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genglandoh
05-26-2017, 07:03 AM
Title: Egypt attack: Gunfire on bus carrying Coptic Christians kills at least 26
Coptic Christians kills at least 26
A team of gunmen opened fire on a bus carrying Coptic Christians traveling just south of Cairo Friday, killing at least 26 people, including children, and wounding 25 other people, Egyptian officials confirmed.
As many as 10 attackers stormed the bus dressed in military uniforms, according to witnesses.
No group immediately claimed responsibility for the attack, but Egypt’s Coptic Christians have become the preferred target of the Islamic State in the region. Egypt's Copts, the Middle East's largest Christian community, have repeatedly cried out for help from discrimination, as well as outright attacks, at the hands of the country's majority Muslim population.
Link: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/26/egypt-attack-gunfire-on-bus-carrying-coptic-christians-kills-at-least-26.html

Reynard38
05-26-2017, 07:10 AM
Think I'll stay the heck out of Egypt.

LeeG
05-26-2017, 07:20 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Egypt

About 95% [1] of the country's 93 million people (2017)[2] live along the banks of the Nile and in the Nile Delta, which fans out north of Cairo; and along the Suez Canal. These regions are among the world's most densely populated, containing an average of over 3,820 persons per square mile (1,540 per km².), as compared to 181 persons per sq. mi. for the country as a whole.

According to the Peterson Institute for International Economics and other proponents of demographic structural approach (cliodynamics), the basic problem Egypt has is unemployment driven by a demographic youth bulge: with the number of new people entering the job force at about 4% a year, unemployment in Egypt is almost 10 times as high for college graduates as it is for people who have gone through elementary school, particularly educated urban youth, who comprised most of the people that were seen out in the streets during the Egyptian Revolution of 2011. An estimated 75% of Egyptians are under the age of 25 with just 3% over the age of 65, making it one of the most youthful populations in the world.[3][4]

Dave Hadfield
05-26-2017, 07:34 AM
I'll say it first -- it's all our fault.

We bombed Dresden.

genglandoh
05-26-2017, 07:39 AM
I'll say it first -- it's all our fault.

We bombed Dresden.

I am surprised that the Dems have not blamed Trump.

LeeG
05-26-2017, 07:40 AM
Sea level rise will mess with Egypts ability to grow food.

http://research.fit.edu/sealevelriselibrary/documents/doc_mgr/387/Egypt_CC_&_SLR_Impacts_-_Elsharkawy_et_al_2009.pdf

genglandoh
05-26-2017, 07:46 AM
Sea level rise will mess with Egypts ability to grow food.

http://research.fit.edu/sealevelriselibrary/documents/doc_mgr/387/Egypt_CC_&_SLR_Impacts_-_Elsharkawy_et_al_2009.pdf

I am sorry, the real blame goes to Global warming.

LeeG
05-26-2017, 07:49 AM
I am sorry, the real blame goes to Global warming.

Blame?

genglandoh
05-26-2017, 07:52 AM
Blame?

I thought you were blaming the killings on Global Warming, why else would you post information about sea level rising in this thread.

Garret
05-26-2017, 07:55 AM
I am surprised that the Dems have not blamed Trump.

It's all Trump's fault. Happy now? :)

LeeG
05-26-2017, 07:55 AM
https://egyptianstreets.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/homocidemap.png

Garret
05-26-2017, 07:57 AM
Greenland has a higher murder rate than the US? Now that's a surprise.

LeeG
05-26-2017, 07:57 AM
I thought you were blaming the killings on Global Warming, why else would you post information about sea level rising in this thread.

Not at all. I'm posting info concerning factors that will stress Egypts society. By the way any thought about the US and Egypt relative murder rates?


https://egyptianstreets.com/2014/04/11/murder-rate-in-egypt-spikes-since-revolution/

Despite Egypt’s homicide rate almost ‘tripling’ since 2009 Egypt still has lower homicide rates than most African, Asian, and American countries, including the United States of America.

genglandoh
05-26-2017, 08:14 AM
Not at all. I'm posting info concerning factors that will stress Egypts society. By the way any thought about the US and Egypt relative murder rates?


https://egyptianstreets.com/2014/04/11/murder-rate-in-egypt-spikes-since-revolution/

Despite Egypt’s homicide rate almost ‘tripling’ since 2009 Egypt still has lower homicide rates than most African, Asian, and American countries, including the United States of America.

So you are posting excuses as to why the Muslim Gunmen decided to attack and kill Christians.
They are all stressed out over Global Warming.

LeeG
05-26-2017, 08:18 AM
So you are posting excuses as to why the Muslim Gunmen decided to attack and kill Christians.
They are all stressed out over Global Warming.

Now now Geng you know I didn't say that. Factors stressing Egypt is not the same as terrorists attacking people. See, even the words aren't the same. Isn't it surprising that the US has a higher murder rate than Egypt with all the things going on there?

genglandoh
05-26-2017, 08:23 AM
Now now Geng you know I didn't say that. Factors stressing Egypt is not the same as terrorists attacking people. See, even the words aren't the same. Isn't it surprising that the US has a higher murder rate than Egypt with all the things going on there?

You keep posting excuses for their actions.
First it was because they are stressed out over Global Warming.
Now you are trying to say that since Egypt has a low overall murder rate that killing 26 is OK.

LeeG
05-26-2017, 08:27 AM
You keep posting excuses for their actions.
First it was because they are stressed out over Global Warming.
Now you are trying to say that since Egypt has a low overall murder rate that killing 26 is OK.

So what's the excuse for Americans killing Americans?

TomF
05-26-2017, 08:30 AM
So what's the excuse for Americans killing Americans?That's obvious. The good guys with guns are shooting the bad guys with guns.

Garret
05-26-2017, 08:31 AM
You keep posting excuses for their actions.
First it was because they are stressed out over Global Warming.
Now you are trying to say that since Egypt has a low overall murder rate that killing 26 is OK.

You are reading WAY too much into what he said. He was merely adding info, not saying it was a cause (though it will exacerbate things down the road). I do find it interesting that Egypt has a lower murder rate than the US does though.

genglandoh
05-26-2017, 08:36 AM
Quote from one of the Muslims is clear why they did it.

"God gave orders to kill every infidel," one of the militants carrying an AK-47 assault rifle said in the 20-minute video.

leikec
05-26-2017, 08:37 AM
You keep posting excuses for their actions.
First it was because they are stressed out over Global Warming.
Now you are trying to say that since Egypt has a low overall murder rate that killing 26 is OK.

How many American Muslims do you want to kill in order to even the score? If not Americans, then how many Egyptian Muslims? Will any Muslims do, or are you interested in justice instead of revenge...

Jeff C

LeeG
05-26-2017, 08:56 AM
You are reading WAY too much into what he said. He was merely adding info, not saying it was a cause (though it will exacerbate things down the road). I do find it interesting that Egypt has a lower murder rate than the US does though.

I don't think Geng reads.

LeeG
05-26-2017, 09:09 AM
Quote from one of the Muslims is clear why they did it.

"God gave orders to kill every infidel," one of the militants carrying an AK-47 assault rifle said in the 20-minute video.


Yes and Pat Robertson says Trump is doing Gods will. On Jan 29 2017 God's will killed 25 civilians in Yemen.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakla_raid

BrianW
05-26-2017, 09:38 AM
I don't think Geng reads.

You're off base this time.

First you post an article on population density, then one on global warming, finally you post an article about murder rate by country.

Clearing avoiding the issue of Islamic Terrorism and highlighting other possible reasons.

Are you unwilling or unable to discuss why those Christians were actually killed?

LeeG
05-26-2017, 09:48 AM
You're off base this time.

First you post an article on population density, then one on global warming, finally you post an article about murder rate by country.

Clearing avoiding the issue of Islamic Terrorism and highlighting other possible reasons.

Are you unwilling or unable to discuss why those Christians were actually killed?

I'd be glad to. Not sure which group did the attack but I assume it's to undermine the Egyptian govt and it's security forces.

Don't think I'm off base characterizing Geng.

Geng has a bad habit of characterizing a country from violent events. I like adding some other things.

Phillip Allen
05-26-2017, 09:49 AM
as always... according to uncle Joe, one death is a tragedy but many (26) more is just a statistic

LeeG
05-26-2017, 09:55 AM
as always... according to uncle Joe, one death is a tragedy but many (26) more is just a statistic

Exactly, like US murder rate being higher than Egypt is just a statistic.

BrianW
05-26-2017, 09:59 AM
I'd be glad to. Not sure which group did the attack but I assume it's to undermine the Egyptian govt and it's security forces.

To advance their goal of a modern Islamic Caliphate, in which more Christians will suffer. I'm not sure how much influence the Coptic Christians in Egypt hold over the present government. It seems unlikely these attacks will do much to change things there, but it does fulfill the Islamic terrorists goal of killing infidels.


Don't think I'm off base characterizing Geng.

Your distractions did nothing to undermine Gengladoh on this topic.

BrianW
05-26-2017, 10:02 AM
Probably the fault of Westboro Church, or the crazy Koran burning preacher from Florida...


http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2017/5/26/1394fdd600064fbebe64aa92e90c5b6f_6.jpg

Old Dryfoot
05-26-2017, 10:02 AM
That's it, keep a close eye on those trees. The ******* forest is burning, but those trees, you better watch out for them!

If all you see is Muslim Vs Christian, you'll never understand what is going on, consequently, you'll never stop what is going on. Go on. . . have your Holy War. Both sides seem bent on it.

Norman Bernstein
05-26-2017, 10:11 AM
95 Egyptian Copts killed by Islamic fundamentalists in Egypt: conservatives are OUTRAGED at Islamic terrorism.

300,000 Sudanese killed in South Sudan... none of whom were Christians. Conservatives: not a peep.

LeeG
05-26-2017, 10:12 AM
To advance their goal of a modern Islamic Caliphate, in which more Christians will suffer. I'm not sure how much influence the Coptic Christians in Egypt hold over the present government. It seems unlikely these attacks will do much to change things there, but it does fulfill the Islamic terrorists goal of killing infidels.



Your distractions did nothing to undermine Gengladoh on this topic.

Yes, Christians, Muslims and anyone else who doesn't buckle under to the regional flavor of militant Salafi jihadism. So far the attempt at a caliphate out of the ashes of Iraq and Syria is in retreat thanks to the
Shia militias in Iraq, the US/Western partners, Iran, Russia, etc. Hopefully we're burned out on regime changing other countries for awhile.

There's a ready market in the US for news about "Christians attacked by Muslim terrorists"

Like I said : Geng has a bad habit of characterizing a country from violent events. I like adding some other things.

TomF
05-26-2017, 10:16 AM
Egypt has long been a center for various types of Islamist extremism. There are, unsurprisingly, connections these days with ISIS, for instance, though a fairly extreme version of Islam has also been present in some Government circles for quite a while. While the Islamist government elected in 2011 was deposed in a 2013 coup, it's worth remembering that Anwar Sadat was assassinated in 1981 by Islamists (https://www.ft.com/content/14b4617c-13c1-11e7-b0c1-37e417ee6c76) within his own military. And Islamic extremism in Egypt has a far older history than that - Wiki is your friend (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th-century_radical_Islam_in_Egypt)here. This bit at the end of the Wiki page conclusion perhaps bears quoting.
Despite the large amounts of followers and supports these groups, they still remain a minority in Egyptian society.[73] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th-century_radical_Islam_in_Egypt#cite_note-73) Their beliefs and actions are contradictory to traditional interpretations of Islam, and for them to take power over the people would require a massive shift in the established belief system.[74] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th-century_radical_Islam_in_Egypt#cite_note-74) Also the approaches that these modern groups have attempted to carry out show brashness and naiveté in terms of effective strategies against the regime.[75] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th-century_radical_Islam_in_Egypt#cite_note-75) Finally, many Egyptians do not support the radicals’ claim that a simple shift in political power and the establishment of shari`a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shari%60a) as governmental law will instantly solve the country’s problems.[76] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th-century_radical_Islam_in_Egypt#cite_note-76) For some time, Coptic Christians (and also Jews) have suffered violence from these extremists; this week's killings follow the bombings of two Coptic churches on Easter Sunday - acts which led to an impromptu visit in early May by Pope Francis. It's really tough. Part of what makes it tough is that Egypt is a massively "young" country demographically (only 3% over age 65) and suffers from massive unemployment, especially among young people.

When a paltry 4% actually enter the workforce any year and those typically into jobs with little future, there's understandably one helluva lot of unrest - socio-economic stress like this leads to people being vulnerable to being led to believe any number of weird ideological perspectives, from religious to nationalist to populist, eh? (Sound familiar at all?)

We can frankly expect MORE such turbulence and violence in the world until we collectively make different choices about how to ensure that people have closer to equal life changes, equal access to opportunities, equal treatment by various organizations which wield power. It's what's making folks angry enough to do BREXIT, to elect populists and strongmen, and yeah, to tip into religious extremism. As I've opined before, very similar experiences and dynamics of exclusion (though from different contextual starting places) are what's always been what prompts rebellion, unrest and revolutionary movements.

LeeG
05-26-2017, 10:17 AM
That's it, keep a close eye on those trees. The ******* forest is burning, but those trees, you better watch out for them!

If all you see is Muslim Vs Christian, you'll never understand what is going on, consequently, you'll never stop what is going on. Go on. . . have your Holy War. Both sides seem bent on it.

Exactly. Define regional problems over there in our identities here.

leikec
05-26-2017, 10:22 AM
..........

LeeG
05-26-2017, 10:32 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Egypt

Since 2013 transition, more than 500 persons were killed in a new wave of terrorism.

Peerie Maa
05-26-2017, 10:52 AM
To advance their goal of a modern Islamic Caliphate, in which more Christians will suffer. I'm not sure how much influence the Coptic Christians in Egypt hold over the present government. It seems unlikely these attacks will do much to change things there, but it does fulfill the Islamic terrorists goal of killing infidels.


Those terrorists are not followers of Islam.


The Qur’an. Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted). 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

The Qur’an says, “There is no compulsion in religion. The right way has become distinct from error.” (-The Cow, 2:256). Note that this verse was revealed in Medina in 622 AD or after and was never abrogated by any other verse of the Quran. Islam’s holy book forbids coercing people into adopting any religion. They have to willingly choose it.

The Quran says, “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran chapter “The Cow,” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

The killing of innocent non-combatants is forbidden. According to Sunni tradition, ‘Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first Caliph, gave these instructions to his armies: “I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ” (Malik’s Muwatta’, “Kitab al-Jihad.”)

Terrorism or hirabah is forbidden in Islamic law, “The Spanish Maliki jurist Ibn `Abd al-Barr (d. 464/ 1070)) defines the agent of hiraba as ‘Anyone who disturbs free passage in the streets and renders them unsafe to travel, striving to spread corruption in the land by taking money, killing people or violating what God has made it unlawful to violate is guilty of hirabah . . .”

Sneak attacks are forbidden. Muslim commanders must give the enemy fair warning that war is imminent. The Prophet Muhammad at one point gave 4 months notice.

The Qur’an demands of believers that they exercise justice toward people even where they have reason to be angry with them: “And do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness.”[5:8]

The Qur’an assures Christians and Jews of paradise if they believe and do good works, and commends Christians as the best friends of Muslims. I wrote elsewhere, “Dangerous falsehoods are being promulgated to the American public. The Quran does not preach violence against Christians.
Quran 5:69 says (Arberry): “Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness–their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.”

Phillip Allen
05-26-2017, 11:01 AM
political garbage again?

LeeG
05-26-2017, 11:04 AM
political garbage again?

You are asking a question?

Phillip Allen
05-26-2017, 11:06 AM
You are asking a question?

look up 'question mark' in a dictionary

beernd
05-26-2017, 11:08 AM
I am surprised that the Dems have not blamed Trump.
No it's Obama's fault "BENGAHZI BENGAHSI" oh no, wait, it was Hillaries fault.
Sorry I got things mixed up Y:o

Paul Pless
05-26-2017, 11:12 AM
Dorky thread

LeeG
05-26-2017, 11:14 AM
Dorky thread

Doing my part

Gill
05-26-2017, 02:21 PM
Of course they are followers of Islam. Just not a variety of Islam that you like to recognize.

LeeG
05-26-2017, 02:30 PM
Of course they are followers of Islam. Just not a variety of Islam that you like to recognize.

Actually people who study the topic are by definition recognizing the "varieties" of Islam and the ideology of its adherents.

The US also recognizes the variety that buys $100billion in weapons that spreads an intolerant version of Islam and used ISIS as a proxy early in the Syrian civil war.

BrianW
05-26-2017, 04:16 PM
Those terrorists are not followers of Islam.

How is dare you assume their religion!

#triggered

CWSmith
05-26-2017, 04:17 PM
Dorky thread

Maybe, but the OP is distressing.

TomF
05-26-2017, 04:22 PM
That is so, Brian. But when white supremacists do execrable things while hollering about Jesus and wearing regalia with Christian symbols, it is rarely called "Christian extremist" terror by folks who take the position you have described.

Paul G.
05-26-2017, 04:23 PM
Heard how the christian US military murdered over 100 muslim civilians in Mosul the other day?

Steve McMahon
05-26-2017, 04:25 PM
Muslim Gunmen? I don't think that's a very accurate description.

leikec
05-26-2017, 05:08 PM
..........

Reynard38
05-26-2017, 05:30 PM
https://egyptianstreets.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/homocidemap.png

Whats up with Greenland?

Phillip Allen
05-26-2017, 05:32 PM
Whats up with Greenland?

more honest reporting than Egypt?

Hallam
05-26-2017, 05:38 PM
I am surprised that the Dems have not blamed Trump.

Nah blame the Poms

BrianW
05-26-2017, 09:16 PM
Heard how the christian US military murdered over 100 muslim civilians in Mosul the other day?

The US military is filled with members from many religious backgrounds.

Then there's this...


A US-led air raid in March against a building in the Iraqi city of Mosul killed at least 105 civilians, the Pentagon admitted on Thursday after concluding an investigation into the attack.According to the Pentagon's summary of the investigation, the March 17 strike on Mosul's al-Jadidah district targeted two snipers of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, also known as ISIS) group in the building who had engaged with Iraqi counterterrorism forces.
The Pentagon said, however, that the high civilian death toll was caused by a secondary explosion of munitions placed by ISIL fighters in the building, where civilians were also sheltering.

"There is no way the munition a US plane dropped March 17 in the Jadidah neighbourhood could have caused the extensive damage that killed 101 people in a house and four in a neighbouring house,"it said in a statement.

PeterSibley
05-26-2017, 09:38 PM
Not expressed ? Probably not understood.

Tom Montgomery
05-26-2017, 11:27 PM
... when white supremacists do execrable things while hollering about Jesus and wearing regalia with Christian symbols, it is rarely called "Christian extremist" terror....
Just so.

Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were not labeled "Christian extremists." But did they not both profess to be Christians? Or were they both professed atheists?

Gill
05-26-2017, 11:37 PM
But when white supremacists do execrable things while hollering about Jesus and wearing regalia with Christian symbols, it is rarely called "Christian extremist" terror by folks who take the position you have described.

When an act of terrorism happens these days, everyone knows the religion of the perpetrator before the suspect is identified. And it ain't Christian.

Breakaway
05-26-2017, 11:40 PM
Just so.

Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were not labeled "Christian extremists." But did they not both profess to be Christians? Or were they both professed atheists?



The question is whether they claimed to be acting on behalf of their religion, not which religion they subscribed to.

The terrorists referenced in this thread ascribed Islam to their act. That doesn't mean all muslims are terrorists. It just means that these terrorists claim to be working for Islam.

Kevin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Gill
05-26-2017, 11:41 PM
Heard how the christian US military murdered over 100 muslim civilians in Mosul the other day?

The U.S. military may be manned by mostly Christians but it is not acting in the name of Christ. Muslim terrorists believe they are performing an act of piety when then murder infidels.

Tom Montgomery
05-26-2017, 11:45 PM
When an act of terrorism happens these days, everyone knows the religion of the perpetrator before the suspect is identified. And it ain't Christian.
Izzatso?

http://www.krtv.com/story/35450407/suspect-in-fatal-shooting-of-deputy-shared-posts-of-patriotism-guns-and-bible-verses

You appear to be a newbie, Gill. A word to the wise: google is your friend. Learn to fact check before posting to the Bilge.
,,

Old Dryfoot
05-26-2017, 11:46 PM
The Westboro Baptist Church is to Christianity as ISIS is to Islam.

Phillip Allen
05-27-2017, 12:39 AM
The Westboro Baptist Church is to Christianity as ISIS is to Islam.

I got banned for pointing that out

SMARTINSEN
05-27-2017, 04:57 AM
When an act of terrorism happens these days, everyone knows the religion of the perpetrator before the suspect is identified. And it ain't Christian.

Here is another one for you, Gill:

http://katu.com/news/local/witnesses-say-triple-stabbing-aboard-max-train-may-have-been-racially-motivated

Do tell us what you think.

This is not to condone terrorism, or to deny that there is a problem with Islamic terrorism, but your narrative, as is genglandoh's (his is passive-aggressive which is even more frustrating), is deceitful and counter to achieving solutions to the problems.

PeterSibley
05-27-2017, 05:08 AM
Non Muslim terror. https://www.splcenter.org/20100126/terror-right

Peerie Maa
05-27-2017, 05:38 AM
Of course they are followers of Islam. Just not a variety of Islam that you like to recognize.

Well I suppose as a US citizen you are so used to republican lawmakers claiming to be Christian, when the obviously are not, that you are no longer able to understand the difference.

McMike
05-27-2017, 07:21 AM
Non Muslim terror. https://www.splcenter.org/20100126/terror-right

The American ISIS. There are two households that reside down the street from me that are part of it.

Phillip Allen
05-27-2017, 07:36 AM
Well I suppose as a US citizen you are so used to republican lawmakers claiming to be Christian, when the obviously are not, that you are no longer able to understand the difference.

wish you'd be less accusatory... it prevents dialog

Peerie Maa
05-27-2017, 07:39 AM
wish you'd be less accusatory... it prevents dialog

When Gill responds to my post #37 as he/she did, one has to wonder what else will cause the brain to be engaged.

Those injunctions quoted in #37 are a damned sight more clear than the Christian "love thy neighbour" instruction. Any one ignoring them is not a follower of true Islam.

Phillip Allen
05-27-2017, 07:40 AM
When Gill responds to my post #37 as he/she did, one has to wonder what else will cause the brain to be engaged.

well, I just think it gets us nowhere... we need to work on better communication

Garret
05-27-2017, 08:11 AM
well, I just think it gets us nowhere... we need to work on better communication

OK - a question for you: do you think people who work to make others lives harder are "Christian"? I don't believe Nick was being accusatory at all, simply stating an opinion that I agree with 100%. Those who proclaim their Christianity the loudest are usually not.

Romney is an example of a Christian on the right. I don't agree with a lot of the things he stands for, but I don't see him doing things to intentionally harm others (case in point his version of ObamaCare in Massachusetts). On the other hand, Ryan, Gingrich, McConnell, etc. seem to want to make others suffer.

Phillip Allen
05-27-2017, 09:10 AM
OK - a question for you: do you think people who work to make others lives harder are "Christian"? I don't believe Nick was being accusatory at all, simply stating an opinion that I agree with 100%. Those who proclaim their Christianity the loudest are usually not.

Romney is an example of a Christian on the right. I don't agree with a lot of the things he stands for, but I don't see him doing things to intentionally harm others (case in point his version of ObamaCare in Massachusetts). On the other hand, Ryan, Gingrich, McConnell, etc. seem to want to make others suffer.

a leading question and the very thing I was talking about... stop it and there will be less polarization

Lew Barrett
05-27-2017, 10:13 AM
a leading question and the very thing I was talking about... stop it and there will be less polarization

It's a request for your opinion stated as a question. On the other hand, your reply suggests an unwillingness to engage directly and frankly and appears evasive. It's actually a pretty broad inquiry that could be the subject of another thread.

When or where does religious fervor cross over the line and become the very opposite of spiritual right thinking? Or put another way, when does religion become a shield for the basest instincts we can summon?

Phillip Allen
05-27-2017, 10:20 AM
It's a request for your opinion stated as a question. On the other hand, your reply suggests an unwillingness to engage directly and frankly and appears evasive. It's actually a pretty broad inquiry that could be the subject of another thread.

When or where does religious fervor cross over the line and become the very opposite of spiritual right thinking? Or put another way, when does religion become a shield for the basest instincts we can summon?

to answer your last question... it begins very in its decent

Peerie Maa
05-27-2017, 10:27 AM
When or where does religious fervour cross over the line and become the very opposite of spiritual right thinking? When it is used as a way in to the minds of those ripe for manipulation by those with an agenda and the eloquence to sell it.

Or put another way, when does religion become a shield for the basest instincts we can summon?I don't think that it is ever a shield, some may use it as an excuse, but it is more of a smoke screen for the gullible.

P.S. "Fervour" takes a "u" between the "o" and the last "r". ;)

Breakaway
05-27-2017, 01:33 PM
There's no doubt that heinous acts are, and have been, committed in the name of a multitude of gods. I think, though, to consistently respond to terrorist acts committed by those invoking Islam with broad apology that, "other religions are invoked as well," is a deflection.

The fact is, many terrorists invoke Islam. That doesn't make Islam a, "religion of terror," but the sheer number of acts in which Islam is invoked ought to give any thinking person pause. There is something about Islam that many terrorists seem to identify with. Certainly, a consideration of what that connection might be should be part of any eventual solution to stopping these heinous acts. In fact, if we can unlock the " Islamic terrorist," key, perhaps we can than apply what is learned as part of the puzzle of stopping the Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jewish....etc terrorists.



Kevin

Peerie Maa
05-27-2017, 01:46 PM
There's no doubt that heinous acts are, and have been, committed in the name of a multitude of gods. I think, though, to consistently respond to terrorist acts committed by those invoking Islam with broad apology that, "other religions are invoked as well," is a deflection.

The fact is, many terrorists invoke Islam. That doesn't make Islam a, "religion of terror," but the sheer number of acts in which Islam is invoked ought to give any thinking person pause. There is something about Islam that many terrorists seem to identify with. Certainly, a consideration of what that connection might be should be part of any eventual solution to stopping these heinous acts. In fact, if we can unlock the " Islamic terrorist," key, perhaps we can than apply what is learned as part of the puzzle of stopping the Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jewish....etc terrorists.



Kevin

And in the history of terrorism often no religion/gods are invoked. Obsessing over religion prevents us from looking for the true reasons, and will therefore hamper our ability to stop it.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?223990-Terrorists-moral-judgment-probed-in-psychology-test

skaraborgcraft
05-27-2017, 02:32 PM
Trump signed a deal with Saudi Arabia worth 300 billion dollars and heralds it as a good deal and good for American jobs, Theresa May says things along the same line. Neither of them, or 99% of the worlds media point out the 10,000+ innocent men ,woman and children killed in Yemen by those weapons sold to Saudi Arabia, an inconvienient truth. Anyone who is unable to see a connection between killing innocent people and how terrorists come into being is not fit for office. Leaving your humanity at the door should not be a requirement for being a president or Prime Minister. Who are the real terrorists here?

Peerie Maa
05-27-2017, 02:57 PM
^ The first contract between the UK and Saudi was in 1965. The world was a different place then.
The current contract dates back to a memorandum of Agreement signed in 1985. If only we knew then what we know now.

SMARTINSEN
05-27-2017, 06:36 PM
Well, we know now, why do we perpetuate our mistake?

Phillip Allen
05-27-2017, 07:31 PM
There's no doubt that heinous acts are, and have been, committed in the name of a multitude of gods. I think, though, to consistently respond to terrorist acts committed by those invoking Islam with broad apology that, "other religions are invoked as well," is a deflection.

The fact is, many terrorists invoke Islam. That doesn't make Islam a, "religion of terror," but the sheer number of acts in which Islam is invoked ought to give any thinking person pause. There is something about Islam that many terrorists seem to identify with. Certainly, a consideration of what that connection might be should be part of any eventual solution to stopping these heinous acts. In fact, if we can unlock the " Islamic terrorist," key, perhaps we can than apply what is learned as part of the puzzle of stopping the Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jewish....etc terrorists.



Kevin

the operative words are "thinking person"... it gets annoying how much partisan politics here in the US get trotted out at every opportunity

skaraborgcraft
05-28-2017, 01:26 AM
^ The first contract between the UK and Saudi was in 1965. The world was a different place then.
The current contract dates back to a memorandum of Agreement signed in 1985. If only we knew then what we know now.

That would be an interesting contract to read, I find it hard to believe there would not be some clauses and exemptions, but once one "Western democracy" decides to go against UN, its down-hill thereafter.
Its just about the money. If the public managed to change import laws during those crazy "mahogany years" to protect trees, im sure the same could be done to protect human lives.....not so easy to do when political agendas limit what goes out in the news.

Peerie Maa
05-28-2017, 05:21 AM
^ What sort of clauses do you think were necessary in the world of 1965?
And what did the UN have to do with trade between two close allies?

skaraborgcraft
05-28-2017, 06:36 AM
^ What sort of clauses do you think were necessary in the world of 1965?
And what did the UN have to do with trade between two close allies?

Im not even sure my parents had met in 1965, so i cant answer the first...
Under UN law, supply of arms to a country fighting a civil war is a no no, i guess that is being circumvented by using Saudi as a proxy. Does not change the fact that US and UK arms are doing the majority of the killing inside Yemen, which is technically a civil war. Im not aware of Saudi Arabia announcing it is at war with Yemen. "Close Allie" is an odd one in iteself due to the support of terrorism that comes from SA. Saudis have only petro dollars, and unfortunately both the US and the UK are apparently more than happy to supply the means of slaughter for the right price, with full knowledge of the consequences to civilian population....... Boris the Bafoon has already made more of an idiot of himself trying to defend the sales.
Im just tired of all the sensless killing.......

Peerie Maa
05-28-2017, 07:10 AM
^ You might want to read the history of the Trucial States (http://www.hungerfordhistorical.org.uk/images/20150128_Tony_Cornick_-_Trucial_States_Talk.pdf)to get an historical insight into the area.

skaraborgcraft
05-29-2017, 04:42 AM
^ an interesting read, but it says our treaty ended in 1971. Is there an obligation to sell weapons to a regime that uses those weapons for mass civilian deaths?
The Pentagon has a policy...."A US airstrike targeting two Islamic State snipers resulted in at least 101 civilian deaths, in part due to “poor weather,” according to the Pentagon. Despite the huge loss of life, the Pentagon stated that it meets their standard for proportionality"...... so if we say there are 200,000 ISIS fighters, according to the Pentagons own guidelines, its ok to kill more than a million innocent civilians. All the time Joe Average thinks this is acceptable, nothing will change, we have means to communicate that never existed before, there is no excuse for any of it.

Peerie Maa
05-29-2017, 05:20 AM
^ an interesting read, but it says our treaty ended in 1971. Is there an obligation to sell weapons to a regime that uses those weapons for mass civilian deaths?
The Pentagon has a policy...."A US airstrike targeting two Islamic State snipers resulted in at least 101 civilian deaths, in part due to “poor weather,” according to the Pentagon. Despite the huge loss of life, the Pentagon stated that it meets their standard for proportionality"...... so if we say there are 200,000 ISIS fighters, according to the Pentagons own guidelines, its ok to kill more than a million innocent civilians. All the time Joe Average thinks this is acceptable, nothing will change, we have means to communicate that never existed before, there is no excuse for any of it.

Does the average US Joe even know about this? Seeing the discussions on gun threads on here, would they even give a toss?
As to the use of weapons contracted and purchased (tens) of years ago, all we have is diplomacy and political pressure.

skaraborgcraft
05-29-2017, 06:09 AM
Does the average US Joe even know about this? Seeing the discussions on gun threads on here, would they even give a toss?
As to the use of weapons contracted and purchased (tens) of years ago, all we have is diplomacy and political pressure.

Probably not (give a toss). On a brighter ,hopeful note, i have read that some members of congress, from both sides, are trying to block the 110 billion of arms sales to SA, due to the targeting of civilians. One may assume the Saudis are following the Pentagons own guidlines when it comes to " proportionality".

Garret
05-29-2017, 09:26 AM
It's a request for your opinion stated as a question. On the other hand, your reply suggests an unwillingness to engage directly and frankly and appears evasive. It's actually a pretty broad inquiry that could be the subject of another thread.

When or where does religious fervor cross over the line and become the very opposite of spiritual right thinking? Or put another way, when does religion become a shield for the basest instincts we can summon?

I bolded a bit. It was indeed a question to Phillip & I see he is avoiding it. I'll make a statement then & see if he'd like to refute it: Many of the current politicians who identify (some vociferously) as "Christian" are not, and in fact, are the antithesis of Christian.

Do people agree or disagree?

[ps: thanks for the help Lew :)]

TomF
05-29-2017, 09:28 AM
Back in the 80s there was a bumper sticker on that issue: "The 'Moral Majority' is neither."

Phillip Allen
05-29-2017, 10:29 AM
I bolded a bit. It was indeed a question to Phillip & I see he is avoiding it. I'll make a statement then & see if he'd like to refute it: Many of the current politicians who identify (some vociferously) as "Christian" are not, and in fact, are the antithesis of Christian.

Do people agree or disagree?

[ps: thanks for the help Lew :)]

"you will know them by their deeds"

TomF
05-29-2017, 10:56 AM
"you will know them by their deeds"So it is written. ;)

Lew Barrett
05-29-2017, 12:42 PM
Isis claims responsibility. Isis is an equal opportunity destroyer of worlds. They are just as happy to go after Kurdish Muslims or bomb Shia shrines as they are to decapitate Copts and Bahai practitioners. As soon as a crime is identified as ISIS inspired it is no longer a question of world wide Islam.

PeterSibley
05-29-2017, 06:23 PM
^ an interesting read, but it says our treaty ended in 1971. Is there an obligation to sell weapons to a regime that uses those weapons for mass civilian deaths?
The Pentagon has a policy...."A US airstrike targeting two Islamic State snipers resulted in at least 101 civilian deaths, in part due to “poor weather,” according to the Pentagon. Despite the huge loss of life, the Pentagon stated that it meets their standard for proportionality"...... so if we say there are 200,000 ISIS fighters, according to the Pentagons own guidelines, its ok to kill more than a million innocent civilians. All the time Joe Average thinks this is acceptable, nothing will change, we have means to communicate that never existed before, there is no excuse for any of it.

At that rate of proportionality, to kill 200,000 Daesh fighters, 10 million civilian deaths are acceptable to the US.

Garret
05-29-2017, 08:10 PM
"you will know them by their deeds"

Good. So - you don't then support any of them - right?

BrianW
05-29-2017, 10:12 PM
Good. So - you don't then support any of them - right?

I really don't understand this line of questioning. Do you want Phillip to review all 535 members if Congress, plus a few select governors, and file a report on each one of them?

TomF was asking me "What would it take for me to not support something Trump did?" How the fart am I supposed to come up with a list of possible actions like that?

Sometimes you guys dig way too hard to find a crack in the armor. Let it go man...

Phillip Allen
05-29-2017, 11:09 PM
Good. So - you don't then support any of them - right?

don't recognize the quote? it has a direct application to Christianity

Phillip Allen
05-29-2017, 11:12 PM
now good night... take your time and you can find it... it's in the bible. get a concordance... that's like a google for the Bible... google, you know, that thing you guys are constantly telling me to do :)

skaraborgcraft
05-30-2017, 02:40 AM
At that rate of proportionality, to kill 200,000 Daesh fighters, 10 million civilian deaths are acceptable to the US.

I must of got my decimal point in the wrong place. And what do our American fellows think of this equation? Any one have a problem with this?

Garret
05-30-2017, 05:15 AM
don't recognize the quote? it has a direct application to Christianity

Of course I recognize it.

Garret
05-30-2017, 05:19 AM
I really don't understand this line of questioning. Do you want Phillip to review all 535 members if Congress, plus a few select governors, and file a report on each one of them?

TomF was asking me "What would it take for me to not support something Trump did?" How the fart am I supposed to come up with a list of possible actions like that?

Sometimes you guys dig way too hard to find a crack in the armor. Let it go man...

Brian - I'm not looking for a review of every member of congress! What I meant (& didn't say well) is that in an election, I hope you vote against the "pseudo-Christian". That's what I meant by "not supporting them". Well - writing letters to the ones from other states might help too.

TomF
05-30-2017, 05:43 AM
...did?" How the fart am I supposed to come up with a list of possible actions like that?...Brian, I was looking to see where you'd draw a line in the sand in terms of principles, not in terms of specific "he did this" or "he didn't do that" examples.

For instance, nobody seems to have any worry that Trump's lied about everything from the size of his "historic" electoral college win, to the millions of illegal votes which robbed him of the popular vote, to Obama ordering wiretaps of the Trump Tower, to the reason Comey was fired, to etc. etc. Yet lying about consensual oral sex was the criterion for impeaching Bill Clinton.

It has been euphemistically said all along that Trump is a "unique" figure. What that means, is that verifiable and obvious lies and simply horrifying personal character faults which have provoked bipartisan howling and condemnation ... hasn't dented Trump's charm with his support base. But he hasn't yet lied to someone like a Special Counsel. Now, if it occurs that Trump lies to the Special Counsel, whether about something important (Nixonian) or something trivial (like Clinton's consensual oral sex), will you hold him to the same standard of "honour" that you'd require of any other President?

Frankly, Brian, I'm really surprised that you haven't yet even seemed troubled by the Flynn/Comey/Russia stuff, considering your personal leanings towards National Security. At least, if you're at all troubled by the Intel community's unanimous expression of concern, it sure hasn't ever crossed the pages here in any noticeable way. I would have thought that their concerns would have already been a tripwire for you in terms of your attitude of general support, because it is really pretty obvious that their worries (and the worries of their international Intel agency counterparts) aren't dismissible as partisanship.

LeeG
05-30-2017, 11:37 AM
I must of got my decimal point in the wrong place. And what do our American fellows think of this equation? Any one have a problem with this?

This American fellow thinks our militarized foreign and counter terrorism policies are a tragic error with no moral foundation. A few thousand civilians are killed on 9/11 by a few dozen Al Qaeda individuals so we declare war on a failed state and a failing state resulting in over half a million deaths and millions of refugees providing Al Qaeda and its derivatives a vastly larger territory and resources from which to operate.

I doubt a majority of Americans see a problem with killing people via view screens. With all that has transpired we still elect politicians who are "strong on defense".