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JesterGrin
06-30-2017, 02:18 PM
I am in the process of building a Spira International VERACRUZ Panga and decided on Duckworks DWX epoxy due to the extended working time it gives with the very hot and at times humid weather here in South TEXAS.

I plan to get a 1.5 Gallon Kit to start with the build and get the Slow Hardener that goes along with it and add 1 QT of Fast Hardener for the Lap Frame glue ups. Is this a good plan or just run with the Slow Hardener the whole way through?

And of course the metered pumps as well. :)

Thank You.

David G
06-30-2017, 02:31 PM
I am in the process of building a Spira International VERACRUZ Panga and decided on Duckworks DWX epoxy due to the extended working time it gives with the very hot and at times humid weather here in South TEXAS.

I plan to get a 1.5 Gallon Kit to start with the build and get the Slow Hardener that goes along with it and add 1 QT of Fast Hardener for the Lap Frame glue ups. Is this a good plan or just run with the Slow Hardener the whole way through?

And of course the metered pumps as well. :)

Thank You.

Your best advice will come from Chuck at Duckworks. He's built a few boats with that product in Tejas.

John Perry
06-30-2017, 02:46 PM
Building a 15 foot rowing boat in the UK this winter (see here: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?200900-Yet-another-rowing-boat-design) I mostly used slow hardener but found it useful to have some of the fast hardener available too so that if, say, I were gluing something up and wanted to be sure that I could take off the clamps the next day I would use the fast hardener, otherwise use the slow hardener. But in a warm climate it could be different, maybe you would have no use for fast hardener, others may have a view on that.

One thing I would say is that I would only use a non-blushing resin and looking at the Duckworks page the one you are choosing is claimed to be non-blushing. Also it is almost clear, mixes in a 2:1 ratio and is almost oderless, so it sounds very similar to the resin I have been buying from Reactive Resins here in the UK, and I am happy with that brand.

I can say that with another project some years ago we had terrible problems with amine blush and that was with a very well known brand of epoxy resin.

I prefer to do the mixing by weight using a cheap digital scales. I have heard it sugested that you can use a simple home made scales that has a balance arm with the pivot placed to give the correct mix ratio when it balances. Presumably you need to balance out any difference in the weight of the containers before adding any resin which would make this a bit more complicated than using digital scales with a zero function. Reactive Resins supply a small and quite accurate digital scale which they recommend for use with their resins. I have also used the metering pumps in the past but eventually they do tend to get in a mess and even clog up if you have to leave your project for a while, so I prefer to mix by weight.

DeniseO30
06-30-2017, 04:46 PM
Don't.. do epoxy in the sun or on hot surfaces. when coating .. doing it from warm to cooler is better then doing it in the morning cool to afternoon heat. I've been to TX once.... FLA 3 times.. NEVER again!

JesterGrin
06-30-2017, 07:32 PM
Don't.. do epoxy in the sun or on hot surfaces. when coating .. doing it from warm to cooler is better then doing it in the morning cool to afternoon heat. I've been to TX once.... FLA 3 times.. NEVER again!

Oh do not worry as I plan to plank the hull and lay the fiberglass in the shade so I do not melt lol.

JesterGrin
06-30-2017, 07:35 PM
On another side question about Epoxy as I was informed today is that there is a difference between a glue type of epoxy VS a regular type of epoxy?

Or to say I have been using T-88 Epoxy of which is a structural epoxy and while I was looking at the standard type of Epoxies that would be used to lay the fiberglass to the hull I was informed that it was not designed to be used as a glue?

This was at a Woodcraft store.

David G
06-30-2017, 08:08 PM
There's a lot of dodgy info out there about epoxy. It may be time for you to acquire the 'bible'. Buy the book, or download the free PDF -- http://www.westsystem.com/the-gougeon-brothers-on-boat-construction/

upchurchmr
06-30-2017, 08:18 PM
I use both regular speed hardener (West 507) and fast hardener in Ft. Worth.
As you get use to using the glue and get use to planning each glue job, you will find you do not take so long to complete each task.
Actually, I have absolutely no use for slow hardener, but I have a little experience.

Ignore the idiots from Woodcraft.
You can't tell what they actually know and what they read as advertising copy.
Last time I asked a technical question - they didn't even know what products were available in that product line. Tried to tell me to use wheat flour to add strength to fillets.

The best time to laminate a ply over wood is when it's about 100F for a "normal" hardener.
The epoxy is thin, it wets out great. But you better be ready to work, without delay.
Slow will give you the confidence you need for your first coating.

I would suggest you precoat the wood before laminating - meaning put a coat of epoxy without glass, let it set up beyond tacky, then laminate on the glass. Once you get the precoat on and kicked off, you will not have problems with bubbles coming out of the wood if the temperature goes up.

Just saw Davids post. I agree absolutely. The download is free, but the book is nice to have for quick reference.

wizbang 13
06-30-2017, 10:22 PM
west 507??

David G
07-01-2017, 12:00 AM
west 507??

507 is a hardener that is only sold to the creme de la creme of fabricators. You and I will never get our hands on it. I'm just sorry you had to find out this way. We were hoping to find a way to break it to you easy. <G>

up-c... just a typo? Which hardener did you mean? http://www.westsystem.com/the-105-system/product-selection-guide/

MN Dave
07-01-2017, 12:18 AM
I am in the process of building a Spira International VERACRUZ Panga and decided on Duckworks DWX epoxy due to the extended working time it gives with the very hot and at times humid weather here in South TEXAS.

I plan to get a 1.5 Gallon Kit to start with the build and get the Slow Hardener that goes along with it and add 1 QT of Fast Hardener for the Lap Frame glue ups. Is this a good plan or just run with the Slow Hardener the whole way through?

And of course the metered pumps as well. :)

Thank You.

Yes. it is a good plan.

I have used DWX with slow hardener once to repair/replace some shattered plywood, gunnels and a frame where my Gypsy hit a tree after it blew away last winter. It took a very long time (days) to fully harden. Otherwise it handles and wets out the glass well. This was my first use of DWX. Most resins reach a fully hard cure a lot sooner with slow hardener. The first time I mixed MAS slow, it took far too long (weeks) to harden up. It turns out that some slow hardeners need to be mixed a lot longer than others. If you don't mix MAS slow for 2 minutes, it can remain rubbery for over a week. Since then I always mix slow hardener for a long time since I don't want to repeat that again. Maybe DWX needs more thorough mixing. When we make my daughter's kayak, I will know more about mixing and hardening of DWX.

West is nice too, but the OP asked about DWX.

As for glue or regular epoxy: By regular, I think you mean the low viscosity resin that is good for coating and wetting out fiberglass. For adhesive bonding, a higher viscosity is needed so it will stay where you put it and not run off before you can assemble the parts. There are some higher viscosity resins, but mostly you just add a filler to the thin ones to thicken them. We must like to discuss fillers: Thread 1 (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?4583-Which-Thickner-do-you-prefer) thread 2 (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?176792-Milled-Fibers) thread 3 (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?177717-Best-mix-of-cotton-fibers-and-silica-for-strong-smooth-fillets).

FishoutaFlorida
07-01-2017, 12:33 AM
I plan to get a 1.5 Gallon Kit to start with the build and get the Slow Hardener that goes along with it and add 1 QT of Fast Hardener for the Lap Frame glue ups. Is this a good plan or just run with the Slow Hardener the whole way through?
Thank You.

Greeting Jester,

Just left SAT about 5 months ago, did epoxy on frames and used slow all the way. 80% of wx there is warm and muggy, when its not, have a cup of tea and watch the clowns go by. Not familiar with the product mentioned, but wanted to toss in my 2c.

Enjoy!

JesterGrin
07-01-2017, 03:51 AM
MN Dave you are correct that I asked about DWX Epoxy as that is what Chuck of Duckworks informed me about. But since I am trying to learn and I have not as of yet purchased an Epoxy kit it is not set in stone. :)

Zane Lewis
07-02-2017, 06:17 AM
Hi Jester, is it possible that the guys at the woodcraft store where confusing polyester with epoxy. Polyester resin is what's used for GRP boat construction while Epoxy resin is what's used to glue timber and bond fabrics to timber.
Zane

JesterGrin
07-03-2017, 12:04 AM
Hi Jester, is it possible that the guys at the woodcraft store where confusing polyester with epoxy. Polyester resin is what's used for GRP boat construction while Epoxy resin is what's used to glue timber and bond fabrics to timber.
Zane

Well not in this case as the associate and I were both holding Epoxy.

MN Dave
07-03-2017, 12:00 PM
MN Dave you are correct that I asked about DWX Epoxy as that is what Chuck of Duckworks informed me about. But since I am trying to learn and I have not as of yet purchased an Epoxy kit it is not set in stone. :)
OK, you asked for it.:arg Brand loyalty is a problem here. Criticizing someone's favorite epoxy is almost as bad as arguing about politics in the bilge. Some folks feel that we owe their favorite a huge debt of gratitude.

When I said that slow hardener for most things and some fast was good when you need to save time, that applies across the board. Resin brand is not important.

http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxtest.htm is a good start for an unbiased, if dated survey. It is old, so there are some newer brands that were not included.

For my money, which is in relatively short supply, a low cost blush free system is preferable. If you try to do the math, the packaging sizes and hardener ratios make price comparison difficult. What looks huge due to odd container size and resin to hardener ratios sometimes works out to a fairly small difference. After 18 years doing volunteer work at ASF and UBB the best epoxy in the world is the one that was most recently donated to the non-profit organization. Personally, I think I like Raka, but the jury is still out. In order of preference, I would rank Raka, Progressive and MAS higher than the rest. (I wish I could remember if it was Raka or Progressive that had a nice long work life, then fully hardened quickly, unless it was both of them.) The common brand that I have not tried is System 3 for no reason other than lack of opportunity. Offhand, in chronological order, I recall using Arcon, Union Carbide, MAS, Epiphanes, West, Pro-build, Raka, Progressive, and DWX. The first two disappeared 30-40 years ago. The best thing about West is local retail availability. When I need to fix something today, not ordered online and delivered at least three days from now, I bite the bullet and buy what the local store has in stock.

If you are familiar with any one product line and comfortable with it, I would stick with what you know. Blush is a much smaller problem with some brands, but you can still have a weak bond under unfavorable conditions.

upchurchmr
07-03-2017, 12:22 PM
I'm not sure if it was me who started this thing about which epoxy.

The only reason I gave results and recommendations based on West was that its all I use.
Never meant to say anything about other epoxies.

I also think fast, normal, slow wouldn't matter much between brands.
Although, at work they had a resin which didn't set up for more than 6 hours. Specially bought so they didn't have to train people and plan for a days work.

JesterGrin
07-03-2017, 08:01 PM
OK, you asked for it.:arg Brand loyalty is a problem here. Criticizing someone's favorite epoxy is almost as bad as arguing about politics in the bilge. Some folks feel that we owe their favorite a huge debt of gratitude.

When I said that slow hardener for most things and some fast was good when you need to save time, that applies across the board. Resin brand is not important.

http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxtest.htm is a good start for an unbiased, if dated survey. It is old, so there are some newer brands that were not included.

For my money, which is in relatively short supply, a low cost blush free system is preferable. If you try to do the math, the packaging sizes and hardener ratios make price comparison difficult. What looks huge due to odd container size and resin to hardener ratios sometimes works out to a fairly small difference. After 18 years doing volunteer work at ASF and UBB the best epoxy in the world is the one that was most recently donated to the non-profit organization. Personally, I think I like Raka, but the jury is still out. In order of preference, I would rank Raka, Progressive and MAS higher than the rest. (I wish I could remember if it was Raka or Progressive that had a nice long work life, then fully hardened quickly, unless it was both of them.) The common brand that I have not tried is System 3 for no reason other than lack of opportunity. Offhand, in chronological order, I recall using Arcon, Union Carbide, MAS, Epiphanes, West, Pro-build, Raka, Progressive, and DWX. The first two disappeared 30-40 years ago. The best thing about West is local retail availability. When I need to fix something today, not ordered online and delivered at least three days from now, I bite the bullet and buy what the local store has in stock.

If you are familiar with any one product line and comfortable with it, I would stick with what you know. Blush is a much smaller problem with some brands, but you can still have a weak bond under unfavorable conditions.


Ok I apologize if I in someway have brought up a sore spot here on the forum.

upchurchmr
07-03-2017, 09:15 PM
Jester,

You should not apologize.
People here know not to get too sensitive.
At least after participating for a little while.
You just asked a question.

The best thing here is when people offer things they actually know. Without fear of delicate feelings. IMHO.

JesterGrin
07-03-2017, 09:37 PM
Jester,

You should not apologize.
People here know not to get too sensitive.
At least after participating for a little while.
You just asked a question.

The best thing here is when people offer things they actually know. Without fear of delicate feelings. IMHO.



Thank You as I ask questions due to the fact I do not know not to stir the pot if possible as we have enough thorns in our day to day lives as it is.

MN Dave
07-04-2017, 01:21 AM
Ok I apologize if I in someway have brought up a sore spot here on the forum.
I just intended to poke a little fun at the way some people get about their favorite epoxies. It was both a warning that some critical responses are to be expected and a suggestion not to jump too hard on the thread with critical responses.

You asked a legitimate question. DWX is fairly new, and I would like to see some good information about it. I saw one other comment about the cure a while ago, and I hope someone else has more information to follow up on that aspect.

Mike may have been the first to mention West by name, but I wouldn't characterize him as anything but one of the more level headed members. Some of the best information comes from some of the most adamant defenders of their favorite brands, so take Mike's advice, and see how it plays out.

JesterGrin
07-04-2017, 02:13 AM
Thank You MN Dave . One good aspect of being new to stuff is that nothing is set in stone. :).

For one it was suggested to me by a designer and watching some You tubey stuff and I think a couple of threads on this very forum to use PL Premium Quick Grab. So I did try it on 1 frame and to be honest I did not like it all that much. For one I think it was simply mental in that I tend to trust epoxy first for such things. ( there you go again being set in stone lol.) But I gave it a try and while it is easy to use since there is no mixing ( Yes there is indeed epoxy in a tube now as well with no mixing but I think it is $21.00 each and PL Premium is $7.50 each) and it is pretty thick it is also pretty rough or to say grainy. But it does dry hard enough to sand and grind down but again the surface is rough so if you wish to have a smoother surface and or to feather out the edges that one still needs to either sand it or grind it below flush and put some thickened epoxy or fairing compound on it to enable one to smooth and feather it out. So it very well is cheaper but the labor involved makes it a wash or if one counts curing time of the epoxy then the length it will take for the fairing epoxy to dry enough to work will add that much more time than starting with epoxy to start with. So to each there own but I do believe that for certain aspects it will probably work wonderfully.

On another note I also do not feel that the PL Premium has the same glue strength as epoxy. I did try a little test by simply using some PL Premium and coating a piece of 2 x 6 and taking a small piece of 2 x 4 and with hand pressure pushing them together and moving them around a bit to even out and spread the PL Premium before letting it dry for 24 hours then put it in a vice and smacked it with a small sledge. (2LB) And broke off a piece of the 2 x 4 but then knocked the rest of the 2 x 4 off of the 2 x 6 and it was the glue that came off of the 2 x 6 clean.