PDA

View Full Version : America?



Canoez
08-16-2017, 11:08 AM
Forgive my ramblings, but I felt this needed to be said.

What has become of the America I knew?

As a young person, I was surrounded by veterans of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. Men and women who had served their country. They were politicians, community leaders, and teachers. They were members of the VFW, the American Legion and many other civic organizations. The attended the church that I did. They were leaders in the Boy Scouts.

They told us of the horrors of war, of hatred and exclusion of others. They told of the Holocaust and the dangers of Facism, despots and dictators. They taught us the lessions of the past and about civics, the rule of law, personal rights and responsibilities. They taught us about government and the Constitution in the hopes that our generation would not have to experience what they had. I can recall being at Boy's State - an event hosted by the American Legion to teach civics in the hopes that political action and diplomacy would prevent future wars. Our State's American Legion Commander, speaking to our group told us that the goal of his organization was to assure the eradication of the organization - that there would not be a need for veterans in the future.

Today, we see people carrying the Nazi flag - the flag of our enemies. We see people carrying the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia - traitors to our nation. We hear anti-Semitic, xenophobic, racist, and homophobic slogans and chants in our streets. What lesson of the past did these people miss? What reason was there for teaching these people hatred?

These people self-identify as being traitors, the enemy, and are selective in their support of the Constitution - what applies to them is great, but what applies to others is not. You cannot pick and choose. The purpose of their rallies is to incite others as has been seen again and again. While we have freedom of speech, that right does not extend to speech intended to incite violence or lawless activity.

That the person presently occupying the Oval Office does not see what is before him for what it is, is appalling.

What next?

oznabrag
08-16-2017, 11:48 AM
In 1776, or so, we chose to rest upon the horns of this dilemma.

If one advocates for speaking one's mind, one must also advocate for others speaking theirs.


Once the right is secured, those with evil intent game that right, and demagogue their way into power.


It will be ever thus until we recognize, as other Nations have, that a free society can not condone the ruin of that society and remain free.

Canoez
08-16-2017, 11:57 AM
In the same way that you can't walk into a crowded theater and yell "Fire!", you cannot be in public and incite others to lawlessness by your words or actions.

Arizona Bay
08-16-2017, 12:01 PM
Saw this today:


Philosopher Karl Popper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper) defined the paradox in 1945 in The Open Society and Its Enemies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Society_and_Its_Enemies) Vol. 1.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance#cite_note-1)
Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

He concluded that we are warranted in refusing to tolerate intolerance: "We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."

AlanMc
08-16-2017, 12:03 PM
incite others to lawlessness...

so you guys can't listen to a moron ranting about something without breaking out into a riot?

what do you want to do with the nazis? what do you want to do with the muslim brotherhood? re-education camps? concentration camps? gas chambers? public hangings? if you get rid of the fringe nuts, who is next on the list? and more importantly, WHO MAKES THAT LIST?

amish rob
08-16-2017, 12:07 PM
Nazis.

Remember what they did? What they stand for? Are there any rational people anywhere in the world who agree with Nazi politics?

They don't get to make a comeback.

You can speak, sure, but you can't be a Nazi and try to bring Nazis into power again. No more Nazis. We already answered the Nazi question. The answer is No Nazis.

Peace,
Robert

Canoez
08-16-2017, 12:10 PM
Nazis.

Remember what they did? What they stand for? Are there any rational people anywhere in the world who agree with Nazi politics?

They don't get to make a comeback.

You can speak, sure, but you can't be a Nazi and try to bring Nazis into power again. No more Nazis. We already answered the Nazi question. The answer is No Nazis.

Peace,
Robert

Peace, indeed.

jack grebe
08-16-2017, 12:15 PM
Nazis.

Remember what they did? What they stand for? Are there any rational people anywhere in the world who agree with Nazi politics?

They don't get to make a comeback.

You can speak, sure, but you can't be a Nazi and try to bring Nazis into power again. No more Nazis. We already answered the Nazi question. The answer is No Nazis.

Peace,
Robert

As much as I disagree with the theology of Nazis, we don't have the authority
To stop it. What next, Christians? Gays?, Athiests? Etc.......

It's a Pandora's box we don't want to open.....

AlanMc
08-16-2017, 12:16 PM
Nazis.

Remember what they did? What they stand for? Are there any rational people anywhere in the world who agree with Nazi politics?

They don't get to make a comeback.

You can speak, sure, but you can't be a Nazi and try to bring Nazis into power again. No more Nazis. We already answered the Nazi question. The answer is No Nazis.

Peace,
Robert



i keep asking if anyone has numbers for the nazis over the years but no one seems to have any. i'm really wanting to know HOW MANY stupid nazis there are today, how many there were a decade ago, etc. are there nazis "coming to power" ? or is it a dwindling number of buffoons over time? i doubt there's that many nazis. and as time goes on, there will be less nazis. and i really don't think beating up nazis for spouting off their beliefs helps get rid of nazis but rather emboldens them.

oznabrag
08-16-2017, 12:18 PM
incite others to lawlessness...

so you guys can't listen to a moron ranting about something without breaking out into a riot?

what do you want to do with the nazis? what do you want to do with the muslim brotherhood? re-education camps? concentration camps? gas chambers? public hangings? if you get rid of the fringe nuts, who is next on the list? and more importantly, WHO MAKES THAT LIST?

Well, yeah, I can, but ol' Gooberhead in the car at Charlottesville sure as heck can't.

I think the first step in dealing with them is to sever their right to vote.

Then, develop a criminal code, much as Germany has done, that declares in no uncertain terms that Nazism/Neo-Confederacy will NOT be tolerated.

That'd be a start.

oznabrag
08-16-2017, 12:21 PM
i keep asking if anyone has numbers for the nazis over the years but no one seems to have any. i'm really wanting to know HOW MANY stupid nazis there are today, how many there were a decade ago, etc. are there nazis "coming to power" ? or is it a dwindling number of buffoons over time? i doubt there's that many nazis. and as time goes on, there will be less nazis. and i really don't think beating up nazis for spouting off their beliefs helps get rid of nazis but rather emboldens them.

There's apparently enough Neo-Nazis/Neo-Confederates to turn the recent Presidential Election.

That's way too many.


You got 34% of the people in this country who can legitimately be called Nazi Sympathizers.

Don't worry though.

By next week it'll be below 30.

jack grebe
08-16-2017, 12:21 PM
Well, yeah, I can, but ol' Gooberhead in the car at Charlottesville sure as heck can't.

I think the first step in dealing with them is to sever their right to vote.

Then, develop a criminal code, much as Germany has done, that declares in no uncertain terms that Nazism/Neo-Confederacy will NOT be tolerated.

That'd be a start.

Why do you hate the Constitution?

AlanMc
08-16-2017, 12:24 PM
Well, yeah, I can, but ol' Gooberhead in the car at Charlottesville sure as heck can't.

I think the first step in dealing with them is to sever their right to vote.

Then, develop a criminal code, much as Germany has done, that declares in no uncertain terms that Nazism/Neo-Confederacy will NOT be tolerated.

That'd be a start.



hahhaha, let's take voting rights from people who don't vote like we want! EXCELLENT idea.

Canoez
08-16-2017, 12:24 PM
Why do you hate the Constitution?

Here's the problem - you can't pick and choose what parts of the Constitution apply to you and others - the way that the Neo-Nazis and white supremacists would like to do.

amish rob
08-16-2017, 12:25 PM
As much as I disagree with the theology of Nazis, we don't have the authority
To stop it. What next, Christians? Gays?, Athiests? Etc.......

It's a Pandora's box we don't want to open.....

Jack,
The Nazis did horrific things. To our relatives. People we all knew.

Don't be trite.

Don't.

Nazis, dude. When you assemble and March under the Nazi flag, you're an enemy of everyone. Even the Soviets hated the Nazis, yo.

Nazis.

You go find one of your WWII buddies and tell him you think it's fine we got Nazis marching around.

These people could have dressed in any manner and protested. They chose to be Nazis. We closed the book on Nazis. Shoot, if they find a real, old school Nazi nowadays, they still try them for crimes.

Nazis. That's who these people are siding with. That's who they are. They look at Hitler, and think, "Hey, he got stuff done." They don't look at him and see a monster, they see an idol.

Nazis.

Peace,
Robert

P.S. Those other people on your list would certainly be rounded up by Nazis and put into camps. We KNOW what they would do, given half a chance...

AlanMc
08-16-2017, 12:26 PM
There's apparently enough Neo-Nazis/Neo-Confederates to turn the recent Presidential Election.

That's way too many.


You got 34% of the people in this country who can legitimately be called Nazi Sympathizers.

Don't worry though.

By next week it'll be below 30.



nazi runs someone over, oz calls half the country nazi sympathizers. and you wonder why hillary lost.

amish rob
08-16-2017, 12:27 PM
i keep asking if anyone has numbers for the nazis over the years but no one seems to have any. i'm really wanting to know HOW MANY stupid nazis there are today, how many there were a decade ago, etc. are there nazis "coming to power" ? or is it a dwindling number of buffoons over time? i doubt there's that many nazis. and as time goes on, there will be less nazis. and i really don't think beating up nazis for spouting off their beliefs helps get rid of nazis but rather emboldens them.
Some of the people marching at the rally in Charlottesville were wearing Nazi regalia and carrying Nazi flags. They are unquestionably Nazis, and the people I'm referring to. That many is too many.

Peace,
Robert

AlanMc
08-16-2017, 12:28 PM
Jack,
The Nazis did horrific things. To our relatives. People we all knew.

Don't be trite.

Don't.

Nazis, dude. When you assemble and March under the Nazi flag, you're an enemy of everyone. Even the Soviets hated the Nazis, yo.

Nazis.

You go find one of your WWII buddies and tell him you think it's fine we got Nazis marching around.

These people could have dressed in any manner and protested. They chose to be Nazis. We closed the book on Nazis. Shoot, if they find a real, old school Nazi nowadays, they still try them for crimes.

Nazis. That's who these people are siding with. That's who they are. They look at Hitler, and think, "Hey, he got stuff done." They don't look at him and see a monster, they see an idol.

Nazis.

Peace,
Robert

P.S. Those other people on your list would certainly be rounded up by Nazis and put into camps. We KNOW what they would do, given half a chance...


well rob, are you going to kill the nazis? what do you propose to do with them?

Jim Bow
08-16-2017, 12:29 PM
Why, oh why, can't Trump unequivocally denounce the people who would euthanize his own daughter, her husband, and his own grandchildren?

Canoez
08-16-2017, 12:30 PM
well rob, are you going to kill the nazis? what do you propose to do with them?

What would you do with an enemy of the State?

jack grebe
08-16-2017, 12:31 PM
A Mish, I don't support their message one bit, I will support, however, their, and anyone else's
Right to speak......

When we start regulating speech because we don't like the message, we go
against everything the Constitution stands for.

Canoez
08-16-2017, 12:32 PM
http://i68.tinypic.com/350p45c.jpg

AlanMc
08-16-2017, 12:36 PM
Why, oh why, can't Trump unequivocally denounce the people who would euthanize his own daughter, her husband, and his own grandchildren?




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgtxrCD9iCk

amish rob
08-16-2017, 12:36 PM
well rob, are you going to kill the nazis? what do you propose to do with them?

You can be trite all you want. I saw the pictures of my grandad crying over his fallen comrades when he finally saw the WWII memorial.

They were Nazis that killed his friends and injured him. Nazis.

What am I going to do personally? Silly.

I have stated many times here that I am peaceful by choice, but I am no stranger to violence. Were there Nazis attempting to assert power here, I would march against them, and if they wished to fight, you better believe I would sell my life dearly to battle scumbags like Nazis.

I believe everyone has a right to exist. Nazis don't. While it would be ideal to allow them the right to flourish, we already did that. It backfired, and cost us a generation.

No Nazis.

Peace,
Robert

AlanMc
08-16-2017, 12:38 PM
What would you do with an enemy of the State?



what? man, you guys and your pitch forks and torches. if they COMMIT A CRIME then arrest them for the crime committed. otherwise, they get to be as free as you or me. are they BREAKING A LAW by thinking wrong thoughts?

Canoez
08-16-2017, 12:39 PM
Inciting a riot? Sounds criminal to me.

Domestic terrorism with the death of a young woman and the injury of many others? Sounds criminal to me.

Charge them, show them for what they are and move on.

I won't be waiting around for my copy of Mein Trumpf.

jack grebe
08-16-2017, 12:39 PM
That is a very slippery slope........

Canoez
08-16-2017, 12:43 PM
That is a very slippery slope........

No, actually. So long as you recognize the limits. Germany has managed to do so, certainly we can.

Jim Mahan
08-16-2017, 12:43 PM
That the person presently occupying the Oval Office does not see what is before him for what it is, is appalling.

He claims to see it differently and likes it. He likes it. It serves him.

He doesn't care whether it is about nazis or confederates or racists. He only cares whether or not it serves him; if it does, he likes it.

If it threatens him; he will trash it instantly.

But his sporters like it, too. And they feel him liking it in support, and so they like it.

If you just are willing to see it differently, the civil war if honorable and so is keeping the white northern aryans pure. Did you hear session's comments about the removal of confederate statues? He almost had an orgasm just referring to the glory of the illustrious in righteous battle... for states rights.

He likes it, too.

LeeG
08-16-2017, 12:43 PM
Unhappy white folks feeling victimized now have their president. Won't last long because he cannot deliver. Article from last fall below.

https://theconversation.com/the-seeds-of-the-alt-right-americas-emergent-right-wing-populist-movement-69036

Long relegated to the cultural and political fringe, alt-right activists were among the most enthusiastic supporters of Donald Trump. Former Breitbart.com executive Steve Bannon – who declared the website “the platform for the alt-right” – is the President’s chief political strategist.

I’ve spent years extensively researching the American far right, and the movement seems more energized than ever. To its critics, the alt-right is just a code term for white nationalism, a much-maligned ideology associated with neo-Nazis and Klansmen. The movement, however, is more nuanced, encompassing a much broader spectrum of right-wing activists and intellectuals.

AlanMc
08-16-2017, 12:43 PM
You can be trite all you want. I saw the pictures of my grandad crying over his fallen comrades when he finally saw the WWII memorial.

They were Nazis that killed his friends and injured him. Nazis.

What am I going to do personally? Silly.

I have stated many times here that I am peaceful by choice, but I am no stranger to violence. Were there Nazis attempting to assert power here, I would march against them, and if they wished to fight, you better believe I would sell my life dearly to battle scumbags like Nazis.

I believe everyone has a right to exist. Nazis don't. While it would be ideal to allow them the right to flourish, we already did that. It backfired, and cost us a generation.

No Nazis.

Peace,
Robert



trite? hardly. go get the lists of nazi group members. what are you going to do with them? you say they have "no right to exist". so you want them dead i suppose. do you want the government to kill them for you?



we're always going to have fringe nuts. and in america, you don't lose your right to exist b/c of your beliefs. if the nazis ACT on those beliefs, i'm all for maximum punishments.

amish rob
08-16-2017, 12:47 PM
A Mish, I don't support their message one bit, I will support, however, their, and anyone else's
Right to speak......

When we start regulating speech because we don't like the message, we go
against everything the Constitution stands for.

No, Jack.

They have Constitutional protection, which is why they were speaking. The rest of the country also has Constitutional protection, which is why they were speaking. The punching and kicking and all? Well...

See, the government allows them to speak, and then the people tell them their message of hatred is unwelcome. The only ones who got their feelings hurt are the big, bad, Nazis, who are crying foul.

The people, meanwhile, rally with love around their fallen dead, and continue to resist Nazi ideals. Drop the Nazi schtick and come join the gang, is the refrain.

It's the Nazi deal, man. Nazis. Not hateful people, not people I disagree with, not American citizens. Nazis.
Nazis. If it dresses like a Nazi, and carries a flag like a Nazi, it's a Nazi.

The debate over Nazis was settled decades ago, and the price was the blood of millions.

No Nazis.

Peace,
Robert

oznabrag
08-16-2017, 12:47 PM
hahhaha, let's take voting rights from people who don't vote like we want! EXCELLENT idea.
That's not what I said. I said that this particular sedition should be countered aggressively.
Because that's what it is.

oznabrag
08-16-2017, 12:49 PM
nazi runs someone over, oz calls half the country nazi sympathizers. and you wonder why hillary lost.
Not half , 34%

Osborne Russell
08-16-2017, 12:50 PM
incite others to lawlessness...

so you guys can't listen to a moron ranting about something without breaking out into a riot?

what do you want to do with the nazis? what do you want to do with the muslim brotherhood? re-education camps? concentration camps? gas chambers? public hangings? if you get rid of the fringe nuts, who is next on the list? and more importantly, WHO MAKES THAT LIST?

We make the list. Who's at the top are that pose the most immediate and gravest threat. Something your false equivalence cannot recognize, let alone measure. Because your purpose is to misdirect. The Muslim Brotherhood and all the Muslims in the world are not even in the same league as a bunch of tiki torch Nazis, in terms of being a threat to America, when the President is their friend.

amish rob
08-16-2017, 12:52 PM
trite? hardly. go get the lists of nazi group members. what are you going to do with them? you say they have "no right to exist". so you want them dead i suppose. do you want the government to kill them for you?



we're always going to have fringe nuts. and in america, you don't lose your right to exist b/c of your beliefs. if the nazis ACT on those beliefs, i'm all for maximum punishments.

I will allow you to continue defending Nazis who were actively marching. In the USA. In 2017. The same year two Chinese kids got arrested for fake Nazi salutes in Germany.
Because No Nazis.

Oh, and I will allow you to continue to pretend this is my personal problem to deal with. For the record, I think they should all be given their very own town, with a very high wall around it, and no doors. That is a win for everyone, because we would all get what we want.


Peace,
Robert

Osborne Russell
08-16-2017, 12:57 PM
nazi runs someone over, oz calls half the country nazi sympathizers. and you wonder why hillary lost.

Nobody forced them to vote for Trump. Actions have consequences.

They elected a guy that said he could shoot someone in the middle of the street. They wanted him to destroy the government. Remember?

It would be a pity if something were to happen to them.

Osborne Russell
08-16-2017, 01:11 PM
Gotta get down to it
Nazis are running us down
Shoulda been done long ago
What if you knew her and
Found her dead on the ground
How can you run when you know

-- apologies to Neil Young

AlanMc
08-16-2017, 01:15 PM
I will allow you to continue defending Nazis who were actively marching. In the USA. In 2017. The same year two Chinese kids got arrested for fake Nazi salutes in Germany.
Because No Nazis.

Oh, and I will allow you to continue to pretend this is my personal problem to deal with. For the record, I think they should all be given their very own town, with a very high wall around it, and no doors. That is a win for everyone, because we would all get what we want.


Peace,
Robert



i'm not defending nazis. i'm defending your rights. unfortunately, those things overlap sometimes.

Keith Wilson
08-16-2017, 01:18 PM
Despite what Alan McStrawman claims, the main problem isn't that a relatively few fools had a march in Charlottesville. As vile as they are, it's a big country and you can find quite few people who subscribe to just about any ideology, no matter how horrible. The major problem is that Mr. Trump got up in public and made excuses for them.

peb
08-16-2017, 01:22 PM
Let's not turn this moment into longing for the good old days when American was pure and fighting Nazis in WWII. Truth be told, America has always done great things while some Americans are pretty sorry folks. I strongly suspect we are no worse off now, than in 1945. Let's not forget there were more than a few black soldiers after the war who would have rather stayed in England than come back home.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk

Keith Wilson
08-16-2017, 01:28 PM
Indeed. We are much better off in most respects than we were in 1945.

mdh
08-16-2017, 01:33 PM
Despite what Alan McStrawman claims, the main problem isn't that a relatively few fools had a march in Charlottesville. As vile as they are, it's a big country and you can find quite few people who subscribe to just about any ideology, no matter how horrible. The major problem is that Mr. Trump got up in public and made excuses for them.

What excuse did he make?

Keith Wilson
08-16-2017, 01:34 PM
Did you listen to the press conference?

mdh
08-16-2017, 02:12 PM
Did you listen to the press conference?

Are you going to answer the question, or evade it?

The major problem is that Mr. Trump got up in public and made excuses for them.

What excuses did he make?

Keith Wilson
08-16-2017, 02:45 PM
Here you go, the president of the US making excuses for neo-Nazis.


Donald Trump has been accused of drawing a false equivalence between racists and anti-racists in his inflammatory press conference in Trump Tower on Tuesday. But if you listen closely to Trump’s remarks about the weekend clash in Charlottesville, they are actually much worse. The president goes out of his way to celebrate those who rallied under Nazi and white nationalists banners to protest the removal of a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee, and to denounce the counter-protestors.

“There were people in that rally—and I looked the night before,” Trump said, referring to Friday. “If you look, there were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day it looked like they had some rough, bad people: neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest, and very legally protest—because you know, I don’t know if you know, they had a permit.” By contrast, Trump scorned the counter-protesters, whom he called the “alt-left,” saying they “came charging in without a permit and they were very, very violent.”

By Trump’s account, on the one side you have a group of legal, peaceful protesters and on the other side violent, disruptive counter-protesters. This depiction is at odds with the facts. Source (https://newrepublic.com/article/144358/trumps-fan-service-base-tearing-america-apart).

Sky Blue
08-16-2017, 02:58 PM
Did you listen to the press conference?

Did you?

Sky Blue
08-16-2017, 03:04 PM
We know that permitted demonstrators have the right to peaceably assemble and speak freely, no matter how odious the speech.

Is it OK then for Antifa to physically assault those with whom they disagree politically? Just because?

Sky Blue
08-16-2017, 03:06 PM
Should the mob be allowed to vandalize public property, with no process or audit, whenever they feel moved to do so?

Canoez
08-16-2017, 03:14 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-40952796/what-trump-said-versus-what-i-saw

LeeG
08-16-2017, 03:18 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-40952796/what-trump-said-versus-what-i-saw

Ok, just watched the BBC clip, again Trump says nonsensical things. With a column of torch bearing marchers yelling "Jews will not replace us" Trump says there were quiet protesters, I guess they were the quiet ones saying "Jews will not replace us" in a soft quiet voice. The point is nonsense, "hey, I'm quietly marching with the nazi torch bearers"

One of the more idiotic statements by Trump, besides his largest winery, is that he watched the news more than the news does.

TRUMP: I will tell you something. I watched those very closely, much more closely than you people watched it.

skuthorp
08-16-2017, 03:22 PM
Allan Mac, Jack, familiar with the phrase ''fellow traveller"?

"a person who is not a member of a particular group or political party (especially the Communist Party), but who sympathizes with the group's aims and policies."

Especially the ……….. party. In this case Nazi.

mdh
08-16-2017, 03:51 PM
Yeah Keith, i was thinking more along the lines of you quoting the excuses he 'made'. Guess not.

McMike
08-16-2017, 05:21 PM
I'll post it again; We fought a world war against Nazis, we defeated them and their ideas, as a nation, we also fought and beat the traitors who wanted to cut the country in half over slavery. There is no gray area here. Anybody who fly's the confederate battle flag or brandishes a swastika is a traitor and not American. Their ideas are threatening, and therefore, are not protected by the 1st Amendment.

jack grebe
08-16-2017, 05:34 PM
I'll post it again; We fought a world war against Nazis, we defeated them and their ideas, as a nation, we also fought and beat the traitors who wanted to cut the country in half over slavery. There is no gray area here. Anybody who fly's the confederate battle flag or brandishes a swastika is a traitor and not American. Their ideas are threatening, and therefore, are not protected by the 1st Amendment.

Obviously the government does not agree with you.......

jack grebe
08-16-2017, 05:37 PM
Allan Mac, Jack, familiar with the phrase ''fellow traveller"?

"a person who is not a member of a particular group or political party (especially the Communist Party), but who sympathizes with the group's aims and policies."

Especially the ……….. party. In this case Nazi.

Please show me where I sympathize with them.......


I merely stated the obvious, they have a constitutional right to free speech,
whether others like what they have to say or not........

skuthorp
08-16-2017, 05:41 PM
You've been skating around it for months Jack. You have little credibility left with me at least

mmd
08-16-2017, 05:47 PM
I'll toss this bone to you dogs to chew and fight over. It is from Wiki, but valid if only for the fact that it dispenses with the legal jargon of the actual law. Emphasis is mine:

"Section 319 of the Criminal Code of Canada prescribes penalties from a fine to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years for anyone who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace."

I would propose that the chants of the neo-nazis and white supremacists would be actionable under this law. Maybe your citizens' public discourse would be a bit more, um, polite if you faced a couple of years in the slammer for being hateful in public.


Just sayin'...

mdh
08-16-2017, 05:58 PM
I'll toss this bone to you dogs to chew and fight over. It is from Wiki, but valid if only for the fact that it dispenses with the legal jargon of the actual law. Emphasis is mine:

"Section 319 of the Criminal Code of Canada prescribes penalties from a fine to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years for anyone who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace."

I would propose that the chants of the neo-nazis and white supremacists would be actionable under this law. Maybe your citizens' public discourse would be a bit more, um, polite if you faced a couple of years in the slammer for being hateful in public.


Just sayin'...


I don't want to rely on a law that uses "hatred" and "likely to", just too vague. Think, on one hand, Ann Coulter on a stage: on the other hand, Ann with a badge.

Osborne Russell
08-16-2017, 06:03 PM
Maybe your citizens' public discourse would be a bit more, um, polite if you faced a couple of years in the slammer for being hateful in public.


Polite like a prison exercise yard.

PeterSibley
08-16-2017, 06:07 PM
As much as I disagree with the theology of Nazis, we don't have the authority
To stop it. What next, Christians? Gays?, Athiests? Etc.......

It's a Pandora's box we don't want to open.....

How about just banning the symbols of those the USA has been to war with ? That's a relatively shallow box..... not Pandora's.

mdh
08-16-2017, 06:09 PM
How about just banning the symbols of those the USA has been to war with ? That's a relatively shallow box..... not Pandora's.

Would that include injun symbols?

mmd
08-16-2017, 06:12 PM
Well, mdh, they may be vague terms to you, but they seem to mitigate violence in the streets here, as opposed to the pitiful displays of your citizen's polite discourse on the weekend.

McMike
08-16-2017, 06:15 PM
Obviously the government does not agree with you.......

They can be replaced. A question; what happened to, you're rights end where mine begin? When a Nazi threatens me with removal or if I don't let him have his way, death, it pretty much ends my pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.

Here's the thing, we will win over the racists. We will drive them back into their holes.

mdh
08-16-2017, 06:20 PM
Well, mdh, they may be vague terms to you, but they seem to mitigate violence in the streets here, as opposed to the pitiful displays of your citizen's polite discourse on the weekend.

Somewhat, but Singapore has even less: shouldn't you consider adapting their laws? Our laws are fine, however there was a lack of enforcement in Charlottesville, the other day.

mmd
08-16-2017, 06:24 PM
We do look at what other countries do to protect their society, and adopt and adapt as we see fit. We try not to have such levels of hubris as to think that our laws and society are the best there is.

Hallam
08-16-2017, 06:30 PM
As much as I disagree with the theology of Nazis, we don't have the authority
To stop it. What next, Christians? Gays?, Athiests? Etc.......

It's a Pandora's box we don't want to open.....

It's not a theology. As I have read the consistency of your posts over time, I rarely see an in depth clarification of the points you want to make, just simple statements with no real follow up to clarify and improve understanding of your position. Just posts that seem to fit very well into a narrow focus of being charlie opposite. Lets hear a well thought out line of statements showing what you really think.

For starters unpack this statement of yours:
........Nazis, we don't have the authority
To stop it.

Those people carrying the swastika flag through Charlottesville are aligning themselves with the holocaust and all that Hitler stood and fought for Jack, and your commentary......?


As much as I disagree with the theology of Nazis, we don't have the authority
To stop it. What next, Christians? Gays?, Athiests?

.......more that shameful....... complicit acceptance........would you go to war to defend your country against Hitler's army?

Is this merely a pitiful example of your propensity for bad communication? That you are a poor communicator I'm sure of, but there is more to it for you I suspect. What that is i can't say as false assumptions pave the way to prejudice!

I am beginning to think your presence on this forum is that of a troll. If I don't see any evidence from your postings proving me wrong you will be the first on my ignore list......not that it would bother you in the slightest.


https://s19.postimg.org/foq81u0gz/Majdanek.jpg

john welsford
08-16-2017, 07:14 PM
In 1776, or so, we chose to rest upon the horns of this dilemma.

If one advocates for speaking one's mind, one must also advocate for others speaking theirs.


Once the right is secured, those with evil intent game that right, and demagogue their way into power.


It will be ever thus until we recognize, as other Nations have, that a free society can not condone the ruin of that society and remain free.




As with any freedom, "freedom of speech" should be used in a responsible manner.

John Welsford

jack grebe
08-16-2017, 07:39 PM
It's not a theology. As I have read the consistency of your posts over time, I rarely see an in depth clarification of the points you want to make, just simple statements with no real follow up to clarify and improve understanding of your position. Just posts that seem to fit very well into a narrow focus of being charlie opposite. Lets hear a well thought out line of statements showing what you really think.

For starters unpack this statement of yours:

Those people carrying the swastika flag through Charlottesville are aligning themselves with the holocaust and all that Hitler stood and fought for Jack, and your commentary......?



.......more that shameful....... complicit acceptance........would you go to war to defend your country against Hitler's army?

Is this merely a pitiful example of your propensity for bad communication? That you are a poor communicator I'm sure of, but there is more to it for you I suspect. What that is i can't say as false assumptions pave the way to prejudice!

I am beginning to think your presence on this forum is that of a troll. If I don't see any evidence from your postings proving me wrong you will be the first on my ignore list......not that it would bother you in the slightest.


https://s19.postimg.org/foq81u0gz/Majdanek.jpg

I guess being from Australia you are not up on U.S. laws and Constitution.......

The Constitution of the United States gives all Americans the Right to speak freely.
If someone else doesn't like what they have to say, too bad. I will not condone any
Infringement on those rights. Should the Constitution be amended, then I would
abide by the amendment.


We all listen daily to stupid sh!t we don't agree with, but the Constitution is what
Our system is based on, it even has a built in way of changing/amending it so as
to be flexible with changing times and Ridgid enough so as not to be changed on
a whim..... When the time comes to change things, they will change. For now however,
I will continue my free speech and uphold it for all whether I like their message or not.
When we start to pick and choose whos rights we support, we lose them.....

johnw
08-16-2017, 07:45 PM
https://youtu.be/5sp3dIyNA2A

oznabrag
08-16-2017, 07:46 PM
I guess being from Australia you are not up on U.S. laws and Constitution.......

The Constitution of the United States gives all Americans the Right to speak freely.
If someone else doesn't like what they have to say, too bad. ...

Everything about this is wrong.

The US Constitution gives people the right to be free of GOVERNMENT OPPRESSION when they speak freely.

LeeG
08-16-2017, 07:55 PM
Hallam, you are asking too much of Jack.

Canoez
08-16-2017, 07:58 PM
I guess being from Australia you are not up on U.S. laws and Constitution.......

The Constitution of the United States gives all Americans the Right to speak freely.
If someone else doesn't like what they have to say, too bad. I will not condone any
Infringement on those rights. Should the Constitution be amended, then I would
abide by the amendment.


We all listen daily to stupid sh!t we don't agree with, but the Constitution is what
Our system is based on, it even has a built in way of changing/amending it so as
to be flexible with changing times and Ridgid enough so as not to be changed on
a whim..... When the time comes to change things, they will change. For now however,
I will continue my free speech and uphold it for all whether I like their message or not.
When we start to pick and choose whos rights we support, we lose them.....

Well now.

A little education. With rights come responsibilities.

No right is "absolute". These rights are tempered by the law - even Antonin Scalia acknowledged that the Second Amendment was not absolute and without limitations. The same is true of the First Amendment as well.

mdh
08-16-2017, 07:58 PM
Everything about this is wrong.

The US Constitution gives people the right to be free of GOVERNMENT OPPRESSION when they speak freely.

So, if you don't like someone's speech, what can you do about it.

Canoez
08-16-2017, 07:59 PM
As with any freedom, "freedom of speech" should be used in a responsible manner.

John Welsford

Aye! I'll stand you a round for that truth!

jack grebe
08-16-2017, 08:13 PM
Well now.

A little education. With rights come responsibilities.

No right is "absolute". These rights are tempered by the law - even Antonin Scalia acknowledged that the Second Amendment was not absolute and without limitations. The same is true of the First Amendment as well.

Then make arrests........

Canoez
08-16-2017, 08:19 PM
Then make arrests........

Let me make you a suggestion if you think you can say anything you like without repercussion under the 1st Amendent.

1. ) Drive to Washington, D.C.
2. ) Find the nearest Secret Service Agent.
3. ) Tell the Agent how you propose to end the life of the current occupant of the White House.

Tell me how you fare.

Wait.

Have your lawyer tell me how you fare.

jack grebe
08-16-2017, 08:20 PM
So, if you don't like someone's speech, what can you do about it.

You have the right to speak also, but you don't have the right to prevent theirs......

An intelligent person would not show up and be confrontational as this just
adds to the publicly they seek..... How much of this episode would have
happened if no counter protesters and media showed up?????


The protesters we're played by the very people they opposed.

Canoez
08-17-2017, 07:50 AM
An intelligent person would not show up and be confrontational as this just
adds to the publicly they seek..... How much of this episode would have
happened if no counter protesters and media showed up?????


An intelligent person would not be a member of the Nazi party, nor would they be a member of the KKK. An intelligent person knows that these two organizations feed off silence. An intelligent person realizes that failure to oppose these organizations is defacto support of these organizations.

It appears that we have some supporters among our ranks as they would advocate the tacit support of the Nazis and KKK by silence.

Never again.

"We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim."

- Elie Wiesel

AlanMc
08-17-2017, 08:11 AM
Allan Mac, Jack, familiar with the phrase ''fellow traveller"?

"a person who is not a member of a particular group or political party (especially the Communist Party), but who sympathizes with the group's aims and policies."

Especially the .. party. In this case Nazi.


must be nice to sit behind that computer screen and call me a nazi sympathizer.

mmd
08-17-2017, 08:50 AM
He didn't, Allan. He asked you if you knew the term 'fellow-traveller'. If you think that is a reflection of you, then use that mirror to self-evaluate whether your language here in the Bilge casts unwarranted aspersions on others here. Everything can be turned into a learning moment, right?

Osborne Russell
08-17-2017, 08:56 AM
must be nice to sit behind that computer screen and call me a nazi sympathizer.

It's Trump who obliges you to deny it.

AlanMc
08-17-2017, 09:09 AM
He didn't, Allan. He asked you if you knew the term 'fellow-traveller'. If you think that is a reflection of you, then use that mirror to self-evaluate whether your language here in the Bilge casts unwarranted aspersions on others here. Everything can be turned into a learning moment, right?


you're really going to play dumb on his statement? come on.

mmd
08-17-2017, 09:16 AM
I am not dumb, Alan; I can speak quite clearly (albeit with a fine Bluenoser accent) and occasionally, loudly. How about you? Are you dumb?

jack grebe
08-17-2017, 09:24 AM
I am not dumb, Alan; I can speak quite clearly (albeit with a fine Bluenoser accent) and occasionally, loudly. How about you? Are you dumb?

And you asked about me goading........ If he gets upset at this point, do you take
responsibility for his anger? Of course not, it is his choice to continue or exit.

oznabrag
08-17-2017, 09:25 AM
Seems like the number of vocal, right-wing wackos has spiked around here the past couple of months.


There's one thread running right now where several of my ignorees have posted back to back to back.

It makes for a much more enjoyable read.

AlanMc
08-17-2017, 09:27 AM
I am not dumb, Alan; I can speak quite clearly (albeit with a fine Bluenoser accent) and occasionally, loudly. How about you? Are you dumb?



as dumb as they come.

oznabrag
08-17-2017, 09:31 AM
must be nice to sit behind that computer screen and call me a nazi sympathizer.

How would he know?

amish rob
08-17-2017, 09:32 AM
Seems like the number of vocal, right-wing wackos has spiked around here the past couple of months.


There's one thread running right now where several of my ignorees have posted back to back to back.

It makes for a much more enjoyable read.

Here's the point I've been trying to make: Extreme "Right Wing" views are fine. Opinions are great. Share them, spew them, however they get out. Usually they make me giggle. :)

But Nazis aren't opinions. Those are monsters who tried to destroy the world. They almost succeeded last time because people were complacent.

My favorite WWII vet is my mom's German friend. He has a very, very intolerant view of Nazis. I think people kicking in your door and machine gunning your family will do that.

Peace,
Robert

mmd
08-17-2017, 09:33 AM
Jack, you bet. I am a responsibly type of guy.

Alan, obviously you make up for your disability by letting your fingers do the walking.

amish rob
08-17-2017, 09:35 AM
Jack, you bet. I am a responsibly type of guy.

Alan, obviously you make up for your disability by letting your fingers do the walking.

You know, they call them fingers, but I've never seen them fing. Oh, wait. There they go...

Peace,
Robert

oznabrag
08-17-2017, 09:39 AM
Here's the point I've been trying to make: Extreme "Right Wing" views are fine. Opinions are great. Share them, spew them, however they get out. Usually they make me giggle. :)

But Nazis aren't opinions. Those are monsters who tried to destroy the world. They almost succeeded last time because people were complacent.

My favorite WWII vet is my mom's German friend. He has a very, very intolerant view of Nazis. I think people kicking in your door and machine gunning your family will do that.

Peace,
Robert

Sounds VERY effective!

jack grebe
08-17-2017, 09:42 AM
Jack, you bet. I am a responsibly type of guy.

Alan, obviously you make up for your disability by letting your fingers do the walking.

So in his anger he assualts someone, are you going to jail?

amish rob
08-17-2017, 09:51 AM
Sounds VERY effective!

He was in the barn. They found him and conscripted him at gunpoint. In the fall of 1943. He escaped, was captured by British soldiers, and ended up here, in the USA in 1949, somehow.

He is one of the richest dudes I know, and he still brown bags his lunch. He has reflected several times, over meals, the "food" they ate, both before and after his brief stint in the army.
He has rarely spoken of the things he saw, and never of what he did.
He is adamantly clear about his absolute hatred for Nazis.

Peace,
Robert

P.S. My great uncle who got shot up by Nazis don't like them either.

mmd
08-17-2017, 10:14 AM
Keep squirming, Jack. You might yet slip away from the glaring light of day.

Osborne Russell
08-17-2017, 10:35 AM
Here's the point I've been trying to make: Extreme "Right Wing" views are fine. Opinions are great. Share them, spew them, however they get out. Usually they make me giggle. :)

But Nazis aren't opinions. Those are monsters who tried to destroy the world. They almost succeeded last time because people were complacent.

My favorite WWII vet is my mom's German friend. He has a very, very intolerant view of Nazis. I think people kicking in your door and machine gunning your family will do that.

Peace,
Robert

Bingo !

amish rob
08-17-2017, 10:46 AM
Bingo !
Thank you.

I usually try to remain as frivolous as life itself, but some things are deadly serious. I can abide much, and I endeavor to abide more daily, because we are all people, eh, and as different as we are the same?

I cannot abide absolutist killers. Make no bones, people. The Nazis, should they gain any kind of foothold, would round up more than few among us for the camps.

There is no grey area with Nazis.

With republicans and democarats, you still have the common theme of being fellow citizens. The parties fight like family, but should also unite like family. Think, if you will, to a September some dozen plus years ago. Remember the tenor of the country then?
And this September will see this country on the brink of a civil war, it seems...

The Nazis are a party, and they'll kill any democrat or republican that doesn't fit into the neat little box. That's what they do.

The Nazis are an enemy of this country. So are the Confederates, for that matter. Shoot, they even had their own money, and president.

Peace,
Robert

Osborne Russell
08-17-2017, 12:09 PM
Peace isn't the default state. Peace is an achievement to be defended.

Loving peace doesn't require pacifism; and, pacifists defend peace in their way. Very important. Even pacifists aren't waiting for peace. They fight, in their way, to bring it about, and keep it going. The best of them are the bravest of the brave.

Where's their statue?

oznabrag
08-17-2017, 12:22 PM
Peace isn't the default state. Peace is an achievement to be defended.

Loving peace doesn't require pacifism; and, pacifists defend peace in their way. Very important. Even pacifists aren't waiting for peace. They fight, in their way, to bring it about, and keep it going. The best of them are the bravest of the brave.

Where's their statue?

https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-o/0f/38/33/f6/beautiful-day-to-see.jpg

mmd
08-17-2017, 12:27 PM
Well, there is this one in Massachusetts:

http://www.peaceabbey.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Gandhiforshareholders.jpg


(Edit to add: Oz, you look rather silly answering your own questions. Just sayin'...

oznabrag
08-17-2017, 12:34 PM
Well, there is this one in Massachusetts:

http://www.peaceabbey.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Gandhiforshareholders.jpg


(Edit to add: Oz, you look rather silly answering your own questions. Just sayin'...

I am mystified.

AlanMc
08-17-2017, 12:36 PM
Well, there is this one in Massachusetts:

http://www.peaceabbey.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Gandhiforshareholders.jpg


(Edit to add: Oz, you look rather silly answering your own questions. Just sayin'...


he carries that stick to beat the crap out of nazis

mdh
08-17-2017, 12:43 PM
he carries that stick to beat the crap out of nazis

Ahh, a sense of humor.

mmd
08-17-2017, 12:51 PM
Not much, but probably amusing to some...

Hallam
08-17-2017, 06:51 PM
You have the right to speak also, but you don't have the right to prevent theirs......

An intelligent person would not show up and be confrontational as this just
adds to the publicly they seek..... How much of this episode would have
happened if no counter protesters and media showed up?????


The protesters we're played by the very people they opposed.

If you want to defend the First Amendment, an intelligent person would not march with Nazis to do so.
An intelligent person would go out of their way to denounce the Nazi and KKK in every statement referring to the march in Charlottesville.

mdh
08-17-2017, 08:15 PM
If you want to defend the First Amendment, an intelligent person would not march with Nazis to do so.
An intelligent person would go out of their way to denounce the Nazi and KKK in every statement referring to the march in Charlottesville.

You didn't denounce nazis and the kkk when you made your statement referring to them in Charlottesville, but i denounce nazis and the kkk.

Hallam
08-17-2017, 09:38 PM
You didn't denounce nazis and the kkk when you made your statement referring to them in Charlottesville, but i denounce nazis and the kkk.

Ok, thanks for clearly stating your viewpoint regarding nazis and the KKK.