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amish rob
05-02-2017, 09:59 AM
I really don't know where to start this. Or where to go once it's begun.

Here's what sparked the whole idea:

We were at my friend's folk's house the other day for dinner, because he was in town. This is a home I spent a goodly portion of my youth visiting.
We were goofing around out front, and I noticed I could not jump up and touch a sign I once could. After a few minutes of joking about my age catching up to me, I finally touched the sign, but it was REALLY hard.

Then, it hit me. I jump off the "wrong" leg, now.

I have always jumped off my right leg, see. My body is "wired" that way. That is the default, "automatic" response. I think "jump" and the actions happen.

Except, the wires are broken in my back. The brain sends the signal to jump, and the body tries, short circuits, and sends a message back to the brain that "jump" doesn't work. That means I need to use a lot of brain to jump, now, relative to before. I can sense it, too. I really have to think hard to jump. And I feel awkward about it.

A few things I have read in the last few years seem to indicate the muscle memory actually resides in the muscle. Sort of. The fascia is most likely the place where muscle memory resides, so it isn't really the muscle itself. The fascia is part of the nervous system, and may even be the remnants of a rudimentary brain.

This makes sense to me. The routine tasks need to be managed with as little memory as possible, to use a computer analogy, to free up our brain for thinking. What better place to keep the instructions than at the source? :)

If this fascia is really the part of us that controls the "muscle memory", that means it must be semi-separate, yet still connected time brain, right? I wonder, then, does our mind reside in the body part, the brain part, or both?

Perhaps we should think in terms of "body brain" and "head brain"?

Anyway. This ain't a lecture, or even a post with a point. Simply a place to start a discussion.
No links, I know. Sorry. :)

Peace,
Left Foot Lofter (Now)

David G
05-02-2017, 10:07 AM
I think most of us just blithely rely upon it, but are seldom confronted with its importance. Ageing plays a role, of course. And so does where on the spectrum of active/sedentary you fall. That's where I personally noticed it. Cancer treatments left me with barely the energy to make it to the bathroom. Once recovery began, and I stopped losing weight... I got fat. Vicious circle. And I have discovered that the muscle memory requires the occasional bit of tune-up and repetition to stay active/sharp.

oznabrag
05-02-2017, 10:10 AM
Not really 'memory', but there is a growing body of evidence to suggest that a woman's body decides to get pregnant despite what her brain may want.

VERY interesting stuff.

Then, of course, there's Miracle Mike, the headless chicken!

:d

Canoeyawl
05-02-2017, 10:16 AM
Not really 'memory', but there is a growing body of evidence to suggest that a woman's body decides to get pregnant despite what her brain may want.

VERY interesting stuff.

Then, of course, there's Miracle Mike, the headless chicken!

:d

Leave Pence out of this...

Joe (SoCal)
05-02-2017, 10:32 AM
Then, of course, there's Miracle Mike, the headless chicken!

:d

Heard that story on the NPR podcast, fascinating.

amish rob
05-02-2017, 10:35 AM
You know cockroaches can live with no head, right? They die because they can't eat without a head, but they keep right on roaching.

Peace,
Robert

ron ll
05-02-2017, 10:42 AM
Don't know the story about Miracle Mike, but as kids my brother and I were occasionally tasked with beheading a chicken for dinner. If we just did it on the stump with an axe, the chicken would run around the yard squirting blood everywhere. The problem was solved by hypnotizing the chicken first. That was done by laying a straight white string across the stump, putting the live chicken's feet one on each side of the string, then pushing her beak down to the string and holding it for a few seconds. Then you could let go of her and she wouldn't move, either before or after the axe.

amish rob
05-02-2017, 10:51 AM
Don't know the story about Miracle Mike, but as kids my brother and I were occasionally tasked with beheading a chicken for dinner. If we just did it on the stump with an axe, the chicken would run around the yard squirting blood everywhere. The problem was solved by hypnotizing the chicken first. That was done by laying a straight white string across the stump, putting the live chicken's feet one on each side of the string, then pushing her beak down to the string and holding it for a few seconds. Then you could let go of her and she wouldn't move, either before or after the axe.
My uncle is fixing to "recycle" and old hen. I'm going to have him try this.

I had stump duty as a child. I used a machete. My Auntie would just walk over to the chickens, pick one up by the head, and just snap its neck.
I never, ever back talked her. Even after I learned the trick. :)

Peace,
Robert

TomF
05-02-2017, 11:03 AM
Last week the older lad and I began cross-training some Judo to go along with our Karate. That first night, they taught us a very basic version of the Tai Otoshi throw - hold your partner's L lapel with your R hand, the sleeve of his R arm under his elbow with your L hand, do the footwork to turn around so your back is against him, pull his sleeve while pushing his lapel and he'll trip over the R leg you obligingly left in his path. Cool.

It's good to feel like an utter noob again, to realize how little you know about stuff.

Back in Karate class last night, we were doing some 2-person drills responding to a series of punches from your partner. Respond to 3 punches in a pre-arranged pattern, but respond to 2 final punches using your imagination. The lad was excited as we drove home together - he said to me that he'd experimented with using Tai Otoshi to deal with the last 2 punches.

The lad discovered that there's no meaningful difference above the waist between doing a Soto Uke karate "block" and a Tai Otoshi judo "throw." The footwork was different, but otherwise? For one, you're standing too far away from the guy to hang on; for the other, you're closer and have a good grip with both hands.

Period.

So having made that discovery, the lad simply adjusted his distance, held on, and stepped into the right position to throw. Nothing above his waist knew that he wasn't doing a very basic ho-hum block, like 1000s of times before. Looking at a 1-arm shoulder throw (Seoi Nage), the same's true. Different footwork, different set-up to shift the opponent's weight, and a different fulcrum for the actual throw ... but almost identical arm and hip placement/motions to that basic karate "block."

I was interested to see on YouTube that one of the standard "un-weighting" motions for a Seoi Nage setup looked a whole lot like ... uhm ... like the "useless" way karate guys practice how to punch someone's midsection. Punch forward with L arm, while retracting the R fist to your own hip with equal force. Boxers or other strikers tell you that you've wasted half the force of your punch with that rotation, and left yourself wide open for a strike. Ahem.

The Seoi Nage setup did exactly that motion though, while holding the guy's sleeve in the "punching" fist (you intentionally "miss" beside his ribs) and pulling his lapel down to your hip with your retracting R-fist. Made a beautiful opening to slide your R arm and body into for the shoulder throw. Which, btw, from the waist up is just that soto uke karate "block" again - the one we teach to white belts.

So I'm looking forward to discovering just how deep that muscle memory or fascia memory goes. We're doing this excursion into Judo because a whole lot of traditional Karate is trained as solo kata, without a resisting opponent. You don't keep many training partners if in sparring or 2-person drills, you break their knees with side-kicks even 5% of the time. But a whole lot of the motions in solo kata are, as the lad and I are just beginning to discover, incredibly useful all-purpose motions if you're at this range, at that range, moving your feet this way, that way. I'm looking forward to finding out how well some of the sequences we've trained in kata translate in judo sparring if I adjust what my limbs are doing to take out "strikes" and just hold onto the guy while moving my limbs and weight around.

oznabrag
05-02-2017, 11:13 AM
Don't know the story about Miracle Mike, but as kids my brother and I were occasionally tasked with beheading a chicken for dinner. If we just did it on the stump with an axe, the chicken would run around the yard squirting blood everywhere. The problem was solved by hypnotizing the chicken first. That was done by laying a straight white string across the stump, putting the live chicken's feet one on each side of the string, then pushing her beak down to the string and holding it for a few seconds. Then you could let go of her and she wouldn't move, either before or after the axe.

Miracle Mike the Headless Chicken got beheaded for dinner one fine afternoon, and lived another 18 months until he choked to death on a kernel of corn.

True story.

Google it!

Paul Pless
05-02-2017, 11:16 AM
something tells me this thread is 'exceeding' the originating poster's expectations

amish rob
05-02-2017, 11:21 AM
Last week the older lad and I began cross-training some Judo to go along with our Karate. That first night, they taught us a very basic version of the Tai Otoshi throw - hold your partner's L lapel with your R hand, the sleeve of his R arm under his elbow with your L hand, do the footwork to turn around so your back is against him, pull his sleeve while pushing his lapel and he'll trip over the R leg you obligingly left in his path. Cool.

It's good to feel like an utter noob again, to realize how little you know about stuff.

Back in Karate class last night, we were doing some 2-person drills responding to a series of punches from your partner. Respond to 3 punches in a pre-arranged pattern, but respond to 2 final punches using your imagination. The lad was excited as we drove home together - he said to me that he'd experimented with using Tai Otoshi to deal with the last 2 punches.

The lad discovered that there's no meaningful difference above the waist between doing a Soto Uke karate "block" and a Tai Otoshi judo "throw." The footwork was different, but otherwise? For one, you're standing too far away from the guy to hang on; for the other, you're closer and have a good grip with both hands.

Period.

So having made that discovery, the lad simply adjusted his distance, held on, and stepped into the right position to throw. Nothing above his waist knew that he wasn't doing a very basic ho-hum block, like 1000s of times before. Looking at a 1-arm shoulder throw (Seoi Nage), the same's true. Different footwork, different set-up to shift the opponent's weight, and a different fulcrum for the actual throw ... but almost identical arm and hip placement/motions to that basic karate "block."

I was interested to see on YouTube that one of the standard "un-weighting" motions for a Seoi Nage setup looked a whole lot like ... uhm ... like the "useless" way karate guys practice how to punch someone's midsection. Punch forward with L arm, while retracting the R fist to your own hip with equal force. Boxers or other strikers tell you that you've wasted half the force of your punch with that rotation, and left yourself wide open for a strike. Ahem.

The Seoi Nage setup did exactly that motion though, while holding the guy's sleeve in the "punching" fist (you intentionally "miss" beside his ribs) and pulling his lapel down to your hip with your retracting R-fist. Made a beautiful opening to slide your R arm and body into for the shoulder throw. Which, btw, from the waist up is just that soto uke karate "block" again - the one we teach to white belts.

So I'm looking forward to discovering just how deep that muscle memory or fascia memory goes. We're doing this excursion into Judo because a whole lot of traditional Karate is trained as solo kata, without a resisting opponent. You don't keep many training partners if in sparring or 2-person drills, you break their knees with side-kicks even 5% of the time. But a whole lot of the motions in solo kata are, as the lad and I are just beginning to discover, incredibly useful all-purpose motions if you're at this range, at that range, moving your feet this way, that way. I'm looking forward to finding out how well some of the sequences we've trained in kata translate in judo sparring if I adjust what my limbs are doing to take out "strikes" and just hold onto the guy while moving my limbs and weight around.

Haha. I went from boxing, to Kung Fu, to Jiu Jitsu, but yeah. Same same, eh?

Pay attention, if you will, to the transition from thinking to unthinking Judo moves. I wonder if you'll notice a change over time?

Peace,
Robert

ron ll
05-02-2017, 11:22 AM
something tells me this thread is 'exceeding' the originating poster's expectations

Okay, then back to muscle memory. First human head transplant scheduled for December, 2017.
https://edgylabs.com/2017/04/01/head-transplant-canavero/

Wonder what kind of muscle memory that dude will have.

delecta
05-02-2017, 11:25 AM
I'm shocked that there are 11 posts and no mention of Trump in a derogatory way.

amish rob
05-02-2017, 11:27 AM
something tells me this thread is 'exceeding' the originating poster's expectations

Actually, I'm shocked there hasn't been a fit nor a barb slung, yet. :D

That's not nice. I shouldn't be like that. I just wanted to start a thread about something sorta serious. It could wend its way around to balloon filled sports cars, for all I care.

Peace,
Robert

oznabrag
05-02-2017, 11:30 AM
something tells me this thread is 'exceeding' the originating poster's expectations

Actually, Rob and I talked about this by PM.

The underlying theory-of-the-day is that there is a 'body-brain' that exists semi-independently/cooperatively with the Big Brain.

The body-brain seems to be decentralized, yet acting in concert with the Big Brain, which is home to the 'mind'.


Have I got this somewhere close to right, Rob?

Joe (SoCal)
05-02-2017, 11:31 AM
As I approach my 53rd year I find that it takes me a bit longer to lose those 10 lbs I put on over winter. Usually by the beginning of May I'm ripped and ready for summer activities, cycling, sailing hiking, swimming.

This year with moving and growing the business it's been a little harder to get in peak shape. For years I would do 100 ( in a row ) push ups and 100 sit-ups and 50 dips every day. Combined with gym and other activities. I will say if I put a little motivation into it my body still responds fairly fast, I always referred to that as muscle memory.

Funny I just checked my Facebook Page just now and it had this memory from 7 years ago TODAY. I need to get back into this shape again.

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/29063_1378118166452_7074743_n.jpg?oh=577b4efedadac fe189822bdb3df75649&oe=59821C7E

Might be time to get off the WBF and hit the gym.

CK 17
05-02-2017, 11:39 AM
Playing music uses a lot of muscle memory. I always endeavor to memorize any song I want to play. I hate reading music. Playing one song, while thinking about the next song (or anything else for that matter) probably takes advantage of muscle memory.

TomF
05-02-2017, 11:41 AM
Haha. I went from boxing, to Kung Fu, to Jiu Jitsu, but yeah. Same same, eh?

Pay attention, if you will, to the transition from thinking to unthinking Judo moves. I wonder if you'll notice a change over time?

Peace,
RobertI fully expect that the change from thinking to unthinking movement will happen faster. For one thing, my body's already learned some stuff, and will be itching to push my brain out of the way sooner. For another, while holding onto a person, you receive a constant dump of information about what the person's body is doing - where their weight's located, what the leverage points are - we're all quite similarly shaped bipedal stick-figures wrapped in meat, after all.

Rory Miller has people in his seminars learn to fight blindfolded; eye-dependent beings that we are, people are amazed that they can do it. But Miller says that touch is a lot faster than sight, because the information doesn't have to pass through any interpretive filters before it gets to your own muscles and tendons. And pretty soon people start to react not to the opponent's strikes or throws ... but to the subtle preparation motions and weight shifts before those things happen. You're into the counter before they've thrown the technique, because you're not actually responding to the technique.

That's what I'm looking forward to. Gonna be fun.

amish rob
05-02-2017, 11:42 AM
Actually, Rob and I talked about this by PM.

The underlying theory-of-the-day is that there is a 'body-brain' that exists semi-independently/cooperatively with the Big Brain.

The body-brain seems to be decentralized, yet acting in concert with the Big Brain, which is home to the 'mind'.


Have I got this somewhere close to right, Rob?

Yep. I mean, I guess. :)
You have to believe in evolution to buy into the idea, but that's it basically. The lower brain is based more in the body. Think of the simple brains of lower animals, for example. They are basically just nerves operating in sequence and concert. There isn't any real "thinking" as we are doing here.

The thinking about abstract stuff all happens in the big brain, but the body still maintains the "body brain" system. It seems to be mostly relegated to autonomous type stuff in us, to free up the power hungry brain. The whole "like riding a bike" thing is what I mean.

You don't THINK about riding a bike. You just do it.

Another one. Pitching. You can't THINK about pitching, and pitch. Your brain can concentrate on one particular phase or motion of the pitch, and focus in, but the brain can't "think" all the way through a pitch.
But, if you DON'T think about pitching, you can still do it. You can recite poetry and pitch. Why? Why do I finger pick and claw hammer the ukulele better with my eyes closed? No lie, I do.

Are there separate systems?

Peace,
Robert

amish rob
05-02-2017, 11:47 AM
As I approach my 53rd year I find that it takes me a bit longer to lose those 10 lbs I put on over winter. Usually by the beginning of May I'm ripped and ready for summer activities, cycling, sailing hiking, swimming.

This year with moving and growing the business it's been a little harder to get in peak shape. For years I would do 100 ( in a row ) push ups and 100 sit-ups and 50 dips every day. Combined with gym and other activities. I will say if I put a little motivation into it my body still responds fairly fast, I always referred to that as muscle memory.

Funny I just checked my Facebook Page just now and it had this memory from 7 years ago TODAY. I need to get back into this shape again.

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/29063_1378118166452_7074743_n.jpg?oh=577b4efedadac fe189822bdb3df75649&oe=59821C7E

Might be time to get off the WBF and hit the gym.

Don't forget the Tan and Laundry. :) Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Seriously, Joe, you should start swimming. It will work out your whole body quick-like. Bike to the beach, swim a bit, bike home.

You guys throw frisbees? Super fun beach exercise. Good for the obliques! :)

Peace,
Robert

amish rob
05-02-2017, 11:53 AM
I fully expect that the change from thinking to unthinking movement will happen faster. For one thing, my body's already learned some stuff, and will be itching to push my brain out of the way sooner. For another, while holding onto a person, you receive a constant dump of information about what the person's body is doing - where their weight's located, what the leverage points are - we're all quite similarly shaped bipedal stick-figures wrapped in meat, after all.

Rory Miller has people in his seminars learn to fight blindfolded; eye-dependent beings that we are, people are amazed that they can do it. But Miller says that touch is a lot faster than sight, because the information doesn't have to pass through any interpretive filters before it gets to your own muscles and tendons. And pretty soon people start to react not to the opponent's strikes or throws ... but to the subtle preparation motions and weight shifts before those things happen. You're into the counter before they've thrown the technique, because you're not actually responding to the technique.

That's what I'm looking forward to. Gonna be fun.

You may be the only person here to believe this.

My sifu could "feel" and "touch" you from a fair distance. He wouldmoften stand in the center of the room blindfolded and spar two or three of us. He could put his fingertip right on your nose, even blindfolded.

He "pushed" me several times. I mean he moved me without physical contact.

He claimed it was Qi, but really physics says covalent bonds. Why not affect the atoms interconnected to the atoms of your own "being"? Especially when you know we are all different forms of the same energy.

Keep track. See if you "think" throw/punch, or just naturally flow between them. Ask the ManCub, too. There may be a period that you have to involve the brain in the choice, even as experienced martialists.

Peace,
Robert

CWSmith
05-02-2017, 12:21 PM
I find my muscle memory has been misfiring this past year. Sometimes, for a brief second, I forget how to start brushing my teeth. I've done it the same way all my life and then all of a sudden I pause. It scares the cr@p out of me, but I think it's not what I fear it is.

ron ll
05-02-2017, 12:29 PM
I find my muscle memory has been misfiring this past year. Sometimes, for a brief second, I forget how to start brushing my teeth. I've done it the same way all my life and then all of a sudden I pause. It scares the cr@p out of me, but I think it's not what I fear it is.

Nope. That's just your hard drive getting full with so much new information. You may have to defrag your brain, or maybe just forget your old high school girlfriend so you have room to keep your tooth brushing memory.

David G
05-02-2017, 12:34 PM
Nope. That's just your hard drive getting full with so much new information. You may have to defrag your brain, or maybe just forget your old high school girlfriend so you have room to keep your tooth brushing memory.

Yes, I would also postulate being overwhelmed in some way. Even slightly beyond capacity will show up. Stress can do it. Maybe you have too many girlfriends? I always found it to be far less stressful if they all knew about each other (though that can have unforeseen, if sometimes interesting, consequences <G>).

JimD
05-02-2017, 01:15 PM
I find my muscle memory has been misfiring this past year. Sometimes, for a brief second, I forget how to start brushing my teeth. I've done it the same way all my life and then all of a sudden I pause. It scares the cr@p out of me, but I think it's not what I fear it is.If you haven't already done it, banish sugar and refined carbs from your diet. Eliminating blood sugar spikes that lead to insulin resistance may be the single most effective, and easy, thing you can do to keep your brain functioning properly https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/diagnosis-diet/201609/preventing-alzheimer-s-disease-is-easier-you-think


...researchers now understand that insulin resistance is a powerful force in the development of Alzheimer’s Disease...Which brain cells go first? The hippocampus is the brain's memory center. Hippocampal cells require so much energy to do their important work that they often need extra boosts of glucose. While insulin is not required to let a normal amount of glucose into the hippocampus, these special glucose surges do require insulin, making the hippocampus particularly sensitive to insulin deficits (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4253975/). This explains why declining memory is one of the earliest signs of Alzheimer’s, despite the fact that Alzheimer’s Disease eventually destroys the whole brain.https://cdn.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/styles/article-inline-half/public/field_blog_entry_images/atrophied-hippocampus_0.png?itok=25RLvyz3

TomF
05-02-2017, 01:22 PM
You may be the only person here to believe this.

My sifu could "feel" and "touch" you from a fair distance. He wouldmoften stand in the center of the room blindfolded and spar two or three of us. He could put his fingertip right on your nose, even blindfolded.

He "pushed" me several times. I mean he moved me without physical contact.

He claimed it was Qi, but really physics says covalent bonds. Why not affect the atoms interconnected to the atoms of your own "being"? Especially when you know we are all different forms of the same energy.

Keep track. See if you "think" throw/punch, or just naturally flow between them. Ask the ManCub, too. There may be a period that you have to involve the brain in the choice, even as experienced martialists.

Peace,
RobertI believe it's possible to "push" as your sifu did, but I'm pretty sure it's not possible for me. That's OK, I can't play major league baseball either. :D

While the younger son's itching to take up boxing - he's young enough to want to mash somebody in the nose while he still has good reflexes to avoid the counters. His older brother and I have chosen to cross-train Judo partly because it won't be over-writing the strikers' memories we've already laid down as much. Boxers punch differently than karate dudes, stand differently too. My old brain has enough to deal with, without having to decide how to choose between 2 versions of a similar motion.

Besides, I like the idea of learning something in a completely different range. But you're quite right, there's gonna be a period when we have to think, not just move. I dunno how long it will last, but I'll bet it will be longer for me than for the lad.

JimD
05-02-2017, 01:39 PM
... the younger son's itching to take up boxing ...I highly recommend he does. I spent several years training in a boxing gym and I am convinced that it was the best training I ever had for fighting. I am certain every martial artist will improve in ability from a couple years in a boxing gym. A good teacher here is as important as in anything else.

TomF
05-02-2017, 02:50 PM
I agree. There's a whole lot to be said for pressure-testing, having someone who is very interested in taking advantage of one's every opening. And for all that nobody punches harder than a boxer, the gear is decent enough that folks don't necessarily get broken, though I've got to say, minor concussion is no joke.

The body mechanics for striking and the footwork are really good too, though they are different from arts where you have to defend from kicks and takedowns too. And there's a whole lot to be said for learning head movement, and for learning what it feels to get hit solidly - that you can develop the ability to let it not rattle you.

I hope, though, that he comes back to karate after - the training's on the same nights. Of any of us, that lad is the one whose body movement is the most natural, the loveliest to watch. I can't help but think that if our particular club had spent more time during his coloured-belt years doing more impact drills and more bunkai (training the grappling and throws etc of our kata against resisting opponents) that he'd be feeling better about it...

JimD
05-02-2017, 03:04 PM
...I can't help but think that if our particular club had spent more time during his coloured-belt years doing more impact drills and more bunkai (training the grappling and throws etc of our kata against resisting opponents) that he'd be feeling better about it...A certain kind of young person needs to be tested, to test themselves. The intensity of boxing training, and free sparring with considerable contact provides that. Some people think they want to box until they actually try it for a while and decide after getting punched in the face and ribs a hundred times that it's not for them. Others can't get enough.

CWSmith
05-02-2017, 03:13 PM
Nope. That's just your hard drive getting full with so much new information. You may have to defrag your brain, or maybe just forget your old high school girlfriend so you have room to keep your tooth brushing memory.

:) I have been trying to forget her for 40+ years. Man, could I pick them! :)

CWSmith
05-02-2017, 03:16 PM
If you haven't already done it, banish sugar and refined carbs from your diet. Eliminating blood sugar spikes that lead to insulin resistance may be the single most effective, and easy, thing you can do to keep your brain functioning properly https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/diagnosis-diet/201609/preventing-alzheimer-s-disease-is-easier-you-think

Actually, I am half way there. I had 2 borderline diabetes blood tests in the last 18 months. It's nothing to get worried about, but I've started exercising more and limiting my intake. The goal is weight loss and I've lost about 20 lbs in the past year. I have not proven that I can keep it off, but I am optimistic that my sugar levels will fall as the weight does. At least, that's the doctor's theory.

lupussonic
05-02-2017, 03:20 PM
I have a brain in my penis, and it remembers EVERYTHING.

Seriously though, I was forced to learn violin when I was 6/7 years old, and hated every minute of it. Stopped when I was 10. Years later when I was in my late 30's I was laying down a track at a friends house, who had a double bass, which I really wanted to use. I picked it up, picked up the bow, and was shocked to see my hand grip it exactly as it should, on the finger pads, little finger all the way back, with a certain spacing between digits. 30 years had gone by.

Im but a layman with all this, but think it's just well defined neural pathways, I don't believe muscles have memory, any more than water does.

Maybe be we could define 'memory' a little in this context? Physical bodily knowledge? The ability to repeat a physical action, once learned?

beernd
05-02-2017, 04:05 PM
I'm shocked that there are 11 posts and no mention of Trump in a derogatory way.

Too frigging obvious to be funny :rolleyes:

amish rob
05-02-2017, 04:24 PM
I have a brain in my penis, and it remembers EVERYTHING.

Seriously though, I was forced to learn violin when I was 6/7 years old, and hated every minute of it. Stopped when I was 10. Years later when I was in my late 30's I was laying down a track at a friends house, who had a double bass, which I really wanted to use. I picked it up, picked up the bow, and was shocked to see my hand grip it exactly as it should, on the finger pads, little finger all the way back, with a certain spacing between digits. 30 years had gone by.

Im but a layman with all this, but think it's just well defined neural pathways, I don't believe muscles have memory, any more than water does.

Maybe be we could define 'memory' a little in this context? Physical bodily knowledge? The ability to repeat a physical action, once learned?

My whole quest began when I lost the neural connection. Even today I have limited sensation and flexion in my foot. I cannot lift my big toe, for example. Brain says, "Go!", body says, "What?"

I was pondering relearning stuff, and how we learn it, because I needed to. Still do. :) The whole "muscle memory" term is just that vague one used casually. The mindless ability to work a complicated task.

SOMETHING is thinking, for example, when my grandma crochets, because it ISN'T mindless, but she doesn't have to focus at all. She does sudoku and crochets intricate doilies. Yes, crochets. With, like, thread. It's amazing, and just "automatic", but it can't be, because the pattern always changes.

And, yes, the violin. And the bike.

There is some primal pleasure in turning off the thinking brain, I think. I run until my brain is exhausted and quits, then I zombie on like a wild hominid, bent on nothing more than moving fast for the sheer animal joy.

Hoot hoot.

See. Nobody here is too serious, even though this is serious. Just thoughts and questions. I am as open to ideas as I am willing to share my own.

Peace,
Body Brain In Charge, Now! Hoothoothoot!:)

skuthorp
05-02-2017, 04:30 PM
Different muscle memory. I knew a man who at 14 had his thigh broken by a kicking horse. At near 90 a bruise in the shape of a horses hoof appeared over the old break. He was in hospital while the medico's recorded and begun research as to how it could happen.

My muscles still remember lots of things, at over 70 their capacity to service that memory is not as it once was.

lupussonic
05-02-2017, 04:31 PM
Did you break your back Rob?

amish rob
05-02-2017, 04:37 PM
Did you break your back Rob?
I folded my self in half the wrong way with alacrity. Several discs in my lumbar region stopped being, and the main junction for the sciatic trunk got deeply cut between two vertebrae.

Nerve damage is crazy, because it so affects the musculature.

Things are good, now, mostly. I'm years down the road from it. Still, every day I can walk is a blessing. It could just stop working again.

Stupid brain is no help. :D

Peace,
Robert

PeterSibley
05-02-2017, 04:42 PM
My last muscle memory experience was two years ago, I was with friends who like to play tennis every Sunday. I hadn't played for 50 years, since I was 15. It took 1 1/2 hours, then my serve returned and I could drop a ball just over the net. A good serve every time. I was amazed !

lupussonic
05-02-2017, 04:44 PM
How did you manage to do that?

I just touched a high jump bar once, knocked it off the posts, and landed on it on the mat in the small of my back, which was nasty, but no lasting damage.

Also bent my left knee backwards, and it's never forgiven me.

amish rob
05-02-2017, 04:49 PM
How did you manage to do that?

I just touched a high jump bar once, knocked it off the posts, and landed on it on the mat in the small of my back, which was nasty, but no lasting damage.

Also bent my left knee backwards, and it's never forgiven me.
You know what buns over teakettle means? :) Well, if you jump a push bike really far, do not land on your chest and try to kick yourself in the back of the head.

You will hurt your head and back. And your chest. :)

Peace,
King Scorpion :d

PeterSibley
05-02-2017, 04:50 PM
Rob has a VERY, VERY strong chi. It seems to be what moves him ..... anyone else would be in a wheel chair .

amish rob
05-02-2017, 04:54 PM
Rob has a VERY, VERY strong chi. It seems to be what moves him ..... anyone else would be in a wheel chair .
Yes. And on opioids. My greatest strength is my stubborn endurance. Willful strength.

Also my greatest weakness. ;)

My doctor and I had a huge falling out over my return to running. I gave him my first post-injury iron man medal.

Shoot, man, I'll have tons of time to sit still when I die.

If. :)

Peace,
Robert

TomF
05-02-2017, 05:16 PM
Just running different paths then, lad. ;)

lupussonic
05-02-2017, 05:35 PM
I shouldn't have asked, as I'm actually really squeamish. Glad you're ok now mate, and kudos on you recovery iron man. That's really something Rob.

Shang
05-02-2017, 06:29 PM
I went from Okinawan Karate to Kodokan Judo because in Judo I got beaten up by nicer people.

amish rob
05-02-2017, 06:37 PM
I shouldn't have asked, as I'm actually really squeamish. Glad you're ok now mate, and kudos on you recovery iron man. That's really something Rob.
Thank you.

It really almost broke me, I won't lie. I was unable to do anything but lie board flat, or hobble around on a cane. I still have my cane, which I made from a stick of sequoia, as a reminder.

I still can't sit in a chair or car for long, and I recently discovered I can't pedal an "aggressive" enough position to do another ironman, but I still run a bunch. I am shooting for a 3 hour barefooted marathon this fall.

Best laid plans, and all...

Peace,
Bipedal For Life :)

PeterSibley
05-02-2017, 06:48 PM
I went from Okinawan Karate to Kodokan Judo because in Judo I got beaten up by nicer people.

I went to Korean Hapkido to learn how to fall and roll, a useful skill.

David G
05-02-2017, 06:52 PM
Yes. And on opioids. My greatest strength is my stubborn endurance. Willful strength.

Also my greatest weakness. ;)

My doctor and I had a huge falling out over my return to running. I gave him my first post-injury iron man medal.

Shoot, man, I'll have tons of time to sit still when I die.

If. :)

Peace,
Robert

I tried a gentler version of that fold when I was maybe 13. I still don't know precisely what went wrong. I was practicing the skateboard handstand, just in our driveway. Next thing I knew the board was shooting off in an odd direction, and I was folded the wrong way.

Even the milder experience, fueled only by gravity... not the level of inertia Rob had going for him... left me hobbled for weeks. No permanent damage, but a profound commitment to NEVER let that happen again.

Good luck with the ongoing rehab, Rob.

Ron Williamson
05-02-2017, 07:24 PM
You know what buns over teakettle means? :) Well, if you jump a push bike really far, do not land on your chest and try to kick yourself in the back of the head.

You will hurt your head and back. And your chest. :)

Peace,
King Scorpion :d

I've done that in a snowboard wipeout.
No real injury,but definitely not addictive.
R

Hallam
05-02-2017, 07:56 PM
I did judo for quite a few years and stopped in my 20's. A few years ago I was on my sisters farm and caught my shoe on the top wire as i jumped the fence and proceed head first toward the ground on the other side. In a split second i was on my feet again, the realization dawning that i had just tucked my head, broken my fall and done the roll back onto my feet as i had done thousands of times while doing judo. It was a great feeling! I wasn't as lucky with a timely reminder that life can change in an instant, when I broke a rib earlier this year with a bad fall while jumping from one boat to another. It could have been a lot worse as I narrowly missed a possible head injury.

David G
05-02-2017, 08:10 PM
I did judo for quite a few years and stopped in my 20's. A few years ago I was on my sisters farm and caught my shoe on the top wire as i jumped the fence and proceed head first toward the ground on the other side. In a split second i was on my feet again, the realization dawning that i had just tucked my head, broken my fall and done the roll back onto my feet as i had done thousands of times while doing judo. It was a great feeling! I wasn't as lucky with a timely reminder that life can change in an instant, when I broke a rib earlier this year with a bad fall while jumping from one boat to another. It could have been a lot worse as I narrowly missed a possible head injury.

I find that there are two components that come into play. The instincts and the physical fitness. My similar instincts came from a life of sports. Gymnastics helped a lot in the 'falling with intention' department. Those instincts abide. The physical fitness is something I'm working on reclaiming.

PeterSibley
05-02-2017, 09:42 PM
I went to Korean Hapkido to learn how to fall and roll, a useful skill.


I did judo for quite a few years and stopped in my 20's. A few years ago I was on my sisters farm and caught my shoe on the top wire as i jumped the fence and proceed head first toward the ground on the other side. In a split second i was on my feet again, the realization dawning that i had just tucked my head, broken my fall and done the roll back onto my feet as i had done thousands of times while doing judo. It was a great feeling! I wasn't as lucky with a timely reminder that life can change in an instant, when I broke a rib earlier this year with a bad fall while jumping from one boat to another. It could have been a lot worse as I narrowly missed a possible head injury.

I did that quite recently working in the bush, tripped on a vine, fell forward, tucked and rolled and came up on my feet. I was quite pleased.

bobbys
05-02-2017, 10:23 PM
I have been helping my son build his house.

He picked up waterlogged plywood, carried it up the ladder and walked up a 1012 pitch roof 30 feet up.

I followed him up to the top with a sheet and asked if I could just bring it up the ladder to him....

I forgot Im 64 ..

at least I got all the plywood to the edge for him..

nothing can humble a guy like me then working with 30 year old carpenters.

webishop14
05-02-2017, 11:58 PM
Having been born legally blind (correctable, fortunately) and a programming nut, I have done a lot of research on how we see what we see. There are more photon receptors in our retinas than channels feeding data into the brain. A first level "cooking" of data actually happens in the retina. This reduces the data flow to the optic nerve. Then the optic chiasma sorts out what data goes to which hemisphere. More "cooking" of data: most of the data crosses to the opposite hand hemisphere, but some is directed to the same hand hemisphere. I draw a hard distinction between mind and brain.

When I was in second grade, my parents bought me a clarinet. At the end of the school year, our school band was taken across the street to the Junior High building, where they had a legitimate theatre at one end (think Old School). Climbing the steps to go backstage, I tripped, fell and broke the clarinet. I was devastated. My folks decided this wasn't going to happen again, so they bought me a piano. I studied classical music for 12 years. I might have made it as a concert pianist, but other issues interfered. I have played most of my life (my boat building has taken me away from the piano). Muscle memory is absolutely a real thing. Where does it reside? Don't ask me. For me it lies in the hands, possibly the fingers, but definitely controlling the ligaments pulling the fingers. There are many passages that I simply could not play if I had to "think" of the notes I was going to have to play. The music says "Claire de Lune," my mind says "descending cascade of couplets," and my hand slides down the keyboard making the music. I don't have time to think it through any more than that.

Hallam
05-03-2017, 01:12 AM
Surfing every wave is different, with little or no time for conscious decision making along the wave. You look ahead at the wave and somehow your body known how to place you and the board on the surf able face of the wave. It's the most physically in the moment experience i regularly have access to. Improvising on the guitar is similar but less physical.

LongJohn
05-03-2017, 01:19 AM
Pushing 60, I notice my muscle memory come into play every spring when I unsteadily climb into my canoe after a long winter. Takes about 3 seconds to regain my 'sea legs' and another 10 to feel fully in control. Getting back into shape for a good whitewater run takes a bit longer. ;-)

Also, playing guitar off and on for ~45 years, I find that when I get into 'the zone', my hands can sometimes play songs I haven't played in decades while my mind frantically searches for the first line of the second verse.

- John

amish rob
05-03-2017, 03:17 AM
So...

The stories seem to indicate the term muscle memory is probably a misnomer, and it should more likely be called muscle thinking.
At least muscle perceiving and deciding independent of the brain, if not "thinking".

I don't know.

But, what about "feel". I can feel torque at low settings. Really. I can hit 5nm repeatedly. But, every fastener is different. It isn't as if my muscles simply turn the wrench a certain number of times. The muscles sense the torque and decide when to stop.

It is wild.

I think the two systems work together very closely, but I think there is some amount of separation, too. Higher thinking surely occcurs in the big brain part, but what about lower thinking.

What about a "gut" feeling, or a hunch, or a feeling in "the bones"? Are those feelings really the larks the brain tries to convince us?

I sometimes think the big brain is alien, and it struggles to impose its will on the body, which had been doing just fine for eons with no dumb big brain, thank you. The body rebels, but in the end, the mind prevails. The mind controls the body and brain, but transcends both, eh?

I guess.

Peace,
Robert

PeterSibley
05-03-2017, 03:36 AM
Then there's the brain gut connection. http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/healthy_aging/healthy_body/the-brain-gut-connection

JimD
05-03-2017, 12:06 PM
It is a widely held and non controversial fact that conscious experience takes time to generate, and therefore is always after the fact of whatever actions or situation it represents, and for these reasons many tasks are done far more efficiently without the involvement of so called conscious thinking. It needn't have to do with anything one might call muscle memory. It's just that brain/minds often get things done faster if they don't have to take the time to generate consciously experienced thoughts about whatever it is they might be up to. Standard neuroscience.

Ron Williamson
05-03-2017, 06:38 PM
Think about how you tie your shoes.

tie one with your eyes closed and tie one while you watch your fingers.

I can ride a line on my bike or board, or drive my truck through a slushy curve ,automatically as long as I'm looking in the direction I want to go.
As soon as I look at the bush, I'm headed for it , unless I consciously avoid it.
R

CWSmith
05-03-2017, 06:54 PM
A guitarist we like said in concert last month that feeling in his left hand is pretty much shot and he plays by muscle memory (or some equivalent). He does not want the surgery on his neck. That's rough, but he still plays very well. I suppose that eventually it may start to effect his dexterity.

JimD
05-03-2017, 07:14 PM
Think about how you tie your shoes.

tie one with your eyes closed and tie one while you watch your fingers.

I can ride a line on my bike or board, or drive my truck through a slushy curve ,automatically as long as I'm looking in the direction I want to go.
As soon as I look at the bush, I'm headed for it , unless I consciously avoid it.
RYup. Mostly you drive on autopilot, but you still need visual input to do it. One can imagine an alternate Universe where we needn't have any conscious awareness of the visual input, so long as the eyes were still pointed at the road and collecting the data and there was a visual cortex processing it. But not the way we're built in this world.

amish rob
05-04-2017, 09:59 AM
A guitarist we like said in concert last month that feeling in his left hand is pretty much shot and he plays by muscle memory (or some equivalent). He does not want the surgery on his neck. That's rough, but he still plays very well. I suppose that eventually it may start to effect his dexterity.

My very good friend has recently been playing shows outside his genre.

He he told me that sometimes he will start to freak out because he doesn't remember the song. Then he just "shuts off" his brain and plays the music.
Here's the deal, though. The live performances always include changes, so he's not playing by rote, but if he THINKS about the music, he can't remember the songs to play (this is a guy with about 9,847 songs bouncing around up there in his head).

I don't think the muscles have memory, I think they are laced with our primitive brain. I think that's the root of the arguments that can happen.

Me: Move, toe.
Toe: What?
Brain: Toe is moving.
Body: Toe can't move!
Me: C'mon, toe. Move!
Toe:...
Brain: Mission Accomplished!
Body: Nobody can hear you scream in this space. :) That toe ain't moving.
Brain: Of course it is. I told it to.
Body: See for yourself.
Brain: What? I'm telling it to move!
Eyes: Nay. Ain't moving.
Me: Hey! Shut up and get this toe moving.
Brain: Right away! Toe is moving, sir.
Body: No it's not.
Brain: Is too.
Body: Is not.
Me: Forget this. I'm going for a run...
Eyes: Whee!
Brain: I'll just spin around really fast till I get dizzy, then switch off, okay?
Me: Why change, now?

Peace,
Robert

JimD
05-07-2017, 01:52 PM
If you haven't already done it, banish sugar and refined carbs from your diet. Eliminating blood sugar spikes that lead to insulin resistance may be the single most effective, and easy, thing you can do to keep your brain functioning properly https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/diagnosis-diet/201609/preventing-alzheimer-s-disease-is-easier-you-thinkAnother article https://qz.com/977133/a-ucla-study-shows-there-could-be-a-cure-for-alzheimers-disease/
the researchers used a protocol consisting of a variety of different lifestyle modifications to optimize metabolic parameters—such as inflammation and insulin resistance—that are associated with Alzheimer’s disease. Participants were counseled to change their diet (a lot of veggies), exercise, develop techniques for stress management, and improve their sleep, among other interventions.

webishop14
05-08-2017, 09:12 AM
At least once I've been able to observe myself fall asleep. I was consciously aware of the data stream from my eyes shutting off. I have read somewhere that we actually have multiple streams of cognition running in parallel that we call consciousness.

About 7 years ago we had the floor in our bedroom redone. Pulled the carpet, put down tile. (Did that through the whole house.) With the room empty, it was a great opportunity to paint. I was up on an extension ladder painting the central beam in the ceiling, about 14 feet up. As I stepped up a rung to be able to run the brush along the top edge of the beam, I noticed the tips of the ladder beginning to slide down the face of the beam. Consciously, I muttered "Oh sh***t!" After the fact, I remember dropping the brush, grasping the TOP of the side rails, not the sides, and kicking off to do a fireman's slide down the ladder, with only the half-formed thought in my mind 'ok, God. I've done all I can, the rest is up to you.' This was only a flash of thought, no time to put it into words. At that point, everything went black as my top-level consciousness shut down. A LONG LONG time later, I heard in the distance the faint tinkling of an aluminum ladder rattling against the tile floor. It occurred to me then that I should focus on doing a reverse push-up, which I did, ending up doing a plank with my chin about three inches above a ladder rung and feeling an overwhelming sense of failure.