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WX
06-13-2017, 11:10 PM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-14/london-major-fire-engulfs-24-storey-apartment-building/8617158


More than 200 firefighters have been called to fight a giant blaze in a high-rise tower block in West London.
The 27-storey Grenfell Tower on the Lancaster West Estate in North Kensington caught fire around midnight local time.
The London Fire Brigade said it sent 40 fire engines at the scene of the fire and said all of the building, from the second floor upwards, was ablaze.
By dawn the flames appeared to have begun to die down but fires were still burning inside.
More than 200 people live in the tower, but it was not clear how many people were inside.

Jim Bow
06-13-2017, 11:14 PM
Shocking. How did it spread so fast? Sprinkler system??

Jim Bow
06-14-2017, 12:09 AM
Found some background info. Problems with wiring in 2013

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

skuthorp
06-14-2017, 12:10 AM
This one will be a terrible fire. 1.00am on a weekday. Most will likely have been home.

Read Jim's link.

PeterSibley
06-14-2017, 12:12 AM
http://static.progressivemediagroup.com/uploads/imagelibrary/Fire%20safety%20on%20the%20high-rise%20top%20image.jpg


http://www.thedailystar.net/sites/default/files/styles/very_big_1/public/feature/images/london-firewb.jpg?itok=9auC2Ngr

skuthorp
06-14-2017, 12:28 AM
Reports here say they are worried it will come down.

Phillip Allen
06-14-2017, 12:39 AM
Reports here say they are worried it will come down.

it's a possibility if the steel support gets hot enough... and it looks like it already is hot enough

Sky Blue
06-14-2017, 12:40 AM
Sadiq Khan now has his moment. Will he seize it or be consumed by it?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
06-14-2017, 01:19 AM
Found some background info. Problems with wiring in 2013

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

That's one scary report.
Prescient.

Wet Feet
06-14-2017, 02:19 AM
Horrific .

There will be a horrendous number of dead .

There was no way out for those poor people.

skuthorp
06-14-2017, 02:19 AM
I get flashbacks to 9/11.

Here we had a close shave when cheap low rated aluminium skinned foam cladding on a building caught fire. Like this one the fire just shot up the side of the building. Reports of burnt cladding coming down through the smoke. There are an unknown number of buildings here clad with this material which imitates a much more expensive fire proof material. Evidently it's hard to tell them apart without the packing labels. Arguments now here are centred on who will pay to have the dodgy material replaced. I think it is actually illegal to either import or to use this stuff.

Wet Feet
06-14-2017, 02:22 AM
I get flashbacks to 9/11.

Here we had a close shave when cheap low rated aluminium skinned foam cladding on a building caught fire. Like this one the fire just shot up the side of the building. Reports of burnt cladding coming down through the smoke. There are an unknown number of buildings here clad with this material which imitates a much more expensive fire proof material. Evidently it's hard to tell them apart without the packing labels. Arguments now here are centred on who will pay to have the dodgy material replaced. I think it is actually illegal to either import or to use this stuff.

Yes , cheap imitations look very similar.
Building inspectors required . Test burn random samples perhaps ???.

skuthorp
06-14-2017, 02:42 AM
The building has recently been renovated, new cladding. Resident said it felt like plastic.

Is someone on the plane to Argentina as we speak?

Phillip Allen
06-14-2017, 03:05 AM
prayers for the people of that building...

skuthorp
06-14-2017, 03:27 AM
It seems from the live feed the fire services have no way of fighting the fire on the top 12 or so floors.
It's a situation where bush fire fighting aircraft might have been useful.

isla
06-14-2017, 03:30 AM
More from the BBC..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40270582

Condolences to all involved.

genglandoh
06-14-2017, 05:06 AM
Found some background info. Problems with wiring in 2013

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

From your link.
Nov 20 2016 - KCTMO – Playing with fire!
It is our conviction that a serious fire in a tower block or similar high density residential property is the most likely reason that those who wield power at the KCTMO will be found out and brought to justice! The Grenfell Action Group believe that the KCTMO narrowly averted a major fire disaster at Grenfell Tower in 2013 when residents experienced a period of terrifying power surges that were subsequently found to have been caused by faulty wiring. We believe that our attempts to highlight the seriousness of this event were covered up by the KCTMO with the help of the RBKC Scrutiny Committee who refused to investigate the legitimate concerns of tenants and leaseholders.


It sounds like this property management company (KCTMO) has a history of unsafe conditions at their properties.
The Grenfell Tower that burned down last night was just renovated and inspected.

Questions
1. Has the Property Management Group has been allowed to operate unsafe building ignoring fire safety laws?
I would check to see if the fire inspectors have been taking bribes to look the other way.
2. Did someone from the Grenfell Action Group start the fire as a demonstration and it got out of control?

birlinn
06-14-2017, 05:24 AM
An escaped resident has said the fire started with a fridge/freezer in one of the flats.

willmarsh3
06-14-2017, 05:47 AM
Condolences for those affected by this disaster.


This reminds me of the Dubai tower fire

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?188562-Fire-rips-through-Torch-skyscraper-in-Dubai&p=4457655

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-14-2017, 06:25 AM
There are doubts being expressed about the cladding fitted during the refurbishment.

Much more seriously, there are reports that the Fire Brigade arrived at a time when the fire was confined to one flat, said to have been on the fourth floor, but they seem to have been unable either to fight it effectively or to evacuate the building. If there is any substance in these reports, things look very bad indeed.

Peerie Maa
06-14-2017, 07:11 AM
74 in hospital, 6 confirmed dead. Still damping down, and searching for victims.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-14-2017, 07:56 AM
To update my post above, two things that emerged during the BBC lunchtime current affairs radio programme ("The World at One"):

The gas main went straight up the main stairwell, which formed the only fire escape from the building, and was not boxed in.

Standard Fire Brigade advice in tower block fires is "stay in your home and you will be rescued", but this fire was not like any other tower block fires in the UK up to now - it seems to have spread very fast indeed, perhaps through the recently installed "cladding" on the outside of the building.

TomF
06-14-2017, 08:07 AM
Migod, horrifying.

Canoez
06-14-2017, 08:12 AM
Migod, horrifying.

Yes. Awful.

Smoke alarms apparently didn't work. Why didn't sprinkler systems work - or were there none?

isla
06-14-2017, 08:34 AM
A major investigation will no doubt follow. Inefficient, or no fire alarms. Inefficient, or no sprinklers. Inefficient, or no inbuilt fire retention (fire resistant floors, walls and doors etc.) The fast rate of spread throughout the building is quite alarming.

Duncan Gibbs
06-14-2017, 08:43 AM
My best wishes for those affected and injured and my deepest sympathies for those who have perished and their loved ones. :(

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-14-2017, 09:05 AM
Yes. Awful.

Smoke alarms apparently didn't work. Why didn't sprinkler systems work - or were there none?

There were none. A report, commissioned after the last tower block fire, recommends the installation of sprinklers but the report has been sitting on a shelf in a Minister's office for several years... Likewise, there seem to have been no communal fire alarms - although that seems scarcely credible...

TomF
06-14-2017, 09:18 AM
Everything old is new again. :(

Canoez
06-14-2017, 09:21 AM
There were none. A report, commissioned after the last tower block fire, recommends the installation of sprinklers but the report has been sitting on a shelf in a Minister's office for several years... Likewise, there seem to have been no communal fire alarms - although that seems scarcely credible...

It would seem to me that some form of fire suppression in a building that tall would be a mandatory requirement for occupancy. I would assume the fact that this is Council housing may have had something to do with that, horrible as it sounds.

There seems to be plenty of incompetence, ignorance, and just plain blame to go around.

skuthorp
06-14-2017, 09:31 AM
Looking at some helio footage it seems that there are 3 more towers like that in the immediate area. Can we presume that they are all in the same unsafe state?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
06-14-2017, 10:40 AM
The other things which emerged from the BBC R4 WATO interview were the fact that The Shard is five times as tall, and that the firefighters were unable to operate above the eleventh floor.....

isla
06-14-2017, 11:07 AM
London authority admits to breaking fire regulations in years leading up to 2009 incident at Lakanal House that killed six
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/24/southwark-council-admits-safety-failings-tower-block-lakanal-house-blaze

Architect Sam Webb says breaches of fire safety standards in UK are common and lessons from Lakanal House have not been learned..
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/14/disaster-waiting-to-happen-fire-expert-slams-uk-tower-blocks

Canoez
06-14-2017, 11:17 AM
The other things which emerged from the BBC R4 WATO interview were the fact that The Shard is five times as tall, and that the firefighters were unable to operate above the eleventh floor.....

Oh, hell.

skuthorp
06-14-2017, 12:57 PM
Oh hell indeed, there will be hell to pay, or should be after this but from first instance it might be just the beginning.
I made a cynical remark earlier about the persons with responsibility already being on a plane to Argentina… Maybe several special charters full……..

NickW
06-14-2017, 12:59 PM
The BBC is now reporting 12 fatalities and that this "will sadly increase". My condolences and prayers to those affected.
On a related point, I thought gas had been banned from tower blocks following the Ronan Point partial collapse many years ago.

Nick

skuthorp
06-14-2017, 03:49 PM
Fire service is doing a 'room by room' check of the building. A grim task that though with such an intense fire there will not be anything left to find. PTSD is going to be a major problem to manage both in firefighters and police and the thousands of citizens that saw the horror of it. Many will never recover.
Then there are the other towers of similar age, and the realisation that anyone above the 12th floor cannot expect the fire service to help.
As for the building management and owners, and the matter of flammable cladding that will drag on for decades and likely bankrupt everyone concerned.

A witness who saw the fire round floor 5 start said that within 5 minutes it was at the top. Fire brigade was there in 6 minutes.

One man said he watched his Brother in law in a window from another tower till the smoke masked the tower. This is just starting.
Forensic ID teams will be working for a very long time.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-14-2017, 06:26 PM
It looks like 12 confirmed dead, 24 missing presumed dead, and 18 more in intensive care some of whom may not survive. The building is still burning.

This is very different to earlier fires in tower blocks.

PeterSibley
06-14-2017, 06:47 PM
The likelihood is that the cladding was the cause of the fire roaring up the outside, a similar Chinese product was involved in a high rise fire here.

WX
06-14-2017, 07:13 PM
Came across this.
https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

Sailor
06-14-2017, 09:08 PM
Has anyone got an update on this? Is it out yet? Last I heard it was 12 dead with all those missing and presumed dead. I can't imagine an apartment building with no fire suppression or alarm system, the mind boggles. Thoughts are with those left behind. :(

skuthorp
06-14-2017, 09:41 PM
The apartments were designed to contain an internal fire and there have been such fires before without a problem. After the 'upgrade' with the new cladding and what may be plastic window frames from fire behaviour the fire escaped into the flammable cladding and the results you see.

birlinn
06-15-2017, 02:44 AM
More on the cladding here; why does it take a few disasters before it gets round to being banned?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_p_PdqjVvl

Strange- right code, but when you click the link, the code changes and the video is unavailable.

The video was from BBC Newsnight, and showed similar cladding fires in France and the UAE, spreading rapidly.
The manufactures make two versions of the aluminium faced panel- one with a mineral core, and one with a polyethylene foam plastic core.
No prizes for guessing which was used- I wonder which is the cheapest?

The Bigfella
06-15-2017, 03:38 AM
I looked into that stuff after The Torch fire in the UAE in 2015... as I was living on level 43 at the Burj. Scary stuff.

As someone who worked for a building products manufacturer in my first job, I can't understand how the guys that make that sh!t sleep at night. We were driven by fire and smoke ratings with our products.

Architects always knew better than us... stuff had to be pretty, rather than perform well. Idiots.

PeterSibley
06-15-2017, 04:14 AM
More on the cladding here; why does it take a few disasters before it gets round to being banned?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_p_PdqjVvl

Strange- right code, but when you click the link, the code changes.

The video was from BBC Newsnight, and showed similar cladding fires in France and the UAE, spreading rapidly.
The manufactures make two versions of the aluminium faced panel- one with a mineral core, and one with a foam plastic core.
No prizes for guessing which was used- I wonder which is the cheapest?

Unavailable .

birlinn
06-15-2017, 04:41 AM
I looked into that stuff after The Torch fire in the UAE in 2015... as I was living on level 43 at the Burj. Scary stuff.

As someone who worked for a building products manufacturer in my first job, I can't understand how the guys that make that sh!t sleep at night. We were driven by fire and smoke ratings with our products.

Architects always knew better than us... stuff had to be pretty, rather than perform well. Idiots.
As an Architect involved with cold stores and food factories twenty years ago, I know at first hand exactly what happens to metal panels with foam plastic cores in a fire. They have been banned in the UK for years for new cold stores and factories, following a fatal factory fire. Why they are still allowed for external cladding is beyond my comprehension. The big problem is once alight, there is sufficient air in the foam to maintain combustion, but no access to the foam inside the panel to extinguish the blaze.

Phillip Allen
06-15-2017, 06:27 AM
More on the cladding here; why does it take a few disasters before it gets round to being banned?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_p_PdqjVvl

Strange- right code, but when you click the link, the code changes and the video is unavailable.

The video was from BBC Newsnight, and showed similar cladding fires in France and the UAE, spreading rapidly.
The manufactures make two versions of the aluminium faced panel- one with a mineral core, and one with a polyethylene foam plastic core.
No prizes for guessing which was used- I wonder which is the cheapest?

video has been taken down

skuthorp
06-15-2017, 06:30 AM
Not surprised, too many views might make empaneling a jury difficult in the near future.

Edward Pearson
06-15-2017, 06:59 AM
It's thought this is the stuff: US Arconic's Reynobond PE.

https://www.arconic.com/aap/europe/en/product_category.asp?cat_id=1843


https://www.arconic.com/aap/europe/catalog/images/reyno_composite_EN.jpg


And the broad safety cert of Reynobond covering all types.

https://www.arconic.com/aap/europe/pdf/Certifications%20page_042014.pdf


It would seem only the Reynobond FR version (fire resistant mineral core version) complies with EU 13501-1, and then only B rated (limited combustable) which is less than A (non combustable - things like concrete). Its given a s1 (absent or weak smoke) and d0 (no dripping). They do explain that its the FR version that is suitable for high rise buildings.



The 13501 standard that deals with how products contribute to fire as they degrade:-

https://www.peroni.com/lang_UK/_download/EN_Reaction_to_Fire_Classification.pdf



The Reynobond PE isn't rated under EU 13501-1 only to a BS476 standard.

https://www.arconic.com/aap/europe/en/info_page/certified_fire_solutions_aluminium_cladding_facade s_roofs.asp


So it would seem that this is primarily a buildings regulations and fire dept inspection failure to me when it was 'refurbished.' The whole UK architecture passive safety philosophy and thus fire dept response for people to stay in the flats, assumed the fire can't spread between levels...you can see on the video the PE was combustable and was 'dripping' off the facade.

Peerie Maa
06-15-2017, 07:07 AM
17 confirmed dead, building will have to have internal shoring installed before it can be searched properly. Sniffer dogs are being deployed,
More than 30 still in hospital, 17 in a critical condition.

skuthorp
06-15-2017, 07:08 AM
Hmmm, I'm beginning to wonder who isn't going to get sued over this.

birlinn
06-15-2017, 07:43 AM
video has been taken down
Still there- put 'Why did the fire at Grenfell Tower spread so quickly?- BBC Newsnight' in to YouTube search, and you will find it.
I don't know why the link doesn't work.

Phillip Allen
06-15-2017, 08:14 AM
Still there- put 'Why did the fire at Grenfell Tower spread so quickly?- BBC Newsnight' in to YouTube search, and you will find it.
I don't know why the link doesn't work.

thank you... I spent most of my adult life in construction... primarily masonry so I take an interest in this

Edward Pearson
06-15-2017, 08:27 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_p_PdqjVvI

skuthorp
06-15-2017, 08:47 AM
I found it. Horrifying.

isla
06-15-2017, 08:49 AM
The former Conservative housing minister warned against increasing fire safety regulations to include sprinklers because it could discourage house building.
As the death toll from the Grenfell Tower blaze rose to 12, it emerged Brandon Lewis, who was recently promoted to immigration minister, declined in 2014 to force building developers to fit sprinklers.
Mr Lewis declined to bring in regulation forcing developers to fit sprinklers because he said it was not the Government's responsibility.

He told MPs: “We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-fire-safety-rules-sprinklers-brandon-lewis-warn-house-building-social-housing-tory-a7790921.html

Yeah right, that's going to work :rolleyes: In my experience in industry, if there is no regulation for a company to comply with, then they will most likely neglect health and safety issues.

Grenfell Tower had just undergone a refurbishment, so it is likely that sprinklers would have been installed as part of the refurb if legislation had been introduced in 2014.

Phillip Allen
06-15-2017, 10:50 AM
The former Conservative housing minister warned against increasing fire safety regulations to include sprinklers because it could discourage house building.
As the death toll from the Grenfell Tower blaze rose to 12, it emerged Brandon Lewis, who was recently promoted to immigration minister, declined in 2014 to force building developers to fit sprinklers.
Mr Lewis declined to bring in regulation forcing developers to fit sprinklers because he said it was not the Government's responsibility.

He told MPs: “We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-fire-safety-rules-sprinklers-brandon-lewis-warn-house-building-social-housing-tory-a7790921.html

Yeah right, that's going to work :rolleyes: In my experience in industry, if there is no regulation for a company to comply with, then they will most likely neglect health and safety issues.

Grenfell Tower had just undergone a refurbishment, so it is likely that sprinklers would have been installed as part of the refurb if legislation had been introduced in 2014.

I see your point... and agree

Peerie Maa
06-15-2017, 12:01 PM
The former Conservative housing minister warned against increasing fire safety regulations to include sprinklers because it could discourage house building.
As the death toll from the Grenfell Tower blaze rose to 12, it emerged Brandon Lewis, who was recently promoted to immigration minister, declined in 2014 to force building developers to fit sprinklers.
Mr Lewis declined to bring in regulation forcing developers to fit sprinklers because he said it was not the Government's responsibility.

He told MPs: “We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-fire-safety-rules-sprinklers-brandon-lewis-warn-house-building-social-housing-tory-a7790921.html

Yeah right, that's going to work :rolleyes: In my experience in industry, if there is no regulation for a company to comply with, then they will most likely neglect health and safety issues.

Grenfell Tower had just undergone a refurbishment, so it is likely that sprinklers would have been installed as part of the refurb if legislation had been introduced in 2014.

Typical small government conservative.
Every time the Tories repealed regulations it went badly for the UK.

stromborg
06-15-2017, 12:08 PM
Politics and money always seem to drive code writing ahead of engineering.

We had a nasty house fire a few years back (fortunately no injuries) where somebody had put a lovely decorative metal roof on sleepers over the original asphalt shingle. The metal was heavy enough that it took a really long time to burn through and there was a lot of fire between the sleepers that we couldn't get.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-15-2017, 05:59 PM
Just a general point.

This was a horrible, horrible, thing.

Apart from that, it has a political dimension. That will prove to be very large. I will not be surprised to see it bring down the Government.

skuthorp
06-15-2017, 06:11 PM
Will it bring down the Lord Mayor do you think, just because he was in office at the time?
Are the regulations set by the LCC or the national government.?

willmarsh3
06-15-2017, 06:27 PM
About that cladding:


"A bit less fireproof?"; it looks downright incindiary!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-15-2017, 06:29 PM
Will it bring down the Lord Mayor do you think, just because he was in office at the time?
Are the regulations set by the LCC or the national government.?

National Government. The GLC (not LCC for a while now) has a supervisory/regulatory function, which may not have been discharged well.

I think the Mayor of London is one of the few politicians who is safe, here.

robm
06-15-2017, 06:57 PM
The GLC (not LCC for a while now) has a supervisory/regulatory function, which may not have been discharged well.

Interesting. In Canada, we have a National Building Code, which is accepted, with modifications to suit local conditions, by the provinces. The City of Vancouver is unique in being able to set standards over and above those in the provincial building code. To quote from their website:


Vancouver's ability to adopt its own Building By-law is unique in British Columbia. This ability has provided the City of Vancouver the opportunity to be a leader with respect to building regulations, in the areas of accessibility; alteration to existing buildings; artist live/work studios; energy efficiency; rain screen requirements and mandatory sprinklering of buildings.


I understand that fire protection requirements are extremely rigourous. I won't say "it couldn't happen here" but it wouldn't be as bad, that is for certain.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-16-2017, 04:47 AM
The number of dead may never be known, but is certainly over 60 and may be over 100.

This horror is bound to acquire a political dimension.

I was interested to learn that in US apartment blocks, sprinkler systems are mandatory. They are not, here*.

The grade of cladding used is only permitted on buildings up to 40ft high in the USA.

Mrs May visited the scene, but spoke only in private to the emergency services and did not meet survivors - a Government minister cited "security concerns". This has not played well.

* Curiously, British flag passenger ships have had sprinklers for many many years but unless the rules have changed recently the USCG does not require them.

PeterSibley
06-16-2017, 04:54 AM
Are smoke alarms mandatory Andrew ?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-16-2017, 05:00 AM
Are smoke alarms mandatory Andrew ?

Yes, they are, as are CO alarms*. But I have heard it suggested that whilst each individual apartment had a smoke alarm, the building's main fire alarm system was too quiet to be effective. To which we must add the disastrously wrong advice to stay in your apartment and wait to be rescued.

*I can't cook a steak without setting the damn thing off - and I like my steak very rare!

PeterSibley
06-16-2017, 05:08 AM
It's probable that advice to remain was good up until the building was wrapped in inflammable cladding, the fire should have been contained to an individual flat but something has gone very wrong with the original design. How did the fire get inside ?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
06-16-2017, 06:08 AM
Yes, they are, as are CO alarms*. But I have heard it suggested that whilst each individual apartment had a smoke alarm, the building's main fire alarm system was too quiet to be effective. To which we must add the disastrously wrong advice to stay in your apartment and wait to be rescued.

*I can't cook a steak without setting the damn thing off - and I like my steak very rare!

How are you cooking the steak? That's not normally a process which produces carbon monoxide.

Peerie Maa
06-16-2017, 06:35 AM
It's probable that advice to remain was good up until the building was wrapped in inflammable cladding, the fire should have been contained to an individual flat but something has gone very wrong with the original design. How did the fire get inside ?

I agree. They posted a photo of the inside of a tower block flat when discussing this on t' news. The flat was gutted, nothing more than a blackened box open to the outside where the windows used to be. The fire did not spread to neighbouring flats.

How did it get inside? Radiant heat from the burning claddings flames bursting the glass and melting the plastic window frames. Then a flashover from hot air at the top of the rooms.

PeterSibley
06-16-2017, 06:35 AM
An unvented gas heater does a good job of CO production though.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-16-2017, 08:40 AM
How are you cooking the steak? That's not normally a process which produces carbon monoxide.

I walked into that one. The smoke alarm of course - and toast is out of the question!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-16-2017, 08:43 AM
I agree. They posted a photo of the inside of a tower block flat when discussing this on t' news. The flat was gutted, nothing more than a blackened box open to the outside where the windows used to be. The fire did not spread to neighbouring flats.

How did it get inside? Radiant heat from the burning claddings flames bursting the glass and melting the plastic window frames. Then a flashover from hot air at the top of the rooms.

From my limited knowledge of fire theory, all of it maritime, that sounds right.

skaraborgcraft
06-16-2017, 11:07 AM
Mrs May visited the scene, but spoke only in private to the emergency services and did not meet survivors - a Government minister cited "security concerns". This has not played well.

Odd that the Queen was down there today chatting with people. That May woman is so far removed from the people of this country.

Peerie Maa
06-16-2017, 11:28 AM
17:07 UK-based company Omnis supplied the panels used for cladding in Grenfell Tower. They have told the BBC's Jim Reed that they were asked to supply one of the cheaper, more flammable versions available then. The company can supply more expensive, fire-retardant versions of the panels now - a type called Reynobond FR - but it is not clear if they were available at the time.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/430101727904149504/YLjrqbJn_bigger.jpeg Jim Reed @jim_reed (https://twitter.com/jim_reed)
UK-based Omnis, which supplied panels used for cladding #Grenfell (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Grenfell?src=hash), confirms to BBC was asked to supply cheaper, more flammable version.

Jim Reed @jim_reed (https://twitter.com/jim_reed)
Omnis didn't manufacturer the panels. They supplied and 'fabricated' them, basically means cut them into shape. Made by US-based Arconic.
3:14 PM - 16 Jun 2017

(https://twitter.com/jim_reed/status/875718335664705538)Jim Reed @jim_reed (https://twitter.com/jim_reed) Some confusion over whether the more expensive, fire-retardant, versions of those panels were even available in 2015. Certainly very new.

(https://twitter.com/jim_reed/status/875718335664705538) Jim Reed @jim_reed (https://twitter.com/jim_reed) Omnis's John Cowley told us cladding system in #Grenfell (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Grenfell?src=hash) made from different components from different suppliers, which can be less safe.
3:20 PM - 16 Jun 2017 (https://twitter.com/jim_reed/status/875719817185153024)

from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-40239008

skaraborgcraft
06-16-2017, 01:46 PM
No surprise to find human lives have a price limit. Im wondering who signed off on the building. What point fitting a 30 minute rated fire door if the cladding is combustable? I believe there is a bit of a ruckus down at city hall at this time.....

skuthorp
06-16-2017, 04:39 PM
Yes, it seems a council building was 'invaded' by protesters...
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/grenfell-tower-protest-hundreds-gather-at-kensington-and-chelsea-town-hall-demanding-justice-for-a3567086.html

Sky Blue
06-16-2017, 05:05 PM
What stands out for me right now is the stark social inequality that the event has now become representative of. Mr. Corbyn is effectively stoking this perception and doing so as an act of political leadership, no matter how odious it may seem to some. Contrast this with the Tories, who are absolutely leaderless. Run, hide...

Peerie Maa
06-16-2017, 05:08 PM
^ Ever thought that he might just be a compassionate sort of bloke? Was HMQ being political?

skuthorp
06-16-2017, 05:23 PM
Tories are desperate to hang on to power, desperate enough to imperil the Northern Ireland agreement and allow the hard men back.
It seems like the rest of us competent and principled politicians are in very short supply.

Sky Blue
06-16-2017, 05:28 PM
^ Ever thought that he might just be a compassionate sort of bloke?

Not really. He's an incredibly sharp, veteran politician. I have very high regard for his skill.

Peerie Maa
06-16-2017, 05:31 PM
It can't be pleasant being you.

Sky Blue
06-16-2017, 05:51 PM
That's not to say that he isn't a compassionate man, I imagine compassion for ordinary people deeply informs his worldview. It's just not what I'm looking for when studying Corbyn nor does such a characterization capture the essence of what he represents as a skilled politician.

Insults are unbecoming to you, Nick.

Sky Blue
06-16-2017, 06:27 PM
This, too has recently resurfaced...


https://youtu.be/UN3e-aYUusc

Peerie Maa
06-17-2017, 05:46 AM
It's just not what I'm looking for when studying Corbyn nor does such a characterization capture the essence of what he represents as a skilled politician.

Insults are unbecoming to you, Nick.

Gobbledygook, trying to disguise an unpleasant level of mean spirited cynicism and a default to the lowest level.

Why not just admit that you were wrong to assume that Corbyn is as cynical as you, and manipulative to boot.

Sky Blue
06-17-2017, 08:51 AM
Gobbledygook, trying to disguise an unpleasant level of mean spirited cynicism and a default to the lowest level.

Why not just admit that you were wrong to assume that Corbyn is as cynical as you, and manipulative to boot.

This thread is not about me, Nick. I'm sorry you're so miserable.

Peerie Maa
06-17-2017, 10:30 AM
What stands out for me right now is the stark social inequality that the event has now become representative of. Mr. Corbyn is effectively stoking this perception and doing so as an act of political leadership, no matter how odious it may seem to some. Contrast this with the Tories, who are absolutely leaderless. Run, hide...


This thread is not about me, Nick. I'm sorry you're so miserable.

So stop trying to make political mileage out of a tragedy.

Sky Blue
06-17-2017, 11:55 AM
So stop trying to make political mileage out of a tragedy.

Well, first of all, I'm not a British citizen and so cannot "make political mileage" out of anything. I'm just sharing observations and opinions.

Moreover, I've been admiring aspects of Mr. Corbyn's character and skill for a couple of weeks now. Finally, others have discussed the political ramifications of this event, with ACB predicting that it may bring down the entire government.

Nothing I've said here justifies any insult, Nick. You're simply being rude, and as noted above, it is unbecoming to you.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
06-17-2017, 12:56 PM
This message has been deleted by Paul Pless.

Keepin' thread drift in check.

Peerie Maa
06-17-2017, 01:51 PM
Search dogs
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCiRbDCW0AA7Dzl.jpg

In protective boots.

PhaseLockedLoop
06-17-2017, 06:34 PM
How did the people who got out, get out? Stairs? Elevators?

Peerie Maa
06-18-2017, 05:18 AM
^ Stairs, never use the elevators in a fire.

Chippie
06-18-2017, 10:13 AM
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/818149/theresa-may-newsnight-grenfell-tower-bbc-interview-jeremy-corbyn-emily-maitlis-government


Not being a Political animal I am unable to point a finger anyone in particular.

However watching the linked video it struck me when Maitlis pointed out to May " that was Wednesday it is now Friday evening" there is a serious lack of ability to tackle situations on the ground here.

We have survivors who are traumatised, exposed to the elements, nothing but what the stand up in no money or change of clothing. Yet no action appears to have taken place (officially) to tackle this.

Hindsight is ... Someone should have sent Portable toilets to the immediate area, and directed the Military to provide field kitchens and Catering Corps troops to feed the needy could be implemented in a short time surely.

Was any nearby Hotels nearby taken over to accommodate the victims?

OK. there would be onlookers trying to abuse these measures, but the punishment for anyone doing so would be well broadcast, and the punishment would be Draconian. That would be part of the Plan.

Emergency units were deployed but they appear to be inadequate.

genglandoh
06-20-2017, 10:37 PM
From your link.
Nov 20 2016 - KCTMO – Playing with fire!
It is our conviction that a serious fire in a tower block or similar high density residential property is the most likely reason that those who wield power at the KCTMO will be found out and brought to justice! The Grenfell Action Group believe that the KCTMO narrowly averted a major fire disaster at Grenfell Tower in 2013 when residents experienced a period of terrifying power surges that were subsequently found to have been caused by faulty wiring. We believe that our attempts to highlight the seriousness of this event were covered up by the KCTMO with the help of the RBKC Scrutiny Committee who refused to investigate the legitimate concerns of tenants and leaseholders.


It sounds like this property management company (KCTMO) has a history of unsafe conditions at their properties.
The Grenfell Tower that burned down last night was just renovated and inspected.

Questions
1. Has the Property Management Group has been allowed to operate unsafe building ignoring fire safety laws?
I would check to see if the fire inspectors have been taking bribes to look the other way.
2. Did someone from the Grenfell Action Group start the fire as a demonstration and it got out of control?

Title: Grenfell Tower: 79 presumed dead in London fire
Link: http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/19/europe/london-grenfell-tower-fire/index.html

skuthorp
06-20-2017, 11:52 PM
If there was a disaster plan, as we've had here for decades, then it didn't go into action. I would have thought that by 30 minutes into the fire a major disaster was in the making. Yet nothing, or at least not much.

WX
06-21-2017, 05:20 AM
Looks like there maybe a few buildings clad with similar products here in Australia.

skuthorp
06-21-2017, 05:38 AM
Much more than a few Gary. Court cases are pending, the lawyers are rubbing their hands, and the public and unsuspecting apartment owners will be shafted.
Bankruptcies amongst the building industry and suppliers will abound. Some real, some 'convenient'.

skuthorp
06-24-2017, 04:19 AM
800 households to be evacuated from tower residential blocks now considered unsafe.
And they started evacuations at……..8.00 pm.

"FIVE London tower blocks containing 800 homes were being immediately evacuated Friday due to fire safety concerns over their external cladding following the deadly Grenfell Tower inferno, marking one of the biggest peacetime evacuations in Britain’s history. The move comes as residents of thousands of tower blocks around Britain expressed concern about safety after commonly used building materials were blamed for rapidly spreading the blaze at Grenfell Tower.
Camden Council in north London, which announced the evacuation Friday night, was the first local government to take the dramatic step of emptying its buildings so safety upgrades could be made."

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/police-say-faulty-fridge-caused-grenfell-tower-fire-as-manslaughter-charges-considered/news-story/889aa5fc500aaa36167c42bd4020c463

Corporate manslaughter charges are being considered.
Good grief.

birlinn
06-24-2017, 04:23 AM
Knee jerk reactions as usual.

skuthorp
06-24-2017, 04:24 AM
Insurance birlin, insurance. (or the lack of it)

Peerie Maa
06-24-2017, 05:29 AM
If there was a disaster plan, as we've had here for decades, then it didn't go into action. I would have thought that by 30 minutes into the fire a major disaster was in the making. Yet nothing, or at least not much.

The plan was based on the cladding not burning. There are photos of a flat gutted by fire in a different tower block, with the surrounding cladding smoke damaged but unburned.
That behaviour resulted in the advice to stay put, whilst the concrete walls and floor structure contained the fire.
Now that the authorities know that corners have been cut in the supply of flammable cladding, thorough investigation and remedial action is underway.

The Bigfella
06-24-2017, 05:34 AM
The plan was based on the cladding not burning. There are photos of a flat gutted by fire in a different tower block, with the surrounding cladding smoke damaged but unburned.
That behaviour resulted in the advice to stay put, whilst the concrete walls and floor structure contained the fire.
Now that the authorities know that corners have been cut in the supply of flammable cladding, thorough investigation and remedial action is underway.

Oh, so the fires in Dubai provided no indication of what might happen?

skuthorp
06-24-2017, 06:09 AM
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Likely considered too big a political problem to admit to, so they just hoped.
There's probably a committee somewhere that hasn't met yet.

Peerie Maa
06-24-2017, 07:34 AM
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Likely considered too big a political problem to admit to, so they just hoped.
There's probably a committee somewhere that hasn't met yet.

Likely believed that the contractors provided the correct material and fitted it correctly. The enquiries and criminal prosecutions being discussed will establish whether that was so.

skuthorp
06-24-2017, 04:39 PM
Radio report this morning is that 38 similar buildings across the UK are involved. That is a massive personal, logistical, financial and political problem. This report says 27 towers.

"At least 27 council-owned high rises across 15 local authorities have failed tests and found to be fitted with similar combustible cladding to that used on Grenfell Tower, it has emerged. Tests revealed blocks across the UK are fitted with flammable panels after a “small number” of samples were analysed, the Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG) said."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/combustible-cladding-test-fire-safety-14-towers-locations-grenfell-latest-a7805176.html

And his might be the beginning….
Amongst the comments look at Nina Cumbria re hospitals, and Herma re private business sign off's on some of these projects.


This is just the tip of the iceberg. Look at this article about a PFI hospital in Carlisle. Not only could this type of cladding be in other buildings but the Carlisle case shows other defects, such as walls designed to stop fires not going about the ceiling level, so basically made to look like they'd do the job from a basic inspection, fire doors labelled above the spec they actually were etc. http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/Carlisle-hospital-safety-failures-revealed-3ab79962-f7c7-46c5-b79f-7b8708464c4e-d



This is not just about flammable cladding. This is also about how Private Finance Initiative (PFI) managed to sign off projects and obtain public funds whilst leaving council housing in dangerously defective condition. Rydon's contract to "improve and maintain" these tower blocks runs until 2021.

Peerie Maa
06-25-2017, 04:21 AM
Whilst PPI has proven to be an (hugely) expensive way to finance projects, it is just that, a way to attract finance. The problems that you highlight lie with unscrupulous building contractors, and underfunded local authorities unable to resource adequate building inspection departments.

Phillip Allen
06-25-2017, 07:56 AM
in all my years (primarily in Arkansas) I can only think of one instance of bypassing inspection to avoid getting caught... I quit the company right away

skuthorp
06-25-2017, 04:34 PM
Sixty buildings now found to be unsafe.

Phillip Allen
06-25-2017, 04:39 PM
in all my years (primarily in Arkansas) I can only think of one instance of bypassing inspection to avoid getting caught... I quit the company right away

I thought of another... I quit them too... they nearly got some people killed I heard later

skuthorp
06-26-2017, 09:51 PM
All 75 buildings so far inspected have the wrong cladding, but the fire engineering inside the building seems to have failed and fire spread laterally and vertically from flat to flat which was not expected to happen.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
06-27-2017, 02:04 AM
This is getting really really ugly.

The (hitherto) standard approach to fires in tower blocks called for containment of any fire to a single dwelling - all other people remain in place - after all the (single!) stairwell will not cope withthe rush.

And then people started looking!

The cladding systems are only a part of the problem - the internal fire containment systems are not in place either!
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/hundreds-of-fire-doors-were-missing-from-tower-blocks-evacuated-in-camden-a3573551.html


On a related note - This is going to be spectacular in places and hit some folks hard.
A couple I know have a three bed flat in a tower block in central London and are considering another child - the plan - sell flat buy house in commuterland and raise kids - the previous three generations have done exactly that.

Flat on market - valued at £750K - and a big slab of tht is the current mortgage.
Grenfell tower burns.
Phone call from estate agent - advise taking it off the market and/or prepare for lowball offers.

Offer of £52K!

There's indirect control of fertility.

skuthorp
06-27-2017, 03:05 AM
So the fire doors were in place when the tower was built?
Residents removed them or building management?
Who was/is responsible for inspections, government fire service, building management, or residents? And did any of them have the power to order remediation?
Breeches in fire walls. Who has been cutting holes, residents?

This could be bigger than Brexit, and almost as expensive.

Peerie Maa
06-27-2017, 03:58 AM
So the fire doors were in place when the tower was built?
Residents removed them or building management?
Who was/is responsible for inspections, government fire service, building management, or residents? And did any of them have the power to order remediation?
Breeches in fire walls. Who has been cutting holes, residents?

This could be bigger than Brexit, and almost as expensive.

It has been suggested that residents swapped the fire doors on their flats for better looking front doors.

Phillip Allen
06-27-2017, 04:12 AM
I find changing out doors to be highly unlikely

Peerie Maa
06-27-2017, 04:23 AM
I find changing out doors to be highly unlikely

Why? Do you not want to put your stamp on the entrance to your home? Paint it a colour of your choice, have leaded glass fitted, have a solid (looking) teak door? All you need is a screw driver.

Phillip Allen
06-27-2017, 04:57 AM
Why? Do you not want to put your stamp on the entrance to your home? Paint it a colour of your choice, have leaded glass fitted, have a solid (looking) teak door? All you need is a screw driver.a fire door will be very heavy and also, most people wouldn't have the skills to do the fitting needed for replacement. further, who is gonna pay for it and what do you do with the discarded doors?... that would leave an obvious trail (As it were)

The Bigfella
06-27-2017, 05:06 AM
a fire door will be very heavy and also, most people wouldn't have the skills to do the fitting needed for replacement. further, who is gonna pay for it and what do you do with the discarded doors?... that would leave an obvious trail (As it were)

Nah... you burn 'em

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
06-27-2017, 05:11 AM
Many of the apartments in these blocks will by now be in private ownership - up to about 1980 social housing was predominantly supplied by the local councils or housing associations and available only to rent.

The law was changed which allowed the occupier to buy (often at knock don prices) the apartment - many many people took this option -and one of the first thing s they would do was stamp it as privately owned - either by a new double glazing or a new front door.

These changes are practical and reasonable in a terraced or semi-detatched house - but, unless done properly, insane in a tower block.

Fitting a door aint that hard - it would be a sad sort who didn't have a friend who could do that.

Phillip Allen
06-27-2017, 05:45 AM
Many of the apartments in these blocks will by now be in private ownership - up to about 1980 social housing was predominantly supplied by the local councils or housing associations and available only to rent.

The law was changed which allowed the occupier to buy (often at knock don prices) the apartment - many many people took this option -and one of the first thing s they would do was stamp it as privately owned - either by a new double glazing or a new front door.

These changes are practical and reasonable in a terraced or semi-detatched house - but, unless done properly, insane in a tower block.

Fitting a door aint that hard - it would be a sad sort who didn't have a friend who could do that.

I still think it unlikely... consider it intuitive... of course there is another culture to consider, I suppose

skuthorp
06-27-2017, 07:21 AM
No one expects a whole building to burn down just because their front door is no longer fire rated…….. And maybe it wouldn't have if the cladding was fire resistant…….. But cyanide gas was put out by the burning cladding so even if the fire hadn't spread as much the toll would likely have been bad enough.

Peerie Maa
06-27-2017, 09:10 AM
No one expects a whole building to burn down just because their front door is no longer fire rated…….. And maybe it wouldn't have if the cladding was fire resistant…….. But cyanide gas was put out by the burning cladding so even if the fire hadn't spread as much the toll would likely have been bad enough.

Different tower blocks, different borough. Evacuated due to a lack of fire doors, dubious lagging on gas piping as well as a cladding issue.

As I have stated before, good fire doors, the concrete structure, and non flammable cladding left a pensioners flat reduces to an empty box with no window frames, but merely smoke damaged the cladding around the burned out window i8n a different tower block.

A flammable front door would have allowed the fire to transfer to the landing, perhaps to the lift shafts and neighbouring flats.

Phillip Allen
06-27-2017, 09:19 AM
No one expects a whole building to burn down just because their front door is no longer fire rated…….. And maybe it wouldn't have if the cladding was fire resistant…….. But cyanide gas was put out by the burning cladding so even if the fire hadn't spread as much the toll would likely have been bad enough.

yep