time and headed for home. At the border, he snapped a phone pic of the traffic, ICE picked him out for a search. Under the seat was a pistol magazine with 3 bullets in it. An ICE agent yelled "We got him!" and arrested the man for "smuggling munitions".
He was cuffed and held for hours and his brand new F150 was confiscated.
It should be pointed out that he's a citizen, he has a Kentucky weapons permit and there's was no firearm in the vehicle. He's suing the federal government. Since it happened, he has made $20,000 in payments on the truck.

were they 22 shorts by chance?

Osborne Russell
10-02-2017, 12:55 PM
the forfeiture crap needs to END. bottom line. i don't give a rats who started it, who is doing it now, whatever. if you haven't been committed of any crimes, you shouldn't have property taken from you.

i also think imminent domain needs a serious overhaul.

these loose laws make way too much room for abuse.

Easy win for Trump and the Republican Congress, eh?

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
10-02-2017, 01:50 PM
civil forfeiture... the money is a way for the arresting agency to enhance it's revenue legally

look it up... you might be shocked

Beat me to it. And it was starting to be reformed, but Trump and Sessions reversed that. How Civil Forfeiture (prior to a conviction) passed constitutional muster is beyond me. I could see the court freezing assets under probable cause, but unless there is a conviction, the assets go back to the owner.

Breakaway
10-02-2017, 01:52 PM
How Civil Forfeiture (prior to a conviction)

I think they possess the property until conviction; If acquitted, property is returned. It's similar to the way they take your car now, if you get arrested for drunk driving.

Kevin

Keith Wilson
10-02-2017, 02:08 PM
The forfeiture crap needs to END. bottom line. I don't give a rat's who started it, who is doing it now, whatever. If you haven't been committed of any crimes, you shouldn't have property taken from you. . . . These loose laws make way too much room for abuse.I agree with you; it's gotten WAY out of hand.

Phillip Allen
10-02-2017, 10:07 PM
You are correct. However, Homeland Security has been out of control for years & Trump will not get them more sane.

I have seen home land security as a real threat to us citizens since it began... under bush, I think

Phillip Allen
10-02-2017, 10:13 PM
i wonder who was in charge between 2008 and 2014?

https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2015/11/forf.png&w=1484

civil forfeiture IS robbery and should be paid back by the offending agency plus interest and all recovery costs and the equivalent of rental on the value of what was seized.

Phillip Allen
10-02-2017, 10:18 PM
Beat me to it. And it was starting to be reformed, but Trump and Sessions reversed that. How Civil Forfeiture (prior to a conviction) passed constitutional muster is beyond me. I could see the court freezing assets under probable cause, but unless there is a conviction, the assets go back to the owner.

the way they around that is by convicting the asset itself... often with no charges against the owner of that asset. Henry VI may have had the right idea with lawyers :) (I'd better add that I'm just kidding about the lawyers)

Garret
10-02-2017, 10:19 PM
I have seen home land security as a real threat to us citizens since it began... under bush, I think

Good to hear & yes, Bush II created it.

Phillip Allen
10-02-2017, 10:34 PM
I'm sure you mean Henry IV.

It is my understanding that the killing of the lawyers was to prevent their defending the rights of the people, making it easier for their little scheme to work.

Trump is killing the Justice Department for much the same reason.

thnks

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
10-02-2017, 10:42 PM
I think they possess the property until conviction; If acquitted, property is returned. It's similar to the way they take your car now, if you get arrested for drunk driving.

Kevin

No. They take your property or large amount of cash that you were traveling with, it will cost too much to sue to get it back (no due process, they say "go ahead and sue us"), or they offer you a small fraction of it back for you to settle. It's extremely corrupt and has caught up a lot of innocent players, and accelerated in the past decade due to the revenue incentive.