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Osborne Russell
05-05-2017, 08:41 PM
Officer Oliver fires his rifle into a car of teenagers leaving a party.


Jordan is the youngest of the 333 people shot and killed by police so far in 2017, according to a Washington Post database tracking such shootings.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/05/05/texas-officer-who-killed-black-teenager-leaving-party-is-charged-with-murder/?utm_term=.3f901d2975cd


Initially, police claimed that the vehicle had been backing up toward officers in "an aggressive manner," but later said the officers' account of what happened was inaccurate and the car had actually been driving away. Police came to that conclusion after reviewing dashcam footage.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/murder-charge-in-jordan-edwards-shooting?utm_term=.pgODmQw3z#.wfQnRgqxr


[Officer]Oliver served in the Army and was on active duty from 2004 to 2010, according to the Department of Defense. He served at least one tour in Iraq.

[Officer Oliver's] personnel records also included periodic evaluations that noted at least one instance when Oliver was reprimanded for being "disrespectful to a civilian on a call." That evaluation, dated Jan. 27, 2017, called the reprimand an isolated incident and urged Oliver to be mindful of his leadership role in the department.

The complaint from the prosecutor's office said the office had a hard time getting Oliver to attend the trial, he was angry he had to be there, he used vulgar language that caused an assistant district attorney to send a female intern out of the room, and he used profanity during his testimony.

"In an email from one of the prosecutors he states you were a 'scary person to have in our workroom,'" then-Balch Springs Police Chief Ed Morris wrote in the suspension findings.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dallas/2017/05/02/balch-springs-police-fires-officer-fatally-shot-15-year-old-rifle


Generation Kill


[in response to a child letter]

Corporal Josh Ray Person: Dear Frederick, thank you for your nice letter, but I am actually a US Marine who was born to kill whereas clearly you have mistaken me for some sort of wine-sipping Communist ****-suck. And although peace probably appeals to tree-loving bisexuals like you and your parents, I happen to be a death-dealing, blood-crazed warrior who wakes up every day just hoping for the chance to dismember my enemies and defile their civilizations. Peace sucks a hairy ***hole, Freddy. War is the mother******* answer.

http://dewidrop.blogspot.com/2009/09/generation-kill-quotes.html

oznabrag
05-05-2017, 08:48 PM
Officer Bloodbath has been arrested and charged with murder.

skuthorp
05-06-2017, 05:13 AM
Just doing what the Marines, at great expense and at an impressionable age, trained him to do.
Then they put him in a different uniform, armed him with similar weapons, put him out into a seemingly similar environment and he did what he was trained to do. PTSD likely.
Maybe he never should have been in the Marines in the first place, psychologically unsuitable. Certainly so to be a police officer.

Peerie Maa
05-06-2017, 05:20 AM
Just doing what the Marines, at great expense and at an impressionable age, trained him to do.
Then they put him in a different uniform, armed him with similar weapons, put him out into a seemingly similar environment and he did what he was trained to do. PTSD likely.
Maybe he never should have been in the Marines in the first place, psychologically unsuitable. Certainly so to be a police officer.

Are you really suggesting that the US Marines are trained to shoot at a whim with no thought as to what they are shooting at?

Remarkable.

skuthorp
05-06-2017, 05:31 AM
Priorities of a civilian Police Officer on duty are necessarily, or should be, very different to those of a Marine on active service.

Re the letter quoted, am I to presume this person wrote that letter?

Reynard38
05-06-2017, 08:21 AM
He saw his fellow citizens as enemy combatants, and acted accordingly. The outcome is no surprise at all.

CWSmith
05-06-2017, 08:53 AM
I have said it before - it is a big mistake to give veterans of war preferential treatment in hiring as police officers.

I respect our veterans, but they should not be placed back into stressful life-and-death situations. If only a small percent still suffer from their war experience, it remains a risk.

oznabrag
05-06-2017, 08:59 AM
Just doing what the Marines, at great expense and at an impressionable age, trained him to do.
Then they put him in a different uniform, armed him with similar weapons, put him out into a seemingly similar environment and he did what he was trained to do. PTSD likely.
Maybe he never should have been in the Marines in the first place, psychologically unsuitable. Certainly so to be a police officer.


Are you really suggesting that the US Marines are trained to shoot at a whim with no thought as to what they are shooting at?

Remarkable.


Priorities of a civilian Police Officer on duty are necessarily, or should be, very different to those of a Marine on active service.

Re the letter quoted, am I to presume this person wrote that letter?


He saw his fellow citizens as enemy combatants, and acted accordingly. The outcome is no surprise at all.

Actually, the OP is sort of confusing.

The quotes are from two different sources.

The first three are directly related to the murderous officer who killed this 15-year-old kid, Officer Oliver, who served in the US Army, and the fourth and final quote is from Generation Kill. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Kill)

McMike
05-06-2017, 08:59 AM
I have said it before - it is a big mistake to give veterans of war preferential treatment in hiring as police officers.

I respect our veterans, but they should not be placed back into stressful life-and-death situations. If only a small percent still suffer from their war experience, it remains a risk.

I agree. There is too much training and experiential overlap from a war-zone to a public street at home, where one mindset will override the other, sometimes the wrong one being overridden.

Osborne Russell
05-06-2017, 09:29 AM
Priorities of a civilian Police Officer on duty are necessarily, or should be, very different to those of a Marine on active service.

Re the letter quoted, am I to presume this person wrote that letter?

The letter was from a school kid, one of those class project deals. Write a serviceman. So this soldier gets a letter from an unknown child. The quote is his response after reading it aloud to his fellow servicemen.

Warning, language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC40IdWRscA

Osborne Russell
05-06-2017, 09:30 AM
I agree. There is too much training and experiential overlap from a war-zone to a public street at home, where one mindset will override the other, sometimes the wrong one being overridden.

The war doesn't come home to just the police.

Canoeyawl
05-06-2017, 09:36 AM
It is a big mistake to call these wars "Police actions"

They need to quit the PC propaganda and tell the truth. We are fighting wars...

George Jung
05-06-2017, 09:42 AM
No- but arming them and putting them in a police force is perhaps a problem? Hard to believe, but maybe de-escalation is a better approach.

McMike
05-06-2017, 09:49 AM
The war doesn't come home to just the police.

I feel that should be understood given that acknowledging one would have to acknowledge the other. I'm of the mind that we should study the idea that soldiers returning home from combat should not own firearms for five years, it seems, more for their safety than the rest of us.

. . . or were you suggesting domestic violence, which I haven't heard is a big problem; have you?

Canoeyawl
05-06-2017, 10:03 AM
Rage is (almost) always a byproduct of being trained to kill people. It is deliberately cultivated. With some it seems to last a lifetime, with others maybe five or ten years with only occasional outbursts.

This behavior is not anything new, what is new is the belief that police need to be warriors. Andy of Mayberry is no longer the M.O.
It was probably the same after the Punic wars and the populace likely kept a wary distance from returned "warriors"

sharpiefan
05-06-2017, 10:15 AM
Instead of turning the combat vets into second-class citizens, how about addressing their problems? Sure, it's cheaper to disarm them and bar them from certain jobs, but that doesn't repair the mental damage they've suffered as a result of their service. I'm not a shrink, so I don't have the technical lingo, but I think combat vets should have access to a deprogramming process to ease their return civilian life. Desensitize them to the triggers upon which their lives depend in a combat zone, help them rediscover and adapt to life back in the world.

McMike
05-06-2017, 10:22 AM
Instead of turning the combat vets into second-class citizens, how about addressing their problems? Sure, it's cheaper to disarm them and bar them from certain jobs, but that doesn't repair the mental damage they've suffered as a result of their service. I'm not a shrink, so I don't have the technical lingo, but I think combat vets should have access to a deprogramming process to ease their return civilian life. Desensitize them to the triggers upon which their lives depend in a combat zone, help them rediscover and adapt to life back in the world.

I actually think this goes without saying . . . but then I think of how those in government choose to go to war without allocating money and addressing the in-tangible costs of such wars. Do you not think, in the vein that you're describing, that a soft denial of gun ownership for five years would be a good buffer, if, obviously, we treat them and heal them to the utmost of our ability as a society and a country?

Canoeyawl
05-06-2017, 10:26 AM
Instead of turning the combat vets into second-class citizens, how about addressing their problems? Sure, it's cheaper to disarm them and bar them from certain jobs, but that doesn't repair the mental damage they've suffered as a result of their service. I'm not a shrink, so I don't have the technical lingo, but I think combat vets should have access to a deprogramming process to ease their return civilian life. Desensitize them to the triggers upon which their lives depend in a combat zone, help them rediscover and adapt to life back in the world.

This would indicate complicity and liability. It is never going to happen.

McMike
05-06-2017, 10:39 AM
This would indicate complicity and liability. It is never going to happen.

I wonder, a tangent: Why do we allow this? It's supposed to be our government and aside from the overall debate of the need for war, if we're going to engage in it, we should damn well see all aspects of it's result through. . .

sharpiefan
05-06-2017, 11:11 AM
I actually think this goes without saying . . . but then I think of how those in government choose to go to war without allocating money and addressing the in-tangible costs of such wars. Do you not think, in the vein that you're describing, that a soft denial of gun ownership for five years would be a good buffer, if, obviously, we treat them and heal them to the utmost of our ability as a society and a country?

I understand what you mean - a period of 'probation', with no incidents of violence by the vet, would entitle him to full citizen's rights. I'm guessing it would take a Congressional mandate to get the Veteran's Administration to set up a truly functional program, not a Potemkin Village approach such as the TSA thugs providing security theater at the airports.

sandtown
05-06-2017, 12:24 PM
This will give you an idea of the magnitude of the mental health problems facing veterans . .

https://www.juancole.com/2015/09/bowe-bergdahl-psychology.html (I'm the author)

The Veterans Administration has done much research on PTSD, and they have found, among many other things, that troops who
"do harm" especially to civilians, have PTSD rates that are off the charts. Other vets have rates no different than non-vets.

The VA has also done a lot with therapy for ptsd, though much more is needed.

Veterans For Peace

Osborne Russell
05-06-2017, 05:13 PM
I feel that should be understood given that acknowledging one would have to acknowledge the other. I'm of the mind that we should study the idea that soldiers returning home from combat should not own firearms for five years, it seems, more for their safety than the rest of us.

Too broad.


. . . or were you suggesting domestic violence, which I haven't heard is a big problem; have you?

Yes, I have heard. It's no more than you would expect. Who are the first and most common victims? Those closest; who are the last to report it, in ordinary cases.

Osborne Russell
05-06-2017, 05:15 PM
Rage is (almost) always a byproduct of being trained to kill people. It is deliberately cultivated.

I would say, the product, not a byproduct. Indeed the point of the training is to bring you to that emotional state in opposition to all previous formative influences.

Hence the alienation on re-entry.

Canoeyawl
05-06-2017, 06:02 PM
I would say, the product, not a byproduct. Indeed the point of the training is to bring you to that emotional state in opposition to all previous formative influences.

Hence the alienation on re-entry.

I think the Product is dead people...

PeterSibley
05-06-2017, 06:56 PM
The price of endless war.

oznabrag
05-06-2017, 09:33 PM
I think the Product is dead people...

Thus rage is not the recipe.

The Marine with the outrageous letter to that kid was not enraged.

He is highly trained to survive in an environment where rage may actually be useful from time to time, but mostly serves to use up lots of energy, and cloud the judgement.


There may have been a time when rage was a more generally useful quality in a close combat environment, but it's pretty clear that between Browning and Kalashnikov, rage is a less relevant asset than in earlier times.


The Canon should include Colt, of course.



. . . and Winchester.

Canoeyawl
05-07-2017, 12:29 AM
I meant that rage as a byproduct of war is carried home with the soldiers. Men generally are not good at expressing anguish. That is self-perceived as a sign of weakness.
Not all of them, but many. I clearly saw the effects of "ptsd" in WW2 veterans all through my grade school years in the 1950's. Most often manifested as rage against wives and children, with the occasional suicide by shotgun all hidden in the relative isolation of the home. It was always there but never spoken of. I also saw some of the effects of WWI as mentally damaged and physically crippled veterans dressed in rags, twitching, stuttering, and mumbling to themselves while selling poppies from a tray on the trolleys of Boston before the "redevelopment". After which they seemed to dissapear. I asked my mother "What is wrong with that man." she replied "Shell shocked"... which was 10 more years before I really began to understand.
However it works, these men seem ill suited as public servants.

skuthorp
05-07-2017, 05:47 AM
On the subject of service' and the consequences of Donald's penchant for adventures.......................

"The White House announced in a statement this week that Trump would nominate Don Benton to lead the Selective Service System, a small federal agency whose chief responsibility is registering men between the ages of 18 and 25 for the unlikely event of a military draft."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/15/don-benton-trump-administration-selective-service-draft

oznabrag
05-07-2017, 09:48 AM
I meant that rage as a byproduct of war is carried home with the soldiers. Men generally are not good at expressing anguish. That is self-perceived as a sign of weakness.
Not all of them, but many. I clearly saw the effects of "ptsd" in WW2 veterans all through my grade school years in the 1950's. Most often manifested as rage against wives and children, with the occasional suicide by shotgun all hidden in the relative isolation of the home. It was always there but never spoken of. I also saw some of the effects of WWI as mentally damaged and physically crippled veterans dressed in rags, twitching, stuttering, and mumbling to themselves while selling poppies from a tray on the trolleys of Boston before the "redevelopment". After which they seemed to dissapear. I asked my mother "What is wrong with that man." she replied "Shell shocked"... which was 10 more years before I really began to understand.
However it works, these men seem ill suited as public servants.

My apologies for the misunderstanding, Mister Jake. Osborne brought the subject of rage into the conversation, and I was trying to address his misperception through your response.

A convoluted path, to be sure, and clearly a failed strategy.

I certainly do agree with you that war shatters some men. It may be that those it does NOT shatter are ill-suited to public service for a different set of reasons.


Tragedy all around.

David G
05-07-2017, 10:00 AM
The war doesn't come home to just the police.

Indeed.

War always comes home. One of the impacts of the push toward laissez-faire is the loosening of the reins on the corporate urge to turn war into an industry. The result has been 'perpetual war'. One of the fallouts from that is a steady stream of veterans attempting to reintegrate after experiencing violence in morally ambiguous circumstances. It messes up a certain proportion. Some more, some less, but lots of folks affected. More of the dysfunction that Acton warned us about.

Rum_Pirate
05-07-2017, 10:05 AM
From OP.


[Officer Oliver's] personnel records also included periodic evaluations that noted at least one instance when Oliver was reprimanded for being "disrespectful to a civilian on a call." That evaluation, dated Jan. 27, 2017, called the reprimand an isolated incident and urged Oliver to be mindful of his leadership role in the department.

How many times do people get charged/reprimanded from being "disrespectful to a police officer an a call"

Osborne Russell
05-07-2017, 12:09 PM
How many times do people get charged/reprimanded from being "disrespectful to a police officer an a call"

You're doing well not to be shot and killed.

Osborne Russell
05-07-2017, 12:10 PM
Indeed.

War always comes home. One of the impacts of the push toward laissez-faire is the loosening of the reins on the corporate urge to turn war into an industry. The result has been 'perpetual war'. One of the fallouts from that is a steady stream of veterans attempting to reintegrate after experiencing violence in morally ambiguous circumstances. It messes up a certain proportion. Some more, some less, but lots of folks affected. More of the dysfunction that Acton warned us about.

The Republicans stand ready to help with the moral ambiguity.