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Falcon1
04-29-2017, 01:57 PM
Hi there,

In anticipation of riveting some frames into my Ilur hull this summer, I tried my hand at it yesterday. I had made a home-made roving iron by drilling a hole into some round stock, which worked great.

I bought both roves and washers to try out after I noticed that the washers just slide on, while the roves need to be driven down along the nail shank with the tool. Seems like the roves are better because of this tightness, but they are more obtrusive as well. I was surprised how much they stick out. I can imagine getting a nasty scrape from them.

I thought about using roves for anything hidden (below floors, inside buoyancy tanks, etc.) and washers out where I might make contact.
I also imagine roves creating many paint drips when I paint. I will be painting the interior.

Anybody have experience with this they'd like to share? First pic has a washer on the far right.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4156/34344369845_90465c4ac3_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/UjTSBF)IMG_0929 (https://flic.kr/p/UjTSBF) by Michael Owen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107084128@N08/), on Flickr

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4157/34344370835_066ac05880_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/UjTSUK)IMG_0930 (https://flic.kr/p/UjTSUK) by Michael Owen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107084128@N08/), on Flickr

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2849/34213717751_a831500210_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/U8mfin)IMG_0932 (https://flic.kr/p/U8mfin) by Michael Owen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107084128@N08/), on Flickr

Jim Ledger
04-29-2017, 02:25 PM
You should be able to hammer the copper into a nice round dome that won't catch. Get a smaller hammer if you can't get in close where the mushroom meets the rove, that needs to be closed up. Sometimes a punch works well here, tapping that little gap shut and working around the rove. A little work with a file should remove any burrs.

The amount of excess length before hammering is critical and needs to be arrived at by trial and error.

You can see the washer dishing in in your picture. This is losing grip. The roves, on the other hand are not crushing into the wood, which is good.

Peerie Maa
04-29-2017, 02:28 PM
Roves are the proper things to use. They have been used for centuries without problem. Practice peening some more to reduce any ragged edges.
Washers are only appropriate for big diameter bolts.

Cross post with Jim.
This is the style of my favourite clenching hammer, a 4 oz slender head hammer.
https://www.railwayscenics.com/images/tools/silverline-ha14b-ball-pein-hammer.jpg

Todd Bradshaw
04-29-2017, 02:52 PM
Yep, use more taps from a smaller hammer, and it looks like you cut the nails with too much material left to peen down. You really don't need very much there to do the job and leave a relatively snag-free little mound.

Falcon1
04-29-2017, 04:35 PM
Thanks, gents! I'll practice, and look into a smaller hammer. I was impressed with the grip those things provided. The piece of oak was tight as heck to the ply.

Peerie Maa
04-29-2017, 04:52 PM
Thanks, gents! I'll practice, and look into a smaller hammer. I was impressed with the grip those things provided. The piece of oak was tight as heck to the ply.

Search for that long skinny head, rather than a short dumpy 4 oz hammer. Much better tor the tight corners.

jackster
04-29-2017, 06:20 PM
Copper burrs (washers) are sized to use with copper nails for riveting. And are less expensive.
https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=1925

Falcon1
04-29-2017, 06:23 PM
Posting this here so I won't forget. This is 8 oz., but they have a good selection. I may also wait 'till the WB show in Mystic to see if they have an old, nice one.
http://www.gesswein.com/p-4338-peddinghaus-polishing-hammer.aspx

I got the burrs, roves and nails at JD. Thanks!

Mike

Yeadon
04-29-2017, 06:30 PM
A nice 4 oz Vaughan (https://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-TC504-4-Ounce-Commercial-Hammer/dp/B00AI2AV5E/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1493508511&sr=8-2&keywords=4+oz+ball+peen+hammer) ball peen would do the trick.

Peerie Maa
04-29-2017, 06:41 PM
Posting this here so I won't forget. This is 8 oz., but they have a good selection. I may also wait 'till the WB show in Mystic to see if they have an old, nice one.
http://www.gesswein.com/p-4338-peddinghaus-polishing-hammer.aspx

I got the burrs, roves and nails at JD. Thanks!

Mike

No, too big and clunky. It is a silver smiths or panel beaters hammer.

Try http://castyouranchorhobby.com/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=45002&sid=335fa7s32x092u3nq4h1j16b1to83v97

or https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sealey-BPH04-Ball-Pein-Hammer/dp/B000RO66PW

LyleRussell
04-29-2017, 06:50 PM
I used an 8 oz ball peen hammer to peen over washers in my 12 1/2. Stubby head is better than long and thin. Occasionally I needed to replace a rivet between frames. The building spex said #8 copper nails and washers to attach frames to floors. They worked fine for me.

nedL
04-29-2017, 07:30 PM
To me the style of burr should agree with and complement the origins and design of the boat. Cupped burrs are a European design and I have always thought belong on boats of European origin or design. Flat burrs are more American and belong on boats of American origin or design.
(I do mean flat burrs, and not washers.)

if if you want some practice you can drive about 40 minutes west, this is all I've been doing for the past two days. :)

CJ
04-29-2017, 07:58 PM
It's as if I wrote your original post myself; I, too, have some first-time riveting in my near future on a Yankee Tender which I'm building. While at Jamestown Distributors, holding the copper nails, I was confused as to why the flat washers slid so easily onto the nail since I was under the impression that they had to have an interference fit, so I wrongly concluded that the washers must have been the wrong size for the nail. Next, I tried the roves and saw how they did, in fact, provide the interference fit, so I bought those. Next, I also found a piece of round stock, drilled it out and then concaved the end to fit the shape of the rove and tried my luck on some scrap and you're right, they're super tight. Now a little more practice before the real thing...

I briefly thought about using pennies in some spots, drilled slightly smaller than the nail and may test that out to see if it may add that 'character' I see in my mind...

Curious to see how you make out; let us know!

CJ

nedL
04-29-2017, 08:12 PM
............"I briefly thought about using pennies in some spots, drilled slightly smaller than the nail and may test that out to see if it may add that 'character' I see in my mind..."

Unless you have a stash of pennies that are older than about 1974, you don't want to do that. Pennies from about then (+\- a year or so, I don't remember for sure) are zinc with a thin cladding of copper.

Daniel Noyes
04-29-2017, 08:53 PM
copper washers should not collapse like that, I wonder if the hole was a little large? also the rivet head is not mushroomed out adequately, when i am done pening a rivet half the washer is covered by the mushroomed rivet head and the edges of the head are tight to, and drawing down the washer.

keep practicing.

I used to rivet hoops for Pert Lowell Co, we had a order for beetle cat every year, 200 hoops, 3 rivets in each hoop... that was one order.

Paul Scheuer
04-29-2017, 10:13 PM
Falcon1: You are wise to practice before committing.

When I was preparing to rivet the rails on my Yankee Tender I thought as you do that there might be a "snag factor" with the cupped roves. I ended up, after more practice, boring a slight recess in the inwales to accommodate the peaned rivets. I agree on many taps with a smaller hammer.

Yeadon
04-29-2017, 11:41 PM
While you should be able to get any snags taken care of through peening, it's always possible to very lightly sand and polish the peened end of a rivet with a foam pad and a touch of fine grit paper. Just enough to knock down any burrs that might be left over. Maybe it's better described as a light scuff.

Eric Hvalsoe
04-30-2017, 09:31 AM
I suggest using roves and proper square shank rivets sized to each other. More reliable strength and bite, easier to peen.
The size you appear to be talking about requires very little material to peen - about what the beveled tips of a set of end nippers leave behind above the rove. That's it. And it does not take a lot of working, with nothing more than a 6 or 8 oz peen. You can work it a little bit with both flat and rounded ends.

I have seen and used (not often) round nails and washers. Round nails don't bite a washer or rove the way a square nail does before and as you peen.

The way rivets stand proud is one reason I prefer clench nailing traditional lapstrake planking when possible. Rubrails are riveted.

Ben Fuller
04-30-2017, 11:02 AM
I always understood that the cupped roves were European whereas the flat ones were American ( and maybe also used in Europe). I've never had problems with making contact with the roves on the faering and they are big ones. As I recall the flat washer when sized right were a little tight on the nail, in fact need to be tapped down to set into place; if they slide they are too loose. For them, the roving iron is flat, just has a hole without cup. In the old days before washers, they used to cut washers from sheet copper. This was copied on the LAFAYETTE which is why you will see parallelogram shaped 'washers' on her. These were made by scribing the copper and the holes with a nail before finally cutting the sheet apart. Don't remember how this was done. One of the advantages of rivets over other fastenings is that refastening or tightning fastenings is easy.

Peerie Maa
04-30-2017, 12:54 PM
For them, the roving iron is flat, just has a hole without cup. In the old days before washers, they used to cut washers from sheet copper. This was copied on the LAFAYETTE which is why you will see parallelogram shaped 'washers' on her. These were made by scribing the copper and the holes with a nail before finally cutting the sheet apart. Don't remember how this was done. One of the advantages of rivets over other fastenings is that refastening or tightning fastenings is easy.

Flat roving irons, not cupped are better for conical roves as well, as they compress the rove onto the nail. My favourite is an old lump hammer on a short haft. It has different sized holes drilled in one face for different gauge nails/bolts. The other face is used for the bucking iron.
Diamond roves preceded round roves, they were punched through, to raise the cone, and part cut with a chisel. They were sold in "sticks" and snapped off at the chisel cut in use.

nedL
05-02-2017, 11:58 AM
A tedious job, single handed riveting a good size boat.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef511eb6803100000030O12Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502164720886.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef50f43621b800000030O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502164721010.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef51cf46c03100000030O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502164721857.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

And a real fancy rove set.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef50cd79e04300000030O12Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502170713236.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef51305f80cf00000030O22Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502164722691.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef504025a0c100000030O22Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502164722979.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

nedL
05-02-2017, 12:11 PM
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef50169d216200000030O22Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502164724017.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef50349ba04500000090O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502164724465.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef513c4e01e800000050O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502164725053.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

And a small ball peen hammer

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef508320e03d00000030O12Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502164725160.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef515172417a00000030O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502170710758.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

nedL
05-02-2017, 12:26 PM
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd20b3127cceeed779a4901700000030O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170301184242975.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da32b3127cceee8f2007cceb00000030O12Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170413163818794.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da32b3127cceee8fbadacc7b00000030O22Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170413163820809.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef503d63e02100000030O12Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502164726014.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The ribs are 1" x 1 3/4".
In the area where the travel lift will pick her up I doubled up on the ribs (3 1/2" centers).

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef51194dc05100000030O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502164726923.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef502a08a0d900000030O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020170502164728955.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Jay Greer
05-02-2017, 01:26 PM
As long as we are on the subject, I prefer Roves to washers. I also prefer Brittish boat nails as they have less tendency to bend and fit the Roves better.
Jewlery supply companies offer a hollow, domed, planishing punch called a "Dapping Die" that will finish off the peened head smooth. They come in a variety of sizes.
Jay
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef51b63f01dc00000030O00QYsmrNy5bsQ e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00107990352120170502182429770.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

J P
05-02-2017, 01:28 PM
Other than those times when one needs a third hand, is there any reason not to use a rivet setting tool (punch)? Done right, they leave a nice smooth mushroomed end on the rivet. Seems less tedious than peening, and maybe filing to smooth, with less chance of work-hardening.

edit: cross post with Jay.
Another type, used for setting burrs as well:

http://www.outfitterssupply.com/images/wlf6202.jpg

Peerie Maa
05-02-2017, 01:44 PM
Other than those times when one needs a third hand, is there any reason not to use a rivet setting tool (punch)? Done right, they leave a nice smooth mushroomed end on the rivet. Seems less tedious than peening, and maybe filing to smooth, with less chance of work-hardening.

edit: cross post with Jay.
Another type, used for setting burrs as well:

http://www.outfitterssupply.com/images/wlf6202.jpg
If you are suggesting using the punch instead of peening, then no. Striking straight on the end of the nail will bend it in the wood. Peening round the sides of the nail forms the head without risking bending. You may then find that a hollow punch tidies up the peening, but most builders do not need to bother.

J P
05-02-2017, 02:00 PM
If you are suggesting using the punch instead of peening, then no. Striking straight on the end of the nail will bend it in the wood. Peening round the sides of the nail forms the head without risking bending. You may then find that a hollow punch tidies up the peening, but most builders do not need to bother.

Ah, I see. Thanks. Lacking experience, I figured there was a good reason.

nedL
05-02-2017, 02:49 PM
Sometimes fussiness about the smoothness of the finished peening seems ,..... well, just a bit daunting.
:)


https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d704b3127ccef16687edd6bb00000030O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020120925184510775.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d704b3127ccef1668e4217b800000030O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020120925184514381.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d704b3127ccef1668266179a00000030O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020120925184518218.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d704b3127ccef166bbedd6a500000030O02Bbs3DVuzZA9 vPhI/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00200375837020120925184459485.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Jay Greer
05-02-2017, 04:29 PM
The reason for finishing off with a domed planishing punch is to smooth the, often sharp and jagged edges of the peened portion of the mushroomed nail ends is, less chance of later tearing clothes, sails or flesh
Jay

nedL
05-02-2017, 04:32 PM
Ahhh, ..... That is where part of the skill of using the ball peen hammer comes in. With just a quick wipe of the finger you know if one or two more taps are needed to leave it burr free.

Though I suppose one would want to be much more careful on a small craft where you see and are in contact with the rivets.

Falcon1
05-03-2017, 09:14 AM
Wow! Thanks Ned. And everyone else. I'll keep practicing with the round nails and roves I have. Still got a few planks and stuff before turnover.

This build is glued-plywood lapstrake, but the designer specified 10 riveted frames. So should be fun (steam box to be built soon) without being too daunting.

Cheers,

Mike

Canoeyawl
05-03-2017, 09:33 AM
As long as we are on the subject, I prefer Roves to washers. I also prefer Brittish boat nails as they have less tendency to bend and fit the Roves better.
Jewlery supply companies offer a hollow, domed, planishing punch called a "Dapping Die" that will finish off the peened head smooth. They come in a variety of sizes.
Jay
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef51b63f01dc00000030O00QYsmrNy5bsQ e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00107990352120170502182429770.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

I made up some of these for my (cheap) air hammer by reworking the end of a pointed punch in a lathe. Using a (cheap) air pressure regulator it worked very well. After that I, with a helper to hold the buck, could do about 500 rivets per day. And they are perfectly rounded little heads with no burrs.
I did quite a bit of testing to adjust the pressure and get the "stick out" just right to know that we were not bending the rivets. Big time saver that tool.

Ben Fuller
05-03-2017, 12:55 PM
Jimmy Steele fastened a shoe to the switch that operated his air hammer freeing a hand so if he could reach it he could hold the bucking iron as well.

Jay Greer
05-05-2017, 12:24 PM
I use an air hammer on heavy frames when riveting or, in a restricted area where a peening hammer can't be swung. The air hammer can bend a nail within a light frame if one is not sensitive to the work. The advantage of a hand set rivet is that you can feel it draw up as well as hear it as the sound grows sharper from pong to ping.
Jay

Phil Jans
05-05-2017, 03:43 PM
I've always thought that the conical shape of roves was meant to bear on softwood planking and that flat burrs are for hardwood, such as oak frames. On my current project I used burrs on the frames and roves on the plank laps. Either way, you've got to have a snug fit. I couldn't find suitable copper washers having the right size hole, so I flattened some roves with a hammer. It took about five blows each using my table saw table as an anvil. The flattening closed up the hole, so I punched a new one using a Roper-Whitney portable punch clamped to the bench. RW sells individual dies in many sizes and I was able to get just the right interference fit. A little tedious, after the first hundred or so, but it worked out in the end.

Peerie Maa
05-05-2017, 03:47 PM
I've always thought that the conical shape of roves was meant to bear on softwood planking and that flat burrs are for hardwood, such as oak frames. On my current project I used burrs on the frames and roves on the plank laps. Either way, you've got to have a snug fit. I couldn't find suitable copper washers having the right size hole, so I flattened some roves with a hammer. It took about five blows each using my table saw table as an anvil. The flattening closed up the hole, so I punched a new one using a Roper-Whitney portable punch clamped to the bench. RW sells individual dies in many sizes and I was able to get just the right interference fit. A little tedious, after the first hundred or so, but it worked out in the end.

Nope, we do not use burrs at all. Roves on everything, larch plank, mahogany plank, oak or ash timbers, all roves.