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Rum_Pirate
08-25-2017, 10:58 AM
I have an apartment (with own entrance) on my property and rent it.

However I have for dogs of varying ages and weights.
Also have pool 4'0" deep which is unfenced.
Plus the back boundary is an unfenced cliff with a +/-60'0" sheer drop to rocks below.

Have pointed these ''hazards' out to previous tenants, and agreed back garden is 'off limits' as is the pool and have never had a problem in 20 years. Lucky?

I could easily fence off (40'0) the access to the back garden/cliff and the pool on that side of the house. Could gate the other side ( has low wall 4'0") which would give a completely fenced area for the Apt.

NOW the concern :

Prospective tenant has a 4 year old daughter.

Some advice I got: "the parent has a duty to supervise the child so it is not every injury which can be placed at your door. However, liability could arise for defects in areas (including grounds, pools etc) which remain under your control. Such liability will be incurred to the child directly and no release by a parent of that liability will bind the child."

Would you rent it to them or not?

sharpiefan
08-25-2017, 11:14 AM
No.

Unless you can kid-proof the hazards you've outlined; would any part of the property improvements be tax-deductible?

Kids that age are explorers. They will go where they should not, unless you physically restrain them.

Good luck.

Rum_Pirate
08-25-2017, 11:16 AM
No.

Unless you can kid-proof the hazards you've outlined; would any part of the property improvements be tax-deductible?

Kids that age are explorers. They will go where they should not, unless you physically restrain them.

Good luck.

A 4'0" high chainlink fence work?


We don't pay personal income tax here.





* We get crushed by Import Duties and other related charges. |:(

Too Little Time
08-25-2017, 11:16 AM
I have an apartment (with own entrance) on my property and rent it.

However I have for dogs of varying ages and weights.
Also have pool 4'0" deep which is unfenced.
Plus the back boundary is an unfenced cliff with a +/-60'0" sheer drop to rocks below.

Have pointed these ''hazards' out to previous tenants, and agreed back garden is 'off limits' as is the pool and have never had a problem in 20 years. Lucky?

I could easily fence off (40'0) the access to the back garden/cliff and the pool on that side of the house. Could gate the other side ( has low wall 4'0") which would give a completely fenced area for the Apt.

NOW the concern :

Prospective tenant has a 4 year old daughter.

Some advice I got: "the parent has a duty to supervise the child so it is not every injury which can be placed at your door. However, liability could arise for defects in areas (including grounds, pools etc) which remain under your control. Such liability will be incurred to the child directly and no release by a parent of that liability will bind the child."

Would you rent it to them or not?
Put up appropriate fences.

Rum_Pirate
08-25-2017, 11:17 AM
Put up appropriate fences. There's the rub. How high is high enough?

Norman Bernstein
08-25-2017, 11:19 AM
I have an apartment (with own entrance) on my property and rent it.

However I have for dogs of varying ages and weights.
Also have pool 4'0" deep which is unfenced.
Plus the back boundary is an unfenced cliff with a +/-60'0" sheer drop to rocks below.

Have pointed these ''hazards' out to previous tenants, and agreed back garden is 'off limits' as is the pool and have never had a problem in 20 years. Lucky?

I could easily fence off (40'0) the access to the back garden/cliff and the pool on that side of the house. Could gate the other side ( has low wall 4'0") which would give a completely fenced area for the Apt.

NOW the concern :

Prospective tenant has a 4 year old daughter.

Some advice I got: "the parent has a duty to supervise the child so it is not every injury which can be placed at your door. However, liability could arise for defects in areas (including grounds, pools etc) which remain under your control. Such liability will be incurred to the child directly and no release by a parent of that liability will bind the child."

Would you rent it to them or not?

I don't think I'd rent to ANY tenant until the obvious hazards are blocked off. I don't know a thing about the St. Kitts legal system, but here in the States, a 'warning' about potential hazards isn't sufficient to prevent getting your ass sued off, in the event of an accident.

Now, if the kid climbs over a fence and is hurt (and that would of course, be a tragedy), it would, at the very least, be attributable to the negligence of the parent, for failing to supervise.

Rum_Pirate
08-25-2017, 11:23 AM
I don't think I'd rent to ANY tenant until the obvious hazards are blocked off. I don't know a thing about the St. Kitts legal system, but here in the States, a 'warning' about potential hazards isn't sufficient to prevent getting your ass sued off, in the event of an accident.

Now, if the kid climbs over a fence and is hurt (and that would of course, be a tragedy), it would, at the very least, be attributable to the negligence of the parent, for failing to supervise.

Legal system based on British system and basically same precedents. Damage awards/amounts, a bit different to USA.

sharpiefan
08-25-2017, 11:37 AM
According to the Florida Department of Health, unintentional drowning is the leading cause of death in the state among children ages 1 to 4. The state's swimming pool laws are designed to decrease the number of deaths and improve safety.

Barriers
A swimming pool in Florida is required to feature a barrier at least 48 inches high surrounding it. The barrier must completely enclose the pool and cannot have any gaps, openings, protrusions or other areas through which a child could climb or crawl. The barrier must not be placed directly next to the pool to avoid an accident occurring during which a person who cannot swim might make his way through the fence and immediately fall into the pool upon reaching the other side.

State of Florida Swimming Pool Laws (LINK) (http://traveltips.usatoday.com/state-florida-swimming-pool-laws-62689.html)

I'd go an extra step, and add an additional foot at the top, angled outboard at 45 degrees, to discourage persistent people. Paranoia is cheap; fencing, I don't know; lawsuits are never cheap.

SKIP KILPATRICK
08-25-2017, 11:43 AM
I don't know a thing about the St. Kitts legal system.

Me neither...... except, I've heard it's like pulling teeth to get $2000 out of a deadbeat friend!

Rum_Pirate
08-25-2017, 11:55 AM
State of Florida Swimming Pool Laws (LINK) (http://traveltips.usatoday.com/state-florida-swimming-pool-laws-62689.html)

I'd go an extra step, and add an additional foot at the top, angled outboard at 45 degrees, to discourage persistent people. Paranoia is cheap; fencing, I don't know; lawsuits are never cheap. . . . and loss of life is never good.

Rum_Pirate
08-25-2017, 11:55 AM
Me neither...... except, I've heard it's like pulling teeth to get $2000 out of a deadbeat friend!


Now now. :d

CWSmith
08-25-2017, 12:49 PM
A 60 foot cliff and a 4 year old child? Oh, hell no!

Greg Nolan
08-25-2017, 01:43 PM
Most states have fence requirements for swimming pools -- and often higher than 4 feet. These laws grow out of the common law notion of an "attractive nuisance" -- a doctrine that recognizes that people, especially children, are often attracted to dangerous things -- and the owner of an attractive nuisance has an affirmative obligation to protect people, even strangers and trespassers, from the danger. Swimming pools are probably the classic, and most common, attractive nuisance. Even if local ordinances do not require a fence, anyone with a swimming pool that is not completely fenced off is running a very foolish risk. And in my opinion, a 4 foot chain link fence is not effective enough -- it is simply a challenge that any kid who is minimally agile and adventurous can easily climb or vault over; indeed, it can become part of the attractiveness of the attractive nuisance. And keep in mind that a 4 year old pretty rapidly becomes a 6, 7, and 8 year old.

Don't count on the idea that a parent's failure to supervise a kid who has drowned in your pool will give you a defense in a lawsuit. I don't know how things are in St. Kitts, but in many rural areas and suburban areas, it is acceptable to have kids playing out of doors without immediate and direct supervision, which is why someone maintaining an attractive nuisance has an affirmative obligation to prevent access to the danger.

Just as a matter of common sense, fence your pool off, and use a more effective fence than a 4' chain link fence.

Your cliff may not qualify as an attractive nuisance, but it certainly does present some danger -- and while you may not ultimately be liable for someone injured in falling over the edge, even a lawsuit that you may win is still expensive in money, time, and aggravation. Unless you are in an isolated area with few if any passers-by, if the area is, in fact, open to access, I think a keep out/warning sign may be appropriate -- and a fence with such a sign would be better.

Rum_Pirate
08-25-2017, 01:51 PM
Most states have fence requirements for swimming pools -- and often higher than 4 feet. These laws grow out of the common law notion of an "attractive nuisance" -- a doctrine that recognizes that people, especially children, are often attracted to dangerous things -- and the owner of an attractive nuisance has an affirmative obligation to protect people, even strangers and trespassers, from the danger. Swimming pools are probably the classic, and most common, attractive nuisance. Even if local ordinances do not require a fence, anyone with a swimming pool that is not completely fenced off is running a very foolish risk. And in my opinion, a 4 foot chain link fence is not effective enough -- it is simply a challenge that any kid who is minimally agile and adventurous can easily climb or vault over; indeed, it can become part of the attractiveness of the attractive nuisance. And keep in mind that a 4 year old pretty rapidly becomes a 6, 7, and 8 year old.

Don't count on the idea that a parent's failure to supervise a kid who has drowned in your pool will give you a defense in a lawsuit. I don't know how things are in St. Kitts, but in many rural areas and suburban areas, it is acceptable to have kids playing out of doors without immediate and direct supervision, which is why someone maintaining an attractive nuisance has an affirmative obligation to prevent access to the danger.

Just as a matter of common sense, fence your pool off, and use a more effective fence than a 4' chain link fence.

Your cliff may not qualify as an attractive nuisance, but it certainly does present some danger -- and while you may not ultimately be liable for someone injured in falling over the edge, even a lawsuit that you may win is still expensive in money, time, and aggravation. Unless you are in an isolated area with few if any passers-by, if the area is, in fact, open to access, I think a keep out/warning sign may be appropriate -- and a fence with such a sign would be better.


Thanks for input Greg.

Hardware stores here only stock 5'0" high chainlink fencing.

https://pimg.tradeindia.com/02750277/b/1/Chain-Link-fencing.jpg

I was thinking of hedging off the cliff edge with prickly pear cactus or bordering the edge with giant agave cactus very similar

http://sherman.ninja/spikyshop/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Giant-Agave-cactus4-350x350.jpg

. Guess one would be suesd for getting stuck with the spines/thorns

SKIP KILPATRICK
08-25-2017, 01:52 PM
This will keep the 4 year old out of the pool.

http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2013/03/solarfencing.jpg


http://stuff4petz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Electric-fence-charger.jpg

Stiletto
08-25-2017, 06:54 PM
Chainlink fencing can be climbed up and over by a youngster quicker and easier than just about anyone older.

Phil Y
08-26-2017, 03:07 AM
Here in Australia pool fencing is compulsory and there are published standards about height, design to prevent climbing, self closing child proof gates etc. Its also illegal to discriminate against a potential tenant on grounds that they have children. It's up to you to make the place safe.

PeterSibley
08-26-2017, 03:15 AM
This may be of help. http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Consumers/Product_and_service_safety/Pool_safety/Pool_fencing_requirements.page

Jim Mahan
08-26-2017, 07:10 AM
Don't use chainlink. That stuff is ugly. It is a blight. Do figure out how to fence off the pool and the cliff. but do something other than chainlink.

Some lucky and persuasive salesman conned a bunch of folks in our poorer neighborhoods into putting in short chainlink in their front yards. Only perhaps one in five or ten houses. Who knows when that actually happened, but now the fences are old and dilapidated and make the old little houses, and the entire neighborhood look worse.

If you park a nice clean car on a street by itself and leave it there long enough, it will first get dirty, environmental dirt, bird shirt, etc, then it will begin to be attacked, a little at a time by sheer entropy and passersby with no concern for that car and eventually it will get scratched and stained and then dented and at some point it will become an obvious derelict and it will attract actual destroyers. And ultimately the nice clean car gets demolished in a death by a thousand door bangs.

Chain link fence on a residential property looks like hell when it's new, and gets worse as it ages. There are better alternatives to chainlink. Ask someone like Duncan Gibbs.

PeterSibley
08-26-2017, 07:17 AM
Australian regulation pool fencing . It works. https://www.bluedogfences.com.au/uploads/images/Bluedog_PoolnPlay_16mm_round_upright_38x25_rail_12 00mm_high_charcoal_flat_top_pool_fence.JPG

Paul Pless
08-26-2017, 08:55 AM
State of Florida Swimming Pool Laws (LINK) (http://traveltips.usatoday.com/state-florida-swimming-pool-laws-62689.html)

I'd go an extra step, and add an additional foot at the top, angled outboard at 45 degrees, to discourage persistent people. Paranoia is cheap; fencing, I don't know; lawsuits are never cheap.

can we electrify the fence while we're at it? :D

birlinn
08-26-2017, 10:55 AM
A chap here on Mull electrified the fence round his back garden. It was only after a dead deer was found that it was realised he was sticking 240 volts through it.
Could easily have been a manslaughter charge there.

CWSmith
08-26-2017, 11:03 AM
You could always install one of those invisible fences, if only you could get the 4 year old to wear the collar. :)

Rum_Pirate
08-28-2017, 07:44 AM
Problem solved.

1. Declined the rental to Mother with daughter on safety and liability concerns.

2. Planting a cactus barrier on the cliff edge.

3. Looking for mature single/couple tenant.

SKIP KILPATRICK
08-28-2017, 07:58 AM
Rummy,

I think that is the best solution. I like kids and love having the grandkids visit. But the cute 4 year old is likely to grow into a Denis the Menace..... just because that's what kids do. Dealing with your own kids is one think, but in retirement do you really want to be a Mr. Wilson?


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KS7RcMpgcfQ/hqdefault.jpg

Joe (SoCal)
08-28-2017, 08:02 AM
Familial status is a protected class In the US and you would be sued under the Fair Housing Act of 1968


Federal Laws on Renting to Families. The Fair Housing Act of 1968 made it illegal for landlords to discriminate against prospective tenants with children under the age of 18. Familial status is a protected class according to that law, along with national origin, race, religion, disability, sex or handicap

The next question I would ask is it legal and up to code for you to even rent a portion of your property ?

Lastly, why would you NOT protect your property from risk ? Even without renting would you be comfortable with waking up to find some neighbors kid floating facedown in your pool ?

Rum_Pirate
08-28-2017, 09:36 AM
Familial status is a protected class In the US and you would be sued under the Fair Housing Act of 1968


Federal Laws on Renting to Families. The Fair Housing Act of 1968 made it illegal for landlords to discriminate against prospective tenants with children under the age of 18. Familial status is a protected class according to that law, along with national origin, race, religion, disability, sex or handicap

Well thats in the USA. Would one be sued in the USA if one suddenly realized that the property wasn't up to code and took it off the rental market?

There are no codes for pool or property enclosure here.



Lastly, why would you NOT protect your property from risk ? Even without renting would you be comfortable with waking up to find some neighbors kid floating facedown in your pool ?

I am now putting the last boundary protection at the cliff.

We have no neighbors in over a 1/4 mile radius with any children under 18.
Plus the property is fenced (excepting the cliff) and have four dogs that got 'ape sh!t' when anyone gets close (100 yards) to property.
Our children are over 18.

Rum_Pirate
08-28-2017, 09:44 AM
Rummy,

I think that is the best solution. I like kids and love having the grandkids visit. But the cute 4 year old is likely to grow into a Denis the Menace..... just because that's what kids do. Dealing with your own kids is one think, but in retirement do you really want to be a Mr. Wilson? The 4 year old is a girl and . . . is likely to grow into a Denise the Menace?

Joe (SoCal)
08-28-2017, 09:44 AM
Well thats in the USA. Would one be sued in the USA if one suddenly realized that the property wasn't up to code and took it off the rental market?

You would be sued, if you had a qualified applicant with a small child, then chose to take the property off the market and then AS YOU SAID

3. Looking for mature single/couple tenant. That is a flagrant violation of the Fair Housing Act of 1968

I would look into St. Kitts housing laws and ADA ( known in the U.S. as Americans with Disabilities Act )

The FHA has some pretty strict laws in the US


Prohibited actions The FHAA prohibits a wide array of activities that discriminate against persons with disabilities and families with children in the sale or rental of housing.

The following specifically outlines illegal actions:

• Refusal to sell or rent a dwelling unit when a bona fide offer has been made, where the refusal is based on race, color, religion, sex,disability, familial status or national origin.

• Imposing different terms and conditions or treating people differently with the provision of service because of race, color,religion, sex, disability, familial status or national origin.

• Discouraging an individual from living ina community or neighborhood, if therestriction is based on race, color, religion,sex, disability, familial status or nationalorigin. This activity is frequently referredto as “steering.”

• Advertising, posting notices or makingstatements in such a way as to deny accessto an individual if that denial is based onrace, color, religion, sex, disability, familialstatus or national origin.2Understanding the Fair Housing Amendments ActUnderstanding the Fair Housing Amendments Act

• Misrepresenting the availability of adwelling because of the applicant’s race,color, religion, sex, disability, familialstatus or national origin.

• Blockbusting by encouraging the sale or rental of a dwelling by implying that people of a certain race, color, religion, sex,disability, familial status or origin a reentering the community in large numbers.

Rum_Pirate
08-28-2017, 09:49 AM
You would be sued, if you had a qualified applicant with a small child, then chose to take the property off the market and then AS YOU SAID

3. Looking for mature single/couple tenant. That is a flagrant violation of the Fair Housing Act of 1968

"That is a flagrant violation of the Fair Housing Act of 1968" True, but I am not in the USA.




I would look into St. Kitts housing laws. I had a word with lawyer in discussing issue. Not a problem.


The FHA has some pretty strict laws in the US Probably quite necessary.

Rum_Pirate
08-28-2017, 09:52 AM
Australian regulation pool fencing . It works. https://www.bluedogfences.com.au/uploads/images/Bluedog_PoolnPlay_16mm_round_upright_38x25_rail_12 00mm_high_charcoal_flat_top_pool_fence.JPG

I would consider that a determined 4-6 year old could find a way to get over that.

SKIP KILPATRICK
08-28-2017, 09:52 AM
The 4 year old is a girl and . . . is likely to grow into a Denise the Menace?


Worse! Margret

http://www.dennistvshow.com/resources/Margaret%202.jpg

Rum_Pirate
08-28-2017, 10:02 AM
Worse! Margret

http://www.dennistvshow.com/resources/Margaret%202.jpg


I wonder who would she have married.