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johnw
08-18-2017, 12:07 PM
According to 538.com, his approval rating has gone from 20 points underwater to 17 points underwater in the last week, while making all kinds of weird statements that align him with white supremacists.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo

Even talking about this stuff is evidently better for him than talking about Russia and health care.

Fun fact: About 60% of Americans think Civil War monuments should be left alone. Looks like another case where liberals take on a cause which is unpopular with most of the country until about a decade or more after they've taken it up, and once the country agrees with them, they move on to the next unpopular cause.

Robert E. Lee, when he was president of Washington University (Now Washington and Lee) after the war, prevented a Civil War monument from being put up on campus. He thought it would reopen old wounds. Now, there are statues of him all over the country, mostly put up in three distinct eras: The period when the Jim Crow laws were being passed, the apogee of the KKK in the 1920s, and the period of the Civil Rights movement. I guess the point was to reopen old wounds.

In any case, racism has always been a winning topic for Trump, so it's no surprise that he's returned to it.

johnw
08-18-2017, 03:46 PM
Josh Marshall's take:


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-bomb-bursts-it-will-keep-happeningAs things get worse, as more people turn against him, Trump gets more wild and unbridled. He lashes out more aggressively. There’s no kill switch on this escalating aggression. It only builds. This morning he’s tearing into senators who’ve dared to criticize him and essentially declared war on one who is key to preserving the GOP’s senate majority next year. He compensates for ebbing support by redoubled aggression. It’s a self-reinforcing, self-accelerating cycle. Vicious people can be helpful in a cynical way. But vicious and self-destructive people are dangerous to everyone around them.
Trump will clearly, happily destroy the GOP if he feels the party has proven disloyal to him. Given what’s happened, it would be richly deserved. But Trump’s greatest powers are not as head of the GOP but as head of state of the country. He would happily destroy the country too to sate his own anguished feelings of betrayal. Sound hyperbolic? Why would the pattern be any different written on so large a canvass?

Tom Montgomery
08-18-2017, 03:49 PM
Fun fact: About 60% of Americans think Civil War monuments should be left alone. Looks like another case where liberals take on a cause which is unpopular with most of the country until about a decade or more after they've taken it up, and once the country agrees with them, they move on to the next unpopular cause.
I would be more interested in a poll of the people who actually live in the communities where those monuments stand.

johnw
08-18-2017, 04:01 PM
I would be more interested in a poll of the people who actually live in the communities where those monuments stand.

These are opt-in, and unscientific:

http://www.richmond.com/news/local/city-of-richmond/poll-should-richmond-remove-its-confederate-monuments/poll_70452265-9c50-587f-886e-10bcb46dd990.html

http://wncn.com/2017/08/14/poll-should-confederate-symbols-such-as-monuments-and-flags-be-removed-or-preserved/

Tom Montgomery
08-18-2017, 04:03 PM
These are opt-in, and unscientific
Of course they are.

johnw
08-18-2017, 04:05 PM
Another poll in Nashville: http://wkrn.com/2017/06/21/poll-do-confederate-monuments-or-memorials-offend-you/

switters
08-18-2017, 04:09 PM
His approval rating is not rising among (D) state senators from Missouri.

Ohhhh, never mind.

johnw
08-18-2017, 04:10 PM
His approval rating is not rising among (D) state senators from Missouri.

Ohhhh, never mind.

I suspect it's mainly among conservative Republicans, who mostly liked him already.

Sky Blue
08-18-2017, 04:11 PM
I expected a slight rise in the polling. Trump is the only party to have responded reasonably to Virginia.

His numbers have not been affected by the events in Virginia (nor the lies of the media), while the Left has overreached on it. That'll win him a few points. His perspectives on the matter enjoy wide support among Republican voters, as well.

The monument business also harms Democrats, causing a split, and now a new litmus test, shrinking the tent even further.

David G
08-19-2017, 11:30 AM
It is improving, for the moment. And in the face of all this ugliness about racists. That's disturbing.

OTOH -- if you look at the chart, you'll see that overall the trend is down, and down, and down --

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

David G
08-19-2017, 11:47 AM
https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/86b86b4/2147483647/resize/1160x%3E/quality/90/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2Fd1%2F5d%2F aeb808f14240812d0d7045815b13%2F13-rick-mckee-augusta-chronicle.jpg

Daniel Noyes
08-19-2017, 12:12 PM
It is improving, for the moment. And in the face of all this ugliness about racists. That's disturbing.

OTOH -- if you look at the chart, you'll see that overall the trend is down, and down, and down --

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

actually I'd be far less supprised if the change in approval wer'nt a reaction to the violent cooky extremism of the Left of late...

they (lefties) are out protesting Free Speech in Boston today... lets all hope this sort of sick behavior drives more Americans away from their warped views and fanatical ideologies.

Chris Coose
08-19-2017, 12:21 PM
The anti nazis have got a 2 mile parade going on in Boston. The nazis have departed to return to their bunkers.

Daniel Noyes
08-19-2017, 12:24 PM
The anti nazis have got a 2 mile parade going on in Boston. The nazis have departed to return to their bunkers.

the rally in Boston was supposed to be in support of Free Speech, something the many Wacko liberals in Boston can not stand.

what NAZI? I'd be curious,
sources please?... or is this just more Extremist Liberal NAZI style propoganda... ?

Chris Coose
08-19-2017, 12:26 PM
Nazi scum have abandoned their vile mission in Boston.

Daniel Noyes
08-19-2017, 12:28 PM
Nazi scum have abandoned their vile mission in Boston.

Extremist Leftists rally in Boston against the American Value of Free Speech and the first Amendment... Traitors

Chris Coose
08-19-2017, 12:29 PM
10's of thousands

Daniel Noyes
08-19-2017, 12:30 PM
the rally in Boston was supposed to be in support of Free Speech, something the many Wacko liberals in Boston can not stand.

what NAZI? I'd be curious,
sources please?... or is this just more Extremist Liberal NAZI style propoganda... ?


just what we all thought, no real info, nothing substantial or even true... just spewing more NAZI style propaganda

Norman Bernstein
08-19-2017, 12:30 PM
Extremist Leftists rally in Boston against the American Value of Free Speech and the first Amendment... Traitors

...and they're not actually expressing free speech, themselves? :)

Daniel Noyes
08-19-2017, 12:35 PM
...and they're not actually expressing free speech, themselves? :)

they are using their speech to attack the idea and cultural tradition of Free Speech, and taking the opportunity to state that they are opposed to the first amendment, in short showing themselves to be enemies of the American Constitution and Traitors to the cause of freedom.

Chris Coose
08-19-2017, 12:35 PM
They will teach Nazis about free speech and peaceful demonstration today in Boston.

Nazis have a lot to learn.

Norman Bernstein
08-19-2017, 12:38 PM
they are using their speech to attack the idea and cultural tradition of Free Speech, and taking the opportunity to state that they are opposed to the first amendment....

....while exercising free speech.

Daniel, this is possibly the most profound pretzel logic I've EVER heard... but we've all come to expect this, from you.

So, they are opposed, you say, to the very thing that enables them to gather and protest? :):):)

Daniel Noyes
08-19-2017, 12:43 PM
....while exercising free speech.

Daniel, this is possibly the most profound pretzel logic I've EVER heard... but we've all come to expect this, from you.

So, they are opposed, you say, to the very thing that enables them to gather and protest? :):):)

"profound pretzel logic"... Oh I'm sorry your having trouble with this...

NAZI's gathered in huge numbers to shout down people working for freedom... and there was no Free Speech in Germany... how is Freedom of Speech and expression a prerequisite for fanatical, extremist, Mob expressions of anger and opposition like we are seeing by the Left today???

johnw
08-19-2017, 12:45 PM
Sociologist Fred Block on Trump and racism:


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/--100962
... The nature of the Republican coalition keeps him from moving to the center. Note, that despite all of the talk, there has been no infrastructure plan—essentially, I think, because Ryan and McConnell said that they were against anything that involved a significant budgetary commitment. So all they can do is some smoke and mirrors type of privatizing effort. So basically Trump has nothing to offer the base of white, high school educated voters. He cannot protect their health care or their retirement and he cannot get them jobs.

So what is left? Racism and hostility to immigrants. Interpersonally, he wants people to like him whether they are black, Jewish, or whatever. But he has found racist rhetoric politically empowering for a long time—in campaigning against the Central Park Five and as a birther and it is now—along with saber rattling—one of the only political tools he has.


I think the link to personality is through bullying. Here, I think Josh Marshall is right about the dominance politics—he operates by demeaning others with name calling and threats. And in a bizarre way, he has nearly perfect pitch as a bully—even when his taunts are obviously projections of his own qualities. The resort to racist rhetoric is just another type of bullying that comes completely naturally to him and it is basically impersonal. [He doesn’t actually believe that Ted Cruz is a liar or that Mexicans are rapists, but he still needs to say it.]


So this is his elective affinity with the Klan and the Neo-Nazis. If he condemns them unequivocally, he is embracing the political correctness that says that you are not allowed to demean entire groups based on prejudicial stereotypes. But then he wouldn’t be able to say that Mexicans are rapists and Muslims are terrorists. In short, even with Bannon gone, he does not really have a choice but to double down on racism—it is all he has got.

Norman Bernstein
08-19-2017, 12:46 PM
"profound pretzel logic"... Oh I'm sorry you having trouble with this...


Never mind, Daniel. Anyone who makes statements like 'liberalism is a mental disease' isn't worth ANYONE's time to talk to... it's a form of political fanaticism that is first and foremost, stupid and ignorant... and potentially dangerous, as well. I'm sure you have not the slightest clue as to how vile and despicable you sound... and clearly, nobody here is ever going to help you to see it.

So, you can seethe privately in your unbounded anger.

mmd
08-19-2017, 12:46 PM
It is amazing what diseased, virulent, and violent people some folks will get in bed with and embrace in defence of their ideals, eh, Daniel?

Chris Coose
08-19-2017, 12:50 PM
how is Freedom of Speech and expression a prerequisite for fanatical, extremist, Mob expressions of anger and opposition like we are seeing by the Left today???

It's now a love fest, that is of course till some Nazi drives his vehicle into a mess of them.

Daniel Noyes
08-19-2017, 12:54 PM
Never mind, Daniel. Anyone who makes statements like 'liberalism is a mental disease' isn't worth ANYONE's time to talk to... it's a form of political fanaticism that is first and foremost, stupid and ignorant... and potentially dangerous, as well. I'm sure you have not the slightest clue as to how vile and despicable you sound... and clearly, nobody here is ever going to help you to see it.

So, you can seethe privately in your unbounded anger.

anger? I'm just an impartial voice speaking reason at the shimmering filter bubbles, It's sad when people reach a point where they see simple unadorned truth and interpret it as "Anger"

Daniel Noyes
08-19-2017, 12:55 PM
It's now a love fest, that is of course till some Nazi drives his vehicle into a mess of them.
Nazi, or Muslim, they both seem to like car attacks these days.

Chris Coose
08-19-2017, 12:58 PM
They don't like them, they orchestrate them. Same mindset. Same hatred.

Daniel Noyes
08-19-2017, 12:59 PM
It is amazing what diseased, virulent, and violent people some folks will get in bed with and embrace in defence of their ideals, eh, Daniel?

please.. do tell!

NPR had an interview with the organizer of the rally and they really havent said much bad about the group... untill we hear something negative about the rally organizers why would you choose to call them "diseased, virulent, and violent people"

do you have some info you are not sharing, or are you speaking from ignorance, prejudice and bigotry?

Osborne Russell
08-19-2017, 12:59 PM
Sociologist Fred Block on Trump and racism:

That's some insightful stuff.

Trump has to have everyone like him, inside or outside of the tribe, but that doesn't make the tribalists like him, so he has to be tribal and anti-tribal by turns.

A lot of history and simple logic is against him, but he's one of these ones for whom anything in history or logic is dissolved by the strength of his ego. He wants it so badly he simply doesn't allow himself to be hindered by anything, for very long anyway.

But, thinks he, it's not mere selfishness. He could be so good for everybody if they just made him Fuhrer !

Daniel Noyes
08-19-2017, 12:59 PM
They don't like them, they orchestrate them. Same mindset. Same hatred.

Soooo true!

Norman Bernstein
08-19-2017, 01:35 PM
anger? I'm just an impartial voice speaking reason at the shimmering filter bubbles, It's sad when people reach a point where they see simple unadorned truth and interpret it as "Anger"

HHAHAHA... you're the new reference standard for 'truth'? :):)

mmd
08-19-2017, 01:56 PM
Daniel, you are so easily distracted by your own radicalism. The "diseased, virulent, and violent people" are the Nazis and KKK.

But you probably knew that, and ignored it to further you own agenda...

Canoeyawl
08-19-2017, 02:07 PM
We get it Daniel; You don't want them to speak.

Sheese!

johnw
08-19-2017, 02:17 PM
That's some insightful stuff.

Trump has to have everyone like him, inside or outside of the tribe, but that doesn't make the tribalists like him, so he has to be tribal and anti-tribal by turns.

A lot of history and simple logic is against him, but he's one of these ones for whom anything in history or logic is dissolved by the strength of his ego. He wants it so badly he simply doesn't allow himself to be hindered by anything, for very long anyway.

But, thinks he, it's not mere selfishness. He could be so good for everybody if they just made him Fuhrer !

https://cabalamat.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/fewer.png?w=640

johnw
08-19-2017, 02:18 PM
We get it Daniel; You don't want them to speak.

Sheese!

So, there really are people who don't have him on ignore.

LeeG
08-19-2017, 02:33 PM
Another poll in Nashville: http://wkrn.com/2017/06/21/poll-do-confederate-monuments-or-memorials-offend-you/

I thought that would be a poll about DT being offending

mdh
08-19-2017, 05:27 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/18/trump-can-rebound-politcally-and-probably-will--again-commentary.html

Sky Blue
08-19-2017, 10:29 PM
He would not have been elected were it easy to dispose of him. I anticipate he'll be obstructed well more than Mr. Obama was, and then some. It is just a moment in history.

C. Ross
08-19-2017, 11:01 PM
Really, President Trump will be obstructed? By whom, exactly? Is he being obstructed now?

Sky Blue
08-19-2017, 11:15 PM
Really, President Trump will be obstructed? By whom, exactly? Is he being obstructed now?

It depends on who you ask.;)

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?222822-Is-Trump-the-weakest-president-of-modern-times&

C. Ross
08-19-2017, 11:34 PM
It depends on who you ask.;)

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?222822-Is-Trump-the-weakest-president-of-modern-times&

I'm asking you.

johnw
08-20-2017, 01:17 PM
He would not have been elected were it easy to dispose of him. I anticipate he'll be obstructed well more than Mr. Obama was, and then some. It is just a moment in history.
Now, that's just silly. Obama was obstructed by both houses of congress when they were controlled by the other party. Republicans control the presidency, both houses of congress, and an increasing share of the judiciary.

The main problem Trump has is that he doesn't know what he's doing, and beyond shouting slogans, he doesn't know what to do.

S.V. Airlie
08-20-2017, 01:24 PM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sky Blue http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=5320345#post5320345)
He would not have been elected were it easy to dispose of him. I anticipate he'll be obstructed well more than Mr. Obama was, and then some. It is just a moment in history.





You certainly have warped view of what the heck is going on don't you SB?

johnw
08-20-2017, 01:54 PM
So, here's a theory on how Trump could see his approval continuing to improve. He doesn't actually like carrying out the duties of the most powerful man in the world, he just wants to be regarded as that guy. So, he's fired the person who tried hardest to make Trump's vision, as articulated on the campaign trail, come to pass, because he doesn't actually care about passing a Trump agenda. He wants to be the center of attention, a figurehead allowed to say any crazy thing he wants, but accountable for nothing. Washington is starting to catch on.





https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/18/16169464/steve-bannon-fired-donald-trump

White House staff, congressional Republicans, military leaders, and executive branch officials are increasingly confident simply ignoring President Trump. After Trump tweeted that he wanted the military to ban transgender service members from serving, for instance, the Pentagon quickly said (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/pentagon-says-trumps-transgender-tweet-was-not-an-order/article/2630201) that it had not received an official order and was going to carry on with business as usual until it did. Similarly, after Trump tweeted his threats at North Korea, the key organs of American foreign policymaking — the State Department, the Defense Department, and so on — were quick to declare (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/09/us/politics/north-korea-nuclear-threat-rex-tillerson.html?mcubz=0&_r=0) that nothing had changed, there was no military buildup or new red lines, and everyone should just ignore the commander in chief’s morning outburst.

A list like this could go on. Senate Republicans are ignoring the president’s demand to keep holding votes on health reform. The National Economic Council, the Office of Management and Budget, the Treasury Department, and the Department of Health and Human Services are ignoring Trump’s campaign promises to raise taxes on the rich and protect Social Security and Medicaid from cuts. Attorney General Jeff Sessions — one of the few executive branch officials who seems to ideologically align with Trump — is ignoring Trump’s clear desire that he resign, or at least take a more aggressive hand overseeing Bob Mueller.


A Washington where Trump continues to tweet and talk like the right's id, while General Kelly actually runs the country, would be more stable and more popular than one where Trump says silly things and the people around him try to make them happen.

If Trump stays, there will be no Trump revolution. There will be a grumpy old man shouting at the neighbor kids while the usual suspects on the Republican side of the fence run the show. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Sorry Sky, sorry Noysemaker, you got taken in.

And I think Klein is right, that's how Trump wants it.

john welsford
08-20-2017, 02:50 PM
Clip from #47.

"A Washington where Trump continues to tweet and talk like the right's id, while General Kelly actually runs the country, would be more stable and more popular than one where Trump says silly things and the people around him try to make them happen."

That might actually be more tolerable than having a religious extremist VP take over the reins.

John Welsford

johnw
08-20-2017, 03:24 PM
Clip from #47.

"A Washington where Trump continues to tweet and talk like the right's id, while General Kelly actually runs the country, would be more stable and more popular than one where Trump says silly things and the people around him try to make them happen."

That might actually be more tolerable than having a religious extremist VP take over the reins.

John Welsford
It's one way to deal with a mad king.

Sky Blue
08-20-2017, 06:50 PM
This piece describes the basis for my analysis of Trump's polling in the wake of Charlottesville.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/19/us/politics/trump-supporters.html

Chris249
08-20-2017, 08:49 PM
From the outside, it does appear to be a reasonably fair summary. I'm probably well to the left of most of the Dems here, but with respect the discourse on both sides does seem to be very polarised. It may just be a cultural matter but maybe it does point to a certain type of tendency towards extremism, arguably created by the voting system.

mdh
08-20-2017, 10:30 PM
This piece describes the basis for my analysis of Trump's polling in the wake of Charlottesville.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/19/us/politics/trump-supporters.html

I can't see it for less than $10, but i think i've seen it. This is some on site reporting by NYT reporter, before she got censored: http://www.dailywire.com/news/19673/ny-times-reporter-admits-antifa-protesters-james-barrett

johnw
08-21-2017, 11:29 AM
I can't see it for less than $10, but i think i've seen it. This is some on site reporting by NYT reporter, before she got censored: http://www.dailywire.com/news/19673/ny-times-reporter-admits-antifa-protesters-james-barrett
It pretty much says what I've already said, the behavior that offends Democrats and independents is fine with Republicans.