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View Full Version : are we crazy not to try Epoxy alternatives?!



Daniel Noyes
02-28-2017, 08:51 AM
For a group of folk who claim to be concerned with our environment some of us are continually suprised by the amount of toxic chemicals that are selected by ourselves for use in our Boat Building!

have any Petrochemicaly conscious forumites put there money where their mouths are and decided not to build a lapped ply boat due to the amount of Carbon producing materials that go into it's production?

what about less toxic alternatives to Epoxy? has anyone tried coating their new ply creation with an alternative less noxious goop?

then there is always the option of building with old fashion wood...

Gib Etheridge
02-28-2017, 11:24 AM
TIII works for me in most applications, but epoxy has it's place.

upchurchmr
02-28-2017, 11:31 AM
Daniel,

What alternative glue are you suggesting?
Or is this a magical, not yet invented material?

Just how much toxic chemicals are we using?
Enough to match what goes into housing construction or actually a little tiny amount.
How toxic is cured Epoxy to the environment?

Should we consider epoxy in boat building as bad as the little plastic beads in shampoo and lots of other products?

jpatrick
02-28-2017, 11:58 AM
I read this morning in the NY Times that SpaceX has announced plans to send two paying tourists to orbit the moon in 2018. Just consider the environmental impact of such a venture. The little glued lap boat I'm working on kind of pales by comparison. Not that we all shouldn't be aware and do our part, so I'll earn my carbon credits by rowing.

Jeff

Old Dryfoot
02-28-2017, 12:04 PM
That base is already covered.

http://www.ecopoxy.com/

nedL
02-28-2017, 12:08 PM
You don't need to use epoxy (or anything similar) to build a ply lapstrake boat. Thousands have been built with no 'goo'.

Rick in Pender Harbour
02-28-2017, 12:08 PM
Daniel-
Epoxy can be Plant-based. I use Ecopoxy for my boats; although it has more to do with being able to have it shipped by mail to my house, than it's environmental advantages...
Works just like the system three I used to use.

Rick

upchurchmr
02-28-2017, 12:24 PM
Doesn't rowing emit carbon - CO2?

Just kidding. :D

upchurchmr
02-28-2017, 12:25 PM
How about PL Premium by Locktite, a construction adhesive.
Polyurethane I believe.

Is that better?

Daniel Noyes
02-28-2017, 01:21 PM
That base is already covered.

http://www.ecopoxy.com/


Daniel-
Epoxy can be Plant-based. I use Ecopoxy for my boats; although it has more to do with being able to have it shipped by mail to my house, than it's environmental advantages...
Works just like the system three I used to use.

Rick

excellent link!

Rick you compare the Eco Pox to system three, have you tried West System? does the Eco harden a little soft like S3 or quite hard/almost brittle like West?

Daniel Noyes
02-28-2017, 01:24 PM
TIII works for me in most applications, but epoxy has it's place.

Gib this is really the impetus for my question... has anyone tried using TIII like an epoxy with a fiber reinforcement... ?

I got out in the shop this morn and wetted out a piece of Fiberglass tape on a scrap of ply, it wet out very nicely, guess I'll see how it dries by 2morrow morning...

Canoez
02-28-2017, 01:52 PM
Something to keep in mind is that when epoxies that are "100% solids" are properly mixed and cured, they are mostly inert. Certainly they are far more 'eco friendly' than white and red lead.

People are making epoxy resins using plant-based oils rather than petroleum oils as the Ecopoxy folks and their competitors are doing. That said, they're not 100% "green", but are headed that way.

Bob Cleek
02-28-2017, 01:55 PM
This is an interesting topic that has been discussed before. The irony is that most all of the materials formerly used in traditional boatbuilding imposed a relatively minimal "carbon footprint" and, where toxic, really weren't all that dangerous. They were, however, in many instances "outlawed" because they were deemed "not good for the environment" or "toxic." The world is full of toxic materials. Most people survive by learning not to eat, drink, or inject them into their bloodstreams. The problem we now face is that the "ecologically correct" replacement for simple traditional materials often have far greater "carbon footprints" and far greater toxicity. Modern "low VOC" coatings may be theoretically better "for the environment" at the "point of use," but one has to consider what impact their manufacture has on the environment at the "point of production." The classic example is the government subsidized production of ethanol which is added to gasoline to reduce petrochemical use and exhaust particulates. Okay... but the petrochemical consumption of the farm equipment to grow the corn from which the alcohol is distilled and the heat to run the distilleries, and so on, far exceeds the "emission savings" and particulate reduction "at the point of use." Anybody who worries about the environment or their own health is better off using traditional materials when boatbuilding whenever possible. That said, epoxy has its uses, but in my book, slathering gallons of it over fabric and plywood (which has its own huge "carbon footprint" compared to milled grown wood) as an excuse to avoid learning traditional woodworking techniques isn't one of them.

upchurchmr
02-28-2017, 01:56 PM
I've always had a difficult time getting thick Titebond to cure.
When it appears to be finished, it never has good strength.

Looking forward to your test.
Kudos for doing it. :)

JimConlin
02-28-2017, 02:26 PM
In the last year, I've used about four gallons of epoxy and a couple of thousand gallons of vehicle and home heating fuel.
Where are the best savings opportunities?

An old friend described my worrying about the least significant problems as 'mouse milking'.

Monkey Butler
02-28-2017, 02:40 PM
Here I was minding my own business and feeling good about myself for having made the decision to use West System on my frozen snot 35 foot sailboat rebuild. One of the factors being that I thought epoxy was much more eco and bio (me) friendly than polyester.

Have I been misled? Are the Gougens evil? How do I dispose of the 10 gallons of toxic waste that is sitting in the shop?

Gratuitous wood content: I was also planning to laminate new toerails and vacuum bag a veneer transom using the epoxy.

BrianM
02-28-2017, 02:40 PM
This is an interesting topic that has been discussed before. The irony is that most all of the materials formerly used in traditional boatbuilding imposed a relatively minimal "carbon footprint" and, where toxic, really weren't all that dangerous. They were, however, in many instances "outlawed" because they were deemed "not good for the environment" or "toxic." The world is full of toxic materials. Most people survive by learning not to eat, drink, or inject them into their bloodstreams. The problem we now face is that the "ecologically correct" replacement for simple traditional materials often have far greater "carbon footprints" and far greater toxicity. Modern "low VOC" coatings may be theoretically better "for the environment" at the "point of use," but one has to consider what impact their manufacture has on the environment at the "point of production." The classic example is the government subsidized production of ethanol which is added to gasoline to reduce petrochemical use and exhaust particulates. Okay... but the petrochemical consumption of the farm equipment to grow the corn from which the alcohol is distilled and the heat to run the distilleries, and so on, far exceeds the "emission savings" and particulate reduction "at the point of use." Anybody who worries about the environment or their own health is better off using traditional materials when boatbuilding whenever possible. That said, epoxy has its uses, but in my book, slathering gallons of it over fabric and plywood (which has its own huge "carbon footprint" compared to milled grown wood) as an excuse to avoid learning traditional woodworking techniques isn't one of them.

Bob beat me to it....

what about lap-straking with lumber, copper rivets, and making it water-tight via fine woodworking? ahemmmmmm it's been done before.....

Canoez
02-28-2017, 02:58 PM
Here I was minding my own business and feeling good about myself for having made the decision to use West System on my frozen snot 35 foot sailboat rebuild. One of the factors being that I thought epoxy was much more eco and bio (me) friendly than polyester.

Have I been misled? Are the Gougens evil? How do I dispose of the 10 gallons of toxic waste that is sitting in the shop?

Gratuitous wood content: I was also planning to laminate new toerails and vacuum bag a veneer transom using the epoxy.

You can send it my way if it will assuage your guilt. ;)

schoonerjay
02-28-2017, 03:06 PM
Tricky beast to measure, environmental impact! But I want to be sure I understand the original poster's primary concern - are we talking the carbon footprint that goes into making the adhesives, paints, plywood, grown wood, cordage, and fasteners that go into our boats? Are we referring to our personal health with regard to toxic adhesives, paints, wood, and working metals? Or yet again the environmental impact of our finished boats, for instance in terms of bottom paints and substances leaching from the boat into the environment? All valid questions but I'd guess the first.

Hearkening back to undergraduate chemistry studies, I can well remember the volume of reagents "wasted" to generate a relatively small amount of pure product. Additional processes can be used to recover solvents and reagents but at the cost of additional wasted materials, energy, and time. I can well imagine the same is true of the industries manufacturing adhesives and paints on a large scale - even the relatively small amount we use in boatbuilding carries a high degree of industrial waste on the front end. Factor in the transportation costs (EcoPoxy appears to be based in Canada, for instance) for these manufactured products as well as grown wood and plywood and I can see a lot of carbon build-up just to get the raw materials needed to build our boats.

I for one lack the skills and time to build a boat from strictly locally available supplies using only hand tools. I'll therefore be using power tools when necessary/efficient (hand tools for pleasure/efficiency where appropriate) and some degree of adhesives and paints, just like many of us I suppose. But I suppose we can all try to source our materials closest to home. Sure wish I had boatbuilding woods on my lot!

Edited to add - what others said and beat me to it while I left a semi-composed message to simmer too long.

Chris249
02-28-2017, 03:42 PM
Are the fans of "classic construction" also counting the cost of the extra fuel that is often required to transport heavy classic-construction boats around? My car uses significantly more fuel pulling a heavier load. If towing a heavier boat increased my fuel use by 10%, I could use an extra 30kg of fuel per year quite easily. Some of my lightweight boats are now 40-50 years old. How much fuel has been saved over the decades by their lightweight construction?

i'm pretty eco-conscious; we have so many solar panels we pump lots of juice back into the grid, we ride bikes to work and to the market to buy locally-grown produce, we don't eat meat partly because of its eco costs, yada yada yada. Compared to what can be saved every day, the use of epoxy appears to be miniscule and, given the long life of boats, very worthwhile.

One other point - I like doing fine joinery on visible boat parts but it takes me a lot more time. If I did hidden work to the same standard (so I wouldn't need epoxy) it would take many hours more, during which time the heater may well be on in the shed.

Monkey Butler
02-28-2017, 03:45 PM
You can send it my way if it will assuage your guilt. ;)

I'll get back to you on that? In the meanwhile, could I interest you in some used house paint?;);)

Canoez
02-28-2017, 03:46 PM
Let's not forget the cost of getting that Teak or Mahogany out of the woods and from somewhere halfway around the world.

Canoez
02-28-2017, 03:48 PM
I'll get back to you on that? In the meanwhile, could I interest you in some used house paint?;);)

Vinyl. :d

GordC
02-28-2017, 03:55 PM
I guess I would need to know what those alternatives to epoxy are specifically. I would also suggest that modern epoxies have a relatively small carbon foot print when looked at over their extended life time. Modern epoxy is 100% bio degradable all any one needs to do is look at the effect of UV on unprotected epoxy. Are we to believe modern fiberglass boats are more dangerous than wooden boats to the environment, is there any data to back that claim up. Maybe we have to look at the over all big picture of wooden boats to determine the carbon foot print over the last 500 years. For example is the extinction or lack of certain types of mahogany left on the planet. Is that largely due to centuries of boat building? I wonder how much forest depletion occurred prior to 1955 because of boat building, in comparison to the amount of forest depletion after that date. Of course assuming we all subscribe to the scientific theory that forests are indeed carbon sinks. My point being how is the measured carbon foot print over the last 500 years of wooden boat building going to compare to the next 500 years of fiberglass boat building. I would respectfully suggest using epoxy in boat building today is not going to add a measurable amount of damage to the global environment compared to deforestation that can be attributed to boat building over the last 500 years. Of course this is pure speculation.

Dave Wright
02-28-2017, 04:31 PM
That base is already covered.

http://www.ecopoxy.com/


Actually, we have to refer to the MSDS to cover this material, because as far as I can tell, the manufacturer doesn't list all of the ingredients and their proportions. I've heard some call it "green washing." But, if it floats your boat, what the hell, go for it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.westwindhardwood.com/PDF/ecoPoxy/ECOPOXY%2520MSDS%2520SHEETS.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiqvcHB3LPSAhXkqVQKHS7UA5sQFggqMAE&usg=AFQjCNEkgwVYHGcIsIKuFREHNpwIf9SrRQ&sig2=yq4X8PbAKx_WCF_GRw28Ig

Canoez
02-28-2017, 04:58 PM
Actually, we have to refer to the MSDS to cover this material, because as far as I can tell, the manufacturer doesn't list all of the ingredients and their proportions. I've heard some call it "green washing." But, if it floats your boat, what the hell, go for it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.westwindhardwood.com/PDF/ecoPoxy/ECOPOXY%2520MSDS%2520SHEETS.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiqvcHB3LPSAhXkqVQKHS7UA5sQFggqMAE&usg=AFQjCNEkgwVYHGcIsIKuFREHNpwIf9SrRQ&sig2=yq4X8PbAKx_WCF_GRw28Ig

MSDS documents don't list a lot of items and can be considered "trade secrets". Not a surprise there.

Dirc
02-28-2017, 05:24 PM
Use titanium alloy sheets or aluminum? No 'toxic' goo involved, but I bet the cost, and overall environmental impact is greater...
no easy answers on this subject... short of building a real traditional wooden boat from reclaimed lumber, using copper roves etc etc, and sailing / mooring (not a weekend trailer sailor)

upchurchmr
02-28-2017, 05:27 PM
Actually the Dutch were world traveling sailors, partially due to the abundance of big, tall trees suitable for ship building.
They eventually cut all the trees and their empire fell apart.

I can't remember the species of tree, but this was from a Dutchman I met on a business trip.

Dave Wright
02-28-2017, 06:04 PM
MSDS documents don't list a lot of items and can be considered "trade secrets". Not a surprise there.


My point was simple: it's always interesting when a manufacturer tells us how safe a product is, and then the MSDS tells us otherwise.:d

Gib Etheridge
02-28-2017, 06:11 PM
Gib this is really the impetus for my question... has anyone tried using TIII like an epoxy with a fiber reinforcement... ?

I got out in the shop this morn and wetted out a piece of Fiberglass tape on a scrap of ply, it wet out very nicely, guess I'll see how it dries by 2morrow morning...

Good to see you trying that Daniel, but since TIII is not even a little bit good for gap filling I'm not too optimistic.

WX
02-28-2017, 06:27 PM
Gib this is really the impetus for my question... has anyone tried using TIII like an epoxy with a fiber reinforcement... ?

I got out in the shop this morn and wetted out a piece of Fiberglass tape on a scrap of ply, it wet out very nicely, guess I'll see how it dries by 2morrow morning...
Of course then there is the fibreglass.:)
Back in the 50s a car body was built from Hemp resin. The demonstration showed them hitting it with a sledge hammer without effect.

Reynard38
02-28-2017, 06:35 PM
Doesn't rowing emit carbon - CO2?

Just kidding. :D

And Mexican food Methane......

wizbang 13
02-28-2017, 08:16 PM
Come back on with your pine dory in 35 years and ask that question again.

Tom Wilkinson
02-28-2017, 08:57 PM
Come back on with your pine dory in 35 years and ask that question again.

The one he said he is putting a fiberglass and epoxy bottom on and sealing knots with epoxy?

Mo 'Poxy
02-28-2017, 10:44 PM
I am all for trying new approaches, although my venture into the use of Loctite PL demonstrated its flaws to me.http://boatbw.blogspot.com/2016/08/pl-failure.html?m=1

Let me re-state that, I'm all for other people trying new approaches. I've experienced the difference between the "leading edge" and the "bleeding egde."

I'm an old fuddy-dud stuck in a rut because of my 10 builds and 2+ decades of success with epoxy. That does not mean there may be alternatives out there. It probably only means that I am myopic.

Let us not forget that epoxy was a brand new concept at one time.

Let us also not forget the episode of Myth Busters where they built a boat out of frozen newspaper. It worked great, until it sunk.

MN Dave
03-01-2017, 12:43 AM
One of these days, pDCPD might be available in a more user friendly formulation.
http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/backgrounder-proxima-pdcpd

Actually, we have to refer to the MSDS to cover this material, because as far as I can tell, the manufacturer doesn't list all of the ingredients and their proportions. I've heard some call it "green washing." But, if it floats your boat, what the hell, go for it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.westwindhardwood.com/PDF/ecoPoxy/ECOPOXY%2520MSDS%2520SHEETS.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiqvcHB3LPSAhXkqVQKHS7UA5sQFggqMAE&usg=AFQjCNEkgwVYHGcIsIKuFREHNpwIf9SrRQ&sig2=yq4X8PbAKx_WCF_GRw28Ig

Having had to read and catalog the ingredients in every MSDS for the chemicals used by several aerospace companies (what a PITA), I kinda learned to recognize what they are trying to obscure. The Ecopoxy MSDS isn't great, but doesn't really hide anything toxic, just leaves out anything non-toxic. The soybean oil derivative mentioned in the advertising rubbish is apparently non-toxic so it does not have to be listed, so they can legally skip it. Take a look at West system's MSDSs and you will find the same or similar ingredients, just spelled right and using more accurate descriptions. Can't say what the misspelled "FLORA MICROBILE OIL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbial_enhanced_oil_recovery)" is doing there. Of course near 0% is less than 15%, so who knows?

Bottom line, it is a plain old bisphenol A epoxy just like almost all of the others we are familiar with. Get it on your skin too many times and you will develop an allergy.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/MSDS/MSDS105.pdf
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/MSDS/MSDS205.pdf

On the plus side, they have a potable water tank coating. That takes some testing to get certified, so it should be somewhat safer than ignoring West's mildly worded advice not to use their resin for water tanks. The other plus side is that it seems to be more readily available in Canada, which might help our frozen friends who think that Minnesota has a warm southern climate.

Dave Wright
03-01-2017, 01:10 AM
Bottom line, it is a plain old bisphenol A epoxy just like almost all of the others we are familiar with. Get it on your skin too many times and you will develop an allergy.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/MSDS/MSDS105.pdf
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/MSDS/MSDS205.pdf

.

Yes, that's correct.

I also noticed at least one supplier touting his bisphenol A free epoxy, telling us that we're safe from toxic bisphemol A. Of course his epoxy has bisphenol S or B, and it turns out that these bisphenols wind up in concentrations in humans similar to the A concentrations. The adverse effects are very likely similar too, but salesmen continue to find customers.

MN Dave
03-01-2017, 01:28 AM
Yes, that's correct.

I also noticed at least one supplier touting his bisphenol A free epoxy, telling us that we're safe from toxic bisphemol A. Of course his epoxy has bisphenol S or B, and it turns out that these bisphenols wind up in concentrations in humans similar to the A concentrations. The adverse effects are very likely similar too, but salesmen continue to find customers.
"The thing is that Mr. Dibbler can even sell sausages to people who have bought them off him before."
-- Now that's marketing (Terry Pratchett, Moving Pictures) Three?

Daniel Noyes
03-01-2017, 01:09 PM
The one he said he is putting a fiberglass and epoxy bottom on and sealing knots with epoxy?

the one I am searching for an epoxy alternative to do the bottom with and hit the knots with... the one that has 8 plank scarfs on the entire hull with 2 pumps of epoxy per scarf... 16 pumps of epoxy in the whole 20' ocean going hull ... so far.

https://scontent.fbed1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16903387_10210865175322823_3266663836224288239_o.j pg?oh=03c0f84766e834345463e12c61b44ab7&oe=59442502


actually the TIII experiment with fiberglass cloth is looking awesome, need to try it again with a larger pice but if the second test goes as well I will be experimenting with glass and TIII on the bottom and garboard rather than epoxy...

please stay tuned!

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?209778-Centennial

Daniel Noyes
03-01-2017, 01:12 PM
Come back on with your pine dory in 35 years and ask that question again.
the original is 140 years old... I could say "come back with your lapped ply boat in 140 years"... :D

upchurchmr
03-01-2017, 01:24 PM
What do you mean - the test looks awesome?

I hope you are not going to test by looks?
How are you going to test the strength?

How about a picture.

newboatgal
03-01-2017, 02:05 PM
Daniel , I appreciate what you are doing and thanks for posting. I wish those who don't agree would just turn the page.

upchurchmr
03-01-2017, 02:28 PM
I wish he would just show us how good it is.
There is always something to be learned.

This might be it.

Greg Nolan
03-01-2017, 03:00 PM
Modern epoxy is 100% bio degradable all any one needs to do is look at the effect of UV on unprotected epoxy. Are we to believe modern fiberglass boats are more dangerous than wooden boats to the environment . . .

Epoxy in composit fiberglass consturction is amost always well-protected against UV by pigments added to, or at least covering, the epoxy. In such use, it is hardly bio-degradable. Also not bio-degradable if well-buried in a landfill -- maybe after a couple of centuries is will degrade, but it is not something you want to add to your compost pile. And of course, the glass itself is not at all bio-degraadable -- glass, in whatever form, is just about forever, And both the manufacture of glass and the shaping of glass consume huge amounts of energy. I know little about the manufacturing of epoxy, but I assume some amount of energy is expended in making the stuff. Certainly wooden boat-building over the last 500 years used a pretty good amount of wood -- but sompared to houses, furniture, and paper, has it really been that much? I suspect that the long term impacts of 500 yeafs of fiberglass boat construction, including the environmental costs and impacts of the manufacture of the materials, will be substantially greater than the long term environmental impacts of centuries of wooden boat building.

JimConlin
03-01-2017, 05:47 PM
Is the longevity of FRP such a problem?
There are a couple of FRP boats in my family that are over fifty years old and still functioning nicely and they might well see another fifty.
Not many wooden boats reach half that age.

MW Jones
03-01-2017, 09:13 PM
Epoxy was developed and is still used to line steel cans, and are safer longer lasting than tin cans with lead seams. That is not to say that the process of using epoxy is risk free, but fully cured epoxy has minimal health risks. With both traditional boatbuilding materials and contemporary products- cleanliness and efficient use of materials is critical to the safe handling of toxic materials. Avoid getting uncured epoxy (paint, bedding compounds, oil, etc.) on skin and clothing, do not use solvents to clean materials from your skin, use soap/hand cleaner.

We should avoid creating more waste in all aspects of our lives.

Steamboat
03-01-2017, 09:40 PM
Daniel-
Epoxy can be Plant-based. I use Ecopoxy for my boats; although it has more to do with being able to have it shipped by mail to my house, than it's environmental advantages...
Works just like the system three I used to use.

Rick

I fear the environmental advantages of 'plant based' epoxy is largely marketing. Besides, once polymerized it is pretty innocuous unlike red led.

Daniel Noyes
03-01-2017, 09:49 PM
Daniel , I appreciate what you are doing and thanks for posting. I wish those who don't agree would just turn the page.

thanks! don't feel too bad about the push back thats part of why i post here, if everyone just agrees, I learn alot less.

Daniel Noyes
03-01-2017, 09:52 PM
What do you mean - the test looks awesome?

I hope you are not going to test by looks?
How are you going to test the strength?

How about a picture.

I mean the glass is tight to the wood with all weave filled and a matte finish... it looks like I vacume bagged it. I think the tape I used is 4 oz cloth...

when i try to peel it off beginning with a loose un wetted corner it begins to rip along the weave rather than pull off, then the glass parts rather than the piece peeling off...

Daniel Noyes
03-01-2017, 09:59 PM
Epoxy was developed and is still used to line steel cans, and are safer longer lasting than tin cans with lead seams. That is not to say that the process of using epoxy is risk free, but fully cured epoxy has minimal health risks. With both traditional boatbuilding materials and contemporary products- cleanliness and efficient use of materials is critical to the safe handling of toxic materials. Avoid getting uncured epoxy (paint, bedding compounds, oil, etc.) on skin and clothing, do not use solvents to clean materials from your skin, use soap/hand cleaner.

We should avoid creating more waste in all aspects of our lives.

I have no concerns about the cured resin, I just despise working with the goop... and I am already living in a 3 room house with the thermostat set at 45 and drive a 510 CC motorcycle wherever practicable.... so as a boatbuilder the next logical frontier is Epoxy Resins!

oh also if you get epoxy on your skin the best way to clean up before it hardens is Vinegar, youll stink but it's very non toxic! :D

upchurchmr
03-01-2017, 10:08 PM
Older motorcycles are usually worse on emissions / mile than a modern car.
Shame on you. :D

earling2
03-01-2017, 10:09 PM
I don't know if this was covered yet but they're calling it "biodegradable" resin---

Incredible boat anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSQJPvE86-w

sailnstink
03-01-2017, 10:09 PM
actually the TIII experiment with fiberglass cloth is looking awesome, need to try it again with a larger pice but if the second test goes as well I will be experimenting with glass and TIII on the bottom and garboard rather than epoxy...

please stay tuned!

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?209778-Centennial
I built a Bolger brick out of crap plywood and the outer veneer split and raised in sections. Repaired it using TIII and fiberglass window screen mesh. Not the whole bottom just sections most were around 10" x 10" Laid the mesh on, filled halfway with TIII, let dry for half an hour and added a second layer. Boat was left outside, abused, and the patches lasted several years, were still good when the boat was bonfired. Also I have done very small fillets with TIII and flour. Has to be really thin, thick TIII will skin over and stay soft. The fillets were not structural, just done to keep water out, no idea if a TIII fillet adds strength. TIII is a lot more useful than it gets credit for.

Daniel Noyes
03-01-2017, 10:20 PM
Older motorcycles are usually worse on emissions / mile than a modern car.
Shame on you. :D

2008 fuel injected Husqvarna.
oh it's great on gas and a ton of fun... but it is a bit of a gas snob only sipping from the finest (highest octane) vintage.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.eWZQSqDZNrHtmcPfmEhKWgEsD5&pid=15.1&P=0&w=217&h=181

Daniel Noyes
03-01-2017, 10:22 PM
I built a Bolger brick out of crap plywood and the outer veneer split and raised in sections. Repaired it using TIII and fiberglass window screen mesh. Not the whole bottom just sections most were around 10" x 10" Laid the mesh on, filled halfway with TIII, let dry for half an hour and added a second layer. Boat was left outside, abused, and the patches lasted several years, were still good when the boat was bonfired.

hmmm sounds good...


soemone else must have thought of using TIII on glass before us... maybe time for a pro Google search.

Rick in Pender Harbour
03-02-2017, 01:05 AM
excellent link!

Rick you compare the Eco Pox to system three, have you tried West System? does the Eco harden a little soft like S3 or quite hard/almost brittle like West?
Hi Daniel
I've not used much West System, but the ecopoxy is not really brittle when it is cured (judging by the expensive hockey pucks of left-overs).

davebrown
03-02-2017, 01:11 AM
I hate epoxy and use it more than I should. I tried using TIII on a couple of things to experiment, and one thing that seemed evident was that proper bonding with that type of glue requires pressure. That seems to exclude a number of uses, like for example, TIII for a hollow mast--the joints are blind and glue squeeze out would probably not be enough of an indication of pressure. I thought I might use P+L Premium on a mizzen mast for maybe a 20 sq. ft sail, and see how it does...I wouldn't try it on a mainmast right out of the gate. There is a more expensive version of P+L right now locally for $7 a tube--half the price of epoxy per ounce, roughly. It claims to be better, whatever that means, but for sure we are talking about mechanical bonds and there is a limit to effectiveness. I also pulled an unfinished, unpainted mast out of my shed today, which was built with Raka, and I was annoyed to see a number of splits in the epoxy seams. It had been in a leaky shed for the rainy season and proves the point that pox does not suffer cycling very well.

MN Dave
03-02-2017, 03:06 PM
Hi Daniel
I've not used much West System, but the ecopoxy is not really brittle when it is cured (judging by the expensive hockey pucks of left-overs).
You need to look at thin pieces. e.g.:
One layer of 6 oz cloth on thin flexible plywood, say 1/4" okoume and measure te bed radius where it starts to crack.
1/16 inch thick sheet, bend radius to crack.

hmmm sounds good...

someone else must have thought of using TIII on glass before us... maybe time for a pro Google search.
Uhm, not exactly pro (titebond 3 fiberglass) first hit said that PVA was not good with fiberglass, but no detail:
https://www.glen-l.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15362
link within that hit: http://www.oldbrownglue.com/pdf/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf The big monkey foaming glue was the worst. Confirms what we always say about it, but if you look at strength by joint type, it is not so bad in a tight joint, but very weak in a loose joint.



The chart shows the glues ranked by the average force it took to break their joints. To give a guide to each glue’s relative performance, its average joint strength is shown as a percentage of that of the strongest glue. We rated Type I PVA as the best overall, with interior yellow glue (PVA) as the best value.








GLUE
JOINT FIT
MAPLE

OAK

IPÉ

Average by joint type
Average





JOINT STRENGTH (LB.)
JOINT STRENGTH (LB.)
JOINT STRENGTH (LB.)
AVG. JOINT STRENGTH (LB.)
AVG. JOINT STRENGTH (LB.)
AVG. JOINT STRENGTH (LB.)
JOINT STRENGTH AS % OF TYPE I PVA GLUE
COMMENTS


Type I PVA glue (waterproof)
Tight

Snug

Loose


1842

1700

1593

1843

1822

1603



2554

2733

2525



2080

2085

1907


100%

100%

100%

.
.
2024

.
.
.
100%

This proved to be a good all-around glue with no weakness in any of the woods or joint fits. Combined with its ease of use and moderate cost, this glue wins the best overall label.








Slow-set epoxy
Tight

Snug

Loose
1690

1680

1635

1908

1832

1557

2425

2712

2503

2008

2075

1898

97%

100%

100%

.
.
1994





.
.
99%






The betting before the test was that this glue would be the strongest. It came in a close second, but given its high cost and longer preparation time, this was disappointing. In particular, it didn’t prove to be the clear choice for gap-filling.










PVA glue
Tight

Snug

Loose
1737

1543

1474



1769

1684

1537

2696

2842

2036

2067

2023

1682

99%

97%

88%

.
.
1924

.
.
95%

Many woodworkers will be relieved to see that their first-choice glue performed so well. Amazingly, it produced the strongest bonds on tight and snug ipé joints. This glue is the best value.

















Liquid hide glue
Tight

Snug

Loose
1468

1516

1436
1850

1699

1521
1716

1779

1374
1678

1665

1444

81%

80%

76%
.
.
1595

.
.
79%

Not as strong as epoxy or the PVAs, this glue still gave a very credible performance. it performed particularly well on oak, but was relatively less strong on ipé.Proponents of hide glue have never claimed that it is as strong as PVA, but instead promote its reversibility and compatibility with stains and finish.








Hot hide glue
Tight

Snug

Loose
1488

1412

1485

1847

1765

1618

1769

1459

936

1701

1545

1346

82%

74%

71%

.
.
1531

.
.
76%

From this test, it appears that hot hide glue is only a little weaker than yellow glue and is stronger on oak.









Polyurethane
Tight

Snug

Loose

1414

1336

564

1491

1055

571

1875

1455

716

1593

1282

617

77%

61%

32%

.
.
1164

.
.
58%

The surprise of the test was this glue’s poor showing. The snug joints were poor, and the loose joints were unacceptable. Polyurethane may be a tough finish, but it isn’t a tough glue.

phiil
03-02-2017, 06:06 PM
Have I been misled? Are the Gougens evil? How do I dispose of the 10 gallons of toxic waste that is sitting in the shop?
[/QUOTE]
Text me your address. I'll be there shortly to relieve you of the environmental burden.

MW Jones
03-02-2017, 09:28 PM
[QUOTEoh also if you get epoxy on your skin the best way to clean up before it hardens is Vinegar, youll stink but it's very non toxic! :D[/QUOTE]

Actually the vinegar acts as a solvent and thins the resin thus more easily absorbed by the skin.

tdem
03-03-2017, 04:12 AM
Perhaps what you need is "poor mans fibreglass", see this instructable (http://www.instructables.com/id/Poor-Mans-Fiberglass-make-nearly-anything-weatherp/). Basically just cloth and titebond. They use it over polystyrene which is a whole other environmental can of worms.

I guess the traditional alternative is paint and canvas which I have used previously to waterproof and protect the chines of a tiny dinghy. Very effective. Some people have used this as a fibreglass alternative over the hull. Just an old bed sheet and some paint.

upchurchmr
03-03-2017, 08:06 AM
I'd seriously question almost anything on "Instructables".
There was once a PVC pipe and plastic sheet boat - they claimed was a success.
It collapsed at dock when the owner got in it. Heck of a success and cheap to build. r<

Thorne
03-03-2017, 09:35 AM
I constantly use PL Premium construction adhesive in place of epoxy when I can, when it is safe and effective, and when it won't spoil the looks of the application. But for critical joints and coating I still use quality epoxy.

Decades ago there were some posts here by Chief Red Elk about using various glues with polyester fabric as a sort of poor-man's fiberglass, but I don't remember the details. An interesting concept but I'd want to do a lot of testing before trying that process on anything important.

SBrookman
03-03-2017, 11:52 AM
I'm using DAP Poly Pro on the skiff, it says right on the front good for above or below the waterline. Must be OK. Using epoxy for coating the bottom, fillets, and some fairing.
I'm looking forward to hearing more about Eco-Poxy as I'd like to go that way once my supply of WEST is done.
http://stevebrookman.com/Dap.jpg

MN Dave
03-03-2017, 01:09 PM
are we crazy (yes) ...
not to try Epoxy alternatives?! (Probably not)I don't know how en-virus-mental it is, but should we consider phenol-formaldehydes here as an alternative to epoxy? There have been a few threads on Cascover, which was a sheathing of Nylon bonded with a mix of serious elbow grease, money and Cascophen.

Google site:http://forum.woodenboat.com (https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforum.woodenboat.com+ caspasim&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=site:http:%2F%2Fforum.woodenboat.com+cascover&*) cascover

http://forum.woodenboat.com/archive/index.php/t-204440.html

Cascover sheathing sounds interesting. I have never heard of it before, so I looked to see what I could find.

***Warning*** Google expertise to follow:
It seems to last a long time and is supposed to be resistant to worms. No one gave any specifics on the Nylon, so I would assume that the ballistic Nylon used to cover SOF boats would suffice. [edit found several references to fine nylon scrim] The adhesive, Cascophen (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/cascophentech.pdf) is a resorcinol (http://www.christinedemerchant.com/adhesive-glue-resorcinol.html), now made by Momentive or Hexion (http://www.chempoint.com/products/productsearch?searchmode=anyword&searchtext=CASCOPHEN&1458280763708), whatever they call themselves now, used to be GE. Aircraft Spruce (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/wppages/cascophen.php?recfer=18333) sells it for about the same price as an epoxy. There is a gap filling grade, Cascophen G-1260A (http://www.chempoint.com/products/download?grade=4063&type=tds). that might be better for applying cloth to wood, but where to find it for sale... You probably need to talk to a tech rep at Hexion. Hopefully they are better than the silicone division.
More on cascophen (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?67683-cascophen-any-info).
http://www.classicboat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=10498
http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=6125
(http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=6125)http://www.classicboat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=119997
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/archive/t-28685.html "very difficult stuff to use. It was good in 1968..."
http://www.chempoint.com/products/catalog/hexion/hexion-performance-adhesives/cascophen-prf-resin
http://www.canalworld.net/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif (http://www.chempoint.com/products/catalog/hexion/hexion-performance-adhesives/cascophen-prf-resin)

Mo 'Poxy
03-03-2017, 10:30 PM
oh also if you get epoxy on your skin the best way to clean up before it hardens is Vinegar, youll stink but it's very non toxic! :D

Long sleeve shirt and disposable latex gloves work fer me. The few times I get a little poxy on my wrist Permatex/NAPA Orange Pumice hand cleaner is my go-to. The pumice grit kinda scrubs the soft poxy away without solvent. The orange flavor tastes better than the non-flavored.

Sometimes I just let it cure then peel it off of my skin. It does not stick well to skin due to oils but it sticks really well to hair.

peb
03-04-2017, 07:46 PM
I dont consider myself crazy for not trying an epoxy alternative. I do consider myself crazy for building a boat.

SMARTINSEN
03-04-2017, 10:07 PM
I'm using DAP Poly Pro on the skiff, it says right on the front good for above or below the waterline. Must be OK. Using epoxy for coating the bottom, fillets, and some fairing.
I'm looking forward to hearing more about Eco-Poxy as I'd like to go that way once my supply of WEST is done.
http://stevebrookman.com/Dap.jpg

So is this anything much different than using 5200, which is also a polyurethane adhesive? Is the spec similar?

SBrookman
03-05-2017, 06:28 AM
The specs seem similar, time will tell how it holds up. I'm not aware of anyone having issues using it. I figure using it on a skiff is an OK test.

One thing is certain the price is less than a third for 5200.

Reynard38
03-05-2017, 09:16 AM
When I go to work I transform 1000 gallons per hour of kerosene into thrust and noise. I don't worry too much about a bit of epoxy on my off days.
The Chart above is very informative. I try to use T3 when I can as the cleanup is much easier.

Daniel Noyes
03-05-2017, 01:18 PM
Perhaps what you need is "poor mans fibreglass", see this instructable (http://www.instructables.com/id/Poor-Mans-Fiberglass-make-nearly-anything-weatherp/). Basically just cloth and titebond. They use it over polystyrene which is a whole other environmental can of worms.

I guess the traditional alternative is paint and canvas which I have used previously to waterproof and protect the chines of a tiny dinghy. Very effective. Some people have used this as a fibreglass alternative over the hull. Just an old bed sheet and some paint.

Guess I should clarify a bit, I'm not looking for a "cheap" epoxy alternative, I have been building boats for over 20 years now and have worked at a couple 100+year old boat shops before hanging out my own shingle...

the quest is for the Ultimate small boat, I have already gone to the lengths of sourcing locally cut wide pine and white oak in place of Ply wood for the construction of the bulk of the Historically significant hull I am building and the small amount of marine Ply I am using I have made sure to go with Made in America Marine Fir for it's superior rot resistance and strength for a given thickness... I am simply looking for a superior way of sheathing the bottom of this hull without the use of toxic... or as toxic chemicals, the joy of the build is as much a product of using the finest materials as it is not dealing with Epoxy Goo (something I have worked with for decades)

The idea you mention of using an alternative Fabric is intriguing, I have worked with Dynel designed for sheathing and have had some experience with more exotic fabrics like Kevlar... these may be posabilities for this build I will be eager to explore.

I'm also liking the repairability of TIII as it will not require a damaged area to be completely dry on application... the quest continues for the superior small craft!

Daniel Noyes
03-05-2017, 01:25 PM
When I go to work I transform 1000 gallons per hour of kerosene into thrust and noise. I don't worry too much about a bit of epoxy on my off days.
The Chart above is very informative. I try to use T3 when I can as the cleanup is much easier.

hmmmm interesting perspective...

Got to agree on the ease of cleanup so true, and I should be able to reuse brushes easily, another savings for the environment.

Gib Etheridge
03-05-2017, 01:40 PM
A friend covered the roof of his plywood truck canopy with plastic widow screen bedded in latex paint. I thought it would last for a year or so, but many years later it was still in excellent condition. It was never under shelter or repainted.

hnash53
03-06-2017, 01:32 PM
Gib this is really the impetus for my question... has anyone tried using TIII like an epoxy with a fiber reinforcement... ?

I got out in the shop this morn and wetted out a piece of Fiberglass tape on a scrap of ply, it wet out very nicely, guess I'll see how it dries by 2morrow morning...

+1 on the Titebond 3. I am building a Mayfly 16 using Titebond 3 in place of epoxy. I have coated the side planks and bulkheads and transom in Titebond 3 and am awaiting warmer/dryer temps here on the Oregon coast to finally put this baby together. The entire boat will be encapsulated in TB3... as is often done using epoxy. I have also made Titebond3 "fillets" that dry as hard and strong as I've seen epoxy. I've worked with both epoxy and TB3, and the TB3 fillets appear to be very, very strong. I've used TB3 with canvas (in place of fiberglass) and it wets out nicely, though not clear like epoxy. TB3 dries with a brown color. Since I will prime and paint once assembled, the TB3 should remain sound and never even "see" the water... but if it does, it's waterproof, and my boat will never stay in the water and will always be covered, etc etc etc... commonsense care.

There is this link to a Duckworks site featuring Ken Simpson, a boat designer. Ken has a "Waterproofing Tutorial" and a "Tape and Glue Process" that inspired me to undertake this TB3 project. Anyone considering using TB3 as your adhesive might want to check out Ken's site. Here's the link: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/simpson/index.htm

The TB3 fillets that I have used have been made with wood flour... basically coarse sanding dust. Again, I am waiting for warmer, dryer weather. We've had 30+ inches of rain since Jan 1... and about 20 inches from T-giving to Dec 31. Ugh.

skaraborgcraft
03-07-2017, 01:47 AM
You could use jute/hessian material covered in pitch if you want to go "organic", its the usual underlayer before copper sheathing. Slightly more aromatic than some other goos.

Daniel Noyes
03-07-2017, 01:16 PM
+1 on the Titebond 3. I am building a Mayfly 16 using Titebond 3 in place of epoxy. I have coated the side planks and bulkheads and transom in Titebond 3 and am awaiting warmer/dryer temps here on the Oregon coast to finally put this baby together. The entire boat will be encapsulated in TB3... as is often done using epoxy. I have also made Titebond3 "fillets" that dry as hard and strong as I've seen epoxy. I've worked with both epoxy and TB3, and the TB3 fillets appear to be very, very strong. I've used TB3 with canvas (in place of fiberglass) and it wets out nicely, though not clear like epoxy. TB3 dries with a brown color. Since I will prime and paint once assembled, the TB3 should remain sound and never even "see" the water... but if it does, it's waterproof, and my boat will never stay in the water and will always be covered, etc etc etc... commonsense care.

There is this link to a Duckworks site featuring Ken Simpson, a boat designer. Ken has a "Waterproofing Tutorial" and a "Tape and Glue Process" that inspired me to undertake this TB3 project. Anyone considering using TB3 as your adhesive might want to check out Ken's site. Here's the link: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/simpson/index.htm

The TB3 fillets that I have used have been made with wood flour... basically coarse sanding dust. Again, I am waiting for warmer, dryer weather. We've had 30+ inches of rain since Jan 1... and about 20 inches from T-giving to Dec 31. Ugh.

hmmm interesting... please let us know how this works out. I am not encapsulating with TIII it will simply be an outer sheathing, I'm going traditional finish on the inside.

Daniel Noyes
03-07-2017, 01:17 PM
You could use jute/hessian material covered in pitch if you want to go "organic", its the usual underlayer before copper sheathing. Slightly more aromatic than some other goos.

temptation thy name is Jute! ... I do hope to employ some pine tar in this build, so close but no cigar.... definitely much better than a toxic goo soup.

GordC
03-08-2017, 04:05 PM
Doesn't rowing emit carbon - CO2?


Just kidding. :D

I think the gasses created during the rowing process are purely diet based.