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themrbruceguy
07-31-2017, 01:39 PM
Hi everyone! My name is Jake Bruce, I live in the Kansas City area, and I'm starting to plan out my cedar strip canoe build! Super excited. I have many basic woodworking tools and knowledge, so I'm not very intimidated with the process. Especially considering the amount of information there is regarding canoe / wooden boat building. However, I do have a couple questions starting off that I would like some help with:



Are there any active WoodenBoat members in the Kansas City area? Maybe Wichita, Omaha, Lincoln, St Louis, Oklahoma City, etc... It would be fun to connect with some folks in the Midwest. Especially if we are just miles down the road... you never know.
I have space to build a 15-16 ft canoe. I'm leaning towards the a.) Bob's Special 15', b.) Prospector Ranger 15', and c.) Freedom 15'. Does anybody have knowledge of these canoes and pros/cons they'd like to share?
Current Biggest Issue: obtaining lumber! I am calling local sawmills / lumberyards for Western Redcedar lumber. I hear this is the material of choice for many builders and I love the aesthetics of it. But I'm having one heck of a time locating stock that I can buy. Have any of you guys purchased this material from a Midwestern supplier for your build? I'm looking for A+ grade or Clear lumber to build with. I don't mind driving hundreds of miles to pick it up, as I'm trying to avoid paying for freight shipping.
Difference in the decking/siding Western Redcedar, and the A+/Clear grade lumber...?


That's it for now. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions in the future though :)
I'm sorry if these questions have already been thoroughly answered in previous threads, but I was unable to find them.. Feel free to reply with links to appropriate threads!

Thank you!
~ Jake

snaildrake
07-31-2017, 04:34 PM
Hey there Jake-
Welcome to the forum and boatbuilding. Re lumber, while I don't live in your area or have specific supplier suggestions, I have been living in the interior US (New Mexico) and scouring the earth for decent materials for years. And working around very low quality Western Red Cedar with my skin-on-frame Whitehall, a design less demanding of clear stuff than strip building. I just bought the best WRC I could find for a new project, some 2x6x12' planks I will be resawing once they're dried. I'm writing this to discourage most people from doing what I have to do if they can.

Observations:
- Forget Home Despot and Lowe's, period. And dogeared cedar fencing slats of any kind should never go into a boat. Common pine would be better, but don't do that either.
- If you can get clear WRC near you, just swallow hard and buy it, unless you love driving or have relatives someplace recommended like Chicago. The economics will just work out better. Then you can spend time boatbuilding instead of driving. I wish I could do this.
- #2 WRC as sold in lumber yards for decks and fencing is full of throwaway sap wood and knots plus nasty runout. And it's usually green, so you get to air dry it yourself. If you are prepared to spend many hours culling, planning and ripping, and scarfing, you can end up with usable stock. I made stringers and gunwales from 1x8"x12' #2 stock, with maybe 25% waste. But I should have culled more.
- With the local hunt, hardwood suppliers are unlikely, but millwork vendors might have it, esp. if there happens to be some light manufacturing around, like say wood gates or doors. I found my first stuff first through my hardwood supplier reselling fence-grade materials from their neighbor, a wholesaler. This year I did much better was a chance check with a small local building supply that brought in 1x and 2x for decks and fences but knew enough to pick the right mill. The manager pointed me toward the 2x which was old growth and less sapwood, and let me cull the stack heavily to pick the 8 boards that I can make work.

Good luck, happy hunting. Dan

DeniseO30
07-31-2017, 04:36 PM
Welcome aboard Jake! I'm going to burst your bubble don't cry LOL You do not need to search high and low for long length clear WRC unless your heart is set on that. if however you are familiar the way hardwood flooring is laid you understand how you can strip your canoe with random length strips. Now you can track down Cedar deck boards Cedar framing Lumber and rip and saw it to your heart's content! Redwood and bassword also spruce are good choices also, but in all cases you have to track it down!

windwalker3014
07-31-2017, 10:01 PM
Jake,
I can't help you with the cedar but I just moved to Fort Leavenworth from San Diego in May with my crabbing skiff in tow. Sailed for the first time last weekend on Smithville Lake - beautiful lake. In what part of KC are you?
https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18033878_10155017997731233_7407151245628334697_n.j pg?oh=f9abfbb5182bab5a1a33504789d3b9f8&oe=59F5EC35
-Chris

Sailor
08-01-2017, 12:16 AM
I know Bear Mountain Boats used to sell kits of strips all ready to go. Not sure if they still do. Also not sure if they ship south of the border to the US. They're based in Ontario, Peterborough I think. I'm pretty sure my dad and brother picked theirs up there. I have a wood seller here that deals in all sorts of specialty wood and I just purchased 3 planks 1 inch thick and about 8 inches wide. Ripped them and routed the bead and coves into them myself. Good luck finding it. Planing WRC is mesmerizing. Well worth paying a few bananas more for WRC in my mind. But it's just a core for the fibreglass anyway so whatever you use should be fine. WRC is the gold standard for canoe building though. It's light and looks great finished bright.

MN Dave
08-01-2017, 01:57 AM
Welcome aboard Jake! I'm going to burst your bubble don't cry LOL You do not need to search high and low for long length clear WRC unless your heart is set on that. if however you are familiar the way hardwood flooring is laid you understand how you can strip your canoe with random length strips. Now you can track down Cedar deck boards Cedar framing Lumber and rip and saw it to your heart's content! Redwood and bassword also spruce are good choices also, but in all cases you have to track it down!
To add to this suggestion, look through the 2x6 through 2x12 at Menards. You might have to pick through at a few stores to find a recently opened pallet and avoid the reject piles. You can usually find larger clear pieces between the knots in the longer, wider thick planks. For the price of the clear stuff you can get a fair amount of decent material and any left over knotty '2x4s' will be essentially free. Last time I needed clear 1x2 pine strips, select 1x4s were three times the price of the 2x8 that I bought. I ripped the small stuff that I needed from the clear side and still have decent a left over 2x4.

You want quarter sawn to rift sawn strips. You can also rip to 1 1/2 x 3/4 so you can turn the wood 90 degrees and rip the strips from those to get the grain orientation you need. If you rip a quarter sawn 1x10 into 3/16-1/4 in strips, they will be flat sawn, which is harder to finish. If the grain orientation in a 2x8 is favorable, rip the 1/4 in strips to 1 1/2 and rip those to 3/4" The thin strips go quickly. I would also recommend a narrow kerf Diablo blade. Even a 7 1/4 on a 10" table saw will do the job. The thin blades are quieter, waste less wood and are easier on the motor.

capehorn3
08-01-2017, 06:27 AM
Look here.

http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Building/index.cgi/page/1/md/read/id/239875/sbj/material-local-lumber-and-material-sources/

MN Dave
08-01-2017, 11:38 AM
Look here.

http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Building/index.cgi/page/1/md/read/id/239875/sbj/material-local-lumber-and-material-sources/

Excellent. On that list there is a link to woodfinder:
It returned this, http://woodfinder.com/listings/mark-frieden-hardwoods in Pomona KS, not far from KC, while looking for http://www.woodmastersupply.com/ near me in Minnesota.

themrbruceguy
08-01-2017, 09:48 PM
Thank you all for your feedback :) It is very much appreciated.

I have started calling around many different WRC suppliers that I have found primarily by Googling. Some suppliers have minimum order quantities, some only carry select knotty construction grade, but there have been a few suppliers that stock clear, vertical grain WRC. So I started an Excel spreadsheet tracking $/board foot so I can make the best decision on who to purchase from. In response to DeniseO30, I am pretty well dead-set on WRC. If it is going to cost me the price of ordering strips ($700-800), then I will start digging through Home Depot & Menards. But I am okay with spending $500-$600 on lumber alone to build a nice canoe out of WRC. Not to say that canoes built using different material aren't nice... It's just what I'd like to pursue :)

I have some leads to follow up with tomorrow and hopefully I can find someone within the Midwest who will sell me this lumber. It'd be so nice to avoid the $150 (minimum) freight charge from far-away lumber yards.

DeniseO30
08-01-2017, 10:26 PM
It is understandable, it is your first build I felt the same way on the first couple. But to ease the pain of not using a long strip of cedar is what will you do when one of those long strips breaks accidentally? You won't throw it away you'll make a little scarf joint and glue it back in on the form, and continue with more strips!
Oh, just a suggestion, make the starter or highlight strip straight, don't start with the gunnel curved to the stem top. I'll post a photo and show you what I'm talking about.

epoxyboy
08-02-2017, 01:24 AM
Chesapeake Light Craft sell strips
http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boat-building-supplies-epoxy-fiberglass-plywood/marine-plywood-cedar-strips/

Pete

DeniseO30
08-02-2017, 10:32 AM
To add to this suggestion, look through the 2x6 through 2x12 at Menards. You might have to pick through at a few stores to find a recently opened pallet and avoid the reject piles. You can usually find larger clear pieces between the knots in the longer, wider thick planks. For the price of the clear stuff you can get a fair amount of decent material and any left over knotty '2x4s' will be essentially free. Last time I needed clear 1x2 pine strips, select 1x4s were three times the price of the 2x8 that I bought. I ripped the small stuff that I needed from the clear side and still have decent a left over 2x4.

You want quarter sawn to rift sawn strips. You can also rip to 1 1/2 x 3/4 so you can turn the wood 90 degrees and rip the strips from those to get the grain orientation you need. If you rip a quarter sawn 1x10 into 3/16-1/4 in strips, they will be flat sawn, which is harder to finish. If the grain orientation in a 2x8 is favorable, rip the 1/4 in strips to 1 1/2 and rip those to 3/4" The thin strips go quickly. I would also recommend a narrow kerf Diablo blade. Even a 7 1/4 on a 10" table saw will do the job. The thin blades are quieter, waste less wood and are easier on the motor.

I've always taken a willing store person aside and explained what I'm seeking/doing and they will help! I always offer a tip, many refuse but I also I go out of my way to tell a manager how happy I am with the person helping.

themrbruceguy
08-02-2017, 10:58 AM
That's actually a great tip Denise! I may give that a shot.

Also, any luck on finding that picture you referred to in your previous response?

Thanks for all of the help :)

DeniseO30
08-02-2017, 11:54 AM
I was angry I deleted everything off Photobucket when they stopped third party posts, I'll scan and save them to cloud for safe keeping lol

DeniseO30
08-02-2017, 03:50 PM
This was the 17.5 ft redbird we built. You can see the random strip joins. and the strips "down" from the high light strip. (really up but we build em upside down) Doing it this way (as many find out after fighting with strip bending problems) the bends aren't severe and much easier to work at the stem.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/021030733412/media/93266213723/medium/1501706926/enhance

DeniseO30
08-02-2017, 03:57 PM
It was a "stemless" build
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/021030733412/media/93266048802/medium/1501703742/enhance

DeniseO30
08-02-2017, 04:03 PM
my much loved prospector but lost to sunlight and mold in my daughter's backyard on Signal Mtn TN
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/021030733412/media/93165880108/medium/1498792828/enhance
1912 Old town HW on the left. beamy girl on the cen.. err right! and, you can't see the ends of the random length strips that most of our strip builds were. that was a camp chair I was carrying
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/021030733412/media/93165879991/medium/1498792823/enhance

JimConlin
08-02-2017, 08:38 PM
The Eastern white cedars are also excellent strip canoe materials. Ask for Northern white cedar or Atlantic white cedar (aka juniper).
If you're willing to accept a little more weight, Eastern white pine (pinus strobus) is great for the purpose.

themrbruceguy
08-09-2017, 05:12 PM
Just an update everybody: after making a list of 40+ lumber yards and sawmills within the Midwestern region, I found a mom & pop decking/siding company 50 miles away who had Western Red Cedar in stock! How lucky!?

And better yet, these were 1/2" to 3/8" thick boards that were scraps from a historic building rebuild, so the owner sold them to me for $3.50/BF! These had been stored in his garage/hanger on his farm waiting for someone to buy them. I walked away with 15 boards (all 5.5" wide) ranging from 16 - 20ft in length for $210. I got 61BF total, so hopefully that's enough for my 15' Ranger build. I am super satisfied with the quality of wood (clear, vertical grain), the proximity to Kansas City, and his willingness to let me be picky with the boards :) Couldn't have been luckier finding this northwestern species in Kansas haha!

Couple pictures from today: (hopefully they show up)


The barn it came out of.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/U-aKMoD8yjdl8KNTFGHZx_TRC0pTejDTeitZ0rLvMoVg6qTFOIJh VoApyhEpxbJExQglyPPHW8C5t3suOAWmwKUQTiFljI_xL7PWFC QgmPxyiIFC7uSrkYwgTZi9-D3NDLBWuEaEi5xnljP8ZdmBb_IyoqtKJVUd2pR99mzwHX6OSZS UrKOFAFF6w2t1Uq9YzjlxIFzfV5OWh4PdS-eAyDOogHIDYyz0WPCKnDuV0Opwqs8K0rqMzd_N3OwTehpdn0rQ 8ojnZlX3EezhOSe9Q_niL2WtZvJBB1ymtNWtjOu9Zm_Y1lWwx_ qDMub9kw9HTl_RSBnvAF6elRg9EXwzIsCgVJuuB5Jx-nuhr-0K4KtXJ3tsLu77g_GTSzts9J41jWwlABSw_DOl5wmbofANekL3 9Ai2SS-oNWynOm1aSJ9mx9P5iiBaQUyMiVQuhac5QQ1JCJAuw-hWLbEaLyStvKKS9i869_STRMRiOLd5_pFJpPWJ1ktGsc3n0Zko QoEi-r_mwS_rWIrgxat0mbuG-CUdoiwK3bWDxmdVaqTDtllgpuKpKm-Di0EW_ID6kK4BxgJ-QCnwGyFCad_OxsQP9tfpaXRhPnTtFbdM6uD7akFxKg=w760-h427-no?.jpg


Me parked at work. Used the ladder as a stiffiner since the boards were so thin. Worked really well :)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sU8L9GGa87Nupv5uc3053ADSirAMxSWVn5TI4Ns9sD-hjCb9npx8-AfXT8KnE1lb0421L4RAXz9xwIoBdbXoPs1v-yrvY_dFRnUKPNzF2rehQORIreuS90CJ7SIwcLHPG2r09Yfn_4x xrupkLbBjI3CvYAN6sO9w3J9C2Qg8dKfvpneV-kKVYR0qSVAkYehvbVaaIG_gTd-cQ8jNb3DDMjYvyFrqRakbNqVp6hI7KxMU0OnsrIsWysJ-Nj7hGk2b2Akm_F0A-QiVS30ep31gvbko8EXWGI2TrPvP4yiE_T5B2ZXRMZhCJzP_9qo nJnXJMpwLgKxVbLvnpmHSg-eR9vwZWgDGQaTQfEH4ih2gOGwmjWtSauOfrT3ZVdS3Uh0u2trz tBUHRS8hHFQjcsE61L2sQZFm55or2v-b2pg1FjPq3MVzAqX9ExQ2jnRFUodsXKK-9WeqCQmuzEtMQYJwYhv8LgfoIqdkZTall98MaJ2xNs5hMGDUwX 7--GlHu-gU6e42R5-hoa3ZYlcxG_8-YlS_jxs2EFmsNbRexWKMqzmlkpO7j_PkkeAdxY--xGh6sFTg1azLXQ0c4MZsUaXR0chXdVRteQvISjtRzQsLgflMyw =w760-h427-no?.jpg


Just in case anybody finds this thread looking for wood, the source I used was "Wood Haven Inc." located in Perry, KS. Would highly recommend.

~ Jake