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jbgusa
08-27-2017, 02:40 PM
Since Dylan Rooffs' Charleston massacre and with gathering force since the Charlottesville violence, there has been a crescendo of efforts to erase history. In Baltimore all Confederate monuments were ripped out in the middle of the night. In New York City Bill Deblasio, the “mayor” is even talking about removing Columbus’ statue and name from Columbus circle. Even non-symbols are threatened. An Asian-American sports announcer was pulled from announcing a University of Virginia game because his name is “Robert Lee” and there is fear that his name may offend some people. See ESPN removes Robert Lee from calling Virginia game in Charlottesville due to his name, (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/ct-robert-lee-espn-college-football-20170823-story.html)

There’s talk of removing subway tiles that were meant to symbolize and mark the center of Manhattan since the tiling looks to some people like a Confederate symbol. See MTA to Replace Times Square Subway Tiles That Look Like Confederate Flags. (http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/MTA-to-Replace-Times-Square-Subway-Tiles-Resemble-Confederate-Flags-441011533.html) Picture below:



https://www.debatepolitics.com/attachments/us-partisan-politics-and-political-platforms/67221930d1503862265-submitted-current-racial-problems-not-caused-memorials-cjwri53wiaaejqy-jpg

Somehow, I think that monuments of Confederate heroes, sports announcers with similar names, and memorializations of history are not the reason that certain minority students wind up punching out their teachers rather than learning in school. I.e. Milwaukee student caught on video punching teacher several times (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/23/milwaukee-student-caught-on-video-punching-teacher-several-times.html).

I think that the umbilical ties to nursing ancient hatreds are part of the problem. See A Racist World, Described by Those Who Knew It (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/books/a-racist-world-described-by-those-who-knew-it.html).[“And Angelou was, in a way, just as furious about the sheriff’s condescension, the blithe evil of warning the innocent to “lay low.”]. Why not focus on real current barriers to learning and achievement rather than the evils of long-dead white losers such as Southern sheriffs, governors using police dogs, and Klansmen? There are serious needs to be addressed, serious current problems.

Those problems are not caused by a statue of Christopher Columbus or even Robert E. Lee.

oznabrag
08-27-2017, 03:04 PM
Since Dylan Rooffs' Charleston massacre and with gathering force since the Charlottesville violence, there has been a crescendo of efforts to erase history. In Baltimore all Confederate monuments were ripped out in the middle of the night. In New York City Bill Deblasio, the “mayor” is even talking about removing Columbus’ statue and name from Columbus circle. Even non-symbols are threatened. An Asian-American sports announcer was pulled from announcing a University of Virginia game because his name is “Robert Lee” and there is fear that his name may offend some people. See ESPN removes Robert Lee from calling Virginia game in Charlottesville due to his name, (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/ct-robert-lee-espn-college-football-20170823-story.html)

There’s talk of removing subway tiles that were meant to symbolize and mark the center of Manhattan since the tiling looks to some people like a Confederate symbol. See MTA to Replace Times Square Subway Tiles That Look Like Confederate Flags. (http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/MTA-to-Replace-Times-Square-Subway-Tiles-Resemble-Confederate-Flags-441011533.html) Picture below:



https://www.debatepolitics.com/attachments/us-partisan-politics-and-political-platforms/67221930d1503862265-submitted-current-racial-problems-not-caused-memorials-cjwri53wiaaejqy-jpg

Somehow, I think that monuments of Confederate heroes, sports announcers with similar names, and memorializations of history are not the reason that certain minority students wind up punching out their teachers rather than learning in school. I.e. Milwaukee student caught on video punching teacher several times (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/23/milwaukee-student-caught-on-video-punching-teacher-several-times.html).

I think that the umbilical ties to nursing ancient hatreds are part of the problem. See A Racist World, Described by Those Who Knew It (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/books/a-racist-world-described-by-those-who-knew-it.html).[“And Angelou was, in a way, just as furious about the sheriff’s condescension, the blithe evil of warning the innocent to “lay low.”]. Why not focus on real current barriers to learning and achievement rather than the evils of long-dead white losers such as Southern sheriffs, governors using police dogs, and Klansmen? There are serious needs to be addressed, serious current problems.

Those problems are not caused by a statue of Christopher Columbus or even Robert E. Lee.

No, I suppose not.

They were intended to empower Neo-Confederates, and nearly a hundred years later, they are still working as designed.

If one regards the empowerment of White Supremacists as no problem, then I suppose those statues are 'no problem'.

Dan McCosh
08-27-2017, 03:09 PM
Might note that punching out teachers didn't inhibit Trump from getting elected President.

johnw
08-27-2017, 03:13 PM
Robert E. Lee, as president of Washington University (now Washington and Lee) refused to allow a confederate monument to be placed on campus during his tenure.

Clearly, he thought it would cause some sort of problem. Who are you to say Robert E. Lee was wrong?

jbgusa
08-27-2017, 03:20 PM
Robert E. Lee, as president of Washington University (now Washington and Lee) refused to allow a confederate monument to be placed on campus during his tenure.

Clearly, he thought it would cause some sort of problem. Who are you to say Robert E. Lee was wrong?But the memorial in his day would not have been of him. And you are supporting my argument that he returned to being a patriot, not a traitor.

oznabrag
08-27-2017, 03:23 PM
But the memorial in his day would not have been of him. And you are supporting my argument that he returned to being a patriot, not a traitor.

PLEASE STOP.

You are out of your depth.

jbgusa
08-27-2017, 03:25 PM
PLEASE STOP.

You are out of your depth.
oznabrag (http://forum.woodenboat.com/member.php?23078-oznabrag)

http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/statusicon/user-online.png Historical Illiterate

QED.

CWSmith
08-27-2017, 03:26 PM
Baltimore is 64% African American.

http://baltimore.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

Are we really going to debate why they don't want statues celebrating the people who fought to keep their ancestors in slavery?

Also, what is the exact significance of one student in one town hitting a teacher? Is this how we have a meaningful discussion of race in America?

jbgusa
08-27-2017, 03:29 PM
Baltimore is 64% African American.

http://baltimore.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

Are we really going to debate why they don't want statues celebrating the people who fought to keep their ancestors in slavery?

Also, what is the exact significance of one student in one town hitting a teacher? Is this how we have a meaningful discussion of race in America?The point is that the African-American community has real problems to address. Problems such as multiple childbirths into deep poverty, illegitimacy and crime.

Dan McCosh
08-27-2017, 03:32 PM
The point is that the African-American community has real problems to address. Problems such as multiple childbirths into deep poverty, illegitimacy and crime. The first sentence is self-evident. The second is incoherent and kind of weird.

oznabrag
08-27-2017, 03:33 PM
QED, indeed.

CWSmith
08-27-2017, 03:36 PM
The point is that the African-American community has real problems to address. Problems such as multiple childbirths into deep poverty, illegitimacy and crime.

I know what you're saying. I just think you're missing the point. You cannot separate these things. A community that is abused both remembers the abuse and tends to make bad decisions in the present day. The simple fact that more African Americans didn't vote in the recent election is a clear example of a poor decision, but how do you ask a community to make better decisions when you maintain an environment where you honor the same people that enslaved their ancestors? If our society is imperfect, we start by changing what we can and we work to change what is more difficult.

johnw
08-27-2017, 03:39 PM
But the memorial in his day would not have been of him. And you are supporting my argument that he returned to being a patriot, not a traitor.
It appears you don't know what they symbolized.

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/170816135714-gfx-monuments-over-time-splc.jpg
Mostly, they got put up when they could symbolize the dominance of whites over blacks, such as when the KKK was founded, or during the Jim Crow era.

In any case, the cities where they are being taken down are majority African-American. Why shouldn't they take down monuments to their own oppression?

S.V. Airlie
08-27-2017, 03:44 PM
Interesting bar graph John!

johnw
08-27-2017, 04:00 PM
Interesting bar graph John!
Especially the way there was a big round of naming schools after confederates when schools were being integrated. The message was pretty unambiguous.

CWSmith
08-27-2017, 04:07 PM
Especially the way there was a big round of naming schools after confederates when schools were being integrated. The message was pretty unambiguous.

I've thought for a long time that we need to move forward without regard for statues and such, but the more I see of this and the more I think about it, it just cannot be tolerated.

If someone wanted to erect a Vietnam-style memorial to those who died, I can accept that. I disagreed with the Vietnam war then and I disagree with it more now. I can accept a memorial to those who put their lives on the line for their beliefs even if I disagree with those beliefs. But there has to be limits. Schools are places to teach values, to impart the wisdom needed for the future. Using them as monuments to failed ideas and broken values is not acceptable.

Dan McCosh
08-27-2017, 04:17 PM
Especially the way there was a big round of naming schools after confederates when schools were being integrated. The message was pretty unambiguous. Detroit's 12th street, where the 1967 riot started, was renamed Rosa Parks Blvd., which actually was kind of close where she lived. The renaming ended up attached to a street gang called the Rosa Parks Players, which did not make her very happy.

Jimmy W
08-27-2017, 04:18 PM
The point is that the African-American community has real problems to address. Problems such as multiple childbirths into deep poverty, illegitimacy and crime.

So far, keeping those monuments to the people that wanted to keep that community enslaved and without political power doesn't seem to have done the community much good.



"It is true that the people of the South, in common with a large majority of the people of the North and West, are, for obvious reasons, inflexibly opposed to any system of laws that would place the political power of the country in the hands of the negro race. But this opposition springs from no feeling of enmity, but from a deep-seated conviction that, at present, the negroes have neither the intelligence nor the other qualifications which are necessary to make them safe depositories of political power." Robert E. Lee

johnw
08-27-2017, 04:50 PM
The statues are being removed by municipal governments because that's what the cities' voters want. Why should outsiders be allowed to tell the voters in a city what monuments they should have? Why is local control so bad all of a sudden?

Lew Barrett
08-28-2017, 12:02 PM
The statues are being removed by municipal governments because that's what the cities' voters want. Why should outsiders be allowed to tell the voters in a city what monuments they should have? Why is local control so bad all of a sudden?

Yes sir.

Osborne Russell
08-28-2017, 12:16 PM
Those problems are not caused by a statue of Christopher Columbus or even Robert E. Lee.

No fooling?

Flying Orca
08-28-2017, 12:52 PM
The point is that the African-American community has real problems to address. Problems such as multiple childbirths into deep poverty, illegitimacy and crime.

Deep breaths. Deep breaths.

Tell me, are those problems limited to "the African-American community"? Oh, they're not? Funny how you'd single out that community in particular, either in facing those problems or in being responsible for the solution...

Oh, and one other thing: do you think that the real challenges faced by African-Americans in the USA might just have something to do with centuries of slavery followed by a century or so of white supremacy? Because if they do, it makes sense to me to stop letting the white supremacists celebrate the traitors who fought a war to keep my ancestors enslaved.

Osborne Russell
08-28-2017, 12:58 PM
I have known many welfare queens. Some were my neighbors and all of them were white.

-- J.D. Vance, Hillbilly Elegy (2016)

Flying Orca
08-28-2017, 12:59 PM
I have known many welfare queens. Some were my neighbors and all of them were white.

-- J.D. Vance, Hillbilly Elegy (2016)

That is one hell of a good book.

Chris Coose
08-28-2017, 01:38 PM
The torch bearers on Friday night at Charlottesville were hollering all kinds of unholy chants in unison, inciting racial hatred. Why were they there?


One other question. Explain to me your concept of illegitimacy.

Osborne Russell
08-28-2017, 03:18 PM
That is one hell of a good book.

Just started. The quote is from the introduction.

Durnik
08-28-2017, 10:02 PM
The point is that the African-American community has real problems to address. Problems such as multiple childbirths into deep poverty, illegitimacy and crime.




http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by oznabrag http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=5328103#post5328103)

PLEASE STOP.

You are out of your depth.


one of these is correct..

mdh
08-28-2017, 10:54 PM
Charles Barkley: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/08/23/charles-barkleys-common-sense-on-confederate-monuments-makes-him-hero-for-our-time.amp.html

jbgusa
08-29-2017, 07:40 AM
Deep breaths. Deep breaths.

Tell me, are those problems limited to "the African-American community"? Oh, they're not? Funny how you'd single out that community in particular, either in facing those problems or in being responsible for the solution...

Oh, and one other thing: do you think that the real challenges faced by African-Americans in the USA might just have something to do with centuries of slavery followed by a century or so of white supremacy? Because if they do, it makes sense to me to stop letting the white supremacists celebrate the traitors who fought a war to keep my ancestors enslaved.Certain problems are worse in the African-American community than elsewhere. And I assume you mean by "white supremacy" the fact that whites (and Asian Americans but I digress) tend to be employers, and thus "supreme" in parts of life.

Tom Lathrop
08-29-2017, 07:54 AM
That is one hell of a good book.

Yes, but it mainly centers on Vance's dysfunctional family while "Deer Hunting With Jesus" is much broader in scope and IMO, a better book.

Paul Pless
08-29-2017, 08:02 AM
jbgusa, where might your interest in wooden boats lie?

just curious

Flying Orca
08-29-2017, 08:59 AM
Certain problems are worse in the African-American community than elsewhere.

They certainly are; the legacy of centuries of racism and white supremacy dies hard.


And I assume you mean by "white supremacy" the fact that whites (and Asian Americans but I digress) tend to be employers, and thus "supreme" in parts of life.

That's a very telling assumption. It's almost as if you've never heard of Redemption, segregation, Jim Crow, or other institutionalized racism. Or maybe just don't want to acknowledge that their legacy lives on...

Flying Orca
08-29-2017, 09:00 AM
Yes, but it mainly centers on Vance's dysfunctional family while "Deer Hunting With Jesus" is much broader in scope and IMO, a better book.

A good counterpart, certainly.

Canoez
08-29-2017, 09:21 AM
They certainly are; the legacy of centuries of racism and white supremacy dies hard.

Particularly when you have folks who are trying their hardest to keep this going.

Flying Orca
08-29-2017, 09:24 AM
Particularly when you have folks who are trying their hardest to keep this going.

I'm sure it's easier to do that when you don't acknowledge that it exists.

Canoez
08-29-2017, 09:26 AM
I'm sure it's easier to do that when you don't acknowledge that it exists.

Like several posters seem to be doing here on a regular basis, of late.

oznabrag
08-29-2017, 09:59 AM
They certainly are; the legacy of centuries of racism and white supremacy dies hard.



That's a very telling assumption. It's almost as if you've never heard of Redemption, segregation, Jim Crow, or other institutionalized racism. Or maybe just don't want to acknowledge that their legacy lives on...


Particularly when you have folks who are trying their hardest to keep this going.

Dear God, there are some vile and loathsome creatures on this planet, desperately pleading to be regarded as 'human'.

Their grasp of 'humanity' is so shallow and narrow that they think they can become human by oppressing humans.

THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS.

jbgusa
08-29-2017, 09:07 PM
jbgusa, where might your interest in wooden boats lie?

just curious
I was looking up what I thought was a Wyatt Earp quote "that person had to die" for a discussion elsewhere. I liked what I saw and joined. Is that somehow wrong?

Other boards to which I belong don't have tolerance for my extreme leftist views.

oznabrag
08-29-2017, 09:13 PM
You're thinking of the old West Texas 'Just Needed Killin' defense.

jbgusa
08-30-2017, 07:05 AM
You're thinking of the old West Texas 'Just Needed Killin' defense.Yes. Where does that come from?

I was googling, found something like it referenced here and started posting. Is that a bad thong somehow?

Phillip Allen
08-30-2017, 07:09 AM
what a bunch of agitators...

John Smith
08-30-2017, 07:35 AM
All these 'things' are inanimate objects. We do hold them as symbols that mean different things to different people.

My view is people use them as something around which to rally forces. This may be a poor analogy, but Martin Luther King had millions of people marching for peace and equality. After his death, we had people marching for a holiday in his name, and the holiday became the cause, rather than the peace and equality.

I supported he holiday, but I did take note the the march for peace and equality seemed to stop.

Racists will be racists whether or not monuments remain or come down. I suspect the monuments coming down will make for more ANGRY racists.

oznabrag
08-30-2017, 08:27 AM
Yes. Where does that come from?

I was googling, found something like it referenced here and started posting. Is that a bad thong somehow?

Wyatt Earp was a straight-laced, hard-edged, stickler for detail and accuracy when it came to The Law.

He's not your man.

Look into Judge Roy Bean, who once found a drowned man with two $20 gold pieces and a Derringer in his pocket, and fined the corpse $40 for carrying a concealed weapon.

jbgusa
08-30-2017, 10:06 PM
All these 'things' are inanimate objects. We do hold them as symbols that mean different things to different people.

My view is people use them as something around which to rally forces. This may be a poor analogy, but Martin Luther King had millions of people marching for peace and equality. After his death, we had people marching for a holiday in his name, and the holiday became the cause, rather than the peace and equality.

I supported he holiday, but I did take note the the march for peace and equality seemed to stop.

Racists will be racists whether or not monuments remain or come down. I suspect the monuments coming down will make for more ANGRY racists.Excellent post. And the events right after King's death were hardly "peace and equality."

oznabrag
08-30-2017, 11:39 PM
Wyatt Earp was a straight-laced, hard-edged, stickler for detail and accuracy when it came to The Law.

He's not your man.

Look into Judge Roy Bean, who once found a drowned man with two $20 gold pieces and a Derringer in his pocket, and fined the corpse $40 for carrying a concealed weapon.

Bean is what we now know as a a 'Republican'.

Jimmy W
08-31-2017, 12:09 AM
The point is that the African-American community has real problems to address. Problems such as multiple childbirths into deep poverty, illegitimacy and crime.

http://revolutionsperminute.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/No-Human-Is-Illegal.png

Jimmy W
08-31-2017, 12:22 AM
All these 'things' are inanimate objects. We do hold them as symbols that mean different things to different people.

My view is people use them as something around which to rally forces. This may be a poor analogy, but Martin Luther King had millions of people marching for peace and equality. After his death, we had people marching for a holiday in his name, and the holiday became the cause, rather than the peace and equality.

I supported he holiday, but I did take note the the march for peace and equality seemed to stop.

Racists will be racists whether or not monuments remain or come down. I suspect the monuments coming down will make for more ANGRY racists.

I don't much care about whether the racists get more angry. They seem to be a pretty angry bunch already. Maybe they will give themselves a heart attack.

jbgusa
08-31-2017, 07:21 AM
The point is that the African-American community has real problems to address. Problems such as multiple childbirths into deep poverty, illegitimacy and crime.


http://revolutionsperminute.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/No-Human-Is-Illegal.pngPlease don't assume illegitimacy = illegality. Far from it. Children deserve a nurturing home, and support for education and achievement. They don't deserve to have six or seven siblings, none being raised in any sense people would understand. The law of the jungle is not the law of the classroom or of the city or town in which they live.

jbgusa
08-31-2017, 07:22 AM
I don't much care about whether the racists get more angry. They seem to be a pretty angry bunch already. Maybe they will give themselves a heart attack.I also don't care if the racists are angry. I care if they start taking down statues and erasing my history. I.e. Christopher Columbus.

Flying Orca
08-31-2017, 07:27 AM
I also don't care if the racists are angry. I care if they start taking down statues and erasing my history. I.e. Christopher Columbus.

Taking down statues is not "erasing history", it is ceasing to celebrate people. Perhaps you are incapable of comprehending the difference.

Dan McCosh
08-31-2017, 07:43 AM
I also don't care if the racists are angry. I care if they start taking down statues and erasing my history. I.e. Christopher Columbus. How about a statue of Al Capone?

Jimmy W
08-31-2017, 07:52 AM
I also don't care if the racists are angry. I care if they start taking down statues and erasing my history. I.e. Christopher Columbus.

Roger Emile Stouff, a member here, is the son of Nicholas Leonard Stouff Jr., last chief of the Chitimacha Tribe. He has written that we should "Abolish Columbus day and make it a "Native American Remembrance Day" to honor native people." This place was discovered and inhabited long before Columbus came along.

Dan McCosh
08-31-2017, 07:58 AM
Given the impact Al Capone had on Detroit and its economy, one would think that there was at least one statue honoring him. But no, Coleman Young, Detroit's first elected Black mayor, chose instead to install a statue of Christopher Columbus where Canadians would see it as they came out into the light after tunneling under the Detroit River. Activists draped black bunting over Chris last week.

Dan McCosh
08-31-2017, 08:05 AM
Another monument in Detroit is the Scott Fountain on Belle Isle, recently restored at some expense:

"Scott was left a sizable fortune by his father who invested in Detroit real estate. According to contemporaries, Scott gambled and told off-color stories. He was described by twentieth-century author W. Hawkins Ferry as a "vindictive, scurrilous misanthrope" who attempted to intimidate his business competitors and when this was unsuccessful, he filed suit. Perhaps for these reasons, Scott died in 1910 with no heirs or colleagues and he bequeathed his estate to the City of Detroit with the condition that the fountain include a life-sized bronze statue of him. Some accounts state that the will required that the statue be at the fountain's pinnacle.

Several community and religious leaders—including Bishop Charles D. Williams—spoke against accepting the bequest, saying that a person with Scott's reputation should not be immortalized in the city. Mayor Philip Breitmeyer and City Council President David Heineman urged accepting the gift saying that the city shouldn't insult any of its citizens by refusing such a generous offer."

While the debate raged, Scott's fortune continued to grow and by the time construction commenced it topped $1 million. The final design placed Scott's statue in an inconspicuous spot behind the fountain.


Might add that the debris from the construction of the fountain was dumped into the middle of the Detroit River, creating an artificial shoal that remains a hazard to navigation to this day.

Dan McCosh
08-31-2017, 08:11 AM
Another oddity: Mississippi has been requiring its students to salute the Confederate battle flag alongside the U.S. flag for years.

oznabrag
08-31-2017, 08:44 AM
Another oddity: Mississippi has been requiring its students to salute the Confederate battle flag alongside the U.S. flag for years.

I attended public schools in Mississippi from 1970 - 1978, and was never required to salute anything, to the best of my recollection.

Do you have a citation for that?

Duncan Gibbs
08-31-2017, 09:09 AM
I also don't care if the racists are angry. I care if they start taking down statues and erasing my history. I.e. Christopher Columbus.
You can get angry all you want. Christopher Columbus never set foot in North America, but the vikings did!

If I were you I'd be demanding the Columbus statue be replaced by one of Leif Ericson!

Flying Orca
08-31-2017, 09:11 AM
Another oddity: Mississippi has been requiring its students to salute the Confederate battle flag alongside the U.S. flag for years.


Huh. It's almost as if it actually is​ about racism.

Dan McCosh
08-31-2017, 09:59 AM
You can get angry all you want. Christopher Columbus never set foot in North America, but the vikings did!

If I were you I'd be demanding the Columbus statue be replaced by one of Leif Ericson! The guy does seem to be Italian.

oznabrag
08-31-2017, 10:18 AM
I attended public schools in Mississippi from 1970 - 1978, and was never required to salute anything, to the best of my recollection.

Do you have a citation for that?

Hello?

Does this mean I get to make up evil stuff about Michigan, now?

oznabrag
08-31-2017, 10:20 AM
Huh. It's almost as if it actually is​ about racism.

Actually, school children in Michigan are forced to urinate on a picture of Martin Luther King.

Every day, before breakfast.

Dan McCosh
08-31-2017, 10:53 AM
I attended public schools in Mississippi from 1970 - 1978, and was never required to salute anything, to the best of my recollection.

Do you have a citation for that? (From Wiki)

Pledge to the Mississippi state flag
The pledge to the state flag is:

I salute the flag of Mississippi and the sovereign state for which it stands with pride in her history and achievements and with confidence in her future under the guidance of Almighty God.

— Mississippi Code Ann., Section 37-13-7, 1972[4]
The statute is part of the set of state statutes that governs the curriculum of the state's public schools. Section 37-13-7 provides: "The pledge of allegiance to the Mississippi flag shall be taught in the public schools of this state, along with the pledge of allegiance to the United States flag."

Dan McCosh
08-31-2017, 10:54 AM
Actually, school children in Michigan are forced to urinate on a picture of Martin Luther King.

Every day, before breakfast. Citation?

Flying Orca
08-31-2017, 11:12 AM
Actually, school children in Michigan are forced to urinate on a picture of Martin Luther King.

Every day, before breakfast.

Huh. Who knew!

(And before breakfast? That's over the top.)

oznabrag
08-31-2017, 11:21 AM
(From Wiki)

Pledge to the Mississippi state flag
The pledge to the state flag is:

I salute the flag of Mississippi and the sovereign state for which it stands with pride in her history and achievements and with confidence in her future under the guidance of Almighty God.

— Mississippi Code Ann., Section 37-13-7, 1972[4]
The statute is part of the set of state statutes that governs the curriculum of the state's public schools. Section 37-13-7 provides: "The pledge of allegiance to the Mississippi flag shall be taught in the public schools of this state, along with the pledge of allegiance to the United States flag."
So, your earlier assertion was that school children were required to salute the Confederate battle flag. Furthermore I attended those schools for 8 years, and I do not recall being compelled to salute EITHER flag.

Dan McCosh
08-31-2017, 11:59 AM
So, your earlier assertion was that school children were required to salute the Confederate battle flag. Furthermore I attended those schools for 8 years, and I do not recall being compelled to salute EITHER flag. Interesting. The pledge of allegiance was pretty common in many elementary schools. I take it your school rebelled against the state laws as well. Still waiting for the citation on your statement on Martin Luther King in Michigan schools. FWIW, the Black National Anthem was routinely sung in Detroit public schools.

sandtown
08-31-2017, 12:27 PM
Straw man and reasoning by anecdote alerts . .

FOX has taught you well . .

Dan McCosh
08-31-2017, 12:47 PM
The Mississippi flag would be last year's news, save for the current review of the case pending before the U.S, Supreme Court on the issue. It has more legal status than the statues of Robert E. Lee, albeit not the attention in today's news.

johnw
08-31-2017, 02:57 PM
You're thinking of the old West Texas 'Just Needed Killin' defense.

It was in West Texas that I learned the term "misdemeanor murder." In certain circumstances, the penalties are not that harsh. The newspaper I worked for covered a trial where the defendant said, "I had to kill him, he was (redacted) my wife!" It was the only story where the newspaper actually published the f-word.

The jury decided it was a crime, but not that bad a one. His sentence was shorter than an armed robber would get.

johnw
08-31-2017, 03:57 PM
I also don't care if the racists are angry. I care if they start taking down statues and erasing my history. I.e. Christopher Columbus.

So, here's my question. What does this...


Re: Submitted: Current Racial Problems NOT Caused by Memorials

...have to do with whether statues should be removed? The statues are a symptom of "current racial problems," and the voters in the cities where they are being taken down have decided they want them taken down. Why shouldn't they? Surely there should be some local control, "cities' rights," if you will, regarding what monuments are in public places. Why should outside agitators be allowed to tell the people of cities like Richmond what statues they must have in their public places?

In any case, I still think you're confused about what history the Civil War statues commemorate. Remember post 13?


It appears you don't know what they symbolized.

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/170816135714-gfx-monuments-over-time-splc.jpg
Mostly, they got put up when they could symbolize the dominance of whites over blacks, such as when the KKK was founded, or during the Jim Crow era.

In any case, the cities where they are being taken down are majority African-American. Why shouldn't they take down monuments to their own oppression?

As for Columbus, I don't think it's a coincidence that the first state to pass a law establishing Columbus Day was once part of Mexico, with substantial Native American and Mestizo populations. It was not just a symbol of oppression, it was also a way for Italian Americans to celebrate their heritage, but the history means different things to different people. Colorado was not primarily Italian-American, so we have to consider why other people wanted to celebrate Columbus. It is a celebration of the European conquest of America.

Quite a few Native Americans come into my bookstore. It would be extremely insensitive if I were to harangue them about what a great guy Columbus was. Not that I have anything against the guy, I just understand why some people don't like that part of history as much as I do.

oznabrag
08-31-2017, 04:36 PM
Interesting. The pledge of allegiance was pretty common in many elementary schools. I take it your school rebelled against the state laws as well. Still waiting for the citation on your statement on Martin Luther King in Michigan schools. FWIW, the Black National Anthem was routinely sung in Detroit public schools.

This is the Mississippi Stae Flag:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Flag_of_Mississippi.svg/255px-Flag_of_Mississippi.svg.png

This is the Confederate battle flag:

https://image.dhgate.com/0x0/f2/albu/g2/M00/22/7D/rBVaGlW1-3yAeORMAATG2BOfgCw335.jpg


Mississippi school children are not being required to salute the Confederate battle flag.

Dan McCosh
08-31-2017, 04:53 PM
Isn't that what the supreme court case is all about? Still waiting about the Martin Luther King citation. Also, whether Mississippi kids don't recite the US national anthem. Just curious.
Also, I don't know what the current status of the state law requiring the salute to the state flag is. Do you?

oznabrag
08-31-2017, 04:57 PM
Isn't that what the supreme court case is all about? Still waiting about the Martin Luther King citation. Also, whether Mississippi kids don't recite the US national anthem. Just curious.

Don't recall being required to recite the National Anthem, either.

Of course, my experience is going on 40 years ago, sooo . . .

Jimmy W
08-31-2017, 05:46 PM
Another oddity: Mississippi has been requiring its students to salute the Confederate battle flag alongside the U.S. flag for years.

I started the first grade in Mississippi in 1956, graduated from high school still in Mississippi in 1969. Then went to and graduated from a Mississippi Public University. I remember saluting the US flag and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance to the US flag. I can't remember ever doing that to the Confederate or state flag. All of the major universities in Mississippi and many of the towns and cities in the state have stopped flying the state flag. There was a bill introduced this year to require K-12 schools to fly the state flag, but it did not get out of committee.

Duncan Gibbs
08-31-2017, 05:54 PM
The guy does seem to be Italian.
Northern or Southern? Columbus being from Genoa and all... I mean accuracy matters when talking about who owns what bit of history and all!

Dan McCosh
09-01-2017, 12:32 PM
I started the first grade in Mississippi in 1956, graduated from high school still in Mississippi in 1969. Then went to and graduated from a Mississippi Public University. I remember saluting the US flag and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance to the US flag. I can't remember ever doing that to the Confederate or state flag. All of the major universities in Mississippi and many of the towns and cities in the state have stopped flying the state flag. There was a bill introduced this year to require K-12 schools to fly the state flag, but it did not get out of committee. The state law about pledging the state flag went into effect in 1972, so you would have missed it. Dunno why the bill was passed. The pledge of allegiance to to the US flag is routine, with the only controversy I remember is adding the "under God" part. Incorporating the Confederate battle flag into the Mississippi flag raised the same issues as the more recent problem with the Confederate statues, and it is now pending at the US Supreme Court.

Dan McCosh
09-01-2017, 12:38 PM
Northern or Southern? Columbus being from Genoa and all... I mean accuracy matters when talking about who owns what bit of history and all!

Italians can be touchy. The head of Fiat (an Italian) started a controversy when he referred to the company's Alfa Romeo power plant as a "Wop engine". That caused a reaction from an Italian-American anti-defamation organization in New Jersey, which previously had objected to the portrayal of the "Fonz" character on Happy Days as defaming Italians. Fiat issued an apology.