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David G
04-13-2017, 09:20 AM
Co-op Bikes --

http://www.digitaltrends.com/outdoors/rei-co-op-cycles/

https://www.rei.com/b/co-op-cycles (http://www.digitaltrends.com/outdoors/rei-co-op-cycles/)

LeeG
04-13-2017, 12:07 PM
That'll take a bite out of QBC bikes, Surly n Salsa

amish rob
04-13-2017, 12:11 PM
I would like to add a professional opinion.

No comment. Ahem.

Peace,
Robert

David G
04-13-2017, 12:25 PM
I would like to add a professional opinion.

No comment. Ahem.

Peace,
Robert

Don't be a snob. <G> I don't think the line is aimed at tri-athletes, and suchlike. It more for the masses... with a bit better overall quality and design than their previous (just above a Huffy) line... and more offering for those who want to expand beyond the basics. I haven't seen any actual reviews yet, though. Have you? I love REI, and always shook my head at their pathetic bike line. I'm hoping this is an improvement.

devout
04-13-2017, 12:40 PM
Co-op Bikes --

http://www.digitaltrends.com/outdoors/rei-co-op-cycles/

(http://www.digitaltrends.com/outdoors/rei-co-op-cycles/)https://www.rei.com/b/co-op-cycles


I don't ride too seriously, but looking at this range, the mountain bike is a hardtail, (no rear shock, the horror), and I guarantee you you don't want to be on one of those after 80 k's of single track racing. I don't know how prices compare over in the US, but in SA you can buy a new 1000 cc superbike for the price of one of the top range cycles like Cannondale. Ludicrous :confused:

amish rob
04-13-2017, 12:46 PM
Don't be a snob. <G> I don't think the line is aimed at tri-athletes, and suchlike. It more for the masses... with a bit better overall quality and design than their previous (just above a Huffy) line... and more offering for those who want to expand beyond the basics. I haven't seen any actual reviews yet, though. Have you? I love REI, and always shook my head at their pathetic bike line. I'm hoping this is an improvement.
No snob here. Honest.

I rail regularly for real bikes. Instead, year after year, EVERYONE puts out more gimmicks.

I'm fairly anti-suspension, for example, especially on low end bikes. I also think tubeless tires are a dumb idea that just continues to be forced onto people. And disk brakes. They are all finicky garbage. Please, please, somebody in the bike industry figure out floating calipers or rotors. Please. And, please, everyone except a few specialists, knock it off with the hydraulic brakes.

I like the bikes, for what they are, but I still think bikes should be more practical across the board. I think too many people have fancy gimmick bikes. 2200 for 105 and Carbon with no provenance is worrisome. The WTC in Taipei is FULL of carbon bike parts. You can literally walk around in circles, floor after floor, and pick bike part after bike part. Generally mixed in with pumps or shoes or tennis rackets or some oddment. :)

For the record, my "nice" bike is a steel framed rigid mountain bike with rim brakes. I have two steel track bikes I don't race anymore. No road bike or tri bike, at all. In fact, I'm looking at a LWB recumbent. I am unable to pedal my tri bike with pain free ferocity.
My everyday bike is a single speed coaster brake chain guard affair. It looks like the bike lane bike. THAT'S the type bike I get excited about. Transportation, not toys. :)

I don't really care for REI as a place, but that is mostly because that isn't my outdoor style. There,certainly is a lot of stuff to see inside one. They seem to be a cool company, and I certainly wish them luck.

Part of me wishes they would have just worked on some corporate partnerships, though, rather than house-branding again.

Peace,
Robert

LeeG
04-13-2017, 12:52 PM
The ADV-1 looks like the old Randonee and the ADV-2 looks like the Safari.

David G
04-13-2017, 12:55 PM
No snob here. Honest.

I rail regularly for real bikes. Instead, year after year, EVERYONE puts out more gimmicks.

I'm fairly anti-suspension, for example, especially on low end bikes. I also think tubeless tires are a dumb idea that just continues to be forced onto people. And disk brakes. They are all finicky garbage. Please, please, somebody in the bike industry figure out floating calipers or rotors. Please. And, please, everyone except a few specialists, knock it off with the hydraulic brakes.

I like the bikes, for what they are, but I still think bikes should be more practical across the board. I think too many people have fancy gimmick bikes. 2200 for 105 and Carbon with no provenance is worrisome. The WTC in Taipei is FULL of carbon bike parts. You can literally walk around in circles, floor after floor, and pick bike part after bike part. Generally mixed in with pumps or shoes or tennis rackets or some oddment. :)

For the record, my "nice" bike is a steel framed rigid mountain bike with rim brakes. I have two steel track bikes I don't race anymore. No road bike or tri bike, at all. In fact, I'm looking at a LWB recumbent. I am unable to pedal my tri bike with pain free ferocity.
My everyday bike is a single speed coaster brake chain guard affair. It looks like the bike lane bike. THAT'S the type bike I get excited about. Transportation, not toys. :)

I don't really care for REI as a place, but that is mostly because that isn't my outdoor style. There,certainly is a lot of stuff to see inside one. They seem to be a cool company, and I certainly wish them luck.

Part of me wishes they would have just worked on some corporate partnerships, though, rather than house-branding again.

Peace,
Robert

Thanks for that analysis. I've been out of the industry for many years, and so appreciate your insight.

LeeG
04-13-2017, 01:04 PM
Robert, this is my around town bike. Sun Atlas X. I replaced the 11g spoked wheels with normal 14g spoked wheels and coaster brake 3spd.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AAHxbmjPd6g/VqI_rd6MMRI/AAAAAAAAGn0/iChce3vdc4Q/s1600/suna%2Batlas%2Bsmaller.jpg

Bobcat
04-13-2017, 01:05 PM
My 30 year old Nashbar serves me well getting to and from my local light rail station.

amish rob
04-13-2017, 01:06 PM
Thanks for that analysis. I've been out of the industry for many years, and so appreciate your insight.

Well, I have only been skirting the edges of the biz for a while, but I know folks from the top down, still.

I think they should have done a deal with Bosch or Yamaha and released a series of electric assist bikes. I say that because it seems they are trying to compete in niches already dominated by specialty bike manufacturers. The adventure bike category, for example. Or gravel bikes, or whatever. Everyone does them, and some do them well. Very well.

I think electric assist bikes are a good answer to urban transportation. In the right weather, yes, for fair weathers. :) And, I think someplace like REI should have really done something unique to make their bike line special, rather than just different.

The problem in most places here, though, is the Second Class status bicycles and cyclist have. The are it considered,to be viable transportation, and in many cases aren't, because our cities are built for cars, by and large.

We shall see. Again, I wish them luck, really. I hope it pays off.

Peace,
Robert

amish rob
04-13-2017, 01:08 PM
Robert, this is my around town bike. Sun Atlas X. I replaced the 11g spoked wheels with normal 14g spoked wheels and coaster brake 3spd.

Yes! That's what I'm talking about.

Which doesn't mean I don't like fancy bikes. Because I do.

But I'm really a practical machine guy at heart. The most efficient people mover yet...

Peace,
Robert

Mike.Higgins.94301
04-13-2017, 01:32 PM
I'm also old school, when it comes to bikes (I guess boats as well). My wife and I still ride a steel frame tandem that was made for us in 1977. The freewheel and chain rings have had to be replaced over the years and one of the cranks broke. However, this bike still gets us up the hills just fine. The photo below (by Ray Hosler) show us on a dirt road ride back in the mid 80's.

http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r483/mikehiggins94301/Alpine%20Road%20Oct%2012%201986_zpsvqcsmwgu.jpg (http://s1168.photobucket.com/user/mikehiggins94301/media/Alpine%20Road%20Oct%2012%201986_zpsvqcsmwgu.jpg.ht ml)

A lot of what made that bike work so well was the standardization around Campagnolo components, the best source of bike parts back in those days. Chains, freewheels, and chain rings were mostly interchangeable. Of course, the modern cassette hubs allow for a stronger rear axle. SPD pedals are an improvement over the old clips and cleats. However, the rest of modern bike design seems focused on cornering markets without actual improvements in functionality. For example, ten-speed cassettes have more gear combinations but the required chains now use a special link. The old 5, 6 and 7 speed freewheels used a chain that can be disassembled by pressing out any of the pins. This made cleaning chains far easier. And who really needs 30 gear combinations. My commuter is a single-speed fixed gear bike.

I've also never understood the appeal of plastic frames for the average user. They don't last and cannot be repaired as easily as steel frames. My single, with its steel frame, weighs a little over 20 pounds. A bike built on a carbon frame can weigh less than 15 pounds. However, I can take most of 5 pounds off my bike with the judicious use of Metamucil.

oznabrag
04-13-2017, 01:39 PM
When navigating a hillside trail, one should always carry one's gear on the downhill side.

In the pic above, if you slip, you fall on top of the bike.

It can get a LOT worse from there.

amish rob
04-13-2017, 01:58 PM
I'm also old school, when it comes to bikes (I guess boats as well). My wife and I still ride a steel frame tandem that was made for us in 1977. The freewheel and chain rings have had to be replaced over the years and one of the cranks broke. However, this bike still gets us up the hills just fine. The photo below (by Ray Hosler) show us on a dirt road ride back in the mid 80's.

http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r483/mikehiggins94301/Alpine%20Road%20Oct%2012%201986_zpsvqcsmwgu.jpg (http://s1168.photobucket.com/user/mikehiggins94301/media/Alpine%20Road%20Oct%2012%201986_zpsvqcsmwgu.jpg.ht ml)

A lot of what made that bike work so well was the standardization around Campagnolo components, the best source of bike parts back in those days. Chains, freewheels, and chain rings were mostly interchangeable. Of course, the modern cassette hubs allow for a stronger rear axle. SPD pedals are an improvement over the old clips and cleats. However, the rest of modern bike design seems focused on cornering markets without actual improvements in functionality. For example, ten-speed cassettes have more gear combinations but the required chains now use a special link. The old 5, 6 and 7 speed freewheels used a chain that can be disassembled by pressing out any of the pins. This made cleaning chains far easier. And who really needs 30 gear combinations. My commuter is a single-speed fixed gear bike.

I've also never understood the appeal of plastic frames for the average user. They don't last and cannot be repaired as easily as steel frames. My single, with its steel frame, weighs a little over 20 pounds. A bike built on a carbon frame can weigh less than 15 pounds. However, I can take most of 5 pounds off my bike with the judicious use of Metamucil.

The new chains actually have a "quick link" which is a much improved reusable master link. Chains come off easily, now. The reason for the multiple speeds in back is to increase the number of useable gears in the range. For example, a 10 speed 12-25 cassettes has 12-13-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-25, if I remember correctly. Not so large of jumps, so it's easier to find a comfortable cadence and speed.

Many mountain bikes are changing to a 1x. I gear in front, and 10 or 11 in the rear with an enormous range. Very robust, actually.

Also, carbon frames are actually quite repairable. A repair on a carbon frame really is LESS work than repairing a steel frame. I hate to say it, but it is true.

My only real beef with modern bikes are the bearings. At some point, the industry decided to use skateboard bearings. Garbage.
Shimano still uses hardened races and ball bearings in their wheels, but everything else is skateboard bearings.

The new electronic shifters are amazing, too. Really. The Bluetooth shifters and derailleurs work quite well.

Peace,
Robert

Hugh Conway
04-13-2017, 02:15 PM
The new electronic shifters are amazing, too. Really. The Bluetooth shifters and derailleurs work quite well. whats the point? eliminate cable routing? as someone not interested in a continuous upgrade train I find current bikes frustrating. too many orphaned "standards".

whatever the design the rei frames are probably made by kinesis in the same factory and the parts churned out by the same chinese fabs.

amish rob
04-13-2017, 02:25 PM
whats the point? eliminate cable routing? as someone not interested in a continuous upgrade train I find current bikes frustrating. too many orphaned "standards".
Not applicable to me, at all, really. :)

The basic idea, though, is more precise shifting that won't degrade in performance. To get a lovely light lever feel, there needs to be no friction, but cables and housings add friction. Cables wear, housings compress, performance suffers. These electronic jobs are literally push button. As a person who learned friction shift, then had to relearn with integrated shifter-brakes, I can say there is another learning curve for electronic shifters. It is a startling diffence.

They are truly aimed at performance cyclists, but the technology IS an improvement over cables and springs. The people who like electronic shifters the most, it seems, are cyclocross racers. They are also drivng the disk brake trend. It is easier for manufacturers to make all the frame alike, as far as tooling is concerned. Easier to make all disk brake forks than half disk and half rim brake, for example.

The disk brakes on road bike are appearing because the exaggerated aerodynamics of the rim shapes don't allow for good brake tracks on the rims. Also, rims are getting wider as tire technology and profiles change, so there is less room for brake pads.

Peace,
Robert

amish rob
04-13-2017, 02:26 PM
whats the point? eliminate cable routing? as someone not interested in a continuous upgrade train I find current bikes frustrating. too many orphaned "standards".

whatever the design the rei frames are probably made by kinesis in the same factory and the parts churned out by the same chinese fabs.

Common to have many brands have their frames made by one factory. Very common, actually.

Peace,
Robert

Yeadon
04-13-2017, 02:29 PM
REI got a new CEO a couple years ago. Things were alright before but they now seem somewhat stronger and more mission-focused. I'm guessing there's a correlation. My sense is that over the decades they grew from a co-op to a professional retailer. Some of the community and mission was probably lost during that growth. Nothing is perfect, but generally I think they're a good company to do business with.

I'm not really into bikes, though I might start riding again once the weather breaks around here. I never realized Novara was a starter brand.

sandtown
04-13-2017, 02:40 PM
Come on peoples !! This is a sailing site !!

You got to get you a folding bike for your boat.

I got one of these a while back, maybe ten years ago. Since then they have doubled in price - GULP !!

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-lDenQ3uq-DDU2XLzHEVOuulPF4OxK2oBVZoiX4Bac-3oDOAKi81ZG5pXEU31xuTX0UB_RZ4&usqp=CAE

Jimmy W
04-13-2017, 02:55 PM
Actually, I own two folding bikes, my Raleigh Twenty and a Fuji mountain bike. I have ridden twice this week on my 1966 Carlton 10 speed. I like friction shifters.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd41/jimmywga/CarltonCatalina1966_zps7ebf8821.jpg

Keith Wilson
04-13-2017, 03:17 PM
You want old-school? Here's my bike these days (well, one just like it, except mine has a 1948 rear Dynohub).

http://www.kurtkaminer.com/1976_dl1_ph_fin_1.jpg

Bobcat
04-13-2017, 03:42 PM
You want old-school? Here's my bike these days (well, one just like it, except mine has a 1948 rear Dynohub).

http://www.kurtkaminer.com/1976_dl1_ph_fin_1.jpg

Clearly you live where there are no hills

David G
04-13-2017, 03:48 PM
He lives in Minnie-soter. Hills have been against the law there for some time. Lakes, otoh, are encouraged. I think they have a breeding program...

Keith Wilson
04-13-2017, 03:56 PM
Clearly you live where there are no hillsSmall hills. I go up them slowly, and pant. ;) (Mine actually does have lower gearing than the one in the picture.)

Bobcat
04-13-2017, 03:58 PM
Since I grew up and live in Seattle, where 18 percent grades dot down town and there are several streets with more than 20 percent grades, I am always surprised to go to cities where there are no hills. Denver for example strikes me as a great place to get around by pedaling, if there is no snow and you're acclimated to the elevation.

https://www.seattlebikeblog.com/2013/01/17/the-steepest-streets-in-seattle/

bluedog225
04-13-2017, 06:03 PM
REI has some frame failures on its store brand. People got badly hurt. Stuff happens. I did some digging around in the legal documents and it looks to me like they tried to cover it up. No notice to other owners that I could find (including me). Not cool.

Hugh Conway
04-13-2017, 06:23 PM
REI has some frame failures on its store brand. People got badly hurt. Stuff happens. I did some digging around in the legal documents and it looks to me like they tried to cover it up. No notice to other owners that I could find (including me). Not cool. Well, it was the fault of the Taiwanese manufacturer < sarcasm >
http://kval.com/outdoors/investigation-rei-bike-frame-failures-result-in-lawsuits

REI isn't a coop. It's a retailer with a loyalty program. The powers that be have continuously chipped away at the powers of the coop members.

paulf
04-13-2017, 06:34 PM
I want a 50s style Schwinn with a hidden motor. It would have streamers on the handle bars, balloon white wall tires and one of those little generators that rubbed against the wheel...plus a drink holder.

The secret engine would propel it at 30 MPH up hill.

Then I would show up at the Hurricane ridge hill ride wearing carharts and work boots and pass all the bike snobs while smoking a Camel cigarette and drinking a beer...just for fun.

amish rob
04-13-2017, 06:38 PM
I want a 50s style Schwinn with a hidden motor. It would have streamers on the handle bars, balloon white wall tires and one of those little generators that rubbed against the wheel...plus a drink holder.

The secret engine would propel it at 30 MPH up hill.

Then I would show up at the Hurricane ridge hill ride wearing carharts and work boots and pass all the bike snobs while smoking a Camel cigarette and drinking a beer...just for fun.
https://electricbikereview.com/wp-content/assets/2016/03/2016-electra-townie-go-electric-bike-review.jpg

https://electricbikereview.com/electra/townie-go/
Here you go, Brother. The Townie Go it's called. White tires, not white walls, but awesome fun. Really. I've ridden them. You don't even have to pedal, just keep rocking the pedal forth and back. :)

You should smoke a pipe, instead.

Peace,
Robert

leikec
04-13-2017, 06:41 PM
I briefly entertained the idea of buying a Cannondale Quick speed 3, but I got distracted. My Mondia Special is a hell of a good bike, and I've got a Raleigh Sport Comfort that is probably good enough for rail trails.

Jeff C

Bobcat
04-13-2017, 06:45 PM
This is the bike I wanted when I was 8:

http://classiccycleus.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/1970-Schwinn-Orange-Krate-300x225.jpg

amish rob
04-13-2017, 06:48 PM
This is the bike I wanted when I was 8:

http://classiccycleus.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/1970-Schwinn-Orange-Krate-300x225.jpg
We have an Apple Crate and a Fairlady Stingray. The Fairlady has repop wheels and is only a single, now. The Crate was always a single, but the big square slick is long gone...

Peace,
Robert

CK 17
04-13-2017, 06:55 PM
I bought a K2 aluminum mountain bike from REI in 2005. I don't ride a lot, mostly when I have a running injury it's my plan b. It's been a good bike and it still is.

I had had a bike Friday back in my freight dog days and I had the room for a folding bike. I rode the piss out of it for several years and the sold it for have of what I bought for.

David G
04-13-2017, 07:47 PM
This is the bike I wanted when I was 8:

http://classiccycleus.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/1970-Schwinn-Orange-Krate-300x225.jpg

I had one very like it. Lost it to the primal mud of Young's Bay in a tragic Evel Knievel-inspired raft jumping incident. Replaced it with a Schwinn 10-speed.

The Bigfella
04-13-2017, 07:52 PM
I just grabbed my bike yesterday and brought it over to the new place. I have to get fit... this damn persistent chest weakness has to go. I skewered a tail light on the M5, loading it into the boot, dammit. The tyres have stayed pumped up.... so, away we go. I haven't got a photo of it, but it's a 25 year old carbon framed Giant / Cadex CFM2. Same as this... except mine doesn't have the mudguards

http://fstatic0.mtb-news.de/f3/16/1698/1698736-2oym0bql7uni-img_8857-medium.jpg

Chris249
04-13-2017, 08:01 PM
The mention of boats and folding bikes leads me to ask whether anyone here has much experience with "performance" folders. We definitely plan to take bikes when we go cruising, but the cycling I do ranges from utility (ie we do most of our shopping on our bikes) to multi-day touring and track and road racing, so a normal small-wheel folding bike isn't going to cut it.

We need something with drop bars and the ability to take racks and a fairly aggressive riding position; even when I was a courier and spent 10 hours a day on the bike I found that the "sit up and beg" position is uncomfortable for me. The Montague range looks to be one possibility, but it's only got flat bars and much as I want to have a flat-bar bike, they just are not comfortable for me.

amish rob
04-13-2017, 08:01 PM
I bought a K2 aluminum mountain bike from REI in 2005. I don't ride a lot, mostly when I have a running injury it's my plan b. It's been a good bike and it still is.

I had had a bike Friday back in my freight dog days and I had the room for a folding bike. I rode the piss out of it for several years and the sold it for have of what I bought for.

K2 did bikes right in that they had well made bikes. Really.

You should be good forever as long as you don't abuse it.

Peace,
Robert

amish rob
04-13-2017, 08:07 PM
The mention of boats and folding bikes leads me to ask whether anyone here has much experience with "performance" folders. We definitely plan to take bikes when we go cruising, but the cycling I do ranges from utility (ie we do most of our shopping on our bikes) to multi-day touring and track and road racing, so a normal small-wheel folding bike isn't going to cut it.

We need something with drop bars and the ability to take racks and a fairly aggressive riding position; even when I was a courier and spent 10 hours a day on the bike I found that the "sit up and beg" position is uncomfortable for me. The Montague range looks to be one possibility, but it's only got flat bars and much as I want to have a flat-bar bike, they just are not comfortable for me.
Bike Friday has a range of performance folders that are cool. They are smaller wheels, but they ride like "big" bikes. Yes, drop bars :)

Dahon also has some mid sized wheel,folders with some performance oriented geometry and components. Not,sure about drop bars on them.

There are also many bikes with "couplers" that allow the frame to be disassembled into pieces. Sort of non-traditional folders.

Where did you sling paychecks and summons? I did time on the streets of SF in the early 90s. That's when I learned how to really skid a fixed wheel well. :)

Peace,
Robert

Hugh Conway
04-13-2017, 08:35 PM
K2 did bikes right in that they had well made bikes. Really. It's unfortunate they and lots of other talent got rolled up into the corporate evil that was K2 industries.

LeeG
04-13-2017, 09:16 PM
Yes! That's what I'm talking about.

Which doesn't mean I don't like fancy bikes. Because I do.

But I'm really a practical machine guy at heart. The most efficient people mover yet...

Peace,
Robert

The 1" steel seatpost bent after a half year but so far a basic LaPrade style aluminum sestpost has held up well. It's got three different brass bells, thinking of getting a big 4" brass meditation bell next. Next upgrade is either a front brake or a heavy dyno/drum brake combo. The original wheels are for carrying 200lbs loads of firewood. Don't need that. Right now have Schwalbe 2.35" Big Apple tires. 30psi is plenty.

Chris249
04-13-2017, 09:30 PM
Bike Friday has a range of performance folders that are cool. They are smaller wheels, but they ride like "big" bikes. Yes, drop bars :)

Dahon also has some mid sized wheel,folders with some performance oriented geometry and components. Not,sure about drop bars on them.

There are also many bikes with "couplers" that allow the frame to be disassembled into pieces. Sort of non-traditional folders.

Where did you sling paychecks and summons? I did time on the streets of SF in the early 90s. That's when I learned how to really skid a fixed wheel well. :)

Peace,
RobertI'm tempted to the coupler idea, but I'll have to see how quickly they can be put together. We'd like to be able to fold them quickly enough that it's practical to do when we are putting them into the dinghy, etc. I can't find a drop-bar Dahon. It's interesting to see the BF but I have to confess I'm still dubious about the performance and (I have to admit it) the looks of the small wheel bikes.

I worked as a courier in Sydney, Oz, for about six months. Pretty intense there; it's got no bike infrastructure and in those days the drivers had no bike sense at all. It's improved dramatically. Where I live now has good infrastructure, a huge (per capita) cycling scene, and the drivers are mostly damn good.

LeeG
04-13-2017, 09:33 PM
The mention of boats and folding bikes leads me to ask whether anyone here has much experience with "performance" folders. We definitely plan to take bikes when we go cruising, but the cycling I do ranges from utility (ie we do most of our shopping on our bikes) to multi-day touring and track and road racing, so a normal small-wheel folding bike isn't going to cut it.

We need something with drop bars and the ability to take racks and a fairly aggressive riding position; even when I was a courier and spent 10 hours a day on the bike I found that the "sit up and beg" position is uncomfortable for me. The Montague range looks to be one possibility, but it's only got flat bars and much as I want to have a flat-bar bike, they just are not comfortable for me.

You are asking for too many things in one bike if you want a road bike, track bike, utility bike and folder. With Bike Friday you can dial in the seat/handlebar/crank position exactly where you want it to be then deal with the compromises in 20" wheels. I've had two BFs. Toured a bit on one. I suggest a larger diameter tire for a given use compared to 700c wheels. 1.6" Marathon Supremes feel comparable to 35mm Supremes. I toured with a 20" x 1.6" Supreme on the rear and a 2.0 Fat Apple on the front. I preferred front panniers, small duffle vertical on steerer tube, and expandable rear bag on rear rack over their set up of rear panniers set high and aft to clear heels.
Your preferred posture can be set up on these bikes but they don't pack down small. If you are fixed on 700c wheels and frame you can probably make do by storing the wheels in one place and the frame/bars/drivetrain mess in another. My two BFs fit bagged up in a quarter berth

Jimmy W
04-14-2017, 03:13 AM
You can't get one new, but it is possible to put drop bars on a Raleigh Twenty.

http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/images/johntwen2.jpg

http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/images/8906n06B26Twenty%20parked.jpg

The Bigfella
04-14-2017, 05:25 AM
Drop bars? Bugger that... let's go the other way. I told a lie earlier, my Cadex is a CFM3... not a 2.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Randoms-5/i-hfPzFjr/0/X3/tredly-X3.jpg

I threw some street tyres on it, a new computer... which I never got working and some new brake blocks a couple of years back when I was recovering from the tibial plateau fracture. I certainly haven't done anything near the type of riding I used to do back in the early to mid 90's.

I think it's time to watch a DIY Youtube or two. The front rings are selecting only the two small gears... and I'm getting no changes at the rear. Tune up time

Chris249
04-14-2017, 05:53 AM
You are asking for too many things in one bike if you want a road bike, track bike, utility bike and folder. With Bike Friday you can dial in the seat/handlebar/crank position exactly where you want it to be then deal with the compromises in 20" wheels. I've had two BFs. Toured a bit on one. I suggest a larger diameter tire for a given use compared to 700c wheels. 1.6" Marathon Supremes feel comparable to 35mm Supremes. I toured with a 20" x 1.6" Supreme on the rear and a 2.0 Fat Apple on the front. I preferred front panniers, small duffle vertical on steerer tube, and expandable rear bag on rear rack over their set up of rear panniers set high and aft to clear heels.
Your preferred posture can be set up on these bikes but they don't pack down small. If you are fixed on 700c wheels and frame you can probably make do by storing the wheels in one place and the frame/bars/drivetrain mess in another. My two BFs fit bagged up in a quarter berth

I shouldn't have mentioned track bike, but I do want to keep my track legs in something like shape, so that means something that has and will take some reasonably intense bursts. My non-folding CX bike does a pretty damn good job of combining road, utility, light MTB and touring. Obviously there would be compromises inherent in a folder, such as extra weight and flex, but it's just a bit odd that no full-size folder seems to come with drop bars.

Thanks for the set-up tips with the BF. We may end up with something like that. At the moment the Montagues look the closest thing to what I want, but whether they can take drops is the issue.

LeeG
04-14-2017, 06:57 AM
Chris, I don't see any reason you can't install drops, just make sure the brake levers match the brakes. The BF drop bars are take apart. I've heard coupled bikes take longer than folders to reassemble.

Mike.Higgins.94301
04-14-2017, 12:59 PM
I have taken the following bike (a Richey Breakaway) all over the world in a checkable piece of luggage( L+W+H<62 inches). As LeeG suggests, it takes longer to setup - about 15 minutes. However, once assembled it is a fully functional bike.

http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r483/mikehiggins94301/Munster-2%20-%20RESIZED_zpslmx824x8.jpg (http://s1168.photobucket.com/user/mikehiggins94301/media/Munster-2%20-%20RESIZED_zpslmx824x8.jpg.html)

I setup my bike with a fixed gear and one rim brake. However, that is because I mostly use it for short rides, before or after work. The extra parts needed to make it a more typical multispeed bike would fit in the same suitcase and add a few minutes to the assembly time. For several years I took this bike to Minnesota for the MS 150, a two day ride from Duluth to Minneapolis. It is fine for longer rides. A Breakaway frame disassembles into two pieces using a pair of connectors located at the top of the seat tube and just above the bottom bracket on the down tube. The assembled frame is stiff and light - bike shown in photo weighs 15 pounds. I have only had more conventional connectors on a triple tandem frame; however, I believe that Richey's connectors are cheaper and lighter.

amish rob
04-14-2017, 01:21 PM
I have taken the following bike (a Richey Breakaway) all over the world in a checkable piece of luggage( L+W+H<62 inches). As LeeG suggests, it takes longer to setup - about 15 minutes. However, once assembled it is a fully functional bike.

http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r483/mikehiggins94301/Munster-2%20-%20RESIZED_zpslmx824x8.jpg (http://s1168.photobucket.com/user/mikehiggins94301/media/Munster-2%20-%20RESIZED_zpslmx824x8.jpg.html)

I setup my bike with a fixed gear and one rim brake. However, that is because I mostly use it for short rides, before or after work. The extra parts needed to make it a more typical multispeed bike would fit in the same suitcase and add a few minutes to the assembly time. For several years I took this bike to Minnesota for the MS 150, a two day ride from Duluth to Minneapolis. It is fine for longer rides. A Breakaway frame disassembles into two pieces using a pair of connectors located at the top of the seat tube and just above the bottom bracket on the down tube. The assembled frame is stiff and light - bike shown in photo weighs 15 pounds. I have only had more conventional connectors on a triple tandem frame; however, I believe that Richey's connectors are cheaper and lighter.
Oh, yes. Exactly. I like Tom.
Be careful with those clipless pedals on a fixed wheel, though. Clipless pedal are easy to come out of accidentally, and even with a rim brake (especially only a front) it can be catastrophic.

Did I tell you how much I like that bike? :) I'd need risers, though. Too acute a hip angle and I suffer, anymore.

Peace,
Robert

Beowolf
04-14-2017, 10:14 PM
Back to the OP. Our 13 year old is getting the Co-op DRT 1.1 for Easter. It will be the last bike we buy for him. (Hopefully) He'll use it to commute around the neighborhoods and perhaps some trail riding. He's stepping up from a department store Schwin mountain bike and wants to stick with that style.

Of course, shortly after ordering it, he tried out my Trek hybrid. "Dad, it's so fast and smooth! I didn't know bikes could be like that!" Now I can't keep him off of it.

We pick it up next Tuesday. I'll update this after that.

amish rob
04-14-2017, 11:00 PM
Back to the OP. Our 13 year old is getting the Co-op DRT 1.1 for Easter. It will be the last bike we buy for him. (Hopefully) He'll use it to commute around the neighborhoods and perhaps some trail riding. He's stepping up from a department store Schwin mountain bike and wants to stick with that style.

Of course, shortly after ordering it, he tried out my Trek hybrid. "Dad, it's so fast and smooth! I didn't know bikes could be like that!" Now I can't keep him off of it.

We pick it up next Tuesday. I'll update this after that.

Awesome! I hope he loves it. Please do keep us posted.

Peace,
Robert

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
04-16-2017, 02:29 AM
No snob here. Honest.

I rail regularly for real bikes. Instead, year after year, EVERYONE puts out more gimmicks.

I'm fairly anti-suspension, for example, especially on low end bikes. I also think tubeless tires are a dumb idea that just continues to be forced onto people. And disk brakes. They are all finicky garbage. Please, please, somebody in the bike industry figure out floating calipers or rotors. Please. And, please, everyone except a few specialists, knock it off with the hydraulic brakes.

I like the bikes, for what they are, but I still think bikes should be more practical across the board. I think too many people have fancy gimmick bikes. 2200 for 105 and Carbon with no provenance is worrisome. The WTC in Taipei is FULL of carbon bike parts. You can literally walk around in circles, floor after floor, and pick bike part after bike part. Generally mixed in with pumps or shoes or tennis rackets or some oddment. :)

For the record, my "nice" bike is a steel framed rigid mountain bike with rim brakes. I have two steel track bikes I don't race anymore. No road bike or tri bike, at all. In fact, I'm looking at a LWB recumbent. I am unable to pedal my tri bike with pain free ferocity.
My everyday bike is a single speed coaster brake chain guard affair. It looks like the bike lane bike. THAT'S the type bike I get excited about. Transportation, not toys. :)

I don't really care for REI as a place, but that is mostly because that isn't my outdoor style. There,certainly is a lot of stuff to see inside one. They seem to be a cool company, and I certainly wish them luck.

Part of me wishes they would have just worked on some corporate partnerships, though, rather than house-branding again.

Peace,
Robert

Recumbents are super comfy on the flat, but a drag on hills, they stress your knees more because you can't stand up to climb, keeping your leg straight when the most force applied. If you crank up the hills in granny, maybe not so bad. I have a LWB is storage, did one tour on it with a trailer decades ago. Much more stable on fast descents with a heavy trailer than a diamond frame. I originally got a 'bent because of hand pain, and it had a super comfy seat and under-seat steering, when I stopped to eat I would just stay seated on the bike it was so comfy. But I live where there are hills now. My main ride is a 20" wheel folder, I set the handlebar a little higher than the seat and have a set of clip-on bars with raised forearm pads, that takes the pressure off my hands on the long cruises.

I used to buy at REI whenever possible due to their "satisfaction guarantee", lifetime, bring it back if unsatisfied. I only did that on stuff I never used or something that failed. Evidently too many people abused the policy so I just discovered that it is now down to one year. I discovered this when I needed service on an $80 insulation-filled air mattress that has a pinhole leak, never been outside with it, leak is right at the perfect center, a bonding and fold line so I suspect that is why the inner seal failed. Anyway, REI won't exchange it so I have to mess with the manufacturer, who it seems is standing behind it, but I have to ship it back to them. Was nice when I could just handle things locally. Now, Amazon has better customer service than REI. Sad.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
04-16-2017, 02:48 AM
You are asking for too many things in one bike if you want a road bike, track bike, utility bike and folder. With Bike Friday you can dial in the seat/handlebar/crank position exactly where you want it to be then deal with the compromises in 20" wheels. I've had two BFs. Toured a bit on one. I suggest a larger diameter tire for a given use compared to 700c wheels. 1.6" Marathon Supremes feel comparable to 35mm Supremes. I toured with a 20" x 1.6" Supreme on the rear and a 2.0 Fat Apple on the front. I preferred front panniers, small duffle vertical on steerer tube, and expandable rear bag on rear rack over their set up of rear panniers set high and aft to clear heels.
Your preferred posture can be set up on these bikes but they don't pack down small. If you are fixed on 700c wheels and frame you can probably make do by storing the wheels in one place and the frame/bars/drivetrain mess in another. My two BFs fit bagged up in a quarter berth

I love folders and have researched them heavily. Pay attention. The Brompton stores very small (because it folds in 3 pieces and not just 2, and also the drivetrain folds to the inside so greasy chain not on the outside, quite smart) and is of high quality, but the 16" wheels require an internal gear hub to have a high enough top gear. Heavier, and difficult to get internal hub service in East Elbonia, bearings may not be as durable with heavy touring loads, yadda yadda. And, because of the rear suspension and small tires, it's impossible to mount a conventional large rear rack for big panniers. For this reason I prefer 20" wheel folders, with a 52x11 and cushy tires, I have a tall gear that is just enough. Taller would be nice to pedal down hills but I can deal with coasting there. I do need a bit lower gear than the 52x30, but don't want bigger gaps between gears, so I'll probably get the adapter to mount a front derailleur and double crank; needs a $30 adaptor because the seat tube is oversize. And, with the correct rack that puts the entire pannier aft of the rear axle and standard height, I have plenty of heel clearance with big panniers. Trunk bag on top, small front rack with panniers and trunk, and a small backpack hanging forward of the handlebars. Amazing how much groceries I can carry. The seat post and handlebar stem are not parallel but diverge in angle, so as you raise both up for a taller person, the "effective top tube length" increases accordingly. With a set of clip-on bars, it fits me was well as my old racer. Good torsional stiffness on the new folders too, climbs well. Just a bit twitchier on fast descents, keep your hands on the wheel. When I get a chance I'll probably fit cow-horn bars with grab-ons (dense foam) in place of the straight bars, 'horns and clip-ons are my preferred setup. You can get a cheap 20" wheel folder for a little over a $100 on Amazon, but the components are junk and they weigh 38 lbs. For about $500 you can get a decent 20" wheel folder, 28 lbs, I have one, but I just found a crack in the frame and am hashing it out with the manufacturer; They've told me to pound sand, that was really stupid because I've just drafted a long letter to the CPSC with a very detailed analysis of the failure mode due to design defect (incredibly elementary, actually), cited many other failures seen online, and cited a past recall notice for a similar failure from a different manufacturer which caused a forced recall; Screwing me was the must stupid thing they could do, and I warned them of such a week ago, all to save what is probably $200-300 their cost for a new frame. So I cannot recommend that brand yet. Bike Fridays are good quality I have heard, originally they made ones that could be taken apart for travel but didn't fold quick but now they do. But expensive. Now, there is a new bike called a Helix, made from titanium in Canada, very innovative, 24" wheels but folds within an inch or two of the Brompton, and price parity at $1600 for the 11 speed external gear model. Folds not much large than the wheels, because the front fork also folds. Looks brilliant. I expected higher price. Doesn't get any better, I think, you don't want carbon for a folder, too easy to damage the frame. If I get a new bike, that'll be it. Go look it up. BUT... I don't see provisions for mounting a rack on it. If you go with a 20" folder, message me and I'll give the details on what rear rack works best and such, send you pics of mine.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
04-16-2017, 04:04 AM
Swmbo has just bought a Giant Half Way folder - single sided 20" wheels at both ends, fixed gear - 11Kg or 13 with the rack - works very well for her.
Sprog has a Brompton - 3x2 gearing - no problems with the hub gears in two years of daily use.
Claims that its singular feature is that he has never been refused admission to a restaurant with it.

LeeG
04-16-2017, 08:13 AM
"Oh that Bob", on my BFs I installed cheap conventional 26"/700c rear racks with the struts cut down so the platform rested just above the rear fender. Instead of panniers in the back I used this Jandd rack bag that expands up so it fits perfectly under the seat and against the seat post mast. With a couple bungies it's held in place well. I just hate panniers that sit high and over the rear wheel for what it does to handling.
If more is needed then front panniers and medium duffle strapped vertically to steerer works. The gear set up was a single chainring with Shimano Capreo 9spd cassette w 9-27 tooth cogs. I'm still not convinced that's the best option as shifting seemed finicky and little cogs wear faster. The other BF had a double chainring and Capreo cassette but it also was finicky.
I had them install a Llama front fork so it could take a 2.125 front tire. Schwalbe Big Apple 2.0 rolled as fine as any touring tire with about a 3/4" wide contact patch but more tire is available if there's junky roads. I was descending a mtn in Oregon where I was flying and came around a corner to a rough section of resurfaced road strewn with one in. crushed rock. Fat tires just work better for 20" wheels. On a 700x35 tire I can ride over some section of gravel or soft surfaces "ok" but are unridable on a 20" x 1.5" tire.
http://www.jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FRRPII

amish rob
04-16-2017, 10:30 AM
Recumbents are super comfy on the flat, but a drag on hills, they stress your knees more because you can't stand up to climb, keeping your leg straight when the most force applied. If you crank up the hills in granny, maybe not so bad. I have a LWB is storage, did one tour on it with a trailer decades ago. Much more stable on fast descents with a heavy trailer than a diamond frame. I originally got a 'bent because of hand pain, and it had a super comfy seat and under-seat steering, when I stopped to eat I would just stay seated on the bike it was so comfy. But I live where there are hills now. My main ride is a 20" wheel folder, I set the handlebar a little higher than the seat and have a set of clip-on bars with raised forearm pads, that takes the pressure off my hands on the long cruises.

I used to buy at REI whenever possible due to their "satisfaction guarantee", lifetime, bring it back if unsatisfied. I only did that on stuff I never used or something that failed. Evidently too many people abused the policy so I just discovered that it is now down to one year. I discovered this when I needed service on an $80 insulation-filled air mattress that has a pinhole leak, never been outside with it, leak is right at the perfect center, a bonding and fold line so I suspect that is why the inner seal failed. Anyway, REI won't exchange it so I have to mess with the manufacturer, who it seems is standing behind it, but I have to ship it back to them. Was nice when I could just handle things locally. Now, Amazon has better customer service than REI. Sad.

Sorry, but that's not true about recumbents. No properly fitted bike will strain your knees, and a DD bike will wreck your knees just as fast if you grind a big gear. It's the huge weights manipulated by the knee, and relative position doesn't matter. In fact, most people can generate more power on a recumbent, because the press motion is strong, and your back is well braced against the chair.
I am a rolleur, so I do tend to grind, or mash, but I can change my ways. I regularly ride fixed wheel, and I can still turn 180 rpm smoothly (with my gear, that's about 23 mph)
My problem is simply physical. The acute hip angle needed to ride a DD bike is to much for my damaged back and nerves to handle. I ride regular DD upright bikes all the time, but I ain't trying to drag across the continent pushing a sail, or a flapping handkerchief.
Shoot, I may even jump a bike still, now and again, if I'm sure nobody is looking. I still ride wheelies all the time.:)

Plus, Bob, I live in a super hilly place. I ride the roads of the Climb To Kaiser regularly. All my upside down buds get along just fine on their bents. Oh, and I rode one for a while. Actually, I've ridden all the types at least 500 miles, which is why I know SWB underseat steer is NOT for me. :)

I mentioned before I don't shop REI. They have nothing for me. I do like walking around in there, though, trying to figure out what all those things are.

I think Dahon makes the best all around folders, FWIW. They fold well, quickly and easily, and stow compactly, and they ride nicely. Folding Dahons may be the finest wheelying bikes on the planet, actually. Right after Kona mountain bikes and Sting Rays.

Peace,
Robert